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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3700</B></TD></TR>
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<TD vAlign=top width="10%">Date: </TD>
<TD>2/19/01 1:59:50 AM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, February 19 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3700<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)<BR>Re: Indefinite life span<BR>Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR>Re: Darrian names?<BR>Yres info<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR>Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright<BR>Re: Darrian Names<BR>RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR>Annual War of 1812 debate (was: Ship habitability)<BR>Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR>Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)<BR>RE: Interesting spots to visit<BR>Re : Indefinite life span<BR>Re : Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)<BR>Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.<BR>RE: Indefinite life span<BR>RE: Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium<BR>RE: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>RE: I'm running a campaign...<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>RE: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR>Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:01:30 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; BTW, does anyone know the origins of the word "anagathic"?&nbsp; I'm just <BR>&gt; curious.&nbsp; Did it come from a sci-fi novel, or what?<BR><BR>I think it came from the first (in terms of internal chronology, not<BR>publishing order) of James Blish's "Cities in Flight" books. I can;t<BR>recall the title though... :-(<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:04:18 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Indefinite life span<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; P.S.&nbsp; If you can find an unexpuurgerated version of Gulliver's Travels, it's <BR>&gt; well worth your time.&nbsp; It is not a kiddie story by any stretch.<BR><BR>I read it back in Junior High. Among other things, anyone reading it<BR>will find out that "yahoo" is one *hell* of an insult. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:06:11 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Larsen (aka Mr. Whipsnade) wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you so much for filling in for my spotty memory.&nbsp; I fear my<BR>&gt;&gt;little grey cells are retiring well before the rest of my body. (sigh)&nbsp; The<BR>&gt;&gt;title "Flashing Blades" didn't ring a bell with me though.&nbsp; Of course it<BR>&gt; has<BR>&gt;&gt;been 20+ years and there is my aforementioned weary grey cells.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Are you thinking of, perhaps, "En Garde"? I've only heard mention of it,<BR>&gt; I've never seen it or held it or anything, but it seems to be pretty close<BR>&gt; to what you're describing.<BR><BR>I've got a copy somewhere in my gaming stuff. Back when it was new, I<BR>gave a copy as a Christmas present to a person in my D&amp;D campaign who<BR>was a fencer. She was rather pleased with the present.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:45:51 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Darrian names?<BR><BR>From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "I have a spreadsheet that generates names for 13 different Trav<BR>languages..."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "I can send it to you if you are interested."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Simpson,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; If it's not too much of a bother, may I have a copy also?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:47:55 EST<BR>From: JimVassila@aol.com<BR>Subject: Yres info<BR><BR>&gt; Is there any "interesting" information about Yres?<BR>&gt; I've got GURPS Behind the Claw, so I have basic details, but nothing<BR>&gt; really from any non-GURPS sources. <BR><BR>Yres &amp; Menorb were the site of the Battle of Two Suns which occured in 1084 <BR>at the end of the Fourth Frontier War, also called the False War. Supposedly <BR>there's still a lot of debris floating around the battlefield, and it's a bit <BR>of a traffic hazard. Maps designate it as a dangerous area. Info from Adv 1: <BR>The Kinunir, and Supp 8: Library Data (A-M).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:58:59 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>Terry Carlino wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; There's got to be some kind of legal framework or Trade and Commerce would<BR>&gt; grind to a halt.<BR><BR>Which is why I have suggested a Trade-oriented Uniform Commercial<BR>Code approach amongst significant trading worlds.&nbsp; It makes business<BR>predictable, therefore, less costly.&nbsp; Personal freedoms and liberties,<BR>big deal.&nbsp; Getting paid, risk of loss issues, terms of trade, contracts,<BR>dispute arbitration: these things get handled efficiently else business suffers.<BR><BR>Unpredictable and slow court systems would hurt megacorps more than<BR>help them.&nbsp; A predictable system that allows them to calculate costs<BR>and benefits is vital.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; I never said it was "valid" only that it happened.<BR><BR>Ahem.&nbsp; Yes you did.&nbsp; It's right there.&nbsp; Notice the last three words<BR>of your text that I quoted.<BR><BR>&gt; Some cases are tremendously complex even when the core matter is<BR>&gt; extremely simple. And some things can be made more complex if you have<BR>&gt; enough money to spend.<BR><BR>Only if the Court tolerates it.<BR><BR>&gt; Exactly, and if the noble in charge believes the best way to handle the case<BR>&gt; is to make it drag on then it will.<BR><BR>Then it isn't the fault of the courts or legal system, is it?<BR><BR>If it's all at a noble's whim, as you say below, is it really a<BR>'system' at all?&nbsp; I think not.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:54:14 -0500<BR>From: "Chris Seamans" &lt;semo@pil.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>Larsen (aka Mr. Whipsnade) wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you, sir.&nbsp; It is "En Garde".&nbsp; I knew the kind members of this<BR>&gt;list would help me rectify my cranial-rectal inversion.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; No problem. Glad to be of service.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The game was rather fast playing.&nbsp; Friends of mine would actually take<BR>&gt;their turns while we ate lunch.&nbsp; Also thanks to it, the enrollment in the<BR>&gt;club sport of fencing had an incredible jump for a semester.&nbsp; They actually<BR>&gt;had to split up the classes due to a lack of foils.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Like I said, I've never actually seen it, but I remember hearing of it when<BR>I was younger, and it has been mentioned on the list many times since I've<BR>been on.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Being young idiots, we continually tried to out do one another with<BR>&gt;overly ornate and flowery modes of address, while attempting to slip sly<BR>&gt;digs and jibes in amongst the flummery.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Oddly enough, that's exactly what some members of the list were<BR>&gt;suspicious of me doing at first;&nbsp; raising the possibility that I was<BR>playing<BR>&gt;the same "courteous insult" game here too.&nbsp; i would like to assure them<BR>&gt;again that I am not.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Hey, doesn't bother me in the slightest! Be as formal or informal as you<BR>like -- doesn't bother me. Although, if you'd like, you can call me Chris.<BR>That's what I usually go by. There are already too many people named "Mr.<BR>Seamans" in my family.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:00:25 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright<BR><BR>Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; There is, since about a year or something, a *very* stupid law in<BR>&gt; Sweden...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Basically, it is illegal to have any kind of personal information about<BR>&gt; other people on a website without those persons' express permission.<BR><BR>That's not copyright law.&nbsp; It's privacy law.&nbsp; And a lot of other countries<BR>have such laws.&nbsp; The topic was copyright and my comments were<BR>limited to that issue.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:03:58 EST<BR>From: JimVassila@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Darrian Names<BR><BR>&gt;Is there a Darrian name list and/or language generator out there anywhere? <BR>&gt;Turning my storage room upside down has failed to produce my Darrians Alien <BR>&gt;Module....<BR><BR>Galactic has a darrian name list courtesy of Charles Collin.<BR>Assuming the link hasn't rotted, Galactic can be download from:<BR>http://www.geocities.com/jimvassila<BR>The location of the darrian names file within the gal24.zip archive is:<BR>data\names\darrian.dat<BR><BR>Or if that's too much bother, just email me privately, and I'll send you a <BR>copy of the names list... -Jim<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:07:45 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>From: "Chris Seamans" &lt;semo@pil.net&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Although, if you'd like, you can call me Chris.&nbsp; That's what I usually <BR>go by."<BR><BR><BR>Chris,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Why, thank you very much.&nbsp; Larsen, or Bill, or Whipsnade, which ever <BR>you prefer to type is prefectly alright with me too.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:52:44 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Annual War of 1812 debate (was: Ship habitability)<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 16:08, Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On 19 Feb 2001, at 3:04, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; the infant USN was mainly overwhelmed rather than out fought.&nbsp; I can't think<BR>&gt; &gt; of a more vocal booster of the RN then WSC; however his mother was American.<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; 8^)<BR><BR>&gt; IIRC earlier on the US ships overwhelmed the RN ships by being bigger and<BR>&gt; newer, and later when the British built two-deck frigates to match (and<BR>&gt; brought their naval spending back up) the US ships had all kinds of trouble.<BR><BR>My, how time flies. I had no idea it was time for the annual War of 1812 <BR>debate :*&gt;<BR><BR>Actually this is quite On Topic for Traveller, its a classic example of <BR>commerce warfare and its strategic lessons are likely to be as valid in the <BR>56th Century as they are now.<BR><BR>Before the war the USN and RN had built two very different fleets. The <BR>British were a maritime Empire, dependent on control of the sea for its very <BR>survival. To meet this role the RN had built a large fleet of cost effective <BR>vessels to protect its trade routes (the ubiquitous 32 and 36 gun single <BR>deck frigates). Due to the shear scale of the area to be covered, it was <BR>forced to sacrifice individual excellance in their designs in order to get <BR>sufficent vessels to do the job (quantity over quality).<BR><BR>The Americans on the other hand had no significant maritime interests to <BR>protect. After the American Revolution the US had been exluded from the <BR>British trade system and as a consequence it maritime trade had suffered <BR>a disasterous downturn (it was only just starting to recover before the war). <BR>Therefore the USN had no need to control the sea, they had no extensive <BR>trade routes to protect and no overseas posestions to patrol. Consequently <BR>the US could afford to opt for individual excellance in its ship designs and <BR>built large 50 gun double deck frigates (quality over quantity).<BR><BR>Unsurprisingly, when these USN "monster frigates" came to battle the RNs <BR>32 and 36 gunners, they totally dominated them. However, as might be <BR>expected the RN did not sit idly by and let this situation continue. They <BR>built their own 50 gun monsters (interestingly the plans for these vessels <BR>date from 1810, but the pressures of the war against the French had <BR>delayed their contruction). They then imposed a blockade of the US ports. <BR>This ment that the USN monsters could not get out of port with out a <BR>battle, which (win or lose) was guaranteed to inflict sufficent damage on the <BR>US ships to prevent them from making effective commerce raiders. <BR>Therefore, the USN ships choose not to leave port.<BR><BR>ObTrav: This is the classic form of commerce warfare, its likely still valid in <BR>the 3rd Imperium.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:38:49 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR><BR>Gregory Carl Kettler wrote :<BR>&gt; On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, MJ Dougherty wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; ... has everyone for gotten that it's February? It's TIME, people!<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Or is the Annual Near-C-Pirates/Hiroshima Morality tag-team flamefest<BR>&gt; &gt; postponed this year?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; (Checks history book).&nbsp; No, sorry, I don't know anything about the time<BR>&gt; some pirates hit Hiroshima with a Near-C rock, so I can't comment on the<BR>&gt; morality of it.<BR><BR>Hmm......., I hereby claim the name Near-C for future use either as a<BR>strategic weapons company or an industrial rock band. If there's not already<BR>a trade-mark on the phrase<BR>"Near-C Rocks!"&nbsp; (including the apostrophe)<BR><BR>The band will be inordinately proud of the time they got to gig with the<BR>Bulldaggers and Hiroshima sat in on their set.<BR><BR>The strategic weapons company will be equally annoyed of the piratical<BR>actions of Ron Post, because he never bothers to pay for the weapons he uses<BR>from the company. Some marketing chizz thought that being able to say<BR>"Near-C Rocks, The Choice of Ron Post" would be worth the cost of giving Ron<BR>free rocks....<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:35:19 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)<BR><BR>On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>&gt; There are some possibily applicable datapoint available. there have<BR>&gt; been a number of folks revived from "extreme hypothermia" in the last<BR>&gt; 50 years. And some of the more recent cases were *so* extreme, that<BR>&gt; doctors did research and now *deliberately* induce that sort of "total<BR>&gt; shutdown" to have more time for performimg certain types of surgery.<BR><BR>Do you have any references? I am very interested in reading them.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>+++++++++[&gt;+++++++++&lt;-]&gt;-.&lt;+++++[&gt;+++&lt;-]++&gt;++.&lt;++[&gt;++++&lt;-]+&gt;+.&lt;++[&gt;----<BR>&lt;-]&gt;-.&gt;+++[&gt;++++++++++&lt;-]++&gt;++pare@iki.fi&lt;+[&gt;++++&lt;-]&gt;+.-&gt;+[&gt;++++[&lt;&lt;---&gt;<BR>&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;.&gt;&gt;+++++++[&lt;++++++++++&gt;-]++++[&lt;+++++&gt;-]&lt;-.&gt;[-]&gt;+++[&gt;++[&lt;&lt;&lt;----&gt;&gt;<BR>&lt;&gt;&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;&lt;.+.&gt;[-]++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;.++.[-]&gt;[-]++++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;++.&gt;&gt;++[&gt;++[&gt;-&lt;-]&lt;--]<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:46:59 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Interesting spots to visit<BR><BR>Mark Urbin wrote<BR>&gt; Shaggy3D types out with at best, two fingers:<BR>&gt; &gt; Between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv you say?? Man,I'm gonna buy my ticket<BR>&gt; &gt; first thing tomorrow morning!! Oh yeah,I gotta see that,can't wait<BR>&gt; &gt; ,oh yeah!!Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Yea right.&nbsp; Sheesh.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This is an international mailing list with a lot of members in the high<BR>&gt; tech business.<BR>&gt; Tel Aviv is the home to a lot of high tech companies.&nbsp; There is a lot of<BR>&gt; business travel there, even with the occasional car bomb going off.<BR><BR>Just to prove the point, I was attending a wedding reception this Saturday<BR>(for a pair of gamers, who started dating during a game of TNE, BTW) where a<BR>friend of mine (another gamer) who had just flown in from Taiwan for the<BR>wedding was talking about how damn difficult it was to get back into Israel<BR>once you'd been to the Lebanon...<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:23:13 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Indefinite life span<BR><BR>Paul Drye wrote :-<BR>&gt; The key point is that accidents are essentially random, so a large<BR>&gt; enough group has a "half-life".<BR>I thought that life expectancy was just that - the age at which 50% of a<BR>given cohort are still alive. The weighting given by degenerative<BR>disease/ageing etc. disappears into curves like :-<BR><BR>N(t) = N(0).(1 - exp(-k/t)), t &gt; 0<BR><BR>At some arbitrarily large t, N(t) should be regarded as zero for the<BR>purposes of life expectancy modelling.<BR><BR>I get 804 years, assuming an accident rate of 1/2500 per year (5% of a death<BR>rate of 8/1000, which is near the First World average).<BR><BR>Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-<BR>&gt; These people who feverishly cling to life long past any ability to<BR>&gt; enjoy or participate it in amaze me.&nbsp; They reduce themselves to<BR>&gt; potted plants; pruned, weeded, fed, and occasionally parked in the<BR>&gt; sun, and have none of the interactions that make us human.<BR>Never underestimate the power of secondary gain for the person's next of<BR>kin, or the private nursing or medical staff.<BR><BR>In any case, people that sick don't tend not to last all that long.<BR>Heart failure and end-stage dementia (or emphysema) are as deadly as<BR>disseminated malignancy (five year survival &lt; 20%).<BR><BR>People often get very unwell and are told that they can be supported for a<BR>long time. Doctors are guilty of promoting unrealistic expectations ; it is<BR>very difficult not to offer hope in a hopeless situation.<BR><BR>The profession's emphasis today seems to be on 'cure' rather than 'care',<BR>which is a shame given that many treatments are essentially palliative in<BR>nature.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR>(with apologies for post length)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:23:18 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)<BR><BR>Roger Sanger wrote :-<BR>&gt; Though, if enough people take a risk, then demographic statistical<BR>&gt; analysis such as that used to compare the effects of diet between<BR>&gt; different cultures can be utilized to measure the results -- but<BR>&gt; that's not how the approval process of the FDA works.&nbsp; :-(<BR>The process from development of compound, through baseline cell culture and<BR>animal experiments, to limited and then post marketing surveillance, takes<BR>an average of 15 years.<BR><BR>The concern of the regulatory authorities is that the treatment is somewhat<BR>safer than the disease. In the case of HIV/AIDS, this wouldn't be difficult<BR>to demonstrate with just about any agent. The basic threshold for a drug to<BR>be approved for human use is a major adverse reaction roughly once every<BR>20-50,000 administrations.<BR><BR>In the current environment of zero-risk stupidity, I am sure that this may<BR>have to be revised for political reasons &lt;sigh&gt;.<BR><BR>&gt; This is one example of how red tape can kill.<BR>Would you prefer some of the drugs that haven't been approved go on the<BR>market? I've heard of some great ones that were just safe enough to be<BR>approved for *veterinary* use...<BR><BR>&gt; DHEA has been touted as being equally effective as caloric<BR>&gt; restriction, but that is not the drug to which I was referring.<BR>Dehydroepiandrosterone?<BR>What a joke.<BR><BR>I'll ask again :-<BR>Roger, what is the agent or agents you are referring to?<BR>If you are under a legally binding non-disclosure agreement, then just say<BR>so. Even then, the code names of the pilot compounds, or just the<BR>investigating company should be enough for me to follow the line of<BR>research.<BR><BR>On telomeres :-<BR>&gt; I haven't hear that.&nbsp; Therefore, I'd be interested in reading up on<BR>&gt; it.&nbsp; Please tell us your references..<BR>Hit 'Medline' (PubMed), 'Nature' and 'Science'. You should be able to find<BR>dozens.<BR><BR>&gt; BTW, does anyone know the origins of the word "anagathic"?&nbsp; I'm just<BR>&gt; curious.&nbsp; Did it come from a sci-fi novel, or what?<BR>Leonard Erickson (among others) may be able to correct me on this.<BR>Check E.C. Tubb's 'Dumarest' series.<BR><BR>IIRC, 'anti-agatics' were the name James Blish gave to the longevity<BR>compounds in the 'Cities In Flight' series.<BR><BR>Cue the Greek/Latin scholars...<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:23:22 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.<BR><BR>Roger Sanger wrote :-<BR>&gt; Is there a temperature at which electrical activity stops as well?<BR>At a core temperature of 20 degrees C, there is no measureable elctrical<BR>activity in the human brain. Happens all the time with cardiopulmonary<BR>bypass.<BR><BR>Larson Whipsnade wrote :-<BR>&gt; My question to you concerns our hypothetical corpsicle's personality;<BR>&gt; the part of hin that makes him who he is.<BR>You're right ; the cellular basis of personality and consciousness are<BR>cutting edge stuff. Heck, even the philosophers are interested in the<BR>problem again &lt;g&gt;.<BR><BR>The case of Phineas Gage that you mention later in your post is one of the<BR>many empirical observations that has helped the development of clinical<BR>neurology.<BR><BR>He had the connections to his frontal lobes grossly damaged, and injury to<BR>his amygdala ; so he developed the typical volatile personality seen with<BR>damage of this sort.<BR><BR>We know what about one third of the cerebral cortex is associated with, as<BR>well as most of the cerebellum, limbic areas, hypothalamus and brain stem.<BR>The advent of functional imaging (e.g. SPECT/PET/fMR) will help tease out<BR>what the rest of the cerebrum is for.<BR><BR>The big challenge is working out how this higher level of order emerges from<BR>the connections between neurons. On average, each neuron has 1000 synapses.<BR>There are 10^11 neurons in the average human brain. The problem is, ahem,<BR>complex.<BR><BR>&gt; Given the ability to "freeze" our low berth passenger without<BR>&gt; damaging his cells, or "hardware", could you state your opinion as to<BR>&gt; whether the process might upset his "software", or neural-electrical<BR>activity?<BR>None, if it's done properly - the brain is stopped at clock cycle x and<BR>resumes at x+1 once thawed.<BR><BR>However, never underestimate the power of events to cause psychological<BR>trauma (e.g. awareness during anaesthesia, inadequate pain relief during<BR>procedures, etc. etc.)<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:45:35 -0000<BR>From: "Antony Farrell" &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Indefinite life span<BR><BR>A thought<BR>The longer the natural life span the less likely a natural death. Should be<BR>a worry for those on anagathics, though I always liked the side effect table<BR>in TNE.<BR><BR>Antony<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:45:38 -0000<BR>From: "Antony Farrell" &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E. Berry<BR>Sent: Sunday, 18 February 2001 10:41 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium<BR><BR><BR>At 06:31 PM 2/18/2001, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Sorry to post this to the list but I have one on Ebay that I'm looking to<BR>&gt;get rid of and I've had no bids. Maybe cause I did the listing very<BR>quickly.<BR>&gt;I got it from an online used game dealer and I'm looking to get my money<BR>&gt;back that's why the higher starting bid. Thanks.<BR><BR>Good luck.&nbsp; "Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium" is one of the great<BR>woofers of Traveller.<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR><BR><BR>I don't know, apart from being riddled with errors and having very few of<BR>the ships illustrated (by the way what is the vessel on the cover) I found<BR>the book very useful for doing FFS1 redesigns for my Banners Pocket Empire<BR>campaign.<BR><BR>Antony<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:45:39 -0000<BR>From: "Antony Farrell" &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Rupert Boleyn<BR>Sent: Monday, 19 February 2001 3:19 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On 18 Feb 2001, at 18:26, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Imagine a gigawatt (or more!) maser beam with a diameter of 100 meters<BR>&gt; or more sweeping across an area suspected of hiding guerillas. Trees<BR>&gt; exploding into sharpnel, bodies exploding like an egg in a microwave.<BR><BR>Not to mention the fun to be had from all those nice bits of metal heating<BR>up,<BR>arcing, and flying around.<BR><BR>&gt; Truly a "terror weapon"!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; FWIW, I get around 400 kW/m^2 as the power density for such a beam.<BR>&gt; Even if that's not enough for the effects I described above, I suspect<BR>&gt; that it'd more than enough to be lethal, even if it takes a while to die.<BR><BR>IIRc it only takes a few degrees of 'instant' temperature rise to coagulate<BR>quite a few of the protiens found in a person.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>Any ideas what effect this would have on a starship in space?<BR><BR>Antony<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:45:37 -0000<BR>From: "Antony Farrell" &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: I'm running a campaign...<BR><BR>You could also use the famous Annic Nova for this. A ghost ship if ever<BR>their was.<BR>I use a vessel of this type as a training vessel in my Alston League Navy,<BR>follow the links through the Banners Sector/Alston League Order of Battle<BR>from<BR>www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran<BR><BR>I have a coloured in version of the ship scanned from Double Adventure 1<BR><BR>Antony<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:05:19 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>Tim Little wrote :-<BR>&gt; Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; IIRc it only takes a few degrees of 'instant' temperature rise to<BR>&gt;&gt; coagulate quite a few of the protiens found in a person.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 400 kW/m^2 probably translates to about 1 kW/kg in a person.&nbsp; That's<BR>&gt; enough to raise their average temperature by about 1 K per 4 seconds.<BR><BR>Unconscious within 16 seconds (core to 41 C), fitting shortly thereafter.<BR>The highest core temperature that anyone has survived intact is 46.5 C (heat<BR>stroke). He was hospitalised for 3 weeks.<BR><BR>Skin will die above 48 C. Proteins irreversibly denature above 55 C.<BR><BR>The primary cause of death will be either burns and subsequent sepsis or<BR>multi-organ failure (liver, brain, and kidney).<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:55:08 -0600<BR>From: "Matthew W. Helton" &lt;mwhelton@cox-internet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR><BR>Waaaait just a minute: We ALL know that Hotblack's Band, Disaster Area, is<BR>the one whose audiovisual system violate many planets' strategic arms<BR>limitations treaties. All others are merely pretenders. This from Douglas<BR>Adams' Restaurant at the End of the Universe.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Frank G. Pitt<BR>Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 1:39 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR><BR>Gregory Carl Kettler wrote :<BR>&gt; On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, MJ Dougherty wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; ... has everyone for gotten that it's February? It's TIME, people!<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Or is the Annual Near-C-Pirates/Hiroshima Morality tag-team flamefest<BR>&gt; &gt; postponed this year?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; (Checks history book).&nbsp; No, sorry, I don't know anything about the time<BR>&gt; some pirates hit Hiroshima with a Near-C rock, so I can't comment on the<BR>&gt; morality of it.<BR><BR>Hmm......., I hereby claim the name Near-C for future use either as a<BR>strategic weapons company or an industrial rock band. If there's not already<BR>a trade-mark on the phrase<BR>"Near-C Rocks!"&nbsp; (including the apostrophe)<BR><BR>The band will be inordinately proud of the time they got to gig with the<BR>Bulldaggers and Hiroshima sat in on their set.<BR><BR>The strategic weapons company will be equally annoyed of the piratical<BR>actions of Ron Post, because he never bothers to pay for the weapons he uses<BR>from the company. Some marketing chizz thought that being able to say<BR>"Near-C Rocks, The Choice of Ron Post" would be worth the cost of giving Ron<BR>free rocks....<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:49:20 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.<BR><BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "None, if it's done properly - the brain is stopped at clock cycle x <BR>and resumes at x+1 once thawed.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; However, never underestimate the power of events to cause psychological <BR>trauma (e.g. awareness during anaesthesia, inadequate pain relief during <BR>procedures, etc. etc.)"<BR><BR><BR>Mr. O'Connor,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you sir for your usual high quality answer to my question.&nbsp; It <BR>was clear, unstandable to laymen, and yet informative.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I don't know what it is you actually do for a career, but I do hope <BR>that it utilizes your ability to make detailed technical information more <BR>widely understood.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; My thanks again.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3700<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xb02.mx.aol.com (rly-xb02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.103]) by air-xb05.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:59:50 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xb02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:59:24 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id EAA19016;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:53:37 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:49:54 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id EAA18940<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:49:53 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:49:53 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102190949.EAA18940@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3700<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, February 19 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3701<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Web Site Refurbishment<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re : Indefinite life span<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3690<BR>Re: OT 'En Garde'<BR>RE: TGOOs<BR>RE: TGOOs<BR>Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)<BR>Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.<BR>Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)<BR>RE: TGOOs<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: OT 'En Garde'<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re : Indefinite life span<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:01:48 -0000<BR>From: "Antony Farrell" &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Web Site Refurbishment<BR><BR>It has reached that time when I give my web site its annual overhaul. I<BR>would welcome any helpful suggestions about this, and any problems that<BR>people have had with the site.<BR><BR>You can check out its current form at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran<BR><BR><BR>Antony<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:17:14 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>The Marines and the Air Force are also both all-volunteer<BR>organizations.&nbsp; Historically, only the Army has had the draft.<BR><BR>The Marines consider themselve an elite, so I'm not sure they would<BR>accept any reluctant warriors ...<BR><BR>- --- Rupert Boleyn &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On 18 Feb 2001, at 17:33, Charles R Hensley wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Gerry Harris wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;The U.S. Navy has always been an all-volunteer force.&nbsp; When you<BR>&gt; were<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;drafted, you were drafted into the Army, nothing else.&nbsp; You had to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;voluntarily go into the Navy.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;This isn't 18th century Britain with its press gangs, fella.<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; I believe that the draft during WW2 was an all-service draft. <BR>&gt; During<BR>&gt; &gt; Vietanm, the Navy acted as a dodge to the draft, ie: someone<BR>&gt; drafted<BR>&gt; &gt; into the army could get out of it if another service accepted him<BR>&gt; before<BR>&gt; &gt; his appear date.&nbsp; Therefore the Navy had a larger number of<BR>&gt; "volunteers"<BR>&gt; &gt; who otherwise would not have volunteered for service at all.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Was that also the case with the Marines? Or were their voluteers<BR>&gt; simply mad?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 <BR>a year!&nbsp; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:17:46 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 18 Feb 2001, at 19:51, Peter Newman wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt; wrote<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; What do the E-1, etc mean? I realise that they're the numerical names for<BR>&gt; &gt; enlisted ranks, but I have no idea what they mean in real terms. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Might I suggest checking your copy of High Guard or MT's expanded<BR>&gt; character generation rules which name all the ranks in Traveller<BR>&gt; terms. If you're asking what they mean in the _US_ military I'm<BR>&gt; sure someone will answer that or post a link.<BR><BR>That was what I was after, and I've been answered, thankyou.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:28:14 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>&gt; Unconscious within 16 seconds (core to 41 C), fitting shortly thereafter.<BR><BR>I suspect that the brain might be close to the first affected organ.<BR>After all, the head is likely to be the closest part of the body to an<BR>(overhead) orbital maser.&nbsp; Temperature rise might be even faster there<BR>than elsewhere -- and my (non-medical) guess would be that it is also<BR>where temperature rises have the greatest effect.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Skin will die above 48 C. Proteins irreversibly denature above 55 C.<BR><BR>Skin would probably take a lot of the energy.&nbsp; I don't know what the<BR>attenuation depth in flesh for atmosphere-penetrating microwaves is.<BR>Strangely, that data is lacking from my references.&nbsp; I understand that<BR>domestic microwaves are of a frequency that would be absorbed by the<BR>atmosphere over these sorts of distances and are particularly well<BR>absorbed by liquid water, so I can't really extrapolate from what's<BR>known of them to orbital maser weapons.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:31:31 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Indefinite life span<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 19:23, Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; The profession's emphasis today seems to be on 'cure' rather than 'care',<BR>&gt; which is a shame given that many treatments are essentially palliative in<BR>&gt; nature.<BR><BR>Probably spurred on by people who don't want to hear that condition 'x' can't <BR>be cured, and that all that can be done is to relieve the symptoms.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:32:30 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>USN Ranks<BR><BR>E-1&nbsp; Seaman (Airman, Fireman, Constructionman) Recruit<BR>E-2&nbsp; Seaman (Airman, Fireman, Constructionman) Apprentice<BR>E-3&nbsp; Seaman (Airman, Fireman, Constructionman)<BR><BR>E-4&nbsp; Petty Officer Third Class<BR>E-5&nbsp; Petty Officer Second Class<BR>E-6&nbsp; Petty Officer First Class<BR><BR>E-7&nbsp; Chief Petty Officer<BR>E-8&nbsp; Senior Chief Petty Officer<BR>E-9&nbsp; Master Chief Petty Officer<BR><BR>E-4 and above are considered non-commissioned officers.&nbsp; E-7 through<BR>E-9, the chief petty officers, wear uniforms similar to commissioned<BR>officers, and maintain their own berthing and messing facilities.<BR><BR>Petty officers are occassionally addressed by their rate.&nbsp; For example,<BR>I'm a Journalist (JO) First Class in the U.S. Naval Reserve.&nbsp; I'm often<BR>simply addressed as JO1 (Jay-Oh-One).&nbsp; Chiefs are always addressed as<BR>"Chief," senior chiefs as either "Senior" or "Senior Chief" and master<BR>chiefs are -always- referred to as "Master Chief."<BR><BR>To confuse things a little, boatswain's mates are sometimes simply<BR>called "boats" and gunner's mates "guns."<BR><BR>- -- Gerry Harris (9 years active - 4.5 on USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN<BR>69) and four years reserves).<BR><BR>- --- Rupert Boleyn &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On 19 Feb 2001, at 2:37, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Mr. Boleyn,<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Every berthing set-up I've heard about as the E-1 to E-6 ranks<BR>&gt; living in<BR>&gt; &gt; one compartment, E-7 thru E-9 living in another, and the officers<BR>&gt; living<BR>&gt; &gt; staterooms either doubled up, or sometimes in 4s' or 6's.&nbsp; Senior<BR>&gt; Officers<BR>&gt; &gt; "usually get their own staterooms, but this will vary greatly<BR>&gt; depending on the<BR>&gt; &gt; type of ship.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; What do the E-1, etc mean? I realise that they're the numerical names<BR>&gt; for <BR>&gt; enlisted ranks, but I have no idea what they mean in real terms.<BR>&gt; Could you <BR>&gt; please tell me what their titles are, and at what point you'd be an<BR>&gt; NCO. I was <BR>&gt; in the NZ Army, and we use a British style rank structure, with all<BR>&gt; ranks <BR>&gt; named, not numbered (and I can't remember our Naval enlisted ranks,<BR>&gt; anyway).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Carriers might give captains and admirals rather nice<BR>&gt; quarters; think 1 br<BR>&gt; &gt; flats, abd many other officer's single staterroms, but on SSN's<BR>&gt; (where space is<BR>&gt; &gt; at an extreme premium) only the CO will get to bunk alone. <BR>&gt; Everyone else is<BR>&gt; &gt; crammed in.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I can understand that on a sub, but on a cruiser?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The prevailing US military culture values "Toys before Boys".<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Here it seems to be just 'hanging on to what we've got', as the pay,<BR>&gt; conditions <BR>&gt; and gear all suck. This may be getting better in the next few years,<BR>&gt; for the <BR>&gt; Army, anyway.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; While US<BR>&gt; &gt; military personnel aren't treated as badly as the CIS's, the<BR>&gt; quality of life is<BR>&gt; &gt; rather low.&nbsp; It's really surprising that the retention rate isn't<BR>&gt; lower than it<BR>&gt; &gt; already is.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ours is terrible, and once the thrill of active service in East Timor<BR>&gt; wears off <BR>&gt; I expect it to get even worse - our pay, even counting all the<BR>&gt; allowances, is <BR>&gt; so much worse than that of the Aussies (even if you ignore the<BR>&gt; exchange rate) <BR>&gt; that people'll be leaving in whilesale lots. It's not hepling that<BR>&gt; the Aussie <BR>&gt; Army said they'd quite happily take our guys on, and often even give<BR>&gt; them their <BR>&gt; old rank back fairly quickly, though given the quality of some of<BR>&gt; their boys <BR>&gt; back in '92 when I was on excerise there I'm not surprised (no insult<BR>&gt; intend - <BR>&gt; we've got pur share of incompetents, too).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 <BR>a year!&nbsp; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:01:28 +1100<BR>From: Rob &lt;rhoughto@one.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>Wouldn't BD or even a vacc-suit give some protection against this?<BR><BR>Other Rob<BR><BR>Timothy Little wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Unconscious within 16 seconds (core to 41 C), fitting shortly thereafter.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I suspect that the brain might be close to the first affected organ.<BR>&gt; After all, the head is likely to be the closest part of the body to an<BR>&gt; (overhead) orbital maser.&nbsp; Temperature rise might be even faster there<BR>&gt; than elsewhere -- and my (non-medical) guess would be that it is also<BR>&gt; where temperature rises have the greatest effect.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Skin will die above 48 C. Proteins irreversibly denature above 55 C.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Skin would probably take a lot of the energy.&nbsp; I don't know what the<BR>&gt; attenuation depth in flesh for atmosphere-penetrating microwaves is.<BR>&gt; Strangely, that data is lacking from my references.&nbsp; I understand that<BR>&gt; domestic microwaves are of a frequency that would be absorbed by the<BR>&gt; atmosphere over these sorts of distances and are particularly well<BR>&gt; absorbed by liquid water, so I can't really extrapolate from what's<BR>&gt; known of them to orbital maser weapons.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>&gt; Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:02:19 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; IIRc it only takes a few degrees of 'instant' temperature rise to<BR>&gt;&gt; coagulate quite a few of the protiens found in a person.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 400 kW/m^2 probably translates to about 1 kW/kg in a person.&nbsp; That's<BR>&gt; enough to raise their average temperature by about 1 K per 4 seconds.<BR>&gt; Heating would be very uneven though, so some parts would be a lot<BR>&gt; hotter than others.&nbsp; Not a pretty picture if the beam lingers for more<BR>&gt; than a moment or two.<BR><BR>I figure they'd just sweep it along somewhat faster than you can run,<BR>given the terrain. What's the world record for the 100 meter? A bit<BR>under 10 seconds? <BR><BR>That'd be around around 2.5 K. <BR><BR>And, of course, there's something to be said for sweeping it along<BR>*slowly* as a way to "herd" the enemy.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:49:30 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3690<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; I took a short course in Atomic Demolition Munitions as a US Army<BR>&gt; Engineer LT in the early 1980s (I still keep the class on one version<BR>&gt; of my resume).&nbsp; The ADM was 1950-60s technology and "man-portable."<BR>&gt; One of their missions was dam removable (with the side effect of<BR>&gt; removing the local neighborhood).&nbsp; They were larger than what I'd<BR>&gt; consider to be man-portable.&nbsp; A more proper title might be:<BR>&gt; truck-portable or helicopter portable.&nbsp; The Army got rid of the<BR>&gt; mission in the mid-80s.<BR><BR>As I've had it explained to me "man-portable" often means "it's got<BR>enough handles to let enough men grab on to lift it and it doesn't<BR>weigh more than they can manage for 100 yards or so" :-)<BR><BR>&gt; Fortunately, I have no practical experience.<BR><BR>Well, if you *did*, you couldn't talk about it. And it'd mean the US<BR>was a lot better at hiding things than I thought.<BR><BR>BTW, I'm reminded of a guy who tried to tell some of us that the US had<BR>used a couple of tacnukes in Nam...<BR><BR>ObTrav: I don't *think* nuke demolitions violate the Imperial rules of<BR>war as long as they are used *strictly* in an engineering role. So you<BR>can't use them to breach defenes or attack trrops, but you could use<BR>them to destroy an underground complex *after* you'd captured it. Or to<BR>blast a pass thru mountains or create a harbor. <BR><BR>Taking out that dam might be a little iffy.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:57:37 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: OT 'En Garde'<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; This little gem of a game was recently published in the UK by... wait for <BR>&gt; it... 'Small Furry Creatures Press' (or they might have been 'Fuzzy...') <BR>&gt; Whatever, well worth a go. A number of my friends participate in a PBEM <BR>&gt; game, which has been extended by a variant covering the lives of their<BR>&gt; lady Loves (based on the movie 'Dangerous Liasons').<BR><BR>Are the extra rules available online?<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:16:31 -0000<BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TGOOs<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; At 10:54 AM 2/18/01 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; ???&nbsp; What the heck is a "bangpath"?&nbsp; A hyperlink?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Back when I first got on the Internet, mail was addressed using<BR>&gt; bangpaths. "Domains" didn't exist.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The secondary address in my sig dates back almost that far.&nbsp; as a<BR>&gt; bangpath addres, it'd be given as:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; ...!tektronics!reed!qiclab!leonard (I think that's right)<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>If anyone hadn't guessed, 'bang' is ancient hacker (computer expert, not<BR>cracker) slang for the exclamation mark.<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:22:04 -0000<BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TGOOs<BR><BR>Dang, sorry, just read Jeff's post where he explains bangs.<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; At 10:54 AM 2/18/01 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; ???&nbsp; What the heck is a "bangpath"?&nbsp; A hyperlink?<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Back when I first got on the Internet, mail was addressed using<BR>&gt; &gt; bangpaths. "Domains" didn't exist.<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; The secondary address in my sig dates back almost that far.&nbsp; as a<BR>&gt; &gt; bangpath addres, it'd be given as:<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; ...!tektronics!reed!qiclab!leonard (I think that's right)<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; If anyone hadn't guessed, 'bang' is ancient hacker (computer <BR>&gt; expert, not<BR>&gt; cracker) slang for the exclamation mark.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Dean<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:52:32 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)<BR><BR>Mikko Parviainen wrote :-<BR>(Referring to induced and accidental hypothermia):-<BR>&gt; Do you have any references? I am very interested in reading them.<BR><BR>There should be something on the web covering :-<BR>cardiopulmonary bypass - 'heart-lung machines'<BR>induced hypothermia for neurosurgery<BR><BR>Failing that, hit any cardiac surgery or cardiac anaesthesia or<BR>neuroanaesthesia text.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:56:11 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.<BR><BR>Larson Whipsnade wrote :-<BR>&gt; I don't know what it is you actually do for a career, but I do hope<BR>&gt; that it utilizes your ability to make detailed technical information<BR>&gt; more widely understood.<BR>Aw, shucks.<BR>I'm just a simple medical doctor with a biochem/physiology degree.<BR>My current occupation is 'slave' (oops, specialist in training).<BR><BR>When I grow up, I want to be an anaesthetist that does some intensive care<BR>work. Or is that the other way around?<BR><BR>Getting paid to stop people feeling too sore when the surgeons have at them<BR>has some appeal.<BR><BR>Now returning you to your list, already in progress...<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:08:05 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)<BR><BR>Mikko, this is a nice concise review of induced hypothermia :-<BR>http://www.nda.ox.ac.uk/wfsa/dl/html/reviews/rev001.htm<BR><BR>(historical background and why we might want to use it clinically)<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:18:43 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TGOOs<BR><BR>On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jones, Dean wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; If anyone hadn't guessed, 'bang' is ancient hacker (computer expert, not<BR>&gt; cracker) slang for the exclamation mark.<BR><BR>Ancient maybe, but not dead.&nbsp; Just a year ago I was taught that "set!" is<BR>pronounced "set-bang" in Scheme.&nbsp; And "#!" is pronounced "shebang" in<BR>Perl.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Greg Kettler<BR><BR>"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you<BR>may not actually need an explicit loop exit.&nbsp; The loop will be terminated<BR>automatically at the appropriate moment."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:44:18 +1000<BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>&gt; From: "Rupert Boleyn" <BR>&gt; On 19 Feb 2001, at 2:37, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; While US<BR>&gt; &gt; military personnel aren't treated as badly as the CIS's, the quality of<BR>&gt; &gt; life is rather low.&nbsp; It's really surprising that the retention rate<BR>&gt; &gt; isn't lower than it already is.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ours is terrible, and once the thrill of active service in East Timor<BR>&gt; wears off I expect it to get even worse - our pay, even counting all the<BR>&gt; allowances, is so much worse than that of the Aussies (even if you ignore<BR>&gt; the exchange rate) that people'll be leaving in whilesale lots. It's not<BR>&gt; hepling that the Aussie Army said they'd quite happily take our guys on,<BR>&gt; and often even give them their old rank back fairly quickly, though given<BR>&gt; the quality of some of their boys back in '92 when I was on excerise<BR>&gt; there I'm not surprised (no insult intend - we've got pur share of<BR>&gt; incompetents, too).<BR><BR>Of course, it is quite conceivable that the reason why Australia is<BR>poaching Kiwi personnel is because there is a chronic shortfall of recruits<BR>and a low retention rate in the Australian military too...<BR><BR>Alan Bradley<BR>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:53:24 +1000<BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: OT 'En Garde'<BR><BR>&gt; From: "Andrew Long" <BR>&gt; Whatever, well worth a go. A number of my friends participate in a PBEM<BR>&gt; game, which has been extended by a variant covering the lives of their<BR>&gt; lady Loves (based on the movie 'Dangerous Liasons'). <BR><BR>Actually back in the '80s I tried to get a game going, and discovered that<BR>the female gamers in my group really really didn't want to know about a<BR>game that had gender specific roles built into it.&nbsp; I was of course<BR>planning on ignoring/changing this, but they just refused to play it.&nbsp; So I<BR>just warmed up D&amp;D campaign number 500....<BR><BR>(Sigh.)<BR><BR>Oh, and En Garde is _not_ OT!&nbsp; Rather, it is a sourcebook for the<BR>construction of Noble and other high-level political scenarios...&nbsp; <BR><BR>Eg:&nbsp; Your character is assigned to Prince Lucan's security detachment... <BR><BR>Alan Bradley<BR>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:48:53 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On 18 Feb 2001, at 16:17, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>&gt; And fundamentally, this is a problem of the court system.&nbsp; In the 3I,<BR>&gt; the courts exist only at the pleasure of the nobility.&nbsp; There are no<BR>&gt; rules of stare decisis, i.e., no binding precedent.&nbsp; Time for appeals<BR>&gt; can be limited or expanded by the noble in charge.<BR><BR>Hmm - but the emperor would set a baseline (or previous emperors set <BR>one from which the current works) and the sector dukes would generally<BR>follow that lead but with some possible variance.&nbsp; Variance could <BR>increase down to planetary barons.&nbsp; So there's probably a gradient of <BR>justice throughout the Imperium - some areas may be generally known<BR>as strict (or strict on certain issues) while others are more lenient.<BR><BR>Has anyone given thought to what the judicial feel different areas of <BR>their Imperium are known for?<BR><BR>(I find the ideas of different cultural regions fascinating, and <BR>consistent with how things seem to develop in RL.&nbsp; Plus they can add <BR>flavor to a game, i.e. you know someone's an Antarean from his accent,<BR>etc. and can reasonably expect certain beliefs and behaviors from him.)<BR><BR><BR>&gt; There is no precedence.&nbsp; Whatever the noble says.&nbsp; Including seizures<BR>&gt; of your current land, regardless of whatever title you may claim.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Archduke Norris to Titled Owner of nice hunting land:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; "Nice place you have here.&nbsp; Excuse me.&nbsp; Nice place *I* have here.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; You have 30 seconds to leave forever."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In canon, there is very little evidence of any significant legal framework,<BR>&gt; and particularly little that might resemble modern democratic systems.<BR><BR>But not a lot of evidence for abuse of power as shown above, right?<BR><BR>I do recall an adventure in a Traveller's Digest where the adventurers<BR>are at the main Scout computer base, researching the validity of a <BR>particular land claim.&nbsp; Seems the local computer records had been wiped<BR>and they went to the old, ancient computer records in the Scout <BR>computer center to recreate the information.&nbsp; This makes it sound like<BR>there was a feeling of some kind of framework/precent system (at least<BR>among Mssrs.Thomas and Fulgate).<BR>Personnally, I imagine maybe early on in the history of the Imperium <BR>(perhaps up until the Civil War period [and it's Syleafication]) the<BR>nobles having broad powers without any binding baggage other than the<BR>whims of their leige lord.&nbsp; But in "modern times" *some* kind of system<BR>has arisen to, if nothing else, help the nobles (and GM) deal with <BR>large numbers of issues (perhaps as they take on more judicial duties <BR>as the Imperium expansion settles down).&nbsp; But it would also help level <BR>out large variances in judicial outcomes.&nbsp; I would picture modern <BR>nobles being hogtied by the system, but not completely free to do <BR>whatever they want either.<BR><BR>That article I posted about last week, "Scepter and Starship" (aka <BR>"Robe and Blaster"), had lots of interesting rights and benefits of <BR>being a noble, which is cool (and provides incentives for players), but <BR>it'd also be interesting to have a list of duties and obligations of <BR>nobility.&nbsp; (I know GT: Nobles (is coming/has come)? out, but I haven't <BR>seen it, and I don't have T4's Missions of State to see<BR>what it says about the nobility either. Are there other canon/non-canon<BR>sources of information?)<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>What part of 'gestalt' don't you understand?<BR>Welchen Teil von 'gestalt' verstehen Sie nicht?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:50:36 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Indefinite life span<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Paul Drye wrote :-<BR>&gt; &gt; The key point is that accidents are essentially random, so a large<BR>&gt; &gt; enough group has a "half-life".<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I thought that life expectancy was just that - the age at which 50% of a <BR>&gt;given cohort are still alive.<BR><BR>I put it into quotes in an attempt to imply radioactive half-life, which has <BR>some peculiar features if you replace the atoms with people who act the same <BR>way.<BR><BR>My point was, in the West now life expectancy is a pretty useful figure. <BR>Call it eighty years, just to round it off. A very large fraction of the <BR>population will die between the ages of 60 and 90, so working on the <BR>assumption that one will live for eighty years is not a bad guess.<BR><BR>But on the other hand, if aging is stopped completely, death would be <BR>largely random -- accidents and contagious disease (this admittedly neglects <BR>stuff like heart disease, but then the argument transforms into "what is <BR>aging" and I'm not touching that with a 3.048 meter pole. Leave it out for <BR>simplicity's sake). If death is random, you can't make a good guess at how <BR>long you'd live.<BR><BR>Suppose the half-life were 804 years, as your rough calculation suggests. <BR>Approximately ten percent of the population would still be alive at the 2500 <BR>year mark. This difference in the degree of deviation from the life <BR>expectancy was what I was getting at -- no-one today, let alone ten percent <BR>of us, lives for three times our canonical three-score-and-ten, <BR>yogurt-gulping Azeris notwithstanding.<BR><BR>&gt;The profession's emphasis today seems to be on 'cure' rather than 'care', <BR>&gt;which is a shame given that many treatments are essentially palliative in <BR>&gt;nature.<BR><BR>Human nature seems to find solving a problem much more interesting than <BR>preventing the problem from occurring in the first place.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:18:39 -0500<BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>At 03:43 AM 2/19/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt;Mr. Boleyn,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I'm afraid I can't translate the E rankings into ground forces terms <BR>&gt; with any accuracy.&nbsp; I'm sure that many of the ex-infantry here on the TML <BR>&gt; will be reading this thread and jump in to give you a hand.<BR><BR>Well, I'm not ex-infantry (I'll finish my 19th year in the Navy next <BR>month), but as no one else has....<BR><BR>(Where two titles are given, the first is Army and the second is USMC.)<BR><BR>E1 - Private1/Private<BR>E2 - Private 2/Private First Class<BR>E3 - Private First Class/Lance Corporal<BR>E4 - Corporal<BR>E5 - Sergeant<BR>E6 - Staff Sergeant<BR>E7 - Sergeant First Class/Gunnery Sergeant<BR>E8 - Master Sergeant<BR>E9 - Sergeant Major<BR><BR>Incidentally, in the US Navy the term "rank" refers only to <BR>officers.&nbsp; Enlisted men have "rates," which are not to be confused with <BR>"ratings."&nbsp; My rate is PO1/E6, and my rating is Electronics Technician <BR>(formerly Radioman).&nbsp; Put the two together, and I'm an Electronics <BR>Technician First Class (ET1).&nbsp; One step down is an ET2; one step up is an <BR>ETC (Chief Electronics Technician).<BR><BR>No one has discussed the "O" ranks (we don't seem to have any ex-officers <BR>around here), but they're pretty much the same throughout the <BR>English-speaking world, as far as I can tell.<BR><BR>(The first title given is Navy, and the second is Army/USMC.)<BR><BR>O1 - Ensign/2nd Lieutenant<BR>O2 - Lieutenant (junior grade)/1st Lieutenant<BR>O3 - Lieutenant/Captain<BR>O4 - Lieutenant Commander/Major<BR>O5 - Commander/Lieutenant Colonel<BR>O6 - Captain/Colonel<BR>O7 - Rear Admiral (lower half)/Brigadier General<BR>O8 - Rear Admiral (upper half)/Major General<BR>O9 - Vice Admiral/Lieutenant General<BR>O10 - Admiral/General<BR><BR>(A Navy O7 used to be a Commodore, but that was changed sometime in the mid <BR>'80s.&nbsp; Long story.)<BR><BR>There are also Warrant Officer ranks, senior to all enlisted but <BR>(theoretically) junior to all officer ranks.&nbsp; The Navy has four of these, <BR>the Army has five.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; In my example, because I tested well, signed up for the nuc <BR>&gt; propulsion program, and made it through boot camp succesfully, I was made <BR>&gt; an E-3 at graduation.&nbsp; I was an E-4 six weeks later after passing through <BR>&gt; my first training hurdle; an "A" school.&nbsp; Over the remaining time in my 6 <BR>&gt; year enlistment, I earned E-5 and E-6 the regular way.&nbsp; I would have been <BR>&gt; promoted to E-7 the year I got out.<BR><BR>In my case, having signed up as a sub RM candidate, volunteering for sub <BR>duty and signing for six years vice the usual four, I was made an instant <BR>E3 (I was addressed as "Recruit" during boot camp, like everyone else, and <BR>wore a bare sleeve, but I was being paid as an E3 from the day I reported <BR>in and I sewed the E3 stripes on the day I left boot camp) and was advanced <BR>to E4 the day I completed RM A school, four and a half months later.&nbsp; Like <BR>Mr Whipsnade, I made E5 and E6 in the usual manner.&nbsp; (Don't expect to ever <BR>see E7, but I have three years left....)<BR><BR><BR>James<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3701<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (rly-yd04.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.4]) by air-yd03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:53:08 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:52:24 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id IAA28210;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:51:35 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:51:21 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id IAA28102<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:51:21 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:51:21 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102191351.IAA28102@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3701<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3702</B></TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, February 19 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3702<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Civility and Politeness.<BR>Re: Civility and Politeness.<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re : Indefinite life span<BR>Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)<BR>Re: OT 'En Garde'<BR>Anti-aging multi-faceted (attn: Robert)...<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Jump shadows and 100D limits<BR>RE: Freezing, cloning, etc.<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>RE: TGOOs<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:08:56 -0500<BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.<BR><BR>At 07:26 AM 2/17/01 +0000, Doug Berry wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;The goal is to have the water actually running for no more than three<BR>&gt; &gt;minutes per shower.&nbsp; People who try taking long showers are known as "water<BR>&gt; &gt;buffalos," and are soon straightened out. 8)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Perhaps you could clear something up for me.&nbsp; I've heard that sometimes sub<BR>&gt;crewmembers are awarded "real showers" for doing something notable.. i.e.,<BR>&gt;you can actually soak for a few minutes.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Myth or truth?<BR><BR>I've never seen it done, in a total of 10.6+ years on three different <BR>boats, but I suppose it's possible....<BR><BR><BR>James<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:10:27 -0500<BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.<BR><BR>At 03:03 PM 2/18/01 -0600, Charles Hensley wrote:<BR>&gt;James wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&lt;Snip a fascinating description of life on a target.&nbsp; (There are two<BR>&gt;types<BR>&gt;of ships - submarines and targets.)&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I have to disagree here.&nbsp; There are 3 types of ships: targets,<BR>&gt;submarines, and submarine killers<BR><BR>Though in my experience, the only reliable sub killers are submarines <BR>themselves....<BR><BR><BR>James<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:03:31 -0500<BR>From: "Michael Daumen" &lt;daumen@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt; Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; There's got to be some kind of legal framework or Trade and Commerce<BR>would<BR>&gt; &gt; grind to a halt.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Which is why I have suggested a Trade-oriented Uniform Commercial<BR>&gt; Code approach amongst significant trading worlds.&nbsp; It makes business<BR>&gt; predictable, therefore, less costly.&nbsp; Personal freedoms and liberties,<BR>&gt; big deal.&nbsp; Getting paid, risk of loss issues, terms of trade, contracts,<BR>&gt; dispute arbitration: these things get handled efficiently else business<BR>suffers.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Unpredictable and slow court systems would hurt megacorps more than<BR>&gt; help them.&nbsp; A predictable system that allows them to calculate costs<BR>&gt; and benefits is vital.<BR>&gt;<BR>If trade as promoted as much as the Emperor likes to boast, the corporate<BR>court's procedures could be very streamlined.&nbsp; I would imagine the largest<BR>delay possible would be the time for the advocates of both parties' to reach<BR>the court's world.<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;SNIP&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Some cases are tremendously complex even when the core matter is<BR>&gt; &gt; extremely simple. And some things can be made more complex if you have<BR>&gt; &gt; enough money to spend.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Only if the Court tolerates it.<BR><BR>What would cost so much?&nbsp; If you need experts, the noble goes to the<BR>university (or just make sure the magistrate is knowledgeable in corporate<BR>affairs).&nbsp; We are not talking environmental litigation or products<BR>liability, these courts would be reserved for contract disputes.&nbsp; And the<BR>factfinder would have some knowledge in the area as well.<BR>Now, if the shareholders of the corporation are trying to bring a claim on<BR>behalf of the corporation against the board's wishes, then you have<BR>conditions ripe for delay - but on behalf of the board of directors.&nbsp; This<BR>derivative action would need to be resolved in the corporation's home court<BR>before it got to the contract claim stage (but the contract claim would<BR>proceed with the same quickness).<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;SNIP&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Exactly, and if the noble in charge believes the best way to handle the<BR>case<BR>&gt; &gt; is to make it drag on then it will.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Then it isn't the fault of the courts or legal system, is it?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; If it's all at a noble's whim, as you say below, is it really a<BR>&gt; 'system' at all?&nbsp; I think not.<BR>&gt;<BR>I can't imagine the average noble in charge of his world's corporate court<BR>woud have the resources or willingness to irk both parties of the potential<BR>suit.&nbsp; If a corp was powerful enough they would have other nobles willing to<BR>intercede for them.&nbsp; And afterwards they'd remember which noble stuck it to<BR>them and be able to punish them accordingly if they wanted to.&nbsp; Or, on<BR>planets where the noble is known for delaying tactics, the parties could<BR>work out their own decision, or choose an alternate court, and then Sir<BR>Whoozit is out the court fees.&nbsp; A noble who delays risks the disapproval of<BR>the Emperor's stated trade policy, in most cases.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:38:39 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Bernie McGeehan &lt;einreb62@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Indefinite life span<BR><BR>This article was on the AP newswire yesterday:<BR><BR>Sunday February 18 7:18 PM ET<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Experts Discuss Life Expectancy <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; BY PAUL RECER, AP Science Writer <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Human life expectancy has<BR>increased by three decades since 1900<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and may reach 85 for babies born in this<BR>century, but that may be near the upper limit unless<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; science finds ways to dramatically slow the<BR>aging process, some researchers said Sunday.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Claims by some scientists that humans in this<BR>century will have a life expectancy of 100 or<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; even 120 are not realistic and not supported by<BR>the trends measuring the rates of death, said<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; S. Jay Olshansky of the University of Illinois,<BR>Chicago.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ``We anticipate that many people here today will<BR>live long enough to witness a life<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; expectancy of 85 years, but everybody alive<BR>today will be long dead before a life expectancy<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; of 100 is achieved, if ever,'' said Olshansky.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The researcher was the head of a panel of<BR>experts that on Sunday analyzed trends in human<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; life expectancy at the national meeting of the<BR>American Association for the Advancement of<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Science (news - web sites).<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Olshansky said there are no ``magic potions,<BR>hormones, antioxidants, forms of genetic<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; engineering or biomedical technologies that<BR>exist today that would permit a life expectancy<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; of 120 or 150 years as some people have<BR>claimed.''<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Leonard Hayflick, an expert on aging at the<BR>University of California, San Francisco,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; denounced what he called ``outrageous claims''<BR>by some scientists that humans are capable<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to living well past 100 years.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ``Superlongevity,'' he said ``is simply not<BR>possible.''<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hayflick said that even if the most common<BR>causes of death - cancer, heart disease and<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; stroke - were eliminated, ``the increase in life<BR>expectancy would be no more than 15 years.''<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; With those death causes gone, he said, the true<BR>cause of death would be revealed: the aging<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; process.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Aging, he said, is a decline on a molecular<BR>level that makes people ``increasingly vulnerable<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to disease'' and that this process is not<BR>receiving much research attention.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Instead, most aging research, said Hayflick,<BR>concentrates on the age-related diseases that can<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be easily identified, such as heart attack,<BR>stroke, cancer and Alzheimer's disease (news - web<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; sites).<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Nature designed humans to peak physically at<BR>about age 20, to assure reproduction and<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; survival of the species, he said. After that,<BR>humans ``coast for another four to five decades''<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and it is the length of this coast that<BR>determines longevity<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Kaare Christensen of the University of Denmark<BR>said the future may not be as bleak as<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Olshansky and Hayflick suggest.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; He said studies in Sweden, where every citizen<BR>has been listed on health roles for about 200<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; years, show that the upper limit for the oldest<BR>of the old at the age of death is still going up.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A study published last year showed that the<BR>oldest person to die in that country in 1999 was<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 108.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Christensen said that the age at death of the<BR>oldest old continues to increase ``and the is no<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; evidence that we are pushing up against the<BR>limits.''<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Jeanne Calment, a Frenchwoman, died in 1997 at<BR>the oldest documental age of 122.45 years.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; But measuring the maximum age achieved by a<BR>remarkable individual does not directly<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; correspond to life expectancy, which is a<BR>measure of how long half of the population born at<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a specific time can expect to live, said other<BR>experts.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Olshansky said the developed nations of the<BR>world have already enjoyed the most dramatic<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; improvement in life expectancy in human history.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; An American female born in 1900 had a life<BR>expectancy of 48.9 years. By 1995, life<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; expectancy for a newborn girl was 79.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And there continues to be small gains. Death<BR>rates from 1985 to 1995 declined by 1.5<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; percent in France, 1.2 percent in Japan and 0.4<BR>percent in the U.S., said Olshansky.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Projecting these trends forward, he said, would<BR>give a combined male and female life<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; expectancy of 85 years in France by 2033 and in<BR>Japan in 2035. Americans would not<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; achieve a life expectancy of 85 until 2182,<BR>Olshansky said.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The Social Security Administration (news - web<BR>sites) has forecast that U.S. life expectancy<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; at birth will rise to 79.3 years for males and<BR>83.9 years for females by 2070. But to achieve<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; this, said Olshansky, would require a faster<BR>decline in death rates for all ages.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; For instance, to achieve the Social Security<BR>estimate, he said, would require that death rates<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for the population aged birth to 30 would have<BR>to approach zero.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This, said Olshansky, is ``biologically<BR>implausible and over optimistic.''<BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>"I don't know much about what I like, but I do know Art."&nbsp; &nbsp; me @ the Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam (Terra/Sol 3)http://prattfall.tripod.com/index.html<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 <BR>a year!&nbsp; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:54:52 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)<BR><BR>On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 06:22:00 -0800 rodge@nwnexus.com (Roger Sanger) wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Therefore, many people are taking the drug based on the research findings of<BR>&gt;animal experiments<BR>&gt;(you only have to wait about 3 years for those to be completed).&nbsp; These<BR>&gt;people have become<BR>&gt;self-selected guinea pigs.&nbsp; Who wants to be in the human longevity trial when<BR>&gt;there's a chance you<BR>&gt;could be in the control group taking nothing more than sugar pills (to keep<BR>&gt;the experiment<BR>&gt;"double-blind" to guard against the "placebo effect", neither the researchers<BR>&gt;nor the recipients<BR>&gt;know who is getting the experimental drug nor who is getting the placebo).<BR><BR>Whether or not the real-scale human trials takes 200 years or not, the<BR>scientists involved generally have to publish, or perish.<BR><BR>Do you have any references?<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:14:05 -0800<BR>From: "Brian Jenkins" &lt;brianjenk@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: OT 'En Garde'<BR><BR>There are actually several varients of En Garde online with extra rules.<BR>You can find several by going to the En Garde PBEM webring at<BR>www.hijenks.com/egwebring<BR><BR>Brian<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Leonard Erickson" &lt;shadow@krypton.rain.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 1:57 AM<BR>Subject: Re: OT 'En Garde'<BR><BR><BR>&gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; This little gem of a game was recently published in the UK by... wait<BR>for<BR>&gt; &gt; it... 'Small Furry Creatures Press' (or they might have been 'Fuzzy...')<BR>&gt; &gt; Whatever, well worth a go. A number of my friends participate in a PBEM<BR>&gt; &gt; game, which has been extended by a variant covering the lives of their<BR>&gt; &gt; lady Loves (based on the movie 'Dangerous Liasons').<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Are the extra rules available online?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>&gt;&nbsp; shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>&gt; leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 06:04:55 -0800<BR>From: Roger Sanger &lt;rodge@nwnexus.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Anti-aging multi-faceted (attn: Robert)...<BR><BR>&gt; Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Whoa!<BR><BR>That's exactly what I said when I first learned of it.<BR><BR>&gt; Caloric restriction is the only modality I am aware of for which there is<BR>&gt; good evidence for increase of longevity.<BR><BR>Caloric restriction is the standard against which the effectiveness of other modalities are<BR>compared.<BR><BR>&gt; There are the usual tentative reports with the typical gamut of<BR>&gt; anti-oxidants and hormone receptor blockers, which have been popping up<BR>&gt; since the 1950s.<BR><BR>Anti-oxidants, hormones, and hormone receptor blockers are all effective to a degree.&nbsp; They can<BR>add a couple decades to your life.&nbsp; But the "anagathic" I was referring to extends a species'<BR>maximum genetic lifespan.<BR><BR>&gt; I would be *very* interested to see your [anagathics] references so that I could review them<BR>&gt; myself.<BR><BR>I was planning to post a seperate message on real life anagathics, and will do so when time<BR>permits.&nbsp; I'll be sure to include my references.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Note that telomeres are only part of the problem (referring to an earlier<BR>&gt; post of yours).<BR><BR>True.&nbsp; Telomeres are just one facet of aging.&nbsp; "The Aging Process" is a misnomer, as there are<BR>currently 8 known categories of aging processes:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Free radicals (which cause oxidation and rancidity).<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Cross-linkers (causing tissues to become stiff, such as cigarette smoke and its affect on the<BR>arteries).<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Immunological decline and dysfunction (thymus gland shrinkage, autoimmune diseases, etc.)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Brain chemical decline and dysfunction (e.g., depletion of neurotransmitters with age).<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Neuroendocrinal decline and dysfunction (weaker gland function and hormone production with<BR>age).<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Lipofuscin accumulation (cellular waste products that choke brain tissue, liver spots, etc.).<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Aging clocks, such as killer hormones and programmed senescence (the Hayflick Limit).<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Degenerative diseases (thousands of them, with the main ones being atheroschlerosis,<BR>inflamation, and various pathogens such as bacteria, fungus, viruses, etc.).<BR><BR>As for telomeres, they have yet to show a direct cause/effect relationship between telomere length<BR>and the Hayflick Limit.<BR><BR>Here's a good interview that covers the subject of telomeres:<BR><BR>&nbsp; http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag98/feb98_interview.html<BR><BR>Food for thought,<BR><BR>Rodge<BR><BR><BR>P.S.:&nbsp; I'm almost ready to send my first updated For Sale list.&nbsp; Lots more items have been added<BR>to the list.&nbsp; There are over 2500 items in my RPG collection, but I've only inventoied about 1/3<BR>of it all so far.&nbsp; If there is anything in particular you are looking for, let me know, and I'll<BR>certainly keep my eyes out for it as I continue to log this stuff in.&nbsp; I should be sending the<BR>updated For Sale List by Friday.&nbsp; &nbsp; RS<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:34:41 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>There are a few of us ex-officers on the list (Captain, USAF Reserve <BR>Retired). The use of the same names for different ranks between the Navy and <BR>the "ground" forces, i.e., Lieutenant and Captain, can cause some confusion <BR>at times. (I got a great reception a few years ago when entering a Naval <BR>base and showing my reserve Captain's ID card.) US Space Command, based here <BR>in Colorado Springs, is composed of members from all of the services (and <BR>within NORAD, allied countries as well). To keep things clear, care is <BR>usually taken to include USN with the Navy Lieutenant and Captain ranks. In <BR>the Army and the Air Force (spun off from the Army), both 1st and 2nd <BR>Lieutenants are generally addressed as "Lieutenant".<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &gt;<BR>&gt;...<BR>&gt;No one has discussed the "O" ranks (we don't seem to have any ex-officers<BR>&gt;around here), but they're pretty much the same throughout the<BR>&gt;English-speaking world, as far as I can tell.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;(The first title given is Navy, and the second is Army/USMC.)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;O1 - Ensign/2nd Lieutenant<BR>&gt;O2 - Lieutenant (junior grade)/1st Lieutenant<BR>&gt;O3 - Lieutenant/Captain<BR>&gt;O4 - Lieutenant Commander/Major<BR>&gt;O5 - Commander/Lieutenant Colonel<BR>&gt;O6 - Captain/Colonel<BR>&gt;O7 - Rear Admiral (lower half)/Brigadier General<BR>&gt;O8 - Rear Admiral (upper half)/Major General<BR>&gt;O9 - Vice Admiral/Lieutenant General<BR>&gt;O10 - Admiral/General<BR>&gt;...<BR>&gt;James<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:41:43 -0000<BR>From: "Sam D" &lt;samdx@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>A friend of mine was drafted in 1969.&nbsp; When he showed up, a Marine was there <BR>and offered the recruits three more months of freedom if they joined the <BR>Corp.<BR><BR>My friend joined the Marines, and got an extra three months before having to <BR>show up for boot camp.&nbsp; I am not sure if they told him that in the Marines <BR>you had to do 4 years, compared to only 2 in the Army.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:45:45 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Jump shadows and 100D limits<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR>&gt;My current difficulties arise with the side effects of jump shadows.&nbsp; <BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR>&gt;If you think all of the above is confusing, I'm not even going to get <BR>&gt;started on the fact that the bodies exerting the 100D limits move.<BR>&gt;Well, after the screed above, I guess you can see why I'm having a <BR>&gt;little trouble with jump, 100D limits, and jump shadows.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; All too scarey for me.&nbsp; FWIW, I don't think that jump shadows<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; are worth the trouble.&nbsp; IMTU, the jump 'path' is perpendicular<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to all three traditional dimensions.&nbsp; This means that the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; straight-line path in 'real space' between entering and exiting<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; jump is entirely irrelevent.&nbsp; What is relevent is the gravetic<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; flux at the jump point.&nbsp; Jumping from too close to a big mass<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; introduces uncertainty in the jump that can lead to missjump.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In the past I have had no effect of a mass near the jump exit<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; point (other than a risk of trying to come out of jump in a<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; planet, which was a significant risk when aiming for a point<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; within 100D of a world), but I am considering using DMs for<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the missjump roll based on the 100D limit of the target world.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:44:56 -0000<BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Freezing, cloning, etc.<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Larson Whipsnade wrote :-<BR>&gt; &gt; I don't know what it is you actually do for a career, but I do hope<BR>&gt; &gt; that it utilizes your ability to make detailed technical information<BR>&gt; &gt; more widely understood.<BR>&gt; Aw, shucks.<BR>&gt; I'm just a simple medical doctor with a biochem/physiology degree.<BR>&gt; My current occupation is 'slave' (oops, specialist in training).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; When I grow up, I want to be an anaesthetist that does some <BR>&gt; intensive care<BR>&gt; work. Or is that the other way around?<BR><BR>When you become an anaesthetist you want to grow up? :)<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:31:50<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>At 08:18 AM 2/19/2001 -0500, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;(Where two titles are given, the first is Army and the second is USMC.)<BR><BR>&gt;E4 - Corporal<BR><BR>The Army also has the Specialist rank at E-4.&nbsp; Formally known as Specialist<BR>4th Class, or Spec 4.&nbsp; There used to be an entire parallel rank structure<BR>for enlisted men in non-leadership positions, up through E-7.<BR><BR>&gt;E8 - Master Sergeant<BR><BR>With the additional Army rank at this level of First Sergeant.&nbsp; First<BR>sergeants are the senior NCOs in a company.&nbsp; When you are an E-1 or -2,<BR>they are God.<BR><BR>&gt;E9 - Sergeant Major<BR><BR>Again, US Army has two levels at this rank.. the vanilla SM, and Command<BR>Sergeants Major.&nbsp; CSMs are the senior NCOs in battalion or larger formations.<BR><BR>Sergeants Major are terrifying forces of nature.&nbsp; They really run the Army,<BR>although they let the officers pretend that they have something to do with<BR>it.&nbsp; Very tolerant ones will even call 2nd Lieutenants "sir" on occasion.<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>Embrace Fascism.&nbsp; &nbsp; The uniforms look cool<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:53:04 -0000<BR>From: "Sam D" &lt;samdx@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>Maybe contracts would include a provision that all disputes would be decided <BR>according to a particular world's law, or even in the courts of a particular <BR>world.&nbsp; Some worlds might have well developed and respected bodies of <BR>commercial law, like Delaware does with corporations.&nbsp; Resolving legal <BR>disputes might even become a big industry on some worlds.<BR><BR>Or, contracts might include binding arbitration if the imperial system is <BR>slow or corrupt.&nbsp; But there must be some form of effective contract <BR>enforcement, if commerce is anything but local.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:09:55 -0000<BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TGOOs<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jones, Dean wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; If anyone hadn't guessed, 'bang' is ancient hacker <BR>&gt; (computer expert, not<BR>&gt; &gt; cracker) slang for the exclamation mark.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ancient maybe, but not dead.&nbsp; Just a year ago I was taught <BR>&gt; that "set!" is<BR>&gt; pronounced "set-bang" in Scheme.&nbsp; And "#!" is pronounced "shebang" in<BR>&gt; Perl.<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>Dead? Absolutely not! I myself still refer to the 'bit bucket' and black<BR>holes...and I even realised I'd referred to 'Black Magic' the other day!<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:13:21 -0000<BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>I believe that the ImpNavy also uses the Ratings system (Hogh Guard)<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <BR>&gt; [mailto:alasdair.maciain@snet.net]<BR>&gt; Sent: 19 February 2001 13:19<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; At 03:43 AM 2/19/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;Mr. Boleyn,<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I'm afraid I can't translate the E rankings into ground <BR>&gt; forces terms <BR>&gt; &gt; with any accuracy.&nbsp; I'm sure that many of the ex-infantry <BR>&gt; here on the TML <BR>&gt; &gt; will be reading this thread and jump in to give you a hand.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Well, I'm not ex-infantry (I'll finish my 19th year in the Navy next <BR>&gt; month), but as no one else has....<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; (Where two titles are given, the first is Army and the second <BR>&gt; is USMC.)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; E1 - Private1/Private<BR>&gt; E2 - Private 2/Private First Class<BR>&gt; E3 - Private First Class/Lance Corporal<BR>&gt; E4 - Corporal<BR>&gt; E5 - Sergeant<BR>&gt; E6 - Staff Sergeant<BR>&gt; E7 - Sergeant First Class/Gunnery Sergeant<BR>&gt; E8 - Master Sergeant<BR>&gt; E9 - Sergeant Major<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Incidentally, in the US Navy the term "rank" refers only to <BR>&gt; officers.&nbsp; Enlisted men have "rates," which are not to be <BR>&gt; confused with <BR>&gt; "ratings."&nbsp; My rate is PO1/E6, and my rating is Electronics <BR>&gt; Technician <BR>&gt; (formerly Radioman).&nbsp; Put the two together, and I'm an Electronics <BR>&gt; Technician First Class (ET1).&nbsp; One step down is an ET2; one <BR>&gt; step up is an <BR>&gt; ETC (Chief Electronics Technician).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; No one has discussed the "O" ranks (we don't seem to have any <BR>&gt; ex-officers <BR>&gt; around here), but they're pretty much the same throughout the <BR>&gt; English-speaking world, as far as I can tell.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; (The first title given is Navy, and the second is Army/USMC.)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; O1 - Ensign/2nd Lieutenant<BR>&gt; O2 - Lieutenant (junior grade)/1st Lieutenant<BR>&gt; O3 - Lieutenant/Captain<BR>&gt; O4 - Lieutenant Commander/Major<BR>&gt; O5 - Commander/Lieutenant Colonel<BR>&gt; O6 - Captain/Colonel<BR>&gt; O7 - Rear Admiral (lower half)/Brigadier General<BR>&gt; O8 - Rear Admiral (upper half)/Major General<BR>&gt; O9 - Vice Admiral/Lieutenant General<BR>&gt; O10 - Admiral/General<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; (A Navy O7 used to be a Commodore, but that was changed <BR>&gt; sometime in the mid <BR>&gt; '80s.&nbsp; Long story.)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; There are also Warrant Officer ranks, senior to all enlisted but <BR>&gt; (theoretically) junior to all officer ranks.&nbsp; The Navy has <BR>&gt; four of these, <BR>&gt; the Army has five.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; In my example, because I tested well, signed up for the nuc <BR>&gt; &gt; propulsion program, and made it through boot camp <BR>&gt; succesfully, I was made <BR>&gt; &gt; an E-3 at graduation.&nbsp; I was an E-4 six weeks later after <BR>&gt; passing through <BR>&gt; &gt; my first training hurdle; an "A" school.&nbsp; Over the <BR>&gt; remaining time in my 6 <BR>&gt; &gt; year enlistment, I earned E-5 and E-6 the regular way.&nbsp; I <BR>&gt; would have been <BR>&gt; &gt; promoted to E-7 the year I got out.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In my case, having signed up as a sub RM candidate, <BR>&gt; volunteering for sub <BR>&gt; duty and signing for six years vice the usual four, I was <BR>&gt; made an instant <BR>&gt; E3 (I was addressed as "Recruit" during boot camp, like <BR>&gt; everyone else, and <BR>&gt; wore a bare sleeve, but I was being paid as an E3 from the <BR>&gt; day I reported <BR>&gt; in and I sewed the E3 stripes on the day I left boot camp) <BR>&gt; and was advanced <BR>&gt; to E4 the day I completed RM A school, four and a half months <BR>&gt; later.&nbsp; Like <BR>&gt; Mr Whipsnade, I made E5 and E6 in the usual manner.&nbsp; (Don't <BR>&gt; expect to ever <BR>&gt; see E7, but I have three years left....)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; James<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:19:51 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 9:03, Michael Daumen wrote:<BR>&lt;SNIP&gt;<BR>&gt; I can't imagine the average noble in charge of his world's corporate court<BR>&gt; woud have the resources or willingness to irk both parties of the potential<BR>&gt; suit.&nbsp; If a corp was powerful enough they would have other nobles willing to<BR>&gt; intercede for them.&nbsp; And afterwards they'd remember which noble stuck it to<BR>&gt; them and be able to punish them accordingly if they wanted to.&nbsp; Or, on<BR>&gt; planets where the noble is known for delaying tactics, the parties could<BR>&gt; work out their own decision, or choose an alternate court, and then Sir<BR>&gt; Whoozit is out the court fees.&nbsp; A noble who delays risks the disapproval of<BR>&gt; the Emperor's stated trade policy, in most cases.<BR><BR>I'm nowhere near a lawyer (either physically, or professionally), but I <BR>was pondering - if a nobles regularly had to adjudicate between <BR>possibly conflicting self-interests (the state vs. his shares in <BR>megacorp.X), wouldn't that be seen (by his peers and higher-ranking <BR>nobles, if not the population at large) as a Bad Thing ripe for <BR>corruption?&nbsp; If so, perhaps nobles delegate the judicial duties to <BR>professional judges (elected/appointed by the local peerage?), with<BR>final appeal to the noble themself in extreme cases.&nbsp; They'd be upper-<BR>level courts, not the lower and/or common level courts for regular <BR>criminal/civil actions, or lower-level 'imperial commercial courts'.<BR><BR>(Pardon me if I've missed things already mentioned in this thread,<BR>or am otherwise off-base. :)<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:<BR>Nullo metro compositum est.&nbsp; --&nbsp;&nbsp; It doesn't rhyme.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3702<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xa02.mx.aol.com (rly-xa02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.71]) by air-xa03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:27:05 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xa02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:26:32 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA34400;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:20:03 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:19:25 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id LAA34350<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:19:25 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:19:25 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102191619.LAA34350@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3702<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, February 19 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3703<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: TGOOs<BR>Re: Shaggy3d<BR>Going Offlist and Princess Bride<BR>Re: Going Offlist and Princess Bride<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>OT: Ultraviolet<BR>RE: Imperial legal structures&nbsp; (was Trade Wars)<BR>COACC errata<BR>Source Code request?<BR>Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR>Re: OT 'En Garde'<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.<BR>Re: TGOOs<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)<BR>Some interesting weaponry<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:25:24 -0000<BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>&lt;snip cleaning discussion&gt;<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; I don't think that robots <BR>&gt; would fit the <BR>&gt; bill either.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Larsen<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Certainly not! Two very good reasons:<BR><BR>1) Maintaining clean quarters is a good discipline exercise<BR><BR>2) You'd need storage space to keep the robot in.<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:27:15 -0000<BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hmm. The British only press-ganged into the Navy, their Army <BR>&gt; was volunteer. Now <BR>&gt; I wonder why that could be?<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>Two words:<BR><BR>Weevil biscuits.<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:32:52 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>A good web site for the ranks and insignia of the US Armed Forces is:<BR>http://mav.net/wguynes/military/<BR>I'll agree totally with the comment below on E-9's being "terrifying forces <BR>of nature". In the USAF, the most senior enlisted rank is Chief Master <BR>Sergeant. In one of my active duty assignments, I was assigned to a remote <BR>R&amp;D satellite tracking site as a new Captain. The senior civilian (civil <BR>service) there was a retired Chief Master Sergeant, one of the first created <BR>in the USAF, who stood about 6'8" tall. He had been in charge of building <BR>the site while on active duty and knew the science and engineering inside <BR>out. He had a reputation of being a "terrifying force of nature" and most <BR>"senior" personnel avoided challenging him. After a few discussions, we <BR>established a great working relationship and he became one of my best <BR>friends. I think it is like some of the sub stories where, especially in <BR>remote or isolated settings (away from the headquarters), it is your <BR>knowledge of (and interest in) the job and not your rank that determines the <BR>pecking order.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Sergeants Major are terrifying forces of nature.&nbsp; They really run the Army,<BR>&gt;although they let the officers pretend that they have something to do with<BR>&gt;it.&nbsp; Very tolerant ones will even call 2nd Lieutenants "sir" on occasion.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:34:56 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TGOOs<BR><BR>On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jones, Dean wrote:<BR>&gt; Dead? Absolutely not! I myself still refer to the 'bit bucket' and black<BR>&gt; holes...and I even realised I'd referred to 'Black Magic' the other day!<BR><BR>The Computer Science student club had a year and a half ago a paper basket<BR>which had the words "/dev/null" on it... <BR><BR>Sadly, it was lost when they changed their clubhouse...<BR><BR>- -- <BR>+++++++++[&gt;+++++++++&lt;-]&gt;-.&lt;+++++[&gt;+++&lt;-]++&gt;++.&lt;++[&gt;++++&lt;-]+&gt;+.&lt;++[&gt;----<BR>&lt;-]&gt;-.&gt;+++[&gt;++++++++++&lt;-]++&gt;++pare@iki.fi&lt;+[&gt;++++&lt;-]&gt;+.-&gt;+[&gt;++++[&lt;&lt;---&gt;<BR>&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;.&gt;&gt;+++++++[&lt;++++++++++&gt;-]++++[&lt;+++++&gt;-]&lt;-.&gt;[-]&gt;+++[&gt;++[&lt;&lt;&lt;----&gt;&gt;<BR>&lt;&gt;&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;&lt;.+.&gt;[-]++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;.++.[-]&gt;[-]++++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;++.&gt;&gt;++[&gt;++[&gt;-&lt;-]&lt;--]<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:44:10 -0000<BR>From: "Jeff Rowse" &lt;jeffrowse@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Shaggy3d<BR><BR>Could it be possible for the DNA remaining in a pair of trainers/sneakers <BR>(after Ditzie has, ahem, 'spoken to' the wearer) to be reincarnated?<BR><BR>I'm certainly not a TGOO (or any other sort of GOO), but I think I may <BR>almost be up to the level of GSR (or maybe just LSR).<BR><BR>Someone pass the Shantaks, please...<BR><BR>Jeff.<BR><BR>(ps Shaggy3d, please do not take offence at the above.)<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:58:39 -0000<BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Going Offlist and Princess Bride<BR><BR>Well folks, I'm off for four days of management training in the sunny Milton<BR>Keynes. Because I don't want to blow up my exchange server, I'll be<BR>unsubbing 'till Friday, so please feel free to talk about me beind my back<BR>:)<BR><BR>Oh, and I started reading the Princess Bride on Friday. Sadly I made the<BR>mistake of enjoying it so much that I read the whole first chapter to my<BR>girlfriend...who promptly stole the book and finished reading it. So far I<BR>am up to Westley and The Machine. Many thanks to the list for recommending<BR>this brilliant book.<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:03:15 EST<BR>From: CPoppcap@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Going Offlist and Princess Bride<BR><BR>It is strange ,I love both the book and the movie .<BR>Never had that happen before <BR>Chuck Popp<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:22:06 -0000<BR>From: "Sam D" &lt;samdx@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>Rob Davenport wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;If so, perhaps nobles delegate the judicial duties to professional<BR>&gt;judges (elected/appointed by the local peerage?), with final appeal to the <BR>&gt;noble themself in extreme cases. They'd be upper- level courts, not the <BR>&gt;lower and/or common level courts for regular criminal/civil actions, or <BR>&gt;lower-level 'imperial commercial courts'.<BR><BR>On the same line, there could be judges, but they would be more like <BR>magistrates or masters in the U.S. system.&nbsp; The Duke would normally rubber <BR>stamp the magistrates decisions, but the noble could occasionally make his <BR>own ruling when demanded by justice or his stock portfolio.<BR><BR>That would also allow the nobility to avoid most of the tedious procedural <BR>nonsense associated with litigation.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:22:35 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: OT: Ultraviolet<BR><BR>Please excuse this OT posting but I know some of&nbsp; you&nbsp; should&nbsp; be<BR>interested in this ...<BR><BR>The Brit TV series "Ultraviolet" is now out on a double&nbsp; DVD&nbsp; set<BR>(as well as video).&nbsp; For those who&nbsp; haven't&nbsp; had&nbsp; their&nbsp; machines<BR>fixed yet (and why not?) it is region 2.&nbsp; One thing&nbsp; to&nbsp; note&nbsp; is<BR>the disk labeled "Disk 1" is actually disk 2 and the disk labeled<BR>"Disk 2" is actually disk&nbsp; 1.&nbsp; Sale&nbsp; price&nbsp; GBP&nbsp; 22.00&nbsp; to&nbsp; 25.00<BR>(depending where you buy it) ... which for 300&nbsp; minutes&nbsp; is&nbsp; good<BR>value for money.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:54:17 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Imperial legal structures&nbsp; (was Trade Wars)<BR><BR>Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>&gt; I tend to date the revision of the Imperial Constitution to the<BR>&gt; Civil War period, although there were usurping emperors like<BR>&gt; Cleon IV before then, who probably found it convenient to ignore<BR>&gt; most of it.<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; IMTU, I see Olav hault-Plankwell ripping up the old Constitution<BR>&gt; and replacing it with a military dictatorship.&nbsp; Some of his<BR>&gt; rivals/successors notionally restored it, but were unable to<BR>&gt; make it stick.<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; Arbellatra essentially created a new Constitution that was a<BR>&gt; compromise between the old Constitution and the desire of the<BR>&gt; frontier nobility to restore the coherence of the Imperium (by<BR>&gt; de-emphasising the Domains and so on).<BR><BR>Sounds good to me.&nbsp; Though I suspect the Constitution would have<BR>further changed by 1100.&nbsp; My feeling is that the 3I Constitution<BR>of 1100&nbsp; would&nbsp; be&nbsp; like&nbsp; the&nbsp; modern&nbsp; day&nbsp; version&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; UK<BR>'constitution': a body of laws&nbsp; and&nbsp; traditions&nbsp; rather&nbsp; than&nbsp; a<BR>single document.&nbsp; The 'static-ness' of an unwritten constitution<BR>being provided by the desire of the&nbsp; establishment&nbsp; to&nbsp; preserve<BR>the status quo.<BR><BR>This would explain Dulinor's belief that&nbsp; reform&nbsp; was&nbsp; possible,<BR>followed by his exasperation at the slow *pace* of reform.&nbsp; Were<BR>a written Constitution document in place&nbsp; then&nbsp; reform&nbsp; (of&nbsp; the<BR>nature Dulinor championed) would not have been possible&nbsp; at&nbsp; all<BR>without Strephon sitting down to rewrite that Constitution.&nbsp; But<BR>an unwritten 'constitution' allows change but such change&nbsp; would<BR>be resisted and slow.<BR><BR>Thus, Arbellatra's 'constitution' was the 3I's&nbsp; version&nbsp; of&nbsp; the<BR>Magna Carta rather than a US style Constitution.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:20:45 EST<BR>From: TRiepe5898@aol.com<BR>Subject: COACC errata<BR><BR>Hi all<BR><BR>Are there errata for the MegaTrav product COACC? I recently got back into MT <BR>craft design, and some things seem to be missing ( the mass of the autocannon <BR>) or broken ( several pre-designed aircraft ).<BR>Can anybody help?<BR><BR>Tobias Riepe<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:41:01 -0800<BR>From: "Thing" &lt;thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Source Code request?<BR><BR>Dear Sophonts of the list,<BR><BR>Does anyone out there have, or know the location of, any good routines/<BR>algorythms for drawing linked/adjacent hexagons like for a subsector map,<BR>that they would be willing to share with me.&nbsp; I can't find the source for an<BR>old project I did this in and would rather not re-invent it if nescessary.<BR><BR>G.D.D.<BR>ThingUnderTheStairs<BR>Minion of SheChemist and GothBunny<BR>Grand Master of the Electron Flow<BR>===========================<BR>"They didn't want it good, they wanted it Wednesday." -Robert Heinlein<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:41 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;F360bPur9gSRp9tgEaQ00015f5a@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts, especially Mr Whipsnade.<BR><BR>Here's an excerpt from the scenario I am in the middle of, detailing the <BR>duelling ethic on the planet Lehar: -<BR><BR>"On Lehar, matters of honour are often settled by duelling. Duels are <BR>formal and stylised, but none the less deadly. Foils are used, with a long <BR>dagger in the 'off' hand, and the combatants strip to light fencing shorts <BR>to prevent the use of hidden armour. Duels may be fought to the first <BR>blood or to the death. A judge, the Judge of Honour, is present to call <BR>fouls such as grabbing or kicking one's opponent. Some younger Leharis <BR>favour the use of a lightweight sabre rather than the foil, but this is <BR>both frowned upon and illegal. The conventional form of duel is legal, <BR>provided that the challenge is made and accepted before an accredited <BR>Judge of Honour - this is a recognised profession on Lehar, paid by fees <BR>levied on the duellists and by charging admission to watch the duel. <BR>Indeed, duelling is a spectator sport and duels involving skilled or <BR>famous individuals are often broadcast. Several magazines are available on <BR>the 'sport' although it is not the done thing to issue a challenge except <BR>on a genuine point of honour."<BR><BR>I'll have a root around for the FLASHING BLADES stuff... think it's under <BR>my desk somewhere :-)<BR><BR>The doctorate is in plant physiology, an investigation of the ways in <BR>which plants detect and respond to changes in gravitation. On and off I am <BR>working on a 2nd one, in history (the development of uniforms).<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:12:33 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: OT 'En Garde'<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 22:53, Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>&gt; Oh, and En Garde is _not_ OT!&nbsp; Rather, it is a sourcebook for the<BR>&gt; construction of Noble and other high-level political scenarios...&nbsp; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Eg:&nbsp; Your character is assigned to Prince Lucan's security detachment... <BR><BR><BR>I surfed a little a lunch and found:<BR><BR>http://hijenks.com/engarde/picayune.htm#greasypole<BR><BR>The Orleans Picayune - apparently the monthly PBEM publication of <BR>events in that particular game - but several section were very <BR>intriguing and I could help but think of the Traveller equivalents.<BR>The Civil Appointments section, The Provinces, The Regiments, Force<BR>Deployment - all made me want equivalents for MTU...<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>'Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.'<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:38:10 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; I figure they'd just sweep it along somewhat faster than you can run,<BR>&gt; given the terrain. What's the world record for the 100 meter? A bit<BR>&gt; under 10 seconds? <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; That'd be around around 2.5 K. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; And, of course, there's something to be said for sweeping it along<BR>&gt; *slowly* as a way to "herd" the enemy.<BR><BR>What is that they say on the c-130 gunships "Don't run away, you'll only <BR>die tired"<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:03:24 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.<BR><BR>Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Larson Whipsnade wrote :-<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; I don't know what it is you actually do for a career, but I do hope<BR>&gt;&gt; that it utilizes your ability to make detailed technical information<BR>&gt;&gt; more widely understood.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Aw, shucks.<BR>&gt; I'm just a simple medical doctor with a biochem/physiology degree.<BR>&gt; My current occupation is 'slave' (oops, specialist in training).<BR><BR><BR>Robert...the correct form is 'I'm just a country doctor, Jim!' no matter what the name of the other person is ;-)<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:26:24 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TGOOs<BR><BR>Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jones, Dean wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Dead? Absolutely not! I myself still refer to the 'bit bucket' and black<BR>&gt;&gt; holes...and I even realised I'd referred to 'Black Magic' the other day!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The Computer Science student club had a year and a half ago a paper basket<BR>&gt; which had the words "/dev/null" on it... <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Sadly, it was lost when they changed their clubhouse...<BR><BR>Ha! We have a large paper recycling bin in our ffice labelled /tmp. <BR>because it doesn't get emptied all that often, it's often possible to <BR>retrieve things from /tmp ;-)<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:50:46 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Put the two together, and I'm an Electronics Technician First Class <BR>(ET1)."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Mr. Gilly's post, plus that of Mr. Harris, has started me thinking <BR>about ratings (job classifications) within the IN.&nbsp; Although HG2 does <BR>provide some clues, what sort of job classifications do you think would <BR>exist in the Imperial Navy?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Missileman, naturally.&nbsp; Engineering might split up a bit; ie. drives, <BR>mechanics, electrical, electronic, etc.&nbsp; Would screens be split up too, a <BR>Dampersman 2nd class and a Chief Globe Operator?&nbsp; Would beam weapons be <BR>divvied up between lasers, fusion, and plasma guns?&nbsp; How about spinal <BR>mounts?&nbsp; The ancillary rates, each as important as the ones mentioned above, <BR>could be interesting.&nbsp; Would vacc suit maintenance rate one?&nbsp; Comm gear <BR>would of course, along with computer work.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Mr. Harris mentioned he's a JO, journalists' mate, I particular type of <BR>sailor I never ran into and have no idea what the actually job would entail. <BR>&nbsp; The USN has many "odd", "quirky", or just plain old fashioned job <BR>classifications.&nbsp; Some are useful, some are not.&nbsp; (There was an award <BR>winning series of articles in the WSJ last year detailing the waste <BR>associated with the US military's institutional inertia.)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Names change meaning too.&nbsp; I was a machinist mate, but never ran a <BR>lathe.&nbsp; My early 1900's predecessors might have, but by 1980 we'd morphed <BR>into something different.&nbsp; How much of that would occur in the IN over 1000 <BR>years?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; In my lifetime, boiler techs have all but disappeared from the USN.&nbsp; <BR>They used to be one of the biggest groups, but all new combatants are either <BR>gas turbines or nucs.&nbsp; No fossil steam plants are built anymore.&nbsp; I saw IC <BR>men (internal communications) and DC men (damage control) disappear during <BR>the 6 years I was in.&nbsp; Not all tech changes force jobs to disappear though.&nbsp; <BR>The WSJ article used lithographers as an example.&nbsp; They were useless in my <BR>day, the 80's, and yet are still "working" aboard carriers as late as 2000.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "...and was advanced to E4 the day I completed RM A school, four and a <BR>half months later. Like Mr Whipsnade, I made E5 and E6 in the usual manner.&nbsp; <BR>(Don't expect to ever see E7, but I have three years left....)"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As an explanation to the rest of the list, advancement in the Navy <BR>depends on a few things.&nbsp; You're tested of&nbsp; course, but simply having a <BR>pulse is enough to pass.&nbsp; I aced mine, plus the associated course work, but <BR>that wouldn't have advanced me alone one bit.&nbsp; Another requirement is a <BR>certain amount of time at each rank before being "allowed" to try for your <BR>next rate, along with how long you've been at your current rank; seniority.&nbsp; <BR>The third, and most important, is how many people are ahead of you.&nbsp; This <BR>one is the tail that wags the dog.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; In a popular job is said to be "filled".&nbsp; The number of people allowed <BR>to enter it is strictly limited and promotion follows a "domino" pattern.&nbsp; <BR>It's like a full night club you want to get into; 2 people got to leave <BR>before 2 can get in.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sub duty is very popular; more pay, barracks ashore, the "cachet" of <BR>the silent service, etc.&nbsp; So my friends who did the same job as I did on a <BR>sub advanced no where as fast as I did.&nbsp; The USN hemorrhaged surface nucs.&nbsp; <BR>They simply could not keep them in the service.&nbsp; There was no one ahead of <BR>me when it came time for promotion; I could have tubed the tests and still <BR>gotten my bump.&nbsp; Conversely, there are so many many people in the subs, my <BR>nuc counterpart, even he he aced his test, had to wait for someone to retire <BR>and the ripple to reach him.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; That's why I could have made E-7 in 6 years, 9 months and Mr. Gilly is <BR>hoping to do the same in 20 years.&nbsp; It ahs nothing to do with smarts, <BR>skills, quality of work; just how many people are "ahead" of him.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:56:14 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>From: "Sam D" &lt;samdx@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "A friend of mine was drafted in 1969.&nbsp; When he showed up, a Marine<BR>was there and offered the recruits three more months of freedom if they <BR>joined the Corp."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; An excellent example of how a serive might not "participate" in the <BR>draft, yet beenfit greatly from it.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; All 3 services (the Air Force was still under Army control) accepted <BR>draftees towards the end of WW2.&nbsp; The Navy accepted draftees during WW1.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I read a book detailing the "Spanish Flu" recently.&nbsp; The USN was so <BR>hard hit, it had warships anchored at foreign ports unable to steam home <BR>because not enough of the crew was either hale or alive to do the job.<BR>The OBTravs there just invent themselves.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:05:29 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Here's an excerpt from the scenario I am in the middle of, detailing <BR>the duelling ethic on the planet Lehar: -"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <A material good very of snip><BR><BR>Doc Mexal,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you for the glimpse into society on Lehar.&nbsp; It convinced me that <BR>I really must do some more reading on dueling in order to do the customs <BR>surrounding it justice.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "The doctorate is in plant physiology, an investigation of the ways in <BR>which plants detect and respond to changes in gravitation."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Ah, I see.&nbsp; Hence my seed catalog references to the "Forward Mass <BR>Detecting Fern" and the "Densitometer Daisy".&nbsp; Thank you.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As always, madame, I remain you most humble and obedient servant,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (bows deeply, with one foot braced in front of the other, elaborate <BR>hand waves and a hanky tucked up his sleeve)<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:18:44 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 22:44, Alan Bradley wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Of course, it is quite conceivable that the reason why Australia is<BR>&gt; poaching Kiwi personnel is because there is a chronic shortfall of recruits and<BR>&gt; a low retention rate in the Australian military too...<BR><BR>Of course, though one wonders where they're going...<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:18:44 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 8:18, James Gilly / Alasdair MacIai wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; (Where two titles are given, the first is Army and the second is USMC.)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; E1 - Private1/Private<BR>&gt; E2 - Private 2/Private First Class<BR>&gt; E3 - Private First Class/Lance Corporal<BR>&gt; E4 - Corporal<BR>&gt; E5 - Sergeant<BR>&gt; E6 - Staff Sergeant<BR>&gt; E7 - Sergeant First Class/Gunnery Sergeant<BR>&gt; E8 - Master Sergeant<BR>&gt; E9 - Sergeant Major<BR><BR>In the NZ Army we had:<BR><BR>Other Ranks (baggies):<BR>Recruit in Training (those who hadn't yet completed their basic and specialist <BR>training)<BR>Private (most Corps)/Gunner (Artillery)/Trooper (Armour)<BR><BR>Junior NCOs:<BR>Lance Corporal (Lance Bombadier in Artillery)<BR>Corporal (Bombadier in Artillery)<BR><BR>Seniour NCOs:<BR>Sergeant<BR>Staff Sergeant<BR>WO1 (or WO2, I forget), once Sergeant Major, which is still what they're <BR>generally called, addressed as "Sarn't Major".<BR>WO2 (or one, whichever a Sergeant Major isn't), dress as officers and are <BR>addressed as "Sir" like an officer.<BR><BR>&gt; No one has discussed the "O" ranks (we don't seem to have any ex-officers <BR>&gt; around here), but they're pretty much the same throughout the <BR>&gt; English-speaking world, as far as I can tell.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; (The first title given is Navy, and the second is Army/USMC.)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; O1 - Ensign/2nd Lieutenant<BR>&gt; O2 - Lieutenant (junior grade)/1st Lieutenant<BR>&gt; O3 - Lieutenant/Captain<BR>&gt; O4 - Lieutenant Commander/Major<BR>&gt; O5 - Commander/Lieutenant Colonel<BR>&gt; O6 - Captain/Colonel<BR>&gt; O7 - Rear Admiral (lower half)/Brigadier General<BR>&gt; O8 - Rear Admiral (upper half)/Major General<BR>&gt; O9 - Vice Admiral/Lieutenant General<BR>&gt; O10 - Admiral/General<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; (A Navy O7 used to be a Commodore, but that was changed sometime in the mid<BR>&gt; '80s.&nbsp; Long story.)<BR><BR>At one point I think the NZ Navy had Midshipmen (it might still do so), and it <BR>may even have had both middies and ensigns at one point, but I'm not suire on <BR>this.<BR><BR>&gt; There are also Warrant Officer ranks, senior to all enlisted but <BR>&gt; (theoretically) junior to all officer ranks.&nbsp; The Navy has four of these, <BR>&gt; the Army has five.<BR><BR>We only have the two, and they're not really more than just an extension of the <BR>SNCO progression. A Company Sergeant Major (CSM) would be a Sergeant Major, and <BR>you'd expect an RSM ("Regimental Sergeant Major", even though he's the top NCO <BR>of a battalion) to be a WO2, if I've got them the right way 'round - it never <BR>really mattered as you only saw him on formal parades and warrant officers were <BR>usually refered to by their appointment, so he'd just be "the RSM", the <BR>Training Warrant Officer would be "the TWO", pronounced "tw-o" as in "twit" and <BR>"oh".<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:28:33 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 21:50, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In my lifetime, boiler techs have all but disappeared from the USN.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; They used to be one of the biggest groups, but all new combatants are either gas<BR>&gt; turbines or nucs.&nbsp; No fossil steam plants are built anymore.&nbsp; I saw IC men<BR>&gt; (internal communications) and DC men (damage control) disappear during the 6<BR>&gt; years I was in.&nbsp; Not all tech changes force jobs to disappear though.&nbsp; The WSJ<BR>&gt; article used lithographers as an example.&nbsp; They were useless in my day, the<BR>&gt; 80's, and yet are still "working" aboard carriers as late as 2000.<BR><BR>What were they replaced with?<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sub duty is very popular; more pay, barracks ashore, the "cachet" of <BR>&gt; the silent service, etc.&nbsp; So my friends who did the same job as I did on a sub<BR>&gt; advanced no where as fast as I did.&nbsp; The USN hemorrhaged surface nucs.&nbsp; They<BR>&gt; simply could not keep them in the service.&nbsp; There was no one ahead of me when it<BR>&gt; came time for promotion; I could have tubed the tests and still gotten my bump. <BR>&gt; Conversely, there are so many many people in the subs, my nuc counterpart, even<BR>&gt; he he aced his test, had to wait for someone to retire and the ripple to reach<BR>&gt; him.<BR><BR>Why is being a nuc on a sib considered a different job than on a cruiser? From <BR>what you're saying personnel aren't tranferrred from one to the other, and yet <BR>it sounds like they're the same job. This seems a bit silly.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:29:07 -0500<BR>From: Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)<BR><BR>On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:49:53 -0500 (EST), shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard<BR>Erickson) wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; BTW, does anyone know the origins of the word "anagathic"?&nbsp; I'm just <BR>&gt;&gt; curious.&nbsp; Did it come from a sci-fi novel, or what?<BR><BR>&gt;I think it came from the first (in terms of internal chronology, not<BR>&gt;publishing order) of James Blish's "Cities in Flight" books. I can;t<BR>&gt;recall the title though... :-(<BR><BR>You're correct, and the four books in _Cities_In_Flight_ were, in internal<BR>chronological order, _They_Shall_Have_Stars_, _A_Life_For_The_Stars_,<BR>_Earthman_Come_Home_, and _The_Triumph_Of_Time_.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:57 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Some interesting weaponry<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;F60ngpjB6EgmgEaIj3800016a1b@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>May I recommend you gun-bunnies head for <BR>http://birdman.org/products/Nuke50.htm forthwith :-)<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>TechSgt Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:01:14 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "What were they replaced with?"<BR><BR>Mr. Boleyn,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The IC guys were all converted into EMs, electricians.&nbsp; Apparently, <BR>whatever had differences in their work and equipment that had caused the <BR>creation of two "rates" had disappeared.&nbsp; DC types all joined up with HTs; <BR>meaning hull techs in navy-ese, welders to the rest of us.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; BTs simply faded away.&nbsp; In their place, two ro three tpes of GT; gas <BR>turbine, rates have grown up.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Why is being a nuc on a sub considered a different job than on a <BR>cruiser? From what you're saying personnel aren't tranferrred from one to <BR>the other, and yet it sounds like they're the same job. This seems a bit <BR>silly."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sub crews have always been volunteers, even during the brief periods <BR>the NAvy used draftees.&nbsp; There are a few medical conditions that would bar <BR>you from sub duty, but still allow you to serve aboard a ship.&nbsp; One onf the <BR>chiefs I worked for had been a sub type (bubblehead) for years until a <BR>medical problem forced him out.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sub crews, ecept for nucs, also recieve extra training, so you tend to <BR>get that at the beginning of you career rather than the end.&nbsp; While most <BR>rates can bounce back and forth between either ship or sub (I believe) nucs <BR>are locked in.&nbsp; And for no reason I ever could discern.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I passed all the medical and dental tests, volunteered for the duty, <BR>even trained at the Nautilus reactor prototype but got a cruiser instead.&nbsp; <BR>"Needs of the Navy" they said.&nbsp; "I'm out in six" I said.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; It most likely had something to do with the inability to keep surface <BR>nuc engineering manned at anything near what was needed.&nbsp; Once they had you <BR>there, you weren't going antwhere else.&nbsp; Towards the end of my tour, we had <BR>a few bubbleheads doing surface tours with us as an attmept to ease the <BR>manning crunch.&nbsp; It was "supposed" to help their chances for advancement.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Something like 95% of each nuc class is a sub vol, but the Navy still <BR>has to man carriers and cruisers, so that means someone's gonna get f*****.&nbsp; <BR>It's simple math.&nbsp; Who ever get's the short end, doesn't stay in, so you <BR>need more of them, more sub vols get f******, more get out, you need more, <BR>etc. etc, etc.&nbsp; Textbook vicious circle.<BR><BR><BR>OBTrav - Is there a job or ship type in the IN that's viewed as <BR>particularily odious?&nbsp; Or one that is viewed with great favor?&nbsp; Could this <BR>explain a PC's, with a 12 year navy career, decision to "retire"?<BR>"They cut me orders to a monitor, so I got out.&nbsp; A monitor?!!?&nbsp; I'm a <BR>cruiser man!"<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3703<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-yb05.mx.aol.com (rly-yb05.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.5]) by air-yb01.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:05:13 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yb05.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:04:51 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA51319;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:02:42 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:01:48 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA51269<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:01:48 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:01:48 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102192301.SAA51269@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3703<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></A></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, February 19 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3704<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Source Code request?<BR>Princess Bride<BR>RE: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: Princess Bride<BR>Re: En Garde<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>RE: Draught (Draft?)<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Ship habitability<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:20:13 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 23:01, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Mr. Boleyn,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The IC guys were all converted into EMs, electricians.&nbsp; Apparently, <BR>&gt; whatever had differences in their work and equipment that had caused the <BR>&gt; creation of two "rates" had disappeared.<BR><BR>Fiar enough.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; DC types all joined up with HTs;<BR>&gt; meaning hull techs in navy-ese, welders to the rest of us.<BR><BR>Ah. I assumed that DC would be specialists at jury-rigging pumps and such, or <BR>fire-fighting or some-such, and so I couldn't think of anything else they might <BR>have become.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; BTs simply faded away.&nbsp; In their place, two ro three tpes of GT; gas <BR>&gt; turbine, rates have grown up.<BR><BR>I guessed that, it was the other two I couldn't see.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sub crews, ecept for nucs, also recieve extra training, so you tend to get<BR>&gt; that at the beginning of you career rather than the end.&nbsp; While most rates can<BR>&gt; bounce back and forth between either ship or sub (I believe) nucs are locked in.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; And for no reason I ever could discern.<BR><BR>So the one area that requires no extra training is the one that gets locked in? <BR>Weird.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I passed all the medical and dental tests, volunteered for the duty, <BR>&gt; even trained at the Nautilus reactor prototype but got a cruiser instead. <BR>&gt; "Needs of the Navy" they said.&nbsp; "I'm out in six" I said.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; It most likely had something to do with the inability to keep surface nuc<BR>&gt; engineering manned at anything near what was needed.&nbsp; Once they had you there,<BR>&gt; you weren't going antwhere else.&nbsp; Towards the end of my tour, we had a few<BR>&gt; bubbleheads doing surface tours with us as an attmept to ease the manning<BR>&gt; crunch.&nbsp; It was "supposed" to help their chances for advancement.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Something like 95% of each nuc class is a sub vol, but the Navy still has<BR>&gt; to man carriers and cruisers, so that means someone's gonna get f*****.&nbsp; It's<BR>&gt; simple math.&nbsp; Who ever get's the short end, doesn't stay in, so you need more of<BR>&gt; them, more sub vols get f******, more get out, you need more, etc. etc, etc. <BR>&gt; Textbook vicious circle.<BR><BR>Whereas if they allowed rotation between them it would simply be part of the <BR>job to do a year or two on a surface ship, and it might also make a bit more <BR>room for promotion of qualified personnel, and cut down on the over-promotion <BR>of poor quality personnel in the surface vessels.<BR><BR>We had a similar problem (and AFAIK it's still there) in the Army. As military <BR>pay is low many people join the Army to get quals that will be of use in <BR>civilian life, and once they've got them they leave. This means that everyone <BR>tries to join the Electrical &amp; Mechanical Engineers Corps (REME) or the <BR>Transport &amp; Catering Corps as they're the ones that give the most useful quals. <BR>This has several problems - these Corps get to choose first and get the best <BR>men, and the tooth arms (which don't provide much in the way of marketable <BR>skills unless you're a SNCO or officer) get the worst. The other problem is <BR>that in order to keep these qualified men in there are pay bonuses for being <BR>qualified and civvie quals count for more than being a good infantryman. To <BR>make matter worse cooks and the like get extra pay if they have to work in <BR>difficult conditions, but grunts don't because that's their normal job. <BR>Needless to say morale and retention in the tooth arms (Infantry especially) is <BR>poor.<BR><BR>OBTrav - is this why in CT/MT the Army had such a poor re-enlistment roll?<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:23:38 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Source Code request?<BR><BR>On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 10:41:01AM -0800, Thing wrote:<BR>&gt; Dear Sophonts of the list,<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Does anyone out there have, or know the location of, any good routines/<BR>&gt; algorythms for drawing linked/adjacent hexagons like for a subsector map,<BR>&gt; that they would be willing to share with me.<BR><BR>What language are you after?&nbsp; I've got one in Postscript.&nbsp; I can also<BR>dig out some code in C for X11.&nbsp; I might be able to write you some in<BR>a spare 15 minutes, depending on what form of output you need e.g. X11<BR>drawing calls?&nbsp; Floating-point line segment endpoint coordinates?<BR>Drawing into a pixel array?&nbsp; Does it need to do its own clipping?<BR>Can't help you with Windows- or Mac- specific stuff though.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:41:01 -0000<BR>From: "MJ Dougherty" &lt;martinjd@globalnet.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Princess Bride<BR><BR>I have many happy memories of climbing about on wallbars and gym equipment<BR>at the fencing club while quoting the dialogue from "that" duel scene... and<BR>fencing, of course.<BR><BR>Inigo: "Who ARE you?"<BR>Westley: "No-one of consequence."<BR>Inigo: "I MUST know!"<BR>Westley: "Get used to disappointment!"<BR>Inigo:(shrug) "Okay."<BR><BR>Now THAT's dialogue!<BR><BR><BR>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Author: Behind the Throne, The Eye of Glory<BR>www.highbridgepress.com<BR>www.fiction-fantasy.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:12:10 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>&gt;On 18 Feb 2001, at 18:31, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; On 17 Feb 2001, at 16:20, Dave McKenna wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; How about particle accelerators over a vacuum/trace world?&nbsp; :-)<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Good, but meson guns have an advantage when rooting out troops who have<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; serious overhead protection.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; On the other hand, even if they are well dug in, melting the rock to a<BR>&gt;&gt; depth of 10 meters takes them out of action for a long time anyway.<BR>&gt;&gt; Unless *they* have meson guns, you've just eliminated them from *that*<BR>&gt;&gt; battle.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;But that thakes a fiar bit of power from a PAW. However if you've no real<BR>use<BR>&gt;for the surrounding countryside a nuke would do nicely. It's amazing how<BR>&gt;liberating fighting on a planet that's not yours is. :)<BR>&gt;<BR>Hence the origin of the Merc term "Bad War," i.e. any war that does not<BR>follow the basic Imperial rules of war. (Note the lower case, Imperial rules<BR>of war are a policy, not a part of the legal code.)<BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:16:06 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Ah. I assumed that DC would be specialists at jury-rigging pumps and <BR>such, or fire-fighting or some-such, and so I couldn't think of anything <BR>else they might have become."<BR><BR>Mr. Boleyn,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Everyone, and I mean everyone, one board a USN ship is considered part <BR>of the damage control team.&nbsp; It's one of the training exercises the entire <BR>in crew is involved in.&nbsp; Look the the damage taken by the Cole, the Stark, <BR>and the Roberts, plus their WW2 bretheren, without sinking.&nbsp; It's something <BR>the "Haze Grey Canoe Club" has always been proud of.&nbsp; Even the poorly <BR>motivated, "I'm here so I couldn't be drafted", squids of the Vietnam era <BR>saved the Forrestal off Yankee Station in '69 from a horrific fire.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; After the Falklands, procedures and equipment were upgraded even more.&nbsp; <BR>The mucky-mucks took a very hard look at all the troubles the Brits had had.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Perhaps they thought DC specialists would take away from the "total <BR>crew" emphasis.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "So the one area that requires no extra training is the one that gets <BR>locked in? Weird."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Yup, go figure.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Whereas if they allowed rotation between them it would simply be part <BR>of the job to do a year or two on a surface ship, and it might also make a <BR>bit more room for promotion of qualified personnel, and cut down on the <BR>over-promotion of poor quality personnel in the surface vessels."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Yup again.&nbsp; But, as a surface sailor, I'd prefer "low morale" over "low <BR>quality", although we had some.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "We had a similar problem (and AFAIK it's still there) in the Army. As <BR>military pay is low many people join the Army to get quals that will be of <BR>use in civilian life, and once they've got them they leave."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The rule of thumb here is; the more they train you in a useful job, the <BR>more time you have to sign up for.&nbsp; So it was six years for nuc propulsion, <BR>similar time for electronics, air traffic control, and so on.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Wasn't the idea of using military training in high tech fields to <BR>disseminate talent, and the draft to get people into the service in the <BR>first place, one of Dulinor's "reforms"?<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:15:14 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>&gt;Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; Unconscious within 16 seconds (core to 41 C), fitting shortly thereafter.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I suspect that the brain might be close to the first affected organ.<BR>&gt;After all, the head is likely to be the closest part of the body to an<BR>&gt;(overhead) orbital maser.&nbsp; Temperature rise might be even faster there<BR>&gt;than elsewhere -- and my (non-medical) guess would be that it is also<BR>&gt;where temperature rises have the greatest effect.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Skin will die above 48 C. Proteins irreversibly denature above 55 C.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Skin would probably take a lot of the energy.&nbsp; I don't know what the<BR>&gt;attenuation depth in flesh for atmosphere-penetrating microwaves is.<BR>&gt;Strangely, that data is lacking from my references.&nbsp; I understand that<BR>&gt;domestic microwaves are of a frequency that would be absorbed by the<BR>&gt;atmosphere over these sorts of distances and are particularly well<BR>&gt;absorbed by liquid water, so I can't really extrapolate from what's<BR>&gt;known of them to orbital maser weapons.<BR>&gt;<BR>Wouldn't it be possible to shield against this kind of weapon, using either<BR>an overhead net (at the proper 1/4 wavelength weave or even in a helmet) to<BR>prevent the brain being cooked?<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:22:12 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Princess Bride<BR><BR>&gt;From: "MJ Dougherty" &lt;martinjd@globalnet.co.uk&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "I have many happy memories of climbing about on wallbars and gym <BR>equipmentat the fencing club while quoting the dialogue from "that" duel <BR>scene... and fencing, of course."<BR><BR>Inigo: "Who ARE you?"<BR>Westley: "No-one of consequence."<BR>Inigo: "I MUST know!"<BR>Westley: "Get used to disappointment!"<BR>Inigo:(shrug) "Okay."<BR><BR>Now THAT's dialogue!<BR><BR>And;<BR><BR>Miracle Max: "Now, go away or I'll call the Brute Squad."<BR>Fezick:&nbsp; "I'm on the Brute Squad."<BR>Miracle Max: "You ARE the Brute Squad."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; R.I.P. Andre the Giant.&nbsp; We hardly knew ye'<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:22:44 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde<BR><BR>&gt; Whatever, well worth a go. A number of my friends participate in a PBEM<BR>&gt; game, which has been extended by a variant covering the lives of their<BR>&gt; lady Loves (based on the movie 'Dangerous Liasons'). <BR><BR>Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow for <BR>female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and <BR>_Desiree_. Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king even moreso, <BR>but both had their rewards.<BR><BR>There was even allowance for enlisting in the army disguised as a man, <BR>although this involved certain risks also.<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>Also had rules for the Navy -- heavily influenced by Hornblower et al.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:27:08 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>Steve Daniels writes:<BR>&gt;And fundamentally, this is a problem of the court system.&nbsp; In the 3I,<BR>&gt;the courts exist only at the pleasure of the nobility.&nbsp; There are no<BR>&gt;rules of stare decisis, i.e., no binding precedent.&nbsp; Time for appeals<BR>&gt;can be limited or expanded by the noble in charge.<BR><BR>I should like to know what source material you base these claims on.<BR><BR>&gt;There is no precedence.&nbsp; Whatever the noble says.&nbsp; Including seizures<BR>&gt;of your current land, regardless of whatever title you may claim.<BR><BR>Land is likely to be one of the things an Imperial noble would have a really<BR>tough time usurping. Unless it belongs to the Imperium already, all land belongs<BR>to someone who is a citizen of a world government. As such, whatever treaty (or<BR>whatever such a document is called) made when the world joined the Imperium<BR>would spell out the rights surrendered by the world to the Imperium. If this<BR>included any land, said land would be defined to the inch.<BR><BR>&gt;Archduke Norris to Titled Owner of nice hunting land:<BR>&gt;"Nice place you have here.&nbsp; Excuse me.&nbsp; Nice place *I* have here.<BR>&gt;You have 30 seconds to leave forever."<BR><BR>Regardless of the legalities or lack thereoff, That's not at all the way I<BR>picture Norris. <BR><BR>&gt;In canon, there is very little evidence of any significant legal framework,<BR>&gt;and particularly little that might resemble modern democratic systems.<BR><BR>The Duchy of Regina has a senate. It's powers are not defined and it may simply<BR>be advisory, but then again, it may not. Certainly someone in the subsector<BR>bureaucracy found it worth while to kidnap a senator and hide him away.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hans Rancke<BR>University of Copenhagen<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; rancke@diku.dk<BR>- ------------<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 'There was a man,'&nbsp; remarked Captain Eliot, 'who was sentenced<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; to death for stealing a horse from a common. He said to the judge,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; that&nbsp; he&nbsp; thought it hard to be hanged for stealing a horse from a<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; common&nbsp; and&nbsp; the&nbsp; judge&nbsp; answered,&nbsp; "You&nbsp; are not to be hanged for<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; stealing&nbsp; a&nbsp; horse&nbsp; from&nbsp; a common,&nbsp; but that others may not steal<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; horses from commons." '<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 'And do you find,' asked Stephen, 'that in fact horses are not<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; daily stolen from commons? You do not!'<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --- "The Mauritius Command" by Patrick O'Brian<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:25:20 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Draught (Draft?)<BR><BR>&gt;In a message dated 18-Feb-01 9:27:50 PM Central Standard Time,<BR>&gt;owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Was that also the case with the Marines? Or were their voluteers simply<BR>mad?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I don't have a reference to hand, but I believe USMC drafted during WWII,<BR>and<BR>&gt;for a time during the Vietnam era. IIRC the USN managed to get by on<BR>&gt;enlistment during the first few months of WWII, but began taking draftees<BR>as<BR>&gt;well when the Army tightened things up.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;LKW<BR><BR>As I recall during the Vietnam era the way it worked is the USMC processor<BR>would go up to the line of draftees and pick his allowed number of guys from<BR>the line, often just the first xx guys&nbsp; or the last xx guys. The legend goes<BR>that since the draftees were in alphabetical order while in line, if you saw<BR>a Marine named Larsen the chances were that he was a volunteer.<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:32:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>Actually, it's just Journalist, not Journalist mate.&nbsp; We're the public<BR>affairs guys.&nbsp; On ships we run the TV and radio stations and put out<BR>the ship's newspaper and cruise book.&nbsp; The only ships you can find us<BR>on any more are carriers and some of the larger amphibs.<BR><BR>ICmen are still around; we have five in my reserve unit.&nbsp; DCmen are<BR>also still around as we have several at the reserve center.&nbsp; RMs have<BR>been rolled into Information Technicians (ITs).<BR><BR>For some of the background rates that run the Navy (and might have<BR>counterparts in the IN), consider the yeoman (secretary), personnelman,<BR>disbursing clerk, postal clerk, religious program specialist, dental<BR>technician and hospital corpsman.<BR><BR><BR><BR>- --- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "Put the two together, and I'm an Electronics Technician First<BR>&gt; Class <BR>&gt; (ET1)."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mr. Gilly's post, plus that of Mr. Harris, has started me<BR>&gt; thinking <BR>&gt; about ratings (job classifications) within the IN.&nbsp; Although HG2 does<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; provide some clues, what sort of job classifications do you think<BR>&gt; would <BR>&gt; exist in the Imperial Navy?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Missileman, naturally.&nbsp; Engineering might split up a bit; ie.<BR>&gt; drives, <BR>&gt; mechanics, electrical, electronic, etc.&nbsp; Would screens be split up<BR>&gt; too, a <BR>&gt; Dampersman 2nd class and a Chief Globe Operator?&nbsp; Would beam weapons<BR>&gt; be <BR>&gt; divvied up between lasers, fusion, and plasma guns?&nbsp; How about spinal<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; mounts?&nbsp; The ancillary rates, each as important as the ones mentioned<BR>&gt; above, <BR>&gt; could be interesting.&nbsp; Would vacc suit maintenance rate one?&nbsp; Comm<BR>&gt; gear <BR>&gt; would of course, along with computer work.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mr. Harris mentioned he's a JO, journalists' mate, I particular<BR>&gt; type of <BR>&gt; sailor I never ran into and have no idea what the actually job would<BR>&gt; entail. <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The USN has many "odd", "quirky", or just plain old fashioned job <BR>&gt; classifications.&nbsp; Some are useful, some are not.&nbsp; (There was an award<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; winning series of articles in the WSJ last year detailing the waste <BR>&gt; associated with the US military's institutional inertia.)<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Names change meaning too.&nbsp; I was a machinist mate, but never ran<BR>&gt; a <BR>&gt; lathe.&nbsp; My early 1900's predecessors might have, but by 1980 we'd<BR>&gt; morphed <BR>&gt; into something different.&nbsp; How much of that would occur in the IN<BR>&gt; over 1000 <BR>&gt; years?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In my lifetime, boiler techs have all but disappeared from the<BR>&gt; USN.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; They used to be one of the biggest groups, but all new combatants are<BR>&gt; either <BR>&gt; gas turbines or nucs.&nbsp; No fossil steam plants are built anymore.&nbsp; I<BR>&gt; saw IC <BR>&gt; men (internal communications) and DC men (damage control) disappear<BR>&gt; during <BR>&gt; the 6 years I was in.&nbsp; Not all tech changes force jobs to disappear<BR>&gt; though.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; The WSJ article used lithographers as an example.&nbsp; They were useless<BR>&gt; in my <BR>&gt; day, the 80's, and yet are still "working" aboard carriers as late as<BR>&gt; 2000.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "...and was advanced to E4 the day I completed RM A school, four<BR>&gt; and a <BR>&gt; half months later. Like Mr Whipsnade, I made E5 and E6 in the usual<BR>&gt; manner.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; (Don't expect to ever see E7, but I have three years left....)"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As an explanation to the rest of the list, advancement in the<BR>&gt; Navy <BR>&gt; depends on a few things.&nbsp; You're tested of&nbsp; course, but simply having<BR>&gt; a <BR>&gt; pulse is enough to pass.&nbsp; I aced mine, plus the associated course<BR>&gt; work, but <BR>&gt; that wouldn't have advanced me alone one bit.&nbsp; Another requirement is<BR>&gt; a <BR>&gt; certain amount of time at each rank before being "allowed" to try for<BR>&gt; your <BR>&gt; next rate, along with how long you've been at your current rank;<BR>&gt; seniority.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; The third, and most important, is how many people are ahead of you. <BR>&gt; This <BR>&gt; one is the tail that wags the dog.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In a popular job is said to be "filled".&nbsp; The number of people<BR>&gt; allowed <BR>&gt; to enter it is strictly limited and promotion follows a "domino"<BR>&gt; pattern.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; It's like a full night club you want to get into; 2 people got to<BR>&gt; leave <BR>&gt; before 2 can get in.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sub duty is very popular; more pay, barracks ashore, the<BR>&gt; "cachet" of <BR>&gt; the silent service, etc.&nbsp; So my friends who did the same job as I did<BR>&gt; on a <BR>&gt; sub advanced no where as fast as I did.&nbsp; The USN hemorrhaged surface<BR>&gt; nucs.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; They simply could not keep them in the service.&nbsp; There was no one<BR>&gt; ahead of <BR>&gt; me when it came time for promotion; I could have tubed the tests and<BR>&gt; still <BR>&gt; gotten my bump.&nbsp; Conversely, there are so many many people in the<BR>&gt; subs, my <BR>&gt; nuc counterpart, even he he aced his test, had to wait for someone to<BR>&gt; retire <BR>&gt; and the ripple to reach him.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; That's why I could have made E-7 in 6 years, 9 months and Mr.<BR>&gt; Gilly is <BR>&gt; hoping to do the same in 20 years.&nbsp; It ahs nothing to do with smarts,<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; skills, quality of work; just how many people are "ahead" of him.<BR>&gt; _________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt; Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 <BR>a year!&nbsp; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:38:37 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 0:16, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Mr. Boleyn,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Everyone, and I mean everyone, one board a USN ship is considered part of<BR>&gt; the damage control team.&nbsp; It's one of the training exercises the entire in crew<BR>&gt; is involved in.&nbsp; Look the the damage taken by the Cole, the Stark, and the<BR>&gt; Roberts, plus their WW2 bretheren, without sinking.<BR><BR>IIRC the report on the Stark incident concluded that if her damage control had <BR>any worse than it was she would've sunk, and she had the best in the fleet at <BR>the time.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; After the Falklands, procedures and equipment were upgraded even more.&nbsp; The<BR>&gt; mucky-mucks took a very hard look at all the troubles the Brits had had.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Perhaps they thought DC specialists would take away from the "total <BR>&gt; crew" emphasis.<BR><BR>Lesson 1 - don't build ships with aluminium hulls. Lesson 2 - encourage your <BR>enemies to use missiles with warheads that work. HMS Sheffield caught fire <BR>because the unexploded missiles rocket motor ignited the aluminium, whereas the <BR>warhead wouldn't have generated enough heat to do this.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "We had a similar problem (and AFAIK it's still there) in the Army. As<BR>&gt; military pay is low many people join the Army to get quals that will be of use<BR>&gt; in civilian life, and once they've got them they leave."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The rule of thumb here is; the more they train you in a useful job, the<BR>&gt; more time you have to sign up for.&nbsp; So it was six years for nuc propulsion,<BR>&gt; similar time for electronics, air traffic control, and so on.<BR><BR>No 'time in' requirement in the Army here, just a period (5 years?) afterwards <BR>during which they can call you up when they feel the need.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Wasn't the idea of using military training in high tech fields to <BR>&gt; disseminate talent, and the draft to get people into the service in the <BR>&gt; first place, one of Dulinor's "reforms"?<BR><BR>I don't recall. Quite possibly, though.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:39:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>- --- Rupert Boleyn &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&lt;&lt;Why is being a nuc on a sib considered a different job than on a <BR>cruiser? From what you're saying personnel aren't tranferrred from one<BR>to the other, and yet it sounds like they're the same job. This seems a<BR>bit silly.&gt;&gt;<BR><BR>The surface and sub communities are completely different kettles of<BR>fish.&nbsp; One has to volunteer for sub duty and then go to lots of schools<BR>and special training.&nbsp; <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 <BR>a year!&nbsp; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:41:59 -0500<BR>From: Justin Kim &lt;justinki@bellatlantic.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>At 11:01 PM +0000 2/19/01, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;OBTrav - Is there a job or ship type in the IN that's viewed as <BR>&gt;particularily odious?&nbsp; Or one that is viewed with great favor? <BR>&gt;Could this explain a PC's, with a 12 year navy career, decision to <BR>&gt;"retire"?<BR>&gt;"They cut me orders to a monitor, so I got out.&nbsp; A monitor?!!?&nbsp; I'm <BR>&gt;a cruiser man!"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Elizabeth Moon wrote a series of books set in a <BR>Traveller-like universe (The Serrano Legasy books starting with <BR>"Hunting Party").&nbsp; The characters are all career navy and are worth a <BR>read for anyone interested in the IN.&nbsp; Moon spent some time in the <BR>Marines, and I'm told the books have a ring of authenticity WRT life <BR>in the military.&nbsp; I now mentally pattern the IN after Moon's books.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; In Moon's Regular Space Service, there are legions of ratings <BR>that take care of the ship's environment.&nbsp; The environmental control <BR>systems consist largely of tanks of noxious, highly dangerous <BR>bacterial soups that break down waste produced by the crew.&nbsp; That <BR>always seemed to me to be duty of a rather odious nature.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; In the IN, I'd imagine groundside duty on some backwater <BR>would be the least desirable.&nbsp; As for shipboard duty, I'd guess a <BR>fleet resupply ship or maybe a barge hauler, assuming the IN doesn't <BR>contract that kind of work out.<BR><BR>Justin<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:40:00 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt;On 19 Feb 2001, at 9:03, Michael Daumen wrote:<BR>&gt;&lt;SNIP&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I can't imagine the average noble in charge of his world's corporate<BR>court<BR>&gt;&gt; woud have the resources or willingness to irk both parties of the<BR>potential<BR>&gt;&gt; suit.&nbsp; If a corp was powerful enough they would have other nobles willing<BR>to<BR>&gt;&gt; intercede for them.&nbsp; And afterwards they'd remember which noble stuck it<BR>to<BR>&gt;&gt; them and be able to punish them accordingly if they wanted to.&nbsp; Or, on<BR>&gt;&gt; planets where the noble is known for delaying tactics, the parties could<BR>&gt;&gt; work out their own decision, or choose an alternate court, and then Sir<BR>&gt;&gt; Whoozit is out the court fees.&nbsp; A noble who delays risks the disapproval<BR>of<BR>&gt;&gt; the Emperor's stated trade policy, in most cases.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I'm nowhere near a lawyer (either physically, or professionally), but I<BR>&gt;was pondering - if a nobles regularly had to adjudicate between<BR>&gt;possibly conflicting self-interests (the state vs. his shares in<BR>&gt;megacorp.X), wouldn't that be seen (by his peers and higher-ranking<BR>&gt;nobles, if not the population at large) as a Bad Thing ripe for<BR>&gt;corruption?&nbsp; If so, perhaps nobles delegate the judicial duties to<BR>&gt;professional judges (elected/appointed by the local peerage?), with<BR>&gt;final appeal to the noble themself in extreme cases.&nbsp; They'd be upper-<BR>&gt;level courts, not the lower and/or common level courts for regular<BR>&gt;criminal/civil actions, or lower-level 'imperial commercial courts'.<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;Flame On&gt;<BR><BR>Gee would that be like legislators making laws regulating industries that<BR>give them money through Political Action Committees (PAC's). yeah I think<BR>the population at large would do something about that right away.<BR><BR>&lt;Flame Off&gt;<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:49:34 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Ship habitability<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:<BR>&gt;From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "The general improvement in crew quality this led to was one of the <BR>&gt;reasons it was able to outfight the RN on a unit by unit basis."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "When? If you're refering to the war of 1812 I suggest you look at <BR>&gt;_all_ the actions that took place in that war."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Mea culpa.&nbsp; You are correct of course.&nbsp; I should have inserted the word <BR>&gt;"mostly" in the sentence above between "to" and "outfight".<BR><BR>The Americans turned out to be a match for the British, which was a salutary<BR>shock for the RN. However, many of the American single-ship victories were<BR>facilitated by having twice the broadside weight in metal and scantlings twice<BR>as thick.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Churchill in his "History of the English Speaking Peoples" does allow <BR>&gt;that the infant USN was mainly overwhelmed rather than out fought.&nbsp; I can't <BR>&gt;think of a more vocal booster of the RN then WSC; however his mother was <BR>&gt;American.&nbsp; 8^)<BR><BR>I can recommend "The Age of Fighting Sail" by C.S.Forester (of Hornblower fame).<BR>In it he gives a very thorough description of the events leading up to the war<BR>and of all naval action taken during it.<BR><BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn<BR>&gt;IIRC earlier on the US ships overwhelmed the RN ships by being bigger and <BR>&gt;newer, and later when the British built two-deck frigates to match (and brought <BR>&gt;their naval spending back up) the US ships had all kinds of trouble.<BR><BR>There were no two-deck frigates. There couldn't be, since part of the definition<BR>of being a frigate was not having two decks. The US. Congress had refused to<BR>approve the building of ships-of-the-line but had allowed 10 frigates without<BR>specifying a budget. The master shipwright accordingly made them the biggest and<BR>best frigates he possibly could, with 44 guns against the British 32- and 38-gun<BR>frigates (and with bigger guns to boot) and ship sides the thickness of<BR>ships-of-the-line. Consequently the American frigates trew a heavier broadside<BR>AND were able to take greater punishment than the British.<BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3704<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, February 19 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3705<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Draught (Draft?)<BR>Re: Source Code request?<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Imperial legal structures&nbsp; (was Trade Wars)<BR>RE: TGOOs<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Source Code request?<BR>Megatraveller &amp; CT<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Source Code request?<BR>Re: Source Code request?<BR>Re: Source Code request?<BR>Re: Source Code request?<BR>Planet map template (again)<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Civility and Politeness<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:06:58 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Draught (Draft?)<BR><BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "...if you saw a Marine named Larsen the chances were that he was a <BR>volunteer."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Carlino,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Touche!&nbsp; The list might be dedicated to Traveller, but we also play the <BR>verbal version of En Garde.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; My father, Larsen Senior, served in the Marines.&nbsp; He let know in no <BR>uncertain terms that he ever saw a marine named Larsen he would volunteer to <BR>do a tap dance on said marine's buttocks.&nbsp; Larsen Junior opted to become a <BR>squid.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:25:58 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Source Code request?<BR><BR>Hello Tim,<BR>&nbsp; You couldn't by chance do the same for Visual Basic could you - regards<BR>to drawing hexgrids on a map?<BR><BR>&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>PS - I tried your algorithm and ran into a problem.&nbsp; Since your algoritm<BR>was a yes/no set up, I tried setting it via Excel.&nbsp; It should have worked.<BR>Unfortunately, it didn't work as precisely as I'd have hoped.&nbsp; Hopefully, I<BR>was dense and did something wrong with your formula, but I suspect that I<BR>didn't.&nbsp; Perhaps if I applied the same "logic" to your formula that I did<BR>with mine, it might work better.&nbsp; Will have to test it out...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:22:07 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "IIRC the report on the Stark incident concluded that if her damage <BR>control had any worse than it was she would've sunk, and she had the best in <BR>the fleet at the time."<BR><BR>Mr. Boleyn,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Fleet damage control school doesn't grade on a curve; just because the <BR>Stark was judged to be excellent, doesn't mean that other ships couldn't <BR>achieve the same ranking.&nbsp; Stark's excellent rating allowed her to survive.&nbsp; <BR>Other ship's surely had the same rating too.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "No 'time in' requirement in the Army here, just a period (5 years?) <BR>afterwards during which they can call you up when they feel the need."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; We have a similar mechanism here called "critical rates".&nbsp; They keep <BR>tabs on al sorts of specialists with an eye towards coaxing them back for <BR>certain jobs or a simple shanghaing.&nbsp; I recieved an intriguing letter during <BR>the Gulf War build up, although what they were thinking I don't know.&nbsp; I <BR>suspect they were simply mass mailing all the folks on the "critical job" <BR>lists as a precaution.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; They did "call up" a few beachmasters and army support types; water <BR>purification, transport, etc.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; When the BBs were reactivated in the early 80's, they used the same <BR>mechanism to bring back the old 16 inch turret crews in order to train the <BR>new ones.<BR><BR>OBTrav - What would the Imperium's (or more accurately, colonial navy's) use <BR>of reservists be like?&nbsp; Could it be a plausible excuse for a GM to pull <BR>together a group of PCs and ship them off to a certain adventure?<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:11:43 +1000<BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>&gt; From: "Rupert Boleyn" <BR>&gt; On 19 Feb 2001, at 22:44, Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Of course, it is quite conceivable that the reason why Australia is<BR>&gt; &gt; poaching Kiwi personnel is because there is a chronic shortfall of<BR>&gt; &gt; recruits and a low retention rate in the Australian military too...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Of course, though one wonders where they're going...<BR><BR>A scary thought.&nbsp; : )<BR><BR>(Well, of course most of them are just getting "real jobs" in the civilian<BR>world, but that's boring...)<BR><BR>Oh, on the WO1/WO2 thing:&nbsp; In the Australian Army WO1s are senior to WO2s. <BR>Presumably the NZ case would be the same.<BR><BR>(My memory told me this was true, but I checked it on the ADF website.)<BR><BR>Alan Bradley<BR>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:24:55 +1000<BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Imperial legal structures&nbsp; (was Trade Wars)<BR><BR>&gt; From: "Trevor, Peter" <BR>&gt; Sounds good to me.&nbsp; Though I suspect the Constitution would have<BR>&gt; further changed by 1100.&nbsp; My feeling is that the 3I Constitution<BR>&gt; of 1100&nbsp; would&nbsp; be&nbsp; like&nbsp; the&nbsp; modern&nbsp; day&nbsp; version&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; UK<BR>&gt; 'constitution': a body of laws&nbsp; and&nbsp; traditions&nbsp; rather&nbsp; than&nbsp; a<BR>&gt; single document.&nbsp; The 'static-ness' of an unwritten constitution<BR>&gt; being provided by the desire of the&nbsp; establishment&nbsp; to&nbsp; preserve<BR>&gt; the status quo.<BR><BR>Yeah.&nbsp; The other thing is that even written constitutions tend to be<BR>associated with conventions that can significantly modify the written text.<BR>For example, by the strict letter of its written Constitution, Australia<BR>is a dictatorship ruled by the Governor-General, who is accountable only to<BR>the British monarch.&nbsp; Parliament exists, but doesn't really do anything.<BR><BR>&gt; This would explain Dulinor's belief that&nbsp; reform&nbsp; was&nbsp; possible,<BR>&gt; followed by his exasperation at the slow *pace* of reform.&nbsp; Were<BR>&gt; a written Constitution document in place&nbsp; then&nbsp; reform&nbsp; (of&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; nature Dulinor championed) would not have been possible&nbsp; at&nbsp; all<BR>&gt; without Strephon sitting down to rewrite that Constitution.&nbsp; But<BR>&gt; an unwritten 'constitution' allows change but such change&nbsp; would<BR>&gt; be resisted and slow.<BR><BR>Could be.&nbsp; The key is the resistance to it.&nbsp; Dulinor's reforms would have<BR>tended to undercut the position of major sections of the nobility, and so<BR>had no real chance of success.<BR><BR>&gt; Thus, Arbellatra's 'constitution' was the 3I's&nbsp; version&nbsp; of&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; Magna Carta rather than a US style Constitution.<BR><BR>One of the rude things that has been said about the Magna Carta is that it<BR>was a document establishing the principle that barons could do anything<BR>they wanted to their serfs without any external restraint, and that none of<BR>the liberties it established applied to the serfs themselves.<BR><BR>The Ine Givar might have something similar to say about Arbellatra's<BR>constitution.<BR><BR>Alan Bradley<BR>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:22:18 -0500<BR>From: "Chris Seamans" &lt;semo@pil.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TGOOs<BR><BR>Dean wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;If anyone hadn't guessed, 'bang' is ancient hacker (computer expert, not<BR>&gt;cracker) slang for the exclamation mark.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Actually, the term "bang" for exclamation point goes way back to the dark<BR>old days of typesetters, proofreaders, ad men, graphic designers and the<BR>like. I've known some people in the past who would have had an apoplectic<BR>fit upon hearing that the term was invented by computer-people of any<BR>stripe.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Hmmmm... That came out as being much more enigmatic and bizarre than I<BR>intended, so I guess I have to explain myself. Back at the dawn of the last<BR>decade, I studied under some old-school graphic designers. Though the<BR>desktop publishing movement was already well underway at that point, it was<BR>still possible for graphic designers to get by with the traditional tools of<BR>the trade (huge books with pages and pages of fonts, rulers, t-squares,<BR>rubber cement, hot wax machines, copious amounts of paper, and so on).<BR>Anyone with two brain cells to rub together could see that people wielding<BR>such tools were making buggy-whips, which didn't sit well with my teachers<BR>at all, and so they directed more than a little venom in the direction of<BR>computers in general, and the computerized graphic design industry<BR>specifically...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Which is why they would have had a fit if it was suggested that<BR>computer-people of any sort invented the term "bang" for exclamation point.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:26:51 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "The surface and sub communities are completely different kettles of<BR>fish.&nbsp; One has to volunteer for sub duty and then go to lots of schools<BR>and special training."<BR><BR>Mr. Harris,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Except for nucs, alas.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I distinctly remember ICs being folded into the EM ranks during my <BR>tour.&nbsp; The nuc ICs were all ticked off about having to buy new "crows" for <BR>their uniforms.&nbsp; The one or two DC types had the same squawk.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Are both these rates "hanging on" in the reserve formations?<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:42:11 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 1:22, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; OBTrav - What would the Imperium's (or more accurately, colonial navy's) use of<BR>&gt; reservists be like?&nbsp; Could it be a plausible excuse for a GM to pull together a<BR>&gt; group of PCs and ship them off to a certain adventure?<BR><BR>The impression I get is that the IN, Marines, etc. don't call up their <BR>seperated veterans. Scouts do, of course. As for the Imperial Army, Doug Berry <BR>should know. :) However if you served in a Colonial Fleet and are in-system <BR>when they need you some planetary government probably have a call-up policy.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:23:29 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>&gt;On 18 Feb 2001, at 17:14, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; By the way while Tridents may indeed have 6-9 man berthing the typical<BR>&gt;&gt; carrier or cruiser has 30-150 person berthing, which gives a completely<BR>&gt;&gt; different environment. You can get to know 6-9 people. Getting to know<BR>150<BR>&gt;&gt; people when all are on different watches and work in different<BR>specialties<BR>&gt;&gt; is difficult. It's like living at the Y. You can't leave your towel<BR>hanging on<BR>&gt;&gt; the rack without worrying about somebody taking it. This doesn't even<BR>cover the<BR>&gt;&gt; difficulty a senior petty officer has having to live among the people<BR>(s)he<BR>&gt;&gt; supervises. It's like living in the same room as your kids.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Good Gods! What on earth possesd the USN to do that? This is the first time<BR>&gt;I've ever heard of a serious military organisation that houses senior NCOs<BR>with<BR>&gt;their men (barring infantry in trenches) on that scale. Ick.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;--<BR><BR>It's all where you draw the line. In the U.S. Air Force, Army and Marines<BR>the top 4 enlisted pay grades are counted as "senior" NCO's. (Most foreign<BR>navies follow the same practice.) In the USN you're not a senior NCO until<BR>you make E-7, Chief Petty Officer. So until you make CPO you have no special<BR>privileges. It's part of the continual creep of loss of privileges that is<BR>going on in the Navy. Up until the 1980's PO1's at least had separate<BR>messes, where they could network and unwind separately from their troops.<BR>This privilege was erased by the Navy, by eliminating this space on new<BR>ships as they were built. Meanwhile the responsibilities given to these men<BR>and women keep increasing.<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:40:22 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 21:23, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; It's all where you draw the line. In the U.S. Air Force, Army and Marines<BR>&gt; the top 4 enlisted pay grades are counted as "senior" NCO's. (Most foreign<BR>&gt; navies follow the same practice.) In the USN you're not a senior NCO until<BR>&gt; you make E-7, Chief Petty Officer. So until you make CPO you have no special<BR>&gt; privileges. It's part of the continual creep of loss of privileges that is going<BR>&gt; on in the Navy. Up until the 1980's PO1's at least had separate messes, where<BR>&gt; they could network and unwind separately from their troops. This privilege was<BR>&gt; erased by the Navy, by eliminating this space on new ships as they were built.<BR>&gt; Meanwhile the responsibilities given to these men and women keep increasing.<BR><BR>Sounds like there's going to be trouble over that, sooner or later. For us <BR>while in camp the Corporals (including Lance Corporals) have their own bar, <BR>though quite a few of the Corporals used to sneak into the "baggies bar" (other <BR>ranks) to be with their men once they were out of uniform, even though it was a <BR>chargeable offence (it mean you were impersonating another rank).<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:41:42 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Source Code request?<BR><BR>Hi Hal,<BR>There is an algorithm for printing out a hex grid buried in my Quick Basic <BR>program at:<BR>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/J_Lambert/TWorlds.htm<BR>This could be modified to draw lines to replace the "/", "\", and "_" <BR>characters. Hope this helps.<BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Hello Tim,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; You couldn't by chance do the same for Visual Basic could you - regards<BR>&gt;to drawing hexgrids on a map?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:54:35 -0500<BR>From: "Michael Daumen" &lt;daumen@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Megatraveller &amp; CT<BR><BR>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR><BR>- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C09ABE.8C1C42E0<BR>Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; charset="Windows-1252"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR>In y'all's opinion, what in the Megatraveller universe can be readily =<BR>applied to an CT/GT campaign?&nbsp; Some has been said about Fighting Ships =<BR>of the Shattered Imperium and the COACC manual, but what of the =<BR>Rebellion Sourcebook, Encyclopedia or Diaspora Sector? =20<BR><BR>Just wondering . . .<BR><BR>- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C09ABE.8C1C42E0<BR>Content-Type: text/html;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; charset="Windows-1252"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR>&lt;!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"&gt;<BR>&lt;HEAD&gt;<BR>&lt;META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =<BR>http-equiv=3DContent-Type&gt;<BR>&lt;META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR&gt;<BR>&lt;STYLE&gt;&lt;/STYLE&gt;<BR>&lt;/HEAD&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;DIV&gt;<FONT size=3>In y'all's opinion, what in the Megatraveller =<BR>universe can be=20<BR>readily applied to an CT/GT campaign?&amp;nbsp; Some has been said about =<BR>Fighting=20<BR>Ships of the Shattered Imperium and the COACC manual, but what of the =<BR>Rebellion=20<BR>Sourcebook, Encyclopedia or Diaspora Sector?&amp;nbsp; </FONT>&lt;/DIV&gt;<BR>&lt;DIV&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;<BR>&lt;DIV&gt;<FONT size=3>Just wondering . . .</FONT>&lt;/DIV&gt;<BR><BR>- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C09ABE.8C1C42E0--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:57:20 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Over the remaining time in my 6 year enlistment, I earned E-5 and E-6<BR>&gt;the regular way.&nbsp; I would have been promoted to E-7 the year I got out."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Good Lord. Our Territorials (which I served in) are known for fast<BR>&gt;promotions (partly an attempt to improve retention, partly so people have<BR>&gt;the rank and pay equal to their responsibilites) and I took five years to<BR>&gt;get to Lance Corporal(though the average was more like 3-4 years)."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mr. Boleyn,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Good Lord indeed.&nbsp; Thanks to this rank inflation for certain shipboard<BR>&gt;jobs (all of them high tech) there is quite a gulf between parts of the<BR>&gt;crew.&nbsp; On my cruiser, nuc engineering barely dealt with the rest of the<BR>&gt;crew.&nbsp; Of course, it didn't help that most of our workspaces were off<BR>limits<BR>&gt;to them due to either radiation exposure or security reasons.&nbsp; We were<BR>&gt;almost two different crews.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Non-nuc divisions (work groups for specific jobs; ie electrcians,<BR>&gt;cooks, etc.) had NCOs of a more "normal" age who'd been in for a more<BR>&gt;"normal" amount of time.&nbsp; On our mess deck there was a lounge in which all<BR>&gt;E-6's were supposed to eat in.&nbsp; I never did.&nbsp; None of the nucs never did.<BR>&gt;We had nothing in common with the regular E-6's, some of which were in<BR>their<BR>&gt;late thirties, who did eat there.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; We loathed them for being brainless, lifer scum, just waiting for<BR>their<BR>&gt;20 year pensions, and not having the balls or brains to make it in the real<BR>&gt;world.&nbsp; I'm mortally sure they had equally poor opinions of us.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Anyone who re-enlisted in nuc engineering beyond their original 6<BR>years<BR>&gt;was thought of poorly too.&nbsp; He was socially ostracized at the very least.<BR>&gt;My division went close to 3 years without one happening.&nbsp; Trying to keep<BR>&gt;engineering manned with the poor quality of life and the attitude displayed<BR>&gt;by the current crew was next to impossible.&nbsp; Like bailing with a seive.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Having Served in both the nuclear and regular USN I can attest to Mr.<BR>Whipsnade's description of the general quality of the Navy's nuclear trained<BR>sailors. As a group they are of above average intelligence, and are very<BR>technically competent at their profession. They are generally poor sailors<BR>in the traditional sense, undisciplined, with no respect for naval<BR>tradition, and little interest in mastering the skills of naval warfare. One<BR>of the biggest mistakes the Navy made was making these people enlisted<BR>rather than specialist grade warrant officers. This was a decision made by<BR>Admiral Hyman J. Rickover in the early days of the Nuclear Navy.<BR><BR>No offense meant to Mr Whipsnade or any other member on this list. He is<BR>quite right that most nuclear enlisted persons have little in common with<BR>the other, more mature, senior petty officers. You can't expect a 22 year<BR>old with a high level of technical skill, but very little life experience to<BR>see things like the need for military discipline in the same way that a 30<BR>year old who has had to make life-or-death decisions does. Some people are<BR>just not cut out for a life of military service. That's cool. It's one of<BR>the reasons we have 4 and 6 year enlistments instead of 20 year enlistments<BR>like the Romans did.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:12:29 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Source Code request?<BR><BR>At 02:41 AM 2/20/2001, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Hi Hal,<BR>&gt;There is an algorithm for printing out a hex grid buried in my Quick Basic <BR>&gt;program at:<BR>&gt;http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/J_Lambert/TWorlds.htm<BR>&gt;This could be modified to draw lines to replace the "/", "\", and "_" <BR>&gt;characters. Hope this helps.<BR>&gt;John<BR><BR>Hello John,<BR>&nbsp; By chance, was it you who sent me the C programming "distance finder"<BR>pseudo-code?&nbsp; If so, I apologize for mis-attributing it to someone else...<BR><BR>&nbsp; I will look at the coding.&nbsp; Perhaps I can make use of it &lt;grin&gt;.<BR><BR>I got my FAR TRADER program up and running in VB Saturday.&nbsp; It was crude<BR>and such, but it did generate cargo lots, their Terms of Shipping, and the<BR>like.&nbsp; But now I am thinking about long term stuff for the program, as I<BR>can see I've got some ground laying work to complete.&nbsp; First problem I see<BR>is that I missed totally the implication that each world has a baseline of<BR>how much cargo it is shipping.&nbsp; The shipping volume changes from week to<BR>week much like the average shipping price chances and the like.&nbsp; I also now<BR>realize that I have to account for whether the world is considered to be on<BR>the trade routes or not.&nbsp; Just means that I have to add to the Database<BR>listing a field for "Trade status": heavy, medium, light, non-existant (or<BR>whatever the corresponding values would be in FAR TRADER).&nbsp; Sooner or later<BR>though, I'm going to want to be able to set it up so that I present the<BR>screen/graphic of the spinward marches rather than using a input box that<BR>accepts hex identification numbers...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:11:38 -0800<BR>From: "Thing" &lt;thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Source Code request?<BR><BR>On Monday, February 19, 2001 3:23 PM<BR>Timothy Little said,<BR><BR>&gt; What language are you after?&nbsp; I've got one in Postscript.&nbsp; I can also<BR>&gt; dig out some code in C for X11.&nbsp; I might be able to write you some in<BR>&gt; a spare 15 minutes, depending on what form of output you need e.g. X11<BR>&gt; drawing calls?&nbsp; Floating-point line segment endpoint coordinates?<BR>&gt; Drawing into a pixel array?&nbsp; Does it need to do its own clipping?<BR>&gt; Can't help you with Windows- or Mac- specific stuff though.<BR><BR>D'oh!&nbsp; I realized after I posted that I should have been more specific, but<BR>I was hurriedly posting while waiting for a compile and before running into<BR>a meeting.<BR><BR>C code would be great.&nbsp; I mainly do windows based coding Visual Basic &amp;<BR>Visual C/C++.&nbsp; I can handle the clipping and the actual platform specific<BR>drawing routines.&nbsp; What I am mainly looking for is how to figure out where<BR>the vertices of the hexagons are on a X,Y coordinate system for the line<BR>drawing routines.&nbsp; I tried to do some calculating based on the angles, but<BR>something in my math or my measurements are off as the hexagons come out<BR>distorted.<BR><BR>I grabbed code from www.scintegration.com,<BR>(http://www.scintegration.com/doodle/gallery_of_turtle_programs/regularunifo<BR>rmtessellations.htm)<BR>for doing Regular Uniform Tessellations, but haven't&nbsp; had time to try it.<BR><BR>I also fond some Hexagonal lattice code from<BR>(http://www.swin.edu.au/astronomy/pbourke/geometry/hexagon/), but it is<BR>designed to create lattices based on Spiral Honeycomb Mosaic indexing system<BR>and would be a pain to adapt for maps and such.<BR><BR>If you have any code examples that might help, I would be more than happy to<BR>look at them.<BR><BR>G.D.D.<BR>ThingUnderTheStairs.<BR>====================<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:20:03 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Source Code request?<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR>&nbsp; Just your average friendly idiot sending to the list mail he meant for<BR>private consumption &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; I'm used to the GURPS mailing list where you<BR>respond to the sender rather than to the mailing list when you hit the<BR>respond button.<BR>&nbsp; Ignore what you saw.&nbsp; Keep moving Citizen.&nbsp; Fnord.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:16:45 -0800<BR>From: "Thing" &lt;thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Source Code request?<BR><BR>On Monday, February 19, 2001 8:25 PM<BR>hal@buffnet.net said,<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; You couldn't by chance do the same for Visual Basic could you - regards<BR>&gt; to drawing hexgrids on a map?<BR><BR>Once I get my code working ( I plan on doing both C++ &amp; VB) I would be happy<BR>to share the relevant code with you.&nbsp; I'm playing with the directX 8.0<BR>drawing functions right now, but I could quickly&nbsp; whip together code to draw<BR>to a VB form based on a passed hDc.&nbsp; A VB 6.0 class or just a function and<BR>declares would be no problem once I get the algorithm working properly.<BR><BR>G.D.D.<BR>ThingUnderTheStairs.<BR>====================<BR>"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!], 'Pray, Mr.<BR>Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers<BR>come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas<BR>that could provoke such a question." -Charles Babbage<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:16:46 -0800<BR>From: Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Planet map template (again)<BR><BR>Greetings,<BR><BR>Some kind sole on the list sent me a planetary map template in Adobe<BR>Illustrator 1.1 format.&nbsp; Naturally, I have lost this file, so if that kind<BR>soul could resend it, I would be most appreciative.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.<BR>They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Daniel Webster<BR>- -- <BR>Tod L Glenn<BR>webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.spinwardmarches.com<BR>http://www.solsec.org<BR>http://www.grandsurvey.com<BR>http://travellerguns.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:24:30 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>Gerry Harris&nbsp; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;The Marines and the Air Force are also both all-volunteer<BR>&gt;organizations.&nbsp; Historically, only the Army has had the draft.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The Marines consider themselve an elite, so I'm not sure they would<BR>&gt;accept any reluctant warriors ...<BR><BR>Sure, they will accept them, run them through a grinder and spit them<BR>out before they have served long enough to disqualify them from the<BR>draft, therefore the army gets them anyway. (unless they survive the<BR>marines and adjust to the marine way)<BR><BR>Charles<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:25:53 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "This privilege was erased by the Navy, by eliminating this space on <BR>new ships as they were built.&nbsp; Meanwhile the responsibilities given to these <BR>men and women keep increasing."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Sounds like there's going to be trouble over that, sooner or later..."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Boleyn,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; It's part and partial of the "rank(or rate) inflation" we talked about <BR>earlier.&nbsp; In order to attract the people they need to handle more technical <BR>jobs, they have to offer more pay.&nbsp; Just providing training isn't enough.&nbsp; <BR>With an antiquated pay system based on X amount of money for Y amount of <BR>braid on your arm, they have to start the tech rates out at a higher rank <BR>and advance them faster.&nbsp; It's institutional inertia.&nbsp; They quite simply <BR>can't think of another way.&nbsp; They can't even imagine about thinking about <BR>another way.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The E-4's who worked for me did jobs more similar to E-1s and 2s in <BR>other divisions.&nbsp; They had to, we had no one who ranked any lower.&nbsp; I was an <BR>E-6, PO1, and my fellow E-6s and I had nothing in common with the real PO1s. <BR>&nbsp; My ship had a PO1 mess and lounge, but I never step foot in it unless <BR>ordered there for a "all-PO1" meeting with the XO or CO.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The real PO1s despised us as jumped up push-buttons who didn't earn or <BR>rank.&nbsp; We loathed them for being dullards and lifers.&nbsp; Both groups were <BR>right.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Our ages were 8 to 10 years apart.&nbsp; Our educations, even prior to the <BR>service, were wildly different.&nbsp; We had nothing in common with them.&nbsp; <BR>Although we could have learned from them, we would have never admitted it.&nbsp; <BR>My ship had two seperate crews, de facto if not de jure.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; We called the non-nuc portion of the crew "consumers" and referred to <BR>ourselves as "California Water &amp; Light."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The only real way to put an end to this is for the military to begin <BR>paying you by the job you do and not strictly by the bit of cloth on your <BR>arm.&nbsp; Then the wedge of unearned rank would be removed.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Fat chance of the trilobytes in the Pentagon agreeing to that one.<BR><BR><BR>OBTrav - Would there be jobs in the IN that due to their technical or <BR>dangerous natures might be paid more than other ranks?&nbsp; Rather than pay <BR>these rates more, would the IN resort to a draft?&nbsp; How would the IN deal <BR>with the problem inherent when you pay a mop jockey and a spinal weapons <BR>tech the same pay?<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:33:35 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 3:25, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; OBTrav - Would there be jobs in the IN that due to their technical or <BR>&gt; dangerous natures might be paid more than other ranks?&nbsp; Rather than pay <BR>&gt; these rates more, would the IN resort to a draft?&nbsp; How would the IN deal <BR>&gt; with the problem inherent when you pay a mop jockey and a spinal weapons <BR>&gt; tech the same pay?<BR><BR>I was going to say that they do pay different amounts, because that's what the <BR>starship operations rules show, but then it occurred to me that just because <BR>merchies and mercs pay sensible rates doesn't mean the IN or Marines do.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:40:45 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness<BR><BR>James wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;At 03:03 PM 2/18/01 -0600, Charles Hensley wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;James wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&lt;Snip a fascinating description of life on a target.&nbsp; (There are two<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;types<BR>&gt;&gt;of ships - submarines and targets.)&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;I have to disagree here.&nbsp; There are 3 types of ships: targets,<BR>&gt;&gt;submarines, and submarine killers<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Though in my experience, the only reliable sub killers are submarines<BR>&gt;themselves....<BR><BR>We nearly got one.<BR><BR>and as I said this REALY relies on quality of BOTH ship and crew.&nbsp; And<BR>as I said we went from subkiller to target in LESS than a year due to<BR>losing quality in both.<BR><BR>Charles<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3705<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (rly-zb02.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.2]) by air-zb05.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:44:54 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:44:39 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA64075;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:41:44 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:41:24 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA64020<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:41:24 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:41:24 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102200341.WAA64020@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3705<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3706</B></TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 20 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3706<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Land Grab Announcement<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Darrian names?<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:00:03 -0500<BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>At 03:34 PM 2/19/01 +0000, John Lambert wrote:<BR>&gt;There are a few of us ex-officers on the list (Captain, USAF Reserve <BR>&gt;Retired). The use of the same names for different ranks between the Navy <BR>&gt;and the "ground" forces, i.e., Lieutenant and Captain, can cause some <BR>&gt;confusion at times. (I got a great reception a few years ago when entering <BR>&gt;a Naval base and showing my reserve Captain's ID card.)<BR><BR>While I was in Scotland, my flatmate was sent down to the Navy hospital at <BR>RAF Lakenheath to have his knee looked at.&nbsp; Billeting for visiting Yanks <BR>was run by USAF personnel; when Chris checked in, the airman looked at his <BR>Petty Officer ID and promptly assigned him a room in the bOQ....<BR><BR>8)<BR><BR><BR>James<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:01:49 -0500<BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>At 03:34 PM 2/19/01 +0000, John Lambert wrote:<BR>&gt;In the Army and the Air Force (spun off from the Army), both 1st and 2nd <BR>&gt;Lieutenants are generally addressed as "Lieutenant".<BR><BR>Same with a jig (LTjg) and an LT.&nbsp; A Lieutenant Commander and a Commander <BR>are both addressed as "Commander," and all warrant officers are called <BR>"Warrant."<BR><BR><BR>James<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:24:42 -0500<BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>At 09:50 PM 2/19/01 +0000, yLarrsen E Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt;From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Put the two together, and I'm an Electronics Technician First Class <BR>&gt; (ET1)."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Mr. Gilly's post,<BR><BR>My name is James.&nbsp; Mr Gilly was my grandfather.<BR><BR>&gt;plus that of Mr. Harris, has started me thinking about ratings (job <BR>&gt;classifications) within the IN.&nbsp; Although HG2 does provide some clues, <BR>&gt;what sort of job classifications do you think would exist in the Imperial Navy?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Missileman, naturally.&nbsp; Engineering might split up a bit; ie. drives, <BR>&gt; mechanics, electrical, electronic, etc.<BR><BR>J-drive techs, M-drive techs, electronics techs, electricians mates, and <BR>A-gangers (who would handle the life-support systems).<BR><BR>&gt;Would screens be split up too, a Dampersman 2nd class and a Chief Globe <BR>&gt;Operator?<BR><BR>Probably - I think the two are sufficiently different.&nbsp; Black-Globe Tech <BR>and White-Globe Tech might be separate ratings, or just different NECs.<BR><BR>&gt;Would beam weapons be divvied up between lasers, fusion, and plasma <BR>&gt;guns?&nbsp; How about spinal mounts?<BR><BR>I'd say GMBs (Gunner's Mate, Beam Wpns), to go with the GMMs (or MTs) and <BR>the GMGs.&nbsp; Spinal mounts would be operated by the same personnel as the <BR>smaller weapons - maybe with different NECs.<BR><BR>For you non-Navy types: GMM = Gunner's Mate, Missiles; GMG = Gunner's Mate, <BR>Guns; MT = Missile Technician.&nbsp; GMMs are on skimmers (surface ships); MTs <BR>are on boomers (ballistic -missile subs).<BR><BR>&gt;The ancillary rates, each as important as the ones mentioned above, could <BR>&gt;be interesting.&nbsp; Would vacc suit maintenance rate one?<BR><BR>That's an A-ganger's job, too.<BR><BR>&gt;Comm gear would of course, along with computer work.<BR>&gt;&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Names change meaning too.&nbsp; I was a machinist mate, but never ran a <BR>&gt; lathe.&nbsp; My early 1900's predecessors might have, but by 1980 we'd morphed <BR>&gt; into something different.<BR><BR>And of course MRs (Machinery Repairmen) do all of the lathework now.<BR><BR>I signed up as a Radioman.&nbsp; A few years ago, all submarine RMs, <BR>Quartermasters, and IC-men were converted into Electronics <BR>Technicians.&nbsp; Shortly thereafter, submarine Torpedomen were made <BR>Machinists' Mates (Weps MMs, as opposed to the A-gangers).&nbsp; In the <BR>meantime, Data-Processor Techs were combined with skimmer RMs, and the <BR>combined rating was renamed "Information Systems Tech" (IT).&nbsp; And skimmer <BR>Torpedomen were converted into GMGs.&nbsp; So there are now no RMs or TMs any <BR>more.&nbsp; Gone the way of the CS, the RD, the nuc IC, the TD....<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; In my lifetime, boiler techs have all but disappeared from the USN.<BR>&gt;They used to be one of the biggest groups, but all new combatants are <BR>&gt;either gas turbines or nucs.&nbsp; No fossil steam plants are built anymore.<BR><BR>BTs are history.&nbsp; Most became MMs, but I saw a BT3(SS) standing topside <BR>watch on a boat last year - he'd converted to A-ganger and volunteered for <BR>subs, but as he hadn't been advanced yet he was still wearing his BT <BR>crow.&nbsp; Looked very strange....<BR><BR><BR>James<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:39:45 -0500<BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>At 11:01 PM 2/19/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade also wrote:<BR>&gt;OBTrav - Is there a job or ship type in the IN that's viewed as <BR>&gt;particularily odious?&nbsp; Or one that is viewed with great favor?&nbsp; Could this <BR>&gt;explain a PC's, with a 12 year navy career, decision to "retire"?<BR>&gt;"They cut me orders to a monitor, so I got out.&nbsp; A monitor?!!?&nbsp; I'm a <BR>&gt;cruiser man!"<BR><BR>Starships vs spaceships.&nbsp; The BBs and cruisers vs tincans (destroyers and <BR>escorts).<BR><BR><BR>James<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:36:26 -0500<BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>At 11:01 PM 2/19/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The IC guys were all converted into EMs, electricians.&nbsp; Apparently, <BR>&gt; whatever had differences in their work and equipment that had caused the <BR>&gt; creation of two "rates" had disappeared.&nbsp; DC types all joined up with <BR>&gt; HTs; meaning hull techs in navy-ese, welders to the rest of us.<BR><BR>Nuc IC-men were converted into Nuc EMs back in '84 or '85 (there were two <BR>on my first boat), but conventional IC-men are still out there in the <BR>surface fleet.&nbsp; Had them on subs, too, until they were converted (along <BR>with the RMs and QMs) into ETs.&nbsp; DCs didn't stay gone long - they were <BR>brought back around '87 or '88.&nbsp; (The firecracker team on Simon Lake was <BR>made up of DC-men.)<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; BTs simply faded away.&nbsp; In their place, two ro three tpes of GT; gas <BR>&gt; turbine, rates have grown up.<BR><BR>GSE (Gas Turbine Electrician) and GSM (Gas Turbine Mechanic).<BR><BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Why is being a nuc on a sub considered a different job than on a <BR>&gt; cruiser? From what you're saying personnel aren't tranferrred from one to <BR>&gt; the other, and yet it sounds like they're the same job. This seems a bit <BR>&gt; silly."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sub crews have always been volunteers, even during the brief periods <BR>&gt; the NAvy used draftees.&nbsp; There are a few medical conditions that would <BR>&gt; bar you from sub duty, but still allow you to serve aboard a ship.&nbsp; One <BR>&gt; onf the chiefs I worked for had been a sub type (bubblehead) for years <BR>&gt; until a medical problem forced him out.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sub crews, ecept for nucs, also recieve extra training, so you tend <BR>&gt; to get that at the beginning of you career rather than the end.&nbsp; While <BR>&gt; most rates can bounce back and forth between either ship or sub (I <BR>&gt; believe) nucs are locked in.&nbsp; And for no reason I ever could discern.<BR><BR>Once you're qualified subs, you're a bubblehead for life - the only way <BR>you'll get away temporarily to a non-submarine billet is if your rating is <BR>overmanned and you can talk your detailer into letting you go.&nbsp; I only got <BR>to the tender because there were billets in Repair which were specifically <BR>for sub RMs, and one of them opened up at just the right time.<BR><BR>Knew an RM who tried to fly a chit requesting to be transferred from sub <BR>dut on the grounds that he was no longer a volunteer.&nbsp; It didn't work. 8)<BR><BR><BR>James<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:50:00 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "No offense meant to Mr Whipsnade or any other member on this list. He <BR>is quite right that most nuclear enlisted persons have little in common with <BR>the other, more mature, senior petty officers. You can't expect a 22 year <BR>old with a high level of technical skill, but very little life experience to <BR>see things like the need for military discipline in the same way that a 30 <BR>year old who has had to make life-or-death decisions does. Some people are <BR>just not cut out for a life of military service. That's cool. It's one of <BR>the reasons we have 4 and 6 year enlistments instead of 20 year enlistments <BR>like the Romans did."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Carlino,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; No offense taken sir, because I completely agree with every point in <BR>your post!&nbsp; Looking back at myself and my peers from over 15 years in the <BR>future makes me wince.&nbsp; We were brash, insufferable, little SOBs, given rank <BR>simply as a way of boosting our pay.&nbsp; Because we didn't earn the rank, we <BR>had no respect for it.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As a 24 year old, I was an enlisted man standing watch as an enlisted <BR>officer of the watch, training newly arrived officers, and being asked about <BR>the suitability as to their qualifications for watch officer.&nbsp; Is it any <BR>wonder that the niceties of military discipline and rank were lost to me?&nbsp; <BR>Or why the opinions of a man ten years my senior, but my junior in rank, <BR>were automatically dismissed?&nbsp; Callow isn't a strong enough word to describe <BR>our behavior.&nbsp; We were horrible little bastards.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As the military is forced to handle more and more technical duties, <BR>determining pay rates without taking into account the actual job being <BR>performed is asinine.&nbsp; We already pay pilots, divers, demo experts more, way <BR>not the hard to fill tech rates?&nbsp; Heck, why not ALL hard to fill rates more? <BR>&nbsp; The USN has far too many typewriter bangers and cooks, but far too few <BR>bosuns.&nbsp; Might "bosun pay" entice a few more into the rate?&nbsp; The Army could <BR>use the same device to flesh out it's infantry ranks.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:56:13 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>Doug wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Sergeants Major are terrifying forces of nature.&nbsp; They really run the<BR>Army,<BR>&gt;although they let the officers pretend that they have something to do<BR>with<BR>&gt;it.&nbsp; Very tolerant ones will even call 2nd Lieutenants "sir" on<BR>occasion.<BR><BR>And if the 2nd Lt turns him in for not saying sir, the Sergeant Major<BR>gets a light slap on the hand, "don't do that again", and the 2nd Lt.<BR>gets royally chewed out.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:04:27 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>All this take of legal systems and constitutions<BR>leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want<BR>to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:<BR><BR>A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.<BR>With a goal to create a Federal Republic type<BR>system.&nbsp; Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!<BR>There are ways to do it without following the<BR>American model.<BR><BR>I can dream can't I.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:40:28<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>At 12:38 PM 2/19/2001 -0700, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;What is that they say on the c-130 gunships "Don't run away, you'll only <BR>&gt;die tired"<BR><BR>Ah, the AC-130 Spectre.. a plane most player characters would love.<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:57:42 +1100<BR>From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Already done in TNE. Refco and to some extent the Regency become<BR>Republics. <BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Steve Daniels [mailto:stevedaniels@portcaddo.com]<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:04 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Democracy Now!<BR><BR><BR>All this take of legal systems and constitutions<BR>leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want<BR>to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:<BR><BR>A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.<BR>With a goal to create a Federal Republic type<BR>system.&nbsp; Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!<BR>There are ways to do it without following the<BR>American model.<BR><BR>I can dream can't I.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:09:28 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Steve Daniels writes:<BR>&gt; &gt;And fundamentally, this is a problem of the court system.&nbsp; In the 3I,<BR>&gt; &gt;the courts exist only at the pleasure of the nobility.&nbsp; There are no<BR>&gt; &gt;rules of stare decisis, i.e., no binding precedent.&nbsp; Time for appeals<BR>&gt; &gt;can be limited or expanded by the noble in charge.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I should like to know what source material you base these claims on.<BR><BR>None.&nbsp; The absence of any material suggesting stare decisis is practiced<BR>leads me to the conclusion that it isn't.&nbsp; That time for appeals 'can' be<BR>limited doesn't assert that they are or are not, merely that, in the abstract,<BR>they could be.&nbsp; My point was that limiting the time and availability of<BR>appeals can alleviate the drawn-out legal case problem that some see.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;There is no precedence.&nbsp; Whatever the noble says.&nbsp; Including seizures<BR>&gt; &gt;of your current land, regardless of whatever title you may claim.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Land is likely to be one of the things an Imperial noble would have a really<BR>&gt; tough time usurping. Unless it belongs to the Imperium already, all land belongs<BR>&gt; to someone who is a citizen of a world government. As such, whatever treaty (or<BR>&gt; whatever such a document is called) made when the world joined the Imperium<BR>&gt; would spell out the rights surrendered by the world to the Imperium. If this<BR>&gt; included any land, said land would be defined to the inch.<BR><BR>Probably.&nbsp; But then to which court do you appeal alleged incursions?<BR>The Moot?<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Archduke Norris to Titled Owner of nice hunting land:<BR>&gt; &gt;"Nice place you have here.&nbsp; Excuse me.&nbsp; Nice place *I* have here.<BR>&gt; &gt;You have 30 seconds to leave forever."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Regardless of the legalities or lack thereoff, That's not at all the way I<BR>&gt; picture Norris.<BR><BR>Replace "Norris" with "X".<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;In canon, there is very little evidence of any significant legal framework,<BR>&gt; &gt;and particularly little that might resemble modern democratic systems.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The Duchy of Regina has a senate. It's powers are not defined and it may simply<BR>&gt; be advisory, but then again, it may not. Certainly someone in the subsector<BR>&gt; bureaucracy found it worth while to kidnap a senator and hide him away.<BR><BR>That isn't an imperial legal framework.&nbsp; Perhaps the senator was wealthy?<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:12:09 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>Larsen wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Names change meaning too.&nbsp; I was a machinist mate, but never ran a<BR><BR>&gt;lathe.&nbsp; My early 1900's predecessors might have, but by 1980 we'd<BR>morphed<BR>&gt;into something different.&nbsp; How much of that would occur in the IN over<BR>1000<BR>&gt;years?<BR><BR>Hey, wait a minute, that is the job of a Hull Tech.<BR><BR>Charles H<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 04:14:11 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Land Grab Announcement<BR><BR>Gentlemen,<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I've decided to take the plunge and join the Land Grab.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I hearby plant my flag, with suitable Whipsnade Family crest, the <BR>following two worlds:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Winston/Querion/Spinward Marches<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 0620&nbsp; E887573-6&nbsp; Ag nIn&nbsp; 501Da&nbsp; K5 V&nbsp; M9 D<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Grote/Glisten/Spinward Marches<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1731&nbsp; A400404-B&nbsp; nIn Va&nbsp; 124Im&nbsp; F8 V<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Anyone familiar with my e-mail address shouldn't be surprised with the <BR>second one.&nbsp; Anyone on the "Trav-Culture" list won't be surprised with the <BR>first.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I've also sent this along to the fellows at Downport.com.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hope my choices haven't stepped on any toes!&nbsp; Please be kind when the <BR>details come out.&nbsp; Some of my work on these two is pre-MT.&nbsp; I'll be using <BR>Scouts, WBH, and a little RSB.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>P.S. Rob Davenport - Now you know where those ships we've been talking about <BR>operate.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:16:33<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>At 09:56 PM 2/19/2001 -0600, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;And if the 2nd Lt turns him in for not saying sir, the Sergeant Major<BR>&gt;gets a light slap on the hand, "don't do that again", and the 2nd Lt.<BR>&gt;gets royally chewed out.<BR><BR>My ex-roomie told once about a scene he witnessed at HHC, 2nd Armored<BR>Division.<BR><BR>A 2LT was complaining to the Division CSM about the lack of respect the CSM<BR>was giving him, a commissioned officer.&nbsp; Evidently, the CSM already had 32<BR>years in, was approaching retirement, and had ceased to tolerate small,<BR>annoying things like junior officers.<BR><BR>The LT threatened to take this to the General.&nbsp; Next day, the LT is ordered<BR>to report to the Commanding General.&nbsp; The CG and CSM are in the office, as<BR>well as my friend who was serving as the CG's secretary.<BR><BR>CG: "Lieutenant, how old are you?"<BR><BR>LT: "23, Sir."<BR><BR>CG: "23..&nbsp; Lieutenant, are you aware that this NCO was in the Army for a<BR>decade before you were born?&nbsp; Are you aware he was a decorated, respected<BR>combat veteran before you knew what your dick was for?&nbsp; Are you aware that<BR>this NCO was the gunner on the first tank *I* commanded 25 years ago?<BR>Lieutenant, you are not going to get any respect from the Sergeant Major,<BR>since you haven't earned any.&nbsp; And Lieutenant, a word of advice.. *never*<BR>invoke the Commanding General unless you are ready to come into this<BR>office.&nbsp; Do you understand me?"<BR><BR>LT: (visibly shaken) "Yes sir!"<BR><BR>CSM: (to General) "Sorry to bother you with this Dave."<BR><BR>CG: "No problem John, dinner on Saturday?"<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR><BR>TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:40:59 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>Larsen wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Ah. I assumed that DC would be specialists at jury-rigging pumps<BR>and<BR>&gt;such, or fire-fighting or some-such, and so I couldn't think of<BR>anything<BR>&gt;else they might have become."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mr. Boleyn,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Everyone, and I mean everyone, one board a USN ship is considered<BR>part<BR>&gt;of the damage control team.&nbsp; It's one of the training exercises the<BR>entire<BR>&gt;in crew is involved in.&nbsp; Look the the damage taken by the Cole, the<BR>Stark,<BR>&gt;and the Roberts, plus their WW2 bretheren, without sinking.&nbsp; It's<BR>something<BR>&gt;the "Haze Grey Canoe Club" has always been proud of.&nbsp; Even the poorly<BR>&gt;motivated, "I'm here so I couldn't be drafted", squids of the Vietnam<BR>era<BR>&gt;saved the Forrestal off Yankee Station in '69 from a horrific fire.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; After the Falklands, procedures and equipment were upgraded even<BR>more.<BR>&gt;The mucky-mucks took a very hard look at all the troubles the Brits had<BR>had.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Perhaps they thought DC specialists would take away from the<BR>"total<BR>&gt;crew" emphasis.<BR><BR>There are also levels of Damage Control Teams.&nbsp; Each watch shift (2 - 4,<BR>depending on the ship) had a first team. First DC team always consists<BR>of all Hull Techs, all DC men, one electrician, and a Corpsman (who<BR>reports to the Infirmary), plus however many extra people needed to man<BR>the fire hoses, from that shift.&nbsp; 2nd team consists of 1 electrician,<BR>all otherwise unoccupied snipes (below decks crew), third team is<BR>EVERYBODY.&nbsp; Aircraft carriers also have the same thing for the flight<BR>deck (but I don't know who are the required personel).<BR><BR>Charles H<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:51:28 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Thou SHALT NOT speak the name of the UNHOLY<BR>here!<BR><BR>If you want me to be more specific, I will.<BR><BR>I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still<BR>Emperor in the 1120s-1140s.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>Paul Harris wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Already done in TNE. Refco and to some extent the Regency become<BR>&gt; Republics.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:00:41 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>Larsen Wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "The surface and sub communities are completely different kettles<BR>of<BR>&gt;fish.&nbsp; One has to volunteer for sub duty and then go to lots of schools<BR><BR>&gt;and special training."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mr. Harris,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Except for nucs, alas.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I distinctly remember ICs being folded into the EM ranks during my<BR><BR>&gt;tour.&nbsp; The nuc ICs were all ticked off about having to buy new "crows"<BR>for<BR>&gt;their uniforms.&nbsp; The one or two DC types had the same squawk.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Are both these rates "hanging on" in the reserve formations?<BR><BR>ICmen were alive and well back in the 80's, the Navy only combined the<BR>Nuc ICmen with EM's, non-Nuc ICmen were/are still around but may be<BR>combined into Info Tech.&nbsp; On the Destroyer that I was on, the ICmen ran<BR>the telephone system, internal communications systems, ship board TV and<BR>"Radio" (4 closed circuit music channels).<BR><BR>Charles H<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:52:57 +1100<BR>From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Oh... that alternate universe GURPS thingy.... <BR><BR>......... I thought we were talking Official Traveller Universe here!<BR>;)<BR><BR>Note the emoticon people..... ;)<BR>Here it is again............. ;)<BR><BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Steve Daniels [mailto:stevedaniels@portcaddo.com]<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:51 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR><BR>Thou SHALT NOT speak the name of the UNHOLY<BR>here!<BR><BR>If you want me to be more specific, I will.<BR><BR>I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still<BR>Emperor in the 1120s-1140s.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>Paul Harris wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Already done in TNE. Refco and to some extent the Regency become<BR>&gt; Republics.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:10:36 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt;From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still Emperor in the <BR>1120s-1140s.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; :-P"<BR><BR><BR>Bloo,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I'm with you, partner.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; Who spiked the water cooler when <BR>they came up with that one!??!<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; After the "Survival Margin" came out, a lady friend of mine actually <BR>had a "Strephon Lives" tee shirt made for me.&nbsp; A very kind thing to do.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; If T5's mileau hasn't been selected yet, that's where Mr. Miller should <BR>put it.&nbsp; Screw Virus and pass the antibiotic!<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:13:04 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>Oh... that alternate universe GURPS thingy....<BR><BR>......... I thought we were talking Official Traveller Universe here!<BR>;)<BR><BR>Note the emoticon people..... ;)<BR>Here it is again............. ;)<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; But it is February after all...<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:13:52 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Darrian names?<BR><BR>On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:04:43 -0600, Jimmy Simpson<BR>&lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;At 06:10 PM 2/18/2001 -0500, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;Is there a Darrian name list and/or language generator out there anywhere? <BR>&gt;&gt;Turning my storage room upside down has failed to produce my Darrians <BR>&gt;&gt;Alien Module....<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Cheers,<BR>&gt;&gt;Paul Drye<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;_________________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt;&gt;Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I have a spreadsheet that generates names for 13 different Trav languages <BR>&gt;(Ael Yael, Aslan, Darrian, Dynchia, Gvegh, Happirhvani, Hkar, K'kree, <BR>&gt;Norsk, Oynprith, Vilani, Vuakedh and Zhodani).&nbsp; I can send it to you if you <BR>&gt;are interested.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Jimmy Simpson<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>Since I appear to be the second "me too" to post this, perhaps you<BR>could arrange to have this posted on one of the friendly Traveller web<BR>sites as well.<BR><BR>I see that Jeff Zeitlin has something similar (though, from what I can<BR>tell, not as diverse) being hosted at Freelance Traveller.&nbsp; Perhaps<BR>you could arrange the same.<BR><BR>In any event, please send a copy my way as well.<BR><BR>Thanks.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:07:23 +1100<BR>From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Errr... actually you can't treat viruses with antibiotics..... ;)<BR><BR><BR>Bring on the Empress Wave!!!! I've got my surfboard right here!<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Larsen E. Whipsnade [mailto:grote1731@hotmail.com]<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 4:11 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR><BR>&gt;From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still Emperor in<BR>the <BR>1120s-1140s.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; :-P"<BR><BR><BR>Bloo,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I'm with you, partner.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; Who spiked the water cooler<BR>when <BR>they came up with that one!??!<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; After the "Survival Margin" came out, a lady friend of mine<BR>actually <BR>had a "Strephon Lives" tee shirt made for me.&nbsp; A very kind thing to do.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; If T5's mileau hasn't been selected yet, that's where Mr. Miller<BR>should <BR>put it.&nbsp; Screw Virus and pass the antibiotic!<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3707</B></TD></TR>
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<TD vAlign=top width="10%">Date: </TD>
<TD>2/19/01 10:48:58 PM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 20 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3707<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Sgts<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: A Bertram Chandler<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>Re: Nasty cargo bays...<BR>You can't have it (was Near C- Rocks! (TM))<BR>Re: Deep Space Jumps<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:08:22 +1100<BR>From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Huh? Whats Febuary got to do with it?<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Larsen E. Whipsnade [mailto:grote1731@hotmail.com]<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 4:13 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR><BR>From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>Oh... that alternate universe GURPS thingy....<BR><BR>......... I thought we were talking Official Traveller Universe here!<BR>;)<BR><BR>Note the emoticon people..... ;)<BR>Here it is again............. ;)<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; But it is February after all...<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:25:27 +0000<BR>From: "Doug C." &lt;dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Federal Republic!&nbsp;&nbsp; Ugh!!!!!<BR><BR>Constitutional Monarchy... Now THAT'S the way to go!<BR>Why a Constitutional Monarchy?<BR>Five reasons;<BR>1. Easier transition<BR>2. People need a symbol which can transcend planetary/regional<BR>patriotism<BR>3. A Federal democracy would encounter serious problems reconciling the<BR>fundamental differences in planetary governments.&nbsp; this would provoke<BR>wholesale intervention in "local" affairs.<BR>4. Federal democracies are prone to either centralization (impractical<BR>in case of polity as large as 3I), OR, fragmentation if to<BR>decentralized.<BR>5. Incredible possibilities for role-playing in the political intrigues<BR>surrounding this kind of transition.<BR><BR>Doug C<BR>&lt;LBB since &lt;1980)<BR>"Up the Yanks... Three cheers for Her Majesty!!!"<BR><BR>Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; All this take of legal systems and constitutions<BR>&gt; leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want<BR>&gt; to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.<BR>&gt; With a goal to create a Federal Republic type<BR>&gt; system.&nbsp; Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!<BR>&gt; There are ways to do it without following the<BR>&gt; American model.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I can dream can't I.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-P<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:31:30 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>At 10:51 PM 2/19/2001 -0600, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Thou SHALT NOT speak the name of the UNHOLY<BR>&gt;here!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;If you want me to be more specific, I will.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still<BR>&gt;Emperor in the 1120s-1140s.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>Hello Bloo,<BR>&nbsp; From what I'm seeing in the Traveller discussion on law and the Imperium,<BR>it would seem that there are those who think that being a noble in the<BR>Imperium grants nobles the right to confiscate property, control courts of<BR>law based on the capriciousness of whim, etc...<BR><BR>&nbsp; That being the case?&nbsp; What causes a rebellion is a discontent with the<BR>way life is.&nbsp; It isn't just a discontent per se, but a realization that<BR>things can't be worse.&nbsp; If you decide you want to have a Star Wars style<BR>rebellion, it could start with something as silly as:<BR><BR>"In today's news, Emperor Strephon did affirm and ratify decisions by Baron<BR>&lt;fill in name here&gt; that planetary member constitions be damned, the noble<BR>has the right to enforce Imperial will at his lesiure."<BR><BR>&nbsp; This in turn sets the stage for *all* democratic governments that realize<BR>where the wind is blowing.&nbsp; They meet in secret, with representatives in<BR>the person who agree to meet under stringent circumstances.&nbsp; Alas, one of<BR>their members is really a stooge for the Imperium, and despite the fact<BR>that they really *were* plotting to overthrow the Imperium, member worlds<BR>use PR to show that they were hapless individuals who were painted to look<BR>treasonous in order to further the Imperial aims - domination.&nbsp; Since the<BR>Democratic models of how a government should act on behalf of its citizens<BR>has surely been violated, member worlds eventually start protesting the<BR>Imperials for failure to observe *their* form of government.&nbsp; Then it<BR>happens.&nbsp; A confrontational sit in from civilians meets up against a<BR>*green* military garrison unit, and the unthinkable happens: massacre.&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; From there, it gets worse as the democracy oriented planets become<BR>targets of a clamp down effort by the Imperium.&nbsp; Member worlds realize that<BR>they can either Toady up to the Imperial masters, or they can fight the<BR>Imperial Masters - but in a hidden manner.&nbsp; Soon, Warships start<BR>experiencing double their usual breakdown rates as maintenance parts are<BR>discovered to be sub standard, or just plain ill fitting.&nbsp; Imagine what<BR>would happen when lubricants rated up to 150 degrees centigrade are now<BR>only rated for 120 degrees - without warning?&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; Sooner or later, piracy starts to surge upwards as these hidden rebel<BR>forces attempt to hit and run.&nbsp; One favored tactic would be to use Jump-0<BR>jumps in an effort to fool the Imperial forces into thinking they went<BR>elsewhere.&nbsp; There would be nothing worse than using Jump-0 to jump a mere 3<BR>*feet* from where they were in an effort to escape pursuit via "time".<BR>This means that once such tactics are used, the Imperial forces now need to<BR>keep a fleet nearby for a week in order to insure that the hit and run unit<BR>isn't coming back for more.<BR><BR>&nbsp; I don't know if this is what you meant or not.&nbsp; I would suggest that you<BR>look at what worlds are actually democratic and see if they might be<BR>willing to finance a guerilla warfare effort on the sly.&nbsp; I can also see<BR>where the Zhodani might be willing to work with a few Imperials in the<BR>following manner...<BR><BR>In the news today, Imperial forces discovered a military build up of<BR>Zhodani forces near their borders.&nbsp; The Zhodani of course denied that they<BR>were rattling their sabres, but insisted they were merely conducting<BR>defensive manuevers against the day when Imperial forces might invade their<BR>territories.&nbsp; The Local Duke has responded with a limited mobilization, and<BR>has sent a requestion for instructions from the Arch Duke himself...<BR><BR>&nbsp; This would mean that Imperial forces would be perhaps a mite thinner than<BR>they'd like.&nbsp; It would also explain why the garrison troops were used to<BR>put down demonstrations, and act as the trigger for a civil war incident.<BR>Perhaps one ship, armed with nuclear devices, truely by accident used a<BR>nuclear weapon that was either improperly identified as conventional, or<BR>was inproperly labled as conventional.&nbsp; Either way, the deaths of Imperial<BR>Citizens at the hand of the Navy would likely result in a furor over said<BR>event, perhaps sparking an even worse situation.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:34:21 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Sgts<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;And if the 2nd Lt turns him in for not saying sir, the Sergeant Major<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;gets a light slap on the hand, "don't do that again", and the 2nd Lt.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;gets royally chewed out.<BR><BR>One of GDW's USMC advisors told of a grizzled gunnery sgt who called Lts <BR>"Skipper" if he liked them (i.e., if he thought they had potential), and <BR>"Skippie" if he didn't. This enecdote contributed to some of the more amusing <BR>"flavor text" pieces in assorted GDW products.<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:42:48 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I'm with you, partner.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; Who spiked the water cooler when <BR>&gt;&nbsp; they came up with that one!??!<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.<BR><BR>Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . . . <BR>thank you.<BR><BR>Reminds me of the time some critic at the hotel bar at one of the east coast <BR>Origins was sounding off on what a lousy book _Red Storm Rising_ was, and how <BR>the scenario was totally implausible. I was sitting at the next table, with <BR>Frank Chadwick and a couple of friends of GDW, including one Tom Clancy (this <BR>was in the days he still could attend gaming cons and not be recognized). We <BR>were all waiting for the critic to say "What idiot came up with that one?" <BR>but he never did -- spolied a perfect anecdote in the making . . . <BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:56:50 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; That being the case?&nbsp; What causes a rebellion is a discontent with the<BR>&gt; way life is.<BR><BR>They can also be started by those who want to be dictators but<BR>need some help to get in office.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:58:16 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR><BR>Sorry, Loren.&nbsp; I started this.<BR><BR>I always thought that the good bits of TNE would have been<BR>better if packaged as The Long Night.&nbsp; But I really don't like<BR>the Virus.&nbsp; There's lots of me not to like.&nbsp; It just isn't all printed<BR>and published and stuff like that.&nbsp; ;-)<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR><BR>GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I'm with you, partner.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; Who spiked the water cooler when<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; they came up with that one!??!<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . . .<BR>&gt; thank you.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Reminds me of the time some critic at the hotel bar at one of the east coast<BR>&gt; Origins was sounding off on what a lousy book _Red Storm Rising_ was, and how<BR>&gt; the scenario was totally implausible. I was sitting at the next table, with<BR>&gt; Frank Chadwick and a couple of friends of GDW, including one Tom Clancy (this<BR>&gt; was in the days he still could attend gaming cons and not be recognized). We<BR>&gt; were all waiting for the critic to say "What idiot came up with that one?"<BR>&gt; but he never did -- spolied a perfect anecdote in the making . . .<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:00:54 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>"Doug C." wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Federal Republic!&nbsp;&nbsp; Ugh!!!!!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Constitutional Monarchy... Now THAT'S the way to go!<BR>&gt; Why a Constitutional Monarchy?<BR><BR>[snip]<BR><BR>Slow down, pa'dner.<BR><BR>I didn't say it had to be a successful revolution.<BR>If you want your counter-revolution to be a Constitutional<BR>Monarchy, please, go right ahead.&nbsp; That might be fun.<BR>Co-opts the democrats and appeases the tories.<BR><BR>No comment about actual real world systems that may<BR>bear superficial similarity.&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:19:54 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: A Bertram Chandler<BR><BR>- --part1_87.71a2eb4.27c3668a_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction written in the 5=<BR>0's=20<BR>&gt; and 60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!<BR><BR>I guess it's escaped your notice that Traveller is *intended* to<BR>recreate the sort of SF that was *written* in the 50s and 60s.=20<BR><BR>So your comment ranks with putting down references to books set in the<BR>Napoleonic Wars era on a list dedicated to games set in that same era.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; ::looks around:: Man!! This hole I dug myself just seems to get deeper an=<BR>d=20<BR>deeper, huh??<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Look,I have nothing against the 50's and 60's style of play. I really=20<BR>don't. I just like a more modern minded gameset is all. I'm sorry if i=20<BR>offended anyone. MY MOST SINCERE APOLOGIES TO MR. ASIMOV&gt;He is a SciFi god!!=<BR>=20<BR>LOL.=20<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Let me explain myself. If people want a game much like 50's and 60's=20<BR>stlye SciFi. I say go for it. But for those who like a more modern game=20<BR>style, the CT and MT rules are by far the most flexible SciFi rules to be=20<BR>published that are easily molded to anyones idea of what Space should be=20<BR>like. Or more precisely, what they WANT space to be like.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Me, I like the Star Trek+Star Wars idea with a dash of Battlestar and a=20<BR>pinch of everything else thrown in. My players like it too. We have great=20<BR>games. We have even played games that were set in the past (like a 50's or=20<BR>60's game) where we each played an ancestor of our modern day characters. It=<BR>=20<BR>was a blast!!<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; I guess the bottom line is: Different strokes for different folks.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; As long as we're all in the same game. Who cares!!<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Live Long and Prosper.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_87.71a2eb4.27c3668a_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3><BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0 =A0 Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction written i=<BR>n the 50's=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt; and 60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!<BR><BR><BR><BR>I guess it's escaped your notice that Traveller is *intended* to<BR><BR>recreate the sort of SF that was *written* in the 50s and 60s.=20<BR><BR><BR><BR>So your comment ranks with putting down references to books set in the<BR><BR>Napoleonic Wars era on a list dedicated to games set in that same era.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;::looks around:: Man!! This hole I dug myself just seems to=<BR>get deeper and=20<BR><BR>deeper, huh??<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Look,I have nothing against the 50's and 60's style o=<BR>f play. I really=20<BR><BR>don't. I just like a more modern minded gameset is all. I'm sorry if i=20<BR><BR>offended anyone. MY MOST SINCERE APOLOGIES TO MR. ASIMOV&amp;gt;He is a SciF=<BR>i god!!=20<BR><BR>LOL.=20<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Let me explain myself. If people want a game much lik=<BR>e 50's and 60's=20<BR><BR>stlye SciFi. I say go for it. But for those who like a more modern game=20<BR><BR>style, the CT and MT rules are by far the most flexible SciFi rules to b=<BR>e=20<BR><BR>published that are easily molded to anyones idea of what Space should be=<BR>=20<BR><BR>like. Or more precisely, what they WANT space to be like.<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Me, I like the Star Trek+Star Wars idea with a dash o=<BR>f Battlestar and a=20<BR><BR>pinch of everything else thrown in. My players like it too. We have grea=<BR>t=20<BR><BR>games. We have even played games that were set in the past (like a 50's=20=<BR>or=20<BR><BR>60's game) where we each played an ancestor of our modern day characters=<BR>. It=20<BR><BR>was a blast!!<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;I guess the bottom line is: Different strokes for different=<BR>folks.<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;As long as we're all in the same game. Who cares!!<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Live Long and Prosper.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shagg=<BR>y3D<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_87.71a2eb4.27c3668a_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:22:10 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>- --part1_a0.104dd6b1.27c36712_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><BR>Actually I'm the one who is having the shit bored out of me by someone who<BR>posts, in HTML, inane little one or two line responses to every damn post on<BR>the list.=A0 I suggest as respectfully as I can, in return to this comment--<BR>that you find a life.<BR><BR>Kiri=A0 ^_^<BR>=A0 =A0 -----Original Message-----<BR>=A0 =A0 From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com &lt;ComputerFoolish@aol.com&gt;<BR>=A0 =A0 To: traveller@lists.ient.com &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>=A0 =A0 Date: Saturday, February 17, 2001 2:26 PM<BR>=A0 =A0 Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR><BR>=A0 =A0 Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR><BR>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20=<BR>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Mental Note: I get irritable during late nights. No more late night=20<BR>postings??<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_a0.104dd6b1.27c36712_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3><BR><BR>Actually I'm the one who is having the shit bored out of me by someone w=<BR>ho<BR><BR>posts, in HTML, inane little one or two line responses to every damn pos=<BR>t on<BR><BR>the list.=A0 I suggest as respectfully as I can, in return to this comme=<BR>nt--<BR><BR>that you find a life.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Kiri=A0 ^_^<BR><BR>=A0 =A0 -----Original Message-----<BR><BR>=A0 =A0 From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com &amp;lt;ComputerFoolish@aol.com&amp;gt;<BR><BR>=A0 =A0 To: traveller@lists.ient.com &amp;lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&amp;gt;<BR><BR>=A0 =A0 Date: Saturday, February 17, 2001 2:26 PM<BR><BR>=A0 =A0 Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>=A0 =A0 Are you people done with boring the &amp;amp;^%*$ out of us already?=<BR>????<BR><BR><BR><BR>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20=<BR>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Mental Note: I get irritable during late nights. No more la=<BR>te night=20<BR><BR>postings??<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_a0.104dd6b1.27c36712_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:24:15 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>- --part1_98.10c5fd33.27c3678f_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><BR>From: Kurt Feltenberger &lt;kurt@blazenet.net&gt;<BR>&lt;original message&gt;<BR>=A0 =A0=A0 "Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????=<BR>"<BR>&lt;Kurt's response&gt;<BR>=A0 =A0=A0 "Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned."<BR><BR><BR><BR>=A0 =A0=A0 "I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has a t=<BR>roll.=A0=20<BR>Please!??!"<BR><BR><BR>=A0 =A0=A0 Larsen<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Sorry guy. I'm not Cliff.<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_98.10c5fd33.27c3678f_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3><BR><BR>From: Kurt Feltenberger &amp;lt;kurt@blazenet.net&amp;gt;<BR><BR>&amp;lt;original message&amp;gt;<BR><BR>=A0 =A0=A0 "Are you people done with boring the &amp;amp;^%*$ out of us alre=<BR>ady?????"<BR><BR>&amp;lt;Kurt's response&amp;gt;<BR><BR>=A0 =A0=A0 "Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>=A0 =A0=A0 "I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has=<BR>a troll.=A0=20<BR><BR>Please!??!"<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>=A0 =A0=A0 Larsen<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Sorry guy. I'm not Cliff.<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_98.10c5fd33.27c3678f_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:26:11 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Nasty cargo bays...<BR><BR>- --part1_aa.115586b5.27c36803_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; On 17 Feb 2001, at 22:53, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>&gt;=20<BR>&gt; &gt; ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;=A0 Ok,what the heck is a groat?? LOL.<BR>&gt; &gt;=20<BR>&gt; &gt; A groat is an alien animal which, due to some amazing coincidence, is<BR>&gt; &gt; remarkably similiar to a goat or sheep...<BR>&gt;=20<BR>&gt; Or it's an old English silver coin of four pence value.<BR><BR>Or it's a grain based food product, often made of buckwheat,<BR>most commonly consumed as a breakfast cereal.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; hhhmmm......what would the overhead be on a bulk shipment of that??=20<BR>Interesting.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR>- --part1_aa.115586b5.27c36803_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3>"Rupert Boleyn" &amp;lt;rbole=<BR>yn@paradise.net.nz&amp;gt; wrote<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;gt; On 17 Feb 2001, at 22:53, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt; &amp;gt; ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt;=A0 Ok,what the heck is a groat?? LOL.<BR><BR>&amp;gt; &amp;gt;=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt; &amp;gt; A groat is an alien animal which, due to some amazing coincide=<BR>nce, is<BR><BR>&amp;gt; &amp;gt; remarkably similiar to a goat or sheep...<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt; Or it's an old English silver coin of four pence value.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Or it's a grain based food product, often made of buckwheat,<BR><BR>most commonly consumed as a breakfast cereal.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;hhhmmm......what would the overhead be on a bulk shipment o=<BR>f that??=20<BR><BR>Interesting.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D&lt;/F=<BR>ONT&gt;<BR><BR>- --part1_aa.115586b5.27c36803_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:21:50 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: You can't have it (was Near C- Rocks! (TM))<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:38:49 +1300<BR>&gt; From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Gregory Carl Kettler wrote :<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Hmm......., I hereby claim the name Near-C for future use either as a<BR>&gt; strategic weapons company or an industrial rock band. If there's not<BR>already<BR>&gt; a trade-mark on the phrase<BR>&gt; "Near-C Rocks!"&nbsp; (including the apostrophe)<BR><BR>"near-c rocks" is the name of a vargr glam-punk band currently headlining<BR>the<BR>marchespalooza tour. (Other notable bands included are the up and comming<BR>dog-pop band "VOUS" {Vargr Of Unusual Style} and the folk trio "Female aslan<BR>in sensible shoes {FAISS to their fans}) near-c rocks is currently<BR>supporting<BR>their hit holocube "Sixth Frontier War" (released by the Spinward Marches<BR>Entertainment Group on the Outworld Coalition label) and seem poised to gain<BR>the affection of a whole generation of the March's youth.<BR><BR>Since I haven't previously divulged the existence of the Spinward Marches<BR>Entertainment Group I suppose some more background is in order. This<BR>LIC was founded fairly recently (within the last hundred years) to produce<BR>and disseminate entertainment of all forms to the teeming billions of the<BR>Marches. While not all ventures have been successfull SMEG has had<BR>a remarkable string of successes. Indeed the firm has made so much<BR>money that it has been able to aquire many smaller concerns in fields<BR>far removed from the initial charter of the corporation among them<BR>mining and manufacturing conglomerates and the intriguing investment<BR>firm Occult Arbitrage.<BR><BR>Many of the business dealings of SMEG are extra Imperial including<BR>among other assets the newly aquired Orcrist Firearms Foundry (OFF)<BR>in the Sword Worlds and extensive cultural links in Vargr and Zhodani<BR>space. As of this precis exact ownership of the Spinward Marches<BR>Entertainment Group are unknown although several minor Counts<BR>are on the board of directors.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:30:11 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:52:29 +1100<BR>&gt; From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Look at the fuel requirements for fusion plants running various<BR>&gt; incarnations of thrusters (at least MT and GT varieties will work, I<BR>&gt; don't have other references handy to compare).&nbsp; You could get fuel out<BR>&gt; 2 parsecs by sublight barge in just 10 or so years, with very little<BR>&gt; of the original mass consumed.<BR><BR>Sorry I was suffering from an accute attack of TNE. I'm better now<BR>thanks for asking<BR><BR>&gt; Including deceleration.&nbsp; Final cost of<BR>&gt; refined fuel at deep space depot: 145 Cr/dton in bulk, including all<BR>&gt; the usual overheads I figure into these sorts of computations.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; As I've said before and will say again -- jump drives are massively<BR>&gt; more expensive than maneuver drives.&nbsp; If you don't need the speed,<BR>&gt; don't pay the premium.<BR><BR>At any interstellar distance the much greater number of trips that the<BR>jump capable ship can perform more than offsets the added costs<BR>of the jump drive (I'll have to trot out High Guard and see if I can<BR>figure out what the break-even distance is.)<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:40:43 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>- --part1_14.fe925a9.27c36b6b_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><BR>On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR><BR>For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to <BR>delete.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Ok, let me try to explain my point of view, if I may. Fine, you people <BR>want to explain all the intricacies (did I spell that right?) of courts and <BR>titles and all. That's fine. But what would happen to a player who just <BR>wanted to know the correct way of addressing someone if he wasn't interested <BR>in all the details. It's simple, he would fall asleep during the long, drawn <BR>out, boring letters that you wrote. Not to mention it would take something <BR>away from the game. <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; What if the players don't actually know how to address the local nobles?? <BR>What if the local nobles do things slightly different than the courts <BR>norms??That in itself could lead to a mini adventure within the gane when the <BR>local noble brings charges against a player for some minor but local insult. <BR>Then I have to explain all those court preceedings to my players?? And they <BR>fall asleep.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; t's not that I don't like all the extra detail that ya'll write about. I <BR>just don't necessarily need it in a game and neither does a player. It tends <BR>to bog the game down and as we all know, when that happens players get bored.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Why not just keep it simple?? Don't tell me how to address the local <BR>noble at all times. Just tell me how to address him/her at THIS time. Then, <BR>keep the game going. Don't explain all the court politics to me, just tell me <BR>whats going on real quick and what I can as a player, dop about it. Simple.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Love me or hate me,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR><BR>- --part1_14.fe925a9.27c36b6b_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2><BR><BR>On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;gt; Are you people done with boring the &amp;amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR><BR><BR><BR>For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to <BR><BR>delete.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Ok, let me try to explain my point of view, if I may. Fine, you people <BR><BR>want to explain all the intricacies (did I spell that right?) of courts and <BR><BR>titles and all. That's fine. But what would happen to a player who just <BR><BR>wanted to know the correct way of addressing someone if he wasn't interested <BR><BR>in all the details. It's simple, he would fall asleep during the long, drawn <BR><BR>out, boring letters that you wrote. Not to mention it would take something <BR><BR>away from the game. <BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;What if the players don't actually know how to address the local nobles?? <BR><BR>What if the local nobles do things slightly different than the courts <BR><BR>norms??That in itself could lead to a mini adventure within the gane when the <BR><BR>local noble brings charges against a player for some minor but local insult. <BR><BR>Then I have to explain all those court preceedings to my players?? And they <BR><BR>fall asleep.<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;t's not that I don't like all the extra detail that ya'll write about. I <BR><BR>just don't necessarily need it in a game and neither does a player. It tends <BR><BR>to bog the game down and as we all know, when that happens players get bored.<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Why not just keep it simple?? Don't tell me how to address the local <BR><BR>noble at all times. Just tell me how to address him/her at THIS time. Then, <BR><BR>keep the game going. Don't explain all the court politics to me, just tell me <BR><BR>whats going on real quick and what I can as a player, dop about it. Simple.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Love me or hate me,<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_14.fe925a9.27c36b6b_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:45:58 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>- --part1_6f.115ea7b4.27c36ca6_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><BR>&gt; On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to<BR>delete.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>This is my third. &lt;Ker-Plonk!&gt;<BR><BR>Pronto<BR>AKA Brian Taylor<BR>Next year, at Burning Man!<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Insult Alert! Insult Alert!! I see..............so you'd rather delete <BR>and ignore me than try to figure out what I mean?? I hadn't realized there <BR>were so many closed-minded people playing Traveller these days. ::shrugs:: Or <BR>maybe the reason Traveller has gone bottom up is because of people like you <BR>and some others who feel the need to explain every little detail and nuance <BR>of a game to death to the point that it becomes boring and uninteresting to <BR>players. If you feel the need to delete me. So be it. It will only prove my <BR>point even further. TY.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Love me or hate me,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I'm here to stay.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR>- --part1_6f.115ea7b4.27c36ca6_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2><BR><BR>&amp;gt; On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>&amp;gt; &amp;gt; Are you people done with boring the &amp;amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR><BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>&amp;gt; For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to<BR><BR>delete.<BR><BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>This is my third. &amp;lt;Ker-Plonk!&amp;gt;<BR><BR><BR><BR>Pronto<BR><BR>AKA Brian Taylor<BR><BR>Next year, at Burning Man!<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Insult Alert! Insult Alert!! I see..............so you'd rather delete <BR><BR>and ignore me than try to figure out what I mean?? I hadn't realized there <BR><BR>were so many closed-minded people playing Traveller these days. ::shrugs:: Or <BR><BR>maybe the reason Traveller has gone bottom up is because of people like you <BR><BR>and some others who feel the need to explain every little detail and nuance <BR><BR>of a game to death to the point that it becomes boring and uninteresting to <BR><BR>players. If you feel the need to delete me. So be it. It will only prove my <BR><BR>point even further. TY.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Love me or hate me,<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;I'm here to stay.<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D</FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_6f.115ea7b4.27c36ca6_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3707<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-yb04.mx.aol.com (rly-yb04.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.4]) by air-yb02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:48:58 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yb04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:48:24 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id BAA72606;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:46:40 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:46:35 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id BAA72576<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:46:35 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:46:35 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102200646.BAA72576@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD vAlign=top width="10%">Subj: </TD>
<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3708</B></TD></TR>
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<TD vAlign=top width="10%">Date: </TD>
<TD>2/19/01 11:22:18 PM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 20 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3708<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts<BR>Re: A Lucky Find?<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>Re: [TML] What's in a name? (was: Deep Space Jumps)<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>Re: Source Code request?<BR>Re: A Lucky Find?<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>Re: Indefinite life span<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:49:02 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts<BR><BR>- --part1_e0.1096ecb5.27c36d5e_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR>&gt;Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20=<BR>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Shaggy3D<BR><BR>First of all, please send stuff as flat text. Some of us prefer to avoid=20<BR>using malware to read email.<BR><BR>Secondly, if it bores you, just go to the next post.<BR><BR>Thirdly, Imperial Civil Courts can be close to the hearts of PCs.<BR><BR>For example, lets assume a merc unit has a contract that involves a=20<BR>performance bonus if they take=20<BR>the capital of the side that didnt hire them.<BR><BR>Lets assume that halfway through the campaign, the enemy moves the capital=20<BR>from Nuevo Roma to=20<BR>Nueva Ravenna.<BR><BR>The merc unit proceeds to take Neuvo Roma.<BR><BR>Do they get a performance bonus ?<BR><BR>Well, that depends.=20<BR><BR>If the hiring side refuses to pay them the bonus, they could go to court.<BR><BR>What do they have that the noble in charge of the case wants ? Well, see,=20<BR>maybe she needs a little=20<BR>task done, and, well, you know how it all works.<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; hhhmmm.......interesting point. ::looks around:: Geez,this hole I'm in=20<BR>seems a bit deeper than before.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR><BR>- --part1_e0.1096ecb5.27c36d5e_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3>&amp;gt;Are you people done w=<BR>ith boring the &amp;amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR><BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20=<BR>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR><BR>First of all, please send stuff as flat text. Some of us prefer to avoid=<BR>=20<BR><BR>using malware to read email.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Secondly, if it bores you, just go to the next post.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Thirdly, Imperial Civil Courts can be close to the hearts of PCs.<BR><BR><BR><BR>For example, lets assume a merc unit has a contract that involves a=20<BR><BR>performance bonus if they take=20<BR><BR>the capital of the side that didnt hire them.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Lets assume that halfway through the campaign, the enemy moves the capit=<BR>al=20<BR><BR>from Nuevo Roma to=20<BR><BR>Nueva Ravenna.<BR><BR><BR><BR>The merc unit proceeds to take Neuvo Roma.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Do they get a performance bonus ?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Well, that depends.=20<BR><BR><BR><BR>If the hiring side refuses to pay them the bonus, they could go to court=<BR>.<BR><BR><BR><BR>What do they have that the noble in charge of the case wants ? Well, see=<BR>,=20<BR><BR>maybe she needs a little=20<BR><BR>task done, and, well, you know how it all works.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;hhhmmm.......interesting point. ::looks around:: Geez,this=20=<BR>hole I'm in=20<BR><BR>seems a bit deeper than before.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_e0.1096ecb5.27c36d5e_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:51:40 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?<BR><BR>- --part1_55.11681035.27c36dfc_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><BR>Just went into my FLGS in Canberra, and picked up a copy of Far Trader,<BR>which appears to have been personally signed by Steve Jackson (?!) Could any<BR>of TGOOs comment on the likelihood of this?<BR><BR>On another matter:<BR><BR>=A0 =A0 OGTHROD AI'F<BR>=A0 =A0 GEB'L - EE'H<BR>=A0 =A0 YOG-SOTHOTH<BR>=A0 =A0 'NGAH'NG AI'Y<BR>=A0 =A0 ZHRO!<BR><BR>If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does this count as<BR>keyboard kill?=A0 literally?) then I shall fear the worst...<BR><BR>J.M.M.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; =20<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; uuuummmmm........could someone explain to me what an ancient Cthulhu=20<BR>religion has to do with Traveller??&nbsp;&nbsp; Isn't that more specific to D&amp;D??&nbsp; I=20<BR>know I'm new to the list so could someone explain it to me?? Please??<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR>- --part1_55.11681035.27c36dfc_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3><BR><BR>Just went into my FLGS in Canberra, and picked up a copy of Far Trader,<BR><BR>which appears to have been personally signed by Steve Jackson (?!) Could=<BR>any<BR><BR>of TGOOs comment on the likelihood of this?<BR><BR><BR><BR>On another matter:<BR><BR><BR><BR>=A0 =A0 OGTHROD AI'F<BR><BR>=A0 =A0 GEB'L - EE'H<BR><BR>=A0 =A0 YOG-SOTHOTH<BR><BR>=A0 =A0 'NGAH'NG AI'Y<BR><BR>=A0 =A0 ZHRO!<BR><BR><BR><BR>If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does this count=<BR>as<BR><BR>keyboard kill?=A0 literally?) then I shall fear the worst...<BR><BR><BR><BR>J.M.M.<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;uuuummmmm........could someone explain to me what an ancien=<BR>t Cthulhu=20<BR><BR>religion has to do with Traveller?? &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Isn't that more specific=<BR>to D&amp;amp;D?? &amp;nbsp;I=20<BR><BR>know I'm new to the list so could someone explain it to me?? Please??<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D</FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_55.11681035.27c36dfc_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:54:03 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>- --part1_43.10e7b8b2.27c36e8b_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><BR>Kurt wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned.<BR><BR>=A0 =A0 Although Clif certainly had many faults, he was not quite as absurd=20=<BR>as=20<BR>this<BR>silly bastard. Clif would present an idea and then get really pissed when<BR>other listmembers would shoot it through with holes. This fellow seems<BR>barely capable of generating a coherent sentence, let alone coming up with<BR>an idea worthy of having holes shot through it.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Oh, but it's ok for YOU to be insultive, right?? BTW, who is this Cliff=20<BR>person??<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_43.10e7b8b2.27c36e8b_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3><BR><BR>Kurt wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;gt;Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned.<BR><BR><BR><BR>=A0 =A0 Although Clif certainly had many faults, he was not quite as abs=<BR>urd as=20<BR><BR>this<BR><BR>silly bastard. Clif would present an idea and then get really pissed whe=<BR>n<BR><BR>other listmembers would shoot it through with holes. This fellow seems<BR><BR>barely capable of generating a coherent sentence, let alone coming up wi=<BR>th<BR><BR>an idea worthy of having holes shot through it.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Oh, but it's ok for YOU to be insultive, right?? BTW, who i=<BR>s this Cliff=20<BR><BR>person??<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_43.10e7b8b2.27c36e8b_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:02:00 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>- --part1_bd.be5d80c.27c37068_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR>&gt; Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set<BR>to delete.<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>Oh, if only Juno allowed for killfiles.<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; hhmmmmm........me thinks me hole hath gotten deeper still.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_bd.be5d80c.27c37068_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>&amp;gt; Are you people done with boring the &amp;amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR><BR>&amp;gt; <BR><BR>&amp;gt; For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set<BR><BR>to delete.<BR><BR>&amp;gt; <BR><BR><BR><BR>Oh, if only Juno allowed for killfiles.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR><BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;hhmmmmm........me thinks me hole hath gotten deeper still.<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_bd.be5d80c.27c37068_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:03:35 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>- --part1_65.1019788c.27c370c7_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><BR>I hate to reply with a "Me too" message... but, yeah, same here.<BR><BR>On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:28:37 -0800 "Kiri Aradia Morgan"<BR>&lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt; writes:<BR>&gt; Actually I'm the one who is having the shit bored out of me by=20<BR>&gt; someone who<BR>&gt; posts, in HTML, inane little one or two line responses to every damn=20<BR>&gt; post on<BR>&gt; the list.=A0 I suggest as respectfully as I can, in return to this=20<BR>&gt; comment--<BR>&gt; that you find a life.<BR>&gt;=20<BR>&gt; Kiri=A0 ^_^<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0=A0 -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0=A0 From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com &lt;ComputerFoolish@aol.com&gt;<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0=A0 To: traveller@lists.ient.com &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0=A0 Date: Saturday, February 17, 2001 2:26 PM<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0=A0 Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>&gt;=20<BR>&gt;=20<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0=A0 Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR>&gt;=20<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20=<BR>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; uuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhh.........................me too???<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_65.1019788c.27c370c7_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3><BR><BR>I hate to reply with a "Me too" message... but, yeah, same here.<BR><BR><BR><BR>On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:28:37 -0800 "Kiri Aradia Morgan"<BR><BR>&amp;lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&amp;gt; writes:<BR><BR>&amp;gt; Actually I'm the one who is having the shit bored out of me by=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt; someone who<BR><BR>&amp;gt; posts, in HTML, inane little one or two line responses to every dam=<BR>n=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt; post on<BR><BR>&amp;gt; the list.=A0 I suggest as respectfully as I can, in return to this=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt; comment--<BR><BR>&amp;gt; that you find a life.<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt; Kiri=A0 ^_^<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0 =A0=A0 -----Original Message-----<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0 =A0=A0 From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com &amp;lt;ComputerFoolish@aol.com=<BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0 =A0=A0 To: traveller@lists.ient.com &amp;lt;traveller@lists.ient.com=<BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0 =A0=A0 Date: Saturday, February 17, 2001 2:26 PM<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0 =A0=A0 Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0 =A0=A0 Are you people done with boring the &amp;amp;^%*$ out of us a=<BR>lready?????<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20=<BR>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;uuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhh.........................me too??=<BR>?<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_65.1019788c.27c370c7_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:06:17 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: [TML] What's in a name? (was: Deep Space Jumps)<BR><BR>- --part1_4f.7a70a63.27c37169_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><BR>Day 4:=A0 Buxom Blonde Pirate departs in her new ship with her<BR>new Pirate Crew.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;=A0=A0 Day 1 :: I'm a pirate captain and my wife calls me Schmoopy in<BR>&gt; public.<BR>&gt;=A0=A0 Day 2 :: There's a malfunction in an airlock and said wife dies a<BR>&gt; horrible<BR>&gt; deep space death.<BR>&gt;=A0=A0 Day 3 :: We dock and I pay a visit to that buxom blonde in the<BR>&gt; starport<BR>&gt; bar.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ::loud boisterous applause for a very good response::<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR>- --part1_4f.7a70a63.27c37169_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3><BR><BR>Day 4:=A0 Buxom Blonde Pirate departs in her new ship with her<BR><BR>new Pirate Crew.<BR><BR><BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR><BR><BR>ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0=A0 Day 1 :: I'm a pirate captain and my wife calls me Schmoopy i=<BR>n<BR><BR>&amp;gt; public.<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0=A0 Day 2 :: There's a malfunction in an airlock and said wife di=<BR>es a<BR><BR>&amp;gt; horrible<BR><BR>&amp;gt; deep space death.<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0=A0 Day 3 :: We dock and I pay a visit to that buxom blonde in th=<BR>e<BR><BR>&amp;gt; starport<BR><BR>&amp;gt; bar.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;::loud boisterous applause for a ve=<BR>ry good response::<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D</FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_4f.7a70a63.27c37169_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:08:46 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>- --part1_34.111a046c.27c371fe_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR>Score: <BR>TML Legal Dream Team: 1 <BR>Shaggy3D: 0<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Check the scoreboard again. I think I'm actually down by about 7 points <BR>now.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Better they hang me than an innocent man.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR><BR>- --part1_34.111a046c.27c371fe_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>Score: <BR><BR>TML Legal Dream Team: 1 <BR><BR>Shaggy3D: 0<BR><BR><BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Check the scoreboard again. I think I'm actually down by about 7 points <BR><BR>now.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Better they hang me than an innocent man.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_34.111a046c.27c371fe_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:10:28 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Source Code request?<BR><BR>Thing wrote:<BR>&gt; C code would be great.&nbsp; I mainly do windows based coding Visual Basic &amp;<BR>&gt; Visual C/C++.&nbsp; I can handle the clipping and the actual platform specific<BR>&gt; drawing routines.&nbsp; What I am mainly looking for is how to figure out where<BR>&gt; the vertices of the hexagons are on a X,Y coordinate system for the line<BR>&gt; drawing routines.&nbsp; I tried to do some calculating based on the angles, but<BR>&gt; something in my math or my measurements are off as the hexagons come out<BR>&gt; distorted.<BR><BR>Oh, OK.&nbsp; The following routine is clipped out and somewhat modified<BR>from my own hex-grid drawing program.&nbsp; It takes the (X,Y) coordinates<BR>of the top left and bottom right points of a rectangular region, and<BR>returns a pointer to an array of line segments.&nbsp; The origin of the<BR>coordinate system is at the top-left corner of a hexagon, and the<BR>hexagon centres are unit distance apart.<BR><BR>The returned array includes all segments that *may* be partially<BR>within the region -- it usually returns a few more, hence the need for<BR>clipping.&nbsp; You will need to scale and offset the coordinates to<BR>whatever you use for on-screen display or printing.&nbsp; Remember to free<BR>the array after use.<BR><BR>The function has been hacked to return segments instead of doing the<BR>drawing itself, and (since you're using Traveller) rearranged so that<BR>the hexes form columns like the sector maps, rather than rows.<BR><BR><BR>struct point {<BR>&nbsp; double x, y;<BR>};<BR><BR>struct segment {<BR>&nbsp; struct point p1, p2;<BR>};<BR><BR>struct drawlist {<BR>&nbsp; int size;<BR>&nbsp; int used;<BR>&nbsp; struct segment * lines;<BR>};<BR><BR><BR>void<BR>draw_vertex (double x, double y, struct drawlist * draw);<BR><BR><BR>int hex_grid (struct point *tl, struct point *br, struct drawlist * draw)<BR>{<BR>&nbsp; double i, j;<BR>&nbsp; double x, y;<BR>&nbsp; double min_x, min_y;<BR>&nbsp; double dx, dy;<BR>&nbsp; int nx, ny, numlines;<BR><BR>&nbsp; dx = sqrt(3);<BR>&nbsp; dy = 1.0;<BR><BR>&nbsp; if (br-&gt;x &lt;= tl-&gt;x || br-&gt;y &lt;= tl-&gt;y) return 0;<BR>&nbsp; nx = floor ((br-&gt;x - tl-&gt;x) / dx) + 2;<BR>&nbsp; ny = floor ((br-&gt;y - tl-&gt;y) / dy) + 4;<BR>&nbsp; numlines = 6 * nx * ny;<BR><BR>&nbsp; if (draw-&gt;size &gt; 0 &amp;&amp; draw-&gt;lines != NULL)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; {<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; free (draw-&gt;lines);<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; draw-&gt;lines = NULL;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; draw-&gt;size = 0;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; }<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;lines = (struct segment *) calloc (numlines, sizeof(struct segment));<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;size = numlines;<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;used = 0;<BR><BR>&nbsp; if (draw-&gt;lines == NULL) return -1;<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; min_x = dx * floor ((tl-&gt;x + dx/6) / dx);<BR>&nbsp; min_y = floor (tl-&gt;y);<BR><BR>&nbsp; /* The grid can be tiled with pairs of vertices, shaped as follows:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; \_<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; / \_<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; /<BR>&nbsp; */<BR>&nbsp; for (i = 0; i &lt; nx; i++)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; {<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; x = min_x + i*dx;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for (j = 0; j &lt; ny; j++) <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; {<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; y = min_y + j;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; draw_vertex (x, y, draw);<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; draw_vertex (x + dx/2, y + 0.5, draw);<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; }<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; }<BR><BR>&nbsp; return numlines;<BR>}<BR><BR><BR>void<BR>draw_vertex (double x, double y, struct drawlist * draw)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; /* Draws three lines meeting at the vertex of a hexagon */<BR>{<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;lines[draw-&gt;used].p1.x = x;<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;lines[draw-&gt;used].p1.y = y;<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;lines[draw-&gt;used].p2.x = x - sqrt(3)/6;<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;lines[draw-&gt;used].p2.y = y - 0.5;<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;used++;<BR><BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;lines[draw-&gt;used].p1.x = x;<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;lines[draw-&gt;used].p1.y = y;<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;lines[draw-&gt;used].p2.x = x - sqrt(3)/6;<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;lines[draw-&gt;used].p2.y = y + 0.5;<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;used++;<BR><BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;lines[draw-&gt;used].p1.x = x;<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;lines[draw-&gt;used].p1.y = y;<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;lines[draw-&gt;used].p2.x = x + sqrt(3)/3;<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;lines[draw-&gt;used].p2.y = y;<BR>&nbsp; draw-&gt;used++;<BR>}<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:11:14 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?<BR><BR>- --part1_f2.7a5e58e.27c37292_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR>Jeffrey Michael Malone wrote:<BR>&gt; If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does this<BR>&gt; count as keyboard kill?=A0 literally?) then I shall fear the worst...<BR><BR>My right control key is not working. It's stuck.<BR><BR>Should I be worried?<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; kO, tahw eht kceh si gniog no ereh???<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; D3yggahS<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; =20<BR><BR>- --part1_f2.7a5e58e.27c37292_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3>Jeffrey Michael Malone wr=<BR>ote:<BR><BR>&amp;gt; If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does this<BR><BR>&amp;gt; count as keyboard kill?=A0 literally?) then I shall fear the worst.=<BR>..<BR><BR><BR><BR>My right control key is not working. It's stuck.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Should I be worried?<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;kO, tahw eht kceh si gniog no ereh???<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;D3yggahS<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;</FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_f2.7a5e58e.27c37292_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:13:26 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>- --part1_46.10d74049.27c37316_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><BR>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:<BR>&gt; I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has a<BR>&gt; troll. Please!??!<BR><BR>Not normally. The best method of dealing with this... person would be to<BR>set up a filter to delete all mail from him (put him in the killfile).<BR><BR>If you need help with this, drop me a private mail and I'll gladly help<BR>you. I'm killfiling him right now.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Geez, talk about your bad starts.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Have I really upset people THAT much????<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Would an apology help?????<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_46.10d74049.27c37316_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2><BR><BR>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:<BR><BR>&amp;gt; I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has a<BR><BR>&amp;gt; troll. Please!??!<BR><BR><BR><BR>Not normally. The best method of dealing with this... person would be to<BR><BR>set up a filter to delete all mail from him (put him in the killfile).<BR><BR><BR><BR>If you need help with this, drop me a private mail and I'll gladly help<BR><BR>you. I'm killfiling him right now.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Geez, talk about your bad starts.<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Have I really upset people THAT much????<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Would an apology help?????<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_46.10d74049.27c37316_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:20:13 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Indefinite life span<BR><BR>- --part1_a.9111351.27c374ad_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR>If aging was cured, then the average life expectancy (before you were killed <BR>in an accident or caught a deadly disease) would be around 1800 years.<BR><BR>Food for thought,<BR><BR>Rodge<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; So basically what you're saying is that this list has another 1,763 years <BR>of hating me left to go??&nbsp; ZOINKS!!!<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_a.9111351.27c374ad_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>If aging was cured, then the average life expectancy (before you were killed <BR><BR>in an accident or caught a deadly disease) would be around 1800 years.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Food for thought,<BR><BR><BR><BR>Rodge<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;So basically what you're saying is that this list has another 1,763 years <BR><BR>of hating me left to go?? &amp;nbsp;ZOINKS!!!<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_a.9111351.27c374ad_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3708<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-ye03.mx.aol.com (rly-ye03.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.200]) by air-ye04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:22:18 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:21:45 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id CAA74735;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:20:59 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:20:56 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id CAA74697<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:20:55 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:20:55 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102200720.CAA74697@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3708<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3709</B></TD></TR>
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<TD>2/20/01 12:42:31 AM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 20 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3709<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: TGOOs<BR>Re: Source Code request?<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts<BR>Re: giving too much credit<BR>Re: Deep Space Jumps<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>Re: Interesting spots to visit<BR>Re: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Shaggy3d<BR>Re: Going Offlist and Princess Bride<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:22:05 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: TGOOs<BR><BR>- --part1_56.777e982.27c3751d_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><BR>On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:21:33 -0500 (EST), GDWGAMES@aol.com (Loren Wiseman,<BR>yes, _that_ Loren Wiseman) wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;When I first subscribed, I lurked for a while, and most of the list was=20<BR>taken=20<BR>&gt;up with the debate over whether or not I should be allowed to subscribe.<BR><BR>&lt;grin&gt; I remember that!=A0 I think we've grown up a bit since then...<BR><BR>When I subscribed, it was under a different address (@execnet.com), I got<BR>my mail through a BBS rather than POPing it, the TML was at engrg.uwo.ca,<BR>and I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.<BR><BR>OTOH, there is no professionally-published Traveller material over my<BR>signature.=A0 I guess that makes me merely a TLOO (...lesser...).<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; So I guess that makes me the next human in line to be sacrificed. ::GULP:=<BR>:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR><BR>- --part1_56.777e982.27c3751d_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3><BR><BR>On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:21:33 -0500 (EST), GDWGAMES@aol.com (Loren Wisema=<BR>n,<BR><BR>yes, _that_ Loren Wiseman) wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;gt;When I first subscribed, I lurked for a while, and most of the list=20=<BR>was=20<BR><BR>taken=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt;up with the debate over whether or not I should be allowed to subscr=<BR>ibe.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;lt;grin&amp;gt; I remember that!=A0 I think we've grown up a bit since then=<BR>...<BR><BR><BR><BR>When I subscribed, it was under a different address (@execnet.com), I go=<BR>t<BR><BR>my mail through a BBS rather than POPing it, the TML was at engrg.uwo.ca=<BR>,<BR><BR>and I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.<BR><BR><BR><BR>OTOH, there is no professionally-published Traveller material over my<BR><BR>signature.=A0 I guess that makes me merely a TLOO (...lesser...).<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;So I guess that makes me the next human in line to be sacri=<BR>ficed. ::GULP::<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_56.777e982.27c3751d_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:26:02 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Source Code request?<BR><BR>Timothy Little wrote:<BR>&gt; The function has been hacked to return segments instead of doing the<BR>&gt; drawing itself, and (since you're using Traveller) rearranged so that<BR>&gt; the hexes form columns like the sector maps, rather than rows.<BR>[...]<BR><BR>Oops, this was meant to be a direct email, not spamming everyone on<BR>the list with pages of C code.&nbsp; Sorry, I'll remember to press the<BR>correct button next time.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:26:55 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>- --part1_95.7208686.27c3763f_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><BR>At 05:24 PM 2/17/2001 EST, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR><BR>Oh, *forgive* us.. hoe dare we discuss something not of interest to you<BR>(whoever the hell you may be.. I've never seen this address until recently.)<BR><BR>After all, the TML isn't a list for the discussion of Traveller in all its<BR>aspects, but a place where the talented among us entertain and write<BR>campaigns for the clueless.=A0 God forbid we should get into an area of<BR>esoterica that is directly useful to every single member of the list!<BR><BR>On that note I demand that everyone stop the thread on cold sleep, because<BR>I'm not interested!=A0 So there!<BR><BR>Here's a free clue:=A0 If you don't like a topic, ignore it.=A0 If you reply=<BR>to<BR>a message, quote a few lines so the rest of us can figure out what you are<BR>responding to, and don't have to play guess the context.=A0 And finally, if<BR>you want somebody to write messages tailored to your desires I will be<BR>*happy* to do it...<BR><BR>... once your check clears.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; uuuuuhhhhhh......................ok.&nbsp;&nbsp; :;checks bank account::<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_95.7208686.27c3763f_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3><BR><BR>At 05:24 PM 2/17/2001 EST, you wrote:<BR><BR>&amp;gt;Are you people done with boring the &amp;amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR><BR><BR><BR>Oh, *forgive* us.. hoe dare we discuss something not of interest to you<BR><BR>(whoever the hell you may be.. I've never seen this address until recent=<BR>ly.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>After all, the TML isn't a list for the discussion of Traveller in all i=<BR>ts<BR><BR>aspects, but a place where the talented among us entertain and write<BR><BR>campaigns for the clueless.=A0 God forbid we should get into an area of<BR><BR>esoterica that is directly useful to every single member of the list!<BR><BR><BR><BR>On that note I demand that everyone stop the thread on cold sleep, becau=<BR>se<BR><BR>I'm not interested!=A0 So there!<BR><BR><BR><BR>Here's a free clue:=A0 If you don't like a topic, ignore it.=A0 If you r=<BR>eply to<BR><BR>a message, quote a few lines so the rest of us can figure out what you a=<BR>re<BR><BR>responding to, and don't have to play guess the context.=A0 And finally,=<BR>if<BR><BR>you want somebody to write messages tailored to your desires I will be<BR><BR>*happy* to do it...<BR><BR><BR><BR>... once your check clears.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;uuuuuhhhhhh......................ok. &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;:;ch=<BR>ecks bank account::<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_95.7208686.27c3763f_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:36:51 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt; "Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has a<BR>&gt; &gt; troll. Please!??!<BR>&gt; Not normally. The best method of dealing with this... person would be to<BR>&gt; set up a filter to delete all mail from him (put him in the killfile).<BR>&gt; If you need help with this, drop me a private mail and I'll gladly help<BR>&gt; you. I'm killfiling him right now.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Geez, talk about your bad starts.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Have I really upset people THAT much????<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Would an apology help?????<BR><BR>Yes, you have upset people that much. I have sent you two private emails<BR>explaining why you upset people and what you could do to correct it.<BR><BR>I am against killfiling people on mailing lists, but you are very close to<BR>the mark.<BR><BR>Apology would be the first thing that might start us not being annoyed<BR>with you. It will not help very much. <BR><BR>The thing that could help is that you read the advice I sent you on email<BR>and behaving. Also, please lessen your posts.<BR><BR>It would be good if you could just read the list for some time, maybe a<BR>month or so, and try to understand how people behave themselves here.<BR>Please do that.<BR><BR>This is also for your own benefit; it does not pay to annoy people and<BR>not listen to them. It does you no good if everybody just ignores you,<BR>while sometime into the future you might have something to say. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>+++++++++[&gt;+++++++++&lt;-]&gt;-.&lt;+++++[&gt;+++&lt;-]++&gt;++.&lt;++[&gt;++++&lt;-]+&gt;+.&lt;++[&gt;----<BR>&lt;-]&gt;-.&gt;+++[&gt;++++++++++&lt;-]++&gt;++pare@iki.fi&lt;+[&gt;++++&lt;-]&gt;+.-&gt;+[&gt;++++[&lt;&lt;---&gt;<BR>&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;.&gt;&gt;+++++++[&lt;++++++++++&gt;-]++++[&lt;+++++&gt;-]&lt;-.&gt;[-]&gt;+++[&gt;++[&lt;&lt;&lt;----&gt;&gt;<BR>&lt;&gt;&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;&lt;.+.&gt;[-]++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;.++.[-]&gt;[-]++++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;++.&gt;&gt;++[&gt;++[&gt;-&lt;-]&lt;--]<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:42:38 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts<BR><BR>- --part1_31.10b1dfd0.27c379ee_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><BR>&gt; On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to<BR>delete.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>Perhaps it should be mentioned that this is a subscribed list and that the<BR>poster can be banned from the list. Meanwhile a mail filter is the way to<BR>go. Let me add that I too have never had to filter posters from this list,<BR>with a single exception. I trust this "ComputerFool" will move on once we've<BR>all ignored him.<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; I don't ignore anyone. I've read ALL the mail since being on this list. <BR>I've learned a lot it the past week. I appreciate it all, I really do. If you <BR>choose to ignore me, so be it. Or perhaps you could try to get to know me <BR>better. Then maybe you wouldn't be so quick to judge. I dunno. ::shrugs:: <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_31.10b1dfd0.27c379ee_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2><BR><BR>&amp;gt; On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>&amp;gt; &amp;gt; Are you people done with boring the &amp;amp;^%*$ out of us already?????<BR><BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>&amp;gt; For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to<BR><BR>delete.<BR><BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>Perhaps it should be mentioned that this is a subscribed list and that the<BR><BR>poster can be banned from the list. Meanwhile a mail filter is the way to<BR><BR>go. Let me add that I too have never had to filter posters from this list,<BR><BR>with a single exception. I trust this "ComputerFool" will move on once we've<BR><BR>all ignored him.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR><BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR><BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;I don't ignore anyone. I've read ALL the mail since being on this list. <BR><BR>I've learned a lot it the past week. I appreciate it all, I really do. If you <BR><BR>choose to ignore me, so be it. Or perhaps you could try to get to know me <BR><BR>better. Then maybe you wouldn't be so quick to judge. I dunno. ::shrugs:: <BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_31.10b1dfd0.27c379ee_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:58:33 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: giving too much credit<BR><BR>- --part1_ad.720f310.27c37da9_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><BR>Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt; puts out into the Ether:<BR>&gt; &gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt; &gt;=A0 =A0 Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction written in the=<BR>50's<BR>&gt; &gt; and 60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Troll: (-1)<BR><BR>Trolls are usually more clever.=A0 This doesn't even reach the level of well=<BR>=20<BR>written chat script.<BR>Looks more like natural ability just shining through...<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Ok, I definitely have NOT made a good first impression here have I?? Is i=<BR>t=20<BR>possible to go out and come back in to try again?? Then again, maybe not.=20<BR>Tell ya what, I'll just shut up for a while. Ok??<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =20<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR><BR>- --part1_ad.720f310.27c37da9_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3><BR><BR>Timothy Little &amp;lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&amp;gt; puts out into=20=<BR>the Ether:<BR><BR>&amp;gt; &amp;gt; In mail you write:<BR><BR>&amp;gt; &amp;gt;=A0 =A0 Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction writ=<BR>ten in the 50's<BR><BR>&amp;gt; &amp;gt; and 60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!<BR><BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>&amp;gt;Troll: (-1)<BR><BR><BR><BR>Trolls are usually more clever.=A0 This doesn't even reach the level of=20=<BR>well=20<BR><BR>written chat script.<BR><BR>Looks more like natural ability just shining through...<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Ok, I definitely have NOT made a good first impression here=<BR>have I?? Is it=20<BR><BR>possible to go out and come back in to try again?? Then again, maybe not=<BR>.=20<BR><BR>Tell ya what, I'll just shut up for a while. Ok??<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_ad.720f310.27c37da9_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:10:44 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps<BR><BR>DaveShayne wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; As I've said before and will say again -- jump drives are massively<BR>&gt; &gt; more expensive than maneuver drives.&nbsp; If you don't need the speed,<BR>&gt; &gt; don't pay the premium.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; At any interstellar distance the much greater number of trips that the<BR>&gt; jump capable ship can perform more than offsets the added costs<BR>&gt; of the jump drive (I'll have to trot out High Guard and see if I can<BR>&gt; figure out what the break-even distance is.)<BR><BR>There isn't really a fixed break-even distance -- it all depends upon<BR>how much time you can take.&nbsp; Each doubling of time divides the amount<BR>of thrust required by 4 (even more for near-c speeds).&nbsp; So the cost of<BR>thrusters over time can be made arbitrarily low.<BR><BR>However, thrusters can't go beyond the speed of light if relativity<BR>holds.<BR><BR>Hmm - now that's an interesting thought.&nbsp; What if relativity *doesn't*<BR>hold in the Traveller universe, and thrusters can accelerate beyond c?<BR>Thrusters *are* based on technology just as magical as the jump<BR>drives, after all.&nbsp; Does it actually state anywhere that thrusters<BR>can't accelerate a spaceship beyond c?<BR><BR>It would take even a 6G thruster of this type 90 weeks to travel 6<BR>parsecs, so it's hardly a major threat to jump drives as a basis for<BR>communication and passenger transport.&nbsp; However, they might be used in<BR>transporting huge amounts of bulk freight over large distances.<BR>Automated, I expect.&nbsp; Maybe with a crewmember or two in cold sleep to<BR>handle an emergency.<BR><BR>A low-thrust ship might take 20 years to go 2 parsecs -- but the whole<BR>ship costs only 200 Cr/ton of cargo, and running costs are minimal.<BR>We already know that rates of return are very low in the 3I, so maybe<BR>it would even be plausible to have such high latency.&nbsp; We know<BR>terraforming has been done, and that must have even longer timespans<BR>before returns start coming in.<BR><BR><BR>Pity I've already determined that relativity holds in my Traveller<BR>universe except for jump drives -- I kind of like the idea of "slow<BR>barges" carrying huge amounts of low-value stuff.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:30:05 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:04:27 -0600<BR>&gt; From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Democracy Now!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; All this take of legal systems and constitutions<BR>&gt; leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want<BR>&gt; to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.<BR>&gt; With a goal to create a Federal Republic type<BR>&gt; system.&nbsp; Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!<BR>&gt; There are ways to do it without following the<BR>&gt; American model.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I can dream can't I.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-P<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; bloo<BR><BR>Tsk, tsk, tsk.<BR><BR>bloo, bloo, bloo.<BR><BR>Don't you know the only historically vallid government<BR>for the Imperium is the scientific planned political economy.<BR><BR>It is time, tovariches, to proclaim the truth of the interstellar<BR>proletariat revolution! Long live the United Soviet Socialist Planets!<BR><BR>All power to the Soviets! Down with Tsarist Imperialism!<BR><BR>(At this point you must imagine the national anthem of the USSR*<BR>begining to swell as the party apparatchiks march in lock step on<BR>the palace.<BR><BR>*I can't find it at the moment but I've got a tape from the eighties<BR>with national anthems from quite a few countries. The "Hymn to<BR>the Soviet Union" (not sure if that's teh exact title) is a very moving<BR>piece of music.<BR><BR>David (leader of the Nth international congress) Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:13:53 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:40:43 EST<BR>&gt; From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Why not just keep it simple?? Don't tell me how to address the local<BR>&gt; noble at all times. Just tell me how to address him/her at THIS time.<BR>Then,<BR>&gt; keep the game going. Don't explain all the court politics to me, just tell<BR>me<BR>&gt; whats going on real quick and what I can as a player, dop about it.<BR>Simple.<BR><BR>This list is primarily a referee's resource. We come to this forum to bat<BR>around ideas on how certain aspects of the setting work in practice, what<BR>kinds of things are possible given the rulesets and the technological<BR>assumptions of the game, and to devise ever more evil tortures - excuse<BR>me - adventures for our players. In my opinion the more detail in these<BR>discussions the better. (And in the words of Mrs. Sloakum(sp?) "I am<BR>unanimous in this.") Will the players have to hear about all the details<BR>of quasi-co-qualified trimogeniture? no. But having an understanding<BR>of the rules behind a "third child inherits barring gross incompetence"<BR>form of inheritance will allow the referee to present this situation to<BR>the players in the level of detail needed by the players to get the<BR>proper suspension of disbelief. This list is the best place to toss these<BR>ideas around and get them (reasonably) worked out before the players<BR>get a chance to tear them apart in the game.<BR><BR>Should you not have an interest in the intricacies being discussed in<BR>some threads merely ignore them. That's what I do.<BR><BR>Oh and on a side note. Please be so kind as to disable HTML in your<BR>mailer. MIME posts become almost unreadable in the digest as well<BR>as roughly tripling the length of the post. I gather from your Addy that<BR>you may be unfortunate enough to have AOL 6.0 running on your<BR>computer. I understand that earlier versions of the AOL software<BR>are much less obnoxious about the Mime stuff and might be an<BR>acceptable alternate.<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Love me or hate me,<BR><BR>Am I allowed an extreme feeling of ambivalence?<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:21:09 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Interesting spots to visit<BR><BR>- --part1_a3.120cd06f.27c382f5_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR>Mark Urbin wrote<BR>&gt; Shaggy3D types out with at best, two fingers:<BR>&gt; &gt; Between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv you say?? Man,I'm gonna buy my ticket<BR>&gt; &gt; first thing tomorrow morning!! Oh yeah,I gotta see that,can't wait<BR>&gt; &gt; ,oh yeah!!Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Yea right.=A0 Sheesh.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This is an international mailing list with a lot of members in the high<BR>&gt; tech business.<BR>&gt; Tel Aviv is the home to a lot of high tech companies.=A0 There is a lot of<BR>&gt; business travel there, even with the occasional car bomb going off.<BR><BR>Just to prove the point, I was attending a wedding reception this Saturday<BR>(for a pair of gamers, who started dating during a game of TNE, BTW) where a<BR>friend of mine (another gamer) who had just flown in from Taiwan for the<BR>wedding was talking about how damn difficult it was to get back into Israel<BR>once you'd been to the Lebanon...<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A longer, detailed explanation of my smartmouthed comment: I'm a blue=20<BR>collar worker who lives in the so-called "projects" and drives a beater back=<BR>=20<BR>and forth to work to pay the bills. I can't afford a ticket overseas let=20<BR>alone to the next state. i play Traveller as a game of adventure,not as a wa=<BR>y=20<BR>of exchanging detailed information except where necessary.=20<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Ok, so I'm not a high-tech freak, does that make me the "troll" of the=20<BR>TML?? I have straight forward opinions about things and i tend to forget I'm=<BR>=20<BR>not as smart as most people. Yes, i'm big enough to admit that. I shall=20<BR>attempt to refrain from further smart-mouthed comments in the future. As for=<BR>=20<BR>the comment I made earlier. Let it stand.=20<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; BTW, yes I type with two fingers. LOL.<BR>=20<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_a3.120cd06f.27c382f5_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3>Mark Urbin wrote<BR><BR>&amp;gt; Shaggy3D types out with at best, two fingers:<BR><BR>&amp;gt; &amp;gt; Between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv you say?? Man,I'm gonna buy my=20=<BR>ticket<BR><BR>&amp;gt; &amp;gt; first thing tomorrow morning!! Oh yeah,I gotta see that,can't=20=<BR>wait<BR><BR>&amp;gt; &amp;gt; ,oh yeah!!Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Yea right.=A0 Sheesh.<BR><BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>&amp;gt; This is an international mailing list with a lot of members in the=20=<BR>high<BR><BR>&amp;gt; tech business.<BR><BR>&amp;gt; Tel Aviv is the home to a lot of high tech companies.=A0 There is a=<BR>lot of<BR><BR>&amp;gt; business travel there, even with the occasional car bomb going off.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Just to prove the point, I was attending a wedding reception this Saturd=<BR>ay<BR><BR>(for a pair of gamers, who started dating during a game of TNE, BTW) whe=<BR>re a<BR><BR>friend of mine (another gamer) who had just flown in from Taiwan for the<BR><BR>wedding was talking about how damn difficult it was to get back into Isr=<BR>ael<BR><BR>once you'd been to the Lebanon...<BR><BR><BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;A longer, detailed explanation of my smar=<BR>tmouthed comment: I'm a blue=20<BR><BR>collar worker who lives in the so-called "projects" and drives a beater=20=<BR>back=20<BR><BR>and forth to work to pay the bills. I can't afford a ticket overseas let=<BR>=20<BR><BR>alone to the next state. i play Traveller as a game of adventure,not as=20=<BR>a way=20<BR><BR>of exchanging detailed information except where necessary.=20<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Ok, so I'm not a high-tech freak, does that make me t=<BR>he "troll" of the=20<BR><BR>TML?? I have straight forward opinions about things and i tend to forget=<BR>I'm=20<BR><BR>not as smart as most people. Yes, i'm big enough to admit that. I shall=20<BR><BR>attempt to refrain from further smart-mouthed comments in the future. As=<BR>for=20<BR><BR>the comment I made earlier. Let it stand.=20<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;BTW, yes I type with two fingers. LOL.<BR><BR>=20<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_a3.120cd06f.27c382f5_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:35:56 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Ship habitability<BR><BR>- --part1_40.7a7e0f6.27c3866c_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><BR>=A0 I don't think that robots=20<BR>&gt; would fit the=20<BR>&gt; bill either.<BR>&gt;=20<BR>&gt;=20<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 Larsen<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Certainly not! Two very good reasons:<BR><BR>1) Maintaining clean quarters is a good discipline exercise<BR><BR>2) You'd need storage space to keep the robot in.<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Yes, but what about a compact robot designed for the specific task of=20<BR>keeping the quarters clean leaving the crew to deal with their duties on a=20<BR>full time basis. Such as when the crew is involved in a war and on full time=<BR>=20<BR>alert status?? Wouldn't that make the use of a robot onboard a plausible=20<BR>idea??<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_40.7a7e0f6.27c3866c_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3><BR><BR>=A0 I don't think that robots=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt; would fit the=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt; bill either.<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=20<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 Larsen<BR><BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR><BR><BR>Certainly not! Two very good reasons:<BR><BR><BR><BR>1) Maintaining clean quarters is a good discipline exercise<BR><BR><BR><BR>2) You'd need storage space to keep the robot in.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Yes, but what about a compact robot designed for the specif=<BR>ic task of=20<BR><BR>keeping the quarters clean leaving the crew to deal with their duties on=<BR>a=20<BR><BR>full time basis. Such as when the crew is involved in a war and on full=20=<BR>time=20<BR><BR>alert status?? Wouldn't that make the use of a robot onboard a plausible=<BR>=20<BR><BR>idea??<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_40.7a7e0f6.27c3866c_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:37:49 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Shaggy3d<BR><BR>- --part1_b3.7509fee.27c386dd_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR>Could it be possible for the DNA remaining in a pair of trainers/sneakers <BR>(after Ditzie has, ahem, 'spoken to' the wearer) to be reincarnated?<BR><BR>I'm certainly not a TGOO (or any other sort of GOO), but I think I may <BR>almost be up to the level of GSR (or maybe just LSR).<BR><BR>Someone pass the Shantaks, please...<BR><BR>Jeff.<BR><BR>(ps Shaggy3d, please do not take offence at the above.)<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; None taken. Thank you.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_b3.7509fee.27c386dd_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>Could it be possible for the DNA remaining in a pair of trainers/sneakers <BR><BR>(after Ditzie has, ahem, 'spoken to' the wearer) to be reincarnated?<BR><BR><BR><BR>I'm certainly not a TGOO (or any other sort of GOO), but I think I may <BR><BR>almost be up to the level of GSR (or maybe just LSR).<BR><BR><BR><BR>Someone pass the Shantaks, please...<BR><BR><BR><BR>Jeff.<BR><BR><BR><BR>(ps Shaggy3d, please do not take offence at the above.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;None taken. Thank you.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_b3.7509fee.27c386dd_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:40:11 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Going Offlist and Princess Bride<BR><BR>- --part1_f5.76a3725.27c3876b_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><BR>Well folks, I'm off for four days of management training in the sunny Milton<BR>Keynes. Because I don't want to blow up my exchange server, I'll be<BR>unsubbing 'till Friday, so please feel free to talk about me beind my back<BR>:)Dean<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; I bet you people thought I was gonna jump on this chance, huh?? LOL.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Take care Dean, see ya when ya get back.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR>- --part1_f5.76a3725.27c3876b_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2><BR><BR>Well folks, I'm off for four days of management training in the sunny Milton<BR><BR>Keynes. Because I don't want to blow up my exchange server, I'll be<BR><BR>unsubbing 'till Friday, so please feel free to talk about me beind my back<BR><BR>:)Dean<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;I bet you people thought I was gonna jump on this chance, huh?? LOL.<BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Take care Dean, see ya when ya get back.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D</FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_f5.76a3725.27c3876b_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3709<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (rly-zd01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.225]) by air-zd04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:42:31 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:42:07 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id DAA78362;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:40:52 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:40:48 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id DAA78320<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:40:48 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:40:48 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102200840.DAA78320@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3709<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 20 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3710<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re : Anti-aging multi-faceted (attn: Robert)...<BR>Official Traveller Message Boards<BR>RE: En Garde<BR>Re: En Garde<BR>Geophysical/Climate question<BR>RE: Civility and Politeness<BR>RE: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>RE: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>Re: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: TGOOs<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:59:22 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Anti-aging multi-faceted (attn: Robert)...<BR><BR>Roger Sanger wrote :-<BR>&gt; But the "anagathic" I was referring to extends a species' maximum<BR>&gt; genetic lifespan.<BR>What does this mean?<BR>For example, the genes coding for globins are almost 300 million years old,<BR>with minimal divergence in structure between vertebrate and invertebrate<BR>phyla.<BR><BR>Does it refer to a prolongation of the fertile part of the life cycle?<BR><BR>The logical outcome measure for our putative drug is an increase in average<BR>life expectancy, or a slowing or arrest of progression of age related<BR>dysfunction as a surrogate marker.<BR><BR>&gt; "The Aging Process" is a misnomer, as there are currently 8 known<BR>&gt; categories of aging processes:<BR>This sounds like a sales pitch or a memorisation device.<BR><BR>Your list can be restated as follows :-<BR><BR>Aging is a process that affects all organ systems.<BR>It is divided into two phases.<BR>The first involves the growth and maturation phase from the foetal period to<BR>early adulthood.<BR>The second is characterised by an excess of cellular injury over repair, and<BR>a decline in functional organ mass, and therefore reserve, with time.<BR><BR>Or :-<BR>* Pathophysiology of Aging<BR>i. Excess of cellular injury over repair.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Mediated by (examples) :- free radicals, inappropriate inflammatory<BR>responses.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Characterised by (examples) :- protein cross-linking, lipofuscin (and<BR>other substances) accumulation, atherosclerosis.<BR>ii. Decrease in cell number and therefore functional organ mass.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Mediated by intracellular clocks, neuroendocrine and environmental<BR>factors.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Characterised by decline in function and physiological reserve with<BR>time.<BR><BR>The two categories are interdependent.<BR><BR>&gt; Degenerative diseases (thousands of them, with the main ones being<BR>&gt; atheroschlerosis, inflamation, and various pathogens such as<BR>&gt; bacteria, fungus, viruses, etc.).<BR>Inflammation appears to be a necessary prelude to repair in mammals. It is<BR>not a degenerative disease, but a primary physiological process. Only when<BR>repair is prevented is inflammation excessive or pathological.<BR><BR>Infectious diseases cause acute or chronic inflammation, depending on the<BR>organism. The latter group could be regarded as causing 'degenerative<BR>disease' ; it's a matter of semantics, but it is certainly not a medically<BR>correct usage.<BR><BR>&gt; As for telomeres, they have yet to show a direct cause/effect<BR>&gt; relationship between telomere length and the Hayflick Limit.<BR>In other words, correlated with, not associated with, the aging process. I<BR>should have been more explicit when I wrote :-<BR><BR>&gt; Note that telomeres are only part of the problem (referring to an earlier<BR>&gt; post of yours).<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:48:54 -0500<BR>From: "Hunter Gordon" &lt;trav@RPGRealms.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Official Traveller Message Boards<BR><BR>Far Future Enterprises is pleased to announce the opening of the Official Traveller message boards! We launch these boards as a central location where Traveller fans can get together, meet other Traveller players, and interact directly with those involved in bringing you the Traveller universe! This is the place for official news and announcements, answers to your questions, a place where you can have a voice in the future of Traveller. Marc Miller, creator of Traveller will be a regular contributor to these boards, so you can get the scoop directly from the source himself, including information on the fabled Fifth edition of Traveller (aka T5)!<BR><BR>We look forward to seeing you there!<BR><BR>http://www.farfuture.net<BR>(look for the message boards under Jump Points)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:55:19 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: En Garde<BR><BR>GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :<BR>&gt; Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow for<BR>&gt; female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and<BR>&gt; _Desiree_. Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king<BR>&gt; even moreso, but both had their rewards.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; There was even allowance for enlisting in the army disguised as a man,<BR>&gt; although this involved certain risks also.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; LKW<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Also had rules for the Navy -- heavily influenced by Hornblower et al.<BR><BR>Is there any chance of these being made accesible anywhere ?<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:52:08 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 19:22, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow for<BR>&gt; female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and _Desiree_.<BR>&gt; Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king even moreso, but both<BR>&gt; had their rewards.<BR><BR>Ohhh Ohh Ohhh, see must have. I suppose that these have long since <BR>disappeared into the great void of "might-have-been" (he says really really <BR>hoping for an answer in the negative).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 04:04:21 -0500<BR>From: "Greenly, Jeff" &lt;greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Geophysical/Climate question<BR><BR>TML'ers, esp. the hard science folks...<BR><BR>What effect would very active vulcanism, with all the intendant releases of<BR>sulfur dioxide, carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide,and most especially a large<BR>and constant release of fine tephra have on a standard Nitrogen/Oxygen<BR>atmosphere. I am especially interested in weather conditions. I realize,<BR>coming from coal country as I do, that acid rain is one factor, but what<BR>about the amount of precipitation increase due to suspended particulate<BR>matter? Would there be an increase in atmospheric ionization? What about<BR>global warming?Increased air instability? I realize that this is a lot, but<BR>it's for a Landgrab...Any help would be appreciated...&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>Jeff<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:03:47 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness<BR><BR>James wrote:<BR>&gt;Though in my experience, the only reliable sub killers are submarines<BR>&gt;themselves....<BR><BR>Actually, the best sub-killer is a P3 Orion.<BR>&lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:05:58 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; At 12:38 PM 2/19/2001 -0700, you wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;What is that they say on the c-130 gunships "Don't run away, you'll only<BR>&gt; &gt;die tired"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Ah, the AC-130 Spectre.. a plane most player characters would love.<BR><BR>Heck, even the old Spooky is fun for PCs<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 04:06:46 -0500<BR>From: "Chris Seamans" &lt;semo@pil.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>I wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Although Clif certainly had many faults, he was not quite as absurd<BR>as<BR>&gt;&gt;this silly bastard. Clif would present an idea and then get really pissed<BR>when<BR>&gt;&gt;other listmembers would shoot it through with holes. This fellow seems<BR>&gt;&gt;barely capable of generating a coherent sentence, let alone coming up with<BR>&gt;&gt;an idea worthy of having holes shot through it.<BR><BR>"ComputerFoolish (or "Shaggy 3D") wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; Oh, but it's ok for YOU to be insultive, right?? BTW, who is this Cliff<BR>&gt;person??<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Nice try, but if you'll notice, I never said anything about whether or not<BR>I believe that being insulting -- or as you've put it, "insultive" -- is<BR>"ok". Indeed, if you were to press me on the issue, I would have to admit,<BR>rather pleasantly, that I have no problem, whatsoever, with someone<BR>insulting someone else.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; What I do have a problem with is someone who bursts in on a mailing list<BR>and on his first day posts a number of inane, pointless and nonsensical one<BR>or two line posts and in doing so offers absolutely no respect to the<BR>posters of those messages. If you feel that I am giving you little respect,<BR>it is true. Your posts made a very bad first impression on me. I will meet<BR>you with the same respect that you give the others on this list -- many of<BR>whom, in some fashion, I consider friends. I've known some of these people<BR>for 4 or more years.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Think about it for a moment, Imagine that we are in the "real world": You<BR>are discussing various things with people you respect. All of a sudden,<BR>somebody comes stomping in. He turns to one of your friends and says, "Will<BR>you shut the hell up, you're boring me!". Then he turns to another and says,<BR>"What you're talking about has no value!" and so on. Think about how much<BR>respect you'd show that jackass.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; In this case, you are that jackass.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; As I said, I will meet you with the same respect you're showing to others<BR>on the list. If you feel that I'm disrespecting you, there is a quick and<BR>easy way to rectify the situation: show some respect to other people.<BR>Simple, eh?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:31:45 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 1:49, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; There were no two-deck frigates. There couldn't be, since part of the<BR>&gt; definition of being a frigate was not having two decks.<BR><BR>Technically correct (though I thought the definition was no guns on the gun <BR>deck, oxymoron though that is), but the monster frigates had their waists <BR>decked over from poop to fo'c'sle and mounted a full second bank of guns <BR>there, effectively making them two deckers. I believe the term double tier <BR>was used.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:31:45 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 7:31, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Again, US Army has two levels at this rank.. the vanilla SM, and Command<BR>&gt; Sergeants Major.&nbsp; CSMs are the senior NCOs in battalion or larger formations.<BR><BR>&gt; Sergeants Major are terrifying forces of nature.&nbsp; They really run the Army,<BR>&gt; although they let the officers pretend that they have something to do with it.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Very tolerant ones will even call 2nd Lieutenants "sir" on occasion.<BR><BR>Odd, my RSM was in the habit of reserving "Sir" for =&gt;3 pips, lesser <BR>officers got referred to as "Mr", I believe Queens regs required no more of <BR>him.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 04:43:29 EST<BR>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>- --part1_85.71ac430.27c39641_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR>Thou SHALT NOT speak the name of the UNHOLY<BR>here!<BR><BR>If you want me to be more specific, I will.<BR><BR>I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still<BR>Emperor in the 1120s-1140s.=A0 Screw Virus!=A0 :-P<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; I must wholeheartedly agree with "bloo" on this one. But it makes for an=20<BR>interesting campaign idea. What will things be like say 100 or 200 years fro=<BR>m=20<BR>TNE when the virus has run its course?? What would a campaign be like in tha=<BR>t=20<BR>future?? Some very interesting thoughts come to mind. Any comments from the=20<BR>list on ideas??<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shaggy3D<BR><BR>- --part1_85.71ac430.27c39641_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3>Thou SHALT NOT speak the=20=<BR>name of the UNHOLY<BR><BR>here!<BR><BR><BR><BR>If you want me to be more specific, I will.<BR><BR><BR><BR>I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still<BR><BR>Emperor in the 1120s-1140s.=A0 Screw Virus!=A0 :-P<BR><BR><BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;I must wholeheartedly agree with "bloo" on this one. But it=<BR>makes for an=20<BR><BR>interesting campaign idea. What will things be like say 100 or 200 years=<BR>from=20<BR><BR>TNE when the virus has run its course?? What would a campaign be like in=<BR>that=20<BR><BR>future?? Some very interesting thoughts come to mind. Any comments from=20=<BR>the=20<BR><BR>list on ideas??<BR><BR><BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp=<BR>;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nb=<BR>sp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;=<BR>nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Shaggy3D</FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_85.71ac430.27c39641_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:52:06 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 22:01, James Gilly / Alasdair MacIai wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; At 03:34 PM 2/19/01 +0000, John Lambert wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;In the Army and the Air Force (spun off from the Army), both 1st and 2nd <BR>&gt; &gt;Lieutenants are generally addressed as "Lieutenant".<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Same with a jig (LTjg) and an LT.&nbsp; A Lieutenant Commander and a Commander <BR>&gt; are both addressed as "Commander," and all warrant officers are called <BR>&gt; "Warrant."<BR><BR>Likewise both Corporals and Lance Corporals are called "Corporal". BTW in New <BR>Zealand, England and IIRc Australia Lieutenant is pronounced "Leftenant". Thus <BR>we don't have "Looie" as a nickname for a Lieutenant. Also we use the Indian <BR>Army term "Subaltern", which means (here) any Junior Officer (2nd Lt., Lt., <BR>Captain), although it's not usually applied to Captains unless you want to lump <BR>them in with the Lieutenants for some (usually insulting) reason. In these <BR>ranks unless you stuff up you'll be automatically promoted every three (?) <BR>years, but once you get to Captain promotion is by merit. There's some <BR>resentment of this amongst JNCOs because all enlisted ranks advance by merit, <BR>which often comes down to not pissing off you Platoon Sergeant (an appointment, <BR>not rank), CSM and Platoon Commander (a young 2nd Lt., ot Lt.), and it's not <BR>hard to get an 18 years old new Platton Commander down on your back by making <BR>them look dumb.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:59:56 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 5:10, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still Emperor in the<BR>&gt; 1120s-1140s.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; :-P"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bloo,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I'm with you, partner.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; Who spiked the water cooler when they<BR>&gt; came up with that one!??!<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; After the "Survival Margin" came out, a lady friend of mine actually <BR>&gt; had a "Strephon Lives" tee shirt made for me.&nbsp; A very kind thing to do.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; If T5's mileau hasn't been selected yet, that's where Mr. Miller should put<BR>&gt; it.&nbsp; Screw Virus and pass the antibiotic!<BR><BR>But Virus was sooo Kewl. And with it came FF&amp;S.<BR><BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:59:56 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 3:50, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;The Army could use the same device to flesh out it's infantry ranks.<BR><BR>As I said before, here we're using it to keep technical specialties in, with <BR>the predictable effect on infantry troop quality and morale. That the people <BR>who do the most dying get payed the least hasn't been lost on our infantry.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:12:46 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 22:31, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On 19 Feb 2001, at 7:31, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Again, US Army has two levels at this rank.. the vanilla SM, and Command<BR>&gt; &gt; Sergeants Major.&nbsp; CSMs are the senior NCOs in battalion or larger formations.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Sergeants Major are terrifying forces of nature.&nbsp; They really run the Army,<BR>&gt; &gt; although they let the officers pretend that they have something to do with it.<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; Very tolerant ones will even call 2nd Lieutenants "sir" on occasion.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Odd, my RSM was in the habit of reserving "Sir" for =&gt;3 pips, lesser <BR>&gt; officers got referred to as "Mr", I believe Queens regs required no more of him.<BR><BR>It's certainly correct to refer to a Lieutenant as "Mr. Dodds" in the third <BR>person, but if you not at least a Sergeant Major I don't recommend saying it to <BR>his face without permission. Most of the better ones preferred "Mr" from their <BR>men in semi-formal and informal environments.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:27:42 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; Thou SHALT NOT speak the name of the UNHOLY<BR>&gt; here! Screw Virus!&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>Do we get dinner and a movie first?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:12:04 GMT<BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; That being the case?&nbsp; What causes a rebellion is a discontent with the<BR>&gt;way life is.&nbsp; It isn't just a discontent per se, but a realization that<BR>&gt;things can't be worse.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Or - if things are starting to get better, people realise that change<BR>and improvement are possible, but the pace is too slow to satisfy them<BR>so they take matters into their own hands.<BR><BR>The most dangerous moment for any oppressive government is when it<BR>introduces limited reforms...<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; I don't know if this is what you meant or not.&nbsp; I would suggest that you<BR>&gt;look at what worlds are actually democratic and see if they might be<BR>&gt;willing to finance a guerilla warfare effort on the sly.&nbsp; I can also see<BR>&gt;where the Zhodani might be willing to work with a few Imperials in the<BR>&gt;following manner...<BR><BR>&lt;mode=devil's advocate&gt;<BR><BR>Why would the Zhodani sympathise with democracy?&nbsp; They're a<BR>totalitarian, hereditary oligarchy who even deny freedom of thought to<BR>their hapless subjects!<BR><BR>&lt;/mode&gt;<BR><BR>I *can* see the Zhos backing a rebellion and hoping it will _fail_,<BR>but in the process tie up Imperial strength for decades and prevent<BR>any hostile moves against the Consulate.&nbsp; (Hmm. Dulinor conspiracy<BR>theories, anyone?)&nbsp; <BR><BR>Unfortunately, the problem with that is that after the initial<BR>disruption, revolutions have the nasty habit of creating vigorous,<BR>aggressive regimes that unite popular support behind their ideologies<BR>and set about trying to spread these to all their neighbours...<BR><BR>Stephen<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt;In the news today, Imperial forces discovered a military build up of<BR>&gt;Zhodani forces near their borders.&nbsp; The Zhodani of course denied that they<BR>&gt;were rattling their sabres, but insisted they were merely conducting<BR>&gt;defensive manuevers against the day when Imperial forces might invade their<BR>&gt;territories.&nbsp; The Local Duke has responded with a limited mobilization, and<BR>&gt;has sent a requestion for instructions from the Arch Duke himself...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; This would mean that Imperial forces would be perhaps a mite thinner than<BR>&gt;they'd like.&nbsp; It would also explain why the garrison troops were used to<BR>&gt;put down demonstrations, and act as the trigger for a civil war incident.<BR>&gt;Perhaps one ship, armed with nuclear devices, truely by accident used a<BR>&gt;nuclear weapon that was either improperly identified as conventional, or<BR>&gt;was inproperly labled as conventional.&nbsp; Either way, the deaths of Imperial<BR>&gt;Citizens at the hand of the Navy would likely result in a furor over said<BR>&gt;event, perhaps sparking an even worse situation.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:12:07 GMT<BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>"DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;(At this point you must imagine the national anthem of the USSR*<BR>&gt;begining to swell as the party apparatchiks march in lock step on<BR>&gt;the palace.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;*I can't find it at the moment but I've got a tape from the eighties<BR>&gt;with national anthems from quite a few countries. The "Hymn to<BR>&gt;the Soviet Union" (not sure if that's teh exact title) is a very moving<BR>&gt;piece of music.<BR><BR>Historical trivia time:&nbsp; the participants in the *actual* Russian<BR>Revolution sang the "Internationale" (which was the USSR's national<BR>anthem until WW2) and even "La Marseillaise".&nbsp; <BR><BR>The song you're thinking of was, IIRC, supposedly "written" by Stalin<BR>in 1943 or so (in fact, he got a couple of composers to write songs,<BR>then took part of the tune from each of them).<BR><BR>ObTrav: do revolutionary movements such as the Ine Givar also plunder<BR>the iconography of other, older revolutions?<BR><BR>Stephen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:32:19 -0500<BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>At 03:25 AM 2/20/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The E-4's who worked for me did jobs more similar to E-1s and 2s in <BR>&gt; other divisions.&nbsp; They had to, we had no one who ranked any lower.<BR><BR>Before they changed the rules on RMs/ETs and Sonar Techs, a boat usually <BR>had half a dozen, at most, E3 or below (usually the cooks, yeomen, and <BR>strikers were the only non-POs).&nbsp; Now ETs and STSs arrive as E3s, or even <BR>E2s, but there still are less than a dozen non-POs at any one time.&nbsp; This <BR>means that E4s get the scut jobs.&nbsp; And when it's time for field day, even <BR>the E6s are down in the bilges....<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; I was an E-6, PO1, and my fellow E-6s and I had nothing in common with <BR>&gt; the real PO1s.&nbsp; My ship had a PO1 mess and lounge, but I never step foot <BR>&gt; in it unless ordered there for a "all-PO1" meeting with the XO or CO.<BR><BR>There was a "lifer locker" on the tender, too, but I was only in there once <BR>or twice - I preferred to eat with my friend, who were all E5s and E4s.<BR><BR>&gt;My ship had two seperate crews, de facto if not de jure.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; We called the non-nuc portion of the crew "consumers" and referred to <BR>&gt; ourselves as "California Water &amp; Light."<BR><BR>Nucs and "coners," on a boat.<BR><BR><BR>James<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:34:58 -0500<BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>At 03:50 AM 2/20/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As the military is forced to handle more and more technical duties, <BR>&gt; determining pay rates without taking into account the actual job being <BR>&gt; performed is asinine.&nbsp; We already pay pilots, divers, demo experts more, <BR>&gt; way not the hard to fill tech rates?<BR><BR>ANavs, the 3M coordinator, and the ship's LAN administrator.&nbsp; And let's not <BR>forget sub pay. 8)<BR><BR>&gt;Heck, why not ALL hard to fill rates more?&nbsp; The USN has far too many <BR>&gt;typewriter bangers and cooks, but far too few bosuns.&nbsp; Might "bosun pay" <BR>&gt;entice a few more into the rate?&nbsp; The Army could use the same device to <BR>&gt;flesh out it's infantry ranks.<BR><BR>You should see what's happened to SRB.&nbsp; I think the cap is now $60k for <BR>nucs, and $45k for non-nucs.&nbsp; And they're still having problems with <BR>manning....<BR><BR><BR>James<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:45:41 -0500<BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>At 10:40 PM 2/19/01 -0600, Charles Hensley wrote:<BR>&gt;There are also levels of Damage Control Teams.&nbsp; Each watch shift (2 - 4,<BR>&gt;depending on the ship) had a first team. First DC team always consists<BR>&gt;of all Hull Techs, all DC men, one electrician, and a Corpsman (who<BR>&gt;reports to the Infirmary), plus however many extra people needed to man<BR>&gt;the fire hoses, from that shift.&nbsp; 2nd team consists of 1 electrician,<BR>&gt;all otherwise unoccupied snipes (below decks crew), third team is<BR>&gt;EVERYBODY.&nbsp; Aircraft carriers also have the same thing for the flight<BR>&gt;deck (but I don't know who are the required personel).<BR><BR>One of the hardest things to get used to when I was on the tender was the <BR>idea of waking up to a fire drill ("Away the firecracker team.&nbsp; Firecracker <BR>team muster at repair locker three.&nbsp; Rescue and assistance detail muster at <BR>reapair locker five.") and just rolling over and going back to sleep.&nbsp; On <BR>the tender, the firecracker team was mainly composed of DC-men, with maybe <BR>a few HTs and EMs.&nbsp; The R&amp;A detail was drawn fro the duty section, and <BR>included all sorts of rates.&nbsp; (My first division included ETs, RMs, STSs, <BR>OMs, and IMs, and any of them could end up filling our slots on R&amp;A.)&nbsp; The <BR>DCC told us at duty-section training that in the case of a real major <BR>casualty, he would be drawing from the ranks of the SW-qualified personnel <BR>first, as they knew the most about skimmer-specific damage control.&nbsp; We <BR>bubbleheads would be next, as, while-we didn't know as much about skimmers, <BR>we were all DC-qualified.&nbsp; The general rabble would come last....<BR><BR>On a sub, on the other hand, DC is an all-hands evolution.&nbsp; If there's a <BR>fire or flooding, *everyone* is out of the rack.&nbsp; Certain watchstations are <BR>assigned certain dutues (as offgoing RMOW, for instance, I'm hoseman on #1 <BR>fire hose for a fire; as oncoming, I lay to Radio to help the on-watch RMOW <BR>prepare the emergency report), and everyone else musters on the mess decks <BR>(or aft, if the fire is forward) to be used as necessary.<BR><BR>Oh, and one thing never heard on submarines is "This is a drill, this is a <BR>drill."&nbsp; We treat a drill just like the real thing.<BR><BR><BR>James<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:48:26 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: TGOOs<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jones, Dean wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; Dead? Absolutely not! I myself still refer to the 'bit bucket' and black<BR>&gt;&gt; holes...and I even realised I'd referred to 'Black Magic' the other day!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The Computer Science student club had a year and a half ago a paper basket<BR>&gt; which had the words "/dev/null" on it... <BR><BR>Last time I checked was version 5, but MS-DOS actually supports a<BR>"\dev" directory. For example, try:<BR><BR>echo Hello World &gt;c:\dev\prn<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:04:01 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Unconscious within 16 seconds (core to 41 C), fitting shortly thereafter.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;I suspect that the brain might be close to the first affected organ.<BR>&gt;&gt;After all, the head is likely to be the closest part of the body to an<BR>&gt;&gt;(overhead) orbital maser.&nbsp; Temperature rise might be even faster there<BR>&gt;&gt;than elsewhere -- and my (non-medical) guess would be that it is also<BR>&gt;&gt;where temperature rises have the greatest effect.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Skin will die above 48 C. Proteins irreversibly denature above 55 C.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Skin would probably take a lot of the energy.&nbsp; I don't know what the<BR>&gt;&gt;attenuation depth in flesh for atmosphere-penetrating microwaves is.<BR>&gt;&gt;Strangely, that data is lacking from my references.&nbsp; I understand that<BR>&gt;&gt;domestic microwaves are of a frequency that would be absorbed by the<BR>&gt;&gt;atmosphere over these sorts of distances and are particularly well<BR>&gt;&gt;absorbed by liquid water, so I can't really extrapolate from what's<BR>&gt;&gt;known of them to orbital maser weapons.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; Wouldn't it be possible to shield against this kind of weapon, using either<BR>&gt; an overhead net (at the proper 1/4 wavelength weave or even in a helmet) to<BR>&gt; prevent the brain being cooked?<BR><BR>You have to deal with scatter. Also, such things will tend to stand out<BR>when a the maser is used (in low power mode) as a radar. And then<BR>there's all that arcing that was mentioned.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:58:36 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; In-Reply-To: &lt;F360bPur9gSRp9tgEaQ00015f5a@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Greetings dear hearts, especially Mr Whipsnade.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Here's an excerpt from the scenario I am in the middle of, detailing the <BR>&gt; duelling ethic on the planet Lehar: -<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; "On Lehar, matters of honour are often settled by duelling. Duels are <BR>&gt; formal and stylised, but none the less deadly. Foils are used, with a long <BR>&gt; dagger in the 'off' hand, and the combatants strip to light fencing shorts <BR>&gt; to prevent the use of hidden armour. Duels may be fought to the first <BR>&gt; blood or to the death.<BR><BR>Ok, reality check time. <BR><BR>Foils are *only* used in sport fencing, and started out as a practice<BR>weapon for epee training. They are *totally* unsuitable for duel of the<BR>sort described, especially when "long daggers" are being used in the<BR>off hand. Foils are just too easy to *break* if blocked by that dagger.<BR><BR>At least the above is what my friends who fence told me.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3710<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xd05.mx.aol.com (rly-xd05.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.170]) by air-xd03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:18:52 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xd05.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:18:27 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id GAA85269;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:17:41 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:17:09 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id GAA85071<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:17:09 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:17:09 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102201117.GAA85071@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3710<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3711</B></TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 20 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3711<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: Re : Indefinite life span<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR>RE: Source Code request?<BR>RE: En Garde<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>[none]<BR>Re: giving too much credit<BR>Re: giving too much credit<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Source Code request?<BR>Re: A Lucky Find?<BR>Re: Interesting spots to visit<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>RE: OT RL Info on Internet copyright<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:07:48 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Wouldn't BD or even a vacc-suit give some protection against this?<BR><BR>Ever see what happens when you put metal in a microwave? At *far* lower<BR>power densitys, you get these lovely arcs.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:11:00 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Waaaait just a minute: We ALL know that Hotblack's Band, Disaster Area, is<BR>&gt; the one whose audiovisual system violate many planets' strategic arms<BR>&gt; limitations treaties. All others are merely pretenders. This from Douglas<BR>&gt; Adams' Restaurant at the End of the Universe.<BR><BR>Evil thought of the week.<BR><BR>There's a gizmo that's been kicking around as a lab prototype for<BR>around 20 years now. By using MHD effects, it's possible to make a<BR>flame act as a speaker. <BR><BR>I'd previously suggested using rocket engines as the source of the<BR>"flame". But it occurs to me that a bad like Disaster area might be<BR>using ship-mounted plasma weapons, or maybe HEPlaR drives as speakers. <BR><BR>Picture a band that doesn't use speaker towers, instead, they have<BR>these "things" the size of a small ship, that have to be sited on<BR>reinforced concrete pads and produce sound from jets of blinding flame<BR>half a kilometer long. At power levels that require a 1 km safety zone<BR>around them. <BR><BR>They don't "set up" the sound system, they *land* them. :-)<BR><BR>- -------------------<BR>Notice to Spacefarers&nbsp;&nbsp; 1105-075<BR><BR>Antares Down will be closed to traffic from 18:00 to 25:00 local time<BR>on 1105-100 due to a concert by Near-C. Antares STC will broadcast<BR>notices of exclusion zones for the bands sound checks during the week<BR>preceeding this date.<BR>- -------------------<BR><BR>Hey, where else are they going to find enough open space with<BR>facilities "hardened" against that sort of noise levels?<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:06:27 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Tim Little wrote :-<BR>&gt;&gt; Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; IIRc it only takes a few degrees of 'instant' temperature rise to<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; coagulate quite a few of the protiens found in a person.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; 400 kW/m^2 probably translates to about 1 kW/kg in a person.&nbsp; That's<BR>&gt;&gt; enough to raise their average temperature by about 1 K per 4 seconds.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Unconscious within 16 seconds (core to 41 C), fitting shortly thereafter.<BR>&gt; The highest core temperature that anyone has survived intact is 46.5 C (heat<BR>&gt; stroke). He was hospitalised for 3 weeks.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Skin will die above 48 C. Proteins irreversibly denature above 55 C.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The primary cause of death will be either burns and subsequent sepsis or<BR>&gt; multi-organ failure (liver, brain, and kidney).<BR><BR>Lovely. Exactly the sort of injuries weapons designers *love*, because<BR>they are hard to treat in the field, and tie up lots of enemy resources.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:22:23 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Indefinite life span<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Paul Drye wrote :-<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; The key point is that accidents are essentially random, so a large<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; enough group has a "half-life".<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;I thought that life expectancy was just that - the age at which 50% of a <BR>&gt;&gt;given cohort are still alive.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I put it into quotes in an attempt to imply radioactive half-life, which has <BR>&gt; some peculiar features if you replace the atoms with people who act the same <BR>&gt; way.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; My point was, in the West now life expectancy is a pretty useful figure. <BR>&gt; Call it eighty years, just to round it off. A very large fraction of the <BR>&gt; population will die between the ages of 60 and 90, so working on the <BR>&gt; assumption that one will live for eighty years is not a bad guess.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; But on the other hand, if aging is stopped completely, death would be <BR>&gt; largely random -- accidents and contagious disease (this admittedly neglects <BR>&gt; stuff like heart disease, but then the argument transforms into "what is <BR>&gt; aging" and I'm not touching that with a 3.048 meter pole. Leave it out for <BR>&gt; simplicity's sake). If death is random, you can't make a good guess at how <BR>&gt; long you'd live.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Suppose the half-life were 804 years, as your rough calculation suggests. <BR>&gt; Approximately ten percent of the population would still be alive at the 2500 <BR>&gt; year mark. This difference in the degree of deviation from the life <BR>&gt; expectancy was what I was getting at -- no-one today, let alone ten percent <BR>&gt; of us, lives for three times our canonical three-score-and-ten, <BR>&gt; yogurt-gulping Azeris notwithstanding.<BR><BR>Yep, rather than an oddly distorted bell curve, you get an exponential<BR>decay curve. The "peak" is at birth, and there's a declining slope from<BR>there.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:48:25 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . . . <BR>&gt; thank you.<BR><BR>We've (mostly) forgiven you, Loren :-)<BR><BR>&gt; Reminds me of the time some critic at the hotel bar at one of the<BR>&gt; east coast Origins was sounding off on what a lousy book _Red Storm<BR>&gt; Rising_ was, and how the scenario was totally implausible. I was<BR>&gt; sitting at the next table, with Frank Chadwick and a couple of<BR>&gt; friends of GDW, including one Tom Clancy (this was in the days he<BR>&gt; still could attend gaming cons and not be recognized). We were all<BR>&gt; waiting for the critic to say "What idiot came up with that one?" but<BR>&gt; he never did -- spolied a perfect anecdote in the making . . .<BR><BR>I guess you've never heard Isaac Asomov's story about the time he was<BR>in a class (or possibly a seinar of some sort) where some litcrit type<BR>(or possibly literature professor) was going on about one of Asimov's<BR>books. Isaac put forth an opinion contrary to the prof's regarding the<BR>author's intent with regards to some plot element. This lead to an<BR>exchange alone the following lines:<BR><BR>&nbsp; Prof: "And on what do you base *that* conclusion?"<BR>Asimov: "I wrote the book!"<BR>&nbsp; Prof: "So? That doesn't mean you know why you did it!"<BR><BR>When dealing with critics or lit types, you *can't* win.<BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:20:37 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Source Code request?<BR><BR>Thing wrote:<BR>&gt; Does anyone out there have, or know the location of, any good<BR>&gt; routines/algorythms for drawing linked/adjacent hexagons like<BR>&gt; for a subsector map, that they would be willing to share with<BR>&gt; me.&nbsp; I can't find the source for an old project I did this in<BR>&gt; and would rather not re-invent it if nescessary.<BR><BR>I have a VB4(Professional) routine that displays a subsector in a<BR>picturebox as part of an ongoing project.&nbsp; If this is of any&nbsp; use<BR>to you I can send it to you tonight when I get home&nbsp; (its&nbsp; on&nbsp; my<BR>home PC, not my work PC).&nbsp; Just let me know&nbsp; within&nbsp; the&nbsp; next&nbsp; 6<BR>hours or you'll have to wait another day.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:24:57 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: En Garde<BR><BR>Loren wrote:<BR>&gt; Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to<BR>&gt; allow for female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever<BR>&gt; Amber_ and _Desiree_. Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing<BR>&gt; the king even moreso, but both had their rewards.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; There was even allowance for enlisting in the army disguised as a<BR>&gt; man, although this involved certain risks also.<BR><BR>Where can I find this, what's the URL?<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:38:00 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 0:07, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Wouldn't BD or even a vacc-suit give some protection against this?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ever see what happens when you put metal in a microwave? At *far* lower<BR>&gt; power densitys, you get these lovely arcs.<BR><BR>And the objects get thrown around. A friend of mine left a spoon in his coffee <BR>when he nuked it, and it was thrown half-way through the microwave's door.<BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 04:00:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>Aboard IKE we had an Inport Emergency Team (IET) and Rescue &amp;<BR>Assistance Detail (R&amp;A) while inport.&nbsp; At sea, we had the repair<BR>lockers, flight deck fire party and, IIRC (it's been 10 years), a<BR>hangar deck fire party.<BR><BR>Everyone, and I mean everyone, had a repair locker.&nbsp; I reported aboard<BR>as a JOSN and was assigned as an investigator to a gallery deck fire<BR>party.&nbsp; Later, as a JO3 and JO2, I was the pipe-patching team leader<BR>for Repair 1B in hangar bay 2.&nbsp; I qualed for every damage control<BR>position, with the exception of on-scene leader.<BR><BR>Yeah, the HTs and DCs were the repair locker leaders, but the actual<BR>work was being done by personnelmen, postal clerks, yeomen and<BR>journalists (our repair locker was made up of folks from the Admin<BR>department).<BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 <BR>a year!&nbsp; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:00:13 -0000<BR>From: "Jeff Rowse" &lt;jeffrowse@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: [none]<BR><BR>In Digest 3696, Mr. Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&lt;&lt;SNIP&gt;&gt;<BR>Oddly enough, that's exactly what some members of the list were<BR>suspicious of me doing at first;&nbsp; raising the possibility that I was playing<BR>the same "courteous insult" game here too.&nbsp; i would like to assure them<BR>again that I am not.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>&lt;&lt;UNSNIP&gt;&gt;<BR>Uh, I apologise if you thought I was 'getting at you' with my post - I was <BR>just using you as an example (um, is it just me, or does that make it sound <BR>even worse?) of something that has occured to me on several occassions.<BR>The mob I work for is basically an American company, and we Brits seem to <BR>have picked up the "Call everybody by their given name and they won't get <BR>upset with us" syndrome (that is what I call it - YMMV).&nbsp; We haven't yet <BR>started saying "Have A Nice Day" yet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of <BR>time... :-).<BR>Even so, I tend to call the Users I have to speak to as Mr. Jones (or <BR>whatever) the first time I call them, which sometimes causes trouble if the <BR>given name is 'Chris' and it turns out to end with 'ine' instead of <BR>'opher'... :-(, but that's annother story (those 'Help Desk Funnies'-type <BR>stories?&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm willing to betthat about 99% *really are* accurate.&nbsp; Some <BR>Users should not be allowed near keyboards, mice or even pocket <BR>calculators!).<BR>But please feel free to call me almost anything - as long as I can be <BR>uniquely identified (oh I can, I can! - in person at least) then I promise <BR>not to get too upset #8)&nbsp; [my hair's a mess, I wear glasses and I'm <BR>smiling].<BR><BR>Oh, and I got in this morning and found 21 Digest messages...&nbsp; cheers guys <BR>and gals!&nbsp; Just hope I'm not expected t do any real work today...<BR><BR>Jeff.<BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:39:08 +0100<BR>From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: giving too much credit<BR><BR>ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ok, I definitely have NOT made a good first impression here have<BR>&gt; I??<BR><BR>No&nbsp; ;-)<BR><BR>&gt; Is it possible to go out and come back in to try again?? Then<BR>&gt; again, maybe not.<BR>&gt; Tell ya what, I'll just shut up for a while. Ok??<BR><BR>A good move might be to watch how the rest of the list talk to each<BR>other for a few days before joining the discussion... trust me, I know<BR>(commie/atheist flamewar, anyone?).<BR><BR>Sorry if we misunderstood you. Read a day or three of posts, and we will<BR>gladly welcome you among us.<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:52:23 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: giving too much credit<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 13:39, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ok, I definitely have NOT made a good first impression here have<BR>&gt; &gt; I??<BR><BR>[snip]<BR><BR>&gt; Sorry if we misunderstood you. Read a day or three of posts, and we will<BR>&gt; gladly welcome you among us.<BR><BR>It seems my initial reaction was hasty. I'll apologise for that (and disable <BR>the filter, never like them anyway).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:24:35 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt;Don't you know the only historically vallid government<BR>&gt;for the Imperium is the scientific planned political economy.<BR><BR>Splitter!<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:45:03 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>bloo wrote:<BR>&gt; All this take of legal systems and constitutions<BR>&gt; leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want<BR>&gt; to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.<BR>&gt; With a goal to create a Federal Republic type<BR>&gt; system.&nbsp; Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!<BR>&gt; There are ways to do it without following the<BR>&gt; American model.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I can dream can't I.&nbsp;&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>Ohh, yuck!<BR><BR>1) Democracies&nbsp;&nbsp; require&nbsp;&nbsp; timely&nbsp;&nbsp; communication&nbsp;&nbsp; between&nbsp;&nbsp; the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; electorate and the elected.&nbsp; For low tech worlds&nbsp; this&nbsp; limits<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; the effective size of countries.&nbsp; For the&nbsp; Imperium&nbsp; it&nbsp; would<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; limit&nbsp; the&nbsp; size&nbsp; of&nbsp; effective&nbsp; government&nbsp; to&nbsp; roughly&nbsp;&nbsp; the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; subsector scale.<BR><BR>2) Democracies work by having the elected pander to the&nbsp; fleeting<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; whims of the masses.&nbsp; Restrictions need&nbsp; to&nbsp; be&nbsp; in&nbsp; place&nbsp; to<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; protect&nbsp; minorities.&nbsp; Also,&nbsp; as&nbsp;&nbsp; a&nbsp;&nbsp; society&nbsp;&nbsp; becomes&nbsp;&nbsp; more<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; technical, knowledge becomes&nbsp; more&nbsp; specialised&nbsp; ...&nbsp; and&nbsp; the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; subset of people who have a sound grasp of the issues&nbsp; of&nbsp; the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; day shrinks.&nbsp; Thus the effectiveness of democracy declines&nbsp; as<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; tech level increases.<BR><BR>Therefore for a TL15 political entity the size of&nbsp; the&nbsp; 3I&nbsp; would<BR>have&nbsp; no&nbsp; choice&nbsp; but&nbsp; to&nbsp; abandon&nbsp;&nbsp; democratic&nbsp;&nbsp; principles&nbsp;&nbsp; as<BR>unworkable, and&nbsp; replace&nbsp; it&nbsp; with&nbsp; a&nbsp; variation&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; feudal<BR>technocracy.&nbsp; Of&nbsp; course,&nbsp; some&nbsp; local&nbsp; planetary&nbsp; and&nbsp; subsector<BR>governments could be based along democratic lines&nbsp; if&nbsp; enough&nbsp; of<BR>the locals were afflicted with&nbsp; that&nbsp; particular&nbsp; fetish,&nbsp; but&nbsp; I<BR>wouldn't recommend it.<BR><BR>What people want from their government is provision of safety and<BR>prosparity, leaders who can deal effectively with the&nbsp; issues&nbsp; of<BR>the day, and controls on abuse of&nbsp; power.&nbsp; Democracy&nbsp; is&nbsp; just&nbsp; a<BR>distraction.<BR><BR>That's not to say the 3I doesn't have problems.&nbsp; The autonomy&nbsp; of<BR>planetary governments virtually gaurentees&nbsp; that&nbsp; there&nbsp; will&nbsp; be<BR>numerous cases&nbsp; of&nbsp; failure&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; *planetary*&nbsp; government&nbsp; to<BR>provide for its citizens (and that includes democratic&nbsp; planetary<BR>governments).<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:58:34 -0700<BR>From: "J. Paul Sanders" &lt;jps64@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>At 01:24 AM 2/20/2001 -0500, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;From: Kurt Feltenberger &lt;kurt@blazenet.net&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;original message&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????"<BR>&gt;&lt;Kurt's response&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has a troll.<BR>&gt;Please!??!"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Larsen<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sorry guy. I'm not Cliff.<BR><BR><BR>You've got that right. Cliff at least had a few redeeming qualities where <BR>apparently you have none.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:12:18 +1000<BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt; From: "DaveShayne" <BR>&gt; Don't you know the only historically vallid government<BR>&gt; for the Imperium is the scientific planned political economy.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; It is time, tovariches, to proclaim the truth of the interstellar<BR>&gt; proletariat revolution! Long live the United Soviet Socialist Planets!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; All power to the Soviets! Down with Tsarist Imperialism!<BR><BR>The Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar (Solidariti) welcomes the<BR>emergence of new forces in the revolutionary struggle against the<BR>megacorporations' Imperium.<BR><BR>Alan Bradley<BR>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:01:27 +1000<BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt; From: Stephen Tempest<BR>&gt; Historical trivia time:&nbsp; the participants in the *actual* Russian<BR>&gt; Revolution sang the "Internationale" (which was the USSR's national<BR>&gt; anthem until WW2) and even "La Marseillaise".&nbsp; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The song you're thinking of was, IIRC, supposedly "written" by Stalin<BR>&gt; in 1943 or so (in fact, he got a couple of composers to write songs,<BR>&gt; then took part of the tune from each of them).<BR><BR>Correct.&nbsp; <BR><BR>By some accounts, the new anthem reflected a political change from an<BR>internationalist to a Russian nationalist perspective.<BR><BR>The Comintern (Communist International) was disbanded during WW2 as a<BR>favour to the Allied powers, and the Soviet government used a lot of<BR>nationalist stuff to rally people behind the war effort.&nbsp; The anthem change<BR>was part of all this.<BR><BR>&gt; ObTrav: do revolutionary movements such as the Ine Givar also plunder<BR>&gt; the iconography of other, older revolutions?<BR><BR>You betcha.&nbsp; Unfortunately not all of it would be Solomani, or even human. <BR>Or maybe that's not unfortunate:&nbsp; it means that you can use nearly anything<BR>you want.<BR><BR>Alan Bradley<BR>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:01:25 -0500<BR>From: Ethan Henry &lt;ethan.henry@sitraka.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Source Code request?<BR><BR>I dunno who asked originally, but...<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Does anyone out there have, or know the location of, any good routines/<BR>&gt; &gt; algorythms for drawing linked/adjacent hexagons like for a subsector map,<BR>&gt; &gt; that they would be willing to share with me.<BR><BR>http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry/traveller/SubSectorCanvas.java<BR><BR>draws a subsector hex map.<BR><BR>http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry/traveller/SectorCanvas.java<BR><BR>draws a dot-map-esque sector map. See it run at:<BR><BR>http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry/traveller/spinward.html<BR><BR>Use it as you like, but maybe give me credit if you get rich off it<BR>or something. :) I wrote it to learn Java nigh-on 6 years ago...<BR><BR>Ethan<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:10:18<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?<BR><BR>At 01:51 AM 2/20/2001 EST, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; uuuummmmm........could someone explain to me what an ancient Cthulhu <BR>&gt;religion has to do with Traveller??&nbsp;&nbsp; Isn't that more specific to D&amp;D??&nbsp; I <BR>&gt;know I'm new to the list so could someone explain it to me?? Please??<BR><BR>Why would Cthulthu be specific to DnD?&nbsp; _Call of Cthulthu_ is a fine game<BR>on its own.<BR><BR>Anyway... <BR><BR>Cthulthu:&nbsp; Bat-winged immortal that possesses a monsterous intellect, and<BR>lies sleeping, but will someday arise.<BR><BR>Yaskodray, aka Grandfather: Bat-winged, immortal Droyne that possesses a<BR>monsterous intellect, and hides in his pocket universe, and may someday<BR>return.<BR><BR>There was also a race that closely resembled the Hivers...<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR><BR>TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:23:33<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Interesting spots to visit<BR><BR>At 03:21 AM 2/20/2001 EST, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A longer, detailed explanation of my smartmouthed comment: I'm a blue <BR>&gt;collar worker who lives in the so-called "projects" and drives a beater back <BR>&gt;and forth to work to pay the bills. I can't afford a ticket overseas let <BR>&gt;alone to the next state. i play Traveller as a game of adventure,not as a<BR>&gt;way of exchanging detailed information except where necessary. <BR><BR>Good for you.&nbsp; My wife and I are both Teamsters, and work for an airport<BR>shuttle company.&nbsp; She drives, I dispatch.&nbsp; Our secondhand car has well over<BR>100,000 miles on it, and the last time I actually went somewhere on<BR>vacation was 1989.<BR><BR>So, if we are finished playing the blues, let me tell you that I don't<BR>really give a rats ass what you play Traveller for.&nbsp; On this list, people<BR>are free to discuss whatever aspects of Traveller they want, and can get<BR>into some very esoteric and detailed exchanges.<BR><BR>We have a wealth of knowledge here, and willingly share it.&nbsp; I don't know<BR>if you noticed, but much of the discussion of courts was being carried out<BR>by lawyers.&nbsp; People Who Know More Than You.&nbsp; That information might be<BR>useful to me someday.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Ok, so I'm not a high-tech freak, does that make me the "troll" of the <BR>&gt;TML?? I have straight forward opinions about things and i tend to forget I'm <BR>&gt;not as smart as most people. Yes, i'm big enough to admit that. I shall <BR>&gt;attempt to refrain from further smart-mouthed comments in the future. As for <BR>&gt;the comment I made earlier. Let it stand. <BR><BR>You just can't stop insulting people, can you?&nbsp; All we've seen from you are<BR>insults and rude comments.&nbsp; You seem to see this list as something that we<BR>do for *you.*&nbsp; We don't, each of us does it for ourselves.&nbsp; <BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; BTW, yes I type with two fingers. LOL.<BR><BR>I wrote GT: Ground Forces that way.&nbsp; Stop making excuses.<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp;&nbsp; Templar Agent at Large.<BR>gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR><BR>Author of GT: Ground Forces&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:37:39<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>At 01:40 AM 2/20/2001 EST, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Ok, let me try to explain my point of view, if I may. Fine, you people <BR>&gt;want to explain all the intricacies (did I spell that right?) of courts and <BR>&gt;titles and all. That's fine. But what would happen to a player who just <BR>&gt;wanted to know the correct way of addressing someone if he wasn't interested <BR>&gt;in all the details. It's simple, he would fall asleep during the long, drawn <BR>&gt;out, boring letters that you wrote. Not to mention it would take something <BR>&gt;away from the game. <BR><BR>More insults.&nbsp; Listen, if you are running a game by reading TML posts, you<BR>are really in need of help.<BR><BR>What's the title?&nbsp; Grand High Lord of Cabbage.&nbsp; There, happy now?<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; What if the players don't actually know how to address the local nobles?? <BR>&gt;What if the local nobles do things slightly different than the courts <BR>&gt;norms??That in itself could lead to a mini adventure within the gane when<BR>&gt;the local noble brings charges against a player for some minor but local <BR>&gt;insult. <BR><BR>Then you *make it up*.&nbsp; Or do a little research into actual societies.&nbsp; Or<BR>ask us.<BR><BR>But be warned, we are a verbose lot, and are not her to act as Delphic<BR>Oracles.&nbsp; We like to discuss things, and examine how they would actually<BR>work in the universe of Traveller.&nbsp; Hence, the rather intricate discussion<BR>of court systems.<BR><BR>Don't like it?&nbsp; Skip the damn messages.<BR><BR>&gt;Then I have to explain all those court preceedings to my players?? And they <BR>&gt;fall asleep.<BR><BR>Remember Campbell's rule.&nbsp; You never see a scene in a detective novel where<BR>the hero stops and explains the science behind the .38 pistol he's holding.<BR>Unless you absolutely need to, keep that as background material.<BR><BR>Now, if it important to know how the court operates, there are ways of<BR>introducing it.&nbsp; Do a quick write-up hitting the high points, have a NPC<BR>explain the important facts, or, the most amusing, have them learn the hard<BR>way!<BR><BR>"What do you mean we're under arrest!&nbsp; All I did was complement the chef!"<BR><BR>"Silence, we do not speak of such things in the presence of nobility!<BR>Their food is given by the Gods!"<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; t's not that I don't like all the extra detail that ya'll write about. I <BR>&gt;just don't necessarily need it in a game and neither does a player. It tends <BR>&gt;to bog the game down and as we all know, when that happens players get<BR>&gt;bored.<BR><BR>One more time:&nbsp; It isn't about you.&nbsp; It is not a question and answer<BR>session.&nbsp; It's is a number of traveller fans trading ideas.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Why not just keep it simple?? Don't tell me how to address the local <BR>&gt;noble at all times. Just tell me how to address him/her at THIS time. Then, <BR>&gt;keep the game going. Don't explain all the court politics to me, just tell<BR>&gt;me whats going on real quick and what I can as a player, dop about it. <BR>&gt;Simple.<BR><BR>Sure, my going rate for those answers are $30, and I take Visa.<BR><BR>Mining ideas that I come up with on my own time, by answering other's<BR>posts, are free.<BR><BR>- --<BR><BR>Duugirashir Irebamenagiin&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>&nbsp; http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:05:34 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: OT RL Info on Internet copyright<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Steve Daniels<BR>&gt; Sent: 19 February 2001 06:00<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; There is, since about a year or something, a *very* stupid law in<BR>&gt; &gt; Sweden...<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Basically, it is illegal to have any kind of personal<BR>&gt; &gt; information about other people on a website without<BR>&gt; &gt; those persons' express permission.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; That's not copyright law.&nbsp; It's privacy law.&nbsp; And a lot of<BR>&gt; other countries have such laws.<BR>&gt;<BR>More correctly, _every_ EU country has that sort of privacy law (and<BR>most of those we deal with do too). Even the US abides by it, within<BR>the Safe Harbours agreement.<BR><BR>As to copyright - it really depends on where you are. Outside the US,<BR>a website is considered a "medium" within the context of international<BR>copyright law. In the US, it varies - but since much of the rest of<BR>the world ignores US copyright anyway, who cares?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3711<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3712</B></TD></TR>
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<TD>2/20/01 10:21:28 AM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 20 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3712<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR>Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR>fencing<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Imperial Law<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: GURPS FAR TRADER question<BR>Re: <BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: GURPS FAR TRADER question<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: Source Code request?<BR>Copyright Laws<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts<BR>Re: TGOOs<BR>Re: TGOOs<BR>Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:58:18 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Chris Seamans" &lt;semo@pil.net&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "All of a sudden, somebody comes stomping in. He turns to one of your <BR>friends and says, "Will you shut the hell up, you're boring me!". Then he <BR>turns to another and says, "What you're talking about has no value!" and so <BR>on. Think about how much respect you'd show that jackass.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; In this case, you are that jackass."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Shagyy3D,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I must agree rather strongly with Mr. Seamans on this.&nbsp; Hence my snip <BR>above of his post attempting to explain your less than warm greeting here on <BR>the TML.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Your behavior has been extremely odd and almost "trollish" in nature.&nbsp; <BR>While I haven't assigned your address to my kill file yet, I find myself <BR>very close to doing so.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; This morning I checked my TML mail file and found 89 messages had <BR>arrived in a little under 12 hours.&nbsp; Thinking some threads had started, I <BR>eagerly opened the file and began reading.&nbsp; Close to half the messages were <BR>from you, unfortunately.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Your posts had nothing to do with the threads they were linked to.&nbsp; <BR>Your posts were little more than the one or two flip responses they had been <BR>earlier.&nbsp; Your posts did contain a few apologies for past behavior, but I <BR>didn't see any improvement in that behavior in the non-apologetic posts that <BR>followed.&nbsp; You posts added nothing to the thread being discussed.&nbsp; All your <BR>posts were contentless drivel that wasted my time to open, read, and delete <BR>them.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; In fact the only thread you have a hand in here so far is the one <BR>dealing with either your involuntary unsubscription or about how to assign <BR>you to a kill file.&nbsp; If you take the time to muse on those points, you might <BR>be able to discern how your actions have made you look to a great many, very <BR>tolerant people.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Please know that I am not some self-appointed contents censor or Great <BR>Old One.&nbsp; In fact I am a newbie like yourself.&nbsp; I began posting after <BR>lurking for 2+ months and still my posts are marked with my bumbling, <BR>sometimes foolish, eagerness.&nbsp; Despite my many mistakes, the TML has been <BR>nothing if not kind and understanding because I actually had something to <BR>ask or say.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As loathe as I am to placing you in a kill file, if I find another 35+ <BR>post flood in a 12 hour span from you, with each post as empty as the last, <BR>you are going there.&nbsp; I simply don't have the time to deal with the TML <BR>equivalent of spam.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sincerely,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:06:13 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR>&nbsp; Just to play devils Advocate here...<BR><BR>&nbsp; As I picture the governmental structure of the Imperium, I see what looks<BR>like a multi-tiered structure.&nbsp; The overall large scale picture requires<BR>one group of policy makers to oversee the direction of government.&nbsp; Each<BR>subsequent layer requires that that level of government takes care of<BR>increasingly specialized situations until you reach the lowest tier of<BR>government, that has direct contact with the people itself.<BR>&nbsp; That being the case - what difference does *type* of government make as<BR>far as what each tier is doing?<BR><BR>For example:<BR>&nbsp; It is understood that the Grand Senate has a membership of senators whose<BR>term encompasses 10 years.&nbsp; The Grand Senator is not elected directly by<BR>the masses so much as he is elected by the planetary senate - a sort of<BR>sectorwide assembly.&nbsp; The sector wide assembly is directly elected by the<BR>planetary governments themselves.&nbsp; How the planetary governments are<BR>elected is up to the planet itself.<BR><BR>What the Grand Senate regulates is the tax collection for purposes of<BR>defense, along with R&amp;D developments for faster communications etc.&nbsp; The<BR>Overall government is involved in maintaining status quo amongst the member<BR>nations along with handling the day to day friction as events unfold.&nbsp; Does<BR>the Grand Senate deal directly?&nbsp; Not on your life.&nbsp; They create the bodies<BR>that deal directly with the situations as they occur.&nbsp; They set the policy<BR>by which these created agencies follow.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Ultimately, whether it is a Democracy, Dictatorship, Autocracy, or<BR>Planned society type of government, the bueacracy required to run such a<BR>LARGE government is, in my opinion, the only thing that determines how well<BR>a government runs.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>PS - in theory, the communistic government was supposed to be a great<BR>thing.&nbsp; Too bad it didn't take into account human nature &lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:03:43 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>"Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; 1) Democracies&nbsp;&nbsp; require&nbsp;&nbsp; timely&nbsp;&nbsp; communication&nbsp;&nbsp; between&nbsp;&nbsp; the<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; electorate and the elected.&nbsp; For low tech worlds&nbsp; this&nbsp; limits<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; the effective size of countries.&nbsp; For the&nbsp; Imperium&nbsp; it&nbsp; would<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; limit&nbsp; the&nbsp; size&nbsp; of&nbsp; effective&nbsp; government&nbsp; to&nbsp; roughly&nbsp;&nbsp; the<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; subsector scale.<BR><BR>But it's a democratic revolution to bring tech to the low tech<BR>worlds!<BR><BR>And they only require communication if they want to *accurately*<BR>represent their citizens.<BR><BR>&gt; 2) Democracies work by having the elected pander to the&nbsp; fleeting<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; whims of the masses.<BR><BR>Thank you, Mr. Stalin.<BR><BR>&gt; Restrictions need&nbsp; to&nbsp; be&nbsp; in&nbsp; place&nbsp; to&nbsp; protect&nbsp; minorities.<BR><BR>Only if the majority wants to protect them.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; Also,&nbsp; as&nbsp;&nbsp; a&nbsp;&nbsp; society&nbsp;&nbsp; becomes&nbsp;&nbsp; more<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; technical, knowledge becomes&nbsp; more&nbsp; specialised&nbsp; ...&nbsp; and&nbsp; the<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; subset of people who have a sound grasp of the issues&nbsp; of&nbsp; the<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; day shrinks.&nbsp; Thus the effectiveness of democracy declines&nbsp; as<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; tech level increases.<BR><BR>I call B.S. on that.&nbsp; I think you're letting your views of the real<BR>world<BR>taint your imagination.<BR><BR>&gt; Therefore for a TL15 political entity the size of&nbsp; the&nbsp; 3I&nbsp; would<BR>&gt; have&nbsp; no&nbsp; choice&nbsp; but&nbsp; to&nbsp; abandon&nbsp;&nbsp; democratic&nbsp;&nbsp; principles&nbsp;&nbsp; as<BR>&gt; unworkable, and&nbsp; replace&nbsp; it&nbsp; with&nbsp; a&nbsp; variation&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; feudal<BR>&gt; technocracy.<BR><BR>Who says it has to be the size of the 3I?&nbsp; Who says the democratic<BR>mechanisms need to be similar to real world ones?<BR><BR>Member worlds could select Senators based on whatever criteria<BR>or government type they want. The length of term of a Senator in<BR>the Imperial Senate might be 10, 20 or even 30 years. A President<BR>could be elected by the Senate every 10 or so years.<BR>You might have a democratic constitutional monarchy like the UK<BR>model with a Parliament and a House of Lords (which might be<BR>a nice solution to a democratic movement that could appease<BR>current nobility by preserving something of their power and standing).<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Of&nbsp; course,&nbsp; some&nbsp; local&nbsp; planetary&nbsp; and&nbsp; subsector<BR>&gt; governments could be based along democratic lines&nbsp; if&nbsp; enough&nbsp; of<BR>&gt; the locals were afflicted with&nbsp; that&nbsp; particular&nbsp; fetish,&nbsp; but&nbsp; I<BR>&gt; wouldn't recommend it.<BR><BR>Democracy as fetish.&nbsp; You *are* Stalin, aren't you?&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR><BR>&gt; What people want from their government is provision of safety and<BR>&gt; prosparity, leaders who can deal effectively with the&nbsp; issues&nbsp; of<BR>&gt; the day, and controls on abuse of&nbsp; power.&nbsp; Democracy&nbsp; is&nbsp; just&nbsp; a<BR>&gt; distraction.<BR><BR>So that's what I want!&nbsp; Thanks for reminding me.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:05:19 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: Eamon Patrick Watters &lt;E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR><BR>GDWGAMES@aol.com sent:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; I'm with you, partner.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; Who spiked the water cooler<BR>&gt;&gt; when they came up with that one!??!<BR>&gt;&gt; Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.<BR><BR>Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . .<BR>. <BR>thank you.<BR><BR>And for that alone you have my eternal thanks!<BR><BR>Eamon Watters, TNE Acolyte.<BR><BR>'More Tea Penguin?' - Wallace and Grommit, 'The Wrong Trousers'.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:11:01 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR><BR>Hello Jeff,<BR>&nbsp; Based on what I've read about what happens when you get a really HUGE<BR>volcanic erruption - the planet enters into a mini-ice age.&nbsp; What happens<BR>is that the particles suspended in the atmosphere raise the albedo of the<BR>planet such that some of the light is reflected back out.&nbsp; As for more rain<BR>and the like?&nbsp; I am guessing that is entirely at the whim of how much water<BR>vapor is found in the air at that point in time.&nbsp; The warmer a body of air<BR>is, the more water vapor it can sustain.&nbsp; The colder a body of air is, the<BR>less moisture it can contain.&nbsp; As a guess?&nbsp; I suspect what would happen is<BR>that the temperature of said world would get slightly colder than normal,<BR>and that the atmosphere will require a bit of time before it "precipitates"<BR>out the contaminants.&nbsp; How long would this process take?&nbsp; I don't know,<BR>perhaps someone else can answer that &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; Again, this is based on what<BR>I've read as relates to earth...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:12:39 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: fencing<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; "On Lehar, matters of honour are often settled by duelling. Duels are<BR>&gt; &gt; formal and stylised, but none the less deadly. Foils are used, with a long<BR>&gt; &gt; dagger in the 'off' hand, and the combatants strip to light fencing shorts<BR>&gt; &gt; to prevent the use of hidden armour. Duels may be fought to the first<BR>&gt; &gt; blood or to the death.<BR>&gt;Ok, reality check time.<BR>&gt;Foils are *only* used in sport fencing, and started out as a practice<BR>&gt;weapon for epee training. They are *totally* unsuitable for duel of the<BR>&gt;sort described, especially when "long daggers" are being used in the<BR>&gt;off hand. Foils are just too easy to *break* if blocked by that dagger.<BR>&gt;At least the above is what my friends who fence told me.<BR><BR>Yup, foils are "training weapons".<BR>Ok if the duel is real friendly, i.e. first touch instead of first blood.<BR><BR>If you actually want to cause damage, use an epee'or light rapier.<BR>Heavier weapons would result in a serious change in style, which I don't <BR>think the author is striving for.<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Opinions should be yours too! - http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>"What's a FAQ? Boy, I wish someone would put a list of answers<BR>for common questions such as this..."<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:34:46 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "But Virus was sooo Kewl. And with it came FF&amp;S."<BR><BR>Mr. Boleyn,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Alas too true!&nbsp; As a gearhead wannbe I should be greatfull.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Even worse, my chuckleheaded attempt to kickstart another thread <BR>indirectly insulted Mr. Wiseman.&nbsp; The list seemed to be stuck in "My days in <BR>the Navy" mode (with my help I should add), so I decided to "goose" along <BR>the first new thread that appeared.&nbsp; The thread has taken off and would have <BR>without my help, but...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I have bit the hand that fed me Traveller!!!!!!!!<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; My most humble and abject apologies, Mr. Wiseman.&nbsp; My personal feelings <BR>towards Virus do not extend to it's mileau or the materials set there.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Mea Culpa,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:38:54 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Law<BR><BR>Steve Daniels writes:<BR>&gt;Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;I should like to know what source material you base these claims on.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;None.&nbsp; The absence of any material suggesting stare decisis is practiced<BR>&gt;leads me to the conclusion that it isn't.<BR><BR>The absence of any material leads me to believe that the subject has not been<BR>covered yet and can therefore be resolved either way.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Land is likely to be one of the things an Imperial noble would have a really<BR>&gt;&gt;tough time usurping. Unless it belongs to the Imperium already, all land<BR>&gt;&gt;belongs to someone who is a citizen of a world government. As such, whatever<BR>&gt;&gt;treaty (or whatever such a document is called) made when the world joined the<BR>&gt;&gt;Imperium would spell out the rights surrendered by the world to the Imperium.<BR>&gt;&gt;If this included any land, said land would be defined to the inch.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Probably.&nbsp; But then to which court do you appeal alleged incursions?<BR>&gt;The Moot?<BR><BR>Either the noble's liege lord or one of those Imperial courts mentioned<BR>somewhere (I _think_ it's in one of the _Library Data_ books). Ultimately the<BR>Emperor. That may or may not help, depending on the personality of the liege<BR>lord, but the fact that corruption may occur doesn't mean that their is no law;<BR>it just means that the law may some time be broken.<BR><BR>If the imperial noble is sufficiently low -- Baron, Marquis, possibly Count --<BR>and the world is sufficiently powerful, the landowner's world government will<BR>be able to interfere too. After all, some duke will hesitate before violating<BR>the rights of a citizen of a member state that controls forces stronger than his<BR>own, and some high-population worlds have budgets equivalent to that of half a<BR>dozen Imperial fleets.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;In canon, there is very little evidence of any significant legal framework,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;and particularly little that might resemble modern democratic systems.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;The Duchy of Regina has a senate. It's powers are not defined and it may<BR>&gt;&gt;simply be advisory, but then again, it may not. Certainly someone in the<BR>&gt;&gt;subsector bureaucracy found it worth while to kidnap a senator and hide him<BR>&gt;&gt;away.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;That isn't an imperial legal framework.&nbsp; Perhaps the senator was wealthy?<BR><BR>Subsector governments are just as much Imperial as sector, domain and Imperium<BR>governments. In fact, they are the basic unit of Imperial administration [*].<BR>Certainly I see no reason why the Emperor shouldn't tolerate constitutional<BR>duchies. As long as it gets the job done.<BR><BR><BR>[*] I would like to promote the notion that "Imperial law" often refers to<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; subsector law rather than Imperium-wide law (It allows for a lot more<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; latitude to individualize subsectors).<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:39:50 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Lovely. Exactly the sort of injuries weapons designers *love*, because <BR>they are hard to treat in the field, and tie up lots of enemy resources."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Erickson,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; On a related subject, can't low powered lasers currently be used to <BR>blind?&nbsp; I got this nagging memory of attempts to blind pilots with them.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Just another figment of my little grey cells or is there a kernal of <BR>truth in it?<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:09:03 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; There is, since about a year or something, a *very* stupid law in<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Sweden...<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Basically, it is illegal to have any kind of personal<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; information about other people on a website without<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; those persons' express permission.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; That's not copyright law.&nbsp; It's privacy law.&nbsp; And a lot of<BR>&gt;&gt; other countries have such laws.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; More correctly, _every_ EU country has that sort of privacy law (and<BR>&gt; most of those we deal with do too). Even the US abides by it, within<BR>&gt; the Safe Harbours agreement.<BR><BR>Some countries go a bit far with it. For example, Germany(?) had the<BR>law written such that it wasn't legal to have both the user's name and<BR>when they were online available at the same time. Which made Fidonet<BR>echoes (newsgroup equivalent) effectively illegal, as the spec<BR>*requires* the users real name *and* the time the message was entered. <BR><BR>I think the Internet killed that interpretation of the law, but for all<BR>I know it's still on the books. I *do* know that there were changes<BR>made to the way some Fidonet related software worked to accomodate this<BR>requirement (basicly an option to set the time to 00:00:00 while<BR>leaving the date alone).<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:19:03 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Tsk, tsk, tsk.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; bloo, bloo, bloo.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Don't you know the only historically vallid government<BR>&gt; for the Imperium is the scientific planned political economy.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; It is time, tovariches, to proclaim the truth of the interstellar<BR>&gt; proletariat revolution! Long live the United Soviet Socialist Planets!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; All power to the Soviets! Down with Tsarist Imperialism!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; (At this point you must imagine the national anthem of the USSR*<BR>&gt; begining to swell as the party apparatchiks march in lock step on<BR>&gt; the palace.<BR><BR>Ungood. Doubleplus ungood. Crimethink! <BR><BR>Hail Big Brother!<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:47:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: GURPS FAR TRADER question<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR>&gt; Hello Folks,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; A few questions were popping into my head as I examined the rules with an<BR>&gt; eye towards automating them.<BR><BR>Drawing longer routes is harder than one might think.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Am I correct in assuming that every planet has a baseline production value<BR>&gt; of cargoes to be shipped?&nbsp; I get the feeling that once I assign tonnage<BR>&gt; ratings for a star, I should store that value permanently, and then use the<BR>&gt; formulas they give in variable cargo rates, variable cargo tonnage shipped,<BR>&gt; as well as variable passengers...<BR><BR>As written, no.&nbsp; A world with nearby major trade partners will have more total<BR>trade than a world without such partners.&nbsp; There's a reasonable argument for <BR>some sort of shadowing effect (a world with six partners at 1 parsec may<BR>trade less with someone 10 parsecs away than a world with no significant<BR>trade partners within 10 parsecs), but it probably wouldn't be very large.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; What about the tonnage values listed where they give a range of 1-5 tons<BR>&gt; per *week* instead of per day?<BR><BR>It means you have a low-volume route.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Since cargo Terms of Shipping only affect the seller or the Buyer - why<BR>&gt; does this chart have anything to do with ordinary cargo lots being shipped?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; I'm not refering to the speculative cargo, I'm talking about the ordinary<BR>&gt; "freight".<BR><BR>BTN tells you about expected regular cargo lots to be shipped.&nbsp; This has<BR>nothing to do with speculative cargo.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:49:16 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: <BR><BR>From: "Jeff Rowse" &lt;jeffrowse@hotmail.com&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Uh, I apologise if you thought I was 'getting at you' with my post - I <BR>was just using you as an example (um, is it just me, or does that make it <BR>sound even worse?) of something that has occured to me on several <BR>occassions."<BR><BR><BR>Jeff,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; No apology needed, my friend.&nbsp; And Larsen or Bill is just fine with me <BR>too.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As a matter of fact, I used the inflected "Mister" or "Sir" as a way to <BR>vent also.&nbsp; I work as a product engineer who follows behind the salesmen and <BR>must assuage, calm, and placate our customers.&nbsp; Believe me some of these <BR>folks shouldn't be allowed out of the house without a keeper.&nbsp; One of my <BR>favorite flicks has a scene that illustrates this:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Butler: "I believe Mrs. Graham has left for the college, sir."<BR>W. Matthau: "Did you check her for crumbs?"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Butler: "Yes, sir, I took the liberty."<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:51:37 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>&gt;From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "If you actually want to cause damage, use an epee'or light rapier."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Urbin,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Is the long dagger called a "poignard"?&nbsp; I most likely have speeld that <BR>incorrectly.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:56:47 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: GURPS FAR TRADER question<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR>&gt; Hello Folks,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; A few questions were popping into my head as I examined the rules with an<BR>&gt; eye towards automating them.<BR><BR>http://maps.grandsurvey.com/nroute.c<BR>http://maps.grandsurvey.com/blankmap.ps<BR><BR>Sources for my route generator...<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:58:52 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts<BR><BR>Doug Berry writes:<BR>&gt;At 01:40 AM 2/20/2001 EST, you wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;...But what would happen to a player who just wanted to know the correct way<BR>&gt;&gt;of addressing someone if he wasn't interested in all the details. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;What's the title?&nbsp; Grand High Lord of Cabbage.&nbsp; There, happy now?<BR><BR>But he is _addressed_ as "Your Munchiness" and _referred to_ as "His Crispy<BR>Munchiness, the Grand High Lord of Cabbage, Defender of the Health".<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:39:38 -0800<BR>From: Pat Connaughton &lt;patconnaughton@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,<BR>better for close in work.<BR><BR>Pat Connaughton<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 9:12 AM<BR>Subject: fencing<BR><BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; "On Lehar, matters of honour are often settled by duelling. Duels are<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; formal and stylised, but none the less deadly. Foils are used, with a<BR>long<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; dagger in the 'off' hand, and the combatants strip to light fencing<BR>shorts<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; to prevent the use of hidden armour. Duels may be fought to the first<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; blood or to the death.<BR>&gt; &gt;Ok, reality check time.<BR>&gt; &gt;Foils are *only* used in sport fencing, and started out as a practice<BR>&gt; &gt;weapon for epee training. They are *totally* unsuitable for duel of the<BR>&gt; &gt;sort described, especially when "long daggers" are being used in the<BR>&gt; &gt;off hand. Foils are just too easy to *break* if blocked by that dagger.<BR>&gt; &gt;At least the above is what my friends who fence told me.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Yup, foils are "training weapons".<BR>&gt; Ok if the duel is real friendly, i.e. first touch instead of first blood.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; If you actually want to cause damage, use an epee'or light rapier.<BR>&gt; Heavier weapons would result in a serious change in style, which I don't<BR>&gt; think the author is striving for.<BR>&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>- ---<BR>&gt; Opinions should be yours too! - http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>&gt; "What's a FAQ? Boy, I wish someone would put a list of answers<BR>&gt; for common questions such as this..."<BR>&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>- ---<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:01:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Source Code request?<BR><BR>Thing writes:<BR>&gt; Dear Sophonts of the list,<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Does anyone out there have, or know the location of, any good routines/<BR>&gt; algorythms for drawing linked/adjacent hexagons like for a subsector map,<BR>&gt; that they would be willing to share with me.&nbsp; I can't find the source for<BR>&gt; an old project I did this in and would rather not re-invent it if<BR>&gt; nescessary. <BR><BR>For PostScript, http://maps.grandsurvey.com/blankmap.ps includes postscript<BR>routines for drawing sector maps, though I deliberately squash the hexes by<BR>a little bit to fit on an 8.5x11 page better.&nbsp; Changing the ym and xm <BR>functions will resize the map, the drawhexes function draws the map.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:06:10 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Copyright Laws<BR><BR>Gentlemen,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks thread mentioned <BR>copyright laws, specifically the fact that most nations ignore US statutes <BR>in that area.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address this please?&nbsp; What is <BR>wrong about the US take on copyright protections that the rest of the world <BR>simply ignores them?&nbsp; Or is the idea that US copyright law is "incorrect" <BR>just a handy fig leaf to explain away widespread software, video, music, and <BR>any other type of media piracy?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; For example, friends in the software industry refer to Israel as a "one <BR>disc" country.&nbsp; Once your product arrives there, it's immediately pirated <BR>and distributed, so you only sell "one disc".<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Please note, I am not taking sides in the "open source" debate.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks in advance,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:11:50 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts<BR><BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "...But what would happen to a player who just wanted to know the <BR>correct way of addressing someone if he wasn't interested in all the <BR>details."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "What's the title?&nbsp; Grand High Lord of Cabbage.&nbsp; There, happy now?"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "But he is _addressed_ as "Your Munchiness" and _referred to_ as "His <BR>Crispy Munchiness, the Grand High Lord of Cabbage, Defender of the Health"."<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; If the noble in question has Solomani-Asian ancestry, "His Most Spicy <BR>Excellency Kim Chi" could be more appropriate.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; If his ancestors hailed from Terra's North American continent, he would <BR>of course be known as the "Duke of Slaw".<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:12:43 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TGOOs<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; Ok,TOG is Terran Overlord Government,right?? So what's <BR>&gt;&gt;TEG and TGOO???<BR><BR>&gt;TGOO :&nbsp; The Great Old Ones<BR><BR>&gt;It's a Lovecraft reference...<BR><BR>I was using TGOO to mean Traveller Great Old One(s).<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 <BR>a year!&nbsp; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:39:08 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: TGOOs<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; When I subscribed,<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; and I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.<BR><BR>I don't think the list goes back *that* far. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:51:20 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; TML'ers, esp. the hard science folks...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; What effect would very active vulcanism, with all the intendant releases of<BR>&gt; sulfur dioxide, carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide,and most especially a large<BR>&gt; and constant release of fine tephra have on a standard Nitrogen/Oxygen<BR>&gt; atmosphere. I am especially interested in weather conditions. I realize,<BR>&gt; coming from coal country as I do, that acid rain is one factor, but what<BR>&gt; about the amount of precipitation increase due to suspended particulate<BR>&gt; matter? Would there be an increase in atmospheric ionization? What about<BR>&gt; global warming?Increased air instability? I realize that this is a lot, but<BR>&gt; it's for a Landgrab...Any help would be appreciated...&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>Try global *cooling*. A *single* volcanic eruption resulted in "the<BR>year without a summer" back in 1815(?). And comparison of modern<BR>geological dating of eruptions with historical records shows other<BR>occurences.<BR><BR>The basic mechanism is that the eruption throws a lot of *very fine*<BR>dust into the stratosphere. Where it hangs around for a *long* time,<BR>cutting off light to the surface.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3712<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (rly-ye02.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.199]) by air-ye03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:21:28 1900<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:20:54 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA03512;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:18:22 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:17:46 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA03416<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:17:46 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:17:46 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102201817.NAA03416@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3712<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 20 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3713<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>re: Darrian names?<BR>Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Re: Copyright Laws<BR>Re: Copyright Laws<BR>Re: fencing<BR>RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Imperial Civil Courts<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Lawyers rule the Imperium!<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>'techonomic' Stability (was RE: Ship habitability)<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: GURPS FAR TRADER question<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR>Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:17:52 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Darrian names?<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Is there a Darrian name list and/or language generator out there <BR><BR>I usually just use names from the appropriate appendices to The Lord of<BR>the Rings.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 <BR>a year!&nbsp; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:24:17 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR>I know Loren is writing a book on the Imperial Nobles, but perhaps we can<BR>spark his creative juices (as if he needed that right? &lt;wink&gt;) by asking<BR>questions or putting forth ideas on how we see the institution for our own<BR>traveller universes...<BR><BR>First off, I don't see the Imperial Nobles as being individuals entrusted<BR>with powers of absolute control.&nbsp; I don't see Nobles as being able to say<BR>"I like that land you have, er I have, you have 30 seconds to leave".<BR>Enough behavior like that, and I see a rebellion in the making as people<BR>realize that their Imperial Overlords are just that - OVERLORDS &lt;grin&gt;.<BR>What I do see happening however, is that the Imperial Government allocates<BR>funds for the purchase of land directly from the planetary governments.<BR>Such lands purchased become what amount to Embassies of the Imperium,<BR>handed over to Barons, Knights, Dukes, etc as the Emperor desires.<BR>Imperial Laws hold on Imperial soil, but local laws hold on local soil.<BR>&nbsp; As for other tasks entrusted to Barons and/or Dukes?&nbsp; I see them as tax<BR>collectors as well as administrators to the Emperor's will.&nbsp; If a Baron is<BR>instructed "I want you to build a planetary defense net for your planet,<BR>deduct the costs from the tax money you collect, and pass on the remainder<BR>to me" then that is what the Baron does.&nbsp; He may approach his superior<BR>saying "I see a need for a planetary defense grid upgrade for my planet,<BR>may I do so?" in the hopes that he can do just that.&nbsp; If not, he may dig<BR>into his own personal estates and tell the local planetary governments "You<BR>need to build a defense grid.&nbsp; I will match you credit for credit, but only<BR>if you build with the following minimums".<BR><BR>&nbsp; Another thing I see as being the case for the power of nobility is that<BR>they are judged by a different set of laws than normal imperial citizens.<BR>Any case that includes a noble in it is *required* to be heard by other<BR>more higher ranking nobles.&nbsp; In disputes between Barons, it requires a Duke<BR>to adjucate.&nbsp; In cases with Knights, it requires a Baron (or if two<BR>different knights on two planets, two barons, who in turn take it to their<BR>superior, the Duke if they can't resolve it to their mutual satisfaction).<BR><BR>So what else is left for the Nobility?&nbsp; Do they command Vast numbers of<BR>people - whole planets or countries?&nbsp; I very much doubt it.&nbsp; Can they<BR>affect vast numbers of people?&nbsp; I do not doubt they can.&nbsp; Someone who owns<BR>a city block's worth of territory in an industrial manufacturing sector<BR>very likely controls the actions of many people.&nbsp; By using his capital,<BR>such a person may expand much like a corporation does.&nbsp; If a Knight is<BR>wealthy enough, he can use his status within the culture to advance himself<BR>- - and far more effectively than perhaps a Rockerfeller or Gates might do<BR>&lt;grin&gt;.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:25:48 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Copyright Laws<BR><BR>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Gentlemen,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks thread mentioned<BR>&gt; copyright laws, specifically the fact that most nations ignore US statutes<BR>&gt; in that area.<BR><BR>As they should&nbsp; US laws are very relevant in other countries.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address this please?&nbsp; What is<BR>&gt; wrong about the US take on copyright protections that the rest of the world<BR>&gt; simply ignores them?&nbsp; Or is the idea that US copyright law is "incorrect"<BR>&gt; just a handy fig leaf to explain away widespread software, video, music, and<BR>&gt; any other type of media piracy?<BR><BR>Well, by operation of the Berne Treaty on Copyright, US law on the subject<BR>isn't that different from most other countires.&nbsp; So nothing is particularly<BR>'wrong'<BR>about it.<BR><BR>http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/copyright.html<BR><BR>http://www.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html<BR><BR>http://www.netatty.com/copy.html<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:29:01 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Copyright Laws<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:<BR>&gt; Gentlemen,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks thread mentioned <BR>&gt; copyright laws, specifically the fact that most nations ignore US statutes <BR>&gt; in that area.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address this please?&nbsp; What is <BR>&gt; wrong about the US take on copyright protections that the rest of the world<BR>&gt; simply ignores them?&nbsp; Or is the idea that US copyright law is "incorrect"<BR>&gt; just a handy fig leaf to explain away widespread software, video, music,<BR>&gt; and&nbsp; any other type of media piracy?<BR><BR>Basically, strong copyright laws benefit the publisher.&nbsp; Countries with <BR>substantial publishing industries will thus usually have stronger copyright<BR>laws than those without significant publishing industries.&nbsp; There's no <BR>obvious moral framework involved here.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:42:27 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt; puts into the Ether:<BR>&gt; &gt;From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "If you actually want to cause damage, use an epee'or light rapier."<BR>&gt;Mr. Urbin,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Is the long dagger called a "poignard"?&nbsp; I most likely have speeld that<BR>&gt;incorrectly.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>Close enough, and yes, it could be called that.<BR>Another term is Main Gauche.&nbsp; These range in design depending on the area.<BR>It could simply be a long dagger.&nbsp; Other "off hand" blades included things <BR>like:<BR><BR>a very large guard to protect the hand,<BR>extra 'trapping' blades (usually two, set at 45 degrees from the main <BR>blade, allowing you to trap a foe's blade in the manner of a Juite or Sai).<BR><BR>A heavy cloak was also often used as an off hand weapon.&nbsp; It's used not <BR>only to stop the blade, but also to trap/entangle it and to distract your foe.<BR><BR><BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Opinions should be yours too! -- http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>"Tension, apprehension and dissension have begun." -- Alfred Bester<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:47:02 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 19:40, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;I'm nowhere near a lawyer (either physically, or professionally), but I<BR>&gt; &gt;was pondering - if a nobles regularly had to adjudicate between<BR>&gt; &gt;possibly conflicting self-interests (the state vs. his shares in<BR>&gt; &gt;megacorp.X), wouldn't that be seen (by his peers and higher-ranking<BR>&gt; &gt;nobles, if not the population at large) as a Bad Thing ripe for<BR>&gt; &gt;corruption?&nbsp; If so, perhaps nobles delegate the judicial duties to<BR>&gt; &gt;professional judges (elected/appointed by the local peerage?), with<BR>&gt; &gt;final appeal to the noble themself in extreme cases.&nbsp; They'd be upper-<BR>&gt; &gt;level courts, not the lower and/or common level courts for regular<BR>&gt; &gt;criminal/civil actions, or lower-level 'imperial commercial courts'.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;Flame On&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Gee would that be like legislators making laws regulating industries that<BR>&gt; give them money through Political Action Committees (PAC's). yeah I think<BR>&gt; the population at large would do something about that right away.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &lt;Flame Off&gt;<BR><BR>I'm not sure if the 'flame' was directed at me or not, as I think we<BR>agree to some extent on this - having nobles as the judiciary when they<BR>are major shareholders of megacorps et al. is inviting opportunities <BR>for corruption or at least the appearance of corruption.<BR><BR>It's sounding like the Syleans who started the 3I and the attendant <BR>nobility may not have had a problem with this or the conflicts of <BR>interest, focussing on 'larger issues' perhaps, but may not have been <BR>seen as Very Nice People, or Friends of the Common Person who would <BR>likely get screwed by abuses of the megacorps that the nobles wouldn't <BR>convict.&nbsp; Bring on the Civil War, Arbellatra's revised 'constitution'/ <BR>'magna carta' to address some of this, and for the last five hundred <BR>years, the nobles haven't been the same nobles of yore (immoral, <BR>corrupt, power-hungry, according to some), but somewhat more <BR>immasculated, answering more strictly to their lieges, the emperor<BR>keeping them 'honest' for the better good of the whole Imperium.<BR><BR>Or could the emperor have forced a level of objectivity and 'justice' <BR>all the time?&nbsp; If there were appeals up to the emperor himself, <BR>then perhaps the emperor could act as a damper on the more extreme<BR>nobles.&nbsp; Who polices the police?<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR><BR>p.s. sorry if this is a little incoherent, it's another sleepy <BR>afternoon.&nbsp; I can elaborate/translate if required. :)<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>'what did he say?'...'blessed are the geek, dear, blessed are the geek, I think'<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:52:13 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;What's the title?&nbsp; Grand High Lord of Cabbage.&nbsp; There, happy now?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;But he is _addressed_ as "Your Munchiness" and _referred to_ as "His Crispy <BR>&gt;Munchiness, the Grand High Lord of Cabbage, Defender of the Health".<BR><BR>"Marquuess of Boston, Countess Romaine and Radicchio, Letticia von <BR>Eisberg-Kale"<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:08:49 -0800<BR>From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR>...<BR>&gt;Therefore for a TL15 political entity the size of&nbsp; the&nbsp; 3I&nbsp; would<BR>&gt;have&nbsp; no&nbsp; choice&nbsp; but&nbsp; to&nbsp; abandon&nbsp;&nbsp; democratic&nbsp;&nbsp; principles&nbsp;&nbsp; as<BR>&gt;unworkable, and&nbsp; replace&nbsp; it&nbsp; with&nbsp; a&nbsp; variation&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; feudal<BR>&gt;technocracy.&nbsp; Of&nbsp; course,&nbsp; some&nbsp; local&nbsp; planetary&nbsp; and&nbsp; subsector<BR>&gt;governments could be based along democratic lines&nbsp; if&nbsp; enough&nbsp; of<BR>&gt;the locals were afflicted with&nbsp; that&nbsp; particular&nbsp; fetish,&nbsp; but&nbsp; I<BR>&gt;wouldn't recommend it.<BR>...<BR>&gt;That's not to say the 3I doesn't have problems.&nbsp; The autonomy&nbsp; of<BR>&gt;planetary governments virtually gaurentees&nbsp; that&nbsp; there&nbsp; will&nbsp; be<BR>&gt;numerous cases&nbsp; of&nbsp; failure&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; *planetary*&nbsp; government&nbsp; to<BR>&gt;provide for its citizens (and that includes democratic&nbsp; planetary<BR>&gt;governments).<BR><BR>&nbsp; : Subject is evidently ideologically reliable; reviews on a two-<BR>year cycle. Forward recommendation that subject receive assistance<BR>in advancing his career - grants and patronage as usual, but no<BR>permanent tenure before age 40, per policy with radical pol issues :<BR><BR>&nbsp; (copies to be forwarded to allied intel agencies, except INI)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:06:30 -0500<BR>From: "Michael Daumen" &lt;daumen@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Lawyers rule the Imperium!<BR><BR>&gt; We have a wealth of knowledge here, and willingly share it.&nbsp; I don't know<BR>&gt; if you noticed, but much of the discussion of courts was being carried out<BR>&gt; by lawyers.&nbsp; People Who Know More Than You.<BR><BR>Hey, I like having people listen to what I say, but I wouldn't go that far.<BR>That kind of talk just gives lawyers undeserved egos and reinforces the<BR>stereotype most folks have.&nbsp; Lawyers may to have learn about courts or law<BR>in school, that knowledge rarely translates into intelligence or success.<BR><BR>&gt;That information might be useful to me someday.<BR><BR>I agree.&nbsp; There is so much room for ideas in Traveller that you never know<BR>which post will generate an adventure seed.&nbsp; With respect to the discussion<BR>that has bored some posters, I could rattle off 5 or so good adventures<BR>involving the legal issues we've kicked around.<BR><BR>Now, if everyone really does want to know, I will be happy to TELL all of<BR>you just how the Imperial Court system works for the modest fee of $250 per<BR>hour&nbsp; ; )<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:12:11 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Douglas E. Berry wrote :<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; At 12:38 PM 2/19/2001 -0700, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; What is that they say on the c-130 gunships "Don't run away, you'll only<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; die tired"<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Ah, the AC-130 Spectre.. a plane most player characters would love.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Heck, even the old Spooky is fun for PCs<BR><BR>Yeah, they always like hanging out with Mulder until a leech-like thing from the sewers of Jersey eats their brain...<BR><BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:15:49 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: 'techonomic' Stability (was RE: Ship habitability)<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 21:23, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>&gt; It's all where you draw the line. In the U.S. Air Force, Army and Marines<BR>&gt; the top 4 enlisted pay grades are counted as "senior" NCO's. (Most foreign<BR>&gt; navies follow the same practice.) In the USN you're not a senior NCO until<BR>&gt; you make E-7, Chief Petty Officer. So until you make CPO you have no special<BR>&gt; privileges. It's part of the continual creep of loss of privileges that is<BR>&gt; going on in the Navy. Up until the 1980's PO1's at least had separate<BR>&gt; messes, where they could network and unwind separately from their troops.<BR>&gt; This privilege was erased by the Navy, by eliminating this space on new<BR>&gt; ships as they were built. Meanwhile the responsibilities given to these men<BR>&gt; and women keep increasing.<BR><BR>&nbsp; This reminds me of the process that I've witnessed in the businesses <BR>where I've worked - the reduction in force of personnel and attendant <BR>increase in expectations, workloads and responsibilities for those that <BR>are left. (The general downsizing of corporations for the last, what, <BR>10-20 years, transition to a world economy (or so management says), <BR>flow of jobs to areas of cheap labor, increasing expectations from <BR>laborers in the older/previous areas of cheap labor.) <BR><BR>&nbsp; Is that and the similar process described by Terry related?&nbsp; <BR><BR>&nbsp; I'm thinking in terms of technology - improving tech levels allows <BR>for greater productivity, some great wave of side effects (pressures to <BR>compete, economic instability) causes shifting of jobs, workers, <BR>factories, cities, wealth, while the 'revolution' happens.<BR><BR>&nbsp; If so, what happens when technology stabilizes (I think you can see <BR>where I'm going with this), yea, even stagnates for long periods of <BR>time?&nbsp; I would expect to not see such pressures and instabilities - and <BR>the accompanying stresses and problems faced by the workers.<BR>Which could be a Good Thing.<BR><BR>&nbsp; If technology/productivity were relatively stable, then people could <BR>plan things with greater confidence, for longer periods into the future <BR>(possibly allowing longer-term projects or visions - 40+ year starship<BR>mortgages, 100+ year terraforming projects, etc., run through my head).<BR><BR>&nbsp; As well as more stable job classifications, expectations, duties, <BR>responsibility - the "immemorial custom of the service" as Jack Aubrey <BR>would say of the Royal Navy[1] - you'd know what was what, what was <BR>expected and what you could do.&nbsp; (Perhaps even some calcification of <BR>society too.&nbsp; Though expansion of the Imperium would ease that <BR>somewhat.&nbsp; Perhaps Core would be a very boring place[2].)<BR><BR>&nbsp; Would the frontier regions be more subject to economic changes?<BR>Would Core and other 'civilized' regions be more stable?<BR><BR>Ah well, I hope that wasn't too painful to read,<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR><BR><BR>[1] for all you Patrick O'Brian fans<BR>[2] I was just reading some of the Core vs. Frontier debate on the JTAS <BR>boards.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>'I don't suffer from insanity.&nbsp; I enjoy every minute of it.'<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:15:21 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Mr. Erickson,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; On a related subject, can't low powered lasers currently be used to <BR>&gt; blind?&nbsp; I got this nagging memory of attempts to blind pilots with them.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Just another figment of my little grey cells or is there a kernal of <BR>&gt; truth in it?<BR><BR>No, blinding is explicitly forbidden under the Geneva Convention. There were some laser-type stuff that people were afraid were going to be used to blind pilots, some sort of rangefinding gear IIRC.<BR><BR>"Honest, officer, it's not a weapon, it's our, uhh, err laser pointer! Yes it's a laser pointer!" Aims tube at screen which vanished in a sharp &lt;CRACK&gt; and puff of smoke. "We just have a few, uhh, bugs to work out!"<BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:22:37 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; "I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still Emperor in<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; the 1120s-1140s.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; :-P"&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Bloo,&nbsp; I'm with you,<BR>&gt; partner.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; Who spiked the water cooler&nbsp;&nbsp; when they<BR>&gt; came up with that one!??!&nbsp; Here's a list for you; New Coke, the<BR>&gt; Edsel, and Virus.<BR><BR>New Coke's formula quietly supplanted the original Coke within a few <BR>years, Pontiac put out a car in the early 60's bearing an uncanny <BR>resemblance to the Edsel, and it sold well for many years, and Virus is <BR>a simple, direct extrapolation of Marc Miller's own work in Adventure 13.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:38:18 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt;From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;All this take of legal systems and constitutions leads me back to a<BR>&gt;setting-shaking event I want to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it<BR>&gt;myself:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium. With a goal to create a<BR>&gt;Federal Republic type system.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Even in their wildest fantasies, the Ine Givar only look to liberating<BR>portions of the Domain of Deneb (at least in my Traveller universe).&nbsp; You<BR>are a wild man, counsellor.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 <BR>a year!&nbsp; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:50:41 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: GURPS FAR TRADER question<BR><BR>Hello Anthony,<BR>&nbsp; I think I failed my writing skill saving roll &lt;grin&gt;.<BR><BR>What I should have written was this:<BR><BR>As it looks now, FAR TRADER uses WTN as a vehicle for determine the trade<BR>volume that exists between two worlds.&nbsp; Thus, if a calculated BTN is 6.5,<BR>the daily cargo moving between point of origin and point of destination is<BR>listed as being in a range between 0 and 5.<BR>&nbsp; Originally, I thought that this range was what I needed to roll against<BR>when generating cargo volume on a daily basis.&nbsp; Thus, day 1 might mean<BR>rolling 1d6-1 and getting a 3.&nbsp; Day two would result in 1d6-1 and getting a<BR>4.&nbsp; Day three - well, and so on and so on.&nbsp; But as I look at the formula on<BR>page 24, it states "Current Freight Volume" as the header for a paragraph,<BR>and reads:<BR><BR>Current Volume = Average Volume + [(Current Price - Average Price)/Price<BR>Volatility] + Volume Volatility<BR><BR>As the key reads:<BR>Current Volume = Average daily volume this week (I presume this means the<BR>roll against chart on page 16)<BR>Last Volunme = The daily volume last week (precisely 1 week ago, or the<BR>average of the last week's volume?)<BR>Volume Volatility: Volatility number for the world's freight volume<BR>Price Roll = The result of the price roll under current freight rate rules<BR>Average Volume = the average volume for the origin's world with the<BR>destination world.<BR><BR>Giving values for the above variables:<BR>Average Volume = 3<BR>Current price = 735<BR>Average price = 700<BR>Price Volatility = 17.5 (or .025 * 700)<BR>Volume Volatility = .75 (or 3 * .25)<BR><BR>Current volume = 3 + [(735-700)/17.5] + .75 or 3+35/17.5 + .75 = 5.75<BR><BR>Am I making sense here?<BR><BR>&nbsp; As for the issue of Terms of Shipping?&nbsp; On pages 26 through 27, we find<BR>that the rules indicate the Captain or Purser is supposed to bid on which<BR>cargo lots they want to carry in their hold.&nbsp; From there, they roll against<BR>their Merchant skill to see just how much income they derive from carrying<BR>said cargo lot.&nbsp; The Terms of shipping modify the Merchant skill roll such<BR>that if you bid on a cargo that is DFD, you gain a +3 bonus to your<BR>merchant skill roll.&nbsp; If one assumes that one is taking a moderately<BR>hazardous cargo (good for perhaps a +2 bonus) plus a DFD cargo, the<BR>captain's merchant skill roll is increased from his base by a total of +5.<BR>Thus, a captain with a skill of 14 modified to 19, rolling a 10 on his<BR>roll, will earn 1.2 times the given amount of income for his cargo lot bid.<BR><BR>&nbsp; If you look at page 55 on the chart, it shows that the only time the<BR>captain is responsible for the cargo is when the goods are being<BR>transported outright.&nbsp; At no point in time do you see that the carrier is<BR>required to ship the goods directly to a "named place on the destination<BR>world" for a DFD.&nbsp; The only other assumption I can make is that when you<BR>bid DFD as a carrier, you are actually offering to carry the cargo not only<BR>to destination port, but also to the destination point.<BR><BR>&nbsp; By the by, has anyone seen what difference it makes to carry cargo in<BR>GURPS FAR TRADER with respect towards how fragile the cargo is?&nbsp; If I take<BR>something that is flamable and explosive, how do I determine if a mishap<BR>potentially occurs?&nbsp; By having a roll against freight handling?&nbsp; What is<BR>the difference between normal cargo and explosive cargo when rolling versus<BR>Freight handling?&nbsp; Should I even bother to roll with any modifiers?<BR>Perhaps all that happens is that when a player fails their freight handling<BR>roll, some of the cargo is damaged.&nbsp; If explosive, then an exposion check<BR>is made.&nbsp; If ordinary cargo, then it merely goes &lt;Thud&gt; or &lt;crunch&gt;.<BR>Having a cargo go boom at the first failure seems a bit drastic.&nbsp; Perhaps<BR>only on a crit failure does the explosive go boom, with ordinary failures<BR>resulting in open containers?&nbsp; A character who then takes twice the<BR>handling time gets a +2 to their handling skill roll, while something that<BR>is rated as mildly hazardous might give a -2 to handling skill rolls?<BR>&nbsp; Just musing here on the freight handling aspects...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:09:37 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; "Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; 2) Democracies work by having the elected pander to the&nbsp; fleeting<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; whims of the masses.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Thank you, Mr. Stalin.<BR><BR>No, that's true of every democracy that has ever existed. Which is why<BR>the folks who set up the US explicitly *avoided* making it a democracy.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Restrictions need&nbsp; to&nbsp; be&nbsp; in&nbsp; place&nbsp; to&nbsp; protect&nbsp; minorities.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Only if the majority wants to protect them.<BR><BR>Failing to do so is one of the prime reasons that democracies *fell*. <BR><BR>In essence, democracy is based on a badly flawed assumption. Namely,<BR>that what the majority wants to do is the right thing to do. <BR><BR>When it's merely a matter of preferences ("Should we paint the building<BR>blue or green?") it works well. When it's a matter of something that<BR>affects people ("Should polygamy be legal?") it doesn't work very well.<BR>And when it's a matter where there really *is* a "right answer", it<BR>doesn't work worth a damn. <BR><BR>It merely makes the largest number of people *comfortable*. <BR><BR>Just as an example, consider that in the US (and probably most of the<BR>other countries that this list has readers in) women are slightly in<BR>the majority. Which means that if it ever came down to it, they *could*<BR>vote to place restrictions on men. <BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; Also,&nbsp; as&nbsp;&nbsp; a&nbsp;&nbsp; society&nbsp;&nbsp; becomes&nbsp;&nbsp; more<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; technical, knowledge becomes&nbsp; more&nbsp; specialised&nbsp; ...&nbsp; and&nbsp; the<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; subset of people who have a sound grasp of the issues&nbsp; of&nbsp; the<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; day shrinks.&nbsp; Thus the effectiveness of democracy declines&nbsp; as<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; tech level increases.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I call B.S. on that.&nbsp; I think you're letting your views of the real<BR>&gt; world taint your imagination.<BR><BR>No, it's a major flaw of democracy. When the right answer to a question<BR>*isn't* a matter of opinion, democracy is *totally* inappropriate.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Therefore for a TL15 political entity the size of&nbsp; the&nbsp; 3I&nbsp; would<BR>&gt;&gt; have&nbsp; no&nbsp; choice&nbsp; but&nbsp; to&nbsp; abandon&nbsp;&nbsp; democratic&nbsp;&nbsp; principles&nbsp;&nbsp; as<BR>&gt;&gt; unworkable, and&nbsp; replace&nbsp; it&nbsp; with&nbsp; a&nbsp; variation&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; feudal<BR>&gt;&gt; technocracy.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Who says it has to be the size of the 3I?&nbsp; Who says the democratic<BR>&gt; mechanisms need to be similar to real world ones?<BR><BR>By *definition* the mechanisms are rather limited. And when you throw<BR>in jump lag, democracry *can't* work. Some form of *representative*<BR>government can. But even if the representatives are elected, that<BR>doesn't make the government a democracy.<BR><BR>&gt; Member worlds could select Senators based on whatever criteria<BR>&gt; or government type they want. The length of term of a Senator in<BR>&gt; the Imperial Senate might be 10, 20 or even 30 years. A President<BR>&gt; could be elected by the Senate every 10 or so years.<BR><BR>And that's *not* a democracy. It's a goverment with democractically<BR>elected representatives. A very different creature. <BR><BR>&gt; Democracy as fetish.&nbsp; You *are* Stalin, aren't you?&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>Sad to say, it *is* a fetish. Or more properly, a religion.<BR><BR>People don't understand what a democracy *is*, and expect it to be able<BR>to reach correct decision when the voters don't understand the issues.<BR>Both of which are substituting *faith* for practicality.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; What people want from their government is provision of safety and<BR>&gt;&gt; prosparity, leaders who can deal effectively with the&nbsp; issues&nbsp; of<BR>&gt;&gt; the day, and controls on abuse of&nbsp; power.&nbsp; Democracy&nbsp; is&nbsp; just&nbsp; a<BR>&gt;&gt; distraction.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; So that's what I want!&nbsp; Thanks for reminding me.<BR><BR>Well, there are also people who want their government to give them a<BR>share of other people's money, and to make other people conform to<BR>their idea of what the "right way to live" is. <BR><BR>And that latter is the scariest aspect of democracy. Ask anybody who<BR>has ever had laws passed that discriminate against "their kind". Or<BR>even who has had such laws placed on the ballot where they live. <BR><BR>I've been there. And until you have, don't be so quick to claim<BR>democracy as being the best form of government.<BR><BR>Yes, the same things or worse can happen under other forms of<BR>government. That merely means that democracy is better than those other<BR>forms, not that it is always (or even mostly) good or "right". <BR><BR>Majority rule sounds great until it's *your* blood the mob is howling for.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:47:59 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "Lovely. Exactly the sort of injuries weapons designers *love*, because <BR>&gt; they are hard to treat in the field, and tie up lots of enemy resources."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Mr. Erickson,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On a related subject, can't low powered lasers currently be used to <BR>&gt; blind?&nbsp; I got this nagging memory of attempts to blind pilots with them.<BR><BR>Oh certainly. But that's an "illegal" use of them, as I understand<BR>things. <BR><BR>Also, if you know the frequency of the laser, protecting against<BR>*those* power levels is trivial. A half-wave (or is it qurater wave?)<BR>coating on the pilot's visor will reflect virtually all of that<BR>wavelength, without affecting any others. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:44:23 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Hello Jeff,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Based on what I've read about what happens when you get a really HUGE<BR>&gt; volcanic erruption - the planet enters into a mini-ice age.&nbsp; What happens<BR>&gt; is that the particles suspended in the atmosphere raise the albedo of the<BR>&gt; planet such that some of the light is reflected back out.&nbsp; As for more rain<BR>&gt; and the like?&nbsp; I am guessing that is entirely at the whim of how much water<BR>&gt; vapor is found in the air at that point in time.<BR><BR>The trick is that rain clouds are in the troposphere. And thus, the<BR>dust washes out quickly. Dust in the *stratosphere* lingers for<BR>extended periods. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:58:31 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR><BR>&gt;From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Try global *cooling*. A *single* volcanic eruption resulted in "the<BR>year without a summer" back in 1815(?). And comparison of modern geological <BR>dating of eruptions with historical records shows other<BR>occurences."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "The basic mechanism is that the eruption throws a lot of *very fine* <BR>dust into the stratosphere. Where it hangs around for a *long* time, cutting <BR>off light to the surface."<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I believe the odds on favorite for the volcano in question is located <BR>in Indonesia.&nbsp; The years referred to was 1816.&nbsp; The growing season in North <BR>America and Europe was severely curtailed.&nbsp; There were records of snow fall <BR>during the month of July in New Hampshire (a US state in the New England <BR>region).<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; There have been other climate changes that cannot be linked to <BR>catastrophic events; the Little Ice Age on Europe's early 1600's is one.&nbsp; It <BR>snuffed out the remaining Norse colonies in Greenland.&nbsp; During the two(?) <BR>decades in question the North Sea froze on a regualr basis.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3713<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 20 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3714<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: A Lucky Find?<BR>Re: Megatraveller &amp; CT (longish)<BR>Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR>Re: Copyright Laws<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: fencing<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Copyright Laws<BR>re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Re: Megatraveller &amp; CT (longish)<BR>re: Lawyers rule the Imperium!<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Banana Now!<BR>Re: Nasty cargo bays...<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: Civility and Politeness<BR>Re: Banana Now!<BR>Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: En Garde<BR>Re: fencing<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:04:36 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; 1) Democracies&nbsp;&nbsp; require&nbsp;&nbsp; timely&nbsp;&nbsp; communication&nbsp;&nbsp; between&nbsp;&nbsp; the<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; electorate and the elected.&nbsp; For low tech worlds&nbsp; this&nbsp; limits<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; the effective size of countries.&nbsp; For the&nbsp; Imperium&nbsp; it&nbsp; would<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; limit&nbsp; the&nbsp; size&nbsp; of&nbsp; effective&nbsp; government&nbsp; to&nbsp; roughly&nbsp;&nbsp; the<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; subsector scale.<BR><BR>Why?&nbsp; Just elect your representative, send him to Capital for a few years,<BR>and trust that he'll vote the right way.&nbsp; Nobles vote in the Moot all the<BR>time without the latest information about their homeworlds, right?&nbsp; Of<BR>course, this means that elections will be decided less on the basis of<BR>stands on particular issues than on the question of the candidate's<BR>integrity and ability to make the right decision without checking the<BR>polls, but is this such a bad thing?<BR><BR>&gt; 2) Democracies work by having the elected pander to the&nbsp; fleeting<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; whims of the masses.&nbsp; <BR><BR>I think you wrote "work" where you meant to write "fail."&nbsp; Fortunately,<BR>the communications lag will help prevent this since the representative<BR>will have to wait several months for the latest polls.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:04:44 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>Leonard Erickson writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Also, if you know the frequency of the laser, protecting against<BR>&gt; *those* power levels is trivial. A half-wave (or is it qurater wave?)<BR>&gt; coating on the pilot's visor will reflect virtually all of that<BR>&gt; wavelength, without affecting any others. <BR><BR>Not to mention that they're working on microsecond filtering devices, which<BR>can automatically darken to prevent damage.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:05:33 +0100<BR>From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?<BR><BR>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>&gt; TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>&gt; Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>&gt; Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR><BR>It's not working. I want my money/soul/whatever back.<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:07:35 -0500<BR>From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>Subject: Re: Megatraveller &amp; CT (longish)<BR><BR>Michael Daumen wrote:<BR>&gt; In y'all's opinion, what in the Megatraveller universe can be <BR>&gt;readily applied to an CT/GT campaign?&nbsp; Some has been said about Fighting <BR>&gt;Ships of the Shattered Imperium and the COACC manual, but what of the Rebellion <BR>&gt;Sourcebook, Encyclopedia or Diaspora Sector?&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp;<BR>GDW-material<BR><BR>MT Player &amp; Referee Handbooks: the rules; with the errata it's my Trav-system of choice<BR><BR>Imperial Encyclopedia: Library Data, mostly the same info as CT supp. 8 &amp; 11 or the GT book.<BR><BR>Referee's Companion: miscellaneous rules and background, most of which can be applied to any era.&nbsp; Probably the most broadly useful for non-MT/rebellion games<BR><BR>Rebellion Sourcebook: lots o' setting-specific background; some material on fleets, nobility, etc. with broader applicability, most of which will probably be plundered/superseded by upcoming GT books<BR><BR>COACC: detailed info on a narrow focus; I never really used this book, but AFAIK it wasn't broken<BR><BR>Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium: landfill material, as bad as the worst of T4<BR><BR>Knightfall: adventure in DGP-style; too tightly-scripted for my tastes, but there are lift-able scenes and ideas<BR><BR>Hard Times: really a seperate setting; very interesting but not a whole lot to apply to other settings (except maybe TNE)<BR><BR>Assignment Vigilante: Hard Times supplement; don' really remember it<BR><BR>Diaspora Sector: world info for Hard Times-era<BR><BR>Arrival Vengeance: ties-up the Rebellion storyline<BR><BR>DGP-material<BR><BR>101 Vehicles: worthless to non-MT refs; opinions vary otherwise (several dubious designs)<BR><BR>Starship Op. Manual: controversial 'pseudo-science' combined with valuable anecdotal detail; if we're lucky GT Starships will be this good<BR><BR>World Builder's Handbook: once indispensible, since trumped by GT First In; still very worthwhile<BR><BR>Referee's Kit: nothing necessary for non-MT games<BR><BR>Vilani &amp; Vargr/Solomani &amp; Aslan: superseded by GT Alien Modules; detail on Vilani differs significantly from other canon sources<BR><BR>Flaming Eye: Vilani &amp; Vargr-themed adventures; top-notch IMO<BR><BR>Err... did I miss anything?&nbsp; In summary:&nbsp; of the GDW books you'd probably find use for the main rules and the Ref Companion, everything else can be done without.&nbsp; Pretty much all of the DGP material is good, but don't expect it to match what's come out since.<BR><BR>Anyhow, hope this helped.<BR><BR>Trent<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:11:54 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR><BR>Hello Leonard,<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The trick is that rain clouds are in the troposphere. And thus, the<BR>&gt;dust washes out quickly. Dust in the *stratosphere* lingers for<BR>&gt;extended periods. <BR><BR>What mechanism brings the dust from the Stratosphere down to lower levels?<BR>I suspect &lt;sheepish grin&gt; that it is gravity - but what keeps it up there<BR>in defiance of gravity?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:08:31 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Copyright Laws<BR><BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Well, by operation of the Berne Treaty on Copyright, US law on the <BR>subject isn't that different from most other countires.&nbsp; So nothing is <BR>particularly 'wrong' about it."<BR><BR><BR>Bloo, Esq.,<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks for the quick turn around on this one.&nbsp; I must have misread or <BR>misunderstood the original post.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I thought I'd sniffed up a nice adventure that wouldn't involve too <BR>much "boom boom" on the PCs part.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks again.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:12:21 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Just as an example, consider that in the US (and probably most of the<BR>&gt; other countries that this list has readers in) women are slightly in<BR>&gt; the majority. Which means that if it ever came down to it, they *could*<BR>&gt; vote to place restrictions on men. <BR><BR>I'm not sure that some of the whackier anti-porn laws don't qualify,<BR>although technically and in some cases actually they restrict both<BR>genders.<BR><BR>&gt; Well, there are also people who want their government to give them a<BR>&gt; share of other people's money, and to make other people conform to<BR>&gt; their idea of what the "right way to live" is. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; And that latter is the scariest aspect of democracy. Ask anybody who<BR>&gt; has ever had laws passed that discriminate against "their kind". Or<BR>&gt; even who has had such laws placed on the ballot where they live. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I've been there. And until you have, don't be so quick to claim<BR>&gt; democracy as being the best form of government.<BR><BR>Yea, verily.&nbsp; Me too.<BR><BR>&gt; Majority rule sounds great until it's *your* blood the mob is howling for.<BR><BR>Can I put that on my quotes page, Leonard?<BR><BR>Kiri ^_^<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:12:30 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;On a related subject, can't low powered lasers currently be used to blind?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;No, blinding is explicitly forbidden under the Geneva Convention.<BR><BR>But that applies only to uniformed combatants, yes? Back before I left <BR>GEnie, there was some discussion (from those who would know) of a laser that <BR>could trace back along the path of a bullet and blind the shooter. It was <BR>designed with stopping "francs-tireuers" in mind.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:14:35 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>Pat Connaughton wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,<BR>&gt; better for close in work.<BR>Someone with a rapier would have your kidneys for shish-kebab before you <BR>got close enough to use either.<BR><BR>Someone with a main-gauche and rapier would not only have them but have <BR>sliced them into nice filets with fava beans and a nice chianti ;-P<BR><BR>http://www.armory.net/item.cfm?RecordId=WS-H9<BR><BR>For close-in work you have the main-gauche.<BR><BR>http://www.armory.net/Dagger001.htm<BR><BR>Though my favorites are at http://www.museumreplicas.com &lt;drool&gt;<BR><BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:16:01 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 3:50, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As the military is forced to handle more and more technical duties, <BR>&gt; determining pay rates without taking into account the actual job being <BR>&gt; performed is asinine.&nbsp; We already pay pilots, divers, demo experts more, way <BR>&gt; not the hard to fill tech rates?&nbsp; Heck, why not ALL hard to fill rates more? <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The USN has far too many typewriter bangers and cooks, but far too few <BR>&gt; bosuns.&nbsp; Might "bosun pay" entice a few more into the rate?&nbsp; The Army could <BR>&gt; use the same device to flesh out it's infantry ranks.<BR><BR>Is this in whole or in part due to changing technology, in your <BR>opinion?&nbsp; If so, how would this play in the TU where tech changes so <BR>slowly for the last hundred if not 1000 years?&nbsp; Or does that have <BR>nothing to do with it (and it's purely the economics of available <BR>resources in various locations/jobs/etc.)?<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>vi is my sheperd; i shall not font.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- Wm.Julien<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:15:36 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Copyright Laws<BR><BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Basically, strong copyright laws benefit the publisher.&nbsp; Countries <BR>with substantial publishing industries will thus usually have stronger <BR>copyright laws than those without significant publishing industries.&nbsp; <BR>There's no obvious moral framework involved here."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Jackson,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you sir for your response.&nbsp; I was nosing around for an adventure <BR>seed and not making a moral "judgement" on the enforcement or <BR>non-enforcement of copyrights.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; China's army currently operates hundreds of facilities that priate <BR>western software, music recordings, videos, etc. as a way to supplement <BR>their budget.&nbsp; The tacit approval of this operation by the government there <BR>is one of several stumblng blocks for China's WTO membership.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I can easily see a world in the 3I or one just over the border, who <BR>derive a large percentage of their off-world income by similar means.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:20:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>&gt;From: hal@buffnet.net<BR><BR>&gt; I know Loren is writing a book on the Imperial Nobles, but <BR>&gt;perhaps we can spark his creative juices (as if he needed that right? <BR>&gt;&lt;wink&gt;) by asking questions or putting forth ideas on how we see the <BR>&gt;institution for our own traveller universes...<BR><BR>Here is my Cr0.02:<BR><BR>The nobility did not spring fully formed from the mind of Zeus.&nbsp; It is the<BR>product of a very long history (on the order of 10,000 years).&nbsp; The Ziru<BR>Sirka had a hereditary management class, which was essentially a nobility.<BR>The Terrans conquered the Ziru Sirka and placed military governors with<BR>small forces over the various worlds and regions of the Ziru Sirka.&nbsp; Far<BR>from home and without orders for long periods of time, these military<BR>governors chose their own successors, eventually establishing hereditary<BR>offices.&nbsp; When the Rule of Man was established, it confirmed and to some<BR>extent regulated this practice and thus created the first official<BR>post-Vilani nobility.&nbsp; <BR><BR>The Rule of Man collapsed into the Long Night.&nbsp; Many nobles continued to<BR>rule as they had before.&nbsp; Some new ones created themselves in the chaos. <BR>The Ziru Sirkan nobility had never been suppressed de jure, only de facto<BR>and then only partially.&nbsp; It was able to reassert itself, especially in<BR>Vland sector, during the Long Night.<BR><BR>When Cleon started the Third Imperium, he generally preserved the status<BR>quo, thus bringing the existing nobility of annexed regions into his camp,<BR>and aiding his conquest of this region of space.&nbsp; He also created a large<BR>number of new nobles, in order to create a faction that would be even more<BR>loyal to him and would outnumber the existing Ziru Sirkan and Terran<BR>nobility.<BR><BR>By 1100, a bewildering mix of titles, powers, fiefs, and heraldry<BR>characterizes the state of the nobility.&nbsp; It is a perfect setting for<BR>role-playing.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 <BR>a year!&nbsp; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:30:52 -0600<BR>From: Leslie Bates &lt;lesbates@minn.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Megatraveller &amp; CT (longish)<BR><BR>At 03:07 PM 2/20/01 -0500, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium: landfill material, as bad as the<BR>worst of T4<BR><BR>What we needed IMO was MERCHANTS AND PATROL SHIPS OF THE SHATTERED IMPERIUM.<BR><BR>Les<BR><BR>=======================================================<BR>Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.<BR>=======================================================<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:23:13 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Lawyers rule the Imperium!<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Michael Daumen" &lt;daumen@mindspring.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Now, if everyone really does want to know, I will be happy <BR>&gt;to TELL all of you just how the Imperial Court system works for the<BR>&gt;modest fee of $250 per hour<BR><BR>I never paid any of my law professors that much.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 <BR>a year!&nbsp; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:23:36 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>"Mr. Urbin, I most likely have speeld that incorrectly."<BR><BR>Mr. Urbin,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you sir.&nbsp; Apparently, as you can see above, I cannot spell <BR>"spelled" correctly either.!<BR><BR>"Other "off hand" blades included things like:<BR>1) a very large guard to protect the hand,<BR>2) extra 'trapping' blades (usually two, set at 45 degrees from the<BR>main blade, allowing you to trap a foe's blade in the manner of a Juite<BR>or Sai).<BR>3) A heavy cloak was also often used as an off hand weapon.&nbsp; It's used<BR>not only to stop the blade, but also to trap/entangle it and to distract<BR>your foe."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Looks like there's quite a bit of reading left to do justice to dueling <BR>in my Land Grab entry.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks again!<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:30:28 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Banana Now!<BR><BR>On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Member worlds could select Senators based on whatever criteria<BR>&gt; &gt; or government type they want. The length of term of a Senator in<BR>&gt; &gt; the Imperial Senate might be 10, 20 or even 30 years. A President<BR>&gt; &gt; could be elected by the Senate every 10 or so years.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; And that's *not* a democracy. It's a goverment with democractically<BR>&gt; elected representatives. A very different creature. <BR><BR>Call it what you want.&nbsp; I'll call it a banana (see subject).&nbsp; I submit<BR>that is ought to replace the Imperial system, since the communication lag is<BR>no problem for it and it's clearly more democratic.<BR><BR>&gt; Majority rule sounds great until it's *your* blood the mob is howling for.<BR><BR>Of course democracy can lead to evil.&nbsp; What form of government hasn't at<BR>some point in history?&nbsp; Certainly not the Imperial system.&nbsp; Replace that<BR>mob with Emperor Strephon, and if you're in Imperial jurisdiction you're<BR>still going to bleed.&nbsp; I still believe that a democracy, moderated by<BR>constitutional limits on the government's power, is the wisest course.<BR><BR>Or if you don't care for my rambling, Winston Churchill said it best:<BR>"Many forms of government have been tried, and will be tried in this world<BR>of sin and woe.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has<BR>been said that<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms<BR>that have been<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; tried from time to time."<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Greg Kettler<BR><BR>"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you<BR>may not actually need an explicit loop exit.&nbsp; The loop will be terminated<BR>automatically at the appropriate moment."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:30:26 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nasty cargo bays...<BR><BR>ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt; wrote<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; On 17 Feb 2001, at 22:53, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &gt; ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; Ok,what the heck is a groat?? LOL.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &gt; A groat is an alien animal which, due to some amazing coincidence, is<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &gt; remarkably similiar to a goat or sheep...<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Or it's an old English silver coin of four pence value.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Or it's a grain based food product, often made of buckwheat,<BR>&gt; most commonly consumed as a breakfast cereal.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; hhhmmm......what would the overhead be on a bulk shipment of that??<BR>&gt; Interesting.<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>Yeah, especially if, as grain shipments often do, it comes with pests: rats, mice, insects.<BR><BR>Rats loose in a starship...not a lot of fun!<BR><BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:30:51 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; I've been there. And until you have, don't be so quick to claim<BR>&gt; &gt; democracy as being the best form of government.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Yea, verily.&nbsp; Me too.<BR><BR>It's worth noting that the US is not a democracy (in fact, I can't think of <BR>any large political entity ever that has truly been a democracy).&nbsp; The US<BR>is a constitutional republic.<BR><BR>In practice, it isn't obvious that the Imperium is an empire anyway; the power<BR>actually isn't really concentrated at the top, like a proper empire.&nbsp; If Mora<BR>decides to withhold its military taxes, the entire sector fleet can't really<BR>force it to change its mind.&nbsp; Particularly if you actually want to defend the<BR>sector at the same time.&nbsp; As a result, member worlds really do have a <BR>significant say in the actions of the empire.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:32:59 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "No, blinding is explicitly forbidden under the Geneva Convention."<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Gee, just like unrestricted submarine warfare, poison gas, dropping <BR>bombs from aircraft, shotguns, dum-dums, and a few others items.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Just like you Mr. Johnson, I have very little faith in any nation <BR>following these Conventions even with the fear of getting caught.&nbsp; They'll <BR>always have an excuse.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Oh no, High Commissioner!&nbsp; That laser system is used to clean the <BR>windshields of our aircraft while in flight.&nbsp; We'd never use it to BLIND <BR>anyone!&nbsp; Our windshield wiper techs must have mistaken the enemy aircraft <BR>for ours and the poor quality of the enemy windshields let them get blinded, <BR>that's all.&nbsp; It's just too bad that it happened over and opver and over and <BR>over..."<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:43:05 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness<BR><BR>Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; James wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;Though in my experience, the only reliable sub killers are submarines<BR>&gt; &gt;themselves....<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Actually, the best sub-killer is a P3 Orion.<BR>&gt; &lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>Actually the best sub-killer is budget cuts, which have<BR>killed far more subs than Orion's ever have.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:56:30 -0800<BR>From: "Thing" &lt;thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Banana Now!<BR><BR>On Tuesday, February 20, 2001 12:30 PM<BR>Gregory Carl Kettler said,<BR><BR>&gt; Or if you don't care for my rambling, Winston Churchill said it best:<BR>&gt; "Many forms of government have been tried, and will be tried in this world<BR>of sin and woe.<BR>&gt; No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been<BR>said that<BR>&gt; democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms<BR>&gt; that have been&nbsp; tried from time to time."<BR><BR>That wasn't Winston Churchill, it was Mary Albright from Third Rock from the<BR>sun.<BR>"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the rest of<BR>them."<BR><BR>;)<BR><BR>G.D.D.<BR>ThingUnderTheStairs<BR>Minion of SheChemist and GothBunny<BR>Grand Master of the Electron Flow<BR>===========================<BR>"A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:54:03 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>On 19 Feb 2001, at 23:58, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>&gt; Foils are *only* used in sport fencing, and started out as a practice<BR>&gt; weapon for epee training. They are *totally* unsuitable for duel of the<BR>&gt; sort described, especially when "long daggers" are being used in the<BR>&gt; off hand. Foils are just too easy to *break* if blocked by that dagger.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; At least the above is what my friends who fence told me.<BR><BR>Yes, foils started as training weapons.&nbsp; I would think it possible a <BR>weapon of similar shape (length and thinness of blade) that could be <BR>made with [more advanced/different] materials (I forget the TL of Lehar <BR>if it was mentioned).&nbsp; It could be faster than the heavier epee and <BR>still have some decent penetration if so stiffened.&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; It might also generate more scars (be easier to give a scar-<BR>generating wound instead of deeper death-inflicting wounds), maybe <BR>making the first blood options more prevalent (depending on the <BR>temprament of the natives).<BR>&nbsp; The off-hand dagger could also be similarly light and thin, which <BR>would affect it's use in the duel as well (quick secondary attacks<BR>versus disarms).<BR><BR><BR>Rob ("hopefully not a Master of the Obvious") D.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>'C program run.&nbsp; C program crash.&nbsp; C programmer quit.'<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:03:03 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>Pat Connaughton &lt;patconnaughton@earthlink.net&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,<BR>&gt;better for close in work.<BR><BR>Pat, you make me regret that the family blade collection is stored<BR>instead of mounted on the wall (as they were in our previous home.)<BR>Lori and I have edged weapons ranging from dirks to 2-handed<BR>great swords, with about everything in between (including a lovely<BR>gladius-sized short sword, a couple of Katanas, and a really wicked,<BR>double-bit battle axe we had forged in England.)&nbsp; Sigh.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:11:45 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: En Garde<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;On 19 Feb 2001, at 19:22, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow for<BR>&gt;&gt; female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and _Desiree_.<BR>&gt;&gt; Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king even moreso, but both<BR>&gt;&gt; had their rewards.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Ohhh Ohh Ohhh, see must have. I suppose that these have long since <BR>&gt;disappeared into the great void of "might-have-been" (he says really really <BR>&gt;hoping for an answer in the negative).<BR><BR>Mon freres,<BR><BR>I fear we have no choice. We can, nay, must free France from the tyrrany that is the lazy, corrupt <BR>Jansenists that have the King in their thrall.<BR><BR>Oh, and that coat, m'sieur it is c'est bon.<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>PS I know it is OT, but I feel we have no choice but to start an En Garde PBEM. Who is reffing ?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:12:38 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;"Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt; puts into the Ether:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "If you actually want to cause damage, use an epee'or light rapier."<BR>&gt; &gt;Mr. Urbin,<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Is the long dagger called a "poignard"?&nbsp; I most likely have speeld <BR>&gt; that<BR>&gt; &gt;incorrectly.<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Larsen<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Close enough, and yes, it could be called that.<BR>&gt;Another term is Main Gauche.<BR><BR>Mark, at the risk of picking nits, a poignard/poniard is not the same as a<BR>main gauche. They have different designs and serve different functions.<BR><BR>A poignard is a small thrusting dagger having a blade of square or triangular<BR>cross-section and no cutting edge per se.&nbsp; As such it is only useful as a<BR>thrusting weapon.&nbsp; Also, they typically have little or nothing in the way of<BR>a hilt, making them of little use as a parrying tool.<BR><BR>The main gauche, OTOH, was designed specifically to be an off-hand<BR>secondary weapon/parrying tool. The blade is of conventional cross-section<BR>and is straight and double-edged. The hilt is strong, wide, and frequently<BR>includes prongs or grooves designed to catch and, potentially, break the<BR>blade of an opponents weapon. There is also almost always a pommel<BR>to protect the hand of the wielder.<BR><BR>Just FYI.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3714<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xa05.mx.aol.com (rly-xa05.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.74]) by air-xa01.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:23:14 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xa05.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:22:42 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA12539;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:19:55 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:19:35 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA12489<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:19:35 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:19:35 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102202119.QAA12489@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3714<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3715</B></TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 20 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3715<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Don't run...<BR>Noblesse oblige<BR>Re: Copyright Laws<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR>Re: Source Code request?<BR>Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR>re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR>Re: Copyright Laws<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>re: fencing<BR>Re: Copyright Laws<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>[www] 20 Feb 2001 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:15:59 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Don't run...<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; What is that they say on the c-130 gunships "Don't run away, you'll only<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; die tired"<BR><BR>This is more commonly a line used by snipers (predominantly USMC, since<BR>they are far superior to the other branches of service, right Doug?)<BR><BR>Other quotes include "Reach out and touch someone" and "Sniper: the next<BR>best thing to being there."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; USMC EOD: Destroyed in 30 minutes or the next one's FREE!<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:22:30 -0500<BR>From: "Michael Daumen" &lt;daumen@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Noblesse oblige<BR><BR>&gt; As for other tasks entrusted to Barons and/or Dukes?&nbsp; I see them as tax<BR>&gt; collectors as well as administrators to the Emperor's will.&nbsp; If a Baron is<BR>&gt; instructed "I want you to build a planetary defense net for your planet,<BR>&gt; deduct the costs from the tax money you collect, and pass on the remainder<BR>&gt; to me" then that is what the Baron does.&nbsp; He may approach his superior<BR>&gt; saying "I see a need for a planetary defense grid upgrade for my planet,<BR>&gt; may I do so?" in the hopes that he can do just that.&nbsp; If not, he may dig<BR>&gt; into his own personal estates and tell the local planetary governments<BR>"You<BR>&gt; need to build a defense grid.&nbsp; I will match you credit for credit, but<BR>only<BR>&gt; if you build with the following minimums".<BR>&gt;<BR>Don't they have to assist or even command the military in times of war, or<BR>at least defense?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Another thing I see as being the case for the power of nobility is that<BR>&gt; they are judged by a different set of laws than normal imperial citizens.<BR>&gt; Any case that includes a noble in it is *required* to be heard by other<BR>&gt; more higher ranking nobles.&nbsp; In disputes between Barons, it requires a<BR>Duke<BR>&gt; to adjucate.&nbsp; In cases with Knights, it requires a Baron (or if two<BR>&gt; different knights on two planets, two barons, who in turn take it to their<BR>&gt; superior, the Duke if they can't resolve it to their mutual satisfaction).<BR>&gt;<BR>The average joe may believe that nobles are a better cut of man who can make<BR>weighty decisions with the best interests of the Imperium in mind, so they<BR>deserve the benefits they get.&nbsp; Others have eloquently stated that this<BR>standard may not be met when nobles have a stake in the affairs they handle.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; So what else is left for the Nobility?&nbsp; Do they command Vast numbers of<BR>&gt; people - whole planets or countries?&nbsp; I very much doubt it.&nbsp; Can they<BR>&gt; affect vast numbers of people?&nbsp; I do not doubt they can.&nbsp; Someone who owns<BR>&gt; a city block's worth of territory in an industrial manufacturing sector<BR>&gt; very likely controls the actions of many people.&nbsp; By using his capital,<BR>&gt; such a person may expand much like a corporation does.&nbsp; If a Knight is<BR>&gt; wealthy enough, he can use his status within the culture to advance<BR>himself<BR>&gt; - - and far more effectively than perhaps a Rockerfeller or Gates might do<BR>&gt; &lt;grin&gt;.<BR>&gt;<BR>Social Standing is worth something, if only good benefits when you muster<BR>out.&nbsp; I would think a party with very high Soc would not have the same<BR>adventures most Traveller characters experience.&nbsp; Something more like Pocket<BR>Empires.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:14:44 -0500<BR>From: "Michael Daumen" &lt;daumen@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Copyright Laws<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Gentlemen,<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks thread mentioned<BR>&gt; &gt; copyright laws, specifically the fact that most nations ignore US<BR>statutes<BR>&gt; &gt; in that area.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address this please?&nbsp; What is<BR>&gt; &gt; wrong about the US take on copyright protections that the rest of the<BR>world<BR>&gt; &gt; simply ignores them?&nbsp; Or is the idea that US copyright law is<BR>"incorrect"<BR>&gt; &gt; just a handy fig leaf to explain away widespread software, video, music,<BR>and<BR>&gt; &gt; any other type of media piracy?<BR>&gt;<BR>I don't think it's a question of right or wrong; just that piracy is a good<BR>source of income for nations that practice it (like a Communist, Heavily<BR>Industrializing, Nominally Agricultural country for purposes of<BR>idenfication).&nbsp; Pirates don't need to pay royalties, so all it costs to make<BR>knock-offs is the price of materials, and maybe one copy of the thing being<BR>pirated.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Basically, strong copyright laws benefit the publisher.&nbsp; Countries with<BR>&gt; substantial publishing industries will thus usually have stronger<BR>copyright<BR>&gt; laws than those without significant publishing industries.&nbsp; There's no<BR>&gt; obvious moral framework involved here.<BR>&gt;<BR>The creator of the copyrighted material also benefits, in the form of<BR>royalties that publisher pays to disseminate the work.&nbsp; The US Constitution<BR>says that intellectual property rights will "promote the Progress of Science<BR>and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the<BR>exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."<BR><BR>TML Legal Dream Team.&nbsp; Yeah.&nbsp; I like it.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:32 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;10220.024825.9E2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>At Gen Con UK last summer I was standing chatting to a certain Gary Gygax, <BR>who was the guest of honour. A chap I didn't know came up and said "Hey <BR>are you Mexal?", totally ignoring Gary (who was quite glad, he'd sneaked <BR>out for a smoke!). When I responded in the affirmative, this fellow <BR>nattered for a bit, then asked me how long I'd been roleplaying. "Since <BR>1977" I said.<BR><BR>He turned to Gary, having belatedly realised I was in conversation with <BR>someone when he'd arrived on the scene. "How about you, how long?" he <BR>asked. "Oh, about 1970" said Gary.<BR><BR>"Surely not" said the oik. "Nothing had been published then! What were <BR>you using for rules?"<BR><BR>"Oh, about 30 pages of manuscript" said Gary, totally deadpan. Then we <BR>took pity (?) on the oik and told him who Gary was :-)<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:31 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Source Code request?<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;20010220182602.Z2168@freeman.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts, especially Tim<BR><BR>Fret not - nice piece of code. Probably wouldn't have asked, but of having <BR>received it it has been tucked safely away :-)<BR><BR>Thanks.<BR><BR>TechSgt Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:32 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;10220.095120.8g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>It's going to be cold and dark... plant life is NOT going to like it. This <BR>will affect atmospheric balances: if it's cold plants don't grow fast but <BR>if it's dark they find it hard to photosynthesise. As you probably know, <BR>when a plant is actively photosynthesising, the net outcome is that it <BR>takes in carbon dioxide and gives out oxygen. But if it cannot, then it <BR>takes in oxygen and gives out carbon dioxide just like you do and for the <BR>same reason - it's breathing! So oxygen levels go down...<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:32 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;20010220193818.40569.qmail@web10001.mail.yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>I must confess to a less-than-strictly-canon TRAVELLER universe...<BR><BR>But the nearest contemporary-Earth analogue to the way the politics work <BR>is the UN, or at least, the UN the way it was intended rather than the way <BR>it worked out.<BR><BR>Most individual planets, or sometimes groups of planets, have a government <BR>- - sort of a planet-wide nation state. These may have all manner of forms, <BR>democratic or otherwise. (I had one player, who liked politics in the <BR>'real world' too, who wandered around in his free trader joining political <BR>parties on each world he visited!)<BR><BR>The role of the Imperium is to arbitrate or police inter-planetary <BR>disputes, regulate trade, explore, run major spaceports, licence ships &amp; <BR>certain professions (spacemen, medical doctors...) and stuff like that. <BR>The Imperial Armed Forces exist mainly for the policing role. (Just don't <BR>say that to an IN man, he'll belt you. The Army and Marines realise their <BR>role a bit better, but us gropos tend to be pragmatic!)<BR><BR>Legal matters are dealt with on the planet in question under its laws, <BR>unless it is a dispute that spreads over several planets. I'm sure you've <BR>seen legal agreements that say something about 'in case of dispute this <BR>contract will be settled according to the laws of X country' (she says <BR>trying to remember the wording of my PENDRAGON sourcebook contract which <BR>has done a runner from where I thought it was...). Only really big law <BR>cases or points of law that get appealed and appealed and appealed get out <BR>of the planetary courts and reach sub-sector or sector levels.<BR><BR>Enought whittering...<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:32 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;10219.235836.4z5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts, especially Leonard.<BR><BR>Thanks for that thought... I'll go upstairs and ask my dearly beloved, who <BR>used to be a fencer.<BR><BR>Erm. Maybe they call them foils but they are actually a bit more robust <BR>than those things they use in the average salle des arms. Potential for <BR>terminology confusion if some hapless PC is challenged and told he needs <BR>to use a 'foil' and turns up with something raided from the fencing <BR>locker in the gym!<BR><BR>My excuse is I've only fought 'blade weapons' with a longsword! Never done <BR>the 'sport' sort of fencing.<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:36:35 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Copyright Laws<BR><BR>Michael Daumen writes:<BR><BR>&gt; The creator of the copyrighted material also benefits, in the form of<BR>&gt; royalties that publisher pays to disseminate the work.&nbsp; The US Constitution<BR>&gt; says that intellectual property rights will "promote the Progress of<BR>&gt; Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and<BR>&gt; Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."<BR><BR>I was sort of merging the writer and the publisher, which is inaccurate.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:45:42 -0600<BR>From: Eris Reddoch &lt;eris@pcola.gulf.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR><BR>Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . . .<BR>&gt; &gt; thank you.<BR><BR>&gt; We've (mostly) forgiven you, Loren :-)<BR><BR>Ha! You know *some* of us actually liked TNE. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; I guess you've never heard Isaac Asomov's story about the time he was<BR>&gt; in a class (or possibly a seinar of some sort) where some litcrit type<BR>&gt; (or possibly literature professor) was going on about one of Asimov's<BR>&gt; books. Isaac put forth an opinion contrary to the prof's regarding the<BR>&gt; author's intent with regards to some plot element. This lead to an<BR>&gt; exchange alone the following lines:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Prof: "And on what do you base *that* conclusion?"<BR>&gt; Asimov: "I wrote the book!"<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Prof: "So? That doesn't mean you know why you did it!"<BR><BR>&gt; When dealing with critics or lit types, you *can't* win.<BR><BR>Reminds me of a story about e e cummings. He was at a party and some<BR>literia started waxing poetic about the political symbolism in one of<BR>cummings' poems. cummings took out a notebook and wrote all of it down.<BR>Later when asked why he paid so much attention to the guy's thoughts,<BR>cummings said, "It's priceless. With a bit of polish, I can turn drivel<BR>like that into a ninety minute lecture suitable for presentation at any<BR>university in the world."...or words to that effect. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Eris<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:54:04 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Who says it has to be the size of the 3I?&nbsp; Who says the democratic<BR>&gt; &gt; mechanisms need to be similar to real world ones?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; By *definition* the mechanisms are rather limited. And when you throw<BR>&gt; in jump lag, democracry *can't* work.<BR><BR>Has anyone tried?&nbsp; And I never said it had to be a *Successful* democratic<BR>revolution.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Member worlds could select Senators based on whatever criteria<BR>&gt; &gt; or government type they want. The length of term of a Senator in<BR>&gt; &gt; the Imperial Senate might be 10, 20 or even 30 years. A President<BR>&gt; &gt; could be elected by the Senate every 10 or so years.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; And that's *not* a democracy. It's a goverment with democractically<BR>&gt; elected representatives. A very different creature.<BR><BR>I only said twice that I wanted a democratic revolution to result in<BR>a federal republic style situation.&nbsp; I can said it a third, err, fourth time.<BR>;-)<BR><BR>&gt; Majority rule sounds great until it's *your* blood the mob is howling for.<BR><BR>Which is why it needs a counter-revolution.&nbsp; :-)<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:55:06 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>&gt;From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "The surface and sub communities are completely different kettles of<BR>&gt;fish.&nbsp; One has to volunteer for sub duty and then go to lots of schools<BR>&gt;and special training."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mr. Harris,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Except for nucs, alas.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I distinctly remember ICs being folded into the EM ranks during my<BR>&gt;tour.&nbsp; The nuc ICs were all ticked off about having to buy new "crows" for<BR>&gt;their uniforms.&nbsp; The one or two DC types had the same squawk.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Are both these rates "hanging on" in the reserve formations?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>Not just hanging on in the reserves. IC techs have been transferred from the<BR>engineering to the combat system group, where they work on electronics,<BR>mostly dealing with things like wind sensors, helo landing systems on small<BR>boys (that's any ship that's not a carrier, but has helos), telephone<BR>systems (all solid state now days) and the like.<BR><BR>The DC rate was re-instituted when the USN realized that every member of the<BR>crew might be responsible for knowing damage control, but somebody needs to<BR>be the expert, who trains everyone else. Most ships have a small cadre of DC<BR>ratings, who give advice to everyone else on the maintenance of damage<BR>control equipment, and act as trainers.<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:02:06 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: fencing<BR><BR>&gt;Mark, at the risk of picking nits, a poignard/poniard is not the same as a<BR>&gt;main gauche. They have different designs and serve different functions.<BR><BR>Not a nit picked.&nbsp; Entirely correct.&nbsp; I was avoiding a detailed scholarly <BR>work until I got home and use my reference books to make sure I spelled the <BR>hard word correctly. :-)<BR><BR>&gt;A poignard is a small thrusting dagger having a blade of square or triangular<BR>&gt;cross-section and no cutting edge per se.&nbsp; As such it is only useful as a<BR>&gt;thrusting weapon.&nbsp; Also, they typically have little or nothing in the way of<BR>&gt;a hilt, making them of little use as a parrying tool.<BR><BR>If I remember correctly, very useful for finishing off Knights in plate armor.<BR>Especially ones recently &amp; violently de-horsed.&nbsp; While they were still <BR>stunned, run up and jam the poignard repeatedly through the cracks in the <BR>joints of the armor &amp; any openings in the helmet.<BR><BR>&gt;The main gauche, OTOH, was designed specifically to be an off-hand<BR>&gt;secondary weapon/parrying tool. The blade is of conventional cross-section<BR>&gt;and is straight and double-edged. The hilt is strong, wide, and frequently<BR>&gt;includes prongs or grooves designed to catch and, potentially, break the<BR>&gt;blade of an opponents weapon. There is also almost always a pommel<BR>&gt;to protect the hand of the wielder.<BR><BR>Yup, I've seen some wild designs for these things.&nbsp; I'll have to check my <BR>copy of Sir Burton's book on swords at home.<BR><BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Opinions should be yours too! - http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>"What's a FAQ? Boy, I wish someone would put a list of answers<BR>for common questions such as this..."<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:04:51 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Copyright Laws<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Michael Daumen writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; The creator of the copyrighted material also benefits, in the form of<BR>&gt; &gt; royalties that publisher pays to disseminate the work.&nbsp; The US Constitution<BR>&gt; &gt; says that intellectual property rights will "promote the Progress of<BR>&gt; &gt; Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and<BR>&gt; &gt; Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I was sort of merging the writer and the publisher, which is inaccurate.<BR><BR>Not necessarily.&nbsp; The right to publish belongs to the author, unless<BR>it's a work made for hire.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:07:31 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Steve (Bloo) Daniels writes:<BR>&gt; Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; By *definition* the mechanisms are rather limited. And when you throw<BR>&gt; &gt; in jump lag, democracry *can't* work.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Has anyone tried?&nbsp; And I never said it had to be a *Successful* democratic<BR>&gt; revolution.<BR><BR>I think the real problem here is that Leonard is assuming 'democracy' is <BR>'direct democracy', which generally doesn't work on any large scale.&nbsp; There's<BR>no theoretical reason why a representative or parliamentary democracy can't<BR>work; obviously, representatives won't be very subject to the short-term<BR>whims of the people who are represented, but that's not necessary in any case.<BR><BR>For a practical interstellar democracy, just look at the Zhodani model, but<BR>let everyone vote, not just the nobles (the Zhodani model is functionally a<BR>representative democracy with limited citizenship).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:18:17 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Paul Harris" &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>To: "'DaveShayne '" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:35 AM<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR><BR>&gt; In one of my campaigns I am presently running in the Solomani Rim after<BR>&gt; the collapse of the Imperium has a political entitiy called the Union of<BR>&gt; Solomani Socialist Republics. (USSR... )<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; It becomes so easy for the players to understand whats going on, that<BR>&gt; is, until they find out that the top echelons of the Party consists<BR>&gt; mainly of humanoid lizards sharing a group mind via a parasitic host.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Just thought I would share...<BR><BR>ROFLMAO<BR><BR>Dave Shayne<BR><BR>"Every day my metal friend<BR>Shakes my bed at 6 AM (Wake up)<BR>Then the shiny servant clones<BR>Running with my telephones."<BR><BR>"Living in the Plastic Age" - Horn/Downes<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:18:36 -0500<BR>From: Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>Subject: [www] 20 Feb 2001 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR><BR>Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has<BR>posted its most recent update to http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and<BR>http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm.&nbsp; <BR><BR>In this update:<BR><BR>- Chapter twelve of _The_Hostile_Stars_, Fred Ramen's ongoing serial<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; story, has been posted to Raconteur's Rest. <BR><BR>- A new section of the Critic's Corner has been opened.&nbsp; You can find<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; five website reviews in LinkLooks.<BR><BR>- Ken Pick presents an analysis of cost-effectiveness of selected<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; starships. Find it in The Shipyard.<BR><BR>- Updates to the Infocenter, Traveller on the Internet - specifically,<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; additional links, plus noting which sites have been reviewed in<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; LinkLooks.<BR><BR>Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance<BR>Traveller.&nbsp; Please write to freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all<BR>of them, as we are in the process of reconfiguring the forms, and they may<BR>be temporarily disabled.&nbsp; Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of<BR>Traveller fans both to visit our site and justify our existence, and to<BR>write for us, making our existence possible.<BR><BR>Freelance Traveller is mirrored at http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz.<BR><BR>Freelance Traveller wishes to extend its thanks and appreciation to The<BR>Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com) and to Executive Network<BR>Information Systems (http://www.execnet.com) for hosting services. Without<BR>organizations willing to cooperate with Freelance Traveller's ever-growing<BR>needs, we would be unable to bring you the articles and other resources<BR>that have made Freelance Traveller one of the premier Traveller sites on<BR>the 'net.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture <BR>Enterprises, 1977-2000.&nbsp; Use of the trademark in <BR>this notice and in the referenced materials is not <BR>intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Jeff Zeitlin, Editor<BR>Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource<BR>http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller<BR>http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm<BR>freelancetraveller@yahoo.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:17:53 -0500<BR>From: "Guy Lemire" &lt;guylemire.associes@videotron.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:27:49 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 17:05, Eamon Patrick Watters wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; GDWGAMES@aol.com sent:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; I'm with you, partner.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; Who spiked the water cooler<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; when they came up with that one!??!<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . .<BR>&gt; . <BR>&gt; thank you.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; And for that alone you have my eternal thanks!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Eamon Watters, TNE Acolyte.<BR><BR>Aye. TNE brought me back to Traveller after a four year departure caused by <BR>irritation with MT. While the RC, Regency and Virus aren't how I would've done <BR>it, they are probably more useful for that - even if I don't use 'em I can mine <BR>them.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:41:15 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 11:39, Pat Connaughton wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,<BR>&gt; better for close in work.<BR><BR>I always preferred an M16 - good from 0 to 400 metres. For longer ranged work a <BR>LSW is nice, they're good from 5 to 600 metres. :)<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:49:19 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,<BR>&gt; &gt; better for close in work.<BR>&gt; Someone with a rapier would have your kidneys for shish-kebab before you<BR>&gt; got close enough to use either.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Someone with a main-gauche and rapier would not only have them but have<BR>&gt; sliced them into nice filets with fava beans and a nice chianti ;-P<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Unfortunately, most of the weapons out there are horribly heavy and<BR>unbalanced.<BR><BR>For what it's worth, thrusting weapons are generally mor lethal than<BR>choppers (e.g. cultlass).&nbsp; The Romans understood this, and used the Gladius<BR>primarily as a thrusting weapon.&nbsp; The same for the Zulu short spear.&nbsp; The<BR>human skeleton is marvelously designed to fend of slashing attacks.<BR><BR>However, it should be pointed out that slashing attacks to the limbs and<BR>neck are very debilitating, provided the weapon is sharp enough to slice<BR>tissue rather thand just producing a nasty pressure cut.<BR><BR>Personally, I favor a nice light infantry sabre :no curve, excellent thrust,<BR>adequate cut and much more difficult to break than a rapier.&nbsp; Another<BR>interesting weapon is the Kolischmarche, which has a foible like a rapier<BR>and a forte like a light sword.&nbsp; This give a very quick weapon which can<BR>parry fairly heavy blades.<BR><BR>Naturally, if you want to get serious in HTH combat, you want to pass on the<BR>swords altogether and go straight to the crushing weapons:&nbsp; Flanged mace,<BR>war hammer, military pick etc.&nbsp; They lack the grace of the blade, but get<BR>the job done.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:49:47 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 14:07, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; For a practical interstellar democracy, just look at the Zhodani model, but let<BR>&gt; everyone vote, not just the nobles (the Zhodani model is functionally a<BR>&gt; representative democracy with limited citizenship).<BR><BR>Which makes it a fairly broad oligarchy. A democracy, BTW, is just a really <BR>broad oligarchy.<BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:49:47 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 20:32, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Gee, just like unrestricted submarine warfare, poison gas, dropping <BR>&gt; bombs from aircraft, shotguns, dum-dums, and a few others items.<BR><BR>Dum-dums, and (I think) shotguns are banned under the various Hague conventions <BR>(pre-WWI), not the Geneva conventions (which the USA never ratified, BTW).<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:52:09 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>&gt; "Other "off hand" blades included things like:<BR>&gt; 1) a very large guard to protect the hand,<BR>&gt; 2) extra 'trapping' blades (usually two, set at 45 degrees from the<BR>&gt; main blade, allowing you to trap a foe's blade in the manner of a Juite<BR>&gt; or Sai).<BR>&gt; 3) A heavy cloak was also often used as an off hand weapon.&nbsp; It's used<BR>&gt; not only to stop the blade, but also to trap/entangle it and to distract<BR>&gt; your foe."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Looks like there's quite a bit of reading left to do justice to<BR>dueling<BR>&gt; in my Land Grab entry.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks again!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>If you can find a copy, check out "cut and thrust weapons".&nbsp; Also, Sir<BR>Richard Burton's "Book of the Sword" is interesting, and available in<BR>reprinted form.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:57:49 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Foils are *only* used in sport fencing, and started out as a practice<BR>&gt; &gt; weapon for epee training. They are *totally* unsuitable for duel of the<BR>&gt; &gt; sort described, especially when "long daggers" are being used in the<BR>&gt; &gt; off hand. Foils are just too easy to *break* if blocked by that dagger.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; At least the above is what my friends who fence told me.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Yes, foils started as training weapons.&nbsp; I would think it possible a<BR>&gt; weapon of similar shape (length and thinness of blade) that could be<BR>&gt; made with [more advanced/different] materials (I forget the TL of Lehar<BR>&gt; if it was mentioned).&nbsp; It could be faster than the heavier epee and<BR>&gt; still have some decent penetration if so stiffened.<BR><BR>Actually, the foil was quite a popular dueling weapon, particularly in<BR>France in the late 19th century.&nbsp; Many of the duels over the Dreyfus-Pickard<BR>affair were fought with foils.<BR><BR>Interestingly, the use of the dagger or main gauche fell out of favor with<BR>the development of the modern lunge. Two weapon fencing requies a more open<BR>guard position and limits lunge length.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3715<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-ye01.mx.aol.com (rly-ye01.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.198]) by air-ye05.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:00:07 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:59:15 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA17664;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:57:19 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:57:11 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA17629<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:57:11 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:57:11 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102202257.RAA17629@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3715<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 20 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3716<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: Don't run...<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>re: fencing<BR>Re: En Garde<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: fencing<BR>re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: A Lucky Find?<BR>Re: fencing<BR>TML Legal Dream Team<BR>Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR>Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)<BR>Re: FAR TRADER<BR>Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR>Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)<BR>Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)<BR>Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:08:46 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>&gt; The main gauche, OTOH, was designed specifically to be an off-hand<BR>&gt; secondary weapon/parrying tool. <BR><BR>Hence the name "left hand", as opposed to main droite or "right hand"<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:01:59 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;On 20 Feb 2001, at 11:39, Pat Connaughton wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,<BR>&gt; &gt; better for close in work.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I always preferred an M16 - good from 0 to 400 metres. For longer ranged <BR>&gt;work a<BR>&gt;LSW is nice, they're good from 5 to 600 metres. :)<BR><BR>Ah, yes. Reminds me of the bad ol' days at MCRD. The DI is demonstrating<BR>the proper thrust/recover for bayonet work.<BR><BR>DI: "In the event that your bayonet becomes lodged in the body of<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; your opponent, a simple discharge of your weapon is usually<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; sufficient to dislodge the blade."<BR><BR>Recruit: "Ah, Gunnery Sgt.&nbsp; If I'm still capable of discharging my weapon,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; there ain't gonna *BE* no bayonet combat!!"<BR><BR>The rest of the class went downhill from there.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:07:56 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;For what it's worth, thrusting weapons are generally mor lethal than<BR>&gt;choppers (e.g. cultlass).&nbsp; The Romans understood this, and used the Gladius<BR>&gt;primarily as a thrusting weapon.&nbsp; The same for the Zulu short spear.<BR><BR>That would be the Assegai.&nbsp; Ask the British foot soldiers defending Rourkes<BR>Drift about that one. :^)<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; The human skeleton is marvelously designed to fend of slashing attacks.<BR><BR>Well, up to a point.&nbsp; A blade that is heavy enough (and sharp enough)<BR>is plenty efficient at removing limbs (and heads), as any Samurai can<BR>attest.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:22:59 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Don't run...<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>To: "Traveller Mail List" &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 1:15 PM<BR>Subject: Don't run...<BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; What is that they say on the c-130 gunships "Don't run away, you'll<BR>only<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt; die tired"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This is more commonly a line used by snipers (predominantly USMC, since<BR>&gt; they are far superior to the other branches of service, right Doug?)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Other quotes include "Reach out and touch someone" and "Sniper: the next<BR>&gt; best thing to being there."<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>It should be noted that army snipers in Viet Nam actually racked up a larger<BR>number of kills, on average, per sniper.<BR><BR>Also, unlike a sniper, an AC130 spectre is good for a grid square.<BR>Personally, I like the idea of an airborn 105mm cannon.<BR><BR>For a bit of humorous ac-130 commentary, see:<BR>http://formen.ign.com/news/23791.html<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:18:15 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The only real way to put an end to this is for the military to begin<BR>&gt;paying you by the job you do and not strictly by the bit of cloth on your<BR>&gt;arm.&nbsp; Then the wedge of unearned rank would be removed.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Fat chance of the trilobytes in the Pentagon agreeing to that one.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;OBTrav - Would there be jobs in the IN that due to their technical or<BR>&gt;dangerous natures might be paid more than other ranks?&nbsp; Rather than pay<BR>&gt;these rates more, would the IN resort to a draft?&nbsp; How would the IN deal<BR>&gt;with the problem inherent when you pay a mop jockey and a spinal weapons<BR>&gt;tech the same pay?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>&gt;_________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt;Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>I would agree with Mr. Whipsnade that the military pay system as practiced<BR>in the U.S. military is broken. Unfortunately the ranking system in canon,<BR>as presented in CT, is based upon the American Navy, with Petty Officers and<BR>CPO's even delineated in E-1 to E-9 paygrades. The chances of this being<BR>fixed in GT:IN is probably small.<BR><BR>Part of the problem is the duality present in the military concept of rank.<BR>An Electronic Technician First Class is not only suppose to be an expert in<BR>the equipment he(she) works on, capable of supervising the technicians under<BR>him(her) in the repair and maintenance of equipment, training the<BR>technicians working for him(her) so that they advance, not only in rank, but<BR>also in technical skill; but the ET1 is also a PO1 who is responsible for<BR>the general cleanliness of the spaces assign to his people, the discipline<BR>of the sailors junior to him(her), and quite possibly in a position of<BR>authority over members of other specialties, some of whom might be more<BR>technically competent in their own specialties.<BR><BR>The Navy (and other services) have a real problem coping with the idea that<BR>they might have to pay a PO3 the same as a PO1 because (s)he is more<BR>intelligent, highly trained and competent in a difficult specialty. The<BR>lower paid PO1's resent the idea because they perform military duties<BR>outside their specialty that require a more mature, disciplined outlook, and<BR>they have mastered skills which may have no use outside the military, but<BR>are vital for continued war fighting capability. The army wrestled with this<BR>problem by splitting their technical people into Spec ranks. The problem was<BR>that when an officer goes up to a group of people milling about that officer<BR>doesn't want to hear from the Spec that they may be a E-6, but its not their<BR>job to make sure the troops fall into ranks and salute. So the army made the<BR>specs sergeants again, so it would be their job.<BR><BR>ObTrav: What I'd like to see happen is very un-conical. Keep the High Guard<BR>Branches. It's very much not Yanks in Space and makes more sense in my<BR>opinion. In the USN officers working in technical specialties are heavily<BR>dependent on their CPO's, warrants and Limited Duty Officers. Just get the<BR>Line Officers out of the technical end all together. Command is command and<BR>these guys should be specializing in war fighting.<BR><BR>For enlisted spacers reduce the number of Petty Officer ratings to a small<BR>number. CPO's should have even fewer ratings. Instead of having Gravitics<BR>Technicians Third Class, Second Class, First Class, Chief, Senior Chief,<BR>Master Chief, broaden it out at the top. Have GT3, GT2, GT1. When the spacer<BR>makes CPO they're expected to have increased their mastery of engineering,<BR>so you might have a Chief Spacecraft Systems Techincian.<BR><BR>Warrants should fill many of the senior technical slots. These people will<BR>come from the ranks and will fill many of the non-command officer slots.<BR>This makes sense to me given the Traveller feudal background. Not many Dukes<BR>sons and daughters who are Marquis(Marques?) are going to want to be grease<BR>monkeys. They'll go into the line positions. Most of the technical slots<BR>will be filled by ex-enlisted. (That's what those NOTC slots are for.) There<BR>are no reasons that pay locks to rank exclusively. The Russians, for<BR>example, paid a ship's CO based on the size and type of the command. They<BR>also received more pay that equivalent officers not in a position of<BR>command, etc.<BR><BR>The ranking system would no long be fully locked in with the army, but so<BR>what. That is a relic of the uniform pay system that we, in the U.S. use to<BR>simplify things for congress and the bean counters.<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:29:54 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>&gt; Dum-dums, and (I think) shotguns are banned under the various Hague<BR>conventions<BR>&gt; (pre-WWI), not the Geneva conventions (which the USA never ratified, BTW).<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>IIRC, shotguns are not specifically banned.&nbsp; However, the German government<BR>complained that the US use of shotguns violated the ban on weapons designed<BR>to cause undue suffering.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:25:44 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: fencing<BR><BR>&gt;Personally, I favor a nice light infantry sabre :no curve, excellent thrust,<BR>&gt;adequate cut and much more difficult to break than a rapier.&nbsp; Another<BR>&gt;interesting weapon is the Kolischmarche, which has a foible like a rapier<BR>&gt;and a forte like a light sword.&nbsp; This give a very quick weapon which can<BR>&gt;parry fairly heavy blades.<BR><BR>One of my goals is to get a 1911 "Patton" sabre.<BR>No curve, big sturdy bell guard.<BR><BR>Last combat sword issued in the US Army.&nbsp; Designed by a young officer by <BR>the name of George S. Patton, Jr.<BR><BR><BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was<BR>burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.<BR>That's our story and we're sticking to it.&nbsp; http://www.bigfoott.com/~urbin/<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:30:39 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde<BR><BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>"Mon freres,<BR><BR>I fear we have no choice. We can, nay, must free France from the tyrrany <BR>that is the lazy, corrupt<BR>Jansenists that have the King in their thrall.<BR><BR>Oh, and that coat, m'sieur it is c'est bon.<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>PS I know it is OT, but I feel we have no choice but to start an En Garde <BR>PBEM. Who is reffing ?<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Whitchurch,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I'm game and perhaps, thanks to my prematurely aged hair color, I could <BR>be the (shudder) Grey Eminence.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; More to the point, who's got the rules?<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen E. Whipsnade &lt;twirling an oily mustache, in a dark cape)<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:32:23 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; The human skeleton is marvelously designed to fend of slashing attacks.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Well, up to a point.&nbsp; A blade that is heavy enough (and sharp enough)<BR>&gt; is plenty efficient at removing limbs (and heads), as any Samurai can<BR>&gt; attest.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>True, but technically a katana or wakazashi is really a big knife from the<BR>standpoint of construction.&nbsp; Axes work well, too, BTW.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:39:55 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>&gt; Ah, yes. Reminds me of the bad ol' days at MCRD. The DI is demonstrating<BR>&gt; the proper thrust/recover for bayonet work.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; DI: "In the event that your bayonet becomes lodged in the body of<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; your opponent, a simple discharge of your weapon is usually<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; sufficient to dislodge the blade."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Recruit: "Ah, Gunnery Sgt.&nbsp; If I'm still capable of discharging my weapon,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; there ain't gonna *BE* no bayonet combat!!"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The rest of the class went downhill from there.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>When I went through Infantry OSUT (basic and AIT) at Ft Benning in 1980,<BR>they didn't even have bayonet training.&nbsp; Bayonets were for opening C-rat<BR>cases or scaring civilians. Even during the Napoleonic and US civil wars,<BR>bayonets were rarely used (at least according to the number of bayonet<BR>wounds recorded by field surgeons).<BR><BR>Personally, If I'm going to carry a big knife, I'd rather have a nice<BR>fighter like a Randall #1, Al Mare SERE, Terzoula or the like.&nbsp; Something<BR>sharp and actually useful.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:40:42 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>Thanks for your comments, Rob.&nbsp; I don't think that the RoM Terrans would<BR>have any difficulty in making themselves into an hereditary nobility.&nbsp; The<BR>Ziru Sirka, remember, had a hereditary noble class, so the environment in<BR>which the Terran and later Rule of Man military governors found themselves<BR>already contained a working model.&nbsp; Also, Terrans will still have many<BR>remants of hereditary nobility (and I'm not talking about Dubya) by the<BR>time of the conquest.&nbsp; For example, some of the major powers have monarchs<BR>who trace their lineage back hundreds, if not thousands, of years; England<BR>and Japan come immediately to mind.&nbsp; <BR><BR>The situation in the Rule of Man and Long Night eras is not dissimilar<BR>from Europe in the Dark Ages (not unintentionally, I would think).&nbsp; The<BR>Roman Empire had placed military governors to rule over the various<BR>barbarians from Spain to Britain to Germany to Palestine.&nbsp; As Rome<BR>collapsed, many military governors continued to manage defense and<BR>economic relations.&nbsp; Their powers had been established by law and the<BR>Roman army.&nbsp; As Rome fell, they kept their positions out of custom -- and<BR>political astuteness.&nbsp; By the end of the Middle Ages, custom became law as<BR>stronger central governments were formed with kings at the head of larger<BR>regions, and the kings recognized the rights of the nobility.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>- --- Rob Davenport &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; Ah, very nice post, Glenn. Thanks.&nbsp; I'd forgotten about the ZS<BR>&gt; in my earlier brain dead posting.&nbsp; I think I recall reading about<BR>&gt; the Rule of Man military governors taking on a kind of nobility<BR>&gt; (inheriting the powers of the ZS bureaux when necessary to work with<BR>&gt; the local conservative vilani population).&nbsp; <BR>&gt; My question now is, would the Rule of Man terrans have really created a<BR>&gt; nobility after years on Earth without them (effectively)?&nbsp; It may not<BR>&gt; be a good question and I'm probably missing some things, but that's <BR>&gt; what's rattling in my brain before I go home... :)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Rob D.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On 20 Feb 2001, at 12:20, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Date sent:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:20:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>&gt; From:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>&gt; To:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; traveller mailing aa list &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Send reply to:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I know Loren is writing a book on the Imperial Nobles, but <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;perhaps we can spark his creative juices (as if he needed that right?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&lt;wink&gt;) by asking questions or putting forth ideas on how we see the <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;institution for our own traveller universes...<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Here is my Cr0.02:<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; The nobility did not spring fully formed from the mind of Zeus.&nbsp; It is<BR>&gt; the<BR>&gt; &gt; product of a very long history (on the order of 10,000 years).&nbsp; The<BR>&gt; Ziru<BR>&gt; &gt; Sirka had a hereditary management class, which was essentially a<BR>&gt; nobility.<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; The Terrans conquered the Ziru Sirka and placed military governors<BR>&gt; with<BR>&gt; &gt; small forces over the various worlds and regions of the Ziru Sirka. <BR>&gt; Far<BR>&gt; &gt; from home and without orders for long periods of time, these military<BR>&gt; &gt; governors chose their own successors, eventually establishing<BR>&gt; hereditary<BR>&gt; &gt; offices.&nbsp; When the Rule of Man was established, it confirmed and to<BR>&gt; some<BR>&gt; &gt; extent regulated this practice and thus created the first official<BR>&gt; &gt; post-Vilani nobility.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; The Rule of Man collapsed into the Long Night.&nbsp; Many nobles continued<BR>&gt; to<BR>&gt; &gt; rule as they had before.&nbsp; Some new ones created themselves in the<BR>&gt; chaos. <BR>&gt; &gt; The Ziru Sirkan nobility had never been suppressed de jure, only de<BR>&gt; facto<BR>&gt; &gt; and then only partially.&nbsp; It was able to reassert itself, especially<BR>&gt; in<BR>&gt; &gt; Vland sector, during the Long Night.<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; When Cleon started the Third Imperium, he generally preserved the<BR>&gt; status<BR>&gt; &gt; quo, thus bringing the existing nobility of annexed regions into his<BR>&gt; camp,<BR>&gt; &gt; and aiding his conquest of this region of space.&nbsp; He also created a<BR>&gt; large<BR>&gt; &gt; number of new nobles, in order to create a faction that would be even<BR>&gt; more<BR>&gt; &gt; loyal to him and would outnumber the existing Ziru Sirkan and Terran<BR>&gt; &gt; nobility.<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; By 1100, a bewildering mix of titles, powers, fiefs, and heraldry<BR>&gt; &gt; characterizes the state of the nobility.&nbsp; It is a perfect setting for<BR>&gt; &gt; role-playing.<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; --Glenn<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; __________________________________________________<BR>&gt; &gt; Do You Yahoo!?<BR>&gt; &gt; Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 <BR>&gt; &gt; a year!&nbsp; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Rob<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 'The whole principle is wrong; it's like demanding that grown men live<BR>&gt; on skim milk because the baby can't eat steak.'<BR>&gt; - author Robert A. Heinlein on censorship.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:36:39 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mr. Carlino,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; No offense taken sir, because I completely agree with every point in<BR>&gt;your post!&nbsp; Looking back at myself and my peers from over 15 years in the<BR>&gt;future makes me wince.&nbsp; We were brash, insufferable, little SOBs, given<BR>rank<BR>&gt;simply as a way of boosting our pay.&nbsp; Because we didn't earn the rank, we<BR>&gt;had no respect for it.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As a 24 year old, I was an enlisted man standing watch as an enlisted<BR>&gt;officer of the watch, training newly arrived officers, and being asked<BR>about<BR>&gt;the suitability as to their qualifications for watch officer.&nbsp; Is it any<BR>&gt;wonder that the niceties of military discipline and rank were lost to me?<BR>&gt;Or why the opinions of a man ten years my senior, but my junior in rank,<BR>&gt;were automatically dismissed?&nbsp; Callow isn't a strong enough word to<BR>describe<BR>&gt;our behavior.&nbsp; We were horrible little bastards.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As the military is forced to handle more and more technical duties,<BR>&gt;determining pay rates without taking into account the actual job being<BR>&gt;performed is asinine.&nbsp; We already pay pilots, divers, demo experts more,<BR>way<BR>&gt;not the hard to fill tech rates?&nbsp; Heck, why not ALL hard to fill rates<BR>more?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; The USN has far too many typewriter bangers and cooks, but far too few<BR>&gt;bosuns.&nbsp; Might "bosun pay" entice a few more into the rate?&nbsp; The Army could<BR>&gt;use the same device to flesh out it's infantry ranks.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>as a somewhat interesting aside: When I was preparing to get out, a<BR>subcontractor we had on board was describing the hardships that existed in<BR>the job market for a retired CPO. According to him there were just no jobs<BR>to be had that paid as much as being on active duty. Of course he was a Mess<BR>Specialist, which meant that he was doing a job that is often performed by<BR>young people in their mid-twenties (as are most McD's managers.) He was a<BR>sales rep for one of the galley suppliers. He couldn't conceive of the fact<BR>that an ex-nuc, qualified as an Engineer Watch Officer (On steam and Gas<BR>Turbines), who also managed to get a BS while on active duty, might be able<BR>to find a job with a salary higher than an E-8 without great difficulty.<BR>Basically very few people outside the military get the pay of a Chief Mess<BR>Specialist, Yeoman or Personnel Specialist for doing the same job. Very few<BR>Chief Electronic Technicians, Electricians, or any of the computer specialty<BR>ratings make as little as they do in the military doing the same job. Just<BR>more proof of your point.<BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:42:07 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>&gt;&gt; Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>&gt;&gt; Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;It's not working. I want my money/soul/whatever back.<BR><BR>You're probably not doing it right.&nbsp; It works best over the telephone.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:44:59 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; One of my goals is to get a 1911 "Patton" sabre.<BR>&gt; No curve, big sturdy bell guard.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Last combat sword issued in the US Army.&nbsp; Designed by a young officer by<BR>&gt; the name of George S. Patton, Jr.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Well, I see these from time to time.&nbsp; My personal favorite issue is the<BR>British 1822 light infantry sabre.&nbsp; Nice and straight and I love the ray<BR>skin grips. Now if we're mounted, I choose a naice Austrian cuirassers<BR>Palasch.<BR><BR>Anyone looking for swords and such should also check out American Fencers<BR>Supply (on Folsum street in San Francisco).&nbsp; They have some nice theatrical<BR>pieces with decent blades.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:51:33 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: TML Legal Dream Team<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Michael Daumen" &lt;daumen@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;TML Legal Dream Team.&nbsp; Yeah.&nbsp; I like it.<BR><BR>Have you been defrauded in connection with the purchase or sale of<BR>megacorporate securities?<BR><BR>Have your inventions been stolen and turned into profit without your<BR>consent (and without a royalty)?<BR><BR>Have you been injured by exposure to unshielded gravitic components?<BR><BR>Call the TML Legal Dream Team LIC.&nbsp; We'll get your money.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:55:59 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR><BR>I was lucky enough to meet John and his lovely bride when they came to see<BR>the United States some time back (Danie says Hi John and Alison!).&nbsp; In any<BR>event, he was kind enough to bring with him, a recent copy of En Guarde...<BR><BR>&nbsp; Problem is, I haven't the slightest clue on how to run a play by email<BR>campaign like that.&nbsp; Hell, I'm having problems trying to figure out how to<BR>bring FAR TRADER to the computer for long term use.&nbsp; I just realized that<BR>the size of the database now has to utilize 400+ records, each with 1200<BR>elements (hex ID along with Average Trade Volume and Average Passenger<BR>Volume)!<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>Come Hell or High water, that book is gonna fit into that blasted program!<BR>(and no, it isn't come Hal or high water either...)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:51:05 -0600<BR>From: Terry Mixon &lt;tmixon@ghg.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Hello Terry,<BR><BR>Hi Hal,<BR><BR>Sorry for the delay but work has been busy with the shuttle mission up.<BR><BR>&gt; As you are willing to do revisions &lt;evil grin&gt;...<BR><BR>Evil man...<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; In general, I would have thought that the faster services would be able<BR>&gt; to charge more money for the speed bonus.&nbsp; In short, how would you resolve<BR>&gt; the problem I've set before you? &lt;grin&gt; (no fair saying "I won't do a<BR>&gt; thing, bleh...")<BR><BR>I believe the cost of shipping is limited by Imperial Law.<BR><BR>If I am wrong, someone will tell me... &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Terry<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:54:37 -0600<BR>From: Terry Mixon &lt;tmixon@ghg.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: FAR TRADER<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; As I see it now, there is no real difference between the 11 parsec<BR>&gt; distance as measured by straight distance and the ship jumping.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; On the other hand, I suppose that one could take a J shaped path to reach a<BR>&gt; destination.&nbsp; It would be 6 parsecs by the map, yet 11 parsecs by the "J"<BR>&gt; journy.&nbsp; However, that raises a new issue.&nbsp; Suppose you have two stars on a<BR>&gt; spinward main.&nbsp; A portion of the Spinward Main makes a "C" shape.&nbsp; As it<BR>&gt; turns out however, a Jump 3 ship can make the transit in one jump.&nbsp; (Note:<BR>&gt; example taken from 1927 to 2125 on Spinward marches map)&nbsp; Is this a world<BR>&gt; that is considered to be 6 parsecs away (for jump 1 ships) or 3 parsecs<BR>&gt; away for jump 3 ships?<BR><BR>You have the right of it.<BR><BR>A path may wander from the straight line.<BR><BR>Since you are allowed, by the trade rules, to use J-3 ships away from a x-boat<BR>route or higher jump ships on the x-boat route, you would consider it a single<BR>J-3 route.<BR><BR>Terry<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:00:35 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Problem is, I haven't the slightest clue on how to run a play by email<BR>&gt; campaign like that.&nbsp; Hell, I'm having problems trying to figure out how to<BR>&gt; bring FAR TRADER to the computer for long term use.&nbsp; I just realized that<BR>&gt; the size of the database now has to utilize 400+ records, each with 1200<BR>&gt; elements (hex ID along with Average Trade Volume and Average Passenger<BR>&gt; Volume)!<BR><BR>Ah, must be using a small subset ;).&nbsp; My trade routes program runs on a data set of around 27,000 worlds.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:00:19 -0600<BR>From: Terry Mixon &lt;tmixon@ghg.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)<BR><BR>JR Holmes wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; That's exactly the sort of software that a functional trader would<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; want to have running on his ship's computer.&nbsp; But that is just the<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; basic version of the software.&nbsp; Later versions would include a way of<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; indexing those jumps cross-indexed by the cost of jump fuel as<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; reported on each stop's fuel status reports for other planets.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;As well as what commodities were avalable and which were in demand, so<BR>&gt; &gt;he could trade along the way.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Well, that would make it just too easy.&nbsp; If all merchants used that<BR>&gt; software exclusively, they certainly wouldn't feel like a "free<BR>&gt; trader", they'd end up taking all their cargo instructions from their<BR>&gt; routing program.&nbsp; I would rather keep my merchant owners looking at<BR>&gt; the program results and then using their own intuition to vary from<BR>&gt; that optimal route in order to take a plum cargo to that planet just a<BR>&gt; single jump detour away.<BR><BR>Imagine the hoopla if a hacker deleted juicy spots trade info and<BR>inserted non interesting trade info? Talk about sewing up the competition.<BR><BR>Terry<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:05:07 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)<BR><BR>Terry Mixon writes:<BR><BR>&gt; I believe the cost of shipping is limited by Imperial Law.<BR><BR>While it's quite possible there are price caps, I think the evidence is that<BR>the Imperium prefers to limit prices by creating low-cost subsidized merchants,<BR>which mostly caps the cost of slow transport.&nbsp; Fast transit either (a) can<BR>charge what the market will bear, or (b) doesn't exist (if regulated to the<BR>point of being unprofitable, it just won't exist at all).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:04:06 -0600<BR>From: Terry Mixon &lt;tmixon@ghg.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Terry Mixon writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I believe the cost of shipping is limited by Imperial Law.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; While it's quite possible there are price caps, I think the evidence is that<BR>&gt; the Imperium prefers to limit prices by creating low-cost subsidized merchants,<BR>&gt; which mostly caps the cost of slow transport.&nbsp; Fast transit either (a) can<BR>&gt; charge what the market will bear, or (b) doesn't exist (if regulated to the<BR>&gt; point of being unprofitable, it just won't exist at all).<BR><BR>See, I told you that someone would set me right.<BR><BR>Thanks Anthony.<BR><BR>Terry<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3716<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 20 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3717<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug<BR>Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR>Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR>Re: En Garde<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)<BR>Re: En Garde<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707<BR>Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR>Re: HTML gibberish<BR>Re: En Garde &amp; Imperial Court<BR>RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR>Re: En garde<BR>Re: Ohhh Ohh Ohhh<BR>RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR>RE: HTML gibberish<BR>RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR>Shrieker World<BR>Re: HTML gibberish<BR>Trevor Asked<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707<BR>Re: TNE or not NE<BR>Re: Copyright<BR>FFE 004<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: FFE 004<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:13:53 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Basically very few people outside the military get the pay of a Chief <BR>Mess Specialist, Yeoman or Personnel Specialist for doing the same job. Very <BR>few Chief Electronic Technicians, Electricians, or any of the computer <BR>specialty ratings make as little as they do in the military doing the same <BR>job. Just more proof of your point."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Carlino,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Less than 2 months before my discharge, I was ordered to attend a <BR>"Dollars and Sense" rentention lecture given by our new CO, an O-6.&nbsp; He'd <BR>come up with this approach, along with the title, and had actually been <BR>congratulated by some higher ups for doing so.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The biggest problem facing his new command, and thus his prospect of a <BR>blemish free career, was the fact that 28 E-5 and E-6 nucs were getting out <BR>in the 100 days prior to his first WestPac.&nbsp; Add a few junior eng officers <BR>and things get real tricky.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; He crammed us all into a classroom and went through his schtick.&nbsp; I had <BR>the misfortune of arrving early and had been tapped to "man" the lightswitch <BR>for his slide show.&nbsp; When he baldly asserted that our racks in berthing were <BR>the equivalent of a single bedroom apartment, the look on all the faces was <BR>indescribable.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Have you ever seen the Mel Brooks movie "The Producers"?&nbsp; There's a <BR>scene in which the Broadway premier audience of this new musical has just <BR>been exposed to the opening number of "Springtime for Hitler".&nbsp; IN the <BR>stunned silence, Borrks pans the camera very slowly across their faces.&nbsp; <BR>That's the same thing I saw.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:17:24 -0600<BR>From: Terry Mixon &lt;tmixon@ghg.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug<BR><BR>Ian or Katts wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; BTW, Terry Mixon did a complete map of the Spinward Marches' trade routes - if you plug 'I am<BR>&gt; looking for Terry Mixon's trade map of the Spinward Marches' into your favorite search engine, then<BR>&gt; you should find a link.<BR><BR>Yep. 50,000,000 of them. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Try<BR><BR>http://www.ghg.net/tmixon/Trade<BR><BR>Thanks Ian.<BR><BR>Terry<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:26:35 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR><BR>At 04:00 PM 2/20/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Problem is, I haven't the slightest clue on how to run a play by email<BR>&gt;&gt; campaign like that.&nbsp; Hell, I'm having problems trying to figure out how to<BR>&gt;&gt; bring FAR TRADER to the computer for long term use.&nbsp; I just realized that<BR>&gt;&gt; the size of the database now has to utilize 400+ records, each with 1200<BR>&gt;&gt; elements (hex ID along with Average Trade Volume and Average Passenger<BR>&gt;&gt; Volume)!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Ah, must be using a small subset ;).&nbsp; My trade routes program runs on a<BR>data set of around 27,000 worlds.<BR><BR>Wise guy ehhhhhhhhh?<BR><BR>look at the ground, look at the ground!&nbsp; Whup whup whoo whhoooooo<BR><BR>(obtrav: those hivers sure like the three stooges don't they?)<BR><BR>In any event, the description above means I have to *add* another data base<BR>I wasn't counting on &lt;sigh&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:37:00 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR><BR>Jeff Greenly wrote :-<BR>&lt;Describes violent volcanic pre-conditions&gt;<BR>&gt; I am especially interested in weather conditions.<BR>Temperature drops due to the suspended ejecta have been talked about.<BR>I don't know what sort of climate you're shooting for, so you may want to<BR>limit this effect.<BR>Ignoring particulates, your list of gases includes 2 very potent greenhouse<BR>ones (CO2/SO2). These will limit any fall in average temperatures in the<BR>long run.<BR><BR>The sky will look orange-reddish rather than blue due to scattering of<BR>sunlight from the suspended ash.<BR><BR>The effect on rainfall will be driven by cooling effects rather than<BR>particle nucleation per se. The pH of the rain will be lower in and around<BR>the fallout plumes of the volcanoes (e.g. dissolved sulphuric acid). This<BR>will have effects on plant life, soil and ground water quality (and even the<BR>pH and salinity of the oceans, if large enough). Erosion will be<BR>accelerated, but the local geology may well compensate for this, given the<BR>volcanic activity.<BR><BR>Thunderstorms, etc. are less likely in the long term as the transfer of heat<BR>energy from the atmosphere to the ocean is reduced (more reflected into<BR>space by the dust). It looks like there will eventually be positive feedback<BR>effects on climate once ocean circulation changes if the dust levels in the<BR>atmosphere persist. In other words, things could continue to get colder and<BR>colder until everything freezes over. As I've written above, though, the<BR>CO2/SO2 in the atmosphere will put brakes on this (but it might not be<BR>enough)...<BR><BR>If the surface temperature isn't too cold, frequent smogs are likely in<BR>susceptible areas. These will pose a hazard to life not adapted to<BR>particulate/sulphate/etc. rich atmospheres.<BR><BR>Another factor to consider is why the world is so volcanically active in the<BR>first place (young/radioactive rich/tidal stress?). There is potential for<BR>'colour' there.<BR><BR>Hal@buffnet.net wrote :-<BR>&gt; What mechanism brings the dust from the Stratosphere down to lower<BR>&gt; levels? I suspect &lt;sheepish grin&gt; that it is gravity - but what keeps<BR>&gt; it up there in defiance of gravity?<BR>The dust is very fine.<BR>It behaves like a well shaken mixture of sand in water, say. Random<BR>collisions between the molecules of the fluid and the other particles slow<BR>the descent.<BR>Precipitation is slowed because the atmosphere is being continuously<BR>'stirred' by temperature differentials and the rotation of the Earth,<BR>leading to the movement of air masses.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer, amateur rockhead<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:24:27 +1000<BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde<BR><BR>From: Ian Whitchurch<BR>&gt; PS I know it is OT, but I feel we have no choice but to start an En Garde<BR>&gt; PBEM. Who is reffing ?<BR><BR>Marvellous.&nbsp; Just when I was about to have to shut down my email account,<BR>someone starts writing things like this.&nbsp; Of course it wouldn't happen a<BR>year ago, would it?<BR><BR>Alan Bradley<BR>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:38:05 +1000<BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>&gt; From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>&gt; First off, I don't see the Imperial Nobles as being individuals entrusted<BR>&gt; with powers of absolute control.&nbsp; <BR>&lt;rest snipped&gt;<BR><BR>A lot depends on how you see the nobility.&nbsp; There are two main schools of<BR>thought as to what the nobility is.<BR><BR>One is that the nobility is created from above.&nbsp; That is, they are the<BR>agents of the Imperium/Emperor, interacting with Imperial member worlds in<BR>a manner something like diplomats.<BR><BR>The other is that the nobility are the local elites of the imperial worlds<BR>and corporations, given titles and funny hats to wear.&nbsp; In this model,<BR>Delphine of Mora is a Duchess because she rules Mora.&nbsp; She doesn't rule<BR>Mora because she is a Duchess.<BR><BR>Of course, in both models, it is possible to be made a noble for "services<BR>rendered", but the nobles with real clout tend to have solid power bases,<BR>whether "geographical", corporate, bureaucratic or military, and usually<BR>the possession of such power bases is the basis for them (or their<BR>ancestors) becoming nobles in the first place.<BR><BR>So many, if not most, nobles have real power, independent of the Imperium<BR>as such.<BR><BR>Alan Bradley<BR>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:29:42 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)<BR><BR>Terry Mixon writes:<BR><BR>&gt; See, I told you that someone would set me right.<BR><BR>Well, this is the subject of intermittent flame wars.&nbsp; 'Imperial Regulation'<BR>is a favorite of people who like the CT cargo cost rules (cost is per dton<BR>per jump).&nbsp; It has the disadvantage of making zero economic sense.<BR><BR>Approximate costs per dton per jump and per parsec, for various speeds, using<BR>2,000 ton USL cargo ships<BR>J1: 390/jump, 390/parsec<BR>J2: 630/jump, 315/parsec<BR>J3: 960/jump, 320/parsec<BR>J4: 1,480/jump, 370/parsec<BR>J5: 2,300/jump, 460/parsec.&nbsp; Exchange rates boost this to 700/parsec.<BR>J6: 3,250/jump, 540/parsec.&nbsp; Exchange rates boost this to 1600/parsec.<BR><BR>Obviously, most cargo will be J2 or J3, though J4 isn't a bad deal (it will<BR>probably be a bit higher cost due to lower volume, and realistically there<BR>should be exchange rate differences between TL C and TL D).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:32 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;F108XrRjbDt3HvoFOAm00000ccb@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>PBeM EN GARDE? <BR><BR>Nice idea... to keep it vaguely on-topic, why not set it in the Imperial <BR>Court?<BR><BR>A brief search has so far failed to reveal my copy of the rules :-(<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:32:17 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707<BR><BR>&gt; Sorry, Loren.&nbsp; I started this.<BR><BR>Actually, it was the "Who spiked the water cooler" remark I took issue with. <BR>I don't object to people liking or not liking anything I've written, and I <BR>don't object to them telling me or others about their dislikes. I _am_ a <BR>little irritated by ad hominem remarks indicating that we were <BR>drunk/stoned/otherwise-impaired when we wrote whatever it was . . .<BR><BR>And I don't much like people saying I should be set on fire either, like a <BR>previous offender.<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:43:35 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR><BR>Hello Robert,<BR>&nbsp; Thanks for the info in response to my question.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:39:56 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: HTML gibberish<BR><BR>Gentles<BR><BR>Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's? (just to <BR>pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any special steps to <BR>prevent it. <BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:46:57 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde &amp; Imperial Court<BR><BR>Hello Mexal,<BR>&nbsp; Doesn't your comment almost sound a bit like a Pocket Empires En Garde mix?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:39:43 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>&gt;In-Reply-To: &lt;10219.235836.4z5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Greetings dear hearts, especially Leonard.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Thanks for that thought... I'll go upstairs and ask my dearly beloved, who<BR>&gt;used to be a fencer.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Erm. Maybe they call them foils but they are actually a bit more robust<BR>&gt;than those things they use in the average salle des arms. Potential for<BR>&gt;terminology confusion if some hapless PC is challenged and told he needs<BR>&gt;to use a 'foil' and turns up with something raided from the fencing<BR>&gt;locker in the gym!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;My excuse is I've only fought 'blade weapons' with a longsword! Never done<BR>&gt;the 'sport' sort of fencing.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Hugs and kisses,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mexal.<BR><BR>Which leads to the question: What kind of cutlasses are we talking about<BR>when we say that Imperial Marines use cutlasses?<BR><BR>I would assume that when they are practicing drills, as described in GT:GF<BR>they are using some form of fencing cutlass which is very like a modern<BR>fencing saber, as is presently used in the sport. Since traditionally the<BR>cutlass is a weapon which has both an edge and a point. (The epee, and the<BR>foil that was developed to practice epee combat with, use only the point.)<BR><BR>What about in uniform? Do they use a heavier ceremonial cutlass while in<BR>dress uniform?<BR><BR>I already assume IMTU that they use hyperdense cutlass while in battle<BR>dress. (Yeah, yeah I know, my battledress has integrated weaponry too. The<BR>fusion gun is still a separate long arm, though it plugs into the backpack.<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:46:07 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: En garde<BR><BR>In a message dated 20-Feb-01 5:18:52 AM Central Standard Time, <BR>owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:<BR><BR>&gt; GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow for<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; _Desiree_. Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; even moreso, but both had their rewards.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; There was even allowance for enlisting in the army disguised as a man,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; although this involved certain risks also.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; LKW<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Also had rules for the Navy -- heavily influenced by Hornblower et al.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; Is there any chance of these being made accesible anywhere ?<BR><BR>If I could ever get my stuff from the storage locker 1100 miles away, I might <BR>try to get them into print somehow. <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:47:25 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Ohhh Ohh Ohhh<BR><BR>In a message dated 20-Feb-01 5:18:52 AM Central Standard Time, <BR>owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Ohhh Ohh Ohhh, see must have. I suppose that these have long since <BR>&gt;&nbsp; disappeared into the great void of "might-have-been" (he says really <BR>really <BR>&gt;&nbsp; hoping for an answer in the negative).<BR><BR>I think they are in one of the cartons of stuff still in a storage locker in <BR>Illinois.<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:48:03 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>Every time I see this subject line, I wonder who it is.<BR><BR>Kiri ^_^<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:45:47 -0500<BR>From: "Chris Seamans" &lt;semo@pil.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: HTML gibberish<BR><BR>Loren wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Gentles<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's? (just<BR>to<BR>&gt;pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any special steps to<BR>&gt;prevent it.<BR><BR>Nope, at least not from my end.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:44:28 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I'm with you, partner.&nbsp; Screw Virus!&nbsp; Who spiked the water cooler<BR>when<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; they came up with that one!??!<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . .<BR>.<BR>&gt;thank you.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Reminds me of the time some critic at the hotel bar at one of the east<BR>coast<BR>&gt;Origins was sounding off on what a lousy book _Red Storm Rising_ was, and<BR>how<BR>&gt;the scenario was totally implausible. I was sitting at the next table, with<BR>&gt;Frank Chadwick and a couple of friends of GDW, including one Tom Clancy<BR>(this<BR>&gt;was in the days he still could attend gaming cons and not be recognized).<BR>We<BR>&gt;were all waiting for the critic to say "What idiot came up with that one?"<BR>&gt;but he never did -- spolied a perfect anecdote in the making . . .<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;LKW<BR><BR>Name dropper. (Actually I'm very jealous that you've had the opportunity to<BR>meet and work with so many talented people.)<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:48:49 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Shrieker World<BR><BR>Did the gravity of the world inhabited by the Shriekers in District 268 ever <BR>make it into official print? I don't have the relevant adventure available <BR>right now . . .<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:53:56 -0600<BR>From: Stormhound &lt;stormhnd@fidnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: HTML gibberish<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Of course not.&nbsp; Your posts are always *inspired* gibberish.&nbsp; ;-)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (And they read okay too...)<BR><BR>GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Gentles<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's? (just to<BR>&gt; pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any special steps to<BR>&gt; prevent it.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; LKW<BR><BR>- --<BR>Stormhound<BR>DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:54:07 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Trevor Asked<BR><BR>&gt; Loren wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; allow for female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Amber_ and _Desiree_. Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; the king even moreso, but both had their rewards.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; There was even allowance for enlisting in the army disguised as a<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; man, although this involved certain risks also.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; Where can I find this, what's the URL?<BR><BR>It was written before the invention of the Apple ][ . . . it never had a URL.<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:58:18 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707<BR><BR>&gt;From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Sorry, Loren.&nbsp; I started this."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "I _am_ a little irritated by ad hominem remarks indicating that we <BR>were drunk/stoned/otherwise-impaired when we wrote whatever it was..."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Wiseman,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I don't know who sent you the apology I've snipped above, but he <BR>shouldn't have.&nbsp; I was the flip, crass, unfeeling, moron who typed the <BR>idiotic remark about the watercooler.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; It was an unforgiveable act on my part and you have my deepest <BR>apologies.&nbsp; My fingers typed it well before my brain was in gear.&nbsp; I am <BR>truly very sorry for it.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The folks here on the TML, including yourself, have shown me nothing <BR>but kindness and have given of themselves unstintingly.&nbsp; I repaid those <BR>gifts with an unfeeling, hurtful, and stupid remark.&nbsp; The entire list has my <BR>apologies also.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I cannot take the remark away, or wish that it did not happen, but I <BR>can try not to type and post any such things in the future.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sincerely,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; William R. Cameron - aka Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:01:42 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: TNE or not NE<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I have bit the hand that fed me Traveller!!!!!!!!<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; My most humble and abject apologies, Mr. Wiseman.&nbsp; My personal <BR>feelings <BR>&gt;&nbsp; towards Virus do not extend to it's mileau or the materials set there.<BR><BR>Anyone may criticise what I have written, all I ask is that they refrain from <BR>personal attacks. Attack my opinions, but not me. <BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:04:53 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Copyright<BR><BR>In a message dated 20-Feb-01 12:21:28 PM Central Standard Time, <BR>owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Gentlemen,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks thread mentioned <BR>&gt;&nbsp; copyright laws, specifically the fact that most nations ignore US statutes <BR>&gt;&nbsp; in that area.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address this please?&nbsp; What is <BR>&gt;&nbsp; wrong about the US take on copyright protections that the rest of the <BR>world <BR>&gt;&nbsp; simply ignores them?&nbsp; Or is the idea that US copyright law is "incorrect" <BR>&gt;&nbsp; just a handy fig leaf to explain away widespread software, video, music, <BR>and <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; any other type of media piracy?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; For example, friends in the software industry refer to Israel as a <BR>"one <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; disc" country.&nbsp; Once your product arrives there, it's immediately pirated <BR>&gt;&nbsp; and distributed, so you only sell "one disc".<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Please note, I am not taking sides in the "open source" debate.<BR><BR>Newsweek had an article this week that addressed this matter indirectly. I <BR>leave the discovery of that as an exercise to the reader.<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:36:44 -0600<BR>From: "Christopher Duden" &lt;dude@citilink.com&gt;<BR>Subject: FFE 004<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Does anyone know when FFE 004, The Short Adventures, is going to be out? I<BR>thought that it was supposed to be available&nbsp; in January...<BR><BR>~chris<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:33:30 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>Doug wrote:<BR><BR>&lt;snip typical story version of my post&gt;<BR>&gt;LT: (visibly shaken) "Yes sir!"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;CSM: (to General) "Sorry to bother you with this Dave."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;CG: "No problem John, dinner on Saturday?"<BR><BR>This CSM had one atvantage I did not include, Personal friendship with<BR>ranking officer. The versions I was basing my post on, the slap on the<BR>hand and "don't do it again" meant "use a little tact next time, I'll<BR>straighten out this kid".<BR><BR>Charles<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:44:47 -0500<BR>From: "Hunter Gordon" &lt;trav@RPGRealms.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: FFE 004<BR><BR>It just arrived to Marc, and should be shipping in the next day or two<BR><BR>Hunter<BR>The GRIP Team<BR><BR>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR&nbsp; ***********<BR><BR>On 2/20/2001 at 7:36 PM Christopher Duden wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Does anyone know when FFE 004, The Short Adventures, is going to be out? I<BR>&gt;thought that it was supposed to be available&nbsp; in January...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;~chris<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:53:04 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>At 10:04 PM -0600 2/19/01, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>&gt;All this take of legal systems and constitutions<BR>&gt;leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want<BR>&gt;to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.<BR>&gt;With a goal to create a Federal Republic type<BR>&gt;system.<BR><BR><BR>Communications are too slow to really support such a system.&nbsp; Of <BR>course&nbsp; you could have the event that sets all this in motion is the <BR>invention of near instantaneous communications across the Imperium....<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:41:07 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:12:07 GMT<BR>&gt; From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt; writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;(At this point you must imagine the national anthem of the USSR*<BR>&gt; &gt;begining to swell as the party apparatchiks march in lock step on<BR>&gt; &gt;the palace.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;*I can't find it at the moment but I've got a tape from the eighties<BR>&gt; &gt;with national anthems from quite a few countries. The "Hymn to<BR>&gt; &gt;the Soviet Union" (not sure if that's teh exact title) is a very moving<BR>&gt; &gt;piece of music.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Historical trivia time:&nbsp; the participants in the *actual* Russian<BR>&gt; Revolution sang the "Internationale" (which was the USSR's national<BR>&gt; anthem until WW2) and even "La Marseillaise".<BR><BR>Both good heroic revolutionary pieces of music as well.<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The song you're thinking of was, IIRC, supposedly "written" by Stalin<BR>&gt; in 1943 or so (in fact, he got a couple of composers to write songs,<BR>&gt; then took part of the tune from each of them).<BR><BR>Well they did a good job it is a stirring piece of music.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:43:08 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:11:00 PST<BR>&gt; From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Waaaait just a minute: We ALL know that Hotblack's Band, Disaster Area,<BR>is<BR>&gt; &gt; the one whose audiovisual system violate many planets' strategic arms<BR>&gt; &gt; limitations treaties. All others are merely pretenders. This from<BR>Douglas<BR>&gt; &gt; Adams' Restaurant at the End of the Universe.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Evil thought of the week.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; There's a gizmo that's been kicking around as a lab prototype for<BR>&gt; around 20 years now. By using MHD effects, it's possible to make a<BR>&gt; flame act as a speaker.<BR><BR>This is way too cool.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3717<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 20 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3718<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: A Lucky Find?<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Civility and Politeness<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Shrieker World<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: <BR>What could go wrong?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Civility and Politeness<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: En Garde<BR>Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:58:29 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:05:33 +0100<BR>&gt; From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; "Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>&gt; &gt; Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>&gt; &gt; Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; It's not working. I want my money/soul/whatever back.<BR><BR>Perhaps your mispronouncing it?<BR><BR>David &lt;fnord&gt; Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:51:30 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:12:18 +1000<BR>&gt; From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; From: "DaveShayne"<BR>&gt; &gt; Don't you know the only historically vallid government<BR>&gt; &gt; for the Imperium is the scientific planned political economy.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; It is time, tovariches, to proclaim the truth of the interstellar<BR>&gt; &gt; proletariat revolution! Long live the United Soviet Socialist Planets!<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; All power to the Soviets! Down with Tsarist Imperialism!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar (Solidariti) welcomes the<BR>&gt; emergence of new forces in the revolutionary struggle against the<BR>&gt; megacorporations' Imperium.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Alan Bradley<BR>&gt; alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>Together we will march toward victory for the downtroden masses<BR>of the Imperium.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR>Chairbeing of the Nth International Council<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:50:18 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:03:43 -0600<BR>&gt; From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Who says it has to be the size of the 3I?&nbsp; Who says the democratic<BR>&gt; mechanisms need to be similar to real world ones?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Member worlds could select Senators based on whatever criteria<BR>&gt; or government type they want. The length of term of a Senator in<BR>&gt; the Imperial Senate might be 10, 20 or even 30 years. A President<BR>&gt; could be elected by the Senate every 10 or so years.<BR><BR>My scheme for an Imperium wide democracy might look a little like this.<BR><BR>Firstly the government is highly republican in form. Every year elections<BR>for representatives to the subsector parliament (insert apropriate vilani<BR>term here) are held. Each planet elects one sophont who serves a<BR>seven year term. (This means that every planet would have seven<BR>reps in the subsector parliament.) The elections occur on Holiday<BR>(might as well keep the day)<BR><BR>The subsector parliament, meeting 3 months after Holiday, chooses one<BR>of it's members to serve as representative to the sector parliament.<BR>These representatives also serve for 7 years giving each subsector<BR>7 representatives in the sector parliament. The parliament would<BR>also choose a president (insert apropriate vilani title here) to serve<BR>untill next year.<BR><BR>The sector parliament, meeting 6 months after Holiday, chooses a<BR>rep to the Imperium (Democrium?) parliament and a president for<BR>the sector.<BR><BR>The Democrium (I think I like this term) parliament meeting the day<BR>before Holiday chooses the President of the whole shebang and<BR>now the government is complete.<BR><BR>The bureaucratic structure answering to the various presidents<BR>caries out the will of the elected government (in theory at least)<BR>and performs the day to day actions that allow any large society<BR>to function.<BR><BR>Due to travel times involved a representative's term lasts untill<BR>his/her/it's replacement arrives. Special elections to replace<BR>reps who have left office early due to death, resignation,<BR>or election to higher parliaments will be held with the next<BR>regular election. leaving some seats open for a year or so.<BR><BR>On to practical matters. This system gives equal representation<BR>to all planets regardless of population. Since the High Pop<BR>planets will of course not consider this acceptable we need to<BR>amend the voting technique. The method I propose would be<BR>to give each representative voting power based on the population<BR>of it's homeworld. Call this the proxy representation. But because<BR>the smaller planets (those with merely hundreds of millions of<BR>inhabitants) will feel disenfranchised on a strict population count<BR>representatives will also have geographical representation of<BR>1 vote per world.<BR><BR>So in order for a resolution to pass in parliament it must<BR>garner a majority of the proxy vote as well as a majority<BR>of the geograhical vote.<BR><BR>Toss in the standard bill of rights fare and I'd say we have<BR>a democracy.<BR><BR>Please note that all numbers and dates were pulled out of<BR>thin air and are not carved in stone. (Indeed I was going<BR>to suggest 5 reps per world but that would look to obviously<BR>like a hiver manipulation.)<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:01:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>David P. Summers writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Communications are too slow to really support such a system. <BR><BR>I wish I had any idea why people believe this is true.&nbsp; A republic-style<BR>government is no more dependent on fast communication than an empire.&nbsp; Sure,<BR>you can't do direct election of a leader (at least, not in any useful way),<BR>but parliamentary government would work fine.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:02:55 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness<BR><BR>Frankie wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;James wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;Though in my experience, the only reliable sub killers are submarines<BR>&gt;&gt;themselves....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Actually, the best sub-killer is a P3 Orion.<BR>&gt;&lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>Yea, they don't have the mechanical breakdown and morale problems that<BR>turn other subkillers into targets<BR><BR>Charles<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:10:17 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>At 6:01 PM -0800 2/20/01, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt;David P. Summers writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Communications are too slow to really support such a system.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I wish I had any idea why people believe this is true.&nbsp; A republic-style<BR>&gt;government is no more dependent on fast communication than an empire.&nbsp; Sure,<BR>&gt;you can't do direct election of a leader (at least, not in any useful way),<BR>&gt;but parliamentary government would work fine.<BR><BR>You really need to have people able to make local decisions (up to <BR>fighting a war) on their own authority.&nbsp; That means you effectively <BR>either have a feudal structure or a loose confederacy.<BR><BR>To give those local people all that power, and not have them just go <BR>independant, you either have to lure them into cooperation for mutual <BR>benefit (the confederation) or you have to have a decent sized stick <BR>to whack them if they step out of line (the feudal system).<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:11:21 +1100<BR>From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>In fact, the Emporer could be kept, with reduced powers of course.<BR>I realise that this is not a Republican Democracy.... but it might be<BR>the logical next step from the present fuedal structure. <BR>The Emporer is forced to sign a document that allows the formation of a<BR>'House of Citizens', drawn strictly from the untitled imperial populace<BR>as a counterbalance to the increasing powers of the Moot. <BR>If a hostile Moot was giving him trouble, the Emporer might even<BR>consider doing it himself, as a political ploy to give him a alternative<BR>support structure. <BR><BR>The strife will start when the 'Military Chains of Command' are taken<BR>away from the Nobility and given to ministers in the Citizens house.&nbsp; <BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Anthony Jackson [mailto:ajackson@molly.iii.com]<BR>Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 1:02 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Cc: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR><BR>David P. Summers writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Communications are too slow to really support such a system. <BR><BR>I wish I had any idea why people believe this is true.&nbsp; A republic-style<BR>government is no more dependent on fast communication than an empire.<BR>Sure,<BR>you can't do direct election of a leader (at least, not in any useful<BR>way),<BR>but parliamentary government would work fine.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:25:57 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt;Due to travel times involved a representative's term lasts untill<BR>&gt;his/her/it's replacement arrives. Special elections to replace<BR>&gt;reps who have left office early due to death, resignation,<BR>&gt;or election to higher parliaments will be held with the next<BR>&gt;regular election. leaving some seats open for a year or so.<BR><BR>In an effort to forestall such an event happening, as a lot of legislation<BR>could be passed in that year, a delegation is sent, not just a<BR>representative.&nbsp; Said Delegation has the Senator plus his runner up.&nbsp; By<BR>law, said runner up may not be in the same vicinity as the Representative.<BR>Assassination aside, this should help keep a planet represented at all times.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:24:14 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Shrieker World<BR><BR>&gt;Did the gravity of the world inhabited by the Shriekers in District 268 <BR>&gt;ever make it into official print? I don't have the relevant adventure <BR>&gt;available right now . . .<BR><BR>There's no mention of the gravity anywhere in Adventure 10.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:39:23 -0800<BR>From: "James W. Brewer" &lt;jwbrewer@ucsd.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:36:39 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mr. Carlino,<BR>&gt; No offense taken sir, because I completely agree with every point in<BR>&gt;your post! Looking back at myself and my peers from over 15 years in the<BR>&gt;future makes me wince.&nbsp; ...<BR>as a somewhat interesting aside: When I was preparing to get out, a<BR>subcontractor we had on board was describing the hardships that existed in<BR>the job market for a retired CPO. According to him there were just no jobs<BR>to be had that paid as much as being on active duty. Of course he was a Mess<BR>Specialist, which meant that he was doing a job that is often performed by<BR>young people in their mid-twenties (as are most McD's managers.) He was a<BR>sales rep for one of the galley suppliers. He couldn't conceive of the fact<BR>that an ex-nuc, qualified as an Engineer Watch Officer (On steam and Gas<BR>Turbines), who also managed to get a BS while on active duty, might be able<BR>to find a job with a salary higher than an E-8 without great difficulty.<BR>Basically very few people outside the military get the pay of a Chief Mess<BR>Specialist, Yeoman or Personnel Specialist for doing the same job. Very few<BR>Chief Electronic Technicians, Electricians, or any of the computer specialty<BR>ratings make as little as they do in the military doing the same job. Just<BR>more proof of your point.<BR><BR>One of the reasons for the equal pay rates in the US Army is that when push <BR>comes to shove, every enlisted man is an infantryman.&nbsp; I had a friend that <BR>arrived in Vietnam after a year of radio repair school with more clearances <BR>than you can shake a stick at, just in time for the 68 Tet Offensive.&nbsp; He <BR>promptly got put into a provisional platoon and shipped to an Infantry <BR>Bn.&nbsp; He never did get to the depot he had orders for, ending up in the <BR>Brigade support company after three months in the Infantry.&nbsp; His combat <BR>infantry badge did raise some eye brows when he was rotated back to the states.<BR>Jim Brewer<BR>jwbrewer@ucsd.edu<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:36:17 GMT<BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>"Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;having nobles as the judiciary when they<BR>&gt;are major shareholders of megacorps et al. is inviting opportunities <BR>&gt;for corruption or at least the appearance of corruption.<BR><BR>&lt;in character&gt;<BR><BR>You're forgettin' a damned important point, young fellah - we're<BR>gentlemen.&nbsp; And ladies, of course.&nbsp; We give our word of honour to try<BR>each case fairly, accordin' to the Law.&nbsp; Deliberately makin' a false<BR>decision is just Not Done.&nbsp; Noblesse oblige and all that, you know?<BR>Dash it all, you'd think we were moneygrubbing middle class oiks, not<BR>nobles sworn to the service of His Imperial Majesty.<BR><BR>Of course, if a chap feels he's just too closely involved with a case<BR>to be impartial, he can always declare a conflict of interest and<BR>disqualify himself.&nbsp; After all, appearances are important.&nbsp; Justice<BR>must be *seen* to be done, what?<BR><BR>&lt;/IC&gt;<BR><BR><BR>&gt;nobles.&nbsp; Who polices the police?<BR><BR>Social pressure...<BR><BR>Stephen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:36:19 GMT<BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>"Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;Even during the Napoleonic and US civil wars,<BR>&gt;bayonets were rarely used (at least according to the number of bayonet<BR>&gt;wounds recorded by field surgeons).<BR><BR>I thought bayonets were more of a *defensive* weapon, at least during<BR>the Napoleonic wars.&nbsp; They were used to fend off horses when the<BR>batallion formed square...&nbsp; For actually dealing wounds to the enemy,<BR>you'd use musket fire, artillery and/or cavalry sabres.<BR><BR>Stephen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:40:50 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: <BR><BR>Larsen wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; Believe me some of these folks shouldn't be allowed out of the house<BR>without a keeper.<BR><BR>Salesmen or customers?<BR><BR>Charles<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:14:49 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR>&nbsp; My players will be involved in the shakedown cruise of their ship next<BR>week.&nbsp; The ship they have is a 7 year old Beowulf that had been hulled<BR>repeatedly by a pirate working in cahoots with a Cortez Salvage ship.&nbsp; The<BR>ship unfortunately, was reduced to scrap as she put up a fight against the<BR>pirate ship.&nbsp; As it turns out, the players decided to mount replacement<BR>engines after buying the ship for scrap.&nbsp; They have refurbished it and the<BR>ship is now worth more than the points the character put into the ownership<BR>thereof.<BR><BR>Consequently, the ship, likely to be christened THE PHOENIX RISES or<BR>something like that, will have to have a few "quirks".<BR><BR>&nbsp; To date, the following are "quirks" that I've decided to incorporate into<BR>the ship's personality so that the players can love her or hate her.&nbsp; If<BR>any of you salty seaman types can give me a few other ideas &lt;grin&gt;...<BR><BR>1) the ship's internal sensors will occasionally indicate a fire in the<BR>hold.&nbsp; This will be due to the fact that the shipyard used sensor parts<BR>that were substituted for what was required.&nbsp; The manual states that such<BR>substitutions are permitted, but part of the manual will be chewed up in an<BR>accident rendering the data unreadable.&nbsp; The missing part of the manual<BR>states "Except for parts Zk543-B manufactured on &lt;fill in planet&gt;, Zk543-B<BR>will function as replacements for Klm543-A through Klm540-P."&nbsp; All the<BR>shipyard could find was the part that said "Zk543-B will function as<BR>replacements for Klm543-A through Klm540-P.&nbsp; Eventually, the players may<BR>think to check for original specs...<BR><BR>2) the moorings for the manuever drives were not centered properly, and as<BR>such, any delicate manuevering will result in a -1 to piloting skill.&nbsp; As a<BR>result of not being centered, such drives will measure as giving off 100%<BR>thrust, but will only give off 98% thrust.<BR><BR>3) None of the cables will be laid exactly as the schematics of the ship<BR>originally required.&nbsp; This adds an additional 25% to the maintenance times<BR>for the first 3 months until the players make a strong effort to document<BR>their new layout.&nbsp; If they don't make this effort, the new hires for the<BR>engine room will also suffer this 25% maintenance problems.&nbsp; In any event,<BR>maintenance penalties only apply to electrical oriented work.<BR><BR>4) Life support bacterial chambers will contain a genegineered strain of<BR>bacteria that were not authorized by the regulatory agency.&nbsp; As such, they<BR>will be stronger than expected in the "be fruitful and multiply" aspect,<BR>but will be less long lived than expected.&nbsp; This is strictly a function of<BR>a Megacorporation attempting to cut corners *and* bypass Imperial testing<BR>regulations with regards to life support.&nbsp; Should the players realize this,<BR>they have grounds for a complaint that will result in their finding out<BR>just how rapidly Megacorporations sweep legal problems under the rug.&nbsp; Of<BR>course, if they make enough waves, some MegaCorp hack is going to get<BR>canned, and they will aquire an enemy who hates their guts...<BR><BR>5) This is where the List's diabolical nature can excel in giving out<BR>ideas.&nbsp; What else can go wrong that is annoying - potentially alarming,<BR>even demoralizing, yet not deadly enough to make a ship become rated as<BR>"unsafe".<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:11:06 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt;You're forgettin' a damned important point, young fellah - we're<BR>&gt;gentlemen.&nbsp; And ladies, of course.&nbsp; We give our word of honour to try<BR>&gt;each case fairly, accordin' to the Law.&nbsp; Deliberately makin' a false<BR>&gt;decision is just Not Done.&nbsp; Noblesse oblige and all that, you know?<BR>&gt;Dash it all, you'd think we were moneygrubbing middle class oiks, not<BR>&gt;nobles sworn to the service of His Imperial Majesty.<BR><BR>There's really only one example of noblesse oblige that worked reasonably <BR>well in world history, the British one from about 1700-1900. And anyone who <BR>thinks there weren't *numerous* exceptions for the benefit of the upper <BR>class even in that case needs to take a close look at the Corn Laws again.<BR><BR>People are people, king or cat, and a large fraction of them wil always look <BR>out for number one.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:18:11 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>Well said Hal.&nbsp; I cannot disagree with any of what you said.&nbsp; But you<BR>missed Counts and Marquis'.<BR><BR>But since you opened the door.<BR>One of the things I found about Nobles that I liked was in Pocket<BR>Empires.&nbsp; The breakdown of duties based on age:<BR>"Age 1 to 20&nbsp; &nbsp; Childhood<BR>Age 20 to 40&nbsp; &nbsp; Learning<BR>Age 40 to 60&nbsp; &nbsp; Ruling<BR>Age 60 to 80&nbsp; &nbsp; Advising"<BR><BR>Now I know of no historical president for this, but I think it might<BR>work very well in the Imperium (with a few mods).&nbsp; First: average<BR>lifespan for Nobles in the Imperium is/should be longer than 80 years,<BR>so I would use 25 year blocks.&nbsp; Second: Imperial Nobles are to be in 2<BR>places at once (thier fief and the Moot), therefore the "Advising" years<BR>would be advising the Emporer at the Moot.&nbsp; This would allow good (as in<BR>someone with local knowledge) representation at the Capital and good (as<BR>in someone on site) governing at home.&nbsp; Third: Dukes and ArchDukes will<BR>likely have constant corrispondence with the Emporer and more required<BR>duties at home so would reverse this in that the "Ruling" years would be<BR>spent sitting at the Moot learning interstellar politics and the<BR>"Advising" years would be spent at home running the Duchy.&nbsp; Fourth: If<BR>the son moves up to the "Advising" role andf the father is still around,<BR>then the father could retire or move on to taking special duties from<BR>the Emporer (i.e.&nbsp; heading up an investigating committee, special<BR>diplomatic duties, go and see which of the competing heirs to the Barony<BR>of Whatsit is worthy of conformation, etc).&nbsp; Fifth:&nbsp; This is not an<BR>"Offical Policy" of the Third Imperium, and may or maynot be used based<BR>on local preference.<BR><BR>Benifits: Experienced ruler at home. Experienced representation at the<BR>Moot. Reduced complaints about Nobles using anagatithics (they are not<BR>filling the same position for 50-100 years).&nbsp; I don't think I have<BR>broken any cannon.<BR><BR><BR>OK, now what have I missed.&nbsp; I know I missed something, what is it?<BR><BR>Charles H<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:11:15 +1100<BR>From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>What were the corn laws?<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Paul Drye [mailto:p_drye@hotmail.com]<BR>Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 2:11 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR><BR>&gt;You're forgettin' a damned important point, young fellah - we're<BR>&gt;gentlemen.&nbsp; And ladies, of course.&nbsp; We give our word of honour to try<BR>&gt;each case fairly, accordin' to the Law.&nbsp; Deliberately makin' a false<BR>&gt;decision is just Not Done.&nbsp; Noblesse oblige and all that, you know?<BR>&gt;Dash it all, you'd think we were moneygrubbing middle class oiks, not<BR>&gt;nobles sworn to the service of His Imperial Majesty.<BR><BR>There's really only one example of noblesse oblige that worked<BR>reasonably <BR>well in world history, the British one from about 1700-1900. And anyone<BR>who <BR>thinks there weren't *numerous* exceptions for the benefit of the upper <BR>class even in that case needs to take a close look at the Corn Laws<BR>again.<BR><BR>People are people, king or cat, and a large fraction of them wil always<BR>look <BR>out for number one.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________________<BR>_<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at<BR>http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:12:54 -0500<BR>From: "Fred Ramen" &lt;von_rammen@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness<BR><BR>Well, I for one think Larsen's on to something here. I've been monitoring<BR>the list (a fancy word for lurking) lately, just waiting for the next flame<BR>war to erupt. But since Larsen's been here, several promising ones just<BR>haven't ignited. Now I'm hoping that when they finally do spark, Larsen's<BR>high standards of civility will prevail:<BR><BR>pre-Larsen flame message:<BR><BR>"I read your post, you moronic single digit-IQ waste of air! Killfiling your<BR>posts isn't enough--it would have to kill you, your dog, and all your<BR>friends! Don't ever come to [my region of Earth] or I'll [increase your<BR>natal allotment of bodily orfices]!"<BR><BR>post-Whipsnade flame:<BR><BR>"Sir: I have just received and read your post of the 12th instant. Its<BR>language is, as you say, unusual; its arguements and statements utterly<BR>one-sided, and its insinuations as unfounded as they are unbecoming.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; "I am, &amp;c.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A Poster"*<BR><BR>I remain, gentlesophonts,<BR>your obt. srvt.,<BR><BR>Fred Ramen<BR>- -----------<BR>*Slightly modified from the text of a letter from Jefferson Davis to Genl.<BR>J.E. Johnston, 1861.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:04:09 -0500<BR>From: "Fred Ramen" &lt;von_rammen@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>IMTU the Imperium subtly but actively ridicules the concept of democracy,<BR>representative or not, for anything larger than a planet. The attitude is<BR>similar to that of the aristocracy of the 17th/18th century in Europe<BR>towards democratic reformers...<BR><BR>The Ine Givar have revived a mishmash of literature from pre-Interstellar<BR>Wars Terra (under the theory that the TC became increasingly a military<BR>dictatorship as the wars progressed). Of course, a lot of the records are<BR>garbled, or lost, or completely misinterpreted, so _Capital_ and _1984_ are<BR>both key texts for them, as well as the _Surrealist Manifesto_...<BR><BR>Fred Ramen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:43:21 -0800<BR>From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt;From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR>...<BR>&gt;&gt; 1) Democracies&nbsp;&nbsp; require&nbsp;&nbsp; timely&nbsp;&nbsp; communication&nbsp;&nbsp; between&nbsp;&nbsp; the<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; electorate and the elected.&nbsp; For low tech worlds&nbsp; this&nbsp; limits<BR>...<BR>&gt;Why?&nbsp; Just elect your representative, send him to Capital for a few years,<BR>&gt;and trust that he'll vote the right way.&nbsp; Nobles vote in the Moot all the<BR>&gt;time without the latest information about their homeworlds, right?&nbsp; Of<BR><BR>&nbsp; Sure, and a cynic might say that said nobles only have to look in the<BR>mirror to consult the interests of their main constituent :&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;course, this means that elections will be decided less on the basis of<BR>&gt;stands on particular issues than on the question of the candidate's<BR>&gt;integrity and ability to make the right decision without checking the<BR>&gt;polls, but is this such a bad thing?<BR><BR>&nbsp; "Representative democracy is an oxymoron" - anon. Imperial apologist<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:10:35 -0800<BR>From: "Brian Jenkins" &lt;brianjenk@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde<BR><BR>Well if you do want to play En Garde by PBEM there are several games online<BR>with expanded rule sets.&nbsp; You can look at my game at<BR>http://www.hijenks.com/engarde or you can check out the En Garde PBEM web<BR>ring at http://www.hijenks.com/egwebring .&nbsp; My rule set is also available if<BR>you care to start your own game and any of us will be glad to help.&nbsp; I even<BR>have a set of spreadsheets and programs I have written to help adjudicate<BR>the turns.&nbsp;&nbsp; The games in the webring are not only traditional but there are<BR>variants also.&nbsp; Players range from 16 in some games to up to 65 in games<BR>like Orleans (At the above mentioned URL)&nbsp; If you want to get involved or<BR>start your own you can email me at engarde@hijenks.com and I will be glad to<BR>help you out with rulesets or getting going finding players.&nbsp; Let me know if<BR>you are interested!<BR><BR>Brian<BR><BR>P.S. I know there are at least a couple of members on the list here that<BR>play in my game.&nbsp; It is a blast!<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Ian or Katts" &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 1:11 PM<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde<BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt;From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Subject: Re: En Garde<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;On 19 Feb 2001, at 19:22, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow<BR>for<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and<BR>_Desiree_.<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king even moreso, but<BR>both<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; had their rewards.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Ohhh Ohh Ohhh, see must have. I suppose that these have long since<BR>&gt; &gt;disappeared into the great void of "might-have-been" (he says really<BR>really<BR>&gt; &gt;hoping for an answer in the negative).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Mon freres,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I fear we have no choice. We can, nay, must free France from the tyrrany<BR>that is the lazy, corrupt<BR>&gt; Jansenists that have the King in their thrall.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Oh, and that coat, m'sieur it is c'est bon.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Ian Whitchurch<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; PS I know it is OT, but I feel we have no choice but to start an En Garde<BR>PBEM. Who is reffing ?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:13:07 -0800<BR>From: "Brian Jenkins" &lt;brianjenk@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR><BR>As I posted before if you really want to run a PBEM En Garde game I and<BR>others can help in that area.&nbsp; I have been running the Orleans PBEM En Garde<BR>game for over a year.<BR><BR>Brian<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: &lt;hal@buffnet.net&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 6:55 PM<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR><BR><BR>&gt; I was lucky enough to meet John and his lovely bride when they came to see<BR>&gt; the United States some time back (Danie says Hi John and Alison!).&nbsp; In any<BR>&gt; event, he was kind enough to bring with him, a recent copy of En Guarde...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Problem is, I haven't the slightest clue on how to run a play by email<BR>&gt; campaign like that.&nbsp; Hell, I'm having problems trying to figure out how to<BR>&gt; bring FAR TRADER to the computer for long term use.&nbsp; I just realized that<BR>&gt; the size of the database now has to utilize 400+ records, each with 1200<BR>&gt; elements (hex ID along with Average Trade Volume and Average Passenger<BR>&gt; Volume)!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Come Hell or High water, that book is gonna fit into that blasted program!<BR>&gt; (and no, it isn't come Hal or high water either...)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3718<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (rly-yh03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.35]) by air-yh04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:18:30 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:18:06 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id XAA33179;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:13:05 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:12:52 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id XAA33134<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:12:52 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:12:52 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102210412.XAA33134@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3718<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, February 21 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3719<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: En garde<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>re: the corn laws?<BR>Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Civility and Politeness<BR>Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR>Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR>Re: HTML gibberish<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:18:53 +0000<BR>From: "Doug C." &lt;dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Actually you don't really have a democracy...<BR>A weirdly nor quite bi-cameral parlimentary republic...sort of... kind<BR>of reminds one of the Electoral college, eh?<BR><BR>I would suggest that electing a single representative per world, and<BR>then giving population based voting rights is addresses neither the<BR>concerns of the hi or Lo-Pop worlds.&nbsp; Functionally, one or two Hi-Pop<BR>systems WILL control the legislature, regardless of a geographical vote.<BR><BR>A better alternative would be a bi-cameral house;&nbsp; Lower House w<BR>population based representation, and an upper house (the house of 'sober<BR>2nd thought') would be geographically based.<BR><BR>Something along the lines of the Canadian (Commons &amp; Senate) or British<BR>(Commons and Lords) Parliaments would be workable, especially if you are<BR>leaning toward a constitutional monarchy.&nbsp;&nbsp; The Lords could be used to<BR>give the existing Nobles something to do...<BR><BR>Doug :-)<BR>"Three cheers for Her Majesty!!!!&nbsp; Up the Colonies..."<BR><BR><BR>DaveShayne wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:03:43 -0600<BR>&gt; &gt; From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Who says it has to be the size of the 3I?&nbsp; Who says the democratic<BR>&gt; &gt; mechanisms need to be similar to real world ones?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Member worlds could select Senators based on whatever criteria<BR>&gt; &gt; or government type they want. The length of term of a Senator in<BR>&gt; &gt; the Imperial Senate might be 10, 20 or even 30 years. A President<BR>&gt; &gt; could be elected by the Senate every 10 or so years.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; My scheme for an Imperium wide democracy might look a little like this.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Firstly the government is highly republican in form. Every year elections<BR>&gt; for representatives to the subsector parliament (insert apropriate vilani<BR>&gt; term here) are held. Each planet elects one sophont who serves a<BR>&gt; seven year term. (This means that every planet would have seven<BR>&gt; reps in the subsector parliament.) The elections occur on Holiday<BR>&gt; (might as well keep the day)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The subsector parliament, meeting 3 months after Holiday, chooses one<BR>&gt; of it's members to serve as representative to the sector parliament.<BR>&gt; These representatives also serve for 7 years giving each subsector<BR>&gt; 7 representatives in the sector parliament. The parliament would<BR>&gt; also choose a president (insert apropriate vilani title here) to serve<BR>&gt; untill next year.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The sector parliament, meeting 6 months after Holiday, chooses a<BR>&gt; rep to the Imperium (Democrium?) parliament and a president for<BR>&gt; the sector.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The Democrium (I think I like this term) parliament meeting the day<BR>&gt; before Holiday chooses the President of the whole shebang and<BR>&gt; now the government is complete.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The bureaucratic structure answering to the various presidents<BR>&gt; caries out the will of the elected government (in theory at least)<BR>&gt; and performs the day to day actions that allow any large society<BR>&gt; to function.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Due to travel times involved a representative's term lasts untill<BR>&gt; his/her/it's replacement arrives. Special elections to replace<BR>&gt; reps who have left office early due to death, resignation,<BR>&gt; or election to higher parliaments will be held with the next<BR>&gt; regular election. leaving some seats open for a year or so.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On to practical matters. This system gives equal representation<BR>&gt; to all planets regardless of population. Since the High Pop<BR>&gt; planets will of course not consider this acceptable we need to<BR>&gt; amend the voting technique. The method I propose would be<BR>&gt; to give each representative voting power based on the population<BR>&gt; of it's homeworld. Call this the proxy representation. But because<BR>&gt; the smaller planets (those with merely hundreds of millions of<BR>&gt; inhabitants) will feel disenfranchised on a strict population count<BR>&gt; representatives will also have geographical representation of<BR>&gt; 1 vote per world.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; So in order for a resolution to pass in parliament it must<BR>&gt; garner a majority of the proxy vote as well as a majority<BR>&gt; of the geograhical vote.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Toss in the standard bill of rights fare and I'd say we have<BR>&gt; a democracy.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Please note that all numbers and dates were pulled out of<BR>&gt; thin air and are not carved in stone. (Indeed I was going<BR>&gt; to suggest 5 reps per world but that would look to obviously<BR>&gt; like a hiver manipulation.)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:15:04 -0800<BR>From: "Brian Jenkins" &lt;brianjenk@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: En garde<BR><BR>I also have two copies of the GDW 2nd edition En Garde rules.&nbsp; Plus I think<BR>I have them in .pdf format somewhere around here.<BR><BR>Not to mention the expanded rules I use in my game.&nbsp; It includes things like<BR>church postions, playwrights, the royal academy of science, among others.<BR><BR>Brian<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: &lt;GDWGAMES@aol.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 4:46 PM<BR>Subject: Re: En garde<BR><BR><BR>&gt; In a message dated 20-Feb-01 5:18:52 AM Central Standard Time,<BR>&gt; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &gt; Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow<BR>for<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &gt; female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &gt; _Desiree_. Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &gt; even moreso, but both had their rewards.<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &gt; There was even allowance for enlisting in the army disguised as a<BR>man,<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &gt; although this involved certain risks also.<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &gt; LKW<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &gt; Also had rules for the Navy -- heavily influenced by Hornblower et<BR>al.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; Is there any chance of these being made accesible anywhere ?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; If I could ever get my stuff from the storage locker 1100 miles away, I<BR>might<BR>&gt; try to get them into print somehow.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:22:04 +0000<BR>From: "Doug C." &lt;dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>The Republican style of government historically tends toward centralism,<BR>or fragmentation.&nbsp; The alternatives are confederacy, or parliamentary<BR>federalism (more centralized than a confederacy, less than a republican<BR>model<BR><BR>Doug :-)<BR><BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; David P. Summers writes:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Communications are too slow to really support such a system.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I wish I had any idea why people believe this is true.&nbsp; A republic-style<BR>&gt; government is no more dependent on fast communication than an empire.&nbsp; Sure,<BR>&gt; you can't do direct election of a leader (at least, not in any useful way),<BR>&gt; but parliamentary government would work fine.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 04:34:53 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "What were the corn laws?"<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Harris,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The Corn Laws were a series of statutes in Britain that forbid the <BR>importation of corn (what North Americans call wheat) except at certain <BR>prices and quantities.&nbsp; It was ensure high market prices for home grown <BR>corn.&nbsp; Seeing as nobles owned most of the farms growing said crop, keeping <BR>the prices high was in their best interest.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Eventually, the rise in population, coupled with the labor needs of the <BR>newly indutrialized cities and towns, meant that Britain could no longer <BR>feed itself (this occurred roughly between 1820 to 1850).&nbsp; Agitation to <BR>repeal the Corn Laws was actually greater than agitation to allow more men <BR>to the vote.&nbsp; After all, wheat is bread, and bread is life.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Of course the nobility, and the newly wealthy enscounced in their <BR>rotten borough seats in the Commons, resisted any efforts to reduce the <BR>tariffs out of self interest.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; A good parallel for us might be the dairy price supports championed by <BR>Sen. Proxmire.&nbsp; Intially meant to ensure that milk would available for <BR>children (a cynical motive if there ever was one), they have slowly driven <BR>smaller dairies out of the marketplace be reducing profit margins.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:40:48 -0800<BR>From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>Subject: re: the corn laws?<BR><BR>&gt;From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;What were the corn laws?<BR><BR>&nbsp; Price supports by way of import controls on staple cereals. The<BR>conspicuous failure was early in the Irish famine, although they<BR>were much maligned by the factory-owning progressives, who could<BR>only pay lower wages if food costs came down. Later, agricultural<BR>goods from the emerging world market made food cheap and led to<BR>the free trade policies that probably reduced the UK's relative<BR>prosperity faster than would otherwise have been the case.<BR><BR>&nbsp; There are few ways of re-distributing incomes that _haven't_<BR>been thought of; different countries just use different ones.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Steven Hudson<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:09:43 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Hello Leonard,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;The trick is that rain clouds are in the troposphere. And thus, the<BR>&gt;&gt;dust washes out quickly. Dust in the *stratosphere* lingers for<BR>&gt;&gt;extended periods. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; What mechanism brings the dust from the Stratosphere down to lower levels?<BR>&gt; I suspect &lt;sheepish grin&gt; that it is gravity - but what keeps it up there<BR>&gt; in defiance of gravity?<BR><BR>Brownian motion. The particles are so small that their motion is far<BR>more determined by random impacts with air molecules than by gravity. <BR><BR>So once they get up there, it takes a "random walk" to get out of the<BR>stratosphere. And that takes a lot of time, give that several km having<BR>to be covered with average "step" sizes too small to see.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:21:34 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Just as an example, consider that in the US (and probably most of the<BR>&gt;&gt; other countries that this list has readers in) women are slightly in<BR>&gt;&gt; the majority. Which means that if it ever came down to it, they *could*<BR>&gt;&gt; vote to place restrictions on men. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I'm not sure that some of the whackier anti-porn laws don't qualify,<BR>&gt; although technically and in some cases actually they restrict both<BR>&gt; genders.<BR><BR>The old quote about "The law, in it's majesty forbids the rich and poor<BR>alike from sleeping under bridges" (not exact, but you get the idea).<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Well, there are also people who want their government to give them a<BR>&gt;&gt; share of other people's money, and to make other people conform to<BR>&gt;&gt; their idea of what the "right way to live" is. <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; And that latter is the scariest aspect of democracy. Ask anybody who<BR>&gt;&gt; has ever had laws passed that discriminate against "their kind". Or<BR>&gt;&gt; even who has had such laws placed on the ballot where they live. <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; I've been there. And until you have, don't be so quick to claim<BR>&gt;&gt; democracy as being the best form of government.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Yea, verily.&nbsp; Me too.<BR><BR>I had a few nightmares I *don't* want to remember after a couple of<BR>people died in a firebombing. <BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Majority rule sounds great until it's *your* blood the mob is howling for.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Can I put that on my quotes page, Leonard?<BR><BR>Sure, though I'm not sure if I'm repeating something I heard elsewhere.<BR><BR>Since I collect quotes, I wouldn't object of you sent me a copy of the<BR>page. :-)<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:26:08 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; I've been there. And until you have, don't be so quick to claim<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; democracy as being the best form of government.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Yea, verily.&nbsp; Me too.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; It's worth noting that the US is not a democracy (in fact, I can't think of <BR>&gt; any large political entity ever that has truly been a democracy).&nbsp; The US<BR>&gt; is a constitutional republic.<BR><BR>True, but the laws that I and Kiri are referring to *are* ballot<BR>inititiaves. They got put on the ballot by gathering enough signatures,<BR>and were voted on directly by the people. <BR><BR>And while I support the idea of the initiative process, I shudder every<BR>time I hear someone complaining the courts overturning "the will of the<BR>people" when an inititiave is ruled unconstitutional.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 04:49:59 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness<BR><BR>From: "Fred Ramen" &lt;von_rammen@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "I for one think Larsen's on to something here. I've been monitoring<BR>the list (a fancy word for lurking) lately, just waiting for the next flame <BR>war to erupt. But since Larsen's been here, several promising ones just <BR>haven't ignited. Now I'm hoping that when they finally do spark, Larsen's <BR>high standards of civility will prevail:..."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Ramen,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Please sir, your praise is misplaced.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; While my method of posting may be archaic, if not overly verbose, I <BR>seriously doubt that my feeble presence has had anything to do with the <BR>level of civility here on the TML.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I myself have stumbled several times in my few weeks here.&nbsp; I foolishly <BR>posted to the religion/evolution donneybrook not once once, but twice.&nbsp; I <BR>kicked off a rather strident "deep space fuel cache" discussion and gave <BR>Shaggy3D the rough edge of my tongue.&nbsp; Just recently, I managed to <BR>greviously insult one the founders and leading lights of all Olde Our Game <BR>with a flippant and thoughtless remark.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hardly the actions of a man of civility and tact.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; We may be sure that the members of the list treat one another with <BR>dignity and respect because they are adults, and not because of some <BR>purported effect my meager presence might have.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The only effect my presence seems to have on people is a slight <BR>quivering of their nostrils before they surruptitiously check the bottom of <BR>their shoes for canine feces.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:48:36 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Every time I see this subject line, I wonder who it is.<BR><BR>&gt; Kiri ^_^<BR><BR>Well, Kiri, I'm sure you'd be able to find *someone* on the list that'd<BR>let you buy them. I'd offer, but I don't want to relocate. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:53:41 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Problem is, I haven't the slightest clue on how to run a play by email<BR>&gt; campaign like that.&nbsp; Hell, I'm having problems trying to figure out how to<BR>&gt; bring FAR TRADER to the computer for long term use.&nbsp; I just realized that<BR>&gt; the size of the database now has to utilize 400+ records, each with 1200<BR>&gt; elements (hex ID along with Average Trade Volume and Average Passenger<BR>&gt; Volume)!<BR><BR>So? I used to support some folks running dBase files that had dozens of<BR>fields and around 100k records. Whever they did an update, you could<BR>*see* the performance hit. We finally moved their databases onto a<BR>seperate file server.<BR><BR>And this was back when 640 meg was still a big drive.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:52:50 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: HTML gibberish<BR><BR>On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:39:56 EST GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:<BR>&gt; Gentles<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's? <BR>&gt; (just to <BR>&gt; pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any special <BR>&gt; steps to <BR>&gt; prevent it. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; LKW<BR><BR>It's showing up fine, at least on my monitor.<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:13:19 -0800<BR>From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>&gt;From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: fencing<BR>...<BR>&gt;&gt;Even during the Napoleonic and US civil wars,<BR>&gt;&gt;bayonets were rarely used (at least according to the number of bayonet<BR>&gt;&gt;wounds recorded by field surgeons).<BR><BR>/old joke/ after being bayonetted they usually don't make it<BR>to aid stations...&nbsp; /old joke/<BR><BR>&gt;I thought bayonets were more of a *defensive* weapon, at least during<BR>&gt;the Napoleonic wars.&nbsp; They were used to fend off horses when the<BR>&gt;batallion formed square...&nbsp; For actually dealing wounds to the enemy,<BR>&gt;you'd use musket fire, artillery and/or cavalry sabres.<BR><BR>&nbsp; They're more of the mechanism of the infantry shock alternative<BR>to fire; the defensive appearance is due to the lack of an option<BR>of carrying shock to enemy cavalry.<BR><BR>Not that smoothbores didn't give cavalry the option of staying safe :&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Steven Hudson<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:21:17 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)<BR><BR>On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:00:19 -0600, Terry Mixon &lt;tmixon@ghg.net&gt;<BR>wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;JR Holmes wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; That's exactly the sort of software that a functional trader would<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; want to have running on his ship's computer.&nbsp; But that is just the<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; basic version of the software.&nbsp; Later versions would include a way of<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; indexing those jumps cross-indexed by the cost of jump fuel as<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; reported on each stop's fuel status reports for other planets.<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;As well as what commodities were avalable and which were in demand, so<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;he could trade along the way.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Well, that would make it just too easy.&nbsp; If all merchants used that<BR>&gt;&gt; software exclusively, they certainly wouldn't feel like a "free<BR>&gt;&gt; trader", they'd end up taking all their cargo instructions from their<BR>&gt;&gt; routing program.&nbsp; I would rather keep my merchant owners looking at<BR>&gt;&gt; the program results and then using their own intuition to vary from<BR>&gt;&gt; that optimal route in order to take a plum cargo to that planet just a<BR>&gt;&gt; single jump detour away.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Imagine the hoopla if a hacker deleted juicy spots trade info and<BR>&gt;inserted non interesting trade info? Talk about sewing up the competition.<BR><BR>Were I in a position to do that, I would hold off on doing that until<BR>a single big score was available.&nbsp; This is not the sort of thing which<BR>could be done more than once or twice before suspicion was aroused.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:23:20 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A good parallel for us might be the dairy price supports championed by<BR>&gt; Sen. Proxmire.&nbsp; Intially meant to ensure that milk would available for<BR>&gt; children (a cynical motive if there ever was one), they have slowly driven<BR>&gt; smaller dairies out of the marketplace be reducing profit margins.<BR><BR>There have been screwed up dairy laws in this country since day zero.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:24:08 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR><BR>On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:37:00 +1100, "Robert O'Connor"<BR>&lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Jeff Greenly wrote :-<BR>&gt;&lt;Describes violent volcanic pre-conditions&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I am especially interested in weather conditions.<BR>&gt;Temperature drops due to the suspended ejecta have been talked about.<BR>&gt;I don't know what sort of climate you're shooting for, so you may want to<BR>&gt;limit this effect.<BR>&gt;Ignoring particulates, your list of gases includes 2 very potent greenhouse<BR>&gt;ones (CO2/SO2). These will limit any fall in average temperatures in the<BR>&gt;long run.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The sky will look orange-reddish rather than blue due to scattering of<BR>&gt;sunlight from the suspended ash.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The effect on rainfall will be driven by cooling effects rather than<BR>&gt;particle nucleation per se. The pH of the rain will be lower in and around<BR>&gt;the fallout plumes of the volcanoes (e.g. dissolved sulphuric acid). This<BR>&gt;will have effects on plant life, soil and ground water quality (and even the<BR>&gt;pH and salinity of the oceans, if large enough). Erosion will be<BR>&gt;accelerated, but the local geology may well compensate for this, given the<BR>&gt;volcanic activity.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Thunderstorms, etc. are less likely in the long term as the transfer of heat<BR>&gt;energy from the atmosphere to the ocean is reduced (more reflected into<BR>&gt;space by the dust). It looks like there will eventually be positive feedback<BR>&gt;effects on climate once ocean circulation changes if the dust levels in the<BR>&gt;atmosphere persist. In other words, things could continue to get colder and<BR>&gt;colder until everything freezes over. As I've written above, though, the<BR>&gt;CO2/SO2 in the atmosphere will put brakes on this (but it might not be<BR>&gt;enough)...<BR>&gt;&lt;SNIP&gt;&lt;<BR>This brings up the possibility represented by a recent theory<BR>regarding the early Earth's climate.&nbsp; Per this theory (which I'm<BR>unfortunately unable to cite), the Earth would swing between two<BR>extremes of climate.<BR><BR>Extreme One was characterized by an ice-world appearance. Once the ice<BR>caps exceeded approximately the 45th parallel, the effect became<BR>self-reinforcing and the planet rapidly became ice covered.<BR><BR>This resulted in a long period of decreased reduction of atmospheric<BR>CO2 as plant activity was minimal and the natural precipitation as CO2<BR>was bound into rock was minimized due to cold temperature and little<BR>exposed surface rock to act upon.<BR><BR>With the continual addition of CO2 (and other gases) from volcanic<BR>sources, CO2 levels are thought to have slowly increased far above<BR>modern levels.&nbsp; This in turn caused the expected greenhouse effect,<BR>which eventually brought about:<BR><BR>Extreme Two begins when the increasing temperatures caused by the<BR>greenhouse effect overwhelm the ice covering and melt the ice,<BR>eventually completely.&nbsp; This brings back photosynthetic life in an<BR>extremely favorable environment of high CO2 and elevated temperature,<BR>plus the elevated temperature promotes the chemical binding of CO2<BR>into rock.&nbsp; This activity slowly decreases the elevated greenhouse<BR>effect and reduces the average temperature.<BR><BR>Eventually CO2 is reduced to the point that the ice returns and the<BR>cycle begins again.<BR><BR>What surprised the investigators was the comparatively rapid swings<BR>between these extremes that their models suggested.&nbsp; The cycle time,<BR>IIRC, was little more than 100 years.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:42:33 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>"David P. Summers" wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; At 10:04 PM -0600 2/19/01, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.<BR>&gt; &gt;With a goal to create a Federal Republic type<BR>&gt; &gt;system.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Communications are too slow to really support such a system.<BR><BR>[Formal Adversarial Mode]<BR><BR>Sir, you are welcome to your opinion but I believe it shows<BR>a lack of creativity or at least a closed view on the matter.<BR>And there may be a significant amount of actual history that<BR>would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion.&nbsp; For<BR>example, the United States of America until the invention of<BR>the telegraph. Better scholars of a classical bent than I might<BR>provide enlighting information of the Roman example.<BR><BR>Even without resorting to empirical evidence, one might challenge<BR>your assertion on it's own merits.&nbsp; What do you mean by "support"?<BR>Does that mean that it would be impossible to even start such<BR>a political movement?&nbsp; Surely not.&nbsp; Is there a minimum time threshold<BR>at which the observer can conclude the system was support or not?<BR>If so, where is that threshold?&nbsp; A decade?&nbsp; A century?&nbsp; A millenium?<BR><BR>Further, your assertion implies that there is a determinable minimum<BR>speed which may support such a system, whatever that support actually<BR>means.&nbsp; I can only wonder upon what evidence that implication rests<BR>upon, if indeed it has one.&nbsp; And if it does have some empirical basis,<BR>I wonder in what ways that has been challenged or tested.&nbsp; Would<BR>such evidence preclude different conclusions for different cultures in<BR>different settings?&nbsp; I think there is no reasonable rational basis to<BR>conclude that.<BR><BR>My statements, which have led to this digital melee, merely expressed<BR>a desire for a political movement.&nbsp; They contained no conclusions about<BR>the results of that movement, were the movement to actually occur.<BR>Neither did they imply success.&nbsp; Many political movements that fail in<BR>their announced goals and desires nonetheless effect significant change.<BR>One glaringly obvious example that comes to my mind is the attempt<BR>of several states of the U.S.A. to create their own Confederate government<BR>distinct from the Union.&nbsp; Certainly, it failed by any objective measure,<BR>to realize its goals of independence.&nbsp; But the event was the engine for<BR>significant changes in the restored Union.&nbsp; A similar pattern might<BR>result from a democratic revolution.&nbsp; Or it might not.&nbsp; I would be<BR>particularly intrigued by the possible result of a constitutional monarchy,<BR>as some have suggested in other posts, but that's just me.<BR><BR>So, my dear good sir, I hope you will forgive me if I disagree with<BR>your bare assertion and dismiss it in future discussions.<BR><BR>Thank you for your time.<BR><BR>[Informal Aversarial Mode]<BR><BR>Sez you! :-P<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:44:44 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 04:34:53 -0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"<BR>&lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "What were the corn laws?"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mr. Harris,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The Corn Laws were a series of statutes in Britain that forbid the <BR>&gt;importation of corn (what North Americans call wheat) except at certain <BR>&gt;prices and quantities.&nbsp; It was ensure high market prices for home grown <BR>&gt;corn.&nbsp; Seeing as nobles owned most of the farms growing said crop, keeping <BR>&gt;the prices high was in their best interest.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Eventually, the rise in population, coupled with the labor needs of the <BR>&gt;newly indutrialized cities and towns, meant that Britain could no longer <BR>&gt;feed itself (this occurred roughly between 1820 to 1850).&nbsp; Agitation to <BR>&gt;repeal the Corn Laws was actually greater than agitation to allow more men <BR>&gt;to the vote.&nbsp; After all, wheat is bread, and bread is life.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Of course the nobility, and the newly wealthy enscounced in their <BR>&gt;rotten borough seats in the Commons, resisted any efforts to reduce the <BR>&gt;tariffs out of self interest.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; A good parallel for us might be the dairy price supports championed by <BR>&gt;Sen. Proxmire.&nbsp; Intially meant to ensure that milk would available for <BR>&gt;children (a cynical motive if there ever was one), they have slowly driven <BR>&gt;smaller dairies out of the marketplace be reducing profit margins.<BR><BR>Sadly, as a resident of Wisconsin, USA, and as one, who on more than<BR>one occasion voted for Mr. Proxmire (don't ask what kind of<BR>dunderheads were often running against him when I reached voting age),<BR>I must inform you that, though the idea of dairy price supports would<BR>appear to benefit the dairy farmers of Wisconsin, that was not the<BR>case.<BR><BR>The way those dairy price supports were written was to specify higher<BR>minimum prices for milk produced based upon a formula calculating the<BR>distance away from the state of Wisconsin, which had the minimum<BR>supported price.&nbsp; Thus, though Wisconsin farmers were often producing<BR>milk at a lower price than farmers in Florida, for instance, they had<BR>to charge the higher price to Florida purchasers, if any could be<BR>found.&nbsp; This was intended to encourage and support dairy farmers<BR>outside the state of Wisconsin on the theory that milk, being a<BR>perishable product, was better produced close to the consumers.&nbsp; The<BR>price supports did exactly that and promoted a boom in the<BR>construction of dairy farms as far away from Wisconsin as possible.<BR>California is now the largest milk producer in the US.<BR><BR>Thus, we now have the situation, as occurred last summer (and several<BR>others prior to that), where the price for milk in Wisconsin was below<BR>the cost of production.&nbsp; Unfortunately, the capital costs of a dairy<BR>farm require a relatively high minimum expenditure to maintain the<BR>livestock, which greatly penalizes dairy farmers in "bad years".<BR><BR>In recent years, Wisconsin's senators have been trying to _end_ the<BR>dairy price supports rather than extend them.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3719<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, February 21 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3720<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: Corn Laws<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: HTML gibberish<BR>Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR>Democracy and X-boat routes<BR>RE: What could go wrong?<BR>Copyright<BR>Re: Copyright<BR>RE: Copyright Laws<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: A. Bertram Chandler was Re: Civility and Politeness<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:53:12 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:25:57 -0800, hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Due to travel times involved a representative's term lasts untill<BR>&gt;&gt;his/her/it's replacement arrives. Special elections to replace<BR>&gt;&gt;reps who have left office early due to death, resignation,<BR>&gt;&gt;or election to higher parliaments will be held with the next<BR>&gt;&gt;regular election. leaving some seats open for a year or so.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;In an effort to forestall such an event happening, as a lot of legislation<BR>&gt;could be passed in that year, a delegation is sent, not just a<BR>&gt;representative.&nbsp; Said Delegation has the Senator plus his runner up.&nbsp; By<BR>&gt;law, said runner up may not be in the same vicinity as the Representative.<BR>&gt;Assassination aside, this should help keep a planet represented at all times.<BR><BR>As such a Senator, I would probably be more concerned about<BR>assassination by my "runner up" than by anyone else.&nbsp; In many<BR>elections, the "runner up" is the person I was running against...<BR><BR>Now that would be an interesting situation for some court plotting.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 05:53:05 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;There's a gizmo that's been kicking around as a lab prototype for<BR>&gt;&gt;around 20 years now. By using MHD effects, it's possible to make a<BR>&gt;&gt;flame act as a speaker.<BR><BR>&gt;This is way too cool.<BR><BR>About thirty years ago, I actually set up a system in a lab that generated <BR>sound from a flame. I'm desperately trying to remember how we did it. The <BR>set up was not all that complicated. I think it was based on a Scientific <BR>American article. Does anyone have the reference? The sound was not great, <BR>but there was a nice light show to go with it.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:12:32 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; The main gauche, OTOH, was designed specifically to be an off-hand<BR>&gt; &gt; secondary weapon/parrying tool. <BR>&gt; Hence the name "left hand", as opposed to main droite or "right hand"<BR><BR>Hm, do lefthanded fencers use main drite?<BR><BR>- -- <BR>+++++++++[&gt;+++++++++&lt;-]&gt;-.&lt;+++++[&gt;+++&lt;-]++&gt;++.&lt;++[&gt;++++&lt;-]+&gt;+.&lt;++[&gt;----<BR>&lt;-]&gt;-.&gt;+++[&gt;++++++++++&lt;-]++&gt;++pare@iki.fi&lt;+[&gt;++++&lt;-]&gt;+.-&gt;+[&gt;++++[&lt;&lt;---&gt;<BR>&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;.&gt;&gt;+++++++[&lt;++++++++++&gt;-]++++[&lt;+++++&gt;-]&lt;-.&gt;[-]&gt;+++[&gt;++[&lt;&lt;&lt;----&gt;&gt;<BR>&lt;&gt;&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;&lt;.+.&gt;[-]++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;.++.[-]&gt;[-]++++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;++.&gt;&gt;++[&gt;++[&gt;-&lt;-]&lt;--]<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 06:51:54 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Sadly, as a resident of Wisconsin, USA, and as one, who on more than <BR>one occasion voted for Mr. Proxmire (don't ask what kind of<BR>dunderheads were often running against him when I reached voting age),<BR>I must inform you that, though the idea of dairy price supports would<BR>appear to benefit the dairy farmers of Wisconsin, that was not the<BR>case."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Holmes,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; After reading your post, sir, I stand corrected.&nbsp; As is usual with my <BR>posts, I attempted the stretch a bare amount of information, or an incorrect <BR>assessment of such infomation, to make a point.&nbsp; It seems that final <BR>paragraphs of my efforts always seem to get me into so much trouble.&nbsp; <BR>Hopefully, I will learn when to stop typing and thus raise the value of my <BR>posts by decreasing their actual size.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; My incomplete knowledge of federal milk price supports, and my slur of <BR>Sen. Proxmire's support of them, came from a landlord of mine.&nbsp; I rented a&nbsp; <BR>farm house from this gentleman.&nbsp; He would visit occasionally and bemoan the <BR>fact that he and his brother had found it impossible to continue in the <BR>family dairy business.&nbsp;&nbsp; I should of discounted his opinions seeing that he <BR>only visited to collect his check, "borrow" a few beers, and hide from his <BR>wife.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:02:02 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "As such a Senator, I would probably be more concerned about<BR>assassination by my "runner up" than by anyone else.&nbsp; In many elections, the <BR>"runner up" is the person I was running against..."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Now that would be an interesting situation for some court plotting."<BR><BR><BR>Gentlemen,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I too have problems with both the "winner" and the "runner-up" being <BR>sent along to legislature.&nbsp; The possiblilty of either party assassinating <BR>the other would be too great.&nbsp; The "runner-up" would be very tempted to <BR>"win" the election by other means and the "winner" could be toying with the <BR>idea of a "pre-emptive" assassination.&nbsp; When one adds the other candidates, <BR>some of who might stoop to an "untimely" death in order to promote <BR>themselves, the situation gets becomes frought with intrigue.&nbsp; Good for role <BR>playing perhaps, but poor for governments.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The US Constitution originally had a mechanism like this for the <BR>presidency and vice presidency; the runner-up of the presidential vote <BR>became the vice president.&nbsp; Fortunately, this provision was quickly amended <BR>before national politics got too "hinky".<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:04:23 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Hence the name "left hand", as opposed to main droite or "right hand"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Hm, do lefthanded fencers use main drite?"<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Shame on you!&nbsp; What a very sinister idea!<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:27:46 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Corn Laws<BR><BR>&gt;From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;What were the corn laws?<BR><BR>Basically, Britain wasnt allowed to import food.<BR><BR>This worked to the benefit of the Tory landowners, and against everybody else.<BR><BR>"Cheap Bread" was one of the great election slogans of 19th century Britain.<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:35:45 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>At 11:42 PM -0600 2/20/01, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>&gt;"David P. Summers" wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; At 10:04 PM -0600 2/19/01, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &gt;A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &gt;With a goal to create a Federal Republic type<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &gt;system.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Communications are too slow to really support such a system.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;[Formal Adversarial Mode]<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Sir, you are welcome to your opinion but I believe it shows<BR>&gt;a lack of creativity or at least a closed view on the matter.<BR><BR>Actually, this view is the basis for why the Imperium was given a <BR>feudal system.&nbsp; The view, as I understand it, was the communications <BR>would make a difference in government types and that governments were <BR>modeled on the Spanish and Roman Empires.&nbsp; So, in a way, this point <BR>is "canonical".&nbsp; (Do I get the "finding why my view is canon" prize <BR>:-).<BR><BR>As to creativity, I don't find a modern western democracy that novel. <BR>I do think the idea that I posted about introducing fast <BR>communications could be done interestingly.&nbsp; One could explore how <BR>new technologies reshape environments.&nbsp; At first the establishment <BR>would see it as a way to reinforce the current system.&nbsp; But then new <BR>consequences would come in; Would the Emperor seek to pull the local <BR>noble more directly under his rule?&nbsp; Would the nobles respond (maybe <BR>like the Magna Carta)?&nbsp; How would other parties seek to use the new <BR>technology?&nbsp; Would you have a internet spring up?<BR><BR>&gt;And there may be a significant amount of actual history that<BR>&gt;would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion.&nbsp; For<BR>&gt;example, the United States of America until the invention of<BR>the telegraph.<BR><BR>In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the Imperium faces.<BR><BR>&gt;Better scholars of a classical bent than I might<BR>&gt;provide enlighting information of the Roman example.<BR><BR>The Roman Empire is an example of how a Republic couldn't maintain a <BR>democracy over the stresses.&nbsp; Though, IIRC, Rome did not try and <BR>extend democracy to all its territories, so the size of the area that <BR>they tried to keep the Republic for was smaller than the size of <BR>empire.<BR><BR>&gt;Even without resorting to empirical evidence, one might challenge<BR>&gt;your assertion on it's own merits.&nbsp; What do you mean by "support"?<BR>&gt;Does that mean that it would be impossible to even start such<BR>&gt;a political movement?&nbsp; Surely not.<BR><BR>See my other reply....<BR><BR>&gt;My statements, which have led to this digital melee, merely expressed<BR>&gt;a desire for a political movement.&nbsp; They contained no conclusions about<BR>&gt;the results of that movement, were the movement to actually occur.<BR>&gt;Neither did they imply success.&nbsp; Many political movements that fail in<BR>&gt;their announced goals and desires nonetheless effect significant change.<BR><BR>One could see a movement for democracy in regions.&nbsp; I think slow <BR>communications are going to end up preventing a popular movement from <BR>mainting cohesiveness and the diversity of localities is going to <BR>mean the reception is going to be different on differnt worlds.&nbsp; That <BR>say to me that if the Imperium is weak enough that popular movements <BR>can bring it down, it will mostly likely just fall apart.<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:51:33 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR><BR>Well, two signs of old age. Not only can't I remember the details of how we <BR>set up the "musical flame", but now I'm answering my own questions. The <BR>process we used involved injecting a salt solution into the base of a gas <BR>flame and then running a modulated current through the flame. The Scientific <BR>American article would have been in the "Amateur Scientist" around 1968 or <BR>69. The flame would pulse with the music. I'll try to find the article.<BR><BR>This approach using rocket engines in test stands would provide a super <BR>sound system for a Traveller-era band. I also have visions of rockets <BR>lifting off to the sounds of their own musical accompaniment!<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;There's a gizmo that's been kicking around as a lab prototype for<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;around 20 years now. By using MHD effects, it's possible to make a<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;flame act as a speaker.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;This is way too cool.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;About thirty years ago, I actually set up a system in a lab that generated<BR>&gt;sound from a flame. I'm desperately trying to remember how we did it. The<BR>&gt;set up was not all that complicated. I think it was based on a Scientific<BR>&gt;American article. Does anyone have the reference? The sound was not great,<BR>&gt;but there was a nice light show to go with it.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;John<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;_________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt;Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 03:02:52 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt;Gentlemen,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I too have problems with both the "winner" and the "runner-up" being <BR>&gt;sent along to legislature.&nbsp; The possiblilty of either party assassinating <BR>&gt;the other would be too great.&nbsp; The "runner-up" would be very tempted to <BR>&gt;"win" the election by other means and the "winner" could be toying with the <BR>&gt;idea of a "pre-emptive" assassination.&nbsp; When one adds the other candidates, <BR>&gt;some of who might stoop to an "untimely" death in order to promote <BR>&gt;themselves, the situation gets becomes frought with intrigue.&nbsp; Good for role <BR>&gt;playing perhaps, but poor for governments.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The US Constitution originally had a mechanism like this for the <BR>&gt;presidency and vice presidency; the runner-up of the presidential vote <BR>&gt;became the vice president.&nbsp; Fortunately, this provision was quickly amended <BR>&gt;before national politics got too "hinky".<BR><BR>Esteemed Plotters,<BR>&nbsp; I see that I mispoke, which means Politics and I shall never mix in a<BR>manner satisfactory to myself.&nbsp; I should have pointed out, that it was not<BR>meant that the "runner up" of the election would be part of the delegation,<BR>but that the Delegation would have a Senator, and a "back up" individual.<BR>Such an individual may be appointed by the winning Senator himself, or such<BR>an individual might be appointed by the world in general.&nbsp; The "runner up"<BR>aspect was meant to convey an immediate replacement.&nbsp; Of course, the<BR>"plotting" aspect would prove to be interesting per se, but that in reality<BR>- - such a replacement should be someone the senator himself/herself trusts.<BR>By making it that they are always in reserve means that more than likely,<BR>the person who is the back up senator is making a lot of public relations<BR>visits and the like.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:32:46 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: HTML gibberish<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Gentles<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's? (just to <BR>&gt; pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any special steps to <BR>&gt; prevent it. <BR><BR>Your posts are fine. Just *don't* upgrade to AOL 6.0 software!<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:59:48 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; This brings up the possibility represented by a recent theory<BR>&gt; regarding the early Earth's climate.&nbsp; Per this theory (which I'm<BR>&gt; unfortunately unable to cite), the Earth would swing between two<BR>&gt; extremes of climate.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Extreme One was characterized by an ice-world appearance. Once the ice<BR>&gt; caps exceeded approximately the 45th parallel, the effect became<BR>&gt; self-reinforcing and the planet rapidly became ice covered.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This resulted in a long period of decreased reduction of atmospheric<BR>&gt; CO2 as plant activity was minimal and the natural precipitation as CO2<BR>&gt; was bound into rock was minimized due to cold temperature and little<BR>&gt; exposed surface rock to act upon.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; With the continual addition of CO2 (and other gases) from volcanic<BR>&gt; sources, CO2 levels are thought to have slowly increased far above<BR>&gt; modern levels.&nbsp; This in turn caused the expected greenhouse effect,<BR>&gt; which eventually brought about:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Extreme Two begins when the increasing temperatures caused by the<BR>&gt; greenhouse effect overwhelm the ice covering and melt the ice,<BR>&gt; eventually completely.&nbsp; This brings back photosynthetic life in an<BR>&gt; extremely favorable environment of high CO2 and elevated temperature,<BR>&gt; plus the elevated temperature promotes the chemical binding of CO2<BR>&gt; into rock.&nbsp; This activity slowly decreases the elevated greenhouse<BR>&gt; effect and reduces the average temperature.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Eventually CO2 is reduced to the point that the ice returns and the<BR>&gt; cycle begins again.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; What surprised the investigators was the comparatively rapid swings<BR>&gt; between these extremes that their models suggested.&nbsp; The cycle time,<BR>&gt; IIRC, was little more than 100 years.<BR><BR>No, the tranistion from "normal temp" to "complete iceage" was a<BR>century or so. And the transition from "complete ice age" to "super<BR>tropical" and then back to normal was also only a few 100 years. <BR><BR>But the "complete ice age" and "normal" stages lasted tens of thousands<BR>of years. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 03:57:31 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Democracy and X-boat routes<BR><BR>See - this is where most of you lose me...<BR><BR>As I see it, any government would work within the Imperium provided the<BR>following holds true:<BR><BR>a) local governments oversee day to day events.&nbsp; The analogy here would be<BR>townships (despite the fact we are talking about an entire planet).&nbsp; The<BR>fact that the Overlords (be it a democratic government or Fuedalistic one)<BR>have space travel and radio communications means that the "global village"<BR>syndrome would come into being rather quickly for less fortunate tech level<BR>worlds, and is meaningless for higher tech level worlds (they already have<BR>lightning fast communications).<BR><BR>b) relatively local regional (in this case, a subsector or perhaps 1/2<BR>subsector) requires that this level of government be responsive to level<BR>A's needs, yet answer to the higher ups in the chain of command.&nbsp; This<BR>would be similar to a state or Province.&nbsp; It co-ordinates the activity of a<BR>lot of smaller governments into a larger unit.<BR><BR>c) the overall level of government sees to it, that the subsectors do not<BR>squable amongst themselves, and insures that all laws are applied in an<BR>even handed manner.&nbsp; This is the layer that supercedes layer B.&nbsp; This is<BR>the layer that can mobilize other subsectors or sectors against one sector<BR>that is misbehaving and breaking the rules.&nbsp; This is also, generally<BR>speaking, the layer with the least speed of reaction to events within the<BR>body of stars.&nbsp; As such, it tends to be a conservative type organization.<BR>It is also one that responds directly to the needs of the wealthy.&nbsp; Layer B<BR>also reacts to the needs of the wealthy, but it is in Layer C that the<BR>wealthy influence the rest of the body of civilization.<BR><BR>C watches over B, B in turn watches over A and it makes certain that the<BR>mundane administrative tasks from A don't reach up to C unless it is truely<BR>outside the scope of... "THE BOOK" or the rules on how things are done.<BR><BR>&nbsp; My point is, that it doesn't seem to make a difference whether the head<BR>of Layer C is a president, a Council, a Senate, or an Emperor.&nbsp; All that is<BR>required is that the layer C controls Layer B, which in turn controls Layer A.<BR><BR>As for communications lag?&nbsp; Let me ask you all this:<BR><BR>What is the shortest amount of time it takes for a message to travel from<BR>the Capital of the Imperium to the Spinward Marches?&nbsp; Does anyone believe<BR>that the "canon" time of communications can be shaved by up to 25% without<BR>even really trying?&nbsp; Does anyone believe that it can be done in 50% of the<BR>stated time assuming that J-4 ships are used along with Deep Space depots?<BR><BR>&nbsp; I for one, believe after looking at the Spinward Marches map, and seeing<BR>too many 1 parsec interval destination on an X-boat route, that it can be<BR>done much faster than canon seems to imply is the norm.<BR>I don't really see communications as being an issue in the realm of<BR>government.&nbsp; If it is too slow in a "democratic" society, I figure it is<BR>likely to be too slow in *any* government.&nbsp; All in all, I see it primarily<BR>as an issue of relative autonomy.&nbsp; Too much micromanagement by the top<BR>layer, along with communications delay - and you have a recipe for disaster<BR>for any kind of organization - be it military, financial, or governmental.<BR>Manage in layers or tiers, and you get a structure that is not too<BR>dissimilar to the chain of command for just about any organization in<BR>existance today... (or so my simple mind seems to think).<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:00:03 -0000<BR>From: "Antony Farrell" &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>Well my players always knew they had a serious problem when the ships<BR>microwave oven broke down. Then there was the perennial favourite the<BR>flickering fluoro (or similar) which no amount of tinkering with either the<BR>light or the wiring seemed to be able to fix.<BR><BR>Then for the really sadistic undiagnosed metal fatigue beneath the mounting<BR>holding an essential piece of equipment in place (i.e. the power plant,<BR>maneuver drive etc.)<BR><BR>Then there is the problem of the stuck door on the fuel scoop intake. Then<BR>don't forget the atmosphere (no not the life support), but creaking doors,<BR>sounds of groaning metal every time the ship accelerates, changes vector<BR>etc.<BR><BR>Then how about power spikes every time the jump drive is activated, perhaps<BR>not enough for a mis-jump, but certainly enough to cause concern.<BR><BR>Or their is the hairline crack in a bulk head or hull (I'd use and interior<BR>one) mention things such as faulty alloy or crystal iron delaminating.<BR><BR>Enjoy<BR><BR>Antony<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:14:13 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Paul_K=FCnnap?= &lt;kuennap@mappi.helsinki.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: Copyright<BR><BR>&gt; Gentlemen,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks thread mentioned <BR>&gt;&nbsp; copyright laws, specifically the fact that most nations ignore US statutes <BR>&gt;&nbsp; in that area.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address this please?&nbsp; What is <BR>&gt;&nbsp; wrong about the US take on copyright protections that the rest of the world <BR>&gt;&nbsp; simply ignores them?&nbsp; Or is the idea that US copyright law is "incorrect" <BR>&gt;&nbsp; just a handy fig leaf to explain away widespread software, video, music, <BR>&gt; and any other type of media piracy?<BR><BR>Most of the time your explanation for ignoring is correct, still most of the <BR>world have similar copyright law to US (there is a difference regarding moral <BR>rights between the European understanding and US understanding). There is a <BR>real problem with the copyright law as well.<BR><BR>The principles of copyright law was developed in Europe in the age when <BR>copyright problems primarily dealt with people printing books without paying <BR>the authors. Originally US was against any such thing, but when piracy began to <BR>hamper US movie industry this changed. With the advent of computer age the same <BR>copyright was applied to software as for anything else without much thought. <BR>Originally it was thought that computers are so marginal phenomen that it <BR>requires no special treatment.<BR><BR>As is evident today copyright law requires a complete overhaul especially as <BR>related to computer software. Rules designed for printed books that have to <BR>exist physically just don't work with electronic media. Unfortunately any <BR>attempt to rethink the rules are objected fiercely by established software <BR>companies who think its a threat to their position.<BR><BR>I don't actually have the answer for how copyright issues should be resolved, <BR>but I'm pretty certain 3i universe would have very different copyright law.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 03:42:42 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Copyright<BR><BR>Paul Knnap wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; The principles of copyright law was developed in Europe in the age when<BR>&gt; copyright problems primarily dealt with people printing books without paying<BR>&gt; the authors. Originally US was against any such thing, but when piracy began to<BR>&gt; hamper US movie industry this changed.<BR><BR>I think the existance of US copyright law prior to the invention of<BR>movies counters your view pretty well.<BR><BR>Copyright laws came about when printing and publishing costs<BR>got so low that it was cheaper to copy what someone else wrote<BR>and put a new title on it, than to pay anyone to write something<BR>new.&nbsp; Essentially, industrial revolution era.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:18:10 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Copyright Laws<BR><BR>Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; As they should&nbsp; US laws are very relevant in other countries.<BR><BR>But only because the US likes to enforce it's laws overseas by sending armed<BR>men and helicopters over into soveriegn countries to drag non-US citizens<BR>back to the US to stand trial under US law, in clear breach of the soverign<BR>rights of the countries and citizens involved.<BR><BR>Or bully other governments into voluntarily handing over their own citizens<BR>for breaking US law, even though what they did was not illegal in their home<BR>country, and they had never ever been in the US, or carried out that act on<BR>US soil.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 04:10:36 -0000<BR>From: "Ben Aaronovitch" &lt;bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>There are just oodles of story plots and adventure hooks in such a system.<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR>'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: &lt;hal@buffnet.net&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 5:25 AM<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Due to travel times involved a representative's term lasts untill<BR>&gt; &gt;his/her/it's replacement arrives. Special elections to replace<BR>&gt; &gt;reps who have left office early due to death, resignation,<BR>&gt; &gt;or election to higher parliaments will be held with the next<BR>&gt; &gt;regular election. leaving some seats open for a year or so.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In an effort to forestall such an event happening, as a lot of legislation<BR>&gt; could be passed in that year, a delegation is sent, not just a<BR>&gt; representative.&nbsp; Said Delegation has the Senator plus his runner up.&nbsp; By<BR>&gt; law, said runner up may not be in the same vicinity as the Representative.<BR>&gt; Assassination aside, this should help keep a planet represented at all times.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:10:40 +0000<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: A. Bertram Chandler was Re: Civility and Politeness<BR><BR>on 17/2/01 12:47 pm, Charles Nicholas Walker at cnw@globalnet.co.uk wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Where abouts are you in the UK Gordon? I have about 10 of his books and if<BR>&gt; you are near we could lend each other ones we have not read! here are the<BR>&gt; titles I have<BR><BR>I'm in Portsmouth, but only for another week. On Thursday, the movers are<BR>coming to pack up all my stuff and ship it to America. So thanks for the<BR>offer, but its a bit impractical just now.<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:47:22 -0000<BR>From: "Ben Aaronovitch" &lt;bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>I prefer a well trained professional army for the close in work. For longer<BR>ranged work a Navy and Air Force can also be handy.<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR>'Ah well, that's what young men are for..'<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Adolph Hitler upon reading a particularly<BR>heavy casualty list.<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Rupert Boleyn &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 10:41 PM<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; On 20 Feb 2001, at 11:39, Pat Connaughton wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,<BR>&gt; &gt; better for close in work.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I always preferred an M16 - good from 0 to 400 metres. For longer ranged work<BR>a<BR>&gt; LSW is nice, they're good from 5 to 600 metres. :)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:08:28 -0000<BR>From: "Ben Aaronovitch" &lt;bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR><BR>And with that system you could play 'Ride of the Valkyries' during those tricky<BR>planetary assaults.<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR>'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Leonard Erickson &lt;shadow@krypton.rain.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 8:11 AM<BR>Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR><BR><BR>&gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &lt;Snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Evil thought of the week.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; There's a gizmo that's been kicking around as a lab prototype for<BR>&gt; around 20 years now. By using MHD effects, it's possible to make a<BR>&gt; flame act as a speaker.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I'd previously suggested using rocket engines as the source of the<BR>&gt; "flame". But it occurs to me that a bad like Disaster area might be<BR>&gt; using ship-mounted plasma weapons, or maybe HEPlaR drives as speakers.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Picture a band that doesn't use speaker towers, instead, they have<BR>&gt; these "things" the size of a small ship, that have to be sited on<BR>&gt; reinforced concrete pads and produce sound from jets of blinding flame<BR>&gt; half a kilometer long. At power levels that require a 1 km safety zone<BR>&gt; around them.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; They don't "set up" the sound system, they *land* them. :-)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; -------------------<BR>&gt; Notice to Spacefarers&nbsp;&nbsp; 1105-075<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Antares Down will be closed to traffic from 18:00 to 25:00 local time<BR>&gt; on 1105-100 due to a concert by Near-C. Antares STC will broadcast<BR>&gt; notices of exclusion zones for the bands sound checks during the week<BR>&gt; preceeding this date.<BR>&gt; -------------------<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hey, where else are they going to find enough open space with<BR>&gt; facilities "hardened" against that sort of noise levels?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>&gt;&nbsp; shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>&gt; leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3720<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, February 21 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3721<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: What could go wrong?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Space as it should have been...<BR>Re: Shrieker World<BR>Re: Copyright Laws<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Copyright Laws<BR>Re: Copyright Laws<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: What could go wrong?<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: A Lucky Find?<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: Don't run...<BR>Re: Don't run...<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:19:06 GMT<BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>Subject: Re: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR><BR>&gt;ideas.&nbsp; What else can go wrong that is annoying - potentially alarming,<BR>&gt;even demoralizing, yet not deadly enough to make a ship become rated as<BR>&gt;"unsafe".<BR><BR>A software glitch in the sensor system means that when the ship<BR>attempts to query another vessel's transponder, it also brings the<BR>fire control ladar on-line and locks up the target vessel...<BR><BR>Problems in the environmental controls result in a high level of<BR>condensation in the hold.&nbsp; This can spoil delicate cargoes, might<BR>result in the ship running low on drinking water, and gives the ship<BR>that evocative "Nostromo" atmosphere...<BR><BR>Linked to that idea - perhaps some form of vermin has made its home on<BR>board the ship?&nbsp; Maybe even something that has a vacuum-resistant<BR>dormant form (its eggs?) to prevent the players coming up with the<BR>obvious solution to their problem.<BR><BR>Stephen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:19:02 GMT<BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>"Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;There's really only one example of noblesse oblige that worked reasonably <BR>&gt;well in world history, the British one from about 1700-1900. And anyone who <BR>&gt;thinks there weren't *numerous* exceptions for the benefit of the upper <BR>&gt;class even in that case needs to take a close look at the Corn Laws again.<BR><BR>The French must also have had at least some idea of the concept,<BR>otherwise it would be expressed as "nobility obliges" rather than<BR>"noblesse oblige"...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;People are people, king or cat, and a large fraction of them wil always look <BR>&gt;out for number one.<BR><BR>I've never suggested otherwise.&nbsp; However, it's one thing to be a noble<BR>enjoying the benefits of a society where the deck's stacked in your<BR>favour.&nbsp; It's quite another to engage in blatant corruption and<BR>favouritism, on the level of some of the ideas in this thread ("Nice<BR>estate you've ...er... I mean I've got here").&nbsp; That's the kind of<BR>thing that *can* be limited by social pressure, if the key influencers<BR>and power-mongers in society strongly disapprove of such behaviour.<BR><BR>Of course, you can still do whatever you like _as long as you don't<BR>get caught_ .&nbsp; But that makes things more interesting for gamers.<BR>Uncovering evidence that Marquis X is taking kickbacks from SuSAG and<BR>bringing this to the attention of the Duke makes for a good adventure<BR>scenario - but this wouldn't work if the Duke was likely to shrug his<BR>shoulders and say "So what?&nbsp; I'm on LSP's payroll myself"...<BR><BR>Naturally, in this vision of Imperial law the Marquis may not face a<BR>formal trial for corruption.&nbsp; It wouldn't be a police matter (so, even<BR>more scope for PCs' "informal" involvement).&nbsp; But, he'd be in<BR>disgrace, his judgement would be called into question by his feudal<BR>superiors, he'd lose all chances of preferment in the Imperial<BR>service, ex-friends would cut him dead in the street (1), his family<BR>would never get invited to parties again, and in the end he may find<BR>himself driven into taking that pearl-handled revolver into the<BR>billiard room...<BR><BR>Stephen<BR><BR>(1) That's "Cut him dead" in the sense of "Totally ignore his presence<BR>when he goes over to say hello" rather than "Draw a Marine cutlass and<BR>chop his head off."<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:31:28 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt;From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>&gt;&gt;"Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt; writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;There's really only one example of noblesse oblige that worked reasonably <BR>&gt;&gt;well in world history, the British one from about 1700-<BR>&gt;&gt;1900.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The French must also have had at least some idea of the concept,<BR>&gt;otherwise it would be expressed as "nobility obliges" rather than<BR>&gt;"noblesse oblige"...<BR><BR>Idea, sure. Did it work? I think it's fair to say "no". Corruption and <BR>venality were the bywords of ancien regime France, hence the French <BR>Revolution.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:52:41 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Space as it should have been...<BR><BR>This talk of Senator Proxmire reminds of the the Niven classic short story, <BR>"The Return of William Proxmire."<BR><BR>The Admiral had the right idea....<BR>- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/&nbsp; Opinions Mine!<BR>Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?<BR>Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.<BR>(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)<BR>- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:46:15 +0000<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Shrieker World<BR><BR>on 21/2/01 12:48 am, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Did the gravity of the world inhabited by the Shriekers in District 268 ever<BR>&gt; make it into official print? I don't have the relevant adventure available<BR>&gt; right now . . .<BR><BR>Not other than 'low'. As in: "The major effects on the evolution of local<BR>life forms have been the world's very thin atmosphere and its low gravity".<BR><BR>Do you want some OCR scans of the world and shrieker info? Were the pictures<BR>of any use?<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>PS: You should be able to get office dispensation to buy copies of the FFE<BR>books in your line of work, shouldn't you? All I've ever managed is dull<BR>technical manuals, but your work bookshelf could be interesting to stock. ;)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:00:34 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Copyright Laws<BR><BR>My statement should have read "irrelevant".<BR><BR>:-)<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote :<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; As they should&nbsp; US laws are very relevant in other countries.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; But only because the US likes to enforce it's laws overseas<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:01:59 -0500<BR>From: "Samuel D. Weiss" &lt;samwise1@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt;The Roman Empire is an example of how a Republic couldn't maintain a<BR>democracy over the stresses.&nbsp; Though, IIRC, Rome did not try and<BR>extend democracy to all its territories, so the size of the area that<BR>they tried to keep the Republic for was smaller than the size of<BR>empire.&lt;<BR><BR>In what way was Rome a Democracy?<BR>Even the Republic was an oligarchy and not a republic. Further, the increase<BR>in size after the Punic Wars is directly responsible for its conversion from<BR>Oligarchy to Dictatorship. Lastly, with the road system they had travel<BR>times were significantly lower than you might think. The legions that<BR>responded to the Zealot Revolt made it to Jerusalem from Rome in a few<BR>months. You would have trouble transporting two divisions that quickly these<BR>days.<BR>Maybe the concepts behind a feodality should be examined and stressed more<BR>first.<BR><BR><BR>Sam<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:31:00 -0800<BR>From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>Subject: RE: Copyright Laws<BR><BR>...<BR>&gt;Or bully other governments into voluntarily handing over their own citizens<BR>&gt;for breaking US law, even though what they did was not illegal in their home<BR>&gt;country, and they had never ever been in the US, or carried out that act on<BR>&gt;US soil.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Luckily the ObTravs are obvious :)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:43:56 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Copyright Laws<BR><BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "My statement should have read "irrelevant"."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote :"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "As they should&nbsp; US laws are very relevant in other countries."<BR><BR><BR>Bloo,<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; How very odd.&nbsp; I originally read it AS "irrelevant", but there it is <BR>quite clearly spelled "relevant".<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Perception is reality.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:00:21 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt; Federal Republic!&nbsp;&nbsp; Ugh!!!!!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Constitutional Monarchy... Now THAT'S the way to go!<BR>&gt; Why a Constitutional Monarchy?<BR>&gt; Five reasons;<BR>&gt; 1. Easier transition<BR>&gt; 2. People need a symbol which can transcend planetary/regional<BR>&gt; patriotism<BR><BR>[snip]<BR><BR>I suspect that given time, most constitutional monarchies will evolve into<BR>parlimentary or federal repulics as the monarch becomes more and more<BR>irrelavent. The whole idea that lineage denotes superiority is archaic<BR>(unless we are talking eugenics here).&nbsp; And I, for one, find it ridiculous<BR>that anyone should receive special treatment based on their 'caste'.<BR>Biologically, we are all the same, after all.<BR><BR>I certainly wouldn't suggest taking the opposite track (pure democracy)<BR>however.&nbsp; My personal favorite synonym for democracy is 'mob rule'.<BR><BR>And the idea that a republic is not a fertile ground for adventuring just<BR>shows a lack of imagination.&nbsp; I'm currently running a game in the Rim (My<BR>Solomani have pretty much eliminated the archaic concept of class) where the<BR>political factions are counted by the score.&nbsp; Politics, intrigue and all<BR>without a single noble.<BR><BR>I suspect the idea of an Imperial setting for Travelller has more to do with<BR>it's use in science fiction novels and the American fascination with<BR>nobility (since we don't have any). But given the way things are going these<BR>days, I'd say that a corporate Imperium is much more likely.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:03:17 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt; All this take of legal systems and constitutions<BR>&gt; leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want<BR>&gt; to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.<BR>&gt; With a goal to create a Federal Republic type<BR>&gt; system.&nbsp; Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!<BR>&gt; There are ways to do it without following the<BR>&gt; American model.<BR><BR>I'm with you, bloo.&nbsp; But it would require some event to make the people feel<BR>they had nothing to lose by rebelling (or perhaps just a very bad emperor).<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:04:06 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 15:40, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>&gt; Thanks for your comments, Rob.&nbsp; I don't think that the RoM Terrans would<BR>&gt; have any difficulty in making themselves into an hereditary nobility.&nbsp; The<BR>&gt; Ziru Sirka, remember, had a hereditary noble class, so the environment in<BR>&gt; which the Terran and later Rule of Man military governors found themselves<BR>&gt; already contained a working model.&nbsp; Also, Terrans will still have many<BR>&gt; remants of hereditary nobility (and I'm not talking about Dubya) by the<BR><BR>I'm sorry, I don't know Dubya.&nbsp; Can you explain, please?<BR><BR>&gt; time of the conquest.&nbsp; For example, some of the major powers have monarchs<BR>&gt; who trace their lineage back hundreds, if not thousands, of years; England<BR>&gt; and Japan come immediately to mind.&nbsp; <BR><BR>True, true. Good point.<BR><BR>&gt; The situation in the Rule of Man and Long Night eras is notdissimilar<BR>&gt; from Europe in the Dark Ages (not unintentionally, I would think).&nbsp; The<BR><BR>Ah, right, a comparison I'd forgotten about too.&nbsp; And the Roman Empire <BR>was considered by Middle Age people to have been great technologically <BR>and in other areas, but it wasn't TL14+ :) [1]<BR><BR>(There was some occurance in the Traveller timeline that corresponded <BR>to 476AD - the classically pronounced time of death for the Roman <BR>Empire - I forget what it was, but that always caught my attention.)<BR><BR>&gt; Roman Empire had placed military governors to rule over the various<BR>&gt; barbarians from Spain to Britain to Germany to Palestine.&nbsp; As Rome<BR><BR>In those areas not latinized (or to a lesser degree), IIRC, as there <BR>was a fair amount of latinizing in southern and central Gaul, <BR>Narbonensis, southern Spain.<BR><BR>&gt; collapsed, many military governors continued to manage defense and<BR>&gt; economic relations.&nbsp; Their powers had been established by law and the<BR>&gt; Roman army.&nbsp; As Rome fell, they kept their positions out of custom -- and<BR>&gt; political astuteness.&nbsp; By the end of the Middle Ages, custom became law as<BR>&gt; stronger central governments were formed with kings at the head of larger<BR>&gt; regions, and the kings recognized the rights of the nobility.<BR><BR>&nbsp; I read a very interesting book about the "dark ages" (I'll have to <BR>dig out the title) that said that the invading Germanic tribes <BR>(possibly due to a cascading wave of pressure from as far away as <BR>Mongolia - Huns and all that) *wanted* the benefits of Roman society.&nbsp; <BR>Well, many did anyway, especially after years on the move and raiding <BR>civilized areas, they and their leaders (of some tribes I guess, <BR>Marcomanni come to mind) were tired and wanted to settle down.&nbsp; As <BR>Roman presence in the region dimished, they moved in and were able to <BR>take over, but without disturbing the society itself that much, <BR>assuming the roles if not titles of the vacating Roman administration <BR>(and possibly military governors in those areas).&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; It went on to say that in order to defend *themselves* from further <BR>"barbarians" they collected what forces they could around the best <BR>tactical and strategic leaders. These warrior leaders that could defend <BR>and provide best for their people attracted followers - other warriors,<BR>who offered their loyalty and expected the leader to provide them some<BR>benefits (roof, food, battle glory, I think).&nbsp; The basic agricultural <BR>industry in the region changed little, only being ruled by different <BR>masters.&nbsp; Even in the more developed areas the merchants and tradesmen <BR>and their way of life changed not terribly from the Roman rule.&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; As time passed the warrior leaders and their retinue became more <BR>mature, settled down and thus established the beginnings of the feudal <BR>foundations of Europe.&nbsp; Well, that's what the author said (which I've <BR>probably botched in summarizing), and it seemed a scholarly work, and <BR>sounds good to me and I found it very thought-provoking (for me as an <BR>amateur history buff).<BR><BR>&nbsp; I can see the comparison with the Rule of Man - terrans take over, <BR>accept the roles the Vilani 'nobility' had, used their own names for <BR>the roles linking back to ancient European and Oriental traditions, <BR>and had a power base to claim noble status.&nbsp; That kind of sounds like <BR>it started out as a top-down authority (the conquering Terran <BR>Confederation) that mutated into a nobility that had a built in power <BR>base (whatever the power base of the previous vilani nobility was) that <BR>could then be seen as a bottom-up nobility.&nbsp; (As Alan described the <BR>types of nobility a couple of posts ago.)<BR><BR>&nbsp; I think my problem has been probably my "yankee-ness" - imagining US-<BR>type people being sent to govern a Vilani planet and how would they <BR>react to having the native Vilani practically forcing the position of <BR>nobility on them (in some/all cases?).&nbsp; My 20th/21st century yankee <BR>sensibilities would think they'd try to establish some kind of, oh,<BR>what is it, humansitic rule?&nbsp; Democracy, et al.&nbsp; Kind of like what <BR>we're told goes on when the U.S. helps out poorer nations.<BR><BR>&nbsp; But then, that ignores the whole Interstellar War era and it's <BR>effects on humanity and the U.S. - the coming together of nations to <BR>fight the 'aliens', generations of war, diaspora.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Hmm - what are some Oriental nobility titles, and would they (or <BR>other styles of nobility) have been put in place in various regions of <BR>the conquered ZS?<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR><BR>[1] Attempted humor.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>Nogginavigation: Ability of parents to guide kids by the tops of their heads.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:05:53 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt; A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.<BR>&gt; With a goal to create a Federal Republic type<BR>&gt; system.&nbsp; Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!<BR>&gt; There are ways to do it without following the<BR>&gt; American model.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>The thought occurs:&nbsp; This could be really nasty.&nbsp; Monarchist vs.<BR>republicans.&nbsp; Nothing quite as bloody as a civil war.<BR><BR>And how would the surrounding empires react.&nbsp; I can easily see the Solomani<BR>supporting the democrats, what about the others?<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:06:30 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>&gt;hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "...ideas.&nbsp; What else can go wrong that is annoying - potentially <BR>alarming, even demoralizing, yet not deadly enough to make a ship become <BR>rated as "unsafe"...."<BR><BR><BR>Hal,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I always enjoyed inflicting plumbing disasters on my PCs and not just <BR>because I have a "potty" mouth.&nbsp; How about the fresher attached to the <BR>bridge being on the "fritz" forcing those on watch to roll against their <BR>endurance or require a relief?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Landing struts are nice nagging problems too.&nbsp; Your PCs might have to <BR>EVA for a quick look at one registering a fault light prior to landing.&nbsp; <BR>Wouldn't want it to fail and collapse whiel on the ground, would you?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Problems with the gravitic "net" in the ship are fun too.&nbsp; Want to make <BR>your PCs sweat?&nbsp; Well then don't allow them to "null" the hold and float out <BR>the cargo containers.&nbsp; The inability to "tune" gravity in each stateroom <BR>might make passengers testy.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Habitabilty is always a good one.&nbsp; MOst PCs loathe passengers, but need <BR>them to make ends meet.&nbsp; Throw all sorts of stateroom problems at them; <BR>heating, cooling, light levels, entertainment equipment.&nbsp; Instead making the <BR>passenger just someone who can't be pleased, give them real complaints.&nbsp; The <BR>PCs might find a judgement against them for the cost of a high passage, plus <BR>damages, the next time they visit that world.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Minor engineering slip-ups can be fun also.&nbsp; The Challenge had a <BR>wonderful article titled "The Wrong Way Valve" that sparked all sorts of <BR>ideas for me.&nbsp; Have an engineeering PC roll against you for "procedural <BR>compliance" during involved and lengthy operations; wilderness refueling, <BR>cold starts of the "bottle", scrams and recovery from scrams.&nbsp; If you both <BR>pass, no problems.&nbsp; If he passes but you fail, inflict some minor hiccup.&nbsp; <BR>If he fails, he has to begin again.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; For example, T:NE space combat introduced a damage result I liked very <BR>much, the reset.&nbsp; If the PC fails his rolls, inflict a reset on the <BR>equipment in question.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; My PCs rarely had a fully functional ship, except after their annual <BR>overhaul, and then not for too long.&nbsp; I wouldn't let them fill those long <BR>empty hours in jump with "study" or "personal development" just so they <BR>could pad their skills.&nbsp; It was preventive and actual maintenance all the <BR>way.&nbsp;&nbsp; Keep 'em busy and it's less work for you.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:10:58 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Doug C. writes:<BR>&gt; The Republican style of government historically tends toward centralism,<BR>&gt; or fragmentation.&nbsp; The alternatives are confederacy, or parliamentary<BR>&gt; federalism (more centralized than a confederacy, less than a republican<BR>&gt; model<BR><BR>The fuedal style of government also historically tends towards centralism or<BR>fragmentation.&nbsp; In fact, I suspect that statement is generally true of all<BR>forms of government.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:55:10<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?<BR><BR>At 09:05 PM 2/20/2001 +0100, Jens wrote:<BR>&gt;"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>&gt;&gt; Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>&gt;&gt; Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;It's not working. I want my money/soul/whatever back.<BR><BR>Too late!!&nbsp; You are mine for eternity! Mwahahahaha!!&nbsp; Check out page 49 of<BR>Ground Forces to see Jens' fate...<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes<BR>reliable internet access difficult to obtain.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Xaonon, in alt.atheism<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:58:03<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>&gt; Heck, even the old Spooky is fun for PCs<BR><BR>I've always pictured the design team meeting for the AC-47..<BR><BR>"OK, and back here is the where the 105 goes."<BR><BR>"The what?"<BR><BR>"The 105mm howitzer.&nbsp; Useful thing in this sort of role."<BR><BR>"You want to mount *side firing field artillery* in an aircraft?!"<BR><BR>"Just a little one..."<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.&nbsp; On the<BR>other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Rich Clancey<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:10:49<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Don't run...<BR><BR>At 01:15 PM 2/20/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;This is more commonly a line used by snipers (predominantly USMC, since<BR>&gt;they are far superior to the other branches of service, right Doug?)<BR><BR>For certain purposes.. for example, if you need a gate guarded, the Marines<BR>are great!&nbsp; 200+ years and not a *single* gate stolen!&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>Seriously, I did my sniper training at the USMC school (this was in the<BR>days when the Army did all the Airborne training, the Marines handled<BR>sniper training, the Navy diving, etc..) and have a profound respect for<BR>the Corps.<BR><BR>&gt;Other quotes include "Reach out and touch someone" and "Sniper: the next<BR>&gt;best thing to being there."<BR><BR>On the wall of the Scout/Sniper School at Quantico (circa 1985, it has<BR>moved since then IIRC) is the following:<BR><BR>"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist-"&nbsp; Union General John<BR>Sedgwick as he was shot dead by a Confederate sniper at Spotsylvania<BR><BR>On that note, from the US Army Ranger School Mountain Phase.&nbsp; This is on a<BR>tombstone just outside the orderly room.<BR><BR>"Here lie the bones<BR>Of Ranger Jones<BR>A graduate of this institution<BR>He died last night<BR>In his first fire-fight<BR>Using the school solution<BR><BR>BE FLEXIBLE!"<BR><BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>Embrace Fascism.&nbsp; &nbsp; The uniforms look cool<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:14:05<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Don't run...<BR><BR>At 03:22 PM 2/20/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;It should be noted that army snipers in Viet Nam actually racked up a larger<BR>&gt;number of kills, on average, per sniper.<BR><BR>The army sniper were used differently.&nbsp; A matter of tactics, really.&nbsp; Also,<BR>the army shooters worked a more "target-rich" envitonment.<BR><BR>&gt;Also, unlike a sniper, an AC130 spectre is good for a grid square.<BR><BR>Yes, but I can stop an entire regiment with one bullet at the right time.<BR>Properly used, snipers are an extremely effective method of disrupting<BR>enemy operations.<BR><BR>&gt;Personally, I like the idea of an airborn 105mm cannon.<BR><BR>See my other post on the topic. :)<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Some days, you just can't get rid&nbsp; of a bomb!"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -Adam West, as Batman <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:18:20<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>At 03:01 PM 2/20/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Ah, yes. Reminds me of the bad ol' days at MCRD. The DI is demonstrating<BR>&gt;the proper thrust/recover for bayonet work.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;DI: "In the event that your bayonet becomes lodged in the body of<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; your opponent, a simple discharge of your weapon is usually<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; sufficient to dislodge the blade."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Recruit: "Ah, Gunnery Sgt.&nbsp; If I'm still capable of discharging my weapon,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; there ain't gonna *BE* no bayonet combat!!"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The rest of the class went downhill from there.<BR><BR>LOL!&nbsp; I got in trouble during bayonet training for wondering aloud about<BR>the odds of everybody running out of ammo at the same time, leading to a<BR>bayonet charge.<BR><BR>I didn't know I could do that many push ups with a M-16A1 balanced on the<BR>back of my hands.<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:21:38<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>At 03:39 PM 2/20/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;When I went through Infantry OSUT (basic and AIT) at Ft Benning in 1980,<BR>&gt;they didn't even have bayonet training.<BR><BR>We had it in 1984, but everybody realized it was more for the "fighting<BR>spirit" thing than any actual combat use.<BR><BR>The bayonet course we ran is still one of thise things that I remember with<BR>loathing.&nbsp; Our qualification day came during a three day downpour, the<BR>remnants of a hurrican that was sweeping over Georgia.&nbsp; I have never been<BR>so cold, wet and miserable in my life.<BR><BR>At least until I went to Korea on TeamSpirit 86.<BR><BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:30:27 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>A rebellion in a setting the size of the Imperium would rapidly become factionalized, with protracted conflict between competing factions breaking down the Imperium's infrastructure. If anyone released a doomsday weapon, things would get really nasty.<BR><BR>I've just had the strangest feeling of deja vu...<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>On Wednesday, February 21, 2001, at 05:03 PM, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; All this take of legal systems and constitutions <BR>&gt; &gt; leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want <BR>&gt; &gt; to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself: <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium. <BR><BR>- --<BR>JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/<BR>Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,<BR>Edition en Anglais.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:34:49 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 2:36, Stephen Tempest wrote:<BR>&gt; You're forgettin' a damned important point, young fellah - we're<BR>&gt; gentlemen.&nbsp; And ladies, of course.&nbsp; We give our word of honour to try<BR>&gt; each case fairly, accordin' to the Law.&nbsp; Deliberately makin' a false<BR>&gt; decision is just Not Done.&nbsp; Noblesse oblige and all that, you know?<BR>&gt; Dash it all, you'd think we were moneygrubbing middle class oiks, not<BR>&gt; nobles sworn to the service of His Imperial Majesty.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Of course, if a chap feels he's just too closely involved with a case<BR>&gt; to be impartial, he can always declare a conflict of interest and<BR>&gt; disqualify himself.&nbsp; After all, appearances are important.&nbsp; Justice<BR>&gt; must be *seen* to be done, what?<BR>&gt; &lt;/IC&gt;<BR><BR>:)&nbsp; <BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;nobles.&nbsp; Who polices the police?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Social pressure...<BR><BR>So the media is important, (the 'fifth column' is it?), at least<BR>in creating public opinion.&nbsp; But what could legally or realistically<BR>be done if a noble does not disqualify himself in a conflict of <BR>interest situation (or whatever reason, bad behavior)?&nbsp; The public<BR>opinion gets so bad that the noble's superiors are forced to act?<BR>(I assume some kind of gentlemanly meeting at first, up to removal<BR>of various support from above if they continue their intransigent <BR>actions, to removal (can they void a patent of nobility?) with or <BR>possibly without the Emperor's approval.<BR>Yes, I suppose that works as a check-and-balance system.&nbsp; So control<BR>of the media is also important - would nobles be allowed to own shares<BR>of media corporations?<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly.<BR>It just happens to be selective about who it makes friends with.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3721<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, February 21 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3722<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Don't run...<BR>Re: fencing<BR>re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: Don't run...<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Hey CF...<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Fractal Terrain Maps<BR>Re: Copyright Laws<BR>Re: What could go wrong?<BR>RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>RE: What could go wrong?<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: fencing<BR>RE: What could go wrong?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:50:37 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Don't run...<BR><BR>&gt; The army sniper were used differently.&nbsp; A matter of tactics, really.<BR>Also,<BR>&gt; the army shooters worked a more "target-rich" envitonment.<BR><BR>Yes, I know. Some have suggested that the lack of any army sniper tales a la<BR>Carlos Hathcock is that the army technique seems so unfair.&nbsp; Frequently an<BR>army sniper, equiped with a M21 with STANO sight and sionics supressor was<BR>dropped, with his team, into a target rich environment just as night fell.<BR>He would spend the evening 'potting' unsuspecting enemy troops at relatively<BR>(for a snip) short range.&nbsp; Just at dawn, he and his team would be<BR>helicopered out.&nbsp; Very effective, but hardly seems fair.<BR><BR>I think John Plaster racked up around 500 kills<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Also, unlike a sniper, an AC130 spectre is good for a grid square.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Yes, but I can stop an entire regiment with one bullet at the right time.<BR>&gt; Properly used, snipers are an extremely effective method of disrupting<BR>&gt; enemy operations.<BR><BR>You are preaching to the converted. Snipers are very cost effective.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Personally, I like the idea of an airborn 105mm cannon.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; See my other post on the topic. :)<BR><BR>BTW, I have a great photo of the inside of an AC-130 during firing.&nbsp; The<BR>crew chief is shoveling empty brass with a coal shovel.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:52:14 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>&gt; The bayonet course we ran is still one of thise things that I remember<BR>with<BR>&gt; loathing.&nbsp; Our qualification day came during a three day downpour, the<BR>&gt; remnants of a hurrican that was sweeping over Georgia.&nbsp; I have never been<BR>&gt; so cold, wet and miserable in my life.<BR><BR>Lucky dog.&nbsp; I was at Harmony church in the summer of 1980.&nbsp; The hottest<BR>summer in recorded history. To this day, I fear the South.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:53:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>- --- Rob Davenport &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; On 20 Feb 2001, at 15:40, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; also, Terrans will still have many remants of hereditary nobility (and<BR>&gt;&gt; I'm not talking about Dubya)<BR><BR>&gt; I'm sorry, I don't know Dubya.&nbsp; Can you explain, please?<BR><BR>President George W. Bush is often called "Dubya", which is Texan for his<BR>middle initial, "Double-you".&nbsp; He is the son of George Bush, who was<BR>president before Bill Clinton.&nbsp; The Kennedy family is another example of<BR>hereditary membership in the ruling class in modern times.&nbsp; <BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I think my problem has been probably my "yankee-ness" - imagining US-<BR>&gt; type people being sent to govern a Vilani planet and how would they <BR>&gt; react to having the native Vilani practically forcing the position of <BR>&gt; nobility on them (in some/all cases?).&nbsp; My 20th/21st century yankee <BR>&gt; sensibilities would think they'd try to establish some kind of, oh,<BR>&gt; what is it, humansitic rule?&nbsp; Democracy, et al.&nbsp; Kind of like what <BR>&gt; we're told goes on when the U.S. helps out poorer nations.<BR><BR>Communications technology is very large factor here.&nbsp; Yankees going<BR>anywhere to take over since the late 1800s have almost never been farther<BR>than a telegraph message from the home office.&nbsp; (Since the middle of the<BR>last century, telephone and radio could put the home office right into the<BR>yankee conqueror's ears.)&nbsp; It's impossible to get somewhere where one<BR>would be out of communication with the home office and culture for years,<BR>let alone generations.&nbsp; That's a very different situation than both the<BR>post Interstellar War era and post Pax Romanica era.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:02:24 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Hence the name "left hand", as opposed to main droite or "right hand"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Hm, do lefthanded fencers use main drite?"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Shame on you!&nbsp; What a very sinister idea!<BR><BR>Please no need to be gauche about it!<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:21:50 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Don't run...<BR><BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Yes, but I can stop an entire regiment with one bullet at the right <BR>time."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Berry,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Or take a city.&nbsp; Or destroy a civlization.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I read Runciman's "Fall Of Constantinople" a few months ago and was <BR>immediately taken by how the Ottoman's last ditch attack on the city <BR>succeeded.&nbsp; An Italian mercenary captain, whose name escapes me, and his <BR>company had been providing an extraordinary defense along a certain portion <BR>of the city's land wall.&nbsp; Then the captain was wounded.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; A few of his men picked him up to move him to safety.&nbsp; Others saw them <BR>"retreating" and did so themselves, and more others saw that and followed.&nbsp; <BR>Within minutes an entire section of wall had been abandoned and the <BR>Ottoman's were in the city.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; One bullet, one man, and Byzantium fell.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Of course, the Byzantine Empire had been living on borrowed time since <BR>Manzikert, and if it hadn't happened then it would have in another decade or <BR>generation.&nbsp; The Ottomans already surrounded what was left of Byzantine <BR>territory and occupied most of the Balkans already.&nbsp; But, it still makes you <BR>think.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The Pope and Italian city states had aleady put aside their squabbles <BR>and dispatched reinforcements.&nbsp; Other European powers were beginning to see <BR>that containment of the Ottomans might be a Good Idea(tm).<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Might the nascent Western powers have propped up their "sick man" of <BR>Europe like the British and French would do the Ottomans centuries later?<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:39:14 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "So the media is important, (the 'fifth column' is it?"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "So control of the media is also important - would nobles be allowed to <BR>own shares of media corporations?"<BR><BR><BR>Rob,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The phrase I believe you're looking for is "fourth estate".&nbsp; It refers <BR>to the three body "Estate General" of France's ancien regime.<BR>Nobles, clergy, and commons, made up the three estates.&nbsp; The newly invented <BR>press called themselves the "fourth estate".<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Fifth column dates from either the Spanish Civil War, or maybe far <BR>earlier.&nbsp; It refers to a body of men inside your military objective who will <BR>rise in rebellion when your forces approach.&nbsp; Hmmm, that's not a bad <BR>description of the press after all!<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Use of the press as a check and balance will depend on more than just <BR>who owns it or how many outlets they can control.&nbsp; The press should have the <BR>same adversarial relationship with each other that they do with the rest of <BR>us.&nbsp; Sadly, the press has never shown this trait to either exist or be a <BR>lasting one.&nbsp; They too have the same "old boy" networks that they loudly <BR>decry in others.&nbsp; The number of stories either squashed or ignored each year <BR>is disheartening.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Case in point.&nbsp; Just a few years ago, an ABC news magazine worked on <BR>and planned to broadcast a story about safety concerns at Disney theme <BR>parks.&nbsp; Disney owns ABC and squashed the story.&nbsp; You would think that NBC, <BR>CBS, CNN, Fox, et. al. would jump on this story like wolves on a snowbound <BR>elk, but you'd be wrong.&nbsp; ABC and Disney got away scot free, with just a few <BR>minor stories, because the press do not go after their own.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Whisper "coverup" in DC or a corporate meeting and they'll be on you <BR>like hounds from hell.&nbsp; Whisper the same phrase inside their own newsrooms <BR>and studios and all you'll get is an knowing wink and a pat on the back.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:51:25 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>"Hence the name "left hand", as opposed to main droite or "right hand"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Hm, do lefthanded fencers use main drite?"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Shame on you!&nbsp; What a very sinister idea!"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Please, no need to be gauche about it!"<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Johnson,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Touche, sir!&nbsp; And as our little contremps was to the first touch, may I <BR>be among the first to congratulate you?<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen &lt; flourishes a lage floppy hat and bows deeply &gt;<BR><BR>P.S. Does anyone else remeber the scene in the 70's "Three Musketeers" in <BR>which the evil Christopher Lee is playing some sort of game with balls in an <BR>inn's courtyard?&nbsp; There are these lifesize wooden cutouts of noble ladies <BR>standing some distance from him while he bowls underhand at them.&nbsp; It's some <BR>sort of contemptuous bocce.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:27:23 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;And there may be a significant amount of actual history that<BR>&gt;&gt;would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion.&nbsp; For<BR>&gt;&gt;example, the United States of America until the invention of<BR>&gt; the telegraph.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the Imperium faces.<BR><BR>Oh? Check the travel times between California and the east coast back<BR>before the railroad. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:02:23 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt;The phrase I believe you're looking for is "fourth estate".&nbsp; It refers to <BR>&gt;the three body "Estate General" of France's ancien regime.<BR>&gt;Nobles, clergy, and commons, made up the three estates.&nbsp; The newly invented <BR>&gt;press called themselves the "fourth estate".<BR><BR>Confusingly, both "The Fourth Estate" and "The Fifth Estate" is used to <BR>refer to the press. "The Fifth Estate" just refers to newer news media than <BR>print, however -- radio and television in particular. The Canadian <BR>equivalent of "60 Minutes" is named such just for this reason.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:09:40 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 9:53, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; I'm sorry, I don't know Dubya.&nbsp; Can you explain, please?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; President George W. Bush is often called "Dubya", which is Texan for his<BR>&gt; middle initial, "Double-you".&nbsp; He is the son of George Bush, who was<BR>&gt; president before Bill Clinton.&nbsp; The Kennedy family is another example of<BR>&gt; hereditary membership in the ruling class in modern times.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Ah, yes.&nbsp; I was mis-pronouncing it in my head as "Doob-ya", as it <BR>reminded me of the Russian word "doob" (where are those darn cyrillic <BR>keys??) which means "oak-tree" and is a common slang for "stupid" as in <BR>"thick as an oak".&nbsp; I wonder if "doob-ya" means "little oak", or "son <BR>of an oak"... :)<BR><BR>I must admit the fact that his father was president didn't sit well<BR>with me during the election, though I didn't let that affect my vote. <BR>But I still didn't like it for just that reason - it smacked of a <BR>hereditary choice by the Republicans.&nbsp; But then, that obviously appeals <BR>to some people too - pointing to how some would accept if not welcome <BR>an hereditary leader.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I think my problem has been probably my "yankee-ness" - imagining US-<BR>&gt; &gt; type people being sent to govern a Vilani planet and how would they <BR>&gt; &gt; react to having the native Vilani practically forcing the position of <BR>&gt; &gt; nobility on them (in some/all cases?).&nbsp; My 20th/21st century yankee <BR>&gt; &gt; sensibilities would think they'd try to establish some kind of, oh,<BR>&gt; &gt; what is it, humansitic rule?&nbsp; Democracy, et al.&nbsp; Kind of like what <BR>&gt; &gt; we're told goes on when the U.S. helps out poorer nations.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Communications technology is very large factor here.&nbsp; Yankees going<BR>&gt; anywhere to take over since the late 1800s have almost never been farther<BR>&gt; than a telegraph message from the home office.&nbsp; (Since the middle of the<BR>&gt; last century, telephone and radio could put the home office right into the<BR>&gt; yankee conqueror's ears.)&nbsp; It's impossible to get somewhere where one<BR>&gt; would be out of communication with the home office and culture for years,<BR>&gt; let alone generations.&nbsp; That's a very different situation than both the<BR>&gt; post Interstellar War era and post Pax Romanica era.<BR><BR>True, I can see the Terran's culture changing as they spend so much <BR>time in contact with the Vilani worlds and with little communication <BR>from home.&nbsp; I now wonder why they didn't almost completely assimilate <BR>and the end product become mostly Vilani in nature if they were so <BR>outnumbered and removed from home?<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>'Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.'<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:18:15 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Hey CF...<BR><BR>Am Tuesday, February 20, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; uuuummmmm........could someone explain to me what an ancient Cthulhu<BR>&gt; religion has to do with Traveller??&nbsp;&nbsp; Isn't that more specific to D&amp;D??&nbsp; I <BR>&gt; know I'm new to the list so could someone explain it to me?? Please??<BR><BR>Its just one of those inside jokes that have developed on this list<BR>over time. It may have something to do with someone suggesting playing<BR>Illuminated Traveller, and someone else suggested adding Cthuluh as<BR>well. Just roll with it, its fun once you get the hang of it.<BR><BR>Secondly, dont start annoying people by telling them their posts are<BR>boring. Doing that just creates bad blood. This ML is and has always<BR>been a high volume, 50/50 on and off topic ML.<BR>When something doesnt interest you, click delete, but dont tell<BR>everybody about it. I only read about 30% of the List, because I dont<BR>have the time to read it all, and some points interest me more than<BR>others do.<BR><BR>And finally, please learn to quote. Dont repost the _entire_ letter,<BR>and leave only the most important part to remind others what you are<BR>replying to. If thats not possible, summarize the content yourself,<BR>and put it in brackets. O yes, and please use a plain text format so<BR>everybody on the list can read what you write...<BR><BR>Have fun on the TML,<BR>Volker<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:18:10 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;And there may be a significant amount of actual history that<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion.&nbsp; For<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;example, the United States of America until the invention of<BR>&gt;&gt; the telegraph.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the Imperium<BR>faces.<BR><BR>&gt;Oh? Check the travel times between California and the east coast back<BR>&gt;before the railroad. <BR><BR>Clipper ship was around 120 days around cape horn. little faster or little<BR>slower depending on winds. infact the merchant companies would use their<BR>fastest time from new york to San francsico as an advertising scheme.<BR><BR>Hope this helps hasta<BR><BR>Me<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:23:14 -0800<BR>From: Bill &lt;beast@aracnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Fractal Terrain Maps<BR><BR>There have been a few postings about using the Fractal Terrain <BR>software to generate planetary maps for Traveller.<BR><BR>If any of you have planetary maps already created would you be <BR>willing to share them? I am interested in any maps that were <BR>generated close to canon specs.<BR><BR>Credit will be given for map creation.<BR><BR>Contact me off list if you are willing to participate.<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>beast@aracnet.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:22:27 -0500<BR>From: "Thom Harris" &lt;thomharr@mediaone.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Copyright Laws<BR><BR>Yea, we took notice of how the other countries did business and followed<BR>suite. The difference is we are powerful enough that no one will declare war<BR>on us unlike our trainers. You know what countries I'm talking about,<BR>they've been doing the same thing for 400 years and now they're mad because<BR>this young brash upstart of a country thinks they can get away with it too.<BR>How dare they......<BR><BR>Oh you don't know what countries I am talking about, try reading someone<BR>else's history books and see what their countries say about your countries<BR>participation in world events.<BR><BR>Everyone is biased my friend. You need to sit down to some nice wine and a<BR>good cheese and mellow out.<BR><BR>Thom Harris - GOFIR - &lt;Gnarly Old Fart In Residence&gt;<BR>Life not only begins at forty, it begins to show.<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 5:18 AM<BR>Subject: RE: Copyright Laws<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote :<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; As they should&nbsp; US laws are very relevant in other countries.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; But only because the US likes to enforce it's laws overseas by sending<BR>armed<BR>&gt; men and helicopters over into soveriegn countries to drag non-US citizens<BR>&gt; back to the US to stand trial under US law, in clear breach of the<BR>soverign<BR>&gt; rights of the countries and citizens involved.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Or bully other governments into voluntarily handing over their own<BR>citizens<BR>&gt; for breaking US law, even though what they did was not illegal in their<BR>home<BR>&gt; country, and they had never ever been in the US, or carried out that act<BR>on<BR>&gt; US soil.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Frankie<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:27 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;3a95bfed.6339290@post.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>A really strange smell... which can ultimately be traced to half of a <BR>groat sandwich left somewhere deep within cable trunking by a dockyard <BR>matey.<BR><BR>At least one computer programme whose interface module is incompletely <BR>translated from a language that none of the characters knows. (I once had <BR>a CAD package of German origin, which was fine except when you wanted to <BR>answer 'Yes' to a prompt you had to enter 'J' for 'Ja' instead of 'Y'!)<BR><BR>Mysterious knocking noises - again probably some loose object left behind <BR>by a workman. Probably only manifest themselves when a particular <BR>manoeuvre is performed.<BR><BR>A reactor that is always convinced it's overheating however hard you run <BR>the coolant through it.<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:42:09 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 4:34, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The Corn Laws were a series of statutes in Britain that forbid the <BR>&gt; importation of corn (what North Americans call wheat) except at certain <BR>&gt; prices and quantities.&nbsp; It was ensure high market prices for home grown <BR>&gt; corn.&nbsp; Seeing as nobles owned most of the farms growing said crop, keeping <BR>&gt; the prices high was in their best interest.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Eventually, the rise in population, coupled with the labor needs of the <BR>&gt; newly indutrialized cities and towns, meant that Britain could no longer <BR>&gt; feed itself (this occurred roughly between 1820 to 1850).&nbsp; Agitation to <BR>&gt; repeal the Corn Laws was actually greater than agitation to allow more men <BR>&gt; to the vote.&nbsp; After all, wheat is bread, and bread is life.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Of course the nobility, and the newly wealthy enscounced in their <BR>&gt; rotten borough seats in the Commons, resisted any efforts to reduce the <BR>&gt; tariffs out of self interest.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A good parallel for us might be the dairy price supports championed by <BR>&gt; Sen. Proxmire.&nbsp; Intially meant to ensure that milk would available for <BR>&gt; children (a cynical motive if there ever was one), they have slowly driven <BR>&gt; smaller dairies out of the marketplace be reducing profit margins.<BR><BR>So the fact that nobles (in some TUs) may adjudicate cases is not <BR>improbable - they get a lists of reasons why they should that sound<BR>great and appeal the masses initially, get the power, and then rule as <BR>they will.&nbsp; (Or have a list of flowery reasons as to why they already <BR>have the power.)&nbsp; They rule mostly fairly, but in cases that affect <BR>them, most likely they rule in their own self-interest - and have a <BR>good cover story as to why, just like any good politician.&nbsp; Just hope <BR>the media (as was mentioned earlier today) has a good enough position <BR>to root out the really bad ones and the nobles above act when necessary <BR>to remove them.<BR><BR>What's the 3I equivalent of "The West Wing"?<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>'Men stumble over the truth from time to<BR>time, but most manage to pick themselves<BR>up and run off as if nothing happened.'<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Winston Churchill<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:47:11 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>How about On the forward Landing gear one of the "Down and Locked" switches<BR>have an intermittent short in it. so that the light on the instrument panel<BR>blinks off and on erratically. corrective measure would be to replace the<BR>switch.<BR><BR>How about an Air Lock Door Switch that will only open the door when the<BR>switch is toggled "forcefully".<BR><BR>The Septic system on the ship was built with substandard parts. the Holding<BR>tank Nozzles where the hoses connect does not have any small ridges to help<BR>seal. this has caused a small leak if the "fluids" inside the tank. this has<BR>given a certain section of the ship a Distinctive smell. Corrective action<BR>would be to replace holding tank and hoses with proper parts.<BR><BR>A distinctive rattle/squeak in the Air ventilation system. this could be<BR>caused by the bearings on a fan to be going out or a fan blade to be<BR>slightly bent.<BR><BR>When underway the crew finds that there are several spots in the floor where<BR>the gravity is slightly lighter than the rest of the ship. upon inspection<BR>they find that the gravity equipment had been pulled in these areas to make<BR>room for smuggling illegal cargos.<BR><BR><BR>Me <BR><BR>Hasta<BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk<BR>[mailto:mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk]<BR>Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:27 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Cc: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk<BR>Subject: Re: What could go wrong?<BR><BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;3a95bfed.6339290@post.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>A really strange smell... which can ultimately be traced to half of a <BR>groat sandwich left somewhere deep within cable trunking by a dockyard <BR>matey.<BR><BR>At least one computer programme whose interface module is incompletely <BR>translated from a language that none of the characters knows. (I once had <BR>a CAD package of German origin, which was fine except when you wanted to <BR>answer 'Yes' to a prompt you had to enter 'J' for 'Ja' instead of 'Y'!)<BR><BR>Mysterious knocking noises - again probably some loose object left behind <BR>by a workman. Probably only manifest themselves when a particular <BR>manoeuvre is performed.<BR><BR>A reactor that is always convinced it's overheating however hard you run <BR>the coolant through it.<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:50:42<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>At 11:18 AM 2/21/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Clipper ship was around 120 days around cape horn. little faster or little<BR>&gt;slower depending on winds. infact the merchant companies would use their<BR>&gt;fastest time from new york to San francsico as an advertising scheme.<BR><BR>Speaking of SF's maritime history..<BR><BR>On Telegraph Hill (then known as Signal Hill), there were numerous ship<BR>watchers.&nbsp; They employed children as runners.&nbsp; At the first sighting of a<BR>sail, the kids would be sent towards the docks to warn the various<BR>companies of the approaching vessel.<BR><BR>Y'see, the docks were all private concerns, so early knowledge of a ship's<BR>imminent arrival allowed them to get *their* harbor pilot out first.&nbsp; In<BR>extreme cases, dock owners would send gangs of rowdies to set fire to<BR>competitors as the ship approached!<BR><BR>One devious owner dressed his men as "Chinamen", and had them skulk around<BR>his enemy's pier.&nbsp; This drove business away.<BR><BR>ObTrav: On a world with a privately owned port, the players are caught up<BR>in the war over providing docking berths and ship services.&nbsp; This could be<BR>an adventure in its own right, or as a push to keep the characters<BR>on-planet while their ship is repaired.<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"<BR>- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:56:46 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote<BR><BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Mr. Johnson,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Touche, sir!&nbsp; And as our little contremps was to the first touch, <BR>&gt; may I be among the first to congratulate you?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen &lt; flourishes a lage floppy hat and bows deeply &gt;<BR><BR>O, monseiur, 'tis only a light touch, and on a fitting opponent!<BR><BR>&gt; P.S. Does anyone else remeber the scene in the 70's "Three Musketeers" <BR>&gt; in which the evil Christopher Lee is playing some sort of game with <BR>&gt; balls in an inn's courtyard?&nbsp; There are these lifesize wooden cutouts of <BR>&gt; noble ladies standing some distance from him while he bowls underhand at <BR>&gt; them.&nbsp; It's some sort of contemptuous bocce.<BR><BR>Yes, the Richard Lester 3/4 Musketeers are on my 'must get' list when I get around to buying a DVD player.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:17:42 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: RE: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR>&nbsp; For everyone who responded, I'd like to say "THANKS A MILLION" &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; I<BR>guess there is nothing like working in a hot, enclosed, environment where<BR>there are a million things literally, that can go wrong - and having to<BR>chase every niggling detail to see what the problem is.<BR>&nbsp; As it stands now, the group originally asked "Do we spend 10 points per<BR>character on buying the ship, or do we spend 20 points?"&nbsp; The rationale was<BR>"we save points to be better" or "We spend points to have more free time<BR>from maintenance".&nbsp; You already know what they chose.&nbsp; And now, thanks to<BR>you - they will find out what the real meaning of grease monkey is...<BR><BR>&nbsp; After this, I suspect the players are going to wish they had spent more<BR>on the ship...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>Thanks again <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:59:19 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 23:44, JR Holmes wrote:<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; The way those dairy price supports were written was to specify higher<BR>&gt; minimum prices for milk produced based upon a formula calculating the<BR>&gt; distance away from the state of Wisconsin, which had the minimum<BR>&gt; supported price.&nbsp; Thus, though Wisconsin farmers were often producing<BR>&gt; milk at a lower price than farmers in Florida, for instance, they had<BR>&gt; to charge the higher price to Florida purchasers, if any could be<BR>&gt; found.&nbsp; This was intended to encourage and support dairy farmers<BR>&gt; outside the state of Wisconsin on the theory that milk, being a<BR>&gt; perishable product, was better produced close to the consumers.&nbsp; The<BR>&gt; price supports did exactly that and promoted a boom in the<BR>&gt; construction of dairy farms as far away from Wisconsin as possible.<BR>&gt; California is now the largest milk producer in the US.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Thus, we now have the situation, as occurred last summer (and several<BR>&gt; others prior to that), where the price for milk in Wisconsin was below<BR>&gt; the cost of production.&nbsp; Unfortunately, the capital costs of a dairy<BR>&gt; farm require a relatively high minimum expenditure to maintain the<BR>&gt; livestock, which greatly penalizes dairy farmers in "bad years".<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In recent years, Wisconsin's senators have been trying to _end_ the<BR>&gt; dairy price supports rather than extend them.<BR><BR>This makes me wonder, how could/did the 3I *avoid* getting entangled<BR>in issues such as these?&nbsp; If the 3I is just a unifying police and <BR>protection force, then there would be many cases of injustices, <BR>misfortunes of circumstance, etc. where many people suffer, potentially <BR>needlessly, if the 3I stepped in and helped.&nbsp; <BR><BR>I suppose there'd be some kind of disaster relief of a sort (rescue <BR>those colonists on an atm-0 world after the life support is struck by <BR>an asteroid [assume they can last at least two weeks to get the message <BR>out and rescuers back, ok, bad example, but something like that.]).<BR>And the occasional local insurgency or was on a balkanized world turns <BR>into such a "bad war" that the 3I steps in, rare, but possible.<BR><BR>But wouldn't there have been pressure to help out in less dire <BR>circumstances?&nbsp; Lack of trade regulations causes one world to become <BR>unprofitable and forces most inhabitants to leave at great personal <BR>expense.&nbsp; Appeals to the local, subsector and sector nobles for relief <BR>would have to be numerous.&nbsp; Do they provide token assistance and say <BR>"that's all we have the resources for, you're basically on your own"?<BR>Even in the core worlds?&nbsp; (If so, that would promote population on <BR>"successful worlds" as opposed to the risky or unsuccessful ones, no?)<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:<BR>Ventis secundis, tene cursum.&nbsp; --&nbsp; Go with the flow.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; 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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, February 21 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3723<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: TGOOs<BR>Spectres in the machine...<BR>Re: Official Traveller Message Boards :-(<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: [TML] Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: What could go wrong?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3720<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: fencing<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:15:22 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "ObTrav: On a world with a privately owned port, the players are caught <BR>up in the war over providing docking berths and ship services.&nbsp; This could <BR>be an adventure in its own right, or as a push to keep the characters <BR>on-planet while their ship is repaired."<BR><BR>Mr. Berry,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Fascinating stuff.&nbsp; The entire way of life around seaports, both in the <BR>past and today, provides great OBTrav fodder.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As you mentioned above, the problems that could occur in a private port <BR>are powerful reasons for "GT:Star Port's" assertion that most ports in the <BR>Imperium were run by the 3I.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I especially liked the sidebar dealing with "floaters" in that book.&nbsp; <BR>I'd never even thought of them while detailing the several ports my PCs <BR>visited.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:19:55 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Yes, the Richard Lester 3/4 Musketeers are on my 'must get' list<BR>when I get around to buying a DVD player."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Johnson,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I've read that he hadn't planned on releasing it as two movies but, <BR>after looking at all the footage, realized he'd either have to throw away <BR>priceless stuff or make two films.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; This, of course, coud just be another Hollywood legend.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:20:59 -0500<BR>From: "Thom Harris" &lt;thomharr@mediaone.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TGOOs<BR><BR>When I first started reading the list I dl'd it from GEnie and read the<BR>archived info. I still have some of those saved somewhere from 89/90 time<BR>frame. I didn't JOIN the list until sometime in 93/94 when I found it<BR>mentioned on someone's web site. I don't have anything published so I'm out<BR>on a limb there too. I did get a couple of game scenarios run at few<BR>conventions and I got paid for them.....stretching here....<BR><BR>Thom Harris - GOFIR - &lt;Gnarly Old Fart In Residence&gt;<BR>Life not only begins at forty, it begins to show.<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Leonard Erickson" &lt;shadow@krypton.rain.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 12:39 PM<BR>Subject: Re: TGOOs<BR><BR><BR>&gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; When I subscribed,<BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; and I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I don't think the list goes back *that* far.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>&gt;&nbsp; shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>&gt; leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:33:44 -0000<BR>From: "Jeff Rowse" &lt;jeffrowse@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Spectres in the machine...<BR><BR>I believe the 'Twilight 2000' supplement "Aviation &amp; Nautical Handbook"(? I <BR>think that's what it's called) had stats for the Spectre gunships.&nbsp; I can <BR>try to dig it out if anyone's interested...<BR><BR>Also, &lt;***FLAME WAR ALERT***?<BR><BR>Democracy, bah!&nbsp; I spit on your Democracy.&nbsp; Technical Fuedocracy all the <BR>way!<BR><BR>&lt;grins, ducks and runs into the nearest nuclear shelter...&gt;<BR>sorry all, couldn't resist it!<BR>&lt;/***FLAME WAR ALERT***&gt;<BR><BR><BR>Jeff<BR>(a very, VERY bad man!)<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:24:36 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Official Traveller Message Boards :-(<BR><BR>Am Tuesday, February 20, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Far Future Enterprises is pleased to announce the opening of the Official Traveller message boards! We launch these boards as a central location where Traveller fans can get together, meet other<BR>&gt; Traveller players, and interact directly with those involved in bringing you the Traveller universe! This is the place for official news and announcements, answers to your questions, a place where<BR>&gt; you can have a voice in the future of Traveller. Marc Miller, creator of Traveller will be a regular contributor to th<BR>&gt; ese boards, so you can get the scoop directly from the source himself, including information on the fabled Fifth edition of Traveller (aka T5)!<BR><BR>&gt; We look forward to seeing you there!<BR>Hmm, why these boeards? Is the TML not good enough anymore?<BR>Please post any interesting notes on these boards in here as well, as<BR>downloading mails is still cheaper and faster than surfing on<BR>webboards...<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:54:44 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "But wouldn't there have been pressure to help out in less dire<BR>circumstances?&nbsp; Lack of trade regulations causes one world to become<BR>unprofitable and forces most inhabitants to leave at great personal<BR>expense."<BR><BR><BR>Rob,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I believe that the slow pace of communication, coupled with the normal <BR>waxing and waning cycle of any population's degree of altruism, would tend <BR>to limit the amount of disaster relief between worlds.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The relatively high cost for refugees to flee any disaster, man made or <BR>natural, would insulate adjacent worlds from visable reminders of the <BR>"tragedy" occurrig next door.&nbsp; No weary mob of refugees, their worldly <BR>belongings stuffed in suitcases and valises, trudging across the border and <BR>tugging along their children will be seen.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; There would be no real time satellite transmissions of starving <BR>children on Roup beamed to the cities of Regina.&nbsp; Tsunami and earthquake <BR>survivors would have to wait 2+ weeks for any out sytem help to arrive, not <BR>the 1 or 2 day wait for relief supplies the residents of Central America <BR>have come to expect from the US.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (Please note that US relief efforts in Central America is not done out <BR>of the goodness of our hearts, but for rather more pragmatic concerns.&nbsp; We <BR>share a 3000km, undefended land border with several Third World nations.&nbsp; <BR>Anything we do to assuage the people in those nations holds down the level <BR>of illegal immigration.&nbsp; For the European members of the TML, may I suggest <BR>you envision a world in which the Mediterranean has dried up.&nbsp; The EU might <BR>then deal with North Africa much like the US deals with Central America.)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Donor worlds current levels of altruism will have a great effect also.&nbsp; <BR>Look at the "donor fatigue" Third World nations now face when begging for <BR>alms.&nbsp; In the 80's, famine workers had to beat visiting celebrities off with <BR>a stick.&nbsp; Now they can't even get a check from them.&nbsp; This will change as <BR>society's memory of the fraud and waste surrounding the big efforts in the <BR>80's fade.&nbsp; Relief fund raising will become "chic" again (note that actual <BR>relief work is never "chic") and the donations will again roll in.&nbsp; At least <BR>until society becomes revulsed with the waste or bored enough to move onto <BR>to the next "hot" thing.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The upshot?&nbsp; I don't envision a Imperium wide FEMA.&nbsp; Maybe ones <BR>organized by nobility in a subsector or sector basis, but funding will be <BR>tight and by subsrciption.&nbsp; Such agencies will pick and choose their battles <BR>and not repsond to every disaster.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:58:53 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 18:39, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The phrase I believe you're looking for is "fourth estate".&nbsp; It refers <BR>&gt; to the three body "Estate General" of France's ancien regime.<BR>&gt; Nobles, clergy, and commons, made up the three estates.&nbsp; The newly invented <BR>&gt; press called themselves the "fourth estate".<BR><BR>&lt;slaps head&gt; d'oh! Of course.&nbsp; Slipped my enfeebled mind. <BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fifth column dates from either the Spanish Civil War, or maybe far <BR>&gt; earlier.&nbsp; It refers to a body of men inside your military objective who will <BR>&gt; rise in rebellion when your forces approach.&nbsp; Hmmm, that's not a bad <BR>&gt; description of the press after all!<BR><BR>:)<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Use of the press as a check and balance will depend on more than just <BR>&gt; who owns it or how many outlets they can control.&nbsp; The press should have the <BR>&gt; same adversarial relationship with each other that they do with the rest of <BR>&gt; us.&nbsp; Sadly, the press has never shown this trait to either exist or be a <BR>&gt; lasting one.&nbsp; They too have the same "old boy" networks that they loudly <BR>&gt; decry in others.&nbsp; The number of stories either squashed or ignored each year <BR>&gt; is disheartening.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Case in point.&nbsp; Just a few years ago, an ABC news magazine worked on <BR>&gt; and planned to broadcast a story about safety concerns at Disney theme <BR>&gt; parks.&nbsp; Disney owns ABC and squashed the story.&nbsp; You would think that NBC, <BR>&gt; CBS, CNN, Fox, et. al. would jump on this story like wolves on a snowbound <BR>&gt; elk, but you'd be wrong.&nbsp; ABC and Disney got away scot free, with just a few <BR>&gt; minor stories, because the press do not go after their own.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Whisper "coverup" in DC or a corporate meeting and they'll be on you <BR>&gt; like hounds from hell.&nbsp; Whisper the same phrase inside their own newsrooms <BR>&gt; and studios and all you'll get is an knowing wink and a pat on the back.<BR><BR>...and who watches the watchers, once again, eh?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Add on another layer responsible for monitoring the behavior of the <BR>press?&nbsp; That could go on ad infinitum.&nbsp; Eventually you have to close <BR>the circle, no?&nbsp; (e.g. Executive, Legislative, Judicial branches in the <BR>U.S. and their cross checks [however effective they may or may not be I <BR>can't recall off the top of my head]).&nbsp; <BR><BR>Rob D.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:<BR>Re vera, potas bene.&nbsp; --&nbsp; Say, you sure are drinking a lot.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:58:37 -0500<BR>From: Jonathan McDermott &lt;caraig@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [TML] Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:08:28 -0000<BR>&gt;From: "Ben Aaronovitch" &lt;bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;And with that system you could play 'Ride of the Valkyries' during those <BR>&gt;tricky<BR>&gt;planetary assaults.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Ben<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>&gt;- ----- Original Message -----<BR>&gt;From: Leonard Erickson &lt;shadow@krypton.rain.com&gt;<BR>&gt;To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 8:11 AM<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)<BR><BR>And evil overlords wouldn't have to hire orchestras to play their theme <BR>music when they came thundering out of the sky with their Legions of <BR>Terror(tm).&nbsp; Just assigna particularly creative engineer, give him some <BR>extra stock options, and enjoy the sight of the peasants fleeing before the <BR>massed -- and musical -- might of your monolithic military.<BR><BR>(Ack, alliteration, the pain.&nbsp; Maybe just a nobleman from Mongo.)<BR><BR>*now looks for the contract to merchandise the blue-in-front/red-in-back <BR>official "Near-C" hats.*&nbsp; Actually, now that I think about it, that could <BR>be quite a fad, among post-spaceflight adolescents who had an inking of <BR>science.&nbsp; It might, for a time, make for interesting designer fashions, <BR>blue in front gradienting to red in back... 'For the person who is always <BR>moving at near-C through their workday and nightlife!'<BR><BR>Cheers<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:05:09 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 11:18, William Lane wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;And there may be a significant amount of actual history that<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion.&nbsp; For<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;example, the United States of America until the invention of<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; the telegraph.<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the Imperium<BR>&gt; faces.<BR><BR>Would a better example than the U.S. be the British Empire at it's <BR>height in the age of sail (uh, *think* *think* *think*, mid- late-<BR>1850s?).&nbsp; How long did it take to sail from Portsmouth to Botany Bay, <BR>for example?&nbsp; (he said, having just finished reading P.O'Brian's <BR>"Desolation Island".)&nbsp; Certainly less than the year or two I believe is <BR>quoted for Regina to Capital, but substantial nonetheless.<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:<BR>Sic faciunt omnes.&nbsp; --&nbsp; Everyone is doing it.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:16:28 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: John Fox &lt;jfox@verity.com&gt;<BR>Subject: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>Hello Everyone:<BR>Sometime in the past (roughly a week ago I think), someone said that you could <BR>just fill up iwth water instead of H2 and this would give you alot more fuel.<BR>After thinking about this for a while I decided to crunch some numbers just for <BR>the heck of it and also to satisfy my curiousity.&nbsp; What follows is back of the <BR>envolpe calculation on H2 vs H2O.<BR><BR>Hydrogen (H2)<BR>Denisty: 76.0 KG / m^3 at 11 degK <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (yeah I know it is a solid at this temperature&nbsp; [BP = 14 deg K but it <BR>give better results)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>Volume of 1 ton (1000KG, = metric ton not english ton)<BR>&nbsp; 1000/76.0 = 13.16 m^3<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; Water (H2O)<BR>&nbsp; Denisty: 1g / ml [cm^3] at 1 deg C (274 deg K)<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; Volume of 1 ton H2O<BR>&nbsp; 1 m^3 = (100cm)^3 = 1.0 X 10^6 cm (ml)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; = 1.0 X 10^6 grams = 1 X 10^3 kg <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; = 1 metric ton H2O<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; H2 in H2O<BR>&nbsp; 2 hydrogen, 16 Oxygen<BR>&nbsp; 2/18 = 1/9<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; 1 Metric Ton of H2O = 1/9 ton H2<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; Therefore it takes 9 tons of H2O to get 1 ton of H2<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; Water Storage vs H2 Storage<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; 13.16 / 9 = 1.46&nbsp; volume conversion<BR><BR>&nbsp; What this means is that a Jump two ship could probably do one jump 2 and one <BR>jump 1 using the same volume of water as H2.<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; We will not even go through the calculations for other hydron carbons.<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; John W. Fox<BR>&nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:04:47 -0800<BR>From: Russell Bornschlegel &lt;kaleja@estarcion.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>Hal wrote:<BR>&gt; What else can go wrong that is annoying - potentially alarming,<BR>&gt; even demoralizing, yet not deadly enough to make a ship become rated as<BR>&gt; "unsafe".<BR><BR>I see that lots of people provided good specific quirks; my list of <BR>"higher-level", more pervasive starship quirks is at:<BR><BR>http://www.estarcion.com/kaleja/77quirks.html<BR><BR>- -Russell B<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:31:27 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 20:54, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt; Rob,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I believe that the slow pace of communication, coupled with the normal <BR>&gt; waxing and waning cycle of any population's degree of altruism, would tend <BR>&gt; to limit the amount of disaster relief between worlds.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The relatively high cost for refugees to flee any disaster, man made or <BR>&gt; natural, would insulate adjacent worlds from visable reminders of the <BR>&gt; "tragedy" occurrig next door.&nbsp; No weary mob of refugees, their worldly <BR>&gt; belongings stuffed in suitcases and valises, trudging across the border and <BR>&gt; tugging along their children will be seen.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; There would be no real time satellite transmissions of starving <BR>&gt; children on Roup beamed to the cities of Regina.&nbsp; Tsunami and earthquake <BR>&gt; survivors would have to wait 2+ weeks for any out sytem help to arrive, not <BR>&gt; the 1 or 2 day wait for relief supplies the residents of Central America <BR>&gt; have come to expect from the US.<BR><BR>So no Sally Struthers wanna-bes pleading for support on the local <BR>media? (Or as far away as they can reach, if the 'plight' is of long <BR>enough duration)&nbsp; I.e., after our discussions of the potential/probable <BR>role of the media in keeping the nobility in check in the judicial <BR>role, I could easily see them also being used to ask for relief aid <BR>from neighboring worlds.<BR>But I suppose the media has fragmented into official channels that deal <BR>with disseminating news to the populace and monitoring the nobility, <BR>and entertainment channels driven by commercial interests; and really <BR>listens to the official channels anymore. <BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (Please note that US relief efforts in Central America is not done out <BR>&gt; of the goodness of our hearts, but for rather more pragmatic concerns.&nbsp; We <BR>&gt; share a 3000km, undefended land border with several Third World nations.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; Anything we do to assuage the people in those nations holds down the level <BR>&gt; of illegal immigration.&nbsp; For the European members of the TML, may I suggest <BR>&gt; you envision a world in which the Mediterranean has dried up.&nbsp; The EU might <BR>&gt; then deal with North Africa much like the US deals with Central America.)<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Donor worlds current levels of altruism will have a great effect also.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; Look at the "donor fatigue" Third World nations now face when begging for <BR>&gt; alms.&nbsp; In the 80's, famine workers had to beat visiting celebrities off with <BR>&gt; a stick.&nbsp; Now they can't even get a check from them.&nbsp; This will change as <BR>&gt; society's memory of the fraud and waste surrounding the big efforts in the <BR>&gt; 80's fade.&nbsp; Relief fund raising will become "chic" again (note that actual <BR>&gt; relief work is never "chic") and the donations will again roll in.&nbsp; At least <BR>&gt; until society becomes revulsed with the waste or bored enough to move onto <BR>&gt; to the next "hot" thing.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The upshot?&nbsp; I don't envision a Imperium wide FEMA.&nbsp; Maybe ones <BR>&gt; organized by nobility in a subsector or sector basis, but funding will be <BR>&gt; tight and by subsrciption.&nbsp; Such agencies will pick and choose their battles <BR>&gt; and not repsond to every disaster.<BR><BR>Oh no, I wasn't envisioning that either.&nbsp; I was thinking of subsector <BR>level forces (ships, personnel, etc.) and maybe some sector level <BR>funding, with perhaps some assistance from the top (disseminating <BR>"lessons learned" type info, better rescue techniques/ship designs), <BR>and *maybe* funding in exceptional circumstances.&nbsp; <BR><BR>I suppose the "forces" would be more like using the Navy for emergency <BR>operations, but I'd been reminded of the rescue vehicle design in an&nbsp; <BR>online JTAS last year (redesigned scout for use as in-system <BR>'ambulance' IIRC), and was thinking of *some* kind of service more <BR>dedicated to rescue/emergency response than the Navy.&nbsp; <BR><BR>But then again, the subsector and planetary navies would utilize <BR>resources a little better (one subsector force instead of many <BR>individual world forces).<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I/O, I/O,<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; It's off to disk I go,<BR>A bit or byte to read or write,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I/O, I/O, I/O...<BR>- --<BR>- --on Rob Malda's Slashdot.org<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:29:24 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;This makes me wonder, how could/did the 3I *avoid* getting entangled<BR>&gt;in issues such as these?&nbsp; If the 3I is just a unifying police and <BR>&gt;protection force, then there would be many cases of injustices, <BR>&gt;misfortunes of circumstance, etc. where many people suffer, potentially <BR>&gt;needlessly, if the 3I stepped in and helped.&nbsp; <BR><BR>"The Imperium does not rule worlds, it rules the space between the worlds".<BR><BR>To suggest the Imperium steps in and helps is Dulinorism - a recovation of what has worked so well for <BR>1100 years ...<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I suppose there'd be some kind of disaster relief of a sort (rescue <BR>&gt;those colonists on an atm-0 world after the life support is struck by <BR>&gt;an asteroid [assume they can last at least two weeks to get the message <BR>&gt;out and rescuers back, ok, bad example, but something like that.]).<BR><BR>The 3I wouldnt. Elements of the 3I may unofficially do so.<BR><BR>For example, the Vilani megacorps look at the long term. I would imagine if this happens, a <BR>Makhadurin would look up the procedure manual, perhaps quickly calculate the net present value of <BR>the goodwill gained based on a planned level of disaster-recovery expenditure, and then do so.<BR><BR>An Imperial noble may say 'But by God, that means Rakkali's Betting Shop will have to close. Cant <BR>allow that, chaps ... I spent a lot of hours there in my younger days. I had to ship out of there in a hurry <BR>when my unit moved ... I think they still owe me fifty credits or so. Dammit, if they close, I'll never get <BR>that back ... I'll schedule a visit there, and get some people onto their problem with that damned <BR>boulder'. Of course, that is idealism in the cloak of a dilletant :)<BR><BR>If that world has an Imperial noble, then of course that individual can and must go in hock to their <BR>eyeballs and beyond - and if you are their friend, then declining to do what you can as well would not <BR>be good for your future social prospects.<BR><BR>Individual corporations may 'do the right thing' as well, for reasons of long-term profit as well as altruism <BR>(IMO in the 3I, corporations have 'social standing' as well).<BR><BR>I can easily see a Free Trader that has missed eight payments in the last fifteen staying to help as <BR>long as possible, relying on a quiet word from the Patron in charge of the rescue effort to stall their <BR>creditors (especially if the Free Trader was running some sort of physical risk to do the rescue. 'Let me <BR>get this straight, chaps. Leni has spent the last month in a shuttle doing hot landings on Allaxi IV in <BR>order to rescue Imperial Citizens from volcano eruptions, while his ship ferries them to safety on the <BR>Mainworld. Of course the man has cash-flow problems. And you cads want to reposess his ship ? Get <BR>out before I have you thrown out !")<BR><BR>The point I am trying to make is that the 3I has a network of non-State institutions that are good at <BR>dealing with short-term problems. It's the long-term systemic problems of underdevelopment it cant fix.<BR><BR>&gt;But wouldn't there have been pressure to help out in less dire <BR>&gt;circumstances?&nbsp; Lack of trade regulations causes one world to become <BR>&gt;unprofitable and forces most inhabitants to leave at great personal <BR>&gt;expense.&nbsp; Appeals to the local, subsector and sector nobles for relief <BR>&gt;would have to be numerous.&nbsp; Do they provide token assistance and say <BR>&gt;"that's all we have the resources for, you're basically on your own"?<BR>&gt;Even in the core worlds?&nbsp; (If so, that would promote population on <BR>&gt;"successful worlds" as opposed to the risky or unsuccessful ones, no?)<BR><BR>I dont get it. Why should the Imperium intervene, merely because Imperial citizens are choosing to <BR>make a life elsewhere ? It's not as if something happened that wasnt their fault ...<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>PS A lot of these views arent the way I'd run a technological interstellar state. But I think it is the <BR>ideology the 3I uses<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:46:00 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Paul_K=FCnnap?= &lt;kuennap@mappi.helsinki.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3720<BR><BR>Mr. bloo wrote<BR><BR>&gt; I think the existance of US copyright law prior to the invention of<BR>&gt; movies counters your view pretty well.<BR><BR>I admit to having omitted the important word "modern" from the word copyright <BR>law. US Copyright law per se existed since the 1790 federal copyright statute, <BR>but that was something very different from what we consider copyright law <BR>today, which in US was enacted with the Copyright Act of 1976 (I again admit to <BR>oversimplifying the matter a bit). From the international point of view US <BR>joined the Berne convention of 1886 only in 1988 (after which WTO and WIPO have <BR>of course changed things a bit). <BR><BR>Anyways my point was not to discuss US copyright law, but the fact that modern <BR>copyright law cannot handle the new media and therefore must be completely <BR>overhauled, meaning that 3I is likely to have very different copyright law than <BR>what we are used to now. <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:04:50 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 8:29, Ian or Katts wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;This makes me wonder, how could/did the 3I *avoid* getting entangled<BR>&gt; &gt;in issues such as these?&nbsp; If the 3I is just a unifying police and <BR>&gt; &gt;protection force, then there would be many cases of injustices, <BR>&gt; &gt;misfortunes of circumstance, etc. where many people suffer, potentially <BR>&gt; &gt;needlessly, if the 3I stepped in and helped.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; "The Imperium does not rule worlds, it rules the space between the worlds".<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; To suggest the Imperium steps in and helps is Dulinorism - a recovation of what has worked so well for <BR>&gt; 1100 years ...<BR><BR>True.&nbsp; "The Imperium is the facilitator and the police and defense, <BR>nothing more."<BR><BR>But didn't some other posts this week imply there was some [implicit] <BR>authority over the worlds despite the "rules the spaces" phrase?<BR>I.e., that's what they say when asked why they don't do X, but if it<BR>really came down to it, were extremely important, whatever, they <BR>*could* intervene. (But then those issues aren't what I was thinking <BR>about initially anyway. See below.)<BR><BR>&gt; The 3I wouldnt. Elements of the 3I may unofficially do so.<BR><BR>Good point.<BR><BR>&lt;snip very nice examples&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; The point I am trying to make is that the 3I has a network of non-State institutions that are good at <BR>&gt; dealing with short-term problems. It's the long-term systemic problems of underdevelopment it cant fix.<BR><BR>I guess that's what I was trying [feebly] to get at, as this started <BR>from discussions of economic policy and it's effects on society (corn <BR>laws in Britain, U.S. dairy trade regulations).&nbsp; <BR>I mentioned the lower level 'rescue' efforts as a side thought that <BR>evidently clouded my main point.&nbsp; Sorry.&nbsp; (Though the rescue stuff was <BR>interesting in itself.)<BR><BR>But the systemic problems of imbalance of wealth/technology/etc. is <BR>what I was wondering about - how could the 3I *not* get involved in <BR>helping underdeveloped regions improve their tech/trade levels?<BR><BR>(If this has been discussed to death before, just let me know.)<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;But wouldn't there have been pressure to help out in less dire <BR>&gt; &gt;circumstances?&nbsp; Lack of trade regulations causes one world to become <BR>&gt; &gt;unprofitable and forces most inhabitants to leave at great personal <BR>&gt; &gt;expense.&nbsp; Appeals to the local, subsector and sector nobles for relief <BR>&gt; &gt;would have to be numerous.&nbsp; Do they provide token assistance and say <BR>&gt; &gt;"that's all we have the resources for, you're basically on your own"?<BR>&gt; &gt;Even in the core worlds?&nbsp; (If so, that would promote population on <BR>&gt; &gt;"successful worlds" as opposed to the risky or unsuccessful ones, no?)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I dont get it. Why should the Imperium intervene, merely because <BR>&gt; &gt;Imperial citizens are choosing to <BR>&gt; make a life elsewhere ? It's not as if something happened that wasnt their fault ...<BR><BR>Sorry, I think I restated my point better above.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>BREAKFAST.COM halted: Cereal port not responding!<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:13:33 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR><BR>Rob Davenport writes:<BR><BR>&gt; But didn't some other posts this week imply there was some [implicit] <BR>&gt; authority over the worlds despite the "rules the spaces" phrase?<BR>&gt; I.e., that's what they say when asked why they don't do X, but if it<BR>&gt; really came down to it, were extremely important, whatever, they <BR>&gt; *could* intervene. (But then those issues aren't what I was thinking <BR>&gt; about initially anyway. See below.)<BR><BR>You mean like how the US federal government is resposible for 'interstate<BR>commerce'? ;)<BR><BR>&gt; But the systemic problems of imbalance of wealth/technology/etc. is <BR>&gt; what I was wondering about - how could the 3I *not* get involved in <BR>&gt; helping underdeveloped regions improve their tech/trade levels?<BR><BR>Well, it apparently doesn't.&nbsp; The most likely reason is that the Imperium<BR>is actually a rather weak government, fairly dependent on its member worlds<BR>to go along with it.&nbsp; A single pop-A high-tech world can typically withstand <BR>a sector fleet indefinately, so this is in fact fairly plausible.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:27:47 -0500<BR>From: "Thom Harris" &lt;thomharr@mediaone.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707<BR><BR>Wait, wait wait, are you having a Bar-B-Que without inviting me? They throw<BR>really great B-B-Q's in Texas too. I want the shank portion! (I heard it<BR>tastes just like chicken.) I have the perfect sauce too, 2 parts CT, 1 part<BR>MT, 3 parts TNE and 1 part G:T. Loren we still love you brother. Like<BR>someone else said years ago, "don't let the bastards wear you down."<BR><BR>I'll buy anything out there with your name on it, you're my/our kind of<BR>gamer. You write good stuff and you are here to listen to what we have to<BR>say and want. What more could an audience ask for out of it's writers? Not a<BR>damn thing....<BR><BR>Thom Harris - GOFIR - &lt;Gnarly Old Fart In Residence&gt;<BR>Life not only begins at forty, it begins to show.<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: &lt;GDWGAMES@aol.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:32 PM<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; And I don't much like people saying I should be set on fire either, like a<BR>&gt; previous offender.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:32:31 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Mr. Johnson,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I've read that he hadn't planned on releasing it as two movies but,<BR>&gt; after looking at all the footage, realized he'd either have to throw away<BR>&gt; priceless stuff or make two films.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This, of course, coud just be another Hollywood legend.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>My understanding is that two movies were planned, but were filmed as one to<BR>avoid paying the cast for both films.&nbsp; fortunately for the actors, after<BR>filming, some additional scenes were required and they were able to<BR>negotiate pay for both films.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:59:48 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 15:01, Mark F. Cook wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Ah, yes. Reminds me of the bad ol' days at MCRD. The DI is demonstrating<BR>&gt; the proper thrust/recover for bayonet work.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; DI: "In the event that your bayonet becomes lodged in the body of<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; your opponent, a simple discharge of your weapon is usually<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; sufficient to dislodge the blade."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Recruit: "Ah, Gunnery Sgt.&nbsp; If I'm still capable of discharging my weapon,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; there ain't gonna *BE* no bayonet combat!!"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The rest of the class went downhill from there.<BR><BR>I'm not surprised. They never bothered teaching us Territorials bayonet <BR>fighting, though I think the Regulars were stillintructed in it. It wouldn't <BR>surprise me if that's been stopped since I left, though - the Steyr AUG is <BR>about the worst bayonet platform imaginable.<BR><BR>Given that our attitude in the terries was pretty close to that of that recruit <BR>it was probably just as well. In our opinion as long as there was ammo there <BR>wouldn't be any of that uncouth bayonet and knife crap, and if there was no <BR>ammo we wouldn't be in combat, one way or the other.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3723<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xd02.mx.aol.com (rly-xd02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.167]) by air-xd01.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:02:56 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xd02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:02:37 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA81767;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:00:25 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:59:52 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA81663<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:59:52 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:59:52 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102212259.RAA81663@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3723<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3724</B></TD></TR>
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<TD>2/21/01 5:33:07 PM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, February 21 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3724<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: HTML gibberish<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR>RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR>Re: Don't run...<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Darrian names?<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>OT: Copyright (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3720)<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:00:20 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Rob Davenport writes:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; But the systemic problems of imbalance of wealth/technology/etc. is <BR>&gt;&gt; what I was wondering about - how could the 3I *not* get involved in <BR>&gt;&gt; helping underdeveloped regions improve their tech/trade levels?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Well, it apparently doesn't.&nbsp; The most likely reason is that the Imperium<BR>&gt; is actually a rather weak government, fairly dependent on its member worlds<BR>&gt; to go along with it.&nbsp; A single pop-A high-tech world can typically withstand <BR>&gt; a sector fleet indefinately, so this is in fact fairly plausible.<BR><BR>Not bloody likely. Note the Imperium itself is above the Imperial Rules <BR>of War.<BR><BR>CF: The Pacification Campaigns, where the Imperium pretty much wiped out <BR>the ecosystem on the original Iiliesh sector capital after the first <BR>Iiliesh Rebellion.<BR><BR>If a high-pop world gave the Imperium enough reason to, the Navy would <BR>(and could!) reduce the world to bedrock and a poisoned atmosphere.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Or they could starve 'em out and ruin them financially by stopping <BR>offworld trade, or simply infiltrate a huge number of IISS political <BR>covert ops and destabilize the existing gummint.<BR><BR>Why doesn't this happen? Because large, High-pop, High-tech worlds have <BR>far too much invested in the status quo to mess things up like that. The <BR>Imperial practice of co-opting the ruling classes upon incorporation <BR>into the Imperium and setting them up as nobles made that certain.<BR><BR>The same intertwined fortunes of the Nobility and the Megacorps taht <BR>makes up the Imperium binds the Nobles to the status quo. They're not <BR>going to do anything to rock the boat.<BR><BR>The reason there are undeveloped areas in the 3I is it's not <BR>economically viable. An area has to have something of value in order to <BR>be developed, mere rock and a possibly breathable atmosphere doesn't cut it.<BR><BR>1) It's not like the Imperium has serious population pressures, outside <BR>threats (The Zhodani are a threat locally to _parts_ of the Spinward <BR>Marches...remember one of the Frontier Wars was started, fought and <BR>settled before word even got to Core about it and back with orders. (The <BR>Third? Fourth?))<BR><BR>So there's nothing to really drive development of undeveloped areas on a <BR>really large scale.<BR><BR>2) Much of the development efforts of the 3I are going to be driven by <BR>the Megacorps. These aren't entities that worry about next months bottom <BR>line so long as next _centuries_ is ok. There is endless time to <BR>properly engulf the undeveloped worlds.<BR><BR>3) Finally, some 90% or more of the 3I's population already live on the <BR>10% high-pop worlds; the rest of the boonies don't have enough people to <BR>make the expense of development worthwhile.<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:02:16 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 15:07, Mark F. Cook wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt; writes:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;For what it's worth, thrusting weapons are generally mor lethal than<BR>&gt; &gt;choppers (e.g. cultlass).&nbsp; The Romans understood this, and used the Gladius<BR>&gt; &gt;primarily as a thrusting weapon.&nbsp; The same for the Zulu short spear.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; That would be the Assegai.&nbsp; Ask the British foot soldiers defending Rourkes<BR>&gt; Drift about that one. :^)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; The human skeleton is marvelously designed to fend of slashing attacks.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Well, up to a point.&nbsp; A blade that is heavy enough (and sharp enough)<BR>&gt; is plenty efficient at removing limbs (and heads), as any Samurai can<BR>&gt; attest.<BR><BR>And participants in Fijian feuds. a friend of mine was witness to such a feud - <BR>a couple of young men had this dispute over a girl, and the mext day the <BR>brother of one of them walked up to the other and assaulted him with cane <BR>knives (which are rather like machetes in size and shpe) and chopped one of the <BR>victims arms off.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:06:13 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 15:29, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Dum-dums, and (I think) shotguns are banned under the various Hague<BR>&gt; conventions<BR>&gt; &gt; (pre-WWI), not the Geneva conventions (which the USA never ratified, BTW).<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; IIRC, shotguns are not specifically banned.&nbsp; However, the German government<BR>&gt; complained that the US use of shotguns violated the ban on weapons designed to<BR>&gt; cause undue suffering.<BR><BR>Which was quite funny given that they first used flamethrowers (and poison gas, <BR>though the aliies were actually the first to manufacture it).<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:22:38 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 18:36, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; as a somewhat interesting aside: When I was preparing to get out, a<BR>&gt; subcontractor we had on board was describing the hardships that existed in<BR>&gt; the job market for a retired CPO. According to him there were just no jobs<BR>&gt; to be had that paid as much as being on active duty. Of course he was a Mess<BR>&gt; Specialist, which meant that he was doing a job that is often performed by young<BR>&gt; people in their mid-twenties (as are most McD's managers.) He was a sales rep<BR>&gt; for one of the galley suppliers. He couldn't conceive of the fact that an<BR>&gt; ex-nuc, qualified as an Engineer Watch Officer (On steam and Gas Turbines), who<BR>&gt; also managed to get a BS while on active duty, might be able to find a job with<BR>&gt; a salary higher than an E-8 without great difficulty. Basically very few people<BR>&gt; outside the military get the pay of a Chief Mess Specialist, Yeoman or Personnel<BR>&gt; Specialist for doing the same job. Very few Chief Electronic Technicians,<BR>&gt; Electricians, or any of the computer specialty ratings make as little as they do<BR>&gt; in the military doing the same job. Just more proof of your point.<BR><BR>I'm begining to think the problem is one that has no ready solution. It looks <BR>like the basic issue is that the supply and demand curves for various <BR>specialites, etc are different inside and outside the military. Simply changing <BR>the pay rates won't fix this, because on a ship the cooks, etc are just as <BR>important to the function of the ship, and paying them less than other <BR>specialties just because they've got nowhere better to go will damage their <BR>morale. Our Army has this problem because of under-paying the infantry (though <BR>their pay scales are the same, they don't get bonuses for civvie quals, etc), <BR>and the only answer anybody's come up with is to pay everyone in the military <BR>more, which ain't going to happen.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:22:38 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: HTML gibberish<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 19:39, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Gentles<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's? (just to<BR>&gt; pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any special steps to prevent<BR>&gt; it. <BR><BR>Nope, and your headers proclaim that you're posting in ASCII, so it's not just <BR>my email program (which is very good at hiding such crap from me).<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:22:38 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 15:32, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; The human skeleton is marvelously designed to fend of slashing attacks.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Well, up to a point.&nbsp; A blade that is heavy enough (and sharp enough)<BR>&gt; &gt; is plenty efficient at removing limbs (and heads), as any Samurai can<BR>&gt; &gt; attest.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; True, but technically a katana or wakazashi is really a big knife from the<BR>&gt; standpoint of construction.&nbsp; Axes work well, too, BTW.<BR><BR>In terms of function, perhaps - contruction, no. If you make a balde that <BR>length the way you make a shorter blade you're liable to have real problems. <BR>This is assuming traditional construction techniques. Using modern steels and <BR>'lost metal' (what most people would call 'grinding', but that sounds so srude <BR>:) techniques the blade length isn't so important.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:27:25 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson writes:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Well, it apparently doesn't.&nbsp; The most likely reason is that the Imperium<BR>&gt; &gt; is actually a rather weak government, fairly dependent on its member<BR>&gt; &gt; worlds to go along with it.&nbsp; A single pop-A high-tech world can<BR>&gt; &gt; typically withstand&nbsp; a sector fleet indefinately, so this is in fact<BR>&gt; &gt; fairly plausible. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Not bloody likely. Note the Imperium itself is above the Imperial Rules <BR>&gt; of War.<BR><BR>Witness Invasion Earth.&nbsp; In the Spinward Marches, Mora and Trin each account<BR>for around 10% of the total GSP, and since they put about as much into their<BR>system defenses as they put into the IN, they've got about 10% of the total<BR>forces.&nbsp; Except, it's spent on system defenses rather than on jump-capable<BR>ships, so it's more like 1/5.&nbsp; <BR><BR>I was exaggerating, but only a little bit.&nbsp; Subduing an unruly major world <BR>would take massive mobilization over a large area, and might well tempt<BR>indiscretions by your neighbors.<BR><BR>The fact that Traveller has all of these 'system defense fleets', that are<BR>apparently locally controlled, is one of the strongest arguments against the<BR>existence of a strong central imperium.&nbsp; Imagine what the US would be if all<BR>fifty states had their own armed forces, and you have the Imperium.<BR>&gt; -- <BR>&gt; Bruce Johnson<BR>&gt; University of Arizona<BR>&gt; College of Pharmacy<BR>&gt; Information Technology Group<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:35:18 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 4:34, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "What were the corn laws?"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Mr. Harris,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The Corn Laws were a series of statutes in Britain that forbid the <BR>&gt; importation of corn (what North Americans call wheat) except at certain <BR>&gt; prices and quantities.&nbsp; It was ensure high market prices for home grown <BR>&gt; corn.&nbsp; Seeing as nobles owned most of the farms growing said crop, keeping the<BR>&gt; prices high was in their best interest.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Eventually, the rise in population, coupled with the labor needs of the<BR>&gt; newly indutrialized cities and towns, meant that Britain could no longer feed<BR>&gt; itself (this occurred roughly between 1820 to 1850).&nbsp; Agitation to repeal the<BR>&gt; Corn Laws was actually greater than agitation to allow more men to the vote. <BR>&gt; After all, wheat is bread, and bread is life.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Of course the nobility, and the newly wealthy enscounced in their <BR>&gt; rotten borough seats in the Commons, resisted any efforts to reduce the <BR>&gt; tariffs out of self interest.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A good parallel for us might be the dairy price supports championed by Sen.<BR>&gt; Proxmire.&nbsp; Intially meant to ensure that milk would available for children (a<BR>&gt; cynical motive if there ever was one), they have slowly driven smaller dairies<BR>&gt; out of the marketplace be reducing profit margins.<BR><BR>A better one might be your quotas on lamb and mutton imports. Designed to keep <BR>your sheep farmers from actually having to farm efficiently by keeping NZ and <BR>Aussie lamb and mutton out of the US. Never mind that in order for the US to be <BR>much of a market the amount of sheep meat consumed by Americans would have to <BR>go up enormously (IIRC it currently runs at about 1/2 lb per person per year), <BR>and that we (NZ) were looking at a large advertising push to put this up which <BR>would probably also benefit the US sheep industry, too (assuming that their <BR>product was at all competitive).<BR><BR>Yes, US import quotas are a sore point in some parts of the world. :)<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:40:59 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On 20 Feb 2001, at 23:44, JR Holmes wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;This was intended to encourage and support dairy farmers<BR>&gt; outside the state of Wisconsin on the theory that milk, being a<BR>&gt; perishable product, was better produced close to the consumers.<BR><BR>They're right about this, if nothing else. Some brands of milk here in NZ are <BR>transported about 300 miles to get to where I am, and their quality is <BR>noticablely lower than that of more locally produced milk. Aside from being <BR>about a day older, the vibration during transit isn't that good for milk.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:42:23 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR><BR>&gt;The fact that Traveller has all of these 'system defense fleets', that are<BR>&gt;apparently locally controlled, is one of the strongest arguments against<BR>the<BR>&gt;existence of a strong central imperium.&nbsp; Imagine what the US would be if<BR>all<BR>&gt;fifty states had their own armed forces, and you have the Imperium.<BR><BR>This existed one time in the United States Pre 1860. There was the Federal<BR>government and each of the states where responsable for producing units for<BR>the army for the federal/confederate governments. This war was a war that<BR>decided that from that time on there would be a strong federal government.<BR>That is why before and during the civil war you see Units like<BR><BR>12th Illinois Volunteer Infantry<BR>32nd Alabama Volunteer Infantry (my Great grand dads unit. )<BR>15th new york Artillary<BR><BR>and why after the war there was a restructuring of the armys. and then you<BR>had things like<BR><BR>7th US calvary<BR><BR>OBTrav: The Players are scouts pulled back into service to provide scouting<BR>and recon for the imperial navy. they get assigned to 5th Regina Defence<BR>Fleet which is being sent to crush the enemy on a moon in a near by system.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:45:12 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Don't run...<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 9:14, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; At 03:22 PM 2/20/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;It should be noted that army snipers in Viet Nam actually racked up a larger<BR>&gt; &gt;number of kills, on average, per sniper.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The army sniper were used differently.&nbsp; A matter of tactics, really.&nbsp; Also, the<BR>&gt; army shooters worked a more "target-rich" envitonment.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;Also, unlike a sniper, an AC130 spectre is good for a grid square.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Yes, but I can stop an entire regiment with one bullet at the right time.<BR>&gt; Properly used, snipers are an extremely effective method of disrupting<BR>&gt; enemy operations.<BR><BR>They're also a lot cheaper than AC130's plus air crew, maintenence, fuel, etc, <BR>etc.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:49:00 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 9:18, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I didn't know I could do that many push ups with a M-16A1 balanced on the<BR>&gt; back of my hands.<BR><BR>Your instructors were nice. Our used to make you "form the position" (get into <BR>position to do press-ups), and then make you hold the M16A1 out in front of <BR>your using one arm for as long as possible, sometimes with your opposite foor <BR>also in the air. I think two minutes was about the record, and failure to <BR>impress the sadis...er Corporal was cause for a lot of running and press-ups <BR>while everyone else was ironing their uniforms (thus involving more press-ups, <BR>etc for not having your kit up to scratch...).<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:49:55 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR><BR>William Lane writes:<BR><BR>&gt; This existed one time in the United States Pre 1860. There was the Federal<BR>&gt; government and each of the states where responsable for producing units for<BR>&gt; the army for the federal/confederate governments. This war was a war that<BR>&gt; decided that from that time on there would be a strong federal government.<BR><BR>I know.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:59:40 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 16:05, Rob Davenport wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On 21 Feb 2001, at 11:18, William Lane wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;And there may be a significant amount of actual history that<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion.&nbsp; For<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;example, the United States of America until the invention of<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; the telegraph.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the Imperium<BR>&gt; &gt; faces.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Would a better example than the U.S. be the British Empire at it's <BR>&gt; height in the age of sail (uh, *think* *think* *think*, mid- late-<BR>&gt; 1850s?).&nbsp; How long did it take to sail from Portsmouth to Botany Bay, <BR>&gt; for example?&nbsp; (he said, having just finished reading P.O'Brian's <BR>&gt; "Desolation Island".)&nbsp; Certainly less than the year or two I believe is <BR>&gt; quoted for Regina to Capital, but substantial nonetheless.<BR><BR>A colonist ship from England to New Zealand at that time allowed up to six <BR>months, but I think four was more normal.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:03:58 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 15:42, William Lane wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;The fact that Traveller has all of these 'system defense fleets', that are<BR>&gt; &gt;apparently locally controlled, is one of the strongest arguments against<BR>&gt; the<BR>&gt; &gt;existence of a strong central imperium.&nbsp; Imagine what the US would be if<BR>&gt; all<BR>&gt; &gt;fifty states had their own armed forces, and you have the Imperium.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; This existed one time in the United States Pre 1860. There was the Federal<BR>&gt; government and each of the states where responsable for producing units for the<BR>&gt; army for the federal/confederate governments.<BR><BR>Check out the US units in the War of 1812. At that time the federal government <BR>didn't have the right to tax or raise troops, and relied on the member states <BR>providing military units. After the war this changed, and it's one of the <BR>reasons I manitain that the only winner in that war was the US Federal <BR>government.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:38:25 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>At 11:01 AM -0500 2/21/01, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;The Roman Empire is an example of how a Republic couldn't maintain a<BR>&gt;democracy over the stresses.&nbsp; Though, IIRC, Rome did not try and<BR>&gt;extend democracy to all its territories, so the size of the area that<BR>&gt;they tried to keep the Republic for was smaller than the size of<BR>&gt;empire.&lt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;In what way was Rome a Democracy?<BR>&gt;Even the Republic was an oligarchy and not a republic.<BR><BR>Yeah, that further lessens the analogy, but I didn't want to get into that....<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:42:05 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>At 10:27 AM -0800 2/21/01, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>&gt;In mail you write:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;And there may be a significant amount of actual history that<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion.&nbsp; For<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;example, the United States of America until the invention of<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; the telegraph.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the <BR>&gt;Imperium faces.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Oh? Check the travel times between California and the east coast back<BR>&gt;before the railroad.<BR><BR>&lt;Shrug&gt;<BR><BR>The bulk of the US was within decent travel times and the railroad <BR>came shortly afterward (and the issue if communications, the <BR>telegraph was earlier than the railroad, but I don't know the date). <BR>Also, the times even for pony express wasn't bad either.&nbsp; Much better <BR>than in the Imperium.<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:44:01 -0500<BR>From: Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Darrian names?<BR><BR>On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:17:07 -0500 (EST), JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Since I appear to be the second "me too" to post this, perhaps you<BR>&gt;could arrange to have this posted on one of the friendly Traveller web<BR>&gt;sites as well.<BR><BR>&gt;I see that Jeff Zeitlin has something similar (though, from what I can<BR>&gt;tell, not as diverse) being hosted at Freelance Traveller.&nbsp; Perhaps<BR>&gt;you could arrange the same.<BR><BR>If the worksheet can be downloaded - ftp or http - from somewhere, if the<BR>author will send me location info and a brief description, I can add it to<BR>Freelance Traveller's Computer Connection.&nbsp; Duplication of functionality is<BR>no bar to inclusion in the listing.&nbsp; Lack of knowledge _is_ - if I don't<BR>know about it, I can't include it!<BR><BR>As far as 'less diverse', the languages listed for the worksheet are Ael<BR>Yael, Aslan, Darrian, Dynchia, Gvegh, Happirhvani, Hhkar, K'kree, Norsk,<BR>Oynprith, Vilani, Vuakedh and Zhodani.&nbsp; My WordGen (on Freelance Traveller)<BR>misses Vuakedh and K'kree, but includes Arrghoun (another Vargr language),<BR>Cafadi (not sure of the source), Dutch, Finnish, Maori, North Answerin (not<BR>sure of the source), Thrintun (Larry Niven - forgot which story), and<BR>Welsh.&nbsp; And at some point, I can add K'kree, as I have all the info<BR>necessary.&nbsp; Just never got around to it.&nbsp; Most of the language definition<BR>files for WordGen are converted from tables found on the now-defunct<BR>Traveller at Don Mills web pages.<BR>- --<BR>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:52:59 -0800<BR>From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR>...<BR>&gt;And how would the surrounding empires react.&nbsp; I can easily see the Solomani<BR>&gt;supporting the democrats, what about the others?<BR><BR>&nbsp; I can see the Solomani supporting whoever will keep it going<BR>the longest :|<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:07:12 -0500<BR>From: "Chris Seamans" &lt;semo@pil.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>Rob Myers wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;A rebellion in a setting the size of the Imperium would rapidly become<BR>factionalized, with protracted<BR>&gt;conflict between competing factions breaking down the Imperium's<BR>infrastructure. If anyone released a<BR>&gt;doomsday weapon, things would get really nasty.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I've just had the strangest feeling of deja vu...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; It wouldn't really have to be that way. There is little doubt that things<BR>would quickly become factionalized, but that doesn't mean that a protracted<BR>conflict between competing factions would be inevitable. Indeed, most of the<BR>Rebellion's bloodshed could be said to be a result of two simple facts. One:<BR>Lucan was a bitch, and Two: Dulinor's plan, though apparently well-intended,<BR>was executed in such a way that the crap and the fan ran into each other<BR>much too quickly. A sweeping popular movement (which strikes me as a very<BR>important requirement for something like Bloo's "Democratic Imperium") would<BR>likely have very different consequences.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:24:11 -0800<BR>From: "Kelly St.Clair" &lt;kellys@efn.org&gt;<BR>Subject: OT: Copyright (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3720)<BR><BR>As I understand it, there are two major objections to copyright as it is <BR>practiced today (besides the simple desire to get stuff for free, which is <BR>really at the core of Napster, software piracy, etc):<BR><BR>(1)&nbsp; As others have noted on this thread, "things" which can be infinitely <BR>and perfectly copied, easily and inexpensively, and in some cases <BR>necessarily (copies of web pages in your browser's cache, for example) <BR>break most of the old assumptions.&nbsp; If you have a book, and you give it to <BR>someone else, you no longer have a copy of the book.&nbsp; Not so with a Word <BR>doc, HTML page, or MP3 file.<BR><BR>Of course, some would say it's just as ludicrous to try and copyright <BR>intangible things like ideas.&nbsp; Which leads me to...<BR><BR>(2)&nbsp; Copyright was originally intended only to apply for a finite period; a <BR>promise that the government would protect your work from being stolen, but <BR>after X years, after you've made your money on it, it becomes public <BR>property.&nbsp; However, powerful corporations who derive much of their income <BR>from certain intellectual property (*cough*Disney*cough*) have a STRONG <BR>interest in not letting the rights to that IP ever enter the public domain, <BR>and have successfully lobbied to have the period extended every few years.<BR><BR>In simpler language:&nbsp; practically if not yet literally, NO corporate-owned <BR>IP will EVER enter public domain again, as long as there's a scrap of money <BR>to be made off it.&nbsp; Monopoly in perpetuity.<BR><BR>- --------------<BR>Kelly St.Clair&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "'Cause you've got Trouble<BR>kellys@efn.org&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Right here in fair Verona<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; With a capital T that rhymes with D<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; That stands for Duel..."<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:29:08 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR><BR>Alan Bradley writes:<BR><BR>&gt;A lot depends on how you see the nobility.&nbsp; There are two main schools of<BR>&gt;thought as to what the nobility is.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;One is that the nobility is created from above.&nbsp; That is, they are the<BR>&gt;agents of the Imperium/Emperor, interacting with Imperial member worlds in<BR>&gt;a manner something like diplomats.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The other is that the nobility are the local elites of the imperial worlds<BR>&gt;and corporations, given titles and funny hats to wear.&nbsp; In this model,<BR>&gt;Delphine of Mora is a Duchess because she rules Mora.&nbsp; She doesn't rule<BR>&gt;Mora because she is a Duchess.<BR><BR>My take is that the former is the theory while the latter is the practice. That<BR>is, the Imperium would like to keep planetary rulers and Imperial nobility<BR>separate, but when a planetary ruler is too powerful, practical adjustments<BR>must be made.<BR><BR>Here's an essay I wrote about it some years ago. Apologies to those of you who<BR>has already seen it (Actually, I've rewritten it, so there may be something new<BR>for you too)..<BR><BR>The first question I'd like to address is the overall structure of the<BR>Imperium. We're told that the Imperium is feudal, but just what kind of<BR>feudality is it. It is not the traditional set-up we know from Europe and<BR>Japan, where the overlord owns the land and lends it to his vassals in return<BR>for support. Most of the worlds the Emperor appoints nobles to does not<BR>belong to him, and in many cases his vassals don't get much say in how it is<BR>run (All worlds with democratically elected governments, for instance). Nor<BR>is it the feudal technocracy of various fiction writers, where land has been<BR>replaced by industrial holdings because, again, the Emperor does not own many<BR>companies outright; all the major companies we hear of are share companies,<BR>with the Emperor a minority shareholder in them all.<BR><BR>The answer comes when one consider that the salient point in a feudality is<BR>not land or factories but power. It's just that in a traditional feudality<BR>land is the source of power and in a feudal technocracy industrial holdings<BR>are the source of power. I suggest that the power the Emperor lends out to<BR>his vassals in return for their fealthy is the power to collect Imperial<BR>taxes plus whatever other prerogatives the member worlds has ceeded to the<BR>Emperor..<BR><BR><BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; THE STRUCTURE OF THE IMPERIUM<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =============================<BR><BR>In theory the structure of the Imperium is very simple: Each star system<BR>constitutes a sovereignty governed in any way its inhabitants see fit. As<BR>members of the Imperium these sovereignties have surrendered certain of<BR>their rights to the Emperor; they agree to let him collect and administer<BR>a certain percentage of their annual production, to obey a number of basic<BR>laws (the Imperial High Laws), to let him tax certain activities, and to<BR>leave foreign relations with non-Imperial states to him. The Emperor turns<BR>over these rights to his vassals in return for fealthy and these vassals in<BR>turn parcel them out to lesser vassals. Each star system thus have two<BR>associated authorities: its own government administering system affairs and<BR>an Imperial noble administering Imperial affairs.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; That's the theory. Human nature (and most alien natures too) being<BR>what it is, it is no surprise that in practice exceptions abound. Indeed, it<BR>could be said that the exceptions are the norm.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; MULTI-SYSTEM SOVEREIGNTIES: The Imperium frown on multi-system<BR>sovereignties, but quite a number of these exist. In the early days of the<BR>Imperium many pocket empires joined it as a unit. Whenever possible the<BR>Imperium tries to break these up eventually, but a number still exists even<BR>today. On occasion the Imperium has even been obliged to form some of its<BR>own to meet exceptional political problems; the largest and most famous<BR>examples are the Antarean and Solomani Autonomous regions. A more frequent<BR>source of multi-system sovereignties are the planting of colonies by member<BR>systems. Imperial policy favors the granting of full membership to colony<BR>worlds that have grown big enough to make it on their own (which is why some<BR>colonies are deliberately kept much smaller than optimum by their mother<BR>worlds), but if a former colony prefers union with its mother world there is<BR>not much the Imperium can do about it. Mega-corporations and the largest<BR>sector-wide companies constitutes another kind of multi-system sovereignty.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; IMPERIAL WORLD LEADERS: The principle of having two different kinds<BR>of leaders, system leaders and Imperial nobles, frequently run afoul of the<BR>pride and ambition of powerful world leaders, especially if they are<BR>hereditary rulers. It often becomes a political necessity to appoint them<BR>Imperial nobles. Thus the Matriarch of Mora is both the head of the Moran<BR>government and the Duchess of Mora Subsector. The reverse can also happen.<BR>An unscrupulous Imperial noble assigned to a young, developing world is in a<BR>very good position to acquire title to vast tracts of land. In some cases he<BR>can end up owning, or at least running, the whole world.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; IMPERIALLY OWNED WORLDS: Over the years the Imperium have acquired<BR>outright ownership of a lot of real estate including a number of whole<BR>worlds. When that is the case, the noble assigned to it controls both its<BR>internal and its Imperial affairs.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>Imperial nobles have two different kinds of fiefs. One is a personal fief<BR>granted to him in order to provide him with a secure income. Money<BR>derived from personal fiefs go into the noble's private accounts and are<BR>theoretically his to spend as he wants (in practice nobles with really<BR>big personal incomes may be expected to contribute some of that wealth<BR>for various semi-official purposes). This kind of fief is sometimes also<BR>called an estate (An Imperial estate to distinguish it from a personal<BR>estate which the noble own in his own right). The size and value of an<BR>Imperial estate can vary tremendously. Not only may the Emperor give purely<BR>symbolic estates to nobles who are rich in their own right and substantial<BR>estates to others who are less well endowed, but a relatively poor estate<BR>granted centuries earlier may have grown in value over the years. The<BR>reverse, where a formerly rich estate loses its value also happens<BR>occasionally, although it is rarer.<BR><BR>The other kind of fief is the kind described in the first paragraph of this<BR>article, the power to collect and administer (or in the case of lesser<BR>nobles, to collect and pass on to higher authorities) Imperial taxes. This is<BR>also sometimes called a charge.<BR><BR>It is usually said that each Imperial world has a marquis associated with it.<BR>This is true if the world is of reasonably high tech level and has a<BR>population level of 7 or 8. The Imperial taxes from such a world comes to<BR>something between MCr1000 and MCr100,000. Any world with taxes less than<BR>MCr1000 will propably only rate a baron. A world with taxes higher than<BR>MCr100,000 rates a count. Some worlds are too small to rate even a baron.<BR>Such worlds are usually part of a neighboring fief.<BR><BR>Rank&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Charge&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Typical estate&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Typical value<BR><BR>Knight&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -<BR>Banneret&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 10 square kilometers&nbsp; &nbsp; MCr5<BR>Baron&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Part of world&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 100 sq km&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; MCr50<BR>Marquis&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; One world&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1000 sq km&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; MCr500<BR>Count&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Several worlds&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 10,000 sq km&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; MCr5,000<BR>Duke&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subsector/sector&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 100,000 sq km&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; MCr50,000<BR>Archduke&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Domain&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Entire world&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; MCr500,000<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Further comments: This setup allows for a lot of local variety. You can have<BR>nobles who function like viceroys (like Delphine of Mora), nobles who<BR>function as governors-general, and nobles who function like ambassadors, all<BR>depending on the political setup on their world. You can have nobles whose<BR>ancestor used to run the world as the local ruler, but who was sidelined<BR>when the world changed to democratic rule in a (bloodless) revolution. You<BR>can have semi-autonomous duchies (Nothing smaller than a sector would be able<BR>to have true internal autonomy, but just as the Imperium chooses to leave the<BR>individuals worlds to run themselves it may choose to leave a duchy pretty<BR>much alone as long as it didn't make waves).<BR><BR>Next a rather more troublesome question, namely: How many Imperial nobles are<BR>there?<BR><BR>The trouble is that you get vastly different figures when you make a top down<BR>and when you make a bottom up analysis. Going from the top down we have:<BR><BR>7 archdukes.<BR>One duke per subsector or ca. 300 dukes[1].<BR>Maybe 2-3 counts per subsector or ca. 750 counts[2].<BR>One marquess per important world not having a count or duke or 3-4000<BR>marquesses depending on various assumptions[3].<BR>An undisclosed number of barons. Some worlds only rate a baron, but do worlds<BR>with marquesses, counts, or dukes have a number of barons too?<BR><BR>[1] Note that some subsectors have no high-population worlds and would seem<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; unable to support a duke. YMMV.<BR>[2] Unless worlds with a duke also have a couple of counts. The impression I<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; get is one world, one noble (Indeed, the examples of Norris and Leonard<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; of Aramis seems to show that one noble can have _several_ worlds), but I<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; can't quote any definitive statement.<BR>[3] Again, worlds with dukes and counts may have marquesses too. I don't like<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; the idea, but YMMV.<BR><BR>In addition to these rank nobles there are a an undefined number of honor<BR>barons and honor marquesses (but NOT counts and dukes).&nbsp; [_Imperial<BR>Encyclopedia_, p. 13].<BR><BR>Going from the bottom up (per the Character generation system) we have a HUGE<BR>number of honor nobles. Even if we assume that the number of Imperial barons<BR>in the general population is lower than among PC material [4], the CGS still<BR>allow people who start out as SL 10 to advance to the peerage. Worse, the<BR>CGS allow people to advance to SL 15 despite the statement that counts and<BR>dukes are not awarded for achievement alone.<BR><BR>[4] Which is a fair assumption, but marred by the fact that for twenty years<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Traveller authors have used the CGS system to create NPC, giving us such<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; oddities as customs officials and privates of marines who are barons...<BR><BR>It seems to me that the treatment of Imperial nobles in the canon has failed<BR>to consider how much power an Imperial noble would wield. A duke controls<BR>the might of 30 worlds. The most powerful rulers in Earth's history only<BR>controlled a part of a continent, albeit in some cases a rather large part. A<BR>count may only control one or two percent of his world's GWP, but it would be<BR>the GWP of more than a billion people. The American president controls a<BR>larger slice, but of a smaller pie, and he has a congress to keep him in line<BR>too. Yet all the adventures I have seen treats an Imperial noble more or less<BR>like his European namesake. I think an Imperial baron (or at least a marquis)<BR>would be more like a king or even an emperor than a small noble.<BR><BR>IMO whoever wrote the essay about nobles in _Library Data, (N-Z)_ made a<BR>mistake when he made the noble titles given out by the CGS into Imperial<BR>titles. In the original rules they were local (planetary) titles (There were<BR>two more levels abobe, prince and king, and these were used by actual rulers<BR>of worlds [Book 3, p. 22]). By making them Imperial nobles instead, an overlap<BR>between local planet-bound nobles and their much more powerful star-spanning<BR>Imperial namesakes were created and an entire slice of society left out of the<BR>system. It leaps directly from the upper middle class (SL 10) to the Imperial<BR>knight (SL 11). There is no room for the minor nobles that are so much more<BR>suitable for travellerhood. You know; the younger son who won't get anything<BR>when his father dies, the remittance man, the disinherited one, the displaced<BR>one, the one who owns nothing but his good name and his faithful robot servant,<BR>and all the other small nobles who is forced to leave home to seek their<BR>fortune elsewhere. True, Imperial nobles have younger sons too, but when an<BR>Imperial noble on a high-population world can easily rule more people than an<BR>Old Earth emperor, will even their younger sons be treated like younger sons of<BR>small barons? Wouldn't any child of an Imperial noble be more trapped by his or<BR>her birth than any prince or princess you can find on Earth today?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3724<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xa03.mx.aol.com (rly-xa03.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.72]) by air-xa05.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:33:07 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xa03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:32:30 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id UAA88631;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:29:34 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:29:12 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA88584<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:29:12 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:29:12 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102220129.UAA88584@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3724<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3725</B></TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, February 21 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3725<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR>RE: What could go wrong?&nbsp; <BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR>System defenses<BR>More KB3 Questions<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>RE: Civility and Politeness<BR>Re: En Garde<BR>Re: System defenses<BR>Virus (not a flamewar starter, was Re: Democracy Now!)<BR>more sword stuff<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Ammonia<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: fencing<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:58:25 -0600<BR>From: Richard Wilson &lt;rtwilson@rollanet.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>At 03:16 PM 2/21/01, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Hello Everyone:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Sometime in the past (roughly a week ago I think), someone said that you <BR>&gt; could<BR>&gt;just fill up iwth water instead of H2 and this would give you alot more fuel.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; After thinking about this for a while I decided to crunch some numbers <BR>&gt; just for<BR>&gt;the heck of it and also to satisfy my curiousity.&nbsp; What follows is back of <BR>&gt;the<BR>&gt;envolpe calculation on H2 vs H2O.<BR><BR>Snip<BR><BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; We will not even go through the calculations for other hydron carbons.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; John W. Fox<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Methane should work even better.<BR><BR>Four tons (by weight) of methane should give you one ton (by weight) of <BR>hydrogen. Don't know the density off the top of my head though.<BR><BR>Richard Wilson <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:33:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (Please note that US relief efforts in Central America is not done <BR>&gt;out of the goodness of our hearts, but for rather more pragmatic<BR>&gt;concerns.&nbsp; We share a 3000km, undefended land border with several Third<BR>&gt;World nations.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Mexico is only one Third World nation, and Canada is not part of the Third<BR>World, but I believe that the Confederate States may fairly be considered<BR>independent Third World nations.&nbsp; The borders between the rest of the<BR>United States and Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, West<BR>Virginia, and Virginia probably make up more than 3000km.&nbsp; <BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:42:44 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>Richard Wilson writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Methane should work even better.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Four tons (by weight) of methane should give you one ton (by weight) of <BR>&gt; hydrogen. Don't know the density off the top of my head though.<BR><BR>Methane, ammonia, and water all work out pretty similar in volume per unit<BR>hydrogen stored.&nbsp; For various reasons I suspect methane and water would be<BR>the preferred form; if you assume that (a) the jump drive has to work off <BR>of preprocessed fuel, and (b) dumping stuff out of the airlock in J-space <BR>is not generally a good idea, the preference is to carry a supply of <BR>processable fuel, which will be processed into raw hydrogen in J-space, and<BR>the waste materials stored.&nbsp; Of 'waste materials', the easiest to deal with<BR>would probably be CO2.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:48:19 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR><BR>&gt;From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR><BR>Thanks for reposting your essay, Hans.&nbsp; I think that you and I have a very<BR>similar vision of the Imperium.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:52:27 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: What could go wrong?&nbsp; <BR><BR>William wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;A distinctive rattle/squeak in the Air ventilation system. this could<BR>be<BR>&gt;caused by the bearings on a fan to be going out or a fan blade to be<BR>&gt;slightly bent.<BR><BR>Better yet, the noise is heard from the ventilation system, but cannot<BR>be located because it is not coming from any ventilation equipment. It<BR>is being transmitted through a mechanical connection to the ventialtion<BR>system in a inaccessable location and is amplified and echoed by the<BR>ductwork material and configuration.&nbsp; The faulty part sounds very<BR>different in the room it is in.<BR><BR>This should drive the party nuts trying to find the cause.<BR><BR>Charles H<BR><BR>P.S.&nbsp; Repair solution: repair the malfunctioning part of the different<BR>system, add more supports and tiedowns to the ventilation ducts.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:48:35 -0500<BR>From: "Samuel D. Weiss" &lt;samwise1@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR><BR>&gt;This existed one time in the United States Pre 1860. There was the Federal<BR>government and each of the states where responsable for producing units for<BR>the army for the federal/confederate governments. &lt;<BR><BR>This is incorrect. The States where specifically prohibited from having<BR>troops and the Federal government specifically empowered to maintain a<BR>standing army. The States maintained Militia units that were, again using<BR>specifically granted powers, brought into Federal service.<BR>Further, the raising of new troops was specifically left to the States as an<BR>extension of the Militia system as being more feasible than the Federal<BR>government attempting to do so.<BR><BR>&gt;This war was a war that<BR>decided that from that time on there would be a strong federal government.&lt;<BR><BR>Actually most of the issues of Federal vs. State power had already been<BR>decided years before in favor of the Federal government.<BR>The two most significant changes caused by this war were the extension of<BR>the rights in the first 8 Amendments being recognized as applying to the<BR>States as well as the Federal government and the collapse of the originally<BR>conceived militia system due to apathy among the citizens.<BR><BR>&gt;Check out the US units in the War of 1812. At that time the federal<BR>government<BR>didn't have the right to tax or raise troops, and relied on the member<BR>states<BR>providing military units. After the war this changed, and it's one of the<BR>reasons I manitain that the only winner in that war was the US Federal<BR>government.&lt;<BR><BR>As stated above, incorrect. The Federal government had both the power to tax<BR>and raise troops from the adoption of the Constitution. If you want proof,<BR>look at who ran the military academies at West Point and Annapolis. New York<BR>and Maryland or the Dept. of War? And who did the graduating officers take<BR>an oath to serve, their State governments or the Constitution?<BR><BR><BR>Sam<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:49:08 -0500<BR>From: "Samuel D. Weiss" &lt;samwise1@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt;Yeah, that further lessens the analogy, but I didn't want to get into<BR>that....&lt;<BR><BR>LOL<BR><BR><BR>Sam<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:15:14 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR><BR>Hello Hans,<BR>&nbsp; I read your article with interest.&nbsp; I have a few questions to point your<BR>way, and see how you resolve them...<BR><BR>1) each world owes taxes to the Imperium.&nbsp; What would you estimate a fair<BR>taxation system would be for the Imperium?&nbsp; Keep in mind that the Local<BR>governments would want to be able to retain a set amount of the taxes<BR>collected for their own local needs.<BR><BR>2) Given that in a society where money is power, would not the Imperial<BR>Nobles be able to insinuate themselves within the local power structure not<BR>by virtue of their Rank per se, but by virtue of their money?<BR><BR>3) What is the *need* for a Baron, Marquis, or Duke within a Local Power<BR>Structure?&nbsp; More specifically - you meantion that some nobles have more<BR>power than ancient emperors of Earth.&nbsp; As I see the bulk of your article -<BR>it would seem that the only *power* a Noble has is the power that the<BR>Imperial Emperor cedes to him from what was ceded by the world to the<BR>Imperium.&nbsp; Thus?<BR><BR>&nbsp; Planet A agrees that it will not implement laws that violate the Imperial<BR>Statutes on trade, permit no legal slavery, etc... plus pay taxes and<BR>provide men for the draft.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Based on planet A's concessions, what would a Baron of said planet A have<BR>in the way of power?<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 03:15:43 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: System defenses<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;...The most likely reason is that the Imperium is actually a rather weak<BR>&gt;&gt;government, fairly dependent on its member worlds to go along with it. A<BR>&gt;&gt;single pop-A high-tech world can typically withstand a sector fleet<BR>&gt;&gt;indefinately, so this is in fact fairly plausible.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Not bloody likely. Note the Imperium itself is above the Imperial Rules <BR>&gt;of War.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;CF: The Pacification Campaigns, where the Imperium pretty much wiped out <BR>&gt;the ecosystem on the original Iiliesh sector capital after the first <BR>&gt;Iiliesh Rebellion.<BR><BR>It should be noted that Iliesh apparently thought they had a shot at resisting<BR>the Imperium. They were wrong, but that's what they believed. The question is,<BR>of course, how unrealistic that belief was.<BR><BR>As it happens, a sector is just about what I would guesstimate would be the<BR>smallest group of worlds that could have a chance to resist the Imperium. But<BR>thsat's just a SWAG and could be quite wrong.<BR><BR>&gt;If a high-pop world gave the Imperium enough reason to, the Navy would <BR>&gt;(and could!) reduce the world to bedrock and a poisoned atmosphere.<BR><BR>Agreed, but what is "enough reason"? It doesn't have to be beyond the capability<BR>of the Imperium to crush a world, it just has to be more expensive than the<BR>Emperor is willing to pay.<BR><BR>&gt;Or they could starve 'em out and ruin them financially by stopping offworld<BR>&gt;trade, or simply infiltrate a huge number of IISS political covert ops and<BR>&gt;destabilize the existing gummint.<BR><BR>Sure. But what if these actions worries enough OTHER high-population worlds?<BR><BR>&gt;Why doesn't this happen? Because large, High-pop, High-tech worlds have <BR>&gt;far too much invested in the status quo to mess things up like that.<BR><BR>The same could be said for the Imperium.<BR><BR>And Anthony replied:<BR>&gt;&gt;Not bloody likely. Note the Imperium itself is above the Imperial Rules <BR>&gt;&gt;of War.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;Witness Invasion Earth.&nbsp; In the Spinward Marches, Mora and Trin each account<BR>&gt;for around 10% of the total GSP, and since they put about as much into their<BR>&gt;system defenses as they put into the IN, they've got about 10% of the total<BR>&gt;forces.&nbsp; Except, it's spent on system defenses rather than on jump-capable<BR>&gt;ships, so it's more like 1/5.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Actually, they put more than twice as much into their system defenses. Worlds<BR>retain 70% for their own forces and pay 30% to the Imperium. And half of what<BR>goes to the Imperium is used on subsector forces which are raised and maintained<BR>at the subsector level, which means that a lot of the crews will come from the<BR>local capital...<BR><BR>&gt;I was exaggerating, but only a little bit.&nbsp; Subduing an unruly major world <BR>&gt;would take massive mobilization over a large area, and might well tempt<BR>&gt;indiscretions by your neighbors.<BR><BR>I think you exaggerate by more than a bit, but I also think that you are right<BR>in your conclusion that Imperial nobles won't like to provoke high-population<BR>worlds.<BR><BR>&gt;The fact that Traveller has all of these 'system defense fleets', that are<BR>&gt;apparently locally controlled, is one of the strongest arguments against the<BR>&gt;existence of a strong central imperium.&nbsp; Imagine what the US would be if all<BR>&gt;fifty states had their own armed forces, and you have the Imperium.<BR><BR>I see it as a balance between high-pop systems, subsector dukes, and the<BR>Emperor.<BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:36:04 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: More KB3 Questions<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>1.&nbsp;&nbsp; Failed Task Throws<BR><BR>Ages ago, Eris asked Kenneth:<BR>&gt;Piter's friend, Rnold is a very strong fellow, he has an Str of<BR>&gt;14, and he grabs that hatch wheel and gives it a mighty yank. I<BR>&gt;take it he still rolls the default 1d6 on his Lifting task?&nbsp; How<BR>&gt;is Rnold's 14 helping him here?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;He may not fail as badly as Piter, but he is still going to fail<BR>&gt;as *often* isn't he?<BR><BR>Kenneth, you never really answered this question - or maybe I'm just<BR>confused.<BR><BR>If Rnold rolls a Task Throw of 5 on 1D and you roll a Diff Throw of 18 on<BR>3D, he has still _failed_, hasn't he?<BR><BR>You see, Eris also wrote:<BR>&gt;And Rnold would have subtracted his 14 from the 18, giving him 4, and a<BR>success...barely, &gt;but you *did* say this was a "damn hard" task.<BR><BR>As far as I can tell, Rnold FAILED his roll. Therefore you subtract 14 from<BR>18 and get 4, which you compare to the Task Roll of 5. Since the Task Throw<BR>_beat_ the Diff Throw minus Stat, it is only a Regular Failure.<BR><BR>Am I interpreting this correctly???<BR><BR><BR><BR>2.&nbsp;&nbsp; "Exactly Equal" Cases<BR><BR>Also, your rules missed the "exactly equals" cases:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - when the Task Throw and Difficulty Throw are _equal_, which one<BR>prevails?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - when a successful Task Throw is _equal_ to Diff Throw + Stat, is it<BR>standard or marginal success?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - when a failed Task Throw is _equal_ to Diff Throw - Stat, is it a<BR>regular or greater failure?<BR><BR><BR><BR>3.&nbsp;&nbsp; Does Greater Success Work?<BR><BR>I'm really having difficulties with the Greater Success stuff. To me, it<BR>seems counter-intuitive at first glance. If you absolutely blitz the Task<BR>Throw (roll really high), you are more likely to achieve Marginal Success<BR>than Greater Success. Also, the higher the Diff Throw, the more chance you<BR>could roll under Diff Throw + Stat and thus the more chance of Greater<BR>Success. Why? (what are your thoughts?)<BR><BR><BR><BR>4.&nbsp;&nbsp; How Do Task Throw Bonuses Work?<BR><BR>Now, I know you haven't shown us all the combat mods yet, but... say you<BR>had a long-range weapon (+5 to Aimed Fire) with an advanced sight (+4) and<BR>you are aiming at a stationary target (+2), you get +11 to hit. This will<BR>almost certainly convert any success into only a Marginal Success (assuming<BR>I was correct in my earlier interpretation). In other words, the better<BR>your equipment, the worse the result! One idea I had to fix this is to only<BR>compare the _base roll_ (no mods) with the (Diff Throw + Stat).<BR><BR>Comments?<BR><BR><BR><BR>(Kenneth, could you send your replies to me as well as the list, since I'm<BR>getting snowed under by work emails, let alone my 50-or-so unread TML<BR>digests!!!)<BR><BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material &amp; opinions contained within are solely those<BR>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:38:14 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "(Please note that US relief efforts in Central America is not done<BR>out of the goodness of our hearts, but for rather more pragmatic concerns.&nbsp; <BR>We share a 3000km, undefended land border with several Third<BR>World nations."<BR><BR>Mexico is only one Third World nation, and Canada is not part of the Third <BR>World, but I believe that the Confederate States may fairly be considered <BR>independent Third World nations.&nbsp; The borders between the rest of the United <BR>States and Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, West Virginia, <BR>and Virginia probably make up more than 3000km.<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Goffin,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Ouch!&nbsp; And I think you might stir up some of the Southrons here on the <BR>TML.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Once again, the error is mine.&nbsp; In a hurry, I mistakenly typed the <BR>wrong figure. 3000km.&nbsp; Think of it as a slip of the fingers, rather than the <BR>tongue.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; However seeing as Mexico has no effective border controls, along with <BR>none of the so-called nations to the south of her, I could argue that all of <BR>their "borders" can be added together to reach my "3000km" figure.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As for Canada, I have previously stated my belief that her current <BR>culture is superior to that of the US.&nbsp; Perhaps they should start looking <BR>warily at their southern border.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:54:49 -0500<BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness<BR><BR>At 10:03 PM 2/20/01 +1300, Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>&gt;James wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;Though in my experience, the only reliable sub killers are submarines<BR>&gt; &gt;themselves....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Actually, the best sub-killer is a P3 Orion.<BR>&gt;&lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOH!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>Heeheeheeheehehehehehehehhehhmuyrkhuyfougy........^#@$%(&amp;%^$%!!!<BR>(gasp....gasp...draw breath....) OH. MY. GOD.<BR>gigglegigglechortlechucklessniggersnigggerGESNORT!!<BR><BR>Sorry. I couldn't help myself there.&nbsp; Every time someone mentions P3s, <BR>I&nbsp; think of one P3 crew we worked with whilst on my first boat.&nbsp; To begin <BR>with, we were at PD with both scopes, one of my radio antennas, and I think <BR>the snorkel all sticking up out of the water.&nbsp; One of the O-gangers was in <BR>Control, with a radio handset in his hand, watching the P3 through the <BR>scope, and saying, "OK, you' bear 340 from us, fly 160....you're getting <BR>closer....3, 2, 1, mark! you're right overhead....OK, you're at 140, fly <BR>320....getting closer....almost there....mark! on top," &amp;c, &amp;c.&nbsp; Even with <BR>all that stuff sticking up out of the water, and us vectoring him in and <BR>marking on top, it took six tries before he finally spotted us.<BR><BR><BR>James<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 04:07:01 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde<BR><BR>There was an article in an early issue of _challenge_ -- #26 IIRC -- with En<BR>Gardesque rules for playing cadets in a military academy. There were two<BR>different "social levels", peer standing (popularity) and class standing<BR>(academic achievement). Various activities gave points to either but very few<BR>to both. Getting caught duelling, for instance, gave oodles of demerits but<BR>refusing a challenge caused massive loss of face. I ran it for my players for<BR>a couple of sessions and it was great fun.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:46:02 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: System defenses<BR><BR>Just to add a little fun to this thread...<BR><BR>It would be highly inadvisable for *any* force, be it Imperial or Rebel, to<BR>ignore the *convention* of refraining from the use of unrestricted warfare<BR>in war.&nbsp; What would it take to render a world uninhabitable once your own<BR>world has been rendered uninhabitable?&nbsp; Somehow, I suspect once a world<BR>dies - that the populations on *all* worlds will get greatly worried.&nbsp; When<BR>a single world deep inside the Imperium suffers the same fate as a rebel<BR>world, people will become greatly concerned as to defensive abilities...<BR><BR>What surprises me is that I have yet to see a single publication put out<BR>for Traveller based on the Ine Givar.<BR><BR>GM: You are a local Cell within the Imperium, dedicated to the overthrow of<BR>the Imperial structure.&nbsp; What are your plans?<BR><BR>&nbsp; It would be interesting to see just how effective the Ine Givar could be,<BR>especially if they started getting their hands on weapons of mass<BR>destruction - bioweapons as it were?&nbsp; Imagine, what would happen if the Ine<BR>Givar were to target, not the people themselves, but the plants of a single<BR>world?&nbsp; They create a carrier such as perhaps a honey bee.&nbsp; It pollenates<BR>plants left and right, and then - a year later, the plant disease starts<BR>striking.<BR><BR>On second thought, perhaps it would be wise not to go into such details...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:42:33 -0600<BR>From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" &lt;yikes@evansville.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Virus (not a flamewar starter, was Re: Democracy Now!)<BR><BR>&gt; My most humble and abject apologies, Mr. Wiseman.<BR>&gt; My personal feelings towards Virus do not extend<BR>&gt; to it's mileau or the materials set there.<BR><BR>I've actually started to come to like Virus now that I regard it as a weird<BR>supernatural psionic spirit-demon that possesses machinery. Makes for a kewl<BR>monster in a Dark Conspiracy/Delta Green/Call of Cthulu/Fading Suns version<BR>of the Traveller setting.<BR><BR>Ciao,<BR><BR>Joseph R. Dietrich, yikes@evansville.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:54:30 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: more sword stuff<BR><BR>Since this thread is up and running, here is some of my previous statements <BR>on the subject<BR><BR>http://spacevermin.homepage.com/TRAV/TravSwords.html<BR><BR>I know it was mentioned before, but it's worth repeating, Sir Richard <BR>Burton's book, "The Book of the Sword", first published in 1884 is a good <BR>reference.<BR><BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was<BR>burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.<BR>That's our story and we're sticking to it.&nbsp; http://www.bigfoott.com/~urbin/<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:00:48 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>Richard Wilson wrote:<BR>&gt; Four tons (by weight) of methane should give you one ton (by weight)<BR>&gt; of hydrogen. Don't know the density off the top of my head though.<BR><BR>Liquid CH4 is 440 kg/m^3 at 100K and 101 kPa (1 atm).&nbsp; Liquid hydrogen<BR>is 70.8 kg/m^3 at 20 K and 101 kPa (1 atm).<BR><BR>Both have a rather small temperature range range between liquid and<BR>solid states.<BR><BR>Better than either is ammonia, at about 18% H2 by weight, with a<BR>density of 685 kg/m^3 at 220 K.&nbsp; Its boiling point is much higher than<BR>either CH4 or H2, so it is a lot easier to keep liquid.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:10:47 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Ammonia<BR><BR>&gt;Better than either is ammonia, at about 18% H2 by weight, with a<BR>&gt;density of 685 kg/m^3 at 220 K.&nbsp; Its boiling point is much higher than<BR>&gt;either CH4 or H2, so it is a lot easier to keep liquid.<BR><BR>Hmmm...<BR><BR>&nbsp; I can see it now - refinery mishap, and the ship is flooded with Ammonia.<BR>But you have to admit, it would be a rather unique way of removing pests.<BR>Flood the ship with Ammonia &lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:24:04 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Methane, ammonia, and water all work out pretty similar in volume per unit<BR>&gt; hydrogen stored.&nbsp; For various reasons I suspect methane and water would be<BR>&gt; the preferred form; if you assume that (a) the jump drive has to work off <BR>&gt; of preprocessed fuel, and (b) dumping stuff out of the airlock in J-space <BR>&gt; is not generally a good idea, the preference is to carry a supply of <BR>&gt; processable fuel, which will be processed into raw hydrogen in J-space, and<BR>&gt; the waste materials stored.<BR><BR>&gt;Of 'waste materials', the easiest to deal with would probably be CO2.<BR><BR>If you have the facilities to deal with LH2, liquefying an N2/O2 mix<BR>should be child's play.&nbsp; The big advantage is that you can just feed<BR>some of it into the ship's air supply instead of cracking CO2 :)<BR><BR>A suitable unrefined fuel producing an N2/O2 mix would be a solution<BR>of ammonia in water (ammonium hydroxide).<BR><BR>Ammonium hydroxide solution is actually denser in hydrogen than NH3<BR>and H2O separately, easy to obtain from natural sources, and isn't<BR>hard to store.&nbsp; The "waste" from 1 ton of such a solution would<BR>provide at least a person-week of breathing air as a waste-product.<BR><BR>So any jump-capable ship can do without CO2 recycling for months, it<BR>just needs to be able to remove CO2 from the air -- a much easier<BR>task.&nbsp; With a little distillation you can do without water recycling<BR>too, by removing the ammonia from some of the unrefined fuel.&nbsp; All you<BR>need is food.<BR><BR><BR>- - Tim<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:35:45 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: fencing<BR><BR>On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:32:31 -0800, "Tod Glenn"<BR>&lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Mr. Johnson,<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I've read that he hadn't planned on releasing it as two movies but,<BR>&gt;&gt; after looking at all the footage, realized he'd either have to throw away<BR>&gt;&gt; priceless stuff or make two films.<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This, of course, coud just be another Hollywood legend.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;My understanding is that two movies were planned, but were filmed as one to<BR>&gt;avoid paying the cast for both films.&nbsp; fortunately for the actors, after<BR>&gt;filming, some additional scenes were required and they were able to<BR>&gt;negotiate pay for both films.<BR><BR>Tod's version is that which I also recall.&nbsp; In fact, most of the<BR>participants refused to every work with Lester ever again.&nbsp; There was<BR>also some talk of a lawsuit.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:35:37 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:40:59 +1300, "Rupert Boleyn"<BR>&lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;On 20 Feb 2001, at 23:44, JR Holmes wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;This was intended to encourage and support dairy farmers<BR>&gt;&gt; outside the state of Wisconsin on the theory that milk, being a<BR>&gt;&gt; perishable product, was better produced close to the consumers.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;They're right about this, if nothing else. Some brands of milk here in NZ are <BR>&gt;transported about 300 miles to get to where I am, and their quality is <BR>&gt;noticablely lower than that of more locally produced milk. Aside from being <BR>&gt;about a day older, the vibration during transit isn't that good for milk.<BR><BR>I will not deny that either.&nbsp; However, when the price support program<BR>was originally created, the problems of transporting milk safely were<BR>considerably greater than they are today.&nbsp; With the improvements in<BR>transport since the creation of those supports, the scale they embody<BR>is no longer commensurate with the risks of transport.<BR><BR>Thus the attempts to remove the price supports.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:35:45 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 06:51:54 -0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"<BR>&lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Sadly, as a resident of Wisconsin, USA, and as one, who on more than <BR>&gt;one occasion voted for Mr. Proxmire (don't ask what kind of<BR>&gt;dunderheads were often running against him when I reached voting age),<BR>&gt;I must inform you that, though the idea of dairy price supports would<BR>&gt;appear to benefit the dairy farmers of Wisconsin, that was not the<BR>&gt;case."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mr. Holmes,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; After reading your post, sir, I stand corrected.&nbsp; As is usual with my <BR>&gt;posts, I attempted the stretch a bare amount of information, or an incorrect <BR>&gt;assessment of such infomation, to make a point.&nbsp; It seems that final <BR>&gt;paragraphs of my efforts always seem to get me into so much trouble.&nbsp; <BR>&gt;Hopefully, I will learn when to stop typing and thus raise the value of my <BR>&gt;posts by decreasing their actual size.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; My incomplete knowledge of federal milk price supports, and my slur of <BR>&gt;Sen. Proxmire's support of them, came from a landlord of mine.&nbsp; I rented a&nbsp; <BR>&gt;farm house from this gentleman.&nbsp; He would visit occasionally and bemoan the <BR>&gt;fact that he and his brother had found it impossible to continue in the <BR>&gt;family dairy business.&nbsp;&nbsp; I should of discounted his opinions seeing that he <BR>&gt;only visited to collect his check, "borrow" a few beers, and hide from his <BR>&gt;wife.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>Larsen (I use the convention of addressing people per their<BR>signature):<BR><BR>Your ideas of the nature of dairy price supports (based upon an<BR>incomplete or misapprehended idea of their nature) are very common,<BR>even among people more directly affected by them.&nbsp; Further, stretching<BR>minimal information is part and parcel of the TML experience, and not<BR>a point of appology.<BR><BR>I have no doubt that price supports were a part of the reason that<BR>your one-time landlord found it uneconomical to continue his dairy<BR>business.&nbsp; How they worked against his business, I can't guess without<BR>more particulars.<BR><BR>Please feel free to refer to me in whatever more familiar manner you<BR>may wish.&nbsp; Most people will use "JR".<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3725<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, February 22 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3726<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR>Re: Ammonia<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR>RE: Don't run...<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR>RE: Spectres in the machine...<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>RE: Civility and Politeness<BR>Re: Civility and Politeness<BR>Re: Imperial Development Policy (or lack thereof)<BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Looking for a home<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Unsubscribing now<BR>OT: Ahem...Third World Nations?<BR>Re: Looking for a home<BR>Re: more sword stuff<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:35:45 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR><BR>On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:59:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard<BR>Erickson) wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;No, the tranistion from "normal temp" to "complete iceage" was a<BR>&gt;century or so. And the transition from "complete ice age" to "super<BR>&gt;tropical" and then back to normal was also only a few 100 years. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;But the "complete ice age" and "normal" stages lasted tens of thousands<BR>&gt;of years. <BR><BR>I'll defer to your more accurate recollection.&nbsp; It was the transitions<BR>which were surprisingly rapid, not the overall oscillation itself.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:44:14 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Ammonia<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR>&gt; I can see it now - refinery mishap, and the ship is flooded with<BR>&gt; Ammonia.<BR><BR>Worse than being flooded with liquid H2?&nbsp; (Refer to "standard penis<BR>size measurement in Traveller" thread)<BR><BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; But you have to admit, it would be a rather unique way of removing<BR>&gt; pests.&nbsp; Flood the ship with Ammonia &lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>That it would :)<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:52:06 +0000<BR>From: "Doug C." &lt;dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>Maybe I'm missing something... (I frequently do...)<BR><BR>Fuel is LHyd...<BR>Water is H2O...<BR>Ignoring atomic wieghts/volumes (of which i know less than nothing)<BR>If water is 2 Hyd atoms and 1 Oxy atom<BR>Then 1 dTon of water has to conain less Hyd than 1 dTon of LHyd, right?<BR>So where is the efficiency, or practicality of storing fuel in unrefined<BR>form?<BR>Someone please explain (in easy to understand words and phrases :-) what<BR>I'm missing<BR>Thanks,<BR>Doug<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:14:04 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR><BR>Glenn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Thanks for reposting your essay, Hans.&nbsp; I think that you and I have a<BR>very<BR>&gt;similar vision of the Imperium.<BR><BR>Same here Hans, give me a day or two to reread it and see if I can come<BR>up with a better comment.<BR><BR>Charles<BR><BR>hmm, only one comment on my Nobles post and that was direct.&nbsp; Is this<BR>good or bad???<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:27:13 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Don't run...<BR><BR>Tod Glenn wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; Frequently an army sniper, equiped with a M21 with <BR>&gt; STANO sight and sionics supressor was dropped, with his <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ^^^^^^&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&gt; team, into a target rich environment just as night fell.<BR><BR>An interesting misprint in the context of the TML...<BR><BR>&gt; BTW, I have a great photo of the inside of an AC-130 during firing.&nbsp; The<BR>&gt; crew chief is shoveling empty brass with a coal shovel.<BR><BR>Cool!<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:22:46 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>Hal writes:<BR><BR>&gt;1) each world owes taxes to the Imperium.&nbsp; What would you estimate a fair<BR>&gt;taxation system would be for the Imperium?&nbsp; Keep in mind that the Local<BR>&gt;governments would want to be able to retain a set amount of the taxes<BR>&gt;collected for their own local needs.<BR><BR>_Striker_ says that each world sets its own military budget and that the<BR>Imperium gets 30% of whatever that is. These budgets ranges from 1% of GWP to<BR>15% of GWP with the worlds of the Imperium averaging 3%. Since a strict<BR>interpretation of this would mean that a world with a low budget (which would<BR>burden the imperium by not being as well able to defend itself) would get away<BR>with contributing less to the Imperium, I favor changing that to a flat 1% of<BR>GWP paid to the Imperium. YMMV.<BR><BR>In any case, the world's GWP would be calculated according to some formula<BR>agreed upon between the world and the Imperium, and the Imperium would get a<BR>check for that amount. As the only way of transferring wealth from one system to<BR>another is to transport goods from one to the other, the Imperium would mostly<BR>get its cut in goods and services. Starships, supplies, annual maintenances,<BR>etc.<BR><BR>&gt;2) Given that in a society where money is power, would not the Imperial<BR>&gt;Nobles be able to insinuate themselves within the local power structure not<BR>&gt;by virtue of their Rank per se, but by virtue of their money?<BR><BR>Certainly, and some undoubtedly do just that. Marquis Leonard of Aramis has the<BR>entire world of Lewis as his personal fief, but I don't think he got it from the<BR>Emperor. After all, only archdukes are supposed to get an entire world as a<BR>fief. Propably one of Leonard's ancestors grabbed the world for himself back in<BR>earlier times and the Emperor merely ratified that at a later date.<BR><BR>&gt;3) What is the *need* for a Baron, Marquis, or Duke within a Local Power<BR>&gt;Structure?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Imperial high officials has to be peers. Just how high 'high officials' is is<BR>not defined anywhere, but if you need as little as half a dozen for each<BR>subsector government and a bunch for higher levels plus a number of 'spares' for<BR>slack, you quickly end up needing quite a few.<BR><BR>&gt;More specifically - you meantion that some nobles have more power than ancient<BR>&gt;emperors of Earth.&nbsp; As I see the bulk of your article - it would seem that the<BR>&gt;only *power* a Noble has is the power that the Imperial Emperor cedes to him<BR>&gt;from what was ceded by the world to the Imperium.&nbsp; Thus?<BR><BR>Well, even those Imperial nobles who 'only' controls the Imperial taxes of a<BR>high-population world controls more wealth than any Old Earth emperor ever did.<BR>Those Imperial nobles that are also planetary rulers are even more powerful, and<BR>so are the subsector dukes. <BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; Planet A agrees that it will not implement laws that violate the Imperial<BR>&gt;Statutes on trade, permit no legal slavery, etc... plus pay taxes and<BR>&gt;provide men for the draft.&nbsp; <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Based on planet A's concessions, what would a Baron of said planet A have<BR>&gt;in the way of power?<BR><BR>A baron would propably not have all that much direct power, although he would be<BR>very rich by our standards. But his biggest power would lie in his connection to<BR>other Imperial nobles. I don't know the English term for the phenomenon, but<BR>it's something to do with association. Here on Earth we used to have a lot of<BR>sovereign kings. The king of, say, Denmark wasn't nearly as powerful as the<BR>kings of France and Spain and England, but because the kings of France, Spain,<BR>and England considered kingship to be something special, the less powerful kings<BR>'rode on their coattails', so to speak, and was accorded equal respect. Kings<BR>got 21 cannon salutes, for example, no matter how small their kingdoms. Also,<BR>some Imperial barons would be the 'opposite number' of planetary rulers. Only<BR>rulers of medium-population worlds, granted, but planetary rulers nontheless.<BR>The association effect again.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:32:53 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>Doug C. wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Maybe I'm missing something... (I frequently do...)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Fuel is LHyd...<BR>&gt; Water is H2O...<BR>&gt; Ignoring atomic wieghts/volumes (of which i know less than nothing)<BR><BR>That's the thing -- water molecules pack closer together than hydrogen<BR>molecules.&nbsp; Atoms aren't hard balls that take up a fixed amount of<BR>space, and molecules aren't really solid shapes either.<BR><BR>Maybe it would help to think of molecules in liquids as being a bit<BR>like flocks of birds or swarms of insects.&nbsp; They have a (roughly)<BR>fixed density, but it's not because they are actually packed tightly<BR>against each other, it's that they sort of have a "preferred"<BR>distance.<BR><BR>Water molecules have a smaller "preferred" distance than hydrogen<BR>ones, for various reasons.<BR><BR>It's not a great analogy, but it's what I could come up with on short<BR>notice.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:43:37 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR><BR>Thanks for the repost.&nbsp; This time, I burn it on a CD.&nbsp; :-)<BR><BR>Couple of questions:<BR><BR>Have you thought about looking at regional world populations<BR>when thinking about the relative influence of different noble<BR>ranks?&nbsp; For example, worlds of populations (which fuels the<BR>trade equation) X or below might only deserve a Barony.<BR>Pops Y get a Marquis, Pop Z or greater get Count (where<BR>X&lt;Y&lt;Z).<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; With that sort of mechanism, a huge world might have a<BR>Count, a Marquis or two, and a handful of Barons, where<BR>a low pop world may have only a Baron or Banneret.<BR>That would also have the variety you mention, where Baron<BR>Little World and Count Big World each have only one vote<BR>in the Moot (if it's one world, one vote).<BR><BR>Regarding the Typical value for fiefs. Is that 'annual' value?<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:50:16 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Spectres in the machine...<BR><BR>Jeff Rowse wrote :<BR><BR><BR>&gt; I believe the 'Twilight 2000' supplement "Aviation &amp; Nautical<BR>&gt; Handbook"(? I&nbsp; think that's what it's called) had stats for<BR>&gt; the Spectre gunships.&nbsp; I can&nbsp; try to dig it out if anyone's interested...<BR><BR>It does, and I have it sitting on my bookshelf not teen fet away, so I can<BR>get it too if anyone wants them.<BR><BR>&gt; Also, &lt;***FLAME WAR ALERT***?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Democracy, bah!&nbsp; I spit on your Democracy.&nbsp; Technical Fuedocracy all the<BR>&gt; way!<BR><BR>Personally I prefer neo-fascist socio-democratic monarchies.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 05:47:20 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>I worked with the team developing the AC-130. An interesting variation was <BR>putting the 50-caliber machine guns on the O-2s (light observation planes).<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Heck, even the old Spooky is fun for PCs<BR><BR>&gt;I've always pictured the design team meeting for the AC-47..<BR><BR>&gt;"OK, and back here is the where the 105 goes."<BR><BR>&gt;"The what?"<BR><BR>&gt;"The 105mm howitzer.&nbsp; Useful thing in this sort of role."<BR><BR>&gt;"You want to mount *side firing field artillery* in an aircraft?!"<BR><BR>&gt;"Just a little one..."<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:15:18 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness<BR><BR>James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; At 10:03 PM 2/20/01 +1300, Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;Actually, the best sub-killer is a P3 Orion.<BR>&gt; &gt;&lt;grin&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOH!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>&gt; Heeheeheeheehehehehehehehhehhmuyrkhuyfougy........^#@$%(&amp;%^$%!!!<BR>&gt; (gasp....gasp...draw breath....) OH. MY. GOD.<BR>&gt; gigglegigglechortlechucklessniggersnigggerGESNORT!!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Sorry. I couldn't help myself there.&nbsp; Every time someone mentions P3s,<BR>&gt; I&nbsp; think of one P3 crew we worked with whilst on my first boat.&nbsp; To begin<BR>&gt; with, we were at PD with both scopes, one of my radio antennas,<BR>&gt; and I think<BR>&gt; the snorkel all sticking up out of the water.&nbsp; One of the<BR>&gt; O-gangers was in<BR>&gt; Control, with a radio handset in his hand, watching the P3 through the<BR>&gt; scope, and saying, "OK, you' bear 340 from us, fly 160....you're getting<BR>&gt; closer....3, 2, 1, mark! you're right overhead....OK, you're at 140, fly<BR>&gt; 320....getting closer....almost there....mark! on top," &amp;c, &amp;c.<BR>&gt; Even with<BR>&gt; all that stuff sticking up out of the water, and us vectoring him in and<BR>&gt; marking on top, it took six tries before he finally spotted us.<BR><BR>US Coast Guard was he ?<BR><BR>RNZAF P3's regularly outperformed other airforces with supposedly better<BR>equipment (such as Nimrods) during the annual sub-hunt competition, largely<BR>because they actually used their eyes rather than relying on the MAD and<BR>other gear.<BR><BR>But they don't really need to see you, just need to know the general<BR>location, then drop a couple of nuclear depth charges...<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:31:09 +1100<BR>From: "Jeffrey Malone" &lt;nparker1971@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Frank G. Pitt &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 5:15 PM<BR>Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; RNZAF P3's regularly outperformed other airforces with supposedly better<BR>&gt; equipment (such as Nimrods) during the annual sub-hunt competition,<BR>largely<BR>&gt; because they actually used their eyes rather than relying on the MAD and<BR>&gt; other gear.<BR><BR>I presume you are referring to the Fincastle Trophy...RNZAF performance has<BR>been good but scarcely spectacular...and they had better be good with their<BR>eyes, 'cos the equipment fit on their P3s is shockingly out of date...<BR><BR>OBTrav - comparing the US (and Australian) pressure that has been bought to<BR>bear on NZ to upgrade its defence expenditure and capabilites, what would be<BR>the 3I's approach to defence expenditure in **client states** on its borders<BR>(e.g., in Foreven)?<BR><BR>**this is not meant to infer that NZ is, or was, a client state of the US**<BR><BR>J.M.M.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:26:22 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial Development Policy (or lack thereof)<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR>&gt;&gt; The point I am trying to make is that the 3I has a network of non-State institutions that are good at <BR>&gt;&gt; dealing with short-term problems. It's the long-term systemic problems of underdevelopment it cant <BR>fix.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I guess that's what I was trying [feebly] to get at, as this started <BR>&gt;from discussions of economic policy and it's effects on society (corn <BR>&gt;laws in Britain, U.S. dairy trade regulations).&nbsp; <BR>&gt;I mentioned the lower level 'rescue' efforts as a side thought that <BR>&gt;evidently clouded my main point.&nbsp; Sorry.&nbsp; (Though the rescue stuff was <BR>&gt;interesting in itself.)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;But the systemic problems of imbalance of wealth/technology/etc. is <BR>&gt;what I was wondering about - how could the 3I *not* get involved in <BR>&gt;helping underdeveloped regions improve their tech/trade levels?<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>The Imperium is built on the cultural soveriegnty of worlds - in my book, the acceptance of this <BR>principle was what enabled the Sylean Federation to morph into the Third Imperium (when the Vilani <BR>agreed to the 'strategic partnership').<BR><BR>For the Imperium to re-engineer member worlds' culture and society by helping cure underdevelopment <BR>would be in violation of this.<BR><BR>Plus, development costs a lot, and usually fails in the face of the deep-seated reasons for <BR>underdevelopment (note how many of the world's great companies are not Brazillian, or Mexican, or <BR>Russian).<BR><BR>Dulinor thought the Imperium could and should do this, so it is a thread in Imperial thought in the <BR>1100s.<BR><BR>But it isnt the major thread.<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:32:29 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 16:05, Rob Davenport wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Would a better example than the U.S. be the British Empire at it's <BR>&gt; height in the age of sail (uh, *think* *think* *think*, mid- late-<BR>&gt; 1850s?).&nbsp; How long did it take to sail from Portsmouth to Botany Bay, <BR>&gt; for example?&nbsp; (he said, having just finished reading P.O'Brian's <BR>&gt; "Desolation Island".)&nbsp; Certainly less than the year or two I believe is <BR>&gt; quoted for Regina to Capital, but substantial nonetheless.<BR><BR>A better example might be Imperial Spain. Messages could take over a <BR>year (up to two in some cases) to travel from Spain to the American <BR>colonies.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Rob D.<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Rob<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Sic faciunt omnes.&nbsp; --&nbsp; Everyone is doing it.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:32:29 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 2:29, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Here's an essay I wrote about it some years ago. Apologies to those of you who<BR>&gt; has already seen it (Actually, I've rewritten it, so there may be something<BR>&gt; new for you too)..<BR><BR>The sucking sound of the TML black hole of quality.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:32:29 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 13:19, Stephen Tempest wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; The French must also have had at least some idea of the concept,<BR>&gt; otherwise it would be expressed as "nobility obliges" rather than<BR>&gt; "noblesse oblige"...<BR><BR>It being in French was just an affectation of the English upper classes.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:32:29 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 12:06, Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Which was quite funny given that they first used flamethrowers (and poison<BR>&gt; gas, though the aliies were actually the first to manufacture it).<BR><BR>Ahh, but the conventions only covered "poison projectiles", so the first gas <BR>attack involved lining up a whole load of chlorine cylinders, waiting for a <BR>favourable wind and openning the taps. And this is why the Imperial Rules <BR>of War are not written down.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:13:08 -0800<BR>From: "Pronto" &lt;pronto_r031@telus.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As for Canada, I have previously stated my belief that her current<BR>&gt; culture is superior to that of the US.&nbsp; Perhaps they should start looking<BR>&gt; warily at their southern border.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Larsen<BR>&gt;<BR>We do.<BR><BR>Pronto<BR>AKA Brian Taylor<BR>Next year, at Burning Man!<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 05:32:08 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Looking for a home<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR>&nbsp; I've just started working on a map of the SPINWARD MARCHES using Campaign<BR>Cartographer.&nbsp; What I've done is to place the stars in their correct hex<BR>and all.&nbsp; Big deal right? &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; What I'm also doing is coloring in the<BR>star to represent the star type.&nbsp; Green for F class stars, Red for M class<BR>stars, Yellow for G class, Orange for K class.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Question: what colors would people suggest I use for A class - Light Blue?<BR><BR>Question: should I distinguish between Giant Class stars and main sequence<BR>stars by making the circle larger for giant class?<BR><BR>Question: should I include symbols for binary and Trinary star systems?<BR><BR>Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?&nbsp; <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 05:32:27 -0500<BR>From: Christopher Thrash &lt;thrash@io.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:29:08 +0100<BR>&gt;From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR><BR>&gt;IMO whoever wrote the essay about nobles in _Library Data, (N-Z)_ made a<BR>&gt;mistake when he made the noble titles given out by the CGS into Imperial<BR>&gt;titles. In the original rules they were local (planetary) titles (There were<BR>&gt;two more levels abobe, prince and king, and these were used by actual rulers<BR>&gt;of worlds [Book 3, p. 22]). <BR><BR>It's not like you to quote out of context to make a point, Hans. The full<BR>citation reads:<BR><BR>"Ranking above duke/duchess are two levels not reflected in social<BR>standing: prince/princess or king/queen are titles used by actual rulers of<BR>worlds. The title of emperor/empress is used by the ruler of an empire of<BR>several worlds."<BR><BR>Book 3, p. 22 (1977)<BR><BR>In other words:<BR><BR>Social&nbsp; &nbsp; Title<BR>(G)&nbsp; &nbsp; Prince/Princess or King/Queen<BR>(H)&nbsp; &nbsp; Emperor/Empress&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR><BR>It is clear from context that this system was intended for what we would<BR>now consider minor pocket empires, not the Third Imperium of the Official<BR>Traveller Universe (which didn't exist at this point).<BR><BR>The revisions of 1981-2, including the article in Supp. 11, explicitly<BR>change this picture:<BR><BR>"At the discretion of the referee, a noble may have some ancestral lands or<BR>fiefs, and may actually have some ruling power." <BR><BR>Book 1, p. 9 (1981)<BR><BR>"The nobility includes within it a subset called the peerage, consisting of<BR>all nobles except knights and banorets. Except in extraordinary situations,<BR>to hold a high office in the Imperial bureaucracy, a person must be a peer<BR>(though not all peers hold office)."<BR><BR>Supp. 11, p. 34 (1982)<BR><BR>"All nobility is part of the feudal system of the Imperial government."<BR><BR>Ibid.<BR><BR>It seems to me that the existance of ranks for achievement (which<BR>"customarily carry no special reward beyond the noble title itself," ibid,<BR>p. 35), service (including "political support in office, victory in the<BR>military, contributions or economic assistance from the commercial sector,"<BR>ibid.) and position ("occupying specific government offices," ibid.)<BR>significantly dilute the power and prestige associated with hereditary or<BR>governing noble titles, perhaps enough to justify the canonical treatment<BR>of nobles. The kicker, and the clue that you are dealing with no ordinary<BR>noble, is the suffix or fief used in the style of address.<BR><BR>&gt;In addition to these rank nobles there are a an undefined number of honor<BR>&gt;barons and honor marquesses (but NOT counts and dukes).&nbsp; [_Imperial<BR>&gt;Encyclopedia_, p. 13].<BR><BR>Note that this is a later accretion: this distinction does not exist in<BR>Supp. 11. In fact, the differences between the Supp. 11 and Imperial<BR>Encyclopedia versions of nobility are quite interesting.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 05:40:27 -0500<BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Unsubscribing now<BR><BR>Okay, guys - see you all sometime around the end of the year....<BR><BR><BR>James<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:04:56 -0500<BR>From: "Greenly, Jeff" &lt;greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: OT: Ahem...Third World Nations?<BR><BR>Excuuuse me, suh!<BR><BR>Ah must take umbrage at your comments concerning the Confederacy, suh! You<BR>Yaunkees think ya'll are so entitled since you ahchieved that momentary and<BR>fleeting victory ofah my dear beloved Dixie in the recent unpleasantness.<BR>Ya'll are nuthin more than brigands an' carpetbaggahs, who simply can't<BR>appreciate the culture that ya'll have tried to ovahrun with your Yahnkee<BR>fishmongah's ways durin' the War of Northern Aggression. Well, suh, I think<BR>it'll have to be pistols and mint juleps at dawn, suh, or I shall think you<BR>a yellow Yahnkee dog, suh!<BR><BR>Sorry, born in Texas, currently living in West Virginia highlands. It's in<BR>the soil or something...<BR><BR>ObTrav: Heck, I don't know... Rednecks in space? &lt;reminds me of that skit<BR>the Muppet show used to do all the time..."Pigs in Space." Same<BR>difference...I live in a state where wearing orange camo and muck boots to a<BR>formal occasion ISN'T a fashion mistake..&gt;<BR><BR>Glenn, you just may have a point there...<BR><BR>Jeff<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt;Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:33:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>&gt;From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Mexico is only one Third World nation, and Canada is not part of the Third<BR>&gt;World, but I believe that the Confederate States may fairly be considered<BR>&gt;independent Third World nations.&nbsp; The borders between the rest of the<BR>&gt;United States and Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, West<BR>&gt;Virginia, and Virginia probably make up more than 3000km.&nbsp; <BR><BR>&gt;- --Glenn<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:57:45 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Looking for a home<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; What I'm also doing is coloring in the star to represent the star<BR>&gt; type.&nbsp; Green for F class stars, Red for M class stars, Yellow for G<BR>&gt; class, Orange for K class.<BR><BR>*Green* for F class??<BR><BR>How about a darkish yellow for G, and light yellow for F?&nbsp; Then A gets<BR>white.&nbsp; Either of B or O get a voltage spike through the electron gun<BR>to make an ultra-bright bluish spot in the phosphors (dunno how to<BR>achieve a similar effect for LCD screens though) ;^)<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Question: should I distinguish between Giant Class stars and main sequence<BR>&gt; stars by making the circle larger for giant class?<BR><BR>Sounds like a good idea.&nbsp; Dwarf stars get a single pixel&nbsp; :)<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Question: should I include symbols for binary and Trinary star systems?<BR><BR>Possibly, though I think the complication isn't worth it.&nbsp; I doubt<BR>there will be many habitable worlds orbiting close binaries, and for<BR>distant binaries you just show the one that the main world orbits.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Me!&nbsp; Except I don't have a Traveller web page yet.&nbsp; Oh well, I can<BR>always start by putting up this map :)<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:07:06 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: more sword stuff<BR><BR>On 21 Feb 2001, at 22:54, Mark Urbin wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Since this thread is up and running, here is some of my previous statements on<BR>&gt; the subject<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; http://spacevermin.homepage.com/TRAV/TravSwords.html<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I know it was mentioned before, but it's worth repeating, Sir Richard <BR>&gt; Burton's book, "The Book of the Sword", first published in 1884 is a good <BR>&gt; reference.<BR><BR>It's a real pity he never finished it with the second volume. Thoughless of him <BR>dying like that.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3726<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (rly-yd03.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.3]) by air-yd02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:10:34 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:10:12 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id GAA12847;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:07:25 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:07:09 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id GAA12799<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:07:09 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:07:09 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102221107.GAA12799@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3726<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, February 22 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3727<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: Looking for a home<BR>Re: Civility and Politeness<BR>TML Landgrab - Ficant site opens<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR>Ine Givar&nbsp; (was Re: System defenses)<BR>Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>Re: OT: Ahem...Third World Nations?<BR>RE: Copyright<BR>RE: What could go wrong?&nbsp; <BR>RE: Don't run...<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Looking for a home<BR>WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law (Was Re: Copyright)<BR>Standard Imperial Culture (or: nobles, rednecks, and bwaps, oh my!)<BR>Re: Don't run...<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>NH4OH vs LH2<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:08:11 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 15:00, Timothy Little wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Better than either is ammonia, at about 18% H2 by weight, with a<BR>&gt; density of 685 kg/m^3 at 220 K.&nbsp; Its boiling point is much higher than<BR>&gt; either CH4 or H2, so it is a lot easier to keep liquid.<BR><BR>It also has a tendency to eat things. Mind you the others blow up when miced <BR>with air, so I'm not sure which is worst.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:12:22 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Looking for a home<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 5:32, hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Well, if neccessary, I'd be happy to host it on mine <BR>(http://www.downport.com/amv/).<BR><BR>But I'd much rather encourage you to set up your own site (talk to the nice <BR>people at downport, they provide a wonderful service). That way, you might <BR>get all keen and add more stuff :*&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:20:39 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 17:31, Jeffrey Malone wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; OBTrav - comparing the US (and Australian) pressure that has been bought to bear<BR>&gt; on NZ to upgrade its defence expenditure and capabilites, what would be the 3I's<BR>&gt; approach to defence expenditure in **client states** on its borders (e.g., in<BR>&gt; Foreven)?<BR><BR>If the client states are anything like NZ over the past couple of decades the <BR>3I would have to pay for everything itself, or accept that its client states <BR>were defenceless. :)<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:19:57 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: TML Landgrab - Ficant site opens<BR><BR>Well, I've finally got round to opening my Landgrab site. Its at <BR>http://www.downport.com/amv/Library/Ficant.html. There's not much there <BR>at the moment, but I'll add more as time permits.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:20:52 +1000<BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]<BR><BR>&gt; From: Hal<BR>&gt; 3) What is the *need* for a Baron, Marquis, or Duke within a Local Power<BR>&gt; Structure?&nbsp; More specifically - you meantion that some nobles have more<BR>&gt; power than ancient emperors of Earth.&nbsp; As I see the bulk of your article<BR>&gt; - it would seem that the only *power* a Noble has is the power that the<BR>&gt; Imperial Emperor cedes to him from what was ceded by the world to the<BR>&gt; Imperium.&nbsp; Thus?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Planet A agrees that it will not implement laws that violate the<BR>&gt; Imperial Statutes on trade, permit no legal slavery, etc... plus pay<BR>taxes and<BR>&gt; provide men for the draft.&nbsp; <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Based on planet A's concessions, what would a Baron of said planet A have<BR>&gt; in the way of power?<BR><BR>My model isn't quite the same as Hans', but I would say:&nbsp; whatever power<BR>they hold as Hereditary President, High Priest and Grand Poobah of the<BR>Republic of A.&nbsp; Their Baronial title is a consequence of that, and in fact<BR>was probably originally granted to whichever of their ancestors signed the<BR>agreement that incorporated Planet A into the Imperium.&nbsp; The title was<BR>bestowed by the Emperor for "Services Rendered", but these "Services" were<BR>the use of their local power base in the interests of the Imperium.&nbsp; Any<BR>power derived from the imperial title is secondary in importance.<BR><BR>Alternatively, there maybe more than one Baron on a particular world, with<BR>none of them holding any governing authority.&nbsp; These are basically honour<BR>nobles, but they are usually going to be members of the local<BR>establishment, or will become such after receiving their titles.&nbsp; They may<BR>also have the ear of the local heads of the Imperial services and<BR>ministries, and perhaps of the Subsector Duke.&nbsp; So their formal power is<BR>non-existent, and their informal power may be quite significant.<BR><BR>Another case may be that your imperial noble may also be the local head of<BR>the Imperial ministries (but probably not services).&nbsp; That is, they may<BR>control the local assets of the Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Finance,<BR>and so on.&nbsp; They wouldn't usually control the local assets of the Navy,<BR>Army, Marines or Scouts.<BR><BR>Or failing that, their power base may simply be based on being the<BR>Subsector manager for Ling Standard Products.&nbsp; That's quite a bit more<BR>power than any terrestrial Emperor...<BR><BR>I see a lot of the lower titles (Baron and Knight) being handed out as<BR>honours for any prominent or distinguished local citizens.&nbsp; This is the<BR>equivalent of the Knighthoods, OBEs and other honours that are still handed<BR>out in some British Commonwealth nations.&nbsp; Australia has replaced them with<BR>the Order of Australia, and similar bits of fluff.&nbsp; These honours carry no<BR>power at all, (nor are fiefs associated with them!), but people still have<BR>been known to do "favours" to get hold of them.&nbsp; <BR><BR>One very relevant example is that the Governor-General of Papua New Guinea<BR>usually receives a knighthood when appointed to that position.<BR><BR>In the Imperial case, these titles often come with fiefs, so are more<BR>important.&nbsp; Basically, they are rewards for doing stuff that is good for<BR>the Imperium.&nbsp; They also help create a layer of people who will continue<BR>doing stuff that is good for the Imperium, and bind local elites to the<BR>Imperium.&nbsp; On the other hand, they give status within the Imperium, and<BR>allow title holders access to the real heavyweights of the Imperium.<BR><BR>Alan Bradley<BR>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:47:49 +1000<BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Ine Givar&nbsp; (was Re: System defenses)<BR><BR>&gt; From: Hal<BR>&gt; GM: You are a local Cell within the Imperium, dedicated to the overthrow<BR>&gt; of the Imperial structure.&nbsp; What are your plans?<BR><BR>Player : &lt;chuckles&gt;&nbsp; Well, first we need to write a program...<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; It would be interesting to see just how effective the Ine Givar could<BR>&gt; be, especially if they started getting their hands on weapons of mass<BR>&gt; destruction - bioweapons as it were?&nbsp; Imagine, what would happen if the<BR>&gt; Ine Givar were to target, not the people themselves, but the plants of a<BR>&gt; single world?&nbsp; They create a carrier such as perhaps a honey bee.&nbsp; It<BR>&gt; pollenates plants left and right, and then - a year later, the plant<BR>&gt; disease starts striking.<BR><BR>Except that all of this is totally counterproductive.&nbsp; The IG needs to win<BR>popular support if it is going to win, and this isn't the way to go about<BR>it.<BR><BR>One of the good ideas introduced in T4 were the political tasks, where the<BR>goal was to create a social impact.&nbsp; An Ine Givar game would need to focus<BR>heavily on these.<BR><BR>In fact, I actually do have a "good guy" Ine Givar faction.&nbsp; It doesn't<BR>rely on guerrilla warfare to achieve its goals (usually), but tends to<BR>focus on mass organisation.&nbsp; It places particular emphasis on<BR>"pansophontism" - equal rights for non-humans, and getting stuck into<BR>idiots like Superioriti.<BR><BR>Of course, when it is necessary, they will provide material and military<BR>support to local insurrections, or even launch them themselves...&nbsp; They<BR>don't play the fool with weapons of mass destruction, though.<BR><BR>I usually call it the Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar<BR>(Solidariti).&nbsp; This name is actually incorrect.&nbsp; Solidariti is the name of<BR>its main legal front group - a mass sophont rights organisation/political<BR>party.&nbsp; The underground organisation is the majority faction of what was<BR>the old Ine Givar organisation on Regina and neighbouring worlds.&nbsp; It is<BR>led by (the majority faction of) the Committee previously responsible for<BR>leading the IG organisation in this area.<BR><BR>There are other factions, at least some of which have "Regina Regional<BR>Committees" of their own and also claim to be the Ine Givar.&nbsp; Hence I stick<BR>(Solidariti) on the end of the name, to show which faction I am referring<BR>to.&nbsp; Other factions might be the Ine Givar (Peoples' War) or Ine Givar<BR>(Unity) or whatever, depending on what their main unifying point of dogma<BR>is.<BR><BR>I lifted this style of nomenclature from various leftist organisations in<BR>the Philippines and India.&nbsp; They've had a lot of splits in the last few<BR>decades that have created a swarm of funkily named outfits, some of which<BR>are quite sane, and others of which are very very mad and bad.&nbsp; In short,<BR>they are a perfect model for the IG.<BR><BR>Alan Bradley<BR>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:39:56 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>On 12 Feb 2001, at 11:51, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; The Traveller Website Review<BR><BR>I hate to be a pain, but are there going to be any more of these? I was <BR>really enjoying them and finding them useful.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:54:21 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: OT: Ahem...Third World Nations?<BR><BR>On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Greenly, Jeff wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Excuuuse me, suh!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ah must take umbrage at your comments concerning the Confederacy, suh! You<BR>&gt; Yaunkees think ya'll are so entitled since you ahchieved that momentary and<BR>&gt; fleeting victory ofah my dear beloved Dixie in the recent unpleasantness.<BR>&gt; Ya'll are nuthin more than brigands an' carpetbaggahs, who simply can't<BR>&gt; appreciate the culture that ya'll have tried to ovahrun with your Yahnkee<BR>&gt; fishmongah's ways durin' the War of Northern Aggression. Well, suh, I think<BR>&gt; it'll have to be pistols and mint juleps at dawn, suh, or I shall think you<BR>&gt; a yellow Yahnkee dog, suh!<BR><BR>Which reminds me: has everyone here read The Guns of the South?&nbsp; I just<BR>finished it last week.&nbsp; Highly recommended.<BR><BR>&gt; ObTrav: Heck, I don't know... Rednecks in space? &lt;reminds me of that skit<BR>&gt; the Muppet show used to do all the time..."Pigs in Space." Same<BR>&gt; difference...I live in a state where wearing orange camo and muck boots to a<BR>&gt; formal occasion ISN'T a fashion mistake..&gt;<BR><BR>A planet or group of planets tries to leave the Imperium.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Greg Kettler<BR><BR>"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you<BR>may not actually need an explicit loop exit.&nbsp; The loop will be terminated<BR>automatically at the appropriate moment."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:35:41 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Copyright<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Paul Knnap<BR>&gt; Sent: 21 February 2001 09:14<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Copyright<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Gentlemen,<BR>&gt; &gt; One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks<BR>&gt; &gt; thread mentioned copyright laws, specifically the<BR>&gt; &gt; fact that most nations ignore US statutes<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address<BR>[snip]<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Most of the time your explanation for ignoring is correct,<BR>[snip]<BR>&gt;<BR>The statutes are ignored, but that does not mean the copyright is - it<BR>is a tricky area. In the US, an author needs to _claim_ copyright and<BR>some of the claims are dubious (some very much so). In the rest of the<BR>world, copyright is considered to be _inherent_ in an "original work".<BR>So, claimed copyrights in the US are ignored outside _but_ they still<BR>attract copyright outside the US under national laws and the<BR>international treaty.<BR><BR>Effectively, that means that while the US statutes are ignored, the US<BR>copyright is matched (and often bettered) by the international and<BR>national copyright protection. The tricky bit comes in the "original<BR>work" and a good example is that the phrase "Dungeons and Dragons"<BR>(for example) is copyrighted in the US but _not_ in Europe, because it<BR>is not considered sufficient to be an "original work". It is, however,<BR>accepted as a trademark in Europe.<BR><BR>There are other tricky areas and these are covered by some of the<BR>excellent links provided in another answer - one of the biggest is<BR>"implicit permissions" to copy work. Most national laws, and the<BR>international treaty, are not really up to scratch when dealing with<BR>electronic media, which are considered by some case law to include<BR>"implicit permissions" to copy. It has been dealt with in Europe by<BR>the newer legislation covering copying electronic media and especially<BR>databases and is being very closely looked at in the proposed changes<BR>to the EU regulations.<BR><BR>Look at it this way. If you publish in the US, you can't sue anyone<BR>under US law (well, some you can) outside the US for copying your<BR>work. On the other hand, you _can_ sue them under the treaty and under<BR>local laws. Even better, if you publish something in the US and have<BR>problems claiming copyright, you may still be covered _outside_ the US<BR>since the copyright depends on the _work_, not the claim.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:54:33 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: What could go wrong?&nbsp; <BR><BR>On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:52:27 -0600 hensley.cr@gte.net (Charles R Hensley)<BR>wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;William wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;A distinctive rattle/squeak in the Air ventilation system. this could<BR>&gt;be<BR>&gt;&gt;caused by the bearings on a fan to be going out or a fan blade to be<BR>&gt;&gt;slightly bent.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Better yet, the noise is heard from the ventilation system, but cannot<BR>&gt;be located because it is not coming from any ventilation equipment. It<BR>&gt;is being transmitted through a mechanical connection to the ventialtion<BR>&gt;system in a inaccessable location and is amplified and echoed by the<BR>&gt;ductwork material and configuration.&nbsp; The faulty part sounds very<BR>&gt;different in the room it is in.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;This should drive the party nuts trying to find the cause.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Charles H<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;P.S.&nbsp; Repair solution: repair the malfunctioning part of the different<BR>&gt;system, add more supports and tiedowns to the ventilation ducts.<BR><BR>Gee! WHY does that sound so realistic, with a detailed repair diagnosis?&nbsp; Must<BR>have driven you NUTS 'till you found it, Charles...<BR><BR><BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:00:22 -0500<BR>From: Kurt Feltenberger &lt;kurt@blazenet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Don't run...<BR><BR>At 06:27 PM 02/22/2001 +1300, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Tod Glenn wrote :<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Frequently an army sniper, equiped with a M21 with<BR>&gt; &gt; STANO sight and sionics supressor was dropped, with his<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ^^^^^^<BR>&gt; &gt; team, into a target rich environment just as night fell.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;An interesting misprint in the context of the TML...<BR><BR>Not a misprint.&nbsp; Sionics was (is still?) a producer of suppressors for weapons.<BR><BR>Kurt Feltenberger<BR><BR>"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ~Stephen Decatur<BR><BR><BR>mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:18:44 -0500<BR>From: Ethan Henry &lt;ethan.henry@sitraka.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As for Canada, I have previously stated my belief that her current<BR>&gt; culture is superior to that of the US.&nbsp; Perhaps they should start looking<BR>&gt; warily at their southern border.<BR><BR>Here's a tip: the only way to become better at anything is to remove<BR>your notions of what constitutes better or worse. Ask any Canadian<BR>if they think US culture is superior - they'll say no. But if you<BR>ask if Canadian culture is therefore superior, you'll get an even<BR>stronger no. :)<BR><BR>We don't really care about being better, we just want you to realize<BR>that we're not a bunch of igloo-dwelling hockey players, you grits-eating,<BR>squirrel-trapping, bucktoothed hillbillies. (Re: Molson Canadian<BR>commercials, http://www.adcritic.com/content/molson-canadian-i-am.html<BR>and http://www.adcritic.com/content/edge-102-i-am-not.html)<BR><BR>(That's a joke son, I say, a joke!)<BR><BR>Ethan<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:37:28 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: John Fox &lt;jfox@verity.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>Richard:<BR>&nbsp; Density of liquid methane is 424 kg /m^3.<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; 1000kg / 424kg / m^3 = 2.36 m^3<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; H in CH4<BR>&nbsp; 4 H, 12 C<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; 2.36 m^3 / 0.25 = 9.43 m^3 (CH4)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; H2O = 9.0 m^3<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; Slightly less than H2O<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; John W. Fox<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Methane should work even better.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Four tons (by weight) of methane should give you one ton (by weight) of <BR>&gt; hydrogen. Don't know the density off the top of my head though.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Richard Wilson <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:44:36 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt;We don't really care about being better, we just want you to realize<BR>&gt;that we're not a bunch of igloo-dwelling hockey players<BR><BR>Yes, we're much too busy fighting off the polar bears to play hockey.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:53:08 -0800<BR>From: Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Looking for a home<BR><BR>on 2/22/01 5:32 AM, hal@buffnet.net at hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Hello Folks,<BR>&gt; I've just started working on a map of the SPINWARD MARCHES using Campaign<BR>&gt; Cartographer.&nbsp; What I've done is to place the stars in their correct hex<BR>&gt; and all.&nbsp; Big deal right? &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; What I'm also doing is coloring in the<BR>&gt; star to represent the star type.&nbsp; Green for F class stars, Red for M class<BR>&gt; stars, Yellow for G class, Orange for K class.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Question: what colors would people suggest I use for A class - Light Blue?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Question: should I distinguish between Giant Class stars and main sequence<BR>&gt; stars by making the circle larger for giant class?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Question: should I include symbols for binary and Trinary star systems?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hal<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>I would be glad to host it at http://www.spinwardmarches.com<BR><BR>Tod<BR>- --<BR>"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.<BR>They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Daniel Webster<BR>- -- <BR>Tod L Glenn<BR>webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.spinwardmarches.com<BR>http://www.solsec.org<BR>http://www.grandsurvey.com<BR>http://travellerguns.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:57:12 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law (Was Re: Copyright)<BR><BR>STOP RIGHT THERE!<BR><BR>Mark Preston wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; The tricky bit comes in the "original<BR>&gt; work" and a good example is that the phrase "Dungeons and Dragons"<BR>&gt; (for example) is copyrighted in the US but _not_ in Europe, because it<BR>&gt; is not considered sufficient to be an "original work".<BR><BR>NOT copyrighted in the US.&nbsp; Not not not not not.<BR>I'm sorry but you are absolutely incorrect on this issue.<BR><BR>"Dungeons &amp; Dragons" is a *registered trademark* in the US.<BR>Mess with it and you will suffer - and you'll pay Hasbro their<BR>attorney's fees and quite possible *triple* damages!<BR><BR>Though you appear to understand the basic disctinctions between<BR>copyright and trademark law, you have confused them.<BR><BR>I suggest extreme caution to the reader.&nbsp; Read about<BR>copyright and trademark law for yourself.<BR>http://www.loc.gov/copyright/<BR>http://www.uspto.gov<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Look at it this way. If you publish in the US, you can't sue anyone<BR>&gt; under US law (well, some you can) outside the US for copying your<BR>&gt; work.<BR><BR>You could sue anyone amenable to jurisdiction in the US.<BR>If they conduct any commerce here, you can get them.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, and before you accept<BR>as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:57:14 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Standard Imperial Culture (or: nobles, rednecks, and bwaps, oh my!)<BR><BR>Following the threads about nobility, rednecks, dark ages/Long Night <BR>and the latinization or Roman provinces, and others, a question has <BR>come to mind that's been congealing for a while.<BR><BR>In the CT era that I'm much more familiar with than the others, the <BR>adventures and background I've read seem to assume/imply a standard <BR>culture that exists on most imperial worlds - similar language, <BR>technology, entertainment, etc.&nbsp; Sure, some worlds have different <BR>government types and law levels, but the culture doesn't seem that much <BR>different.&nbsp; And some described worlds vary from this, but they seemed <BR>to be on the fringe. So:<BR><BR>Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?<BR>IYTU?<BR><BR>Is the starport the usual only haven of "imperial culture" on worlds <BR>and once outside the XT line it's a completely different environment? <BR>Or are the worlds being inculcated with the Imperial culture, brought <BR>on by the nobility, the media, the megacorporations, the x-boats,etc.?&nbsp; <BR><BR>What are the core worlds like?&nbsp; The ones that have been "imperial" for <BR>hundreds if not a thousand years?&nbsp; Are they something like cities in <BR>the U.S. where there's a McDonald's on every block (i.e. tending <BR>towards a bland, homogeneous, commercial culture backed by the <BR>commercial interests of the megacorps)? Would they compare to the <BR>cities in Italy beyond Rome but still part of the Roman Empire?&nbsp; (Or <BR>other expansive empire.)<BR>Does this extend to all imperial worlds?&nbsp; Eventually?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Are the fringe worlds, the un[der]developed backwaters throughout the <BR>Imperium, more at variance with the standard culture?&nbsp; <BR><BR>On the mainstream worlds, the 10% of worlds with 90% of the population, <BR>is the culture that standard?&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>The thread about nobles mention they may just ambassadors (in effect) <BR>implies (to me) the local world may have a radically different culture <BR>than the 'standard imperial one'.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>I'd think the Imperial nobility would have an interest in preserving if <BR>not promulgating their culture to maintain the status quo or increase <BR>their own power.&nbsp; The X-boat system would bring news, entertainment, <BR>knowledge, research developments, etc. from the far corners of the <BR>Imperium to all, aiding the development of a standard culture.<BR>The megacorps would have an interest in standardization (as the <BR>Imperium does in it's procurement policies), too.<BR>What other aspects of culture would be spread and how?<BR><BR>- ---<BR><BR>But then you have the stated imperial policy of not interfering with <BR>worlds internal affairs, which would lead me to believe that cultures <BR>would diversify over the parsecs and years (or at least be able to).&nbsp; <BR><BR>I've seen a picture on a website somewhere detailing the different <BR>"cultural regions of the Imperium"[1]. If there are different cultural <BR>regions are they described somewhere?&nbsp; I think it would be very <BR>interesting to have a general idea of these regions.&nbsp; I envision a <BR>comparison to the U.S.'s regions of the "South", "Northwest", <BR>"Midwest", Southern California, Pacific Northwest, and their cultures <BR>(to name a few generalized ones) - it would useful to know what region <BR>a PC or NPC is from to give some general background and expectations. <BR>(Though, given the scale of the Imperium, meeting too many people from <BR>different regions might not be that likely.)&nbsp; <BR><BR>The JTAS article "I'm from Kamsii" is a very good one (to me) in giving <BR>the player or ref a feel for a character based on where he comes from. <BR>I envision the cultural regions as being more generalized versions of <BR>this, varying for those worlds that are outside the "standard culture" <BR>and the "regional culture" (hmm, kind of like the division of navies - <BR>Imperial, subsector, planetary, in HG.)&nbsp; <BR><BR>And, after reading a discussion about the pros and cons of detailing <BR>sectors officially (as in BtC vs. Rim of Fire), I don't think such <BR>detailing of the Imperial cultural regions would hamper a ref<BR>in developing his TU, but give better overall ideas to draw from.<BR>(Well, for me it would help.)<BR><BR>(OK, so there ended up being 14 actual questions, but I guess all but <BR>the first are somewhat rhetorical.)<BR><BR>Rob&nbsp; <BR><BR>[1] Does anyone know where this map is from, so that I might begin <BR>reading more original source materials and bring my Traveller knowledge <BR>up to par (and stop possibly bothering the list with inappropriate <BR>questions as is my apprehension)? :)&nbsp; <BR><BR>[2] I don't know much about bwaps, but it's the only name that came to <BR>mind for the subject line, so I used it. :)<BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly.<BR>It just happens to be selective about who it makes friends with.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:02:16 -0800<BR>From: Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Don't run...<BR><BR>on 2/22/01 7:00 AM, Kurt Feltenberger at kurt@blazenet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; At 06:27 PM 02/22/2001 +1300, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; Tod Glenn wrote :<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Frequently an army sniper, equiped with a M21 with<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; STANO sight and sionics supressor was dropped, with his<BR>&gt;&gt; ^^^^^^<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; team, into a target rich environment just as night fell.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; An interesting misprint in the context of the TML...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Not a misprint.&nbsp; Sionics was (is still?) a producer of suppressors for<BR>&gt; weapons.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Kurt Feltenberger<BR><BR>Sionics is long gone.&nbsp; It folded with the death of founder Mitch WerBell,<BR>IIRC.&nbsp; While their designs worked, there new generation of suppressors are<BR>far more efficient.&nbsp; Check out offerings by AWC &lt;http://www.awcsystech.com&gt;<BR>and Gemtech&lt;http://www.gem-tech.com&gt;, to name a couple.<BR><BR>A must read for suppressor buff is&nbsp; Alan Paulson's "Silencer: History and<BR>performance".&nbsp; For more detail on suppressor theory, check out the Frankford<BR>Arsenal publication "Silencers, principles and evaluations" Report R-1896.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>- --<BR>"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.<BR>They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Daniel Webster<BR>- -- <BR>Tod L Glenn<BR>webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.spinwardmarches.com<BR>http://www.solsec.org<BR>http://www.grandsurvey.com<BR>http://travellerguns.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:19:37 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: John Fox &lt;jfox@verity.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>Doug:<BR>&nbsp; The volume of one ton of H2 is 13.5 m^3.<BR>&nbsp; The volume of H2O required for one ton oh H2 is 9 m^3<BR>&nbsp; You have 4.5 m^3 less volume required.<BR>&nbsp; Weight is another thing!<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; John W. Fox<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Maybe I'm missing something... (I frequently do...)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Fuel is LHyd...<BR>&gt; Water is H2O...<BR>&gt; Ignoring atomic wieghts/volumes (of which i know less than nothing)<BR>&gt; If water is 2 Hyd atoms and 1 Oxy atom<BR>&gt; Then 1 dTon of water has to conain less Hyd than 1 dTon of LHyd, right?<BR>&gt; So where is the efficiency, or practicality of storing fuel in unrefined<BR>&gt; form?<BR>&gt; Someone please explain (in easy to understand words and phrases :-) what<BR>&gt; I'm missing<BR>&gt; Thanks,<BR>&gt; Doug<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:32:01 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: John Fox &lt;jfox@verity.com&gt;<BR>Subject: NH4OH vs LH2<BR><BR>Hello Everyone:<BR>&nbsp; did some quick calculations on NH4OH<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; Denisty 0.90g/ml (900kg/m^3)<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; 1 ton = 1.11m^3<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; 5H, 14 N, 16 O&nbsp; 5/35 = 1/7<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; 1.11 / 1/7 = 7.77 m^3 ton of H<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; Liquid H = 13.5 m^3 / ton<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; Ratio 13.5 / 7.77 = 1.74<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; What this means is a ship using NH4OH would be able to do a jump 3 using NH$oH <BR>rather than jump 2 with LH<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; John<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Methane, ammonia, and water all work out pretty similar in volume per unit<BR>&gt; &gt; hydrogen stored.&nbsp; For various reasons I suspect methane and water would be<BR>&gt; &gt; the preferred form; if you assume that (a) the jump drive has to work off <BR>&gt; &gt; of preprocessed fuel, and (b) dumping stuff out of the airlock in J-space <BR>&gt; &gt; is not generally a good idea, the preference is to carry a supply of <BR>&gt; &gt; processable fuel, which will be processed into raw hydrogen in J-space, and<BR>&gt; &gt; the waste materials stored.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;Of 'waste materials', the easiest to deal with would probably be CO2.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; If you have the facilities to deal with LH2, liquefying an N2/O2 mix<BR>&gt; should be child's play.&nbsp; The big advantage is that you can just feed<BR>&gt; some of it into the ship's air supply instead of cracking CO2 :)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A suitable unrefined fuel producing an N2/O2 mix would be a solution<BR>&gt; of ammonia in water (ammonium hydroxide).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ammonium hydroxide solution is actually denser in hydrogen than NH3<BR>&gt; and H2O separately, easy to obtain from natural sources, and isn't<BR>&gt; hard to store.&nbsp; The "waste" from 1 ton of such a solution would<BR>&gt; provide at least a person-week of breathing air as a waste-product.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; So any jump-capable ship can do without CO2 recycling for months, it<BR>&gt; just needs to be able to remove CO2 from the air -- a much easier<BR>&gt; task.&nbsp; With a little distillation you can do without water recycling<BR>&gt; too, by removing the ammonia from some of the unrefined fuel.&nbsp; All you<BR>&gt; need is food.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; - Tim<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3727<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-za03.mx.aol.com (rly-za03.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.99]) by air-za02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:36:12 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:35:38 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA26995;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:33:42 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:32:36 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id LAA26901<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:32:36 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:32:36 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102221632.LAA26901@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3727<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, February 22 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3728<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Don't run...<BR>Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>Suppressors...<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Suppressors...<BR>Re: Looking for a home<BR>RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Re: Suppressors...<BR>Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Looking for a home<BR>Re: Looking for a home<BR>Deneb sector?<BR>Groggy and wondering...<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>OT: Ahem...Third World Nations?<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:33:13 -0500<BR>From: Kurt Feltenberger &lt;kurt@blazenet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Don't run...<BR><BR>At 08:02 AM 02/22/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;on 2/22/01 7:00 AM, Kurt Feltenberger at kurt@blazenet.net wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; At 06:27 PM 02/22/2001 +1300, you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Tod Glenn wrote :<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Frequently an army sniper, equiped with a M21 with<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; STANO sight and sionics supressor was dropped, with his<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; ^^^^^^<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; team, into a target rich environment just as night fell.<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; An interesting misprint in the context of the TML...<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Not a misprint.&nbsp; Sionics was (is still?) a producer of suppressors for<BR>&gt; &gt; weapons.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Kurt Feltenberger<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Sionics is long gone.&nbsp; It folded with the death of founder Mitch WerBell,<BR>&gt;IIRC.&nbsp; While their designs worked, there new generation of suppressors are<BR>&gt;far more efficient.&nbsp; Check out offerings by AWC &lt;http://www.awcsystech.com&gt;<BR>&gt;and Gemtech&lt;http://www.gem-tech.com&gt;, to name a couple.<BR><BR>And Tac-Ord as well.&nbsp; These three companies are on my short list when I <BR>apply for the stamp to get a 'can for my M-4gery.&nbsp; Dunno what I'd need it <BR>for, but I've always wanted one!<BR><BR>Kurt Feltenberger<BR><BR>"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ~Stephen Decatur<BR><BR><BR>mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:22:17<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>At 01:39 AM 2/23/2001 +1300, you wrote:<BR>&gt;On 12 Feb 2001, at 11:51, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; The Traveller Website Review<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I hate to be a pain, but are there going to be any more of these? I was <BR>&gt;really enjoying them and finding them useful.<BR><BR>well, if there are going to be more, I'd like to ask that people hold off<BR>on reviewing Sylea Downport.<BR><BR>We've just ordered the Shiny New Computer(tm), and once that is running, I<BR>am planning on a serious facelift for the site.<BR><BR>866Mhz Pentium III, 256Meg of Memory, 20 Gig HD, two CD bays, one 48x<BR>standard, one write-to drive.. man, I'm in Nerdvana!<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.&nbsp; On the<BR>other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Rich Clancey<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:53:24 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Suppressors...<BR><BR>Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;Sionics is long gone.&nbsp; It folded with the death of founder Mitch WerBell,<BR>&gt;IIRC.&nbsp; While their designs worked, there new generation of suppressors are<BR>&gt;far more efficient.&nbsp; Check out offerings by AWC &lt;http://www.awcsystech.com&gt;<BR>&gt;and Gemtech&lt;http://www.gem-tech.com&gt;, to name a couple.<BR><BR>I have an AWC Tac-9 can for my MP-5 and I regret buying it.&nbsp; I *really*<BR>wish I had one of Phil Dater's (Gemtech) Raptors.&nbsp; Those things are about<BR>as quiet as a mouse fart. :^)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:01:37<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>At 10:44 AM 2/22/2001 -0500, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;We don't really care about being better, we just want you to realize<BR>&gt;&gt;that we're not a bunch of igloo-dwelling hockey players<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Yes, we're much too busy fighting off the polar bears to play hockey.<BR><BR>Which is why Lord Stanley's Cup has taken up permanent residence in the US!<BR><BR>This is our revenge for Toronto winning the World Series.&nbsp; The name is a<BR>joke! It's our Series!&nbsp; Never again shall we let the Canadian Menace sully<BR>the hallowed ground of the Fall Classic!<BR><BR>Oh, BTW.. Kiri?&nbsp; Baseball Season is starting. :)<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>&nbsp; http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.<BR>- -Chicago reader, 10/15/82<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:04:55 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>&gt; 866Mhz Pentium III, 256Meg of Memory, 20 Gig HD, two CD bays, one 48x<BR>&gt; standard, one write-to drive.. man, I'm in Nerdvana!<BR>&gt; --<BR><BR>Hey Doug, better up that memory now.&nbsp; We're paying $106 for 256 Meg DIMMs.<BR>I've never seen prices so low. Unfortunately, Sun memory continues to be<BR>ridiculously high, so no upgrades to my site in the near future.<BR><BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:12:37 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt;Baseball Season is starting. :)<BR><BR>And there was much rejoicing throughout the land. Though I'm still not sure <BR>how I'm supposed to go to the "home opener" this year when the Blue Jays are <BR>playing it in Puerto Rico. I had a sick day saved up and everything!<BR><BR>ObTrav: Errr...errrrrr...oh, never mind.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:15:54 -0500<BR>From: Kurt Feltenberger &lt;kurt@blazenet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Suppressors...<BR><BR>At 08:53 AM 02/22/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt; writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Sionics is long gone.&nbsp; It folded with the death of founder Mitch WerBell,<BR>&gt;&gt;IIRC.&nbsp; While their designs worked, there new generation of suppressors are<BR>&gt;&gt;far more efficient.&nbsp; Check out offerings by AWC &lt;http://www.awcsystech.com&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;and Gemtech&lt;http://www.gem-tech.com&gt;, to name a couple.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I have an AWC Tac-9 can for my MP-5 and I regret buying it.&nbsp; I *really*<BR>&gt;wish I had one of Phil Dater's (Gemtech) Raptors.&nbsp; Those things are about<BR>&gt;as quiet as a mouse fart. :^)<BR><BR>I've read a lot of good things about Gemtech, and had quite a few owners <BR>recommend his work.&nbsp; I want to keep a functional flash suppressor on the <BR>rifle for when the suppressor is removed, and IIRC one of the companies <BR>uses a bare muzzle.<BR><BR>Kurt Feltenberger<BR><BR>"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ~Stephen Decatur<BR><BR><BR>mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:19:44 +0100<BR>From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Looking for a home<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR>&gt; Question: should I distinguish between Giant Class stars and main<BR>&gt; sequence stars by making the circle larger for giant class?<BR><BR>Absolutely.<BR><BR>&gt; Question: should I include symbols for binary and Trinary star<BR>&gt; systems?<BR><BR>That would be nice. One relatively simple way of doing it is using<BR>overlapping circles (with the primary being the topmost circle). Let me<BR>show you what I mean (using ASCII squares). A is the primary star, B is<BR>the secondary.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; +-----+<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; B |<BR>+-----+&nbsp; |<BR>|&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |<BR>|&nbsp; A&nbsp; |--+<BR>|&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>+-----+<BR><BR>A trinary system would have yet another circle. It probably looks best<BR>if the tertiary star is pushed back sideways a bit, like this:<BR><BR>&nbsp; +-----+<BR>&nbsp; | +-----+<BR>+-----+&nbsp; |<BR>|&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |<BR>|&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |<BR>|&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |--+<BR>+-----+<BR><BR>&gt; Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?<BR><BR>Spinwardmarches and Downport have both been suggested. Go with both.<BR>That would reduce downtime...&nbsp; *drool*<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:26:16 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>&gt; On 12 Feb 2001, at 11:51, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; The Traveller Website Review<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I hate to be a pain, but are there going to be any more of <BR>&gt; these? I was really enjoying them and finding them useful.<BR><BR>Well, if you really want me to then&nbsp; I&nbsp; suppose&nbsp; I&nbsp; must.&nbsp; (It'll<BR>have to wait until I get home, no web access at work.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>&gt; well, if there are going to be more, I'd like to ask that people<BR>&gt; hold off on reviewing Sylea Downport.<BR><BR>Rats!&nbsp; That *was* the next site on my list to do.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; We've just ordered the Shiny New Computer(tm), and once that is<BR>&gt; running, I am planning on a serious facelift for the site.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 866Mhz Pentium III, 256Meg of Memory, 20 Gig HD, two CD bays,<BR>&gt; one 48x standard, one write-to drive.. man, I'm in Nerdvana!<BR><BR>&lt;Envy&gt; I'm still stuck on a 200Mhz&nbsp; Pentium&nbsp; MMX&nbsp; with&nbsp; 64Meg&nbsp; of<BR>momory.&nbsp; However, I do have a 30Gig HD, a 12Gig HD, an&nbsp; 8Gig&nbsp; HD,<BR>two 2Gig HDs, a 1Gig HD, a 1Gig Jazz drive (with 9 disks), a DVD-<BR>ROM drive, a CD burner, a Zip&nbsp; drive,&nbsp; 3.5"&nbsp; *and*&nbsp; 5.25"&nbsp; floppy<BR>drives, the system box is so big it has its&nbsp; own&nbsp; caster&nbsp; wheels,<BR>and the 21" monitor chucks out enough heat to warm my flat in the<BR>winter months ... but it still only pootles along at 200Mhz.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:30:40 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>Timothy Little writes:<BR><BR>&gt; If you have the facilities to deal with LH2, liquefying an N2/O2 mix<BR>&gt; should be child's play.&nbsp; The big advantage is that you can just feed<BR>&gt; some of it into the ship's air supply instead of cracking CO2 :)<BR><BR>Well, there's sort of a scale difference there.&nbsp; The side effects from one<BR>dton of ammonium hydroxide cracked for hydrogen would be a couple hundred<BR>dtons of air at STP.&nbsp; You're going to have to store it in some compressed <BR>form or another.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:30:51 GMT<BR>From: "John G. Wood" &lt;elvwood@ntlworld.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR><BR>&gt; I was lucky enough to meet John and his lovely bride when they came to see<BR>&gt; the United States some time back (Danie says Hi John and Alison!).&nbsp; In any<BR>&gt; event, he was kind enough to bring with him, a recent copy of En Guarde...<BR><BR>&lt;Waves&gt;<BR><BR>8-)<BR><BR>John<BR>http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:31:09 GMT<BR>From: "John G. Wood" &lt;elvwood@ntlworld.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; One of the things I found about Nobles that I liked was in Pocket<BR>&gt; Empires.&nbsp; The breakdown of duties based on age:<BR>&gt; "Age 1 to 20&nbsp; &nbsp; Childhood<BR>&gt; Age 20 to 40&nbsp; &nbsp; Learning<BR>&gt; Age 40 to 60&nbsp; &nbsp; Ruling<BR>&gt; Age 60 to 80&nbsp; &nbsp; Advising"<BR><BR>This is probably based on generation analysis, described in the book <BR>Generations by Strauss and Howe. There was also an article on it in Dragon <BR>#241, which gives *almost* as much detail as I want for RPGs. I find it <BR>thought-provoking when detailing world histories on the scale of a century <BR>or two. Thought you might be interested.<BR><BR>I've snipped your ideas on applying this to nobles, but they have gone <BR>into my file for closer study in the future. Thanks!<BR><BR>John<BR>http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:42:45 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Suppressors...<BR><BR>&gt; I've read a lot of good things about Gemtech, and had quite a few owners <BR>&gt; recommend his work.&nbsp; I want to keep a functional flash suppressor on the <BR>&gt; rifle for when the suppressor is removed, and IIRC one of the companies <BR>&gt; uses a bare muzzle.<BR>&gt; <BR>You want the the Gemtech, then.&nbsp; The M4-96D attaches to the flash hider.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:59:58 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"<BR><BR>At 05:30 PM 02/22/2001 GMT, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; I was lucky enough to meet John and his lovely bride when they came to see<BR>&gt;&gt; the United States some time back (Danie says Hi John and Alison!).&nbsp; In any<BR>&gt;&gt; event, he was kind enough to bring with him, a recent copy of En Guarde...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;Waves&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;8-)<BR><BR>Hi John - About time you woke up &lt;wink&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:01:22 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>Christopher Thrash writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;IMO whoever wrote the essay about nobles in _Library Data, (N-Z)_ made a<BR>&gt;&gt;mistake when he made the noble titles given out by the CGS into Imperial<BR>&gt;&gt;titles. In the original rules they were local (planetary) titles (There were<BR>&gt;&gt;two more levels above, prince and king, and these were used by actual rulers<BR>&gt;&gt;of worlds [Book 3, p. 22]). <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;It's not like you to quote out of context to make a point, Hans.<BR><BR>Not knowingly, no. And I don't think I did.<BR><BR>&gt;The full citation reads:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;"Ranking above duke/duchess are two levels not reflected in social<BR>&gt;standing: prince/princess or king/queen are titles used by actual rulers of<BR>&gt;worlds. The title of emperor/empress is used by the ruler of an empire of<BR>&gt;several worlds."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;Book 3, p. 22 (1977)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;In other words:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;Social&nbsp; &nbsp; Title<BR>&gt;(G)&nbsp; &nbsp; Prince/Princess or King/Queen<BR>&gt;(H)&nbsp; &nbsp; Emperor/Empress&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;It is clear from context that this system was intended for what we would<BR>&gt;now consider minor pocket empires, not the Third Imperium of the Official<BR>&gt;Traveller Universe (which didn't exist at this point).<BR><BR>What is clear is that social level A-F were planetary titles. The Duke of Alpha<BR>Continent, not the Duke of Regina.<BR><BR>&gt;The revisions of 1981-2, including the article in Supp. 11, explicitly<BR>&gt;change this picture:<BR><BR>It changed it all right (which is what I said in the first place), but it<BR>didn't consider the consequences of the change. I don't know how to put more<BR>clearly than I already did: By changing social level A-F from planetary to<BR>interstellar nobility, the social level system lost an entire slice of society.<BR>And IMO a very important slice, as witness the fact that for almost 20 years<BR>Traveller authors have described and used Imperial nobles as having powers more<BR>or less equivalent to their 17th or 18th Century European namesakes.&nbsp; <BR><BR>&gt;"At the discretion of the referee, a noble may have some ancestral lands or<BR>&gt;fiefs, and may actually have some ruling power." <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;Book 1, p. 9 (1981)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;"The nobility includes within it a subset called the peerage, consisting of<BR>&gt;all nobles except knights and banorets. Except in extraordinary situations,<BR>&gt;to hold a high office in the Imperial bureaucracy, a person must be a peer<BR>&gt;(though not all peers hold office)."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;Supp. 11, p. 34 (1982)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;"All nobility is part of the feudal system of the Imperial government."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;Ibid.<BR><BR>All this is exactly what I said in the first place. That essay changed things.<BR><BR>&gt;It seems to me that the existance of ranks for achievement (which<BR>&gt;"customarily carry no special reward beyond the noble title itself," ibid,<BR>&gt;p. 35), service (including "political support in office, victory in the<BR>&gt;military, contributions or economic assistance from the commercial sector,"<BR>&gt;ibid.) and position ("occupying specific government offices," ibid.)<BR>&gt;significantly dilute the power and prestige associated with hereditary or<BR>&gt;governing noble titles, perhaps enough to justify the canonical treatment<BR>&gt;of nobles.<BR><BR>I disagree, obviously. And even if you are right, it still doesn't alter the<BR>fact that there is no room for planetary nobles in the rank ladder, something<BR>which I maintain is a major flaw. I'll back down a step or two and admit that<BR>Imperial barons may well be less powerful than planetary rulers. After all, the<BR>Imperial noble that 'correspond' to a planetary ruler is a marquis. But even so<BR>an Imperial baron would be the social equal of a minor head of state, not a<BR>baron.<BR><BR>&gt;The kicker, and the clue that you are dealing with no ordinary<BR>&gt;noble, is the suffix or fief used in the style of address.<BR><BR>Yes, but Traveller does not _treat_ them as extraordinary nobles. The CGS hands<BR>out noble titles to every Tom, Dick, and Horatio in the navy with a little dice<BR>luck and to several other careers too. Imperial nobles bum around the universe<BR>with not a care in the world and often no money either. <BR><BR>&gt;&gt;In addition to these rank nobles there are a an undefined number of honor<BR>&gt;&gt;barons and honor marquesses (but NOT counts and dukes).&nbsp; [_Imperial<BR>&gt;&gt;Encyclopedia_, p. 13].<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Note that this is a later accretion: this distinction does not exist in<BR>&gt;Supp. 11.<BR><BR>But I still consider it canon. Admittedly canon that is in conflict with other<BR>parts of canon (that is, the CGS) and so subject to revision. The only problem<BR>is that in this particular case I consider the early canon to be the flawed<BR>version.<BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:01:15 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Oh, BTW.. Kiri?&nbsp; Baseball Season is starting. :)"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Ahhh...&nbsp; A sunny day in the bleachers.&nbsp; Two dogs with 'slaw and a cold <BR>beer.&nbsp; Peanuts.&nbsp; Keeping your own box score on the program.&nbsp; The organ <BR>playing "Charge" when there's a man on second and another at bat.<BR>Rally caps.&nbsp; Cheese in the kitchen and a yakker for a kudo.&nbsp; Chin music.&nbsp; A <BR>ball hit so far there "shoulda been a stewardess on it".&nbsp; The Olde Towne <BR>Team taking their usual September swoon.&nbsp; 1918 and counting...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; One reason I want to see the National Space Plane project to succeed, a <BR>real World Series!&nbsp; Just imagine a Carribean League, a North American <BR>League, and an Asian League all playing in a REAL Series.&nbsp; Ohhhhh <BR>babeeeeee....... (I'm taking bets on the Carribean League!)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ObTrav:&nbsp; Are there any sports that might have a subsector, sector, or <BR>even (gulp) Imperium wide following?&nbsp; DGP mentions that football (soccer) is <BR>still played on Terra; the Imperial Marines play a All Star team for charity <BR>annually.&nbsp; There's a rather violent sport in the RC according to T:NE <BR>(sorry, the name escapes me).&nbsp; Any ideas for Vilani sports?&nbsp; Spreadsheet <BR>racing?<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (Pedro and Nomar and Manny, oh my!)<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:14:23 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Looking for a home<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; +-----+<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; B |<BR>&gt; +-----+&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; A&nbsp; |--+<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; +-----+<BR><BR><BR>Looks like a good approach.&nbsp; I suspect I might make the trinary star stick<BR>out a bit rather than have three overlapping each other at a central point.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; +-----+<BR>&gt;&nbsp; | +-----+<BR>&gt; +-----+&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |--+<BR>&gt; +-----+<BR><BR>It would be something like:&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SS&nbsp;&nbsp; S<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Spinwardmarches and Downport have both been suggested. Go with both.<BR>&gt;That would reduce downtime...&nbsp; *drool*<BR><BR>Sounds like a plan then.&nbsp; How do I submit to Downport?<BR><BR>In the works:<BR>&nbsp; The starmap is just the "basic" map - the next stage will be to generate<BR>a new "X-Boat" routing system that uses nothing *but* Jump-3, Jump-4, and<BR>perhaps Jump-6 Ships.&nbsp; The idea here will be to create a basic Map that<BR>permits me to modify it in later map productions without having to<BR>duplicate the work.<BR>&nbsp; In any event, the new X-boat map will have a code in each hex<BR>representing how long it takes for a message to originate at the coreward<BR>side of the spinward to the last planet on the list.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:12:55 GMT<BR>From: "John G. Wood" &lt;elvwood@ntlworld.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Looking for a home<BR><BR>Hi Hal,<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've just started working on a map of the SPINWARD MARCHES using Campaign<BR>&gt; Cartographer.&nbsp; What I've done is to place the stars in their correct hex<BR>&gt; and all.&nbsp; Big deal right? &lt;grin&gt;.<BR><BR>You *do* know about my utility Gal2CC, right? Which generates Campaign <BR>Cartographer maps of sectors and/or subsectors from Galactic data? IMNSHO the <BR>results are close to the quality of published sector maps, and I can whip up <BR>a SM map in a few minutes. You can download it from<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/Supplement12.html<BR>or I can send you a predone SM map if you prefer.<BR><BR>&gt; What I'm also doing is coloring in the star to represent the star type.<BR><BR>Now, *that* you'd be on your own for. But one of my maps would give you a <BR>good starting point.<BR><BR>&gt; Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?&nbsp; <BR><BR>I expect you'll get lots of offers, but I'd be happy to host it if not.<BR><BR>John<BR>http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:30:23 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Deneb sector?<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR>&nbsp; Has there ever been an official output of the Deneb Sector?&nbsp; If so, where<BR>can I get my hands on the data?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:31:39 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Groggy and wondering...<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR>&nbsp; After dealing with a minor emergency related to my daughter, I'm still<BR>groggy from lack of sleep.&nbsp; (that was an excuse for asking for what follows)<BR><BR>&nbsp; Where in tarnation is the Jump Masking Data?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:40:46 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;On 21 Feb 2001, at 13:19, Stephen Tempest wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; The French must also have had at least some idea of the concept,<BR>&gt;&gt; otherwise it would be expressed as "nobility obliges" rather than<BR>&gt;&gt; "noblesse oblige"...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;It being in French was just an affectation of the English upper classes.<BR><BR>Remember that the English upper classes came from France -- Norman<BR>Conquest, 1066, and all that.&nbsp; (Well, actually, they came from Scandinavia<BR>by way of a long stopover in Normandy where they learned French, became<BR>Christians, and stopped doing the bloody eagle.)&nbsp; Anyway, the English<BR>upper classes spoke and wrote in French until about Elizabethan times. <BR>Some of them still do, I understand.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:44:35 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt; very big snip of material from Mssrs. Thrash and Rancke-Madsen&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Yes, but Traveller does not _treat_ them as extraordinary nobles. The <BR>CGS hands out noble titles to every Tom, Dick, and Horatio in the navy with <BR>a little dice luck and to several other careers too. Imperial nobles bum <BR>around the universe with not a care in the world and often no money either."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Rancke-Madsen,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I read your article on the Imperial nobility with great interest.&nbsp; You <BR>made several points that I hadn't considered before.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; With regards to the "no responsibilities and no money" nobility <BR>mentioned above, might I suggest a solution?&nbsp; I've always handled such PCs <BR>and NPCs as either non-inheriting children and grandchildren or as holders <BR>planetary titles with no corresponding Imperial patent.<BR><BR>1) Non-inheriting titles - I'm not sure of the proper term for it, but a <BR>title decays as each non-inheriting generation is born.&nbsp; Churchill's <BR>grandfather was a duke, his father only a lord with a stipend, and he was a <BR>commoner who had to work.&nbsp; A young man who had excellent social connections <BR>and the honorific of "Honorable" in front of his name but a still a <BR>commoner.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Our Marine corparal who's also a baron might just be the grandson of a <BR>duchess sporting a non-inheriting courtesy title.&nbsp; His daughter would not <BR>even be a knight.<BR><BR>2) Planetary/non-Imperial titles - As the Imperium absorbed both pocket <BR>empires and single worlds, it must have also had to deal with local patents <BR>of nobility.&nbsp; For example when world X joined, it's ruling Grand Duke was <BR>given a patent as an imperial marquis.&nbsp; The planetary nobles below him/her <BR>would recieve lesser imperial titles.&nbsp; But none of them would surrender <BR>their ancient planetary titles either.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Which title they use would depend on which social situation they were <BR>in.&nbsp; Over the centuries, the imperial titles would acquire more gravity, but <BR>the older titles would never be done away with.&nbsp; Too many people would <BR>depend on them for precedence and respect in the that single world's social <BR>mileau.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Holders of such titles would be given some respect and deference out of <BR>mere politeness by the Imperial nobility, but a planetary baron would have <BR>nowhere near the influence, money, or prestige of his Imperial counterpart.&nbsp; <BR>A poor and unknown planetary baron might out "adventuring" in order to gain <BR>the wherewithal to convert his title into an imperial patent.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The social manuevering between "high" planetary nobility and "low" <BR>Imperial nobility on a world could make for very interesting adventures.<BR>An archduchess whose title was 1000 years old before the Imperium was born <BR>might very well look down her nose at a "mere" Imperial marquis, even though <BR>that marquis represents he planet in the Moot and her only duties extend <BR>about as far a hosting the major events of the social season.&nbsp; She and her <BR>followers might work against the marquis' plans and projects in small ways, <BR>just to show him way he "really" stands.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:47:48 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: OT: Ahem...Third World Nations?<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Greenly, Jeff" &lt;greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Excuuuse me, suh!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Ah must take umbrage at your comments concerning the Confederacy, suh!<BR>You<BR>[deleted]<BR><BR>Please understand, sir, that I did not intend any offense to our southern<BR>neighbors by characterizing them as independent and as members of the<BR>Third World.&nbsp; Their independence they have long cherished, as your rapid<BR>and forceful response amply demonstrates.&nbsp; Their Third World nature -- a<BR>life of farming, animal husbandry, and a wide gap between rich and poor,<BR>with little technological innovation -- is also something in which they<BR>seem to take pride; again, your comments about the yankees' failure to<BR>appreciate the southern culture and the yankees' newfangled ways indicate<BR>that we are in agreement.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Mint juleps at dawn does sound good, however.&nbsp; I'm usually just getting in<BR>then.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3728<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (rly-zb04.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.4]) by air-zb01.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:54:01 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:53:29 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA33344;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:50:54 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:47:52 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA33223<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:47:52 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:47:52 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102221847.NAA33223@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3728<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, February 22 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3729<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>world series<BR>Sports in TRAVELLER<BR>Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR>Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR>Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR>Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR>Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR>Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Re: Deneb sector?<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Reposted question for Hans R-M (was Re: Nobles and the Imperium)<BR>Re: Deneb sector<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>New Misjump Mechanism<BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:05:51 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: world series<BR><BR>On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Oh, BTW.. Kiri?&nbsp; Baseball Season is starting. :)<BR><BR>hmph.&nbsp; some world series.&nbsp; none of the teams I know anything about are<BR>ever in it!<BR><BR>and all this khrappe just because I expected to go to a Traveller in SF<BR>gig and talk about Traveller?<BR><BR>@_@;;;<BR><BR>note to other non-baseball fans:&nbsp; do not get within 20 feet of penguin boy<BR>during baseball season if there is a game on.<BR><BR>did I mention that I don't even like baseball?<BR><BR>I don't like baseball.&nbsp; Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow.&nbsp; I like soccer<BR>(esp. J-League, but maybe that's cuz I think a lot of the players are<BR>cute-- god knows I don't follow it any more) and F-1 (can I help it if<BR>Jacques Villeneuve is one of the few Caucasian men I've ever had a serious<BR>fantasy about?). I have been to maybe 3 baseball games in my life and<BR>every time I was bored out of my mind, and finally resorted to scribbling<BR>in a notebook about whatever I was running or writing at the time, and<BR>would rather have done so indoors, with better food...<BR><BR>Baseball is NOT a game for those with ADD.<BR><BR>Kiri&nbsp; ^_^<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:29 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;F205U410MDLmOQ0GoBw0001196a@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts,<BR><BR>Mr Whipsnade just waxed ebulliently poetical about baseball (as I alas <BR>don't know the game he lost me in the first sentence but I read the rest <BR>for the sheer flow of the words!), then asked what sports were played in <BR>TRAVELLER.<BR><BR>Hmm. I have had: -<BR><BR>Rollerball - as in the film of that name.<BR><BR>A similar thing where participants ride on powered scooters and toss <BR>around a ball with handles.<BR><BR>Flyball - (actually I invented it for a CYBERPUNK scenario but it stuck <BR>around) - which is a sort of opposed obstacle race thing.<BR><BR>Racing spacecraft - little things about fighter sized only no weapons (at <BR>least, not officially).<BR><BR>The 'traditional' combat sports - wrestling, martial arts, fencing. Oh and <BR>fighting with pugil sticks which is FUN.<BR><BR>Target sports - shooting, archery.<BR><BR>Assorted things half remembered from a TV show called 'Gladiators' which I <BR>never really watched (but probably should have for research purposes).<BR><BR>There were probably others, but those are off the top of my head now.<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:39:44 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR><BR>Another sport that was mentioned a few years ago was a weightless form of <BR>handball or racquetball. I think it was called "gravball" or something like <BR>that. Some on the list was working up a tee-shirt logo for it using the <BR>Poser graphics program.<BR><BR>John L.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:49:12 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR><BR>&gt;asked what sports were played in TRAVELLER.<BR><BR>There was also a reference to spatball somewhere. I needed a sport to make <BR>an off-handed reference to in one of my JTAS submissions, and found that one <BR>somewhere -- can't remember where, though.<BR><BR>Interestingly, Loren changed what I wrote from "spatball scores on Capital" <BR>to "spatball scores on Deneb", which suggests that he found a reference to <BR>it that I didn't. "That fool," I picture him saying. "Doesn't he know the <BR>professional spatball leagues didn't put an expansion franchise on Capital <BR>until 1126? It says so right here in 'Path of Tears'!"<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:00:57 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR><BR>&gt; Another sport that was mentioned a few years ago was a weightless form of<BR>&gt; handball or racquetball. I think it was called "gravball" or something<BR>like<BR>&gt; that. Some on the list was working up a tee-shirt logo for it using the<BR>&gt; Poser graphics program.<BR>&gt;<BR>IMTU Our version of gravball is more akin to variable G rollerball. The game<BR>is played in an elliptical arena with two grav points at the foci and goals<BR>at either end. It can be pretty violent.&nbsp; The only positions I can recall<BR>offhand are goalie and power forward.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:02:00 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR><BR>Given the difficulties in athletes physically travelling large distances to <BR>"galactic" series games in whatever sport, one solution might be expanded <BR>fantasy sports. Each athlete would have his skills and characteristics <BR>carefully measured and documented, a super UPP. The virtual athletes could <BR>then travel by x-boat for individual or team competitions. Some imperial <BR>organization would have to oversee the measurement process to prevent skill <BR>inflation.<BR><BR>John L.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:04:22 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR><BR>&gt; Hmm. I have had: -<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Rollerball - as in the film of that name.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; A similar thing where participants ride on powered scooters and toss<BR>&gt; around a ball with handles.<BR>&gt;<BR>[snip]<BR><BR>&gt; There were probably others, but those are off the top of my head now.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Battlebots seems like a natural.&nbsp; I am also reminded of the gladitorial<BR>combat in Keith Laumers' "The Body Builders". Athletets in VR control<BR>robotic fighting suits ("his 20,000 credit Charlemagne with all the boosters<BR>the law allows").<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:05:23 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR><BR>&gt;From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Mr Whipsnade just waxed ebulliently poetical about baseball (as I alas <BR>don't know the game he lost me in the first sentence but I read the rest for <BR>the sheer flow of the words!)"<BR><BR><BR>Dr. Mexal,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Your praise in too kind, madame.&nbsp; If you ever get to "cross the Pond", <BR>I would consider it a singular honor to escort you to a baseball game in one <BR>of that sport's shrines; Fenway Park, home to the perennially cursed Boston <BR>Red Sox.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Small, as these things go, Fenway is a snug, trim bandstand of a <BR>ballpark.&nbsp; The stands surround a diamond and field of grass so green, you'd <BR>swear the sod was imported from your homeland.&nbsp; The fans sit so close to the <BR>action that the chatter between players can be heard.&nbsp; The crack of wooden <BR>bats against horsehide balls, the slap of leather gloves, and hurried <BR>footfalls of the players are all real an immediate.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; It's the intimacy of the game there and intimacy is no little thing in <BR>this media age.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The Bo-Sox haven't won the World Series since the boys of our two <BR>nations were whipping those of Kaiser Bill.&nbsp; They have come quite close to <BR>doing so on many occasions, only to fail and break the hearts of their fans. <BR>&nbsp; Greek tragedies could have been written about the Olde Towne Team.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Some pin the curse on the ill-fated trade of a herculean player.&nbsp; <BR>Perhaps you've heard of Babe Ruth?&nbsp; I, however, blame their sunny and <BR>beautiful gem of a park.&nbsp; Although many in and out of the sport wax far more <BR>poetically about Fenway's charms than I can, very few of them know of it's <BR>true nature, a dark and sinister one.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The 'Sox are cursed because their ballpark, the very thing they take so <BR>much pride in, had it's "Grand Opening" on the same day the RMS Titanic <BR>sank.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; So to quote the Immortal Bard, "Fair is foul..."<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:11:11 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Oh, BTW.. Kiri?&nbsp; Baseball Season is starting. :)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; hmph.&nbsp; some world series.&nbsp; none of the teams I know anything about are<BR>&gt; ever in it!<BR><BR><BR>Don't fret Kiri, there are others of us out here who are Cubs or Red Sox fans ;-P<BR><BR>(Why oh WHY did they have to ban that $#@#!@ goat from Wrigley???!!!)<BR><BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:23:53 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR><BR>&gt;From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Given the difficulties in athletes physically travelling large<BR>distances to "galactic" series games in whatever sport, one solution might <BR>be expanded fantasy sports."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Lambert,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; What an excellent idea!&nbsp; "Virtual" games and competitions.&nbsp; Instead of <BR>"shipping" the team, we ship the data instead.&nbsp; This way the Red Sox can <BR>lose to the Glisten Greys in the Imperial Series on Capital without ever <BR>leaving Fenway.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Good grief!&nbsp; My seasons will be even more heartbreaking...<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:02:50 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; Well, there's sort of a scale difference there.&nbsp; The side effects<BR>&gt; from one dton of ammonium hydroxide cracked for hydrogen would be a<BR>&gt; couple hundred dtons of air at STP.&nbsp; You're going to have to store<BR>&gt; it in some compressed form or another.<BR><BR>... which is why I mentioned liquefying it, and feeding *some* of it<BR>into the ship's air as needed.<BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:02:11 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Basically very few people<BR>&gt;&gt; outside the military get the pay of a Chief Mess Specialist, Yeoman or<BR>Personnel<BR>&gt;&gt; Specialist for doing the same job. Very few Chief Electronic Technicians,<BR>&gt;&gt; Electricians, or any of the computer specialty ratings make as little as<BR>they do<BR>&gt;&gt; in the military doing the same job. Just more proof of your point.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I'm begining to think the problem is one that has no ready solution. It<BR>looks<BR>&gt;like the basic issue is that the supply and demand curves for various<BR>&gt;specialites, etc are different inside and outside the military. Simply<BR>changing<BR>&gt;the pay rates won't fix this, because on a ship the cooks, etc are just as<BR>&gt;important to the function of the ship, and paying them less than other<BR>&gt;specialties just because they've got nowhere better to go will damage their<BR>&gt;morale. Our Army has this problem because of under-paying the infantry<BR>(though<BR>&gt;their pay scales are the same, they don't get bonuses for civvie quals,<BR>etc),<BR>&gt;and the only answer anybody's come up with is to pay everyone in the<BR>military<BR>&gt;more, which ain't going to happen.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;--<BR>&gt;"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>This is the same "strawman" argument that the military uses. The fact is<BR>that the company I work for could not operate without the janitors that<BR>clean the offices, the clerks who do the paperwork or the people who run the<BR>tech library, but those people don't get paid any where near the rate of the<BR>technicians or scientists who are employed at the facility. Now I don't<BR>doubt that all of them would have better moral if they made more money, but<BR>no business will pay a clerk the same pay as a accelerator operator.<BR><BR>The answer is not that difficult. Pay each person based on his or her duties<BR>and qualifications. A certain amount of pay for being Surface Warfare<BR>(Submarine) qualified, a certain amount for each Damage Control Party<BR>Station qualified, with persons who are qualified for positions of<BR>leadership being paid more. More money for being a division leading petty<BR>officer. More money for being a technician, than for being a cook. More<BR>money for being qualified as Officer of the Deck or Engineering Officer of<BR>the Watch. (Both watches often held by enlisteds.) And, of course, some<BR>seniority pay for time in, especially for continuous qualification of<BR>demanding skills and positions.<BR><BR>This way a MSC (that's a chief cook) who is also Surface Warfare qualified,<BR>an Officer of the Deck and Fire Party Leader will get more money than some<BR>CT (That's Crypto Tech) who just works his primary job, but doesn't care<BR>about mastering general warfare skills (and so is not as good an asset for<BR>the ship.) Of course a GSC(SW)-That's a Gas Turbine Tech Chief, who is as<BR>qualified as the MSC will make substantially more. He went to school longer,<BR>his a more technically demanding specialty, and has lots of opportunities on<BR>the outside.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:11:10 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 7:22, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; At 01:39 AM 2/23/2001 +1300, you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;On 12 Feb 2001, at 11:51, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; The Traveller Website Review<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;I hate to be a pain, but are there going to be any more of these? I was <BR>&gt; &gt;really enjoying them and finding them useful.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; well, if there are going to be more, I'd like to ask that people hold off<BR>&gt; on reviewing Sylea Downport.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; We've just ordered the Shiny New Computer(tm), and once that is running, I<BR>&gt; am planning on a serious facelift for the site.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 866Mhz Pentium III, 256Meg of Memory, 20 Gig HD, two CD bays, one 48x<BR>&gt; standard, one write-to drive.. man, I'm in Nerdvana!<BR><BR>Ooooh. You lucky devil, you. I upgraded my old P133 mid-last year, but it ain't <BR>that flash (Celeron 566, 64mB, 17GB HDD). Wish the darn thing ran a bit cooler, <BR>though - I'm going to have to spend money on better fans if I'm to run it a <BR>866mHz.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:18:03 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; With regards to the "no responsibilities and no money" nobility <BR>&gt;mentioned above, might I suggest a solution?&nbsp; I've always handled such PCs <BR>&gt;and NPCs as either non-inheriting children and grandchildren or as holders <BR>&gt;[of] planetary titles with no corresponding Imperial patent.<BR><BR>But if his title is a planetary title with no corresponding Imperial patent, why<BR>is his social class considered to correspond to an Imperial title?<BR><BR>&gt;1) Non-inheriting titles - I'm not sure of the proper term for it, but a <BR>&gt;title decays as each non-inheriting generation is born.&nbsp; Churchill's <BR>&gt;grandfather was a duke, his father only a lord with a stipend, and he was a <BR>&gt;commoner who had to work.<BR><BR>Sounds like the father was a younger son who got a lifetime peerage. Regardless,<BR>if Lord Randolph was 'only' an earl or a viscount, then he wasn't of the same<BR>social rank as his father and Churchill in turn wasn't of the same social rank<BR>as Lord Randolph. In Traveller terms, if the grandfather was SL X then Lord<BR>Randolph was SL X-2 and Churchill was SL X-4 (or something).<BR><BR>&gt;A young man who had excellent social connections and the honorific of<BR>&gt;"Honorable" in front of his name but a still a commoner.<BR><BR>If he is an honorable he isn't a commoner (He is much worse, a useless younger<BR>son ;-).<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Our Marine corparal who's also a baron might just be the grandson of a <BR>&gt;duchess sporting a non-inheriting courtesy title.&nbsp; His daughter would not <BR>&gt;even be a knight.<BR><BR>But a marine corporal who was an _Imperial_ baron would be the grandson of an<BR>_Imperial_ duchess and would correspond more closely to a member of the Zar of<BR>Russia close family, and _they_ were all Grand Dukes and the like.<BR><BR>&gt;2) Planetary/non-Imperial titles - As the Imperium absorbed both pocket <BR>&gt;empires and single worlds, it must have also had to deal with local patents <BR>&gt;of nobility.&nbsp; For example when world X joined, it's ruling Grand Duke was <BR>&gt;given a patent as an imperial marquis.&nbsp; The planetary nobles below him/her <BR>&gt;would recieve lesser imperial titles.&nbsp; But none of them would surrender <BR>&gt;their ancient planetary titles either.<BR><BR>I agree. But the Grand Duke of Fornol wouldn't have a social level equivalent to<BR>an Imperial duke but only to an Imperial marquis.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Holders of such titles would be given some respect and deference out of <BR>&gt;mere politeness by the Imperial nobility, but a planetary baron would have <BR>&gt;nowhere near the influence, money, or prestige of his Imperial counterpart.&nbsp; <BR>&gt;A poor and unknown planetary baron might out "adventuring" in order to gain <BR>&gt;the wherewithal to convert his title into an imperial patent.<BR><BR>But such a baron wouldn't be SL 12. He'd be whatever SL the barons of his planet<BR>were. And that's just the problem, because there is no SL for such people. SL 9<BR>is the upper middle class. SL 10 is the gentry. That is the Lord of the Manor,<BR>the rural English squire, lord of all he surveys, which is a few hundred or<BR>maybe thousand acres. SL 13 is the Imperial marquis, the social equal of<BR>planetary rulers. In between squires and planetary rulers you have minor nobles<BR>(~barons), rulers of counties (~counts), rulers of regions (~marquesses/dukes),<BR>rulers of provinces (~dukes/princes), heads of state (~princes/kings), and<BR>rulers of continents (~emperors). And all these ranks are squeezed into just two<BR>ranks, SL 11 and 12.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:24:59 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector?<BR><BR>Am Thursday, February 22, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR><BR>&gt; Hello Folks,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Has there ever been an official output of the Deneb Sector?&nbsp; If so, where<BR>&gt; can I get my hands on the data?<BR><BR>DGPs Megatraveller Journal 1 and 2 has the map (1) and data (2)...<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:25:42 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 17:02, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; This way a MSC (that's a chief cook) who is also Surface Warfare qualified, an<BR>&gt; Officer of the Deck and Fire Party Leader will get more money than some CT<BR>&gt; (That's Crypto Tech) who just works his primary job, but doesn't care about<BR>&gt; mastering general warfare skills (and so is not as good an asset for the ship.)<BR>&gt; Of course a GSC(SW)-That's a Gas Turbine Tech Chief, who is as qualified as the<BR>&gt; MSC will make substantially more. He went to school longer, his a more<BR>&gt; technically demanding specialty, and has lots of opportunities on the outside.<BR><BR>The idea is good, but it's that last that hurts. I don't know about the Navy, <BR>but my experience in our Army suggests that the infantry really suffer (and <BR>other teeth arms) becasue they have few skills transferable to the outside <BR>until they get enough rank to have human resource and management skills. As <BR>these are the people who are the whole reason everyone else exists, and the <BR>ones that do all the dying, they are naturally not very happy about being less <BR>well paid.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:27:49 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Reposted question for Hans R-M (was Re: Nobles and the Imperium)<BR><BR>Thanks for the repost.&nbsp; This time, I burn it on a CD.&nbsp; :-)<BR><BR>Couple of questions:<BR><BR>Have you thought about looking at regional world populations<BR>when thinking about the relative influence of different noble<BR>ranks?&nbsp; For example, worlds of populations (which fuels the<BR>trade equation) X or below might only deserve a Barony.<BR>Pops Y get a Marquis, Pop Z or greater get Count (where<BR>X&lt;Y&lt;Z).<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; With that sort of mechanism, a huge world might have a<BR>Count, a Marquis or two, and a handful of Barons, where<BR>a low pop world may have only a Baron or Banneret.<BR>That would also have the variety you mention, where Baron<BR>Little World and Count Big World each have only one vote<BR>in the Moot (if it's one world, one vote).<BR><BR>Regarding the Typical value for fiefs. Is that 'annual' value?<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:46:40 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector<BR><BR>Hal asks:<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Has there ever been an official output of the Deneb Sector?&nbsp; If so, where<BR>&gt;can I get my hands on the data?<BR><BR>_Regency Sourcebook_ has 1117 UWPs for Deneb. _Megatraveller Journal_ #1 has<BR>UWPs too. I can't recall the date. Somewhere around 1120 or 22 IIRC.<BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:50:05 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "The answer is not that difficult. Pay each person based on his or her <BR>duties and qualifications. A certain amount of pay for being Surface Warfare <BR>(Submarine) qualified, a certain amount for each Damage Control Party <BR>Station qualified, with persons who are qualified for positions of<BR>leadership being paid more. More money for being a division leading petty<BR>officer. More money for being a technician, than for being a cook. More<BR>money for being qualified as Officer of the Deck or Engineering Officer of <BR>the Watch. (Both watches often held by enlisteds.) And, of course, some <BR>seniority pay for time in, especially for continuous qualification of <BR>demanding skills and positions."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Carlino,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I heartily agree with you sir.&nbsp; I was an LPO, the ships' mechanical <BR>calibration co-ordinator, an On Scene Leader, an enlisted surface warfare <BR>specialist, an enlisted EOOW, along with many other positions, and got <BR>nothing for any of it.&nbsp; I had unqualified nubs working for my level leaders <BR>who recieved "professional pay" simply because they'd re-enlisted and I did <BR>not.&nbsp; My E-6 pay, plus sea pay, didn't even come close to theirs because I <BR>hadn't re-upped.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The bean counters and khakis will always find an excuse, often resting <BR>on the hoary idea of tradition and discipline, to avoid ignoring the men in <BR>the ranks.&nbsp; It's "Toys before Boys" and damn you for suggesting anything <BR>else.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:46:10 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: New Misjump Mechanism<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR>&nbsp; While this idea isn't likely new, I've not come across it as yet, and<BR>figured I'd post it.&nbsp; Apologies if someone else proposed this in the 20<BR>plus years of Traveller.<BR><BR>New Routine:&nbsp; Lable top hex as number 1, and work your way clockwise with<BR>2, and 3.&nbsp; Direction 4 would be south of the hex, with 5 and 6 continuing<BR>clockwise.&nbsp; Roll 1d6.&nbsp; This is your distance value.&nbsp; Roll 1d6 again, this<BR>is your direction of error - of sorts.&nbsp; Roll 1d6 ignoring any value higher<BR>than your "distance" value.&nbsp; Thus, if your distance was to be 4 parsecs,<BR>you would ignore a roll of a 5 or 6 and reroll.&nbsp; Then, counting from the<BR>hex in the direction you went initially, move the ship that many hexes as<BR>you rolled for the final resting place.&nbsp; The direction you shift from is<BR>towards the next "Spine" hex.<BR><BR>Spine hex definition: A spine hex is any hex that is *exactly* in line with<BR>one of the sides of your starting hex.&nbsp; Example:<BR><BR>Starting hex is 1927.&nbsp; Spine hex 1 that is 3 hexes away would be 1924.<BR>Spine hex 2 would be 2225.&nbsp; Spine hex 3 would be 2228.&nbsp; Spine hex 4 would<BR>be 1930.&nbsp; Spine hex 5 would be 1628, and Spine hex 6 would be 1625.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Sample Misjump:&nbsp; The Loose Goose Beowulf Class ship is about to have a date<BR>with destiny.&nbsp; It sets course for a four hour... er, 1 parsec journey from<BR>Spirelle to Tenalphi (hex 1927 to hex 1826).&nbsp; An uhoh occurs where the<BR>Engineer accidentally spills a can of NeoPepsi causing it to hit the<BR>engineering panel at a critical moment.&nbsp; Fate (ie, our GM rolling dice)<BR>decrees that the LOOSE GOOSE is fated to travel more or less in the<BR>direction of 3 (lower right hexside of hex 1927).&nbsp; Fate decrees that the<BR>LOOSE GOOSE will misjump 3 parsecs.&nbsp; The GM rolls a 6 sided, and gets a 4.<BR>This is too large, so he rolls again.&nbsp; This time, he gets a 2.&nbsp; What hex<BR>does LOOSE GOOSE land in?&nbsp; First, direction 3 and three hexes leads us to<BR>the spine hex 2228.&nbsp; The shift roll was a "2" so the shift is from spinehex<BR>3 towards spine hex 4, by 2 hexes.&nbsp; This results in a final resting place<BR>at hex 2029.<BR><BR>Second example:&nbsp; The LOOSE GOOSE, not having learned that it is wise to<BR>tune up your engines after that kind of horrible Neopepsi Syndrome (and<BR>having found an ice asteroid in the deeps to return from its previous<BR>escapade) finds itself at Harvosette in hex 2129.&nbsp; It attempts to jump to<BR>Persephone in hex 2228.&nbsp; Again, it misjumps and discovers that fate intends<BR>for it to land 5 parsecs away!&nbsp; The GM rolls a 6 for direction.&nbsp; This means<BR>that initially, the spine hex is 1626.&nbsp; The next spine hex (clockwise) is<BR>2124.&nbsp; The GM rolls a 4 for the shift.&nbsp; Counting from the initial spine hex<BR>towards the next spine hex - the LOOSE GOOSE passes over 1726, 1825, 1925,<BR>and luckily lands in 2024 - Derchon.&nbsp; The engineer quits the ship and opens<BR>the Tavern known as "Loose asa Goose" and has yet to leave his drunken stupor.<BR><BR>&nbsp; What this "process" permits is for ships to land within a "ring" of hexes<BR>that are a set distance in parsecs from the ship's starting location.&nbsp; For<BR>many who are looking at such things statistically?&nbsp; If a ship intends to<BR>make a 1 hex jump towards direction 1, all he needs to roll is a 1 for<BR>direction, and a 1 for distance.&nbsp; This permits him to land in the same hex<BR>as he originally intended.&nbsp; I would however, recommend that GM's<BR>inconvience their players by lengthening their journey times in normal<BR>space...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:51:17 -0800<BR>From: "John Menichelli" &lt;menichel@lvcm.com&gt;<BR>Subject: unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:55:52 +1100<BR>From: Rob &lt;rhoughto@one.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "Oh, BTW.. Kiri?&nbsp; Baseball Season is starting. :)"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ahhh...&nbsp; A sunny day in the bleachers.&nbsp; Two dogs with 'slaw and a cold<BR>&gt; beer.&nbsp; Peanuts.&nbsp; Keeping your own box score on the program.&nbsp; The organ<BR>&gt; playing "Charge" when there's a man on second and another at bat.<BR>&gt; Rally caps.&nbsp; Cheese in the kitchen and a yakker for a kudo.&nbsp; Chin music.&nbsp; A<BR>&gt; ball hit so far there "shoulda been a stewardess on it".&nbsp; The Olde Towne<BR>&gt; Team taking their usual September swoon.&nbsp; 1918 and counting...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One reason I want to see the National Space Plane project to succeed, a<BR>&gt; real World Series!&nbsp; Just imagine a Carribean League, a North American<BR>&gt; League, and an Asian League all playing in a REAL Series.&nbsp; Ohhhhh<BR>&gt; babeeeeee....... (I'm taking bets on the Carribean League!)<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Problem with a Carribean League is most of the people down there, being remnants<BR>of the Vilin^H^H^H^H British Empire, play the much better summer game of<BR>Cricket...A refined game for refined people don'cher know? A lot less frenzied<BR>running about and more time to drink beer...<BR><BR>Other Rob<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:52:28 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Rancke-Madsen,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you responding to my suggestions.&nbsp; Hopefully I'll be able to <BR>clear up a few of my ideas for you.<BR><BR>"Larsen E. Whipsnade writes: as holders [of] planetary titles with no <BR>corresponding Imperial patent."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "But if his title is a planetary title with no corresponding Imperial <BR>patent, why is his social class considered to correspond to an Imperial <BR>title?"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The Imperial nobility ensure that others treat him with deference, even <BR>if they do not, so that the deference due to them is not stinted or <BR>questioned.&nbsp; This doens't mean that his influence or advice would count for <BR>anything among the Imperial nobility, but they'll make very sure he isn't <BR>snubbed by the commons.&nbsp; Can't have the rabble getting any ideas.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "In Traveller terms, if the grandfather was SL X then Lord Randolph was <BR>SL X-2 and Churchill was SL X-4 (or something)."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sounds good to me.&nbsp; Let's see the Duke, Grampa John, would be SL E or <BR>F.&nbsp; Lord Randolph SL A (no title other then Lord) and Winston SL 9<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "...would recieve lesser imperial titles.&nbsp; But none of them would <BR>surrender their ancient planetary titles either."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I agree. But the Grand Duke of Fornol wouldn't have a social level <BR>equivalent to an Imperial duke but only to an Imperial marquis.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I entirely agree with that and wasn't suggesting that he would.&nbsp; He'd <BR>have an Imperial patent whose level would be based on how his world was <BR>brought into the Imperium and how his family has served the Imperium since <BR>then.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Of course, on Fornol or within the boundaries of the long vanished <BR>pocket empire that surrounded it, our Grand Duke might have a still greater <BR>social level than that of an Imperial subsector duke.&nbsp; Especially if he's a <BR>member of an ancient (pre-Imperial)family and the Imperial duke's <BR>great-great-grandmother was just some enobled admiral.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "But such a baron wouldn't be SL 12. He'd be whatever SL the barons of <BR>his planet were."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I'm suggesting a "courtesy" SL for such individuals.&nbsp; He'd still be <BR>treated as a noble, but without all the precedence due a "real" Imperial <BR>baron.&nbsp; His social level off world would be equal to whatever the Imperial <BR>nobility decided it was and they'd make damn sure he was treated that way, <BR>lest the commons get ideas about not showing deference to them.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; It can also work the other way around.&nbsp; If the local noble has been <BR>problem for the Imperial nobility of his locale, they can make sure he's <BR>snubbed when he moves beyond his little social circle;&nbsp; "Listen, pal.&nbsp; I <BR>don't care if you're the Duke of Earl, you still pay full price for your oil <BR>change.&nbsp; Get it?"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "In between squires and planetary rulers you have minor nobles<BR>(~barons), rulers of counties (~counts), rulers of regions <BR>~marquesses/dukes), rulers of provinces (~dukes/princes), heads of state <BR>(~princes/kings), and rulers of continents (~emperors). And all these ranks <BR>are squeezed into just two ranks, SL 11 and 12."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sounds okay to me.&nbsp; Why not have all those minor nobles seem as one big <BR>"clump" from the Imperial viewpoint?&nbsp; The Imperium propaganda professes not <BR>to be interested in the mere internal workings of it's member planets.&nbsp; The <BR>Imperials work backward from the Emperor, down to the Marquis of each <BR>planet.&nbsp; Anything belwo the level of Marquis is not worth worrying too much <BR>about from the Imperial viewpoint.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; With that in mind, in order to handle the plethora of lesser Imperial <BR>nobility below Marquis but above the squire, they cram them all into two <BR>ranks.&nbsp; It doesn't matter what they're called just as long as their get <BR>their dues.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The King-Emperor of Absurdia might have a SL of 15 among his subjects, <BR>an "official" SL of 12 due to his Imperial patent as Marquis Strange, and an <BR>"unofficial" SL of 3 once off world because the Imperial nobility in the <BR>region view him as a completly worthless sack of steaming produce.&nbsp; The fun <BR>is in deciding when each of the SLs are appropriate.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; And that's just where the GM gets to step in.&nbsp; Rather than have some <BR>table, or die roll, or other mechanism, he gets to put his thumb print on <BR>the universe.&nbsp; Canon gave him the guidelines and now he and his PCs can <BR>play.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; IMTU, the PCs with high SLs had two routes.&nbsp; If they rolled a high SL <BR>during intial charecter generation, they were local nobility; second sons, <BR>remittance men, wanderers and the like.&nbsp; If during their career generation <BR>they recieved a +1 soc, it referred to an Imperial award.&nbsp; They were assumed <BR>to have an "Imperial" SL of 9, so the +1 gave them an Imperial knighthood.&nbsp; <BR>Additional awards of social rank bumped them up the Imperial ladder.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; That worked for us.&nbsp; YMMV.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3729<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xc02.mx.aol.com (rly-xc02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.135]) by air-xc05.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:55:32 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xc02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:54:57 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA46663;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:53:48 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:53:04 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA46604<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:53:04 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:53:04 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102222353.SAA46604@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3729<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, February 22 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3730<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: New Misjump Mechanism<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>TML Archive?<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: TML Archive?<BR>re: world series<BR>re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>RE: world series<BR>Re: Deneb sector<BR>Re: Looking for a home<BR>Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>Introduction to Traveller<BR>Re: TML Archive?<BR>Re: More KB3 Questions<BR>Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:05:04 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Misjump Mechanism<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; If a ship intends to make a 1 hex jump towards direction 1, all he<BR>&gt; needs to roll is a 1 for direction, and a 1 for distance.&nbsp; This<BR>&gt; permits him to land in the same hex as he originally intended.&nbsp; I<BR>&gt; would however, recommend that GM's inconvience their players by<BR>&gt; lengthening their journey times in normal space...<BR><BR>I'll say!&nbsp; They could end up anywhere out to about 100 000 AU, for a<BR>journey time at 1G of up to ... 1.9 years.&nbsp; If they emerge at a random<BR>point in a (flat) hex, their median travel time would be 1.6 years.<BR>Longer if hexes have some volume too.<BR><BR>If they're *really* lucky (as in, 1 in 1000 lucky), their travel time<BR>will be 4 months or less at 1G, or 8 weeks at 5G.<BR><BR>Better have good life support :)<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:18:22 +1000<BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt; From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ObTrav:&nbsp; Are there any sports that might have a subsector, sector,<BR>&gt; or even (gulp) Imperium wide following?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Cricket.<BR><BR>&gt; Any ideas for Vilani sports?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Cricket.<BR><BR>Actually, the Geonee claim that they invented Cricket.&nbsp; The Vilani claim<BR>that the Geonee game was copied from Ancient artifacts.<BR><BR>The Hivers also invented Cricket, but their version was based on an<BR>inferior technology, called Baseball.<BR><BR>The K'kree play Rugby.&nbsp; A lot.<BR><BR>Alan Bradley<BR>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:00:59 +1100<BR>From: Rob &lt;rhoughto@one.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Oh, BTW.. Kiri?&nbsp; Baseball Season is starting. :)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Baseball is NOT a game for those with ADD.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Try Cricket...especially Test Cricket...5 days of a slow moving game...<BR><BR>Other Rob<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:08:36 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>From: Rob &lt;rhoughto@one.net.au&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Problem with a Carribean League is most of the people down there, <BR>being remnants of the Vilin^H^H^H^H British Empire, play the much better <BR>summer game of Cricket...A refined game for refined people don'cher know? A <BR>lot less frenzied running about and more time to drink beer..."<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Cricket?&nbsp; Less running and more time for beer drinking?&nbsp; Sounds good to <BR>me.&nbsp; Where's the sign up list?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I like the fact that you can throw spit balls in cricket.&nbsp; I do not <BR>like the idea of flat bats.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; While ambling through a park in Melbourne, Australia once many years <BR>ago, several young discerned I was a "yank" and coaxed me into taking a turn <BR>at bat in front of the wicket.&nbsp; I watched a few pitches at first, then <BR>signalled the young man to "bring the heat".&nbsp; He uncorked what a believe is <BR>called a "googly", whereupon I spanked it into the ozone.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Flat bats.&nbsp; Too easy.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>P.S. The result of my "at-bat" was not due to any athletic prowess, indeed I <BR>have none beyond cheating kiddies out of milk money with three walnut shells <BR>and a pea.&nbsp; Rather, it was thanks to several pints of Newcastle safely, and <BR>happily, enscounced behind my belt buckle.<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:13:59 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt; signalled the young man to "bring the heat".&nbsp; He uncorked what a believe<BR>is<BR>&gt; called a "googly", whereupon I spanked it into the ozone.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Flat bats.&nbsp; Too easy.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>But Cricket bats do make for better oars.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:13:07 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "The K'kree play Rugby.&nbsp; A lot."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Bradley,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I've seen placards stating that "Rugby players eat their dead".<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Surely that then makes rugby one of the Hiver manipulations which ended <BR>the war?<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:09:47 -0500<BR>From: "Samuel D. Weiss" &lt;samwise1@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>Cricket?<BR>Why not Grasshopper?<BR>Or maybe Cicada.<BR>How about a whole series of sports names for irritating insects?<BR>Cricket. Yeah, right.<BR><BR>&gt;:)<BR><BR><BR>Sam<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:12:04 -0600<BR>From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: TML Archive?<BR><BR>I've been away.&nbsp; Is there an archive for messages on the TML?&nbsp; I<BR>searched, but I did not seem to find it.<BR><BR>Hmmm...<BR><BR>Kenneth.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:15:51 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 11:00, Rob wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Try Cricket...especially Test Cricket...5 days of a slow moving game...<BR><BR>But one of them is a rest day. :)<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:29:09 +0000<BR>From: "Doug C." &lt;dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>Thanks to both Timothy and John!<BR><BR>A miracle has happened... I understood that :-)<BR><BR>Thanks.&nbsp; I wasn't thinking in terms of density (or "'preferred'<BR>distance", if you will).&nbsp; It now makes sense to me.&nbsp;&nbsp; I can however see<BR>the problem of weight correspondence between H2O/L-Hyd...<BR>1 dTon of water does mass more than 1 dTon of L-Hyd.&nbsp;&nbsp; Of course in a CT<BR>setting this is not truly relevant, but if you use mass/trust based<BR>system it become a real issue<BR><BR>Thanks<BR>Doug :-)<BR>&nbsp; <BR><BR>Timothy Little wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Doug C. wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Maybe I'm missing something... (I frequently do...)<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Fuel is LHyd...<BR>&gt; &gt; Water is H2O...<BR>&gt; &gt; Ignoring atomic wieghts/volumes (of which i know less than nothing)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; That's the thing -- water molecules pack closer together than hydrogen<BR>&gt; molecules.&nbsp; Atoms aren't hard balls that take up a fixed amount of<BR>&gt; space, and molecules aren't really solid shapes either.<BR>&gt; Maybe it would help to think of molecules in liquids as being a bit<BR>&gt; like flocks of birds or swarms of insects.&nbsp; They have a (roughly)<BR>&gt; fixed density, but it's not because they are actually packed tightly<BR>&gt; against each other, it's that they sort of have a "preferred"<BR>&gt; distance.<BR>&gt; Water molecules have a smaller "preferred" distance than hydrogen<BR>&gt; ones, for various reasons.<BR><BR>&nbsp; AND<BR><BR>John W. Fox Wrote;<BR>&gt; Doug:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; The volume of one ton of H2 is 13.5 m^3.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; The volume of H2O required for one ton oh H2 is 9 m^3<BR>&gt;&nbsp; You have 4.5 m^3 less volume required.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Weight is another thing!<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; John W. Fox<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:25:07 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TML Archive?<BR><BR>Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions writes:<BR>&gt; I've been away.&nbsp; Is there an archive for messages on the TML?&nbsp; I<BR>&gt; searched, but I did not seem to find it.<BR><BR>Yes, though it's mighty inconvenient. <BR>ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/MailingListArchive/Traveller/<BR><BR>Current archives are still in v1999.*, for whatever reasons.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:31:45 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: world series<BR><BR>&gt;From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;I don't like baseball.&nbsp; Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow.&nbsp; I like soccer<BR><BR>That's why it's the most popular sport in Japan.&nbsp; It's a long, meditative,<BR>war.&nbsp; It's the only spectator sport involving balls and teams that I can<BR>stand to watch.&nbsp; I'll bet we could get a Trav-in-SF group out for a day<BR>game this summer.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:32:44 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR><BR>Let's not forget Grav Ball, everybody's favorite spectator ball-and-team<BR>sport in the Far Future.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:32:49 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>Doug C. writes:<BR>&gt; Thanks to both Timothy and John!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A miracle has happened... I understood that :-)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Thanks.&nbsp; I wasn't thinking in terms of density (or "'preferred'<BR>&gt; distance", if you will).&nbsp; It now makes sense to me.&nbsp;&nbsp; I can however see<BR>&gt; the problem of weight correspondence between H2O/L-Hyd...<BR>&gt; 1 dTon of water does mass more than 1 dTon of L-Hyd.&nbsp;&nbsp; Of course in a CT<BR>&gt; setting this is not truly relevant, but if you use mass/trust based<BR>&gt; system it become a real issue<BR><BR>Since you can't typically feed water into a jump drive anyway, the only real<BR>use for chemical hydrogen storage is if you want to be able to jump twice<BR>without refueling, in which case you can use chemical storage for the fuel<BR>for the second jump.&nbsp; This is mostly useful for rift-crossing.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:36:05 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>Tell me when i love live baseball 8) which is weird my favorite times are<BR>the small teams not the major leagues. Houwever if i had to choose a Major<BR>league team it would be the cubbies 8P<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Glenn Goffin [mailto:gmgoffin@yahoo.com]<BR>Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 4:32 PM<BR>To: traveller mailing aa list<BR>Subject: re: world series<BR><BR><BR>&gt;From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;I don't like baseball.&nbsp; Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow.&nbsp; I like soccer<BR><BR>That's why it's the most popular sport in Japan.&nbsp; It's a long, meditative,<BR>war.&nbsp; It's the only spectator sport involving balls and teams that I can<BR>stand to watch.&nbsp; I'll bet we could get a Trav-in-SF group out for a day<BR>game this summer.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices!<BR>http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:43:22 +0000<BR>From: "Doug C." &lt;dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector<BR><BR>DGP Traveller's Digest #1 has subsector key, Dot Map (w x-boat routes),<BR>some library data, and Pretoria subsector hexmap &amp; UWP c.1111<BR>Digest #2 has some library data, and Atsah subsector hexmap &amp; UWP c.1111<BR>Digest #19 has full sector hexmap, UWP, and Library Data c.1120<BR>DPG The Early Adventures (compendium of the 'adventure' from TD 1-4)<BR>reprinted this material)<BR><BR>Doug :-)<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hal asks:<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Has there ever been an official output of the Deneb Sector?&nbsp; If so, where<BR>&gt; &gt;can I get my hands on the data?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; _Regency Sourcebook_ has 1117 UWPs for Deneb. _Megatraveller Journal_ #1 has<BR>&gt; UWPs too. I can't recall the date. Somewhere around 1120 or 22 IIRC.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:46:42 +0000<BR>From: "Doug C." &lt;dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Looking for a home<BR><BR>Me<BR><BR>Doug :-)<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hello Folks,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've just started working on a map of the SPINWARD MARCHES using Campaign<BR>&gt; Cartographer.&nbsp; What I've done is to place the stars in their correct hex<BR>&gt; and all.&nbsp; Big deal right? &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; What I'm also doing is coloring in the<BR>&gt; star to represent the star type.&nbsp; Green for F class stars, Red for M class<BR>&gt; stars, Yellow for G class, Orange for K class.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Question: what colors would people suggest I use for A class - Light Blue?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Question: should I distinguish between Giant Class stars and main sequence<BR>&gt; stars by making the circle larger for giant class?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Question: should I include symbols for binary and Trinary star systems?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:52:59 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR>Somehow, I suspect that my chances of getting my hands on Deneb via DGP's<BR>stuff is vanishingly small.&nbsp; Question for Loren:<BR><BR>Since it seems that DPG's stuff is off limits for publication, will SJGames<BR>publish a *new* Deneb sector?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:04:37 +0000<BR>From: "Doug C." &lt;dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR><BR>I truly hope not!<BR>I for one have been using the excellent DGP Deneb material for CT for<BR>MANY.... years.<BR>My current campaign uses the DGP material for Deneb/Corridor/Trojan<BR>reach &amp; Reft sectors. The material without the MT/Rebellion adjustments<BR>of course, as my current campaign date is 1112<BR><BR>Doug :-)<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hello Folks,<BR>&gt; Somehow, I suspect that my chances of getting my hands on Deneb via DGP's<BR>&gt; stuff is vanishingly small.&nbsp; Question for Loren:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Since it seems that DPG's stuff is off limits for publication, will SJGames<BR>&gt; publish a *new* Deneb sector?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:13:38 -0700<BR>From: "A. Batishko" &lt;abatish@utah-inter.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Introduction to Traveller<BR><BR>I've got a friend who will be joining the PBEM I'm running. He told me that<BR>he's having a hard time envisioning his character since he doesn't have any<BR>background knowledge to the Traveller setting. Are there any electronic<BR>based introductions to Traveller that cover basic information about the<BR>setting? I don't live anywhere near the guy, so I need to either e-mail him<BR>something, or give him a url he can check out...<BR><BR>Andrew<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:13:23 -0600<BR>From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TML Archive?<BR><BR>Thanks Anthony!<BR><BR>Kenneth.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:08:23 -0600<BR>From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions<BR><BR>Hey David,<BR><BR>I've been away from the list, so it's a good thing you wrote me individually<BR>(or I would not have received your question).&nbsp; As you requested, I will respond<BR>to you personally and to the list.<BR><BR>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Piter's friend, Rnold is a very strong fellow, he has an Str of<BR>&gt; &gt;14, and he grabs that hatch wheel and gives it a mighty yank. I<BR>&gt; &gt;take it he still rolls the default 1d6 on his Lifting task?<BR><BR>Yes, he rolls 1D6 default skill.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; How<BR>&gt; &gt;is Rnold's 14 helping him here?<BR><BR>This is an "attribute" roll--one of those skill rolls in Traveller that the<BR>Traveller skill set doesn't cover (well...usually doesn't cover...T4's<BR>Athletics skill went a long way to covering situations like this that were not<BR>covered in CT and MT rules).<BR><BR>An attribute roll gets a special modifier to the Difficulty.&nbsp; (Reduce the<BR>Difficulty by an amount equal to the stat.)<BR><BR>So...<BR><BR>If the GM decided that the Difficulty of pulling open that stuck hatch was<BR>Difficult, Rnold would roll 1D6 (his default skill) versus the GM's Difficulty<BR>roll of 3D6 - 14&nbsp; (3D6 is Difficult, and we subtract Rnold's Str because this<BR>is an attribute roll).<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt;He may not fail as badly as Piter, but he is still going to fail<BR>&gt; &gt;as *often* isn't he?<BR><BR>He will fail as often if his Str is the same as Piter's.<BR><BR>If Piter's Str is 7, and Rnold's is 14 (and the task to force open the hatch is<BR>still Difficult), then....<BR><BR>Piter will roll 1D6 vs 3D6 - 7<BR>Rnold will roll 1D6 vs 3D6 - 14<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; Kenneth, you never really answered this question - or maybe I'm just<BR>&gt; confused.<BR><BR>Hopefully, that cleared it up for you.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; If Rnold rolls a Task Throw of 5 on 1D and you roll a Diff Throw of 18 on<BR>&gt; 3D, he has still _failed_, hasn't he?<BR><BR>This is probably repetitive, but to make sure I answer your exact question:<BR><BR>Rnold throws a 5 on his 1D6.<BR>Difficulty throw is 18 on 3D6.<BR>Rnold succeeds because 5 is greater than 4 (18 - 14)<BR><BR>And, because "5" is less than Rnold's Str 14, it is a Greater Success.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; As far as I can tell, Rnold FAILED his roll. Therefore you subtract 14 from<BR>&gt; 18 and get 4, which you compare to the Task Roll of 5. Since the Task Throw<BR>&gt; _beat_ the Diff Throw minus Stat, it is only a Regular Failure.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Am I interpreting this correctly???<BR><BR>No.&nbsp; See above.<BR><BR>I'll go over it again just to be clear.&nbsp; You'll see that it's really simple.<BR><BR>(1)&nbsp; Rnold has Str 14 and is making an attribute check based on Str to open a<BR>stuck hatch.&nbsp; The GM says the hatch would be Difficult to open.<BR><BR>(2)&nbsp; Rnold throws 1D, getting a 5.<BR><BR>(3)&nbsp; GM throws difficulty of 3D, getting 18.&nbsp; We subtract Rnold's Str from this<BR>total because it is an attribute check, so the difficulty throw results in a<BR>total of 4.<BR><BR>(4)&nbsp; Rnold's throw is a success because his task throw of "5" beat the<BR>difficulty throw of "4".&nbsp; And, because Rnold's successful throw was LOWER than<BR>the governing stat (5 is lower than 14), it is a Greater Success throw as well.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; 2.&nbsp;&nbsp; "Exactly Equal" Cases<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Also, your rules missed the "exactly equals" cases:<BR><BR>I didn't miss that (I just don't thing the "greater than or equal to" and "less<BR>than or equal to" signs came out right on the TML write up).<BR><BR>Just for clarification:&nbsp; if the Task Throw and the Difficulty Throw are equal,<BR>the Task Throw is a success.<BR><BR>So, if a guy throws 2D to hit and his result is 7, he will succeed if the<BR>difficulty throw is 7 or less, fail if the difficulty throw is 8 or better.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; 3.&nbsp;&nbsp; Does Greater Success Work?<BR><BR>Yes.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; I'm really having difficulties with the Greater Success stuff.<BR><BR>I'll see if I can help you.&nbsp; I bet the problem you are having is that you want<BR>to either roll really, really high or really, really low.&nbsp; KB3 is not based on<BR>this.&nbsp; It is based on a "just enough is what you want and too much is not as<BR>good" philosophy.<BR><BR>In KB3, the closer you roll to the target number the better&nbsp; (KB3 is not "the<BR>farther you roll above the target number the better).<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; To me, it<BR>&gt; seems counter-intuitive at first glance. If you absolutely blitz the Task<BR>&gt; Throw (roll really high), you are more likely to achieve Marginal Success<BR>&gt; than Greater Success.<BR><BR>This is correct, by design.<BR><BR>(If the example below does not clear it up for you, let me know--I'll discuss<BR>Greater Success in more detail).<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; Also, the higher the Diff Throw, the more chance you<BR>&gt; could roll under Diff Throw + Stat and thus the more chance of Greater<BR>&gt; Success. Why? (what are your thoughts?)<BR><BR>You've got this part of KB3 wrong.&nbsp; I'll walk you through a typical task throw.<BR><BR>Barge, a sergeant major from the Sword Worlds, has Dex 9 and Pistol-3.&nbsp; He<BR>wants to shoot at a Darrian that has pissed him off.<BR><BR>The Darrian bad guy is at a range of 40 meters (which is Short range on the<BR>combat chart).&nbsp; To hit a target at Short range, you have to throw a Difficult<BR>task (Difficult tasks are 3D).<BR><BR>So...Barge has to make a Difficult Pistol throw in order to shoot the Darrian<BR>that pissed him off.<BR><BR>Here's how the task would work out in the game...<BR><BR>(1)&nbsp; Barge shoots at the Darrian.&nbsp; 4D are rolled (a number of D6 equal to the<BR>E-Die plus Skill level).&nbsp; Barge gets a total of 7.<BR><BR>(2)&nbsp; Then, the GM throws the difficulty for the Darrian.&nbsp; Range is Short, so 3D<BR>are thrown.&nbsp; Total is 7 as well.<BR><BR>(3)&nbsp; What does this mean?&nbsp; Barge hit the Darrian (ties go to the task throw),<BR>and Barge's to hit throw resulted in a Greater Success (his total of 7 is less<BR>than his Dex 9).<BR><BR><BR>All KB3 is...is comparing two dice totals.&nbsp; One throw is for the aggressor and<BR>the other is for the defender.&nbsp; The highest of the two wins.<BR><BR>A task means that someone is trying to overcome some sort of obstacle.&nbsp; The<BR>Task Throw represents that person's effort to succeed.&nbsp; The Difficulty Throw<BR>represents the obstacles standing in that person's way of accomplishing his<BR>task.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; 4.&nbsp;&nbsp; How Do Task Throw Bonuses Work?<BR><BR>Modifiers ALWAYS are applied to the difficulty.&nbsp; They are ALMOST NEVER applied<BR>to the Task Roll (I say "almost" because there are one or two exceptions).<BR><BR>So...<BR><BR>In KB3, you're only modifing ONE number--the Difficulty.<BR><BR>Beneficial mods will REDUCE the Difficulty.<BR>Dis-advantageous mods will INCREASE the Difficulty.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Now, I know you haven't shown us all the combat mods yet, but... say you<BR>&gt; had a long-range weapon (+5 to Aimed Fire) with an advanced sight (+4) and<BR>&gt; you are aiming at a stationary target (+2), you get +11 to hit.<BR><BR>So, you would REDUCE the Difficulty by 11.<BR><BR>Barge (Dex 9, Pistol-3), is firing at Daine the Darrian, and Barge gets all the<BR>mods you suggest above.&nbsp; If Daine was at Short Range (3D Difficulty), the throw<BR>would be...<BR><BR>Barge's 4D attack throw vs 3D - 11.<BR><BR>(It's that simple.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; This will<BR>&gt; almost certainly convert any success into only a Marginal Success (assuming<BR>&gt; I was correct in my earlier interpretation).<BR><BR>Not if you apply all mods to the Difficulty throw.&nbsp; (This is the main reason<BR>for having the rule of all mods applied to the Difficulty--I just got lucky<BR>with the simplicity of only having to think about one side of the task, not<BR>both the task and difficulty throws).<BR><BR><BR>&gt; In other words, the better<BR>&gt; your equipment, the worse the result!<BR><BR>Negative.&nbsp; Reduce your difficulty with your mods from your better equipment--it<BR>will be MORE LIKELY that you roll Greater Success.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; One idea I had to fix this is to only<BR>&gt; compare the _base roll_ (no mods) with the (Diff Throw + Stat).<BR><BR>As I demonstrated above, it doesn't need fixin'!<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Comments?<BR><BR>Hope they were clear and helpful.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; (Kenneth, could you send your replies to me as well as the list, since I'm<BR>&gt; getting snowed under by work emails, let alone my 50-or-so unread TML<BR>&gt; digests!!!)<BR><BR>You got.<BR><BR>It was a pleasure.<BR><BR>Kenneth.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:15:34 +1100<BR>From: Rob &lt;rhoughto@one.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR><BR>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Let's not forget Grav Ball, everybody's favorite spectator ball-and-team<BR>&gt; sport in the Far Future.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Vargrball...chase the ball! chase the ball! arf arf arf...<BR><BR>Other Rob<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3730<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-ye04.mx.aol.com (rly-ye04.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.201]) by air-ye04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:20:16 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:19:46 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id UAA51242;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:18:30 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:18:19 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA51191<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:18:19 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:18:19 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102230118.UAA51191@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3730<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, February 22 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3731<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Re:&nbsp; WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR>Re: Introduction to Traveller<BR>Re: Standard Imperial Culture (or: nobles, rednecks, and bwaps, oh my!)<BR>Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>The spirit of the game<BR>Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR>Strange sports<BR>Traveller Sports<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Re: Strange sports<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:19:53 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt;How about a whole series of sports names for irritating insects?<BR><BR>I'm not sure I'm up for a game called "Danny DeVito"<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:31:40 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; the world's GWP would be calculated according to some formula<BR>&gt; agreed upon between the world and the Imperium, and the Imperium would get a<BR>&gt; check for that amount. As the only way of transferring wealth from one system <BR>&gt; to another is to transport goods from one to the other, the Imperium would<BR>&gt; mostly get its cut in goods and services. Starships, supplies, annual <BR>&gt; maintenances, etc.<BR><BR>The worlds of the Imperium could easily transfer wealth from <BR>themselves to the Imperium by simply paying in Imperial credits.<BR><BR>Every Imperial credit out there is a debt that the Imperium owes<BR>the holder of that credit. If worlds turn these credits in then<BR>the indebtedness of the Imperium is released. The Imperium can <BR>then use these credits as they see fit. If the Imperial credit<BR>is not accepted by the Imperial government why should anyone<BR>else accept it?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:37:37 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re:&nbsp; WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR><BR>"Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; before you accept<BR>&gt; as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself.<BR><BR>Bloo could you suggest an appropriate source I might use<BR>to look up the factualness of the above assertion? :)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:44:20 -0600<BR>From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Introduction to Traveller<BR><BR>"A. Batishko" wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I don't live anywhere near the guy, so I need to either e-mail him<BR>&gt; something, or give him a url he can check out...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Andrew<BR><BR>Andrew,<BR><BR>Will this help you?<BR><BR><BR>==============<BR><BR><BR><BR>The year is 1105,<BR><BR>by the calendar established at the dawn of humanitis third<BR>attempt at an interstellar empire.<BR><BR>For over a thousand standard years, man has pushed out into<BR>the galactic arm, conqueror of all in his path, dominator of<BR>planets and solar systems alike, stretching his reach over 200<BR>parsecs from Terra.<BR><BR>Aliens refer to this region of the galaxy as Humani Space.<BR>Humans call it<BR><BR>The Third Imperium.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Known space is but a fraction of the entire galaxy, but the Third Imperium is<BR>one of the largest empires in known spacethe largest interstellar empire in<BR>existence.&nbsp; It is one of three human-dominated empires, and together, these<BR>three human dominated regions account for over a fourth of every solar system<BR>that has ever been explored.<BR><BR>Humans are the most numerous beings known to exist.<BR><BR>A blue planet, lying far out in one of the spiral arms of the Milky Way, is the<BR>birthworld of the Humani.&nbsp; Some refer to this world by its ancient name, Earth,<BR>but most beings today call it Terra.<BR><BR>Humans from this world are no longer referred to as Terrans or Earthlings.<BR>They are known as Solomanimeaning Men of Sol (Sol being the name of<BR>Earths sun).&nbsp; And, if you count the current year by the ancient Solomani<BR>calendar, the year is 5623 ADthe 57th century, in ancient Earth terms.<BR><BR>For an age, the Solomani believed themselves to be the only intelligent life in<BR>existence.&nbsp; They experienced a rude change in their culture when they<BR>discovered otherwise.&nbsp; As they took to the stars, the Solomani, like so many<BR>species before them, began to colonize other worlds.&nbsp; At first, they settled<BR>their solar system, and then, as their technology developed, allowing them to<BR>push out into the void, they set foot on worlds in other star systems.<BR><BR>They discovered other intelligent lifealien life.<BR><BR>And, they discovered that some of the aliens were human!<BR><BR>The Solomani year was 2096 AD.&nbsp; Terran explorersmen from the small, fledgling<BR>grouping of Solomani planets--made contact with another race of humans, humans<BR>calling themselves Vilani.<BR><BR>But that shockcarrying with it ramifications in religion and eons of<BR>scientific theory that the Terran society and culture would barely overcomewas<BR>reflected as a simple Solomani facial tick when compared to the discovery that<BR>the Vilani already controlled an interstellar empire.<BR><BR>The Vilani called their empire the Ziru Sirka, meaning Grand Empire of Stars,<BR>and it was so vast and awe-inspiring that it took years to travel across, even<BR>in the fastest jump-capable starships of the time.<BR><BR>The Ziru Sirkawhat history refers to as the First Imperiumpredated the<BR>Solomani jump out from Terra by some 1500 standard years.<BR><BR>When the Solomani were just beginning to explore the<BR>use of iron, the Vilani were exploring the galaxy.<BR><BR>The Vilani empire had existed since 473 AD on the Solomani calendar, and the<BR>Grand Empire of Stars stood poised to swallow the pitiful number of systems the<BR>Solomani had settled as a river swallowing a few pebbles that fall in its path.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>The Interstellar Wars.<BR><BR>The Solomani and the Vilani became co-habitants in the space around Earth.&nbsp; The<BR>Vilani made initiatives to draw the Solomani into the Ziru Sirka, and the<BR>Solomani resisted.<BR><BR>War broke out.&nbsp; Fiercely independent, the Solomani defied efforts to have their<BR>culture swallowed by the humans-not-from-Earth.&nbsp; But, the Vilani leaders on<BR>Vland, the Ziru Sirka capital, looked at the Terrans with little more than mild<BR>curiosity.&nbsp; The pitiful number of Terran systems were but just one more client<BR>state of the great, star-spanning empire of the Vilani.<BR><BR>For close to two centuries, the relations between the Vilani and the Terran<BR>Confederation (as Solomani Space had come to be known), were typified by a<BR>number wars fought along the Ziru Sirkas rimward border.<BR><BR>Communication within the Grand Empire of Stars was slow, and Vilani culture<BR>emphasized decision by committeea stark contrast to the culture of the<BR>Solomani, where individual initiative is lauded and communication distances<BR>within the much smaller Terran Confederation were extremely shorter.<BR><BR>The Solomani fought a guerilla war, on many different fronts, followed by<BR>peace, then war, then peace, then war again.&nbsp; The Vilani leaders regarded the<BR>Interstellar Wars as little more than a regional problemwhere issues in other<BR>parts of the enormous empire drew priority.<BR><BR>And over this 189 year period, the people of the Solomani and the Vilani<BR>mingled.&nbsp; A great diaspora from Earth ensued, and Terrans, like the Chosen<BR>People, spread out from Earth, planting themselves on distant planets.<BR><BR><BR><BR>The Rule of Man.<BR><BR>218 standard years after first contact between the Solomani and the Vilani, one<BR>of the most confounding hiccups in history occurred.<BR><BR>The Solomani had saturated the rimward systems of the Ziru Sirka.&nbsp; Many of them<BR>came to power on Vilani held worlds.&nbsp; The two cultures blended.&nbsp; Solomani<BR>influence soared, and the Vilani were hampered by the slow, meticulous decision<BR>process characteristic of their culture.<BR><BR>In a blink of an eye, just 15 years after the end of the last Interstellar War<BR>between the two peoples, the Solomani came to power.&nbsp; The Ziru Sirka fell.<BR><BR>A Solomani empire referred to the Rule of Man was born.&nbsp; It was the same<BR>empirejust under new leadership, even though Solomani rule is referred to, in<BR>history, as the Second Imperium.<BR><BR>The men of Earth, from the tiny collection of stars, had defeated the might of<BR>the Grand Empire of Stars.<BR><BR>David had slew Goliath.<BR><BR><BR><BR>The Long Night.<BR><BR>The Rule of Man was characterized by rebirth but little growth of the Second<BR>Imperium.&nbsp; Under Vilani rule, the First Imperium had floundered, stagnated, in<BR>both growth and technological development.&nbsp; The Solomani fought to change that<BR>characteristic of the empire, but it was a difficult battle.&nbsp; The Vilani system<BR>had been entrenched for close to 2000 years.&nbsp; The Solomani experience with<BR>governing an interstellar government was under 200 yearsand never had the<BR>Terrans&nbsp; ruled an empire as vast as the Imperium.<BR><BR>It was a miracle the Solomani became governors of the largest star-empire in<BR>existence.&nbsp; And, it was inevitable they would loose it.<BR><BR>Nobody foresaw just how bad the new rulers would be for the Second Imperium.<BR>Where the Vilani were stagnant and rigid, the Solomani were inexperienced and<BR>naive.<BR><BR>The first indication of the inability of the Solomani came when it was apparent<BR>the new nobility would be unable to persuade their own brethren to accept<BR>membership within the Second Imperium.&nbsp; Solomani and Vilani people merged<BR>during the 428 year period known as the Rule of Man.&nbsp; Over the generations,<BR>Solomani/Vilani culture became oneto the point where a distinction between the<BR>two races of Humaniti was no longer made on some worlds of the Imperium.<BR><BR>The Solomani of the Terran region of space despised what some of their people<BR>had becomeloosing themselves in an alien culture, and the Terran Confederation<BR>remained independent (albeit sympathetic) of their cousins of the Second<BR>Imperium.<BR><BR>But the men of the Terran Confederation could not prevent what would befall all<BR>of Humaniti at the hands of the new inexperienced Imperial rulers.<BR><BR>Over the four centuries of Solomani rule, technology subsided.&nbsp; Regions of the<BR>Imperium gradually lost touch with the rest of the whole.&nbsp; Border wars were<BR>dealt with by persons inexperienced with interstellar government.<BR><BR>The Second Imperium fell apart.<BR><BR>The Rule of Man was over.<BR><BR>And, the Long Night had begun.<BR><BR>For over 2000 years, the Imperium existed.&nbsp; Created and guided by Vilani for<BR>1600 years, the Solomani destroyed it in just over 400 years.<BR><BR>The following 2000 years, there was no Imperium.&nbsp; The Solomani government<BR>crumbled.&nbsp; Pirates fed on interstellar shipping like never before because of<BR>inept Solomani policy and enforcement.&nbsp; Interstellar trade eventually came to a<BR>standstill.&nbsp; The net growth of industrial output throughout the empire was<BR>negative.&nbsp; Factories closed faster than new ones could open.<BR><BR>This black time marked a pull-back from space by virtually all humans in<BR>Vilani-dominated space.&nbsp; The self-defeating nature of interstellar piracy<BR>eliminated itself as a major threateventually, there just were no cargo ships<BR>to prey upon.<BR><BR>What was left of Imperial interstellar trade was taken over by other<BR>star-faring races, although only on an intermittent basis.&nbsp; Aslan traders<BR>wandered through the rimward sectors of the former Rule of Man territory.<BR>Vargr traders visitedand sometimes raidedthe coreward sectors.<BR><BR>Some small human governments retained their starship technology and served<BR>their own worlds, but other Imperial planets fell into dark ages.&nbsp; Some were<BR>plagued by wars brought on by massive inflation, scarce food, nill purchasing<BR>power, and non-communication outside their solar systems.<BR><BR>The Imperium was plunged back in time, 4000 years, to the conditions the Vilani<BR>endured when originally growing the empire.<BR><BR>Eventually, though, light dawned on the Long Night.<BR><BR>Over this multi-generational period, worlds did reach out to contact their<BR>neighbors.&nbsp; Federations, Republics, and other small interstellar unions<BR>emerged.&nbsp; Interstellar trade within one union of star systems merged with new<BR>markets in other interstellar unions.<BR><BR>Small human governments emerged, connected themselves, grew bigger.<BR><BR>Until onethe Sylean Federationreached out its hand, provided by a man born of<BR>the union between a Solomani father and a Vilani mother, establishing the Third<BR>Imperium.<BR><BR>That was over 1000 years ago.&nbsp; By the Terran calendar, it was the year 4518<BR>AD.&nbsp; Cleon I declared himself emperor, established a new dating system (the one<BR>we use today), and a campaign was begun to recapture all of the member worlds<BR>lost after the fall of the Rule of Man.<BR><BR>Some 500 years passes, but the former Imperium was restoredand it grew, larger<BR>than ever before, thanks to the establishment of the Imperial Interstellar<BR>Scout Service and the aggressive efforts made by a long line of strong handed<BR>emperors.<BR><BR>Today, after 1105 years of membership in the Third Imperium, Vilani and<BR>Solomani are indistinguishable.&nbsp; In the middle classes, traditionally both<BR>geographically and socially mobile, the Vilani/Solomani distinction has become<BR>meaningless.&nbsp; Extensive intermarriage has blended the two, and the tendency,<BR>during the Rule of Man, for wealthy Vilani to adopt Solomani surnames has<BR>further made fine distinctions of lineage difficult to define and trace.<BR><BR>Initially, the Third Imperium was dominated by the Solomania result of the<BR>Solomani dominated Sylean Federation, and, to a lesser extent, the influence of<BR>the Solomani during the Rule of Man.&nbsp; But, today, most citizens of the empire<BR>refer to themselves as Imperials, members of the species known as Humani.<BR><BR>Terra is now a member-world of the Third Imperium, but the Terran Confederation<BR>still exists, as an independent empire, now calling itself the Solomani<BR>Confederation.&nbsp; When the term Solomani is used today to describe a being, it is<BR>understood as a term describing a human from this independent statenot an<BR>Imperial citizen.<BR><BR>The Solomani have moved their homeworld to a planet called Home, and there is<BR>much friction between the Third Imperium and the Solomani Confederation over<BR>the ownership of Earth.<BR><BR><BR><BR>The Ancients &amp; The Solomani Hypothesis.<BR><BR>Since first contact was made with the Vilani, the collective Solomani<BR>consciousness wondered at the impossibility of another human race developing on<BR>a planet other than Earth.&nbsp; There were many types of species within and beyond<BR>the Imperial borders, but the chance that an exact species had evolved on two<BR>different worlds was mind boggling.&nbsp; Scientists were stymied for over 2500<BR>years.<BR><BR>About 100 years after the establishment of the Third Imperium, during the<BR>growth and recapture period, investigations were made on Vland, homeworld of<BR>the Vilani and the former capital of the Ziru Sirka.&nbsp; The Imperial scientists<BR>found that it was an impossibility that the Vilani had evolved on Vland.&nbsp; The<BR>planets ecological system ensured that a human could not have come from the<BR>world.<BR><BR>In addition, Solomani archeologists discovered that pyramids, like the Egyptian<BR>structures on Earth, had been found on other planets in the Imperium.&nbsp; The<BR>Vilani had always known this, but it was not until the Solomani came to power<BR>that notice was taken of the galactic coincidence.<BR><BR>Similar constructions, like the stone heads of Easter Island and the strange<BR>circle of stones known as Stonehenge, were found as well, and it became clear<BR>that the ancient superstitions of aliens visiting Earth when Humaniti was in<BR>its infancy were truehowever shocking that may be.<BR><BR>Until the Third Imperium was established, there existed no satisfactory<BR>explanation for the many interfertile human races found on different worlds<BR>(many races other than the Solomani and the Vilani).&nbsp; Numerous theories on<BR>mans origins had been proposed, but none had gained complete acceptance.<BR><BR>Evidence was gathered, and a startling revelation was unleashed upon all<BR>Humaniti, Solomani and Vilani alike:&nbsp; An ancient, star-faring race of<BR>lizard-like people did indeed visit Earth before humans recorded history.<BR>Earth was indeed the birthplace of Humaniti.&nbsp; And the Ancients, as the ancient<BR>lizard-aliens have come to be known, took some unknown interest in the species<BR>and seeded humans throughout this section of the galaxywhere humans have<BR>adapted, and thrived, and thought themselves evolved on the worlds on which<BR>they were planted.<BR><BR>This theory was unleashed on the galaxy in 114, by the Imperial calendar, and<BR>it has become known as the Solomani Hypothesis.<BR><BR>Not much more has been discovered about the Ancients since that revelation,<BR>over a thousand years ago, but evidence of the Ancients existence has been<BR>found.<BR><BR>It is known that the Ancients wielded the power of extremely high<BR>technologytechnology much higher than any attained by any species known to<BR>exist today.&nbsp; The Ancients are actually credited with genetically uplifting<BR>speciesactually forcing evolution on a species artificially!&nbsp; It is even<BR>hypothesized that the alien, canine-descended Vargr are a product of Ancient<BR>genetic evolution.&nbsp; Vargr DNA measures, almost exactly, as DNA from various<BR>species of dogs on Terra (although a Vargr would never agree to that finding).<BR><BR>What little evidence of the Ancients that has been found indicates that the<BR>pre-historic aliens dominated this section of the galaxyand that they<BR>destroyed themselves in a genocidal interstellar war.&nbsp; For what purpose, it is<BR>not known.<BR><BR>The alien species known as the Droynesmall, winged, lizard-like aliens<BR>incapable of flight, devoid of an interstellar empire of their ownare thought<BR>to be the descendants of the Ancients today.&nbsp; It is commonly accepted that the<BR>Droyne are a race that is in the eons-long process of rebuilding itself after<BR>the largest holocaust history has ever known.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>This is the time, the universe, the culture that the game is set in.<BR><BR>The year is 1105, and your characters are citizens of the Third Imperium.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:49:12 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Standard Imperial Culture (or: nobles, rednecks, and bwaps, oh my!)<BR><BR>"Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?<BR><BR>&gt; I've seen a picture on a website somewhere detailing the different <BR>&gt; "cultural regions of the Imperium"[1]. If there are different cultural <BR>&gt; regions are they described somewhere?&nbsp; <BR><BR>The MT Library data describes some of them. Some of them have<BR>been (non canonically) expanded upon elsewhere such as my own<BR>efforts to portray the Darmine (not currently on a web page).<BR><BR>&gt; [1] Does anyone know where this map is from,<BR><BR>The inside back cover (page 102) of the MT Referees manual) <BR><BR>&gt; so that I might begin <BR>&gt; reading more original source materials and bring my Traveller knowledge <BR>&gt; up to par (and stop possibly bothering the list with inappropriate <BR>&gt; questions as is my apprehension)? :)&nbsp; <BR><BR>Canon says that during the occupation Terran Naval officers occupied <BR>key posts in the Vilani bureaucracy which was otherwise retained <BR>intact [History of the Imperium, from Imperium, p7]<BR><BR>Some minor races which were culturally repressed by the Vilani<BR>returned to their own culture in the Ramshackle Empire (see MT<BR>Library data entry on the Darmine for example).<BR>Canon establishes that the pocket empires of the minor races<BR>were conquered by 175 in the Pacification campaigns.<BR><BR>See the MT Ref's Manual p 102 "Cultural Regions of the Imperium"<BR>Regions which historically developed independent cultures and which<BR>have retained their cultural identity under the Imperium"<BR><BR>Vland - 5 subsectors in Vland<BR>Antares - 3 subsectors in Antares<BR>Lancia - 5 subsectors, 3 in Gushmege, 1 each in Corridor &amp; Dagudahaag<BR>Sylea - 8 subsectors, 6 in Core &amp; 2 in Fornast<BR>Illelish - 4 subsectors in Ilelish<BR>Darmine - 4 subsectors in Zarushagar<BR>Vega - 2 subsectors in Solomani Rim<BR><BR>Vland is a major race<BR>Antares seems to be semiautonomous and just a culture<BR>Lancia is a cultural offshoot of Vland<BR>Sylea is a minor human race and a culture<BR>Illelish is a culture<BR>Darmine is a minor human race<BR>Vega is a minor non human race <BR>[all from MT]<BR><BR>_If_ you chose to accept the map as a definitive list of<BR>large (multiple subsectors) cultural regions in the Imperium)<BR>you are still free to create smaller cultural regions, non<BR>contiguous cultural regions, cultures without a specifically<BR>defined territory (such as the Rom, or gypsies), etc.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:59:05 -0500<BR>From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hello Folks,<BR>&gt; Somehow, I suspect that my chances of getting my hands on Deneb via DGP's<BR>&gt; stuff is vanishingly small.&nbsp; Question for Loren:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Since it seems that DPG's stuff is off limits for publication, will SJGames<BR>&gt; publish a *new* Deneb sector?<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>The sector data that DGP used is located in the Missouri Archives.&nbsp; Several of these sectors are known to be flawed, but AFAIK Deneb wasn't one of them.&nbsp; Furthermore, this data matches* the maps from 'Atlas of the Imperium,' a canonical GDW-published product (to be included in FFE009, BTW).&nbsp; On the message boards at farfuture.net Marc has expressed a desire to clean up &amp; regularize this (Atlas/archive) data for publication as part of T5.<BR><BR>None of which is to say that SJG won't publish a version of Deneb different from DGP or the theoretical T5, but I'd imagine it would still be based at very least on 'Atlas of the Imperium.'<BR><BR>Trent<BR><BR>*I'm not entirely sure which came first, the maps or the UWPs.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:07:11 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>Mr. Whipsnade presents the Ether with:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ahhh...&nbsp; A sunny day in the bleachers.&nbsp; Two dogs with 'slaw and a cold<BR>&gt;beer.&nbsp; Peanuts.&nbsp; Keeping your own box score on the program.&nbsp; The organ<BR>&gt;playing "Charge" when there's a man on second and another at bat.<BR>&gt;Rally caps.&nbsp; Cheese in the kitchen and a yakker for a kudo.&nbsp; Chin music.&nbsp; A<BR>&gt;ball hit so far there "shoulda been a stewardess on it".&nbsp; The Olde Towne<BR>&gt;Team taking their usual September swoon.&nbsp; 1918 and counting...<BR><BR>Ahh...that is truly the spirit of Baseball.&nbsp; It's just not "Baseball" with <BR>noodles served in the stands, and Coaches politely disagreeing with the <BR>Umpires.<BR>The technique may be good, but the "proper" spirit just isn't there....<BR><BR>Some folks hold the attitude that even in losing, their team is the "more <BR>correct" team.<BR><BR>ObTrav:&nbsp; Your gallant band of Adventurers (in between Ethically Challenged <BR>Merchant jobs), are hired as security for the Sub-Sector finals.<BR>It's the two big rivals and the blood is running hot.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one.<BR>http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:20:34 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR>&nbsp; Not to sound like I wanted Deneb to be redone per se &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; If the Data<BR>on the Deneb sector can be reproduced without running afoul of DGP, I'm all<BR>for it.&nbsp; It is just a little frustrating when you look at the X-boat routes<BR>ending at the edge of Spinward Marches and don't know what lies beyond.<BR>I've got the Survey book for T4, so the positions of stars is available for<BR>much of the Imperium.&nbsp; What I don't have is the Corridor or Deneb Sectors...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:22:32 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER<BR><BR>There is a good example of VR combat sports in the anthology&nbsp; "Warriors of <BR>Blood and Dream", edited by the Late Master Roger Zelazny.<BR>The story is called "True Grits", by Jack Haldeman II.<BR><BR>VR combat allowed full contact, no pads Karate fights "to the death."<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>&nbsp; http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else <BR>wants `em.<BR>"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend<BR>that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,<BR>or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY<BR>CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:25:19 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Strange sports<BR><BR>&gt;Problem with a Carribean League is most of the people down there, being <BR>&gt;remnants<BR>&gt;of the Vilin^H^H^H^H British Empire, play the much better summer game of<BR>&gt;Cricket...A refined game for refined people don'cher know? A lot less frenzied<BR>&gt;running about and more time to drink beer...<BR><BR>I don't pretend to understand Cricket, but the bats are cool.<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/&nbsp; Opinions Mine!<BR>"Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all<BR>offense and defense." -- Giacomo diGrasse, 1570<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:27:13 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Traveller Sports<BR><BR>Alan Bradley puts into the Ether:<BR>&gt;The K'kree play Rugby. A lot.<BR><BR>They also like a game much like Polo.<BR>Just don't ask what they are using for the ball.<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:08:34 -0500<BR>From: Christopher Thrash &lt;thrash@io.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:01:22 +0100<BR>&gt;From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Christopher Thrash writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;The full citation reads:<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;"Ranking above duke/duchess are two levels not reflected in social<BR>&gt;&gt;standing: prince/princess or king/queen are titles used by actual rulers of<BR>&gt;&gt;worlds. The title of emperor/empress is used by the ruler of an empire of<BR>&gt;&gt;several worlds."<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;Book 3, p. 22 (1977)<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;In other words:<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;Social&nbsp; &nbsp; Title<BR>&gt;&gt;(G)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Prince/Princess or King/Queen<BR>&gt;&gt;(H)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Emperor/Empress&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;It is clear from context that this system was intended for what we would<BR>&gt;&gt;now consider minor pocket empires, not the Third Imperium of the Official<BR>&gt;&gt;Traveller Universe (which didn't exist at this point).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;What is clear is that social level A-F were planetary titles. The Duke of<BR>Alpha<BR>&gt;Continent, not the Duke of Regina.<BR><BR>...in a setting where the highest level of interstellar state is "an empire<BR>of several worlds," not 11,000. The creation of the Official Traveller<BR>Universe changed several&nbsp; assumptions underlying the rules: the social<BR>structure was stretched to accommodate the vastly increased scope of the<BR>setting. There is nothing inherently contradictory about this.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;The revisions of 1981-2, including the article in Supp. 11, explicitly<BR>&gt;&gt;change this picture:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;It changed it all right (which is what I said in the first place), but it<BR>&gt;didn't consider the consequences of the change. I don't know how to put more<BR>&gt;clearly than I already did: By changing social level A-F from planetary to<BR>&gt;interstellar nobility, the social level system lost an entire slice of<BR>society.<BR>&gt;And IMO a very important slice, as witness the fact that for almost 20 years<BR>&gt;Traveller authors have described and used Imperial nobles as having powers<BR>more<BR>&gt;or less equivalent to their 17th or 18th Century European namesakes.<BR><BR>The social levels B-F were changed from planetary nobility in a setting of<BR>pocket empires, to interstellar nobility in an empire spanning thousands of<BR>worlds. Arguably, they became relatively *less* powerful, not more so.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;"At the discretion of the referee, a noble may have some ancestral lands or<BR>&gt;&gt;fiefs, and may actually have some ruling power." <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;Book 1, p. 9 (1981)<BR><BR>This is the key point: the amount of real power (as opposed to presumed<BR>social precedence) associated with player character noble titles is set at<BR>the sole discretion of the referee.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;The kicker, and the clue that you are dealing with no ordinary<BR>&gt;&gt;noble, is the suffix or fief used in the style of address.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Yes, but Traveller does not _treat_ them as extraordinary nobles. The CGS<BR>hands<BR>&gt;out noble titles to every Tom, Dick, and Horatio in the navy with a little<BR>dice<BR>&gt;luck and to several other careers too. Imperial nobles bum around the<BR>universe<BR>&gt;with not a care in the world and often no money either. <BR><BR>Those are titles of achievement, which (once again, *explicitly*)<BR>"customarily carry no special reward beyond the noble title itself." (Supp.<BR>11, p. 35) <BR><BR>Canon does make distinctions among nobles, based on real power: <BR><BR>"The Baronet obviously has much power and influence, and should be treated<BR>with great care and caution." (Adv. 11, p. 48) Baronet Rosa Demetriou's<BR>connections and antecedents were described in detail on preceeding pages<BR>(ibid., pp. 45-48). Similarly, Marc hault-Oberlindes, Baron Feri, and<BR>Marquis Leonard Bolden-Tukera of Aramis (TTA, p. 22) have their power bases<BR>clearly identified, and are presented as forces to be respected. <BR><BR>Contrast this with Professor Sir Gnetus Jerrold Vicervis (Adv. 2, p. 37)<BR>about whom no such caution is offered. His title is presumably for either<BR>achievement in science, or his position as research station director; in<BR>any case, it carries no other real power. Sergei hault-Oberlindes, Marc's<BR>son, winds up in jail for assaulting a cop (JTAS #1, p. 13) and eventually<BR>commands the flagship of the Oberlindes Line (AHL rules booklet, pp.<BR>41-43), but is apparently accorded no special deference.<BR><BR>Finally, I draw your attention to Charles de Batz-Castelmore, Monsieur<BR>d'Artagnan, whose literary namesake left to make his fortune in Paris with<BR>just a broken-down horse, his father's sword, and a letter of introduction.<BR>There have certainly been periods of history (or heroic fiction, at any<BR>rate) where noble titles did not automatically confer either great wealth<BR>or great power.<BR><BR>I think it just as likely that Travellers -- the tiny fraction of the total<BR>Imperium involved in interstellar affairs, on any level -- look down on all<BR>purely local, world-bound citizens as "wogs". Player character social<BR>status would therefore represent _Imperial_ status, with on-world status<BR>ignored as essentially irrelevant, much the way imperialists of the<BR>18th-19th century condescended to local potentates: an outward show of<BR>respect, with little substance. Important local figures would have a place<BR>in the Imperial hierarchy (titles for service), however, which would have<BR>to be respected. <BR><BR>This has the advantage of explaining another Traveller anomoly: bands of<BR>tatty PC's are hired for important missions simply because they are<BR>Travellers ("Our kind -- can't trust the locals to do a proper job, don't<BR>you know."); call it "the Travellers' Burden." Imperial noble status,<BR>noblesse oblige, and code of honor are merely the epitome of this system.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:31:01 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Strange sports<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 21:25, Mark Urbin wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;Problem with a Carribean League is most of the people down there, being <BR>&gt; &gt;remnants<BR>&gt; &gt;of the Vilin^H^H^H^H British Empire, play the much better summer game of<BR>&gt; &gt;Cricket...A refined game for refined people don'cher know? A lot less frenzied<BR>&gt; &gt;running about and more time to drink beer...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I don't pretend to understand Cricket, but the bats are cool.<BR><BR>A funny thing - most of my friends are cricket fans, with only the most minimal <BR>knowledge of baseball, but they all own baseball bats, many those junior 3/4 <BR>size types.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:38:56 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>At 4:32 PM +1100 2/22/01, Timothy Little wrote:<BR>&gt;Doug C. wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Maybe I'm missing something... (I frequently do...)<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Fuel is LHyd...<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Water is H2O...<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Ignoring atomic wieghts/volumes (of which i know less than nothing)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;That's the thing -- water molecules pack closer together than hydrogen<BR>&gt;molecules.&nbsp; Atoms aren't hard balls that take up a fixed amount of<BR>&gt;space, and molecules aren't really solid shapes either.<BR><BR>Actually, to a first approximation, molecules tend to take up about <BR>the same amount of space.&nbsp; However, the first approximation is off <BR>for hydrogen.<BR><BR>If you want to store the most hydrogen, I tend to go with as big a <BR>hydrocarbon as you can handle.&nbsp; Of course eventualy you get into a <BR>solid.&nbsp; But even there larger molecules will waste less space on void <BR>spaces....<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3731<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, February 23 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3732<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:20:28 -0700<BR>Re: Introduction to Traveller<BR>Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>Re: Deep Space Jumps<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: The spirit of the game<BR>RE: Don't run...<BR>RE: What could go wrong?<BR>Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR>Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?&nbsp; IYTU?<BR>Re: Deep Space Jumps<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:19:05 +0000<BR>From: "Doug C." &lt;dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR><BR>Hal,<BR><BR>If you want I'm sure I can scan the data/ maps and email them to you<BR>For the data check out<BR>http://traveller.mu.org/archive/General/sector.dgp/CORRIDOR<BR>http://traveller.mu.org/archive/General/sector.dgp/DENEB<BR><BR>Doug :-)<BR><BR>&gt; hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Hello Folks,<BR>&gt; &gt; Somehow, I suspect that my chances of getting my hands on Deneb via DGP's<BR>&gt; &gt; stuff is vanishingly small.&nbsp; Question for Loren:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Since it seems that DPG's stuff is off limits for publication, will SJGames<BR>&gt; &gt; publish a *new* Deneb sector?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:20:28 -0700<BR>From: "A. Batishko" &lt;abatish@utah-inter.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:20:28 -0700<BR><BR>Excellent. That will do quite nicely. Thanks for the help.<BR><BR>Andrew<BR><BR>&gt; From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Introduction to Traveller<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; "A. Batishko" wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; I don't live anywhere near the guy, so I need to either e-mail him<BR>&gt; &gt; something, or give him a url he can check out...<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Andrew<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Andrew,<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Will this help you?<BR><BR>&lt;thwack&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:51:33 -0600<BR>From: William Barnett-Lewis &lt;wlewis@mailbag.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Introduction to Traveller<BR><BR>Oh my little stars and comets... (Double points to those who remember where<BR>that came from... :)<BR><BR>Ken, <BR><BR>Thank you.<BR><BR><BR>William <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:04:56 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 19:52, hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Hello Folks,<BR>&gt; Somehow, I suspect that my chances of getting my hands on Deneb via DGP's<BR>&gt; stuff is vanishingly small.&nbsp; Question for Loren:<BR><BR>This is the biggest reason why I think that the DGP material should be <BR>removed from the body of Traveller canon (sooner rather than later).<BR><BR>&gt; Since it seems that DPG's stuff is off limits for publication, will SJGames<BR>&gt; publish a *new* Deneb sector?<BR><BR>Large portions of Deneb were also covered in the Regency Sourcebook for <BR>TNE, which is somewhat easier to get hold of than the DGP material.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:04:56 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 19:04, Doug C. wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I truly hope not!<BR>&gt; I for one have been using the excellent DGP Deneb material for CT for<BR>&gt; MANY.... years.<BR><BR>I truly hope they do. The sooner the darn DGP copyright "problem" is <BR>solved the better.<BR><BR>&gt; My current campaign uses the DGP material for Deneb/Corridor/Trojan<BR>&gt; reach &amp; Reft sectors. The material without the MT/Rebellion adjustments<BR>&gt; of course, as my current campaign date is 1112<BR><BR>Yes, it can be quite a shock when the Traveller Canon Police (TCP) burst <BR>down your door brandishing fully automatic penguins and demand you <BR>hand over all your non-canon material :*&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:04:56 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 10:40, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;It being in French was just an affectation of the English upper classes.<BR><BR>&gt; Remember that the English upper classes came from France -- Norman<BR>&gt; Conquest, 1066, and all that.&nbsp; (Well, actually, they came from Scandinavia by<BR>&gt; way of a long stopover in Normandy where they learned French, became<BR>&gt; Christians, and stopped doing the bloody eagle.)&nbsp; Anyway, the English upper<BR>&gt; classes spoke and wrote in French until about Elizabethan times. Some of them<BR>&gt; still do, I understand.<BR><BR>Have you ever listened to Shoolboy French, it rivals some of the obscure <BR>American Indian languages for security during wartime :*&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:04:56 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 20:59, trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; The sector data that DGP used is located in the Missouri Archives.&nbsp; Several of<BR>&gt; these sectors are known to be flawed, but AFAIK Deneb wasn't one of them. <BR>&gt; Furthermore, this data matches* the maps from 'Atlas of the Imperium,' a<BR>&gt; canonical GDW-published product (to be included in FFE009, BTW).&nbsp; On the<BR>&gt; message boards at farfuture.net Marc has expressed a desire to clean up &amp;<BR>&gt; regularize this (Atlas/archive) data for publication as part of T5.<BR><BR>Yes, but that only gets you the raw UWPs.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:35:50 -0500<BR>From: Thom Jones-Low &lt;tjoneslo@together.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:09:49 +1100<BR>&gt; From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Thom Jones-Low wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Do you know one (or more) good introductory reference websites<BR>&gt; &gt; for General Relativity?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Not offhand.&nbsp; The sci.physics.relativity FAQ<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; http://www.public.iastate.edu/~physics/sci.physics/faq/relativity.html<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; has some references, but they are all to books or journal articles.<BR>&gt; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The speed is relative (in theory) to the ship in the other<BR>&gt; &gt; system who is going to try and jump back to catch you before you<BR>&gt; &gt; leave.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Does that mean that if no such ship exists, then there is no<BR>&gt; tearing-up of jump space?&nbsp; And that if some ship, somewhere, is<BR>&gt; travelling at 1000 km/s then every ship using reactionless thrusters<BR>&gt; tears jumpspace to shreds across a whole sector?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; stellar relative motion is on the order of 10 km/s (IIRC),<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Stars have relative speeds of up to 200 km/s, according to a survey of<BR>&gt; stellar proper motions about the Sun.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I'm sure you're already aware that you can get time travel without<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; reactionless thrusters.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Yes. The task of accelerating a to 1% the speed of light<BR>&gt; &gt; without the use of reactionless thrusters is very much harder<BR>&gt; &gt; however.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; This isn't necessary.&nbsp; With jump-4 engines, 0.15% of c will suffice.<BR>&gt; If you have jump-6 engines available, 0.1% of c will do.&nbsp; In fact, a<BR>&gt; combination of planetary orbits and stellar proper motions may well<BR>&gt; suffice by itself without resorting to any sort of thrusters.<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; The theory is (was) based upon two assumptions. First the planetary<BR>motion was up to 50 km/s, and stellar relative motion was similar, and<BR>the velocity of starships would not usually need to be much higher<BR>either, giving the usually velocity of a given starship compared to any<BR>other object in the local stellar space of up to 300 km/s. Second, the<BR>effects of relativity would not begin to be apparent until the relative<BR>velocity reached 1% or 2% of the speed of light (3,000 km/s to 6,000<BR>km/s). <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; The simple fact of having a velocity did nothing to jumpspace, but<BR>continually accelerating a starship (or other mass) to 10 times the<BR>normal use velocity, thus dumping the large quantity of energy required<BR>to satisfy the Conservation of Momentum (and other laws of physics) into<BR>jumpspace, would affect it.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; However, as you have pointed out and I have discovered, the general use<BR>velocity of starships may be as high as 1000 km/s without any<BR>extraordinary effort and the relativity effects do begin to occur at 500<BR>km/s. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; This can still work, if you are willing accept some occasional<BR>weirdness. And more handwaves on the nature of jumpspace, like assuming<BR>that jumpspace only connects those systems with a low relative velocity<BR>(say 50-75 km/s). It is Canon that jumpspace does not connect all star<BR>systems after all. But not with the velocity/accleration cap. <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; The classic example of the abuse of relativity and FTL is the example I<BR>presented above: Ship A jumps from System 1 to System 2, where Ship B is<BR>waiting and moving at high relative velocity to Ship A. Ship B then<BR>jumps back to System 1 and arrives before Ship A leaves. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Even if Ship A arrives with zero relative velocity to Ship B, if Ship B<BR>can accelerate to a high enough relative velocity to ship A, Ship B can<BR>then still jump back and catch Ship A before it leaves System 1.<BR>Correct?&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; In Traveller, using Jump 3, achieving the requisite velocity takes<BR>about 4.8 hours at 6G (easily achievable by most warships). This adds an<BR>interesting twist to strategy. You no longer want to use long jumps when<BR>you are jumping into a system where you expect combat. Or if not<BR>possible, you need to delay the enemy forces long enough so they can't<BR>jump out and surprise your forces. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; This would make a really twisted TCS variant but modeling it would<BR>require a computer to keep track of it all. <BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thomas Jones-Low<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; tjoneslo@together.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:12:56 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>David P. Summers wrote:<BR>&gt; If you want to store the most hydrogen, I tend to go with as big a <BR>&gt; hydrocarbon as you can handle.<BR><BR>The biggest one I could find offhand (hexadecane, or cetane), has a<BR>hydrogen density of 116 kg/m^3 (1.62 ton/dton).&nbsp; Concentrated ammonia<BR>solution has the same hydrogen density, but more useful "waste"<BR>products.&nbsp; Liquid ammonia has a hydrogen density of 120 kg/m^3 -- the<BR>best H density I could find for any reasonable common compound.<BR><BR>Water has hydrogen density of 112 kg/m^2, and the small difference in<BR>hydrogen density is probably far outweighed by the ease of obtaining<BR>it and handling it, and its usefulness in other respects.<BR><BR><BR>Unfortunately I lost the original post, but someone commented that<BR>such fuel would be useful only for making multiple jumps.&nbsp; I don't<BR>think so.&nbsp; I see two possibilities:<BR><BR>1) You need all the fuel at once to enter jumpspace, and trivial<BR>amounts to none while in jump.&nbsp; This means that the ship need not<BR>store its fuel while in jump.&nbsp; Costs are greatly reduced since you<BR>don't need large tanks capable of long-term cryogenic storage of LH2,<BR>and less of the ship's volume is taken up by the tanks.<BR><BR>2) Most of the hydrogen goes into maintaining the jump bubble.&nbsp; In<BR>this case, you can refine the fuel as you go, and again save<BR>significant space and cost by not needing long-term cryogenic storage<BR>of LH2.&nbsp; In this case though, you still need storage tanks for H2O or<BR>whatever.<BR>&nbsp; You would probably still have a small reserve tank of LH2 to smooth<BR>out fluctuations in supply from the fuel proessors, and of course at<BR>least one or two backup processors.&nbsp; One dton of fuel processor<BR>including power plant slice etc. can output 1300 dtons of fuel over<BR>the course of the week in jump.<BR><BR><BR>Either way, you save a lot by using unrefined fuel instead of LH2.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:25:51 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Ahh...that is truly the spirit of Baseball.&nbsp; It's just not<BR>"Baseball" with noodles served in the stands, and Coaches politely <BR>disagreeing with the Umpires.&nbsp; The technique may be good, but the "proper" <BR>spirit just isn't there....<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Some folks hold the attitude that even in losing, their team is the <BR>"more correct" team."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Urbin,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I have been to a half dozen games in Japan and found the fans to be <BR>just as spirited as the ones in Fenway.&nbsp; You'd like it very much.&nbsp; They <BR>simply express their fervor differently.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; You should see the home made banners, drum and horns groups, and abuse <BR>heape on the umps!&nbsp; The game is more like the National League game, even <BR>with their use of the DH.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; At least their players don't spit on the umps.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As for a "correct team", the Sox have always been more correct than <BR>those dratted Yankees and all the Series they bought.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:17:33 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Don't run...<BR><BR>Kurt Feltenberger wrote :<BR>&gt; At 06:27 PM 02/22/2001 +1300, you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;Tod Glenn wrote :<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Frequently an army sniper, equiped with a M21 with<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; STANO sight and sionics supressor was dropped, with his<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ^^^^^^<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; team, into a target rich environment just as night fell.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;An interesting misprint in the context of the TML...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Not a misprint.&nbsp; Sionics was (is still?) a producer of <BR>&gt; suppressors for weapons.<BR><BR>Oh, sorry, I thought it was meant to say "sonics".<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:29:12 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>I wrote:<BR>&gt;Better yet, the noise is heard from the ventilation system, but cannot<BR>&gt;be located because it is not coming from any ventilation equipment. It<BR>&gt;is being transmitted through a mechanical connection to the ventialtion<BR><BR>&gt;system in a inaccessable location and is amplified and echoed by the<BR>&gt;ductwork material and configuration.&nbsp; The faulty part sounds very<BR>&gt;different in the room it is in.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;This should drive the party nuts trying to find the cause.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Charles H<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;P.S.&nbsp; Repair solution: repair the malfunctioning part of the different<BR>&gt;system, add more supports and tiedowns to the ventilation ducts.<BR><BR>Bruce Replied:<BR>&gt;Gee! WHY does that sound so realistic, with a detailed repair<BR>diagnosis?&nbsp; Must<BR>&gt;have driven you NUTS 'till you found it, Charles...<BR><BR>Actually I created it ; )<BR>Running compressed air lines in manufacturing building.&nbsp; The<BR>air-compressor had a sticky valve which caused a little noise above the<BR>normal (which you could not tell at the compressor as they are very<BR>noisy). Also various noises of the air compressor were transmitted<BR>through the piping.&nbsp; The air line was held in place at appropreate<BR>intervals rubber coated pipe clamps, but I had no place to locate a<BR>clamp as I got near the air-conditioning duct, so I attached a rigid<BR>clamp between the airline and the thin sheet metal hanger to<BR>air-conditioning duct.&nbsp; That duct work did not extend to my office so I<BR>was not worried about it. But it drove the people in the ajoining<BR>offices nuts.&nbsp; None of the noises transmitted through the pipe to the<BR>duct work sounded anything like and air compressor. After several calls<BR>to the air-conditioning service people, the noise disappeared as<BR>mysteriously as it had appeared.(I moved the mounting location)<BR><BR>Charles<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:59:18 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR><BR>I did.<BR><BR>http://www.loc.gov/copyright/&nbsp;&nbsp; For US copyright law<BR>http://www.uspto.gov&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; For Trademark law<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>Peter Newman wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt; wrote<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; before you accept<BR>&gt; &gt; as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Bloo could you suggest an appropriate source I might use<BR>&gt; to look up the factualness of the above assertion? :)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:16:23 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?&nbsp; IYTU?<BR><BR>Rob Davenport wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?<BR>&gt;IYTU?<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt;(OK, so there ended up being 14 actual questions, but I guess all but<BR>&gt;the first are somewhat rhetorical.)<BR><BR>Inresponse to all your questions.&nbsp; YES<BR><BR>This is one place I like to compair the Imperium to the US (this should<BR>apply to many parts of the world, or the world in general).&nbsp; There is a<BR>major overriding culture that can be seen on ALL imperial worlds (lets<BR>call it the "standard imperial culture").&nbsp; The level that this culture<BR>is seen on a world varies between just the portmaster at a Class E<BR>starport to entire worlds. The backwaters, underdeveloped, and/or low<BR>tech worlds tend to show the least "standard imperial culture", while<BR>the high tech, well developed, heavily traveled worlds tend to show the<BR>most.&nbsp; The "standard imperial culture" is maintained by the Nobles, news<BR>media, x-boat, etc.<BR><BR>In addition to the "standard imperial culture", there are major regional<BR>cultures, normally based around pre-Imperial empires (i.e. Vilani,<BR>solamani, vegan, etc) (see any officially published contact articles and<BR>many unofficial). But these major regional cultures may also show up in<BR>unlikely places (several megacorps are of Vilani origin and may have<BR>spread and maintained the Vilani culture elsewhere).<BR><BR>There will be cultures that are entirely planet bound. those that wanted<BR>to maintain thier culture or a faxsimale there of may have moved to a<BR>location that would limit intrusion by other cultures (mostly<BR>backwaters). there will be conclaves of differing cultures on the major<BR>worlds (example any major US city has districts that have transplanted<BR>cultures from around the world, this should be true of most major cities<BR>around the world)<BR><BR>For examples, I would look at what ever region you live compair it to<BR>national culture, as seen on TV and other media. And then look at what<BR>ever backwater is near you, and then look at the big cities near you.<BR>Most if not all big cities or metropolitan areas have enclaves inwhich<BR>the majority of the inhabitants do not speak the national language,<BR>these enclaves will have a different culture than the majority of the<BR>surrounding area.<BR><BR>For example, the area that I live in has a mixture of US, Southern, and<BR>Midwest cultures, plus I know of several enclaves of Mexican, Lao, and<BR>Vietnamese.&nbsp; And I know that I have not even looked for others.<BR><BR>Charles H<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:28:46 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps<BR><BR>Thom Jones-Low wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; And more handwaves on the nature of jumpspace, like assuming that<BR>&gt; jumpspace only connects those systems with a low relative velocity<BR>&gt; (say 50-75 km/s). It is Canon that jumpspace does not connect all<BR>&gt; star systems after all.<BR><BR>I'd never realised that.&nbsp; Then, I don't have all the published<BR>material either.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Even if Ship A arrives with zero relative velocity to Ship B, if Ship B<BR>&gt; can accelerate to a high enough relative velocity to ship A, Ship B can<BR>&gt; then still jump back and catch Ship A before it leaves System 1.<BR>&gt; Correct?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Yes.&nbsp; The classic causilty-breaker.<BR><BR>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; In Traveller, using Jump 3, achieving the requisite velocity takes<BR>&gt; about 4.8 hours at 6G (easily achievable by most warships). This adds an<BR>&gt; interesting twist to strategy. You no longer want to use long jumps when<BR>&gt; you are jumping into a system where you expect combat. Or if not<BR>&gt; possible, you need to delay the enemy forces long enough so they can't<BR>&gt; jump out and surprise your forces. <BR><BR>It's worse than that -- by a series of jumps, anyone with a starship<BR>and reasonable thrusters can travel back in time any amount they like,<BR>up to about 130 weeks backwards per 16 weeks of shipboard time with 2G<BR>thrusters.&nbsp; The only limit on the ratio is the need to slow down to<BR>refuel between jumps.&nbsp; The ship would reach 0.29c.<BR><BR>A special purpose super-Xboat ship could get up to 540 weeks into the<BR>past of its own departure point for 7 weeks of ship time after<BR>reaching 0.4c.<BR><BR>If you put a speed cap of 0.01c on thruster use, it drops to about a<BR>4:1 ratio of time-travel/shipboard time (4.8 weeks into the past for<BR>1.2 weeks of ship time).<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:52:15 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:18:53 +0000<BR>&gt; From: "Doug C." &lt;dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Actually you don't really have a democracy...<BR><BR>Not in the strict usage championed by Leonard but a government<BR>that behaves in the manner of governments that we mostly refer to<BR>in common usage as democracies. (Ie th USA, UK, France, etc.)<BR><BR>&gt; A weirdly nor quite bi-cameral parlimentary republic...sort of... kind<BR>&gt; of reminds one of the Electoral college, eh?<BR><BR>Please don't be nasty. :-)<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I would suggest that electing a single representative per world, and<BR>&gt; then giving population based voting rights is addresses neither the<BR>&gt; concerns of the hi or Lo-Pop worlds. Functionally, one or two Hi-Pop<BR>&gt; systems WILL control the legislature, regardless of a geographical vote.<BR><BR>It takes a majority in plain terms (per rep) as well as a majority in terms<BR>of represented sophonts to get anything through in my scheme. Perhaps<BR>I didn't make that clear. Yes Hi-pop worlds will have the greatest&nbsp; power<BR>per planet but smaller planets that band together can offset that greatly.<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; A better alternative would be a bi-cameral house;&nbsp; Lower House w<BR>&gt; population based representation, and an upper house (the house of 'sober<BR>&gt; 2nd thought') would be geographically based.<BR><BR>But bi-cameral has been done to death. My Idea is to work both concepts<BR>into a single body thereby cutting the required support staff in half at<BR>least.<BR>Of additional merit is the fact that my setup is quite gridlocky enough<BR>without the additional stall factor of an additional chamber.<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Something along the lines of the Canadian (Commons &amp; Senate) or British<BR>&gt; (Commons and Lords) Parliaments would be workable, especially if you are<BR>&gt; leaning toward a constitutional monarchy.&nbsp;&nbsp; The Lords could be used to<BR>&gt; give the existing Nobles something to do...<BR><BR>I was kind of looking at the nobles for the Judiciary (assuming the<BR>revolution<BR>would leave some vestige of respectability in the feudal institutions.)<BR>Strip<BR>the Barons of their financial holdings (or let them keep the loot and give<BR>up<BR>the title.) give them a generous salary and powdered wigs and you could<BR>wind up with a quite effective (and *perhaps* unbiased) court system.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 02:10:35 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt; On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:25:57 -0800, hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;Due to travel times involved a representative's term lasts untill<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;his/her/it's replacement arrives. Special elections to replace<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;reps who have left office early due to death, resignation,<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;or election to higher parliaments will be held with the next<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;regular election. leaving some seats open for a year or so.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;In an effort to forestall such an event happening, as a lot of<BR>legislation<BR>&gt; &gt;could be passed in that year, a delegation is sent, not just a<BR>&gt; &gt;representative.&nbsp; Said Delegation has the Senator plus his runner up.&nbsp; By<BR>&gt; &gt;law, said runner up may not be in the same vicinity as the<BR>Representative.<BR>&gt; &gt;Assassination aside, this should help keep a planet represented at all<BR>times.<BR><BR>By my original scheme a world would actually have seven reps elected<BR>one each year with a 7 year term. Perhaps the vote of an unseated or<BR>incapacitated representative could be determined by majority vote of<BR>the remaining reps from that world?<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 03:58:45 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>The Orcrist Firearms Foundry (a division of the Spinward Marches<BR>Entertainment Group) proudly announces the first in a series of<BR>cutting edge TL 10 small arms: The 20 mm Ghost.<BR><BR>This weapon is intended for the sniper in a mid to low tech<BR>environment. With it's Impressive range and complete<BR>sound and flash suppression it can deal death undetected<BR>from afar. SMEG/OFF welcomes your coments and wishes<BR>to be your small arms vendor of choice.<BR><BR>Ammo is a 19.99x15mm straight conventional round<BR>Length=35mm Weight=38g Ea=2448joules BLa=10cm<BR>Price per round: Ball=Cr1.52 DS=Cr3.04 HE=Cr3.04 HEAP=Cr4.56<BR><BR>Heavy barrel Length=23cm Weight=.69Kg Price=Cr276 E= 4039joules<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Damage: Ball/DS=4 HE/HEAP=8<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Penetration: Ball=2-3-nil DS=1-2-3 HE=nil HEAP=2-2-2<BR>Light self loading SA receiver Length=20cm Weight=2.448Kg Price=Cr489.60<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; ROF=SA Recoil mod=.95<BR>Wooden stock Length=25cm Weight=1Kg Price=Cr25<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Short range: Ball=127m DS=152m HE/HEAP=95m<BR>10 round box magazine Weight(empty)=.319Kg (loaded)=.699Kg Price(empty)=Cr10<BR>Dual Optic/Laser sights Weight=.6Kg Price=Cr450<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Short range: Ball=146m DS=175m HE/HEAP=109m<BR>Bipod Weight=2.012Kg Price=Cr70.20 Recoil mod=.5<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Short range: Ball= 190m DS=228m HE/HEAP=142m<BR>Sound suppressor Length=41cm Weight=1.025Kg Price=Cr205<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Counts as fully silenced<BR>Long flash suppressor Length=28cm Weight=.28Kg Price=Cr28<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Flash suppressed in all situations<BR>Totals Length=137cm Weight(empty)=8.055Kg (loaded)=8.754Kg Price=Cr1529.80<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Bulk=9 Recoil(without bipod)=3 (with bipod)=1<BR><BR>Designer notes.<BR><BR>Designed using FFS1.<BR><BR>I rated the Ammunition as conventional rather then mass produced military<BR>on the theory that even though it's a military weapon it wouldn't see<BR>general<BR>service.<BR><BR>In the range calulation I substituted Ea for E as otherwise the range<BR>gets a double boost due to barrel length (which doesn't make sense<BR>to me.)<BR><BR>The original version of this design had a bolt action in order to<BR>gain the extra few meters range but it seems more usefull to me<BR>to have the SA fire rate. The bipod is included mostly because I<BR>don't see a weapon this unwieldy being particularly aimable<BR>without one (the range and recoil absorption is a bonus.)<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:12:50 +0200<BR>From: Niko Mikkanen &lt;niko.mikkanen@capslock.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>Hi all. I'm a newbie here, but it seems a good time to open my mouth a<BR>little...<BR><BR>DaveShayne wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Penetration: Ball=2-3-nil DS=1-2-3 HE=nil HEAP=2-2-2<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Counts as fully silenced<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The original version of this design had a bolt action in order to<BR>&gt; gain the extra few meters range but it seems more usefull to me<BR>&gt; to have the SA fire rate. The bipod is included mostly because I<BR>&gt; don't see a weapon this unwieldy being particularly aimable<BR>&gt; without one (the range and recoil absorption is a bonus.)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; David Shayne<BR><BR>Umm, ok, here's the beef: How do you make the weapon hit anything on<BR>long range, if it's subsonic? And how do you make it completely silent,<BR>if it's supersonic: there's always going to be the crack of the sound<BR>barrier breaking.<BR><BR>Also, I'm not sure how well DS and a silencer work together. Probably<BR>once, and then the discarding part of the DS rips the silencer's guts<BR>out.<BR>A subsonic DS probably isn't even worth building in a weapon this small:<BR>Such a light projectile at such a low velocity will have a negligible<BR>range.<BR><BR>As to the SA versus Bolt Action: The reason most modern sniper rifles<BR>(as opposed to, for example, marksman rifles) use BA because it's more<BR>accurate: The movement of the bolt combined with usual looseness of a SA<BR>design (there's always more room for movement of the shell casing within<BR>a SA lock) will cause inaccuracy in long-range fire. The difference in<BR>the game system is the few extra yards of range. In real life, it could<BR>be the difference between a hit and a miss.<BR><BR>(A sidenote: I have only recently began playing Traveller, so I'm not<BR>actually all that familiar with the game system. I'm approaching this<BR>problem from the other end, the Real Life...)<BR><BR>Niko "GNiko" Mikkanen<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Television is chewing gum for the eyes.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:28:33 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; At 10:27 AM -0800 2/21/01, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;In mail you write:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;And there may be a significant amount of actual history that<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion.&nbsp; For<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;example, the United States of America until the invention of<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt; the telegraph.<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt; In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the <BR>&gt;&gt;Imperium faces.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Oh? Check the travel times between California and the east coast back<BR>&gt;&gt;before the railroad.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;Shrug&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The bulk of the US was within decent travel times and the railroad <BR>&gt; came shortly afterward (and the issue if communications, the <BR>&gt; telegraph was earlier than the railroad, but I don't know the date). <BR>&gt; Also, the times even for pony express wasn't bad either.&nbsp; Much better <BR>&gt; than in the Imperium.<BR><BR>The pony express operated for less than two years. MUCH less. The<BR>telegraph and railroad replaced it. And I'm not certain but I don't<BR>think the telegraph was all *that* far ahead of the railroad. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3732<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-za02.mx.aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.98]) by air-za02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:37:39 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:37:12 1900<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id EAA72657;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:36:33 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:36:01 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id EAA72331<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:36:00 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:36:00 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102230936.EAA72331@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3732<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, February 23 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3733<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR>Re: Looking for a home<BR>Re: What could go wrong?<BR>Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: HTML gibberish<BR>Re: The spirit of the game<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Attn.: Penguin-Lovers<BR>Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR>Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: The spirit of the game<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>RE: What could go wrong?<BR>RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:47:18 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:59:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard<BR>&gt; Erickson) wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;No, the tranistion from "normal temp" to "complete iceage" was a<BR>&gt;&gt;century or so. And the transition from "complete ice age" to "super<BR>&gt;&gt;tropical" and then back to normal was also only a few 100 years. <BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;But the "complete ice age" and "normal" stages lasted tens of thousands<BR>&gt;&gt;of years. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I'll defer to your more accurate recollection.&nbsp; It was the transitions<BR>&gt; which were surprisingly rapid, not the overall oscillation itself.<BR><BR>I took special note because there could be planets in the Imperium<BR>that've undergone either transition in recorded history. Hell, you<BR>could have planets in the *middle* of such a transition. <BR><BR>But at the same time, once the transition happens, it *won't change for<BR>longer than recorded history. <BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:50:19 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Looking for a home<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Hello Folks,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've just started working on a map of the SPINWARD MARCHES using Campaign<BR>&gt; Cartographer.&nbsp; What I've done is to place the stars in their correct hex<BR>&gt; and all.&nbsp; Big deal right? &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; What I'm also doing is coloring in the<BR>&gt; star to represent the star type.&nbsp; Green for F class stars, Red for M class<BR>&gt; stars, Yellow for G class, Orange for K class.&nbsp; <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Question: what colors would people suggest I use for A class - Light Blue?<BR><BR>F should be white, with O and A being light blue.<BR><BR>Why? Because since green is *not* a possible color for a star, but it's<BR>been used in *so* much bad SF, I get bugged when I see something that<BR>even *implies* that stars are green.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:33:05 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; At least one computer programme whose interface module is incompletely <BR>&gt; translated from a language that none of the characters knows. (I once had <BR>&gt; a CAD package of German origin, which was fine except when you wanted to <BR>&gt; answer 'Yes' to a prompt you had to enter 'J' for 'Ja' instead of 'Y'!)<BR><BR>I had the "pleasure" of working with an engineer to convert some<BR>GW-BASIC programs from English to German. That sort of thing kept<BR>popping up even after many run throughs. I finally found the last one<BR>after several weeks. They had some *very* strange logic in those<BR>programs. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:55:14 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; We've just ordered the Shiny New Computer(tm), and once that is<BR>&gt;&gt; running, I am planning on a serious facelift for the site.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; 866Mhz Pentium III, 256Meg of Memory, 20 Gig HD, two CD bays,<BR>&gt;&gt; one 48x standard, one write-to drive.. man, I'm in Nerdvana!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;Envy&gt; I'm still stuck on a 200Mhz&nbsp; Pentium&nbsp; MMX&nbsp; with&nbsp; 64Meg&nbsp; of<BR>&gt; momory.&nbsp; However, I do have a 30Gig HD, a 12Gig HD, an&nbsp; 8Gig&nbsp; HD,<BR>&gt; two 2Gig HDs, a 1Gig HD, a 1Gig Jazz drive (with 9 disks), a DVD-<BR>&gt; ROM drive, a CD burner, a Zip&nbsp; drive,&nbsp; 3.5"&nbsp; *and*&nbsp; 5.25"&nbsp; floppy<BR>&gt; drives, the system box is so big it has its&nbsp; own&nbsp; caster&nbsp; wheels,<BR>&gt; and the 21" monitor chucks out enough heat to warm my flat in the<BR>&gt; winter months ... but it still only pootles along at 200Mhz.<BR><BR>Well, the box I'm in the process of building is an AMD K6-2-500 (the<BR>motherboard can't handle anything faster). 320 meg of RAM, I gig gig<BR>Jaz drive, 100 meg Zip drive, etc. I haven't selected an HD yet, and<BR>I'm not sure how fast the CD is. It'll have a 100baseTX NIC, though. <BR><BR>It'll connect to my 17 inch monitor via the same electronic KVM box the<BR>current system is using. <BR><BR>That'll give me this, after I get done re-arranging stuff:<BR><BR>OS&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CPU&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; RAM&nbsp; &nbsp; Purpose<BR>- -----------&nbsp; &nbsp; ------------&nbsp; &nbsp; ---&nbsp; &nbsp; ------------------<BR>OS/2 Warp 4 &nbsp; &nbsp; AMD K6-2-500&nbsp; &nbsp; 320&nbsp; &nbsp; "main box"<BR>Win98&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; AMD K6-2-300&nbsp; &nbsp; 320&nbsp; &nbsp; Windows box<BR>MacOS 7.6.2&nbsp; &nbsp; 68040 (LC-475)&nbsp; &nbsp; ???&nbsp; &nbsp; Mac stuff<BR>Netware 4.2&nbsp; &nbsp; Pentium 166&nbsp; &nbsp; 256?&nbsp; &nbsp; file server<BR>DR-DOS 7.03&nbsp; &nbsp; 486DX2-66&nbsp; &nbsp; 64&nbsp; &nbsp; uucp/fidonet<BR>"linux"&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 386DX-???&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; firewall<BR><BR>Note that other than the firewall and the file server, all of these<BR>will be using the *same* monitor. And all but the Mac will be using the<BR>same keyboard and mouse. :-)<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:09:03 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Hey Doug, better up that memory now.&nbsp; We're paying $106 for 256 Meg DIMMs.<BR><BR>*Where*? We just got quoted $131 for 256 meg, 133 DIMMs. And that's<BR>*dealer* price, not retail. Then again, it's Kingston.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:39:16 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR><BR>Am , las ich folgendes:<BR><BR>&gt; This is the biggest reason why I think that the DGP material should be <BR>&gt; removed from the body of Traveller canon (sooner rather than later).<BR>Au contraire, mon ami...<BR>I feel that the standard of quality that marks DGPs products should<BR>forbid its exclusion from Canon. Old GDW CT materials were never<BR>banned from canon, just because they were hard to get. And now they<BR>are reprinted. This will happen with DGPs stuff as well, I hope.<BR><BR>Exclusions from canon should only be considered for defective<BR>material, or material where there is an overproportinal lack of<BR>quality, such as in a large amount of T4 products (the maps in M:0,<BR>the whole of FS, Anomalies, Annilik Run, etc, etc..)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:53:38 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Oh, BTW.. Kiri?&nbsp; Baseball Season is starting. :)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; hmph.&nbsp; some world series.&nbsp; none of the teams I know anything about are<BR>&gt; ever in it!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; and all this khrappe just because I expected to go to a Traveller in SF<BR>&gt; gig and talk about Traveller?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; @_@;;;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; note to other non-baseball fans:&nbsp; do not get within 20 feet of penguin boy<BR>&gt; during baseball season if there is a game on.<BR><BR>Ok, fine. My ex-girlfriend is a Cubs fan. You learn to just shake your<BR>head and dust them off occasionally. :-)<BR><BR>&gt; I don't like baseball.&nbsp; Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow.<BR><BR>Then avoid cricket at all costs!<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:56:21 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: HTML gibberish<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; On 20 Feb 2001, at 19:39, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Gentles<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's?<BR>&gt;&gt; (just to pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any<BR>&gt;&gt; special steps to prevent it.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Nope, and your headers proclaim that you're posting in ASCII, so it's<BR>&gt; not just my email program (which is very good at hiding such crap<BR>&gt; from me).<BR><BR>Anybody who's ever worried about this, just mail a test message to<BR>system@krypton.rain.com. It's unlikely I'll *ever* use anything but a<BR>"plain text" reader on *that* account.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:11:01 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; ObTrav:&nbsp; Your gallant band of Adventurers (in between Ethically Challenged <BR>&gt; Merchant jobs), are hired as security for the Sub-Sector finals.<BR>&gt; It's the two big rivals and the blood is running hot.<BR><BR>If those planets are anything like a couple of South American countries<BR>that shall remain nameless, they may be hiring several *regiments* of<BR>mercenaries. <BR><BR>Or your ship may get an "unusual" cargo. A surplus grav tank, being<BR>shipped as "personal cargo" by one of the referrees for the match. He<BR>parks it just off the field. nd takes refuge in it if they get *too*<BR>ugly. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:42:51 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>&lt;weg&gt;<BR>;-) I really like the name of that thing ;-)<BR><BR>Beest to be carried by "people" called Lister, if you can call them<BR>that ;-)<BR>&lt;/weg&gt;<BR><BR>Volker<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:46:02 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Attn.: Penguin-Lovers<BR><BR>While browsing the web about my other hobby, Manga and anime, I found<BR>this link...<BR><BR>http://www.fredart.com/fredart/artpage.php3?src=&amp;ft=co&amp;fn=11<BR><BR>Penguinlovers enjoy :-)<BR><BR>Colker<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:50:53 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR><BR>Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; I did.<BR>&gt; http://www.loc.gov/copyright/&nbsp;&nbsp; For US copyright law<BR>&gt; http://www.uspto.gov&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; For Trademark law<BR>&gt; bloo<BR><BR>&gt; Peter Newman wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt; wrote<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; before you accept<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Bloo could you suggest an appropriate source I might use<BR>&gt; &gt; to look up the factualness of the above assertion? :)<BR><BR>Not the assertion about copyright vs trademark, I already<BR>knew that. I was inquiring about your assertion that "before <BR>you accept as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself."<BR>What source, or sources, do you have to prove that I should or<BR>shouldn't accept what people say as fact without looking it up<BR>myself? If you have no such sources than your advice is (on it's<BR>own terms) useless however to check your sources i would first<BR>need to believe the assertion that I ought not to accept things<BR>as fact without checking them. If I already believe this assertion<BR>why should I check it?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:52:50 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 10:39, Volker wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Am , las ich folgendes:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; This is the biggest reason why I think that the DGP material should be<BR>&gt; &gt; removed from the body of Traveller canon (sooner rather than later).<BR><BR>&gt; Au contraire, mon ami...<BR>&gt; I feel that the standard of quality that marks DGPs products should<BR>&gt; forbid its exclusion from Canon. Old GDW CT materials were never<BR>&gt; banned from canon, just because they were hard to get. And now they<BR>&gt; are reprinted. This will happen with DGPs stuff as well, I hope.<BR><BR>Well, I have some reservations regarding their quality too, but I think its <BR>time to face reality. For whatever reason, this material is gone and it ain't <BR>coming back<BR><BR>&gt; Exclusions from canon should only be considered for defective<BR>&gt; material, or material where there is an overproportinal lack of<BR>&gt; quality, such as in a large amount of T4 products (the maps in M:0,<BR>&gt; the whole of FS, Anomalies, Annilik Run, etc, etc..)<BR><BR>The copyright of the GDW material was never in doubt or a hinderance for <BR>authors. It is for DGP material<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 05:43:20 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:12:50 +0200<BR>&gt; From: Niko Mikkanen &lt;niko.mikkanen@capslock.fi&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hi all. I'm a newbie here, but it seems a good time to open my mouth a<BR>&gt; little...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; DaveShayne wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Penetration: Ball=2-3-nil DS=1-2-3 HE=nil HEAP=2-2-2<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Counts as fully silenced<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; The original version of this design had a bolt action in order to<BR>&gt; &gt; gain the extra few meters range but it seems more usefull to me<BR>&gt; &gt; to have the SA fire rate. The bipod is included mostly because I<BR>&gt; &gt; don't see a weapon this unwieldy being particularly aimable<BR>&gt; &gt; without one (the range and recoil absorption is a bonus.)<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; David Shayne<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Umm, ok, here's the beef: How do you make the weapon hit anything on<BR>&gt; long range, if it's subsonic? And how do you make it completely silent,<BR>&gt; if it's supersonic: there's always going to be the crack of the sound<BR>&gt; barrier breaking.<BR><BR>According to the FFS rules this round is subsonic. How does it fire to<BR>long range? I'm not sure I understand the question. Range is determined<BR>(at least according to FFS) by muzzle energy (modified by barrel length<BR>so that a longer barrel doesn't result in as great an increase in range<BR>as a straight calculation would suggest.) The low velocity of this round<BR>is offset by the rather high mass of the bullet allowing for a longer range<BR>than a subsonic round of a smaller calibre.<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Also, I'm not sure how well DS and a silencer work together. Probably<BR>&gt; once, and then the discarding part of the DS rips the silencer's guts<BR>&gt; out.<BR><BR>Hadn't thought of that. DS is probably out. Although I expect the normal<BR>combat load to be HEAP anyway (pen vs armor is beter at longer range<BR>even if maximum range is less)<BR><BR>&gt; A subsonic DS probably isn't even worth building in a weapon this small:<BR>&gt; Such a light projectile at such a low velocity will have a negligible<BR>&gt; range.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; As to the SA versus Bolt Action: The reason most modern sniper rifles<BR>&gt; (as opposed to, for example, marksman rifles) use BA because it's more<BR>&gt; accurate: The movement of the bolt combined with usual looseness of a SA<BR>&gt; design (there's always more room for movement of the shell casing within<BR>&gt; a SA lock) will cause inaccuracy in long-range fire. The difference in<BR>&gt; the game system is the few extra yards of range. In real life, it could<BR>&gt; be the difference between a hit and a miss.<BR><BR>Sure. But I figured the ability to lay 3 rounds near target somewhat<BR>less accurately would compensate for a reduction of a single rounds<BR>accurate range. I suppose the TNE combat model could be broken.<BR>I can say with surety that the design rules tend to give *interesting*<BR>results. I like to play to the extremes and that shows up the limitations<BR>of the system more than usual.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:14:49 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 0:09, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Hey Doug, better up that memory now.&nbsp; We're paying $106 for 256 Meg DIMMs.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; *Where*? We just got quoted $131 for 256 meg, 133 DIMMs. And that's<BR>&gt; *dealer* price, not retail. Then again, it's Kingston.<BR><BR>Hmm. Retail's NZ$300, inc GST over here right now. That's about US$120-130. <BR>It's nice to find something that we don't get ripped-off for. :)<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:24:46 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 5:43, DaveShayne wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; According to the FFS rules this round is subsonic. How does it fire to<BR>&gt; long range? I'm not sure I understand the question. Range is determined<BR>&gt; (at least according to FFS) by muzzle energy (modified by barrel length<BR>&gt; so that a longer barrel doesn't result in as great an increase in range<BR>&gt; as a straight calculation would suggest.) The low velocity of this round<BR>&gt; is offset by the rather high mass of the bullet allowing for a longer range than<BR>&gt; a subsonic round of a smaller calibre.<BR><BR>It's a fault in the system, and I've yet to see a small arm desgin system that <BR>doesn't do this. There seems to be this weird idea that heavier bullets go <BR>further than light ones. While it is true over the mid-range of small arms it <BR>breaks down at the extremes, like sub-sonic rounds, where the drag from the air <BR>has less impact than the fact that the tracjectory is rather like a rain-bow. I <BR>suspect a fair bit of the problem comes from using projectile mass rather than <BR>sectional density in the algorithms.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:24:46 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 11:12, Niko Mikkanen wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; As to the SA versus Bolt Action: The reason most modern sniper rifles<BR>&gt; (as opposed to, for example, marksman rifles) use BA because it's more<BR>&gt; accurate: The movement of the bolt combined with usual looseness of a SA<BR>&gt; design (there's always more room for movement of the shell casing within<BR>&gt; a SA lock) will cause inaccuracy in long-range fire. The difference in<BR>&gt; the game system is the few extra yards of range. In real life, it could<BR>&gt; be the difference between a hit and a miss.<BR><BR>While this is true, with a well made weapon (not an AK-47, etc) it doesn't make <BR>a whole lot of difference. Bench-resters will notice, but for the rest of us <BR>the difference is small enough that the less accurate bolt-actions of a given <BR>make will be less accurate than the more accurate semi-auto of a good, accurate <BR>design. IOW unless you're actually giving individual weapons adjustments to <BR>accuracy you can generally ignore this, assuming that care has been taken in <BR>designing the weapon to make it accurate.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:21:40 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>Ah..that's what I get for posting inside jokes.<BR><BR>This is an old strawman argument used to annoy Japanese martial artists who <BR>claim that American Karate (Aikido, Judo, whatever) practitioners will <BR>never really&nbsp;&nbsp; understand or practice "correctly", because they lack the <BR>proper "spirit."&nbsp; They usually make such a claim after they or their <BR>students lose to an American/Frenchman/Englishman/someother non-Japanese.<BR><BR>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt; types:<BR>&gt;From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "Ahh...that is truly the spirit of Baseball.&nbsp; It's just not<BR>&gt;"Baseball" with noodles served in the stands, and Coaches politely<BR>&gt;disagreeing with the Umpires.&nbsp; The technique may be good, but the "proper"<BR>&gt;spirit just isn't there....<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "Some folks hold the attitude that even in losing, their team is the<BR>&gt;"more correct" team."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mr. Urbin,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I have been to a half dozen games in Japan and found the fans to be<BR>&gt;just as spirited as the ones in Fenway.&nbsp; You'd like it very much.&nbsp; They<BR>&gt;simply express their fervor differently.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; You should see the home made banners, drum and horns groups, and abuse<BR>&gt;heape on the umps!&nbsp; The game is more like the National League game, even<BR>&gt;with their use of the DH.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; At least their players don't spit on the umps.<BR><BR>Like I said, not "real" baseball. :-)<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As for a "correct team", the Sox have always been more correct than<BR>&gt;those dratted Yankees and all the Series they bought.<BR><BR>Well, of course.&nbsp; The Sox have Spirit (Even if it's just the Bambino's), <BR>while the Yankees are just the best team money can buy.<BR><BR>I remember being at an '86 World Series party in Waltham (MA).&nbsp; This poor <BR>bastard had the bottle of champaign between his thighs, his thumbs on the <BR>cork...then the ball dropped.<BR><BR>One thing I've learned living in the PRM, the local sports teams are only <BR>here to hurt you.<BR><BR>ObTrav:&nbsp; It's an interesting study in fanatic behavior. :-)<BR>- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/&nbsp; Opinions Mine!<BR>Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?<BR>Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.<BR>(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)<BR>- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:59:00 -0600<BR>From: "D. Smart" &lt;dsmart@imagin.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>Niko Mikkanen &lt;niko.mikkanen@capslock.fi&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hi all. I'm a newbie here, but it seems a good time to open my mouth a<BR>&gt; little...<BR><BR>Excellent! Don't be shy; we don't bite (much).<BR><BR>&gt; DaveShayne wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Penetration: Ball=2-3-nil DS=1-2-3 HE=nil HEAP=2-2-2<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Counts as fully silenced<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Umm, ok, here's the beef: How do you make the weapon hit anything on<BR>&gt; long range, if it's subsonic? And how do you make it completely silent,<BR>&gt; if it's supersonic: there's always going to be the crack of the sound<BR>&gt; barrier breaking.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Also, I'm not sure how well DS and a silencer work together. Probably<BR>&gt; once, and then the discarding part of the DS rips the silencer's guts<BR>&gt; out.<BR>&lt;snips of other comment&gt;<BR><BR>I gotta admit to being curious about these points also,<BR>though I'm not<BR>a weapons afficionado.<BR><BR>&gt; (A sidenote: I have only recently began playing Traveller, so I'm not<BR>&gt; actually all that familiar with the game system. I'm approaching this<BR>&gt; problem from the other end, the Real Life...)<BR><BR>With all the Traveller versions floating around, game system<BR>is really<BR>irrelevant. Translating RealLife(tm) effects into any of<BR>them is fairly<BR>easy. A concensus on the effects themselves is the critical<BR>part.<BR><BR>And with that, I point you to the TML's resident combat<BR>specialists,<BR>starting with the name *I'm* most familiar with, Mr. Doug<BR>"Penguin Boy"<BR>Berry (sir!).<BR><BR>(Can't wait to see the responses to your post, Mr.<BR>Mikkanen!)<BR><BR>David Smart<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:51:36 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>Hal wrote:<BR>&gt; 5) This is where the List's diabolical nature can excel in<BR>&gt; giving out ideas.&nbsp; What else can go wrong that is annoying -<BR>&gt; potentially alarming, even demoralizing, yet not deadly enough<BR>&gt; to make a ship become rated as "unsafe".<BR><BR>You sign your emails "Hal" and you can't guess the obveous one?<BR><BR>Ships Computer: "Dave?&nbsp; I have to tell you something.&nbsp; The&nbsp; AE-35<BR>&nbsp; unit will suffer 100% failure&nbsp; within&nbsp; 48&nbsp; hours.&nbsp; I&nbsp; recommend<BR>&nbsp; complete replacement of the unit."<BR><BR>Dave (Ship's Pilot): "What's wrong with it, Hal?"<BR><BR>Ship's Computer: "I have no information on that.&nbsp; I enjoy working<BR>&nbsp; with humans and I have every confidence in the mission."<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:02:27 -0600<BR>From: "Matthew W. Helton" &lt;mwhelton@cox-internet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>****On 23 Feb 2001, at 11:12, Niko Mikkanen wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; As to the SA versus Bolt Action: The reason most modern sniper rifles<BR>&gt; (as opposed to, for example, marksman rifles) use BA because it's more<BR>&gt; accurate: The movement of the bolt combined with usual looseness of a SA<BR>&gt; design (there's always more room for movement of the shell casing within<BR>&gt; a SA lock) will cause inaccuracy in long-range fire. The difference in<BR>&gt; the game system is the few extra yards of range. In real life, it could<BR>&gt; be the difference between a hit and a miss.<BR><BR>While this is true, with a well made weapon (not an AK-47, etc) it doesn't<BR>make<BR>a whole lot of difference. Bench-resters will notice, but for the rest of us<BR>the difference is small enough that the less accurate bolt-actions of a<BR>given<BR>make will be less accurate than the more accurate semi-auto of a good,<BR>accurate<BR>design. IOW unless you're actually giving individual weapons adjustments to<BR>accuracy you can generally ignore this, assuming that care has been taken in<BR>designing the weapon to make it accurate.****<BR><BR>Therein lies the problem, Rupert. To get "Long Range" accuracy, you HAVE to<BR>notice the differences at close ranges. Even the vaunted Walther WA2000<BR>(Which was built from the magazine up for the express purpose of being a<BR>sniper rifle) and HK PSG-1 (A completely re-engineered G3) couldn't stand up<BR>to the M40 (Remington 700 Based) sniper rifle at ranges past 600 meters. The<BR>only reason the SEALs still use the M21 was that they have this fixation<BR>with firepower (Most real SEALs I have seen shoot are far worse marksmen<BR>than a typical police officer, but they do have some cool toys) over<BR>precision - At least they did in the Late 80'2/Early90's when I saw them<BR>shoot regularly).<BR>A rifle capable of Minute of Angle accuracy is shooting a 10.5" CEP at 1000<BR>yards, and that is barely adequate. A Suppressed sniper rifle firing<BR>conventional ammunition is more useful than it sounds (pun intended). Use<BR>the high velocity stuff for longer distance engagements, and low velocity<BR>for close range work. Two different sets of Zeros and Range Data, but<BR>certainly doable. A TL9 Sniper Rifle might well be Smart enough to have an<BR>self-ranging scope and ammunition awareness built-in, if money were no<BR>object. Hell, it's possible NOW to do such a thing, and it has been done,<BR>just not all at once on the same rifle.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Best,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Matt<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 02:12:46 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 7:02, Matthew W. Helton wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Therein lies the problem, Rupert. To get "Long Range" accuracy, you HAVE to<BR>&gt; notice the differences at close ranges. Even the vaunted Walther WA2000 (Which<BR>&gt; was built from the magazine up for the express purpose of being a sniper rifle)<BR>&gt; and HK PSG-1 (A completely re-engineered G3) couldn't stand up to the M40<BR>&gt; (Remington 700 Based) sniper rifle at ranges past 600 meters. The only reason<BR>&gt; the SEALs still use the M21 was that they have this fixation with firepower<BR>&gt; (Most real SEALs I have seen shoot are far worse marksmen than a typical police<BR>&gt; officer, but they do have some cool toys) over precision - At least they did in<BR>&gt; the Late 80'2/Early90's when I saw them shoot regularly). A rifle capable of<BR>&gt; Minute of Angle accuracy is shooting a 10.5" CEP at 1000 yards, and that is<BR>&gt; barely adequate. A Suppressed sniper rifle firing conventional ammunition is<BR>&gt; more useful than it sounds (pun intended). Use the high velocity stuff for<BR>&gt; longer distance engagements, and low velocity for close range work. Two<BR>&gt; different sets of Zeros and Range Data, but certainly doable. A TL9 Sniper Rifle<BR>&gt; might well be Smart enough to have an self-ranging scope and ammunition<BR>&gt; awareness built-in, if money were no object. Hell, it's possible NOW to do such<BR>&gt; a thing, and it has been done, just not all at once on the same rifle.<BR><BR>All this is true. However accuracy below the 1 MOA is as much tuning and ammo <BR>selection as the action (assuming high quality of manufacture), and at 1000m <BR>the most important thing is accurate estimation of the range.<BR><BR>BTW I had an M1 Garand that shot 1 MOA with iron sights, from a rest, without <BR>accurisation, or hunting through heaps of different loads for the best one, so <BR>there are accurate semi-autos around. With a scope and careful selection of <BR>loads I'd be surprised if that rifle wouldn't have got down to 0.75 MOA.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3733<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, February 23 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3734<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR>Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>RE: System defenses<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)<BR>[Website Review] Andrew's Traveller Page<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR>Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR>Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:59:04 -0500<BR>From: Kurt Feltenberger &lt;kurt@blazenet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>At 07:02 AM 02/23/2001 -0600, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; A TL9 Sniper Rifle might well be Smart enough to have an<BR>&gt;self-ranging scope and ammunition awareness built-in, if money were no<BR>&gt;object. Hell, it's possible NOW to do such a thing, and it has been done,<BR>&gt;just not all at once on the same rifle.<BR><BR>We have a scope like that now, it's produced by Swarovski Optik and is <BR>called the LRS, or Laser Ranging Scope.&nbsp; Pretty nifty, it determines the <BR>range and adjusts the scope based on the cam installed.<BR><BR>Get'em now, they're down from $4495.00 at $1995.00!<BR><BR>Kurt Feltenberger<BR><BR>"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ~Stephen Decatur<BR><BR><BR>mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:51:08 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 8:29, Ian or Katts wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;This makes me wonder, how could/did the 3I *avoid* getting entangled<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;in issues such as these?&nbsp; If the 3I is just a unifying police and<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;protection force, then there would be many cases of injustices,<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;misfortunes of circumstance, etc. where many people suffer, potentially<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;needlessly, if the 3I stepped in and helped.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; "The Imperium does not rule worlds, it rules the space between the<BR>worlds".<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; To suggest the Imperium steps in and helps is Dulinorism - a recovation<BR>of what has worked so well for<BR>&gt;&gt; 1100 years ...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;True.&nbsp; "The Imperium is the facilitator and the police and defense,<BR>&gt;nothing more."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;But didn't some other posts this week imply there was some [implicit]<BR>&gt;authority over the worlds despite the "rules the spaces" phrase?<BR>&gt;I.e., that's what they say when asked why they don't do X, but if it<BR>&gt;really came down to it, were extremely important, whatever, they<BR>&gt;*could* intervene. (But then those issues aren't what I was thinking<BR>&gt;about initially anyway. See below.)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>From the Imperial Constitution chartered by Cleon I with the Warrant of<BR>Restoration:<BR><BR>Article VIII -<BR>Acknowledgments of Imperial Power: Notwithstanding any provisions to the<BR>contrary contained<BR>in this document or in subsequent Imperial actions, the Imperium, for the<BR>purpose of ensuring its<BR>continued safety and stability, reserves to itself the power to unilaterally<BR>enact changes in any or<BR>all aspects of the relationship between itself and any member world or<BR>citizen.<BR><BR>In the U.S. we'd call something like this the supremacy clause. Imperial Law<BR>always overrides local laws.<BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:08:51 -0800<BR>From: Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>on 2/23/01 12:09 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Hey Doug, better up that memory now.&nbsp; We're paying $106 for 256 Meg DIMMs.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; *Where*? We just got quoted $131 for 256 meg, 133 DIMMs. And that's<BR>&gt; *dealer* price, not retail. Then again, it's Kingston.<BR><BR>Hewitt-Rand here in Tigard.&nbsp; I also see that Fry's is advertising 128 Meg<BR>DIMMs for $49.95.<BR><BR>Tod<BR>- --<BR>"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.<BR>They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Daniel Webster<BR>- -- <BR>Tod L Glenn<BR>webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.spinwardmarches.com<BR>http://www.solsec.org<BR>http://www.grandsurvey.com<BR>http://travellerguns.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:05:05 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: System defenses<BR><BR>&gt;What surprises me is that I have yet to see a single publication put out<BR>&gt;for Traveller based on the Ine Givar.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;GM: You are a local Cell within the Imperium, dedicated to the overthrow of<BR>&gt;the Imperial structure.&nbsp; What are your plans?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; It would be interesting to see just how effective the Ine Givar could be,<BR>&gt;especially if they started getting their hands on weapons of mass<BR>&gt;destruction - bioweapons as it were?&nbsp; Imagine, what would happen if the Ine<BR>&gt;Givar were to target, not the people themselves, but the plants of a single<BR>&gt;world?&nbsp; They create a carrier such as perhaps a honey bee.&nbsp; It pollenates<BR>&gt;plants left and right, and then - a year later, the plant disease starts<BR>&gt;striking.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;On second thought, perhaps it would be wise not to go into such details...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>I see the Ine Givar on the same footing as the Red Brigade or the<BR>Weathermen. They have absolutely no chance of overthrowing the Imperium or<BR>even undermining the government of a local world. That doesn't mean that<BR>they are not dangerous, disruptive or a problem for security forces. It just<BR>means that they will ultimately fail in their objective. Should they<BR>actually succeed in deploying a weapon of mass destruction the Imperial<BR>response will totally crush them. (Because then the Imperium will exercise<BR>extreme measures to find and kill them that the local populous would not<BR>normally support. Things like psi agents, draconian ID checks and secret<BR>police methods, etc.) Should the Joes and the Imperium ever make real peace,<BR>(as they do in the TNE setting,) then as happened when Eastern Germany fell,<BR>they will give up all they know of the Ine Givar, and it will be quickly<BR>shutdown.<BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:03:05 -0000<BR>From: "Neil McGurk" &lt;nellkyn@gascoignes.fsnet.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>Hello<BR><BR>At last a chance to creep from the shadows.<BR><BR>&gt; Remember that the English upper classes came from France -- Norman<BR>&gt; Conquest, 1066, and all that.&nbsp; (Well, actually, they came from Scandinavia<BR>&gt; by way of a long stopover in Normandy where they learned French, became<BR>&gt; Christians, and stopped doing the bloody eagle.)&nbsp; Anyway, the English<BR>&gt; upper classes spoke and wrote in French until about Elizabethan times.<BR>&gt; Some of them still do, I understand.<BR><BR>Just a hundred years earlier. A large number of guilds started to keep their records in<BR>English at the start of the Fifteenth century. The reason was the 'offical' language of<BR>the ruling class had become English. Just keeping up with the Jones. Latin was the<BR>language of the truly educated. Also Chaucer also wrote in English for the upper classes<BR>and he was writing in the late Fourteenth century.<BR><BR>English people of all classes speak some French. I even know a couple of words. The<BR>problem is that the upper classes speak a different version of English than wot I does.<BR><BR>I'll go now.<BR><BR>Neil M<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --Glenn<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; __________________________________________________<BR>&gt; Do You Yahoo!?<BR>&gt; Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:39:38 -0500<BR>From: Ethan Henry &lt;ethan.henry@sitraka.com&gt;<BR>Subject: OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)<BR><BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Hey Doug, better up that memory now.&nbsp; We're paying $106 for 256 Meg DIMMs.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; *Where*? We just got quoted $131 for 256 meg, 133 DIMMs. And that's<BR>&gt; *dealer* price, not retail. Then again, it's Kingston.<BR><BR>$123 here for a 256 mes PC133 stick... CANADIAN. Haw!<BR>(I think that's about $88 US dollars).<BR><BR>BTW, on a related note...<BR><BR>Can any of our UK readers explain why they don't buy everything<BR>outside of the UK? Any consumer good, especially electronics,<BR>seems to cost the same in pounds as it does in dollars here. <BR><BR>Which is wierd when you consider that the pound is worth nearly<BR>$2.50 CDN.<BR><BR>If you wanted to buy a high-end piece of gear, like a camcorder,<BR>it seems like it would be cheaper to get a cheap flight to Canada<BR>and buy it here, cost of the flight included. What gives?<BR><BR>ObTrav: The PCs ship is chartered by a semi-wealthy family for a <BR>shopping expedition the next system over... and when they get back,<BR>they've got 12 dtons of cargo and the PCs have already filled the<BR>hold with groat pelts to sell. (well, not that exciting maybe, but<BR>it could LEAD to trouble...)<BR><BR>Ethan<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:33:16 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: [Website Review] Andrew's Traveller Page<BR><BR>The Traveller Website Review<BR>- ----------------------------<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Valance foolishly drew&nbsp; attention&nbsp; to&nbsp; himself&nbsp; by<BR>asking for more website reviews and so ...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Andrew's Traveller Page<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; http://www.downport.com/amv<BR><BR>This site used to be hosted at Netaccess (and an old version&nbsp; can<BR>still be found there) but now its hosted at Downport.&nbsp; The&nbsp; front<BR>page is simple and fast loading, and&nbsp; checking&nbsp; out&nbsp; the&nbsp; "What's<BR>New" page shows this site to be still active.&nbsp; (At&nbsp; last!)&nbsp; While<BR>some of the&nbsp; material&nbsp; here&nbsp; is&nbsp; generic,&nbsp; most&nbsp; supports&nbsp; either<BR>Andrew's&nbsp; 'historical'&nbsp; pre-RoM&nbsp; Nth&nbsp; Interstellar&nbsp; War&nbsp; campaign<BR>"Prometheus Rising" or his non-canon campaign "Greater Magellanic<BR>Cloud Campaign".<BR><BR>The generic stuff:<BR><BR>First up is "Andrew's Used&nbsp; Gravcar&nbsp; Lot".&nbsp; This&nbsp; has&nbsp; 6&nbsp; vehicle<BR>designs made using Rob Prior's "Infini-V" software (T4 CSC design<BR>sequence).&nbsp; Mainly TL8/9 'cars' but also a TL3&nbsp; land&nbsp; yacht&nbsp; with<BR>optional wet bar (a nice detail).&nbsp; The sizes&nbsp; (0.5&nbsp; dtons&nbsp; for&nbsp; a<BR>family car) seen a little small but are probably correct ...&nbsp; now<BR>I'm going to have to measure&nbsp; my&nbsp; own&nbsp; car&nbsp; and&nbsp; figure&nbsp; out&nbsp; its<BR>displacement.<BR><BR>Next is "Andrew's Arms Bazaar".&nbsp; This has&nbsp; 2&nbsp; rifles&nbsp; made&nbsp; using<BR>Andrew's&nbsp; own&nbsp; "Gunsmith"&nbsp; Excel&nbsp; spreadsheet&nbsp; (T4&nbsp; FF&amp;S2&nbsp; design<BR>sequence) ... a 12mm revolver rifle and a 4mm gauss rifle.<BR><BR>In "Library Data" there are 4 articles: an&nbsp; interesting&nbsp; cultural<BR>piece on "The Return Of The Skirt", rules for&nbsp; ship&nbsp; construction<BR>(not a design sequence but rules detailing construction&nbsp; methods,<BR>workers, prices, and times ... your new starships will&nbsp; never&nbsp; be<BR>delivered shrink-wrapped again),&nbsp; a&nbsp; univeral&nbsp; corporate&nbsp; profile<BR>(think USP string for corporations ... unfinished), and&nbsp; the&nbsp; TML<BR>Landgrab of Ficant (about 50% complete but looking very&nbsp; good&nbsp; so<BR>far).<BR><BR>Finally there is "Traveller Software" with&nbsp; 4&nbsp; programs.&nbsp; A&nbsp; High<BR>Guard ship constructor&nbsp; for&nbsp; Windows&nbsp; (seems&nbsp; to&nbsp; work&nbsp; well).&nbsp; A<BR>sector regenerator (reroll dodgy stats for Genie/Sunbeam&nbsp; sectors<BR>... untried).&nbsp; An Excel spreadsheet for FF&amp;S2&nbsp; personal&nbsp; weapons.<BR>And an Excel spreadsheet for Pocket Empires.<BR><BR>The campaign stuff:<BR><BR>"Greater&nbsp; Magellanic&nbsp; Cloud&nbsp; Campaign":&nbsp; This&nbsp; is&nbsp;&nbsp; a&nbsp;&nbsp; non-canon<BR>campaign.&nbsp; On the web site there are notes on history, the Terran<BR>Empire, corporations, warships, marines, and&nbsp; aliens.&nbsp; A&nbsp; section<BR>for a timeline is planned.&nbsp; The warship&nbsp; section&nbsp; lacks&nbsp; specific<BR>designs.&nbsp; No maps&nbsp; are&nbsp; provided&nbsp; as&nbsp; these&nbsp; campaign&nbsp; notes&nbsp; are<BR>intended to be used in conjuction with "Galactic" (the&nbsp; Traveller<BR>mapping software) which has the&nbsp; relevant&nbsp; maps&nbsp; already&nbsp; loaded.<BR>There is a fair amount of material here and a separate review&nbsp; is<BR>warrented.&nbsp; However, a cursory glance suggests if you are looking<BR>for an alternative to the 3I universe this would be a good&nbsp; first<BR>choice.<BR><BR>"Prometheus Rising":&nbsp; This is a 'historical' campaign set&nbsp; during<BR>the Nth Interstellar Wars&nbsp; at&nbsp; the&nbsp; dawn&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; Rule&nbsp; of&nbsp; Man.<BR>Terrans V the First Imperium.&nbsp; On the web site there are notes on<BR>origins, history, the Terran Confederation,&nbsp; the&nbsp; Vilani,&nbsp; Terran<BR>free traders, and Ships.&nbsp; Sections are&nbsp; planned&nbsp; for&nbsp; Sharurshid,<BR>the intelligence war, the Vegans, and&nbsp; personalities.&nbsp; Again,&nbsp; no<BR>maps are provided as these campaign notes are intended to be used<BR>in conjuction with "Galactic".&nbsp; Again, there is a fair amount&nbsp; of<BR>material here and a separate review is warrented.&nbsp; But from&nbsp; what<BR>I've seen so far this material is going to become canon IMTU.<BR><BR>In summary:&nbsp; There are some good resources here for T4 campaigns,<BR>and a few for other versions as well.&nbsp; The material is&nbsp; a&nbsp; little<BR>specialised ... but the Prometheus Rising setting is&nbsp; very&nbsp; handy<BR>for any campaigns set in the Solomani Rim (even&nbsp; if&nbsp; not&nbsp; in&nbsp; the<BR>same period).<BR><BR>Improvements:&nbsp; I actually prefer the different colour&nbsp; scheme&nbsp; of<BR>the original version of this site (but&nbsp; that's&nbsp; just&nbsp; a&nbsp; personal<BR>opinion).&nbsp; The Traveller link from Andrew's *personal* page links<BR>to his old site not this new version.&nbsp; Some of the pages&nbsp; in&nbsp; the<BR>campaigns have links to more pages ... without links on the&nbsp; main<BR>campaign settings you are forced to drill down to them (and&nbsp; they<BR>can be easily overlooked).&nbsp; I would recommend the campaign&nbsp; menus<BR>contain both main links and these&nbsp; secondary&nbsp; links.&nbsp; Other&nbsp; than<BR>that, the main way to improve this site is for the site's&nbsp; author<BR>to keep up the good work and continue to add content.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:34:22 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On Thursday, February 22, 2001, at 11:03 PM, Neil McGurk wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; English people of all classes speak some French.<BR><BR>Every English schoolboy knows "Merde". :-) Subtitled films often don't translate "merci", "bonjour", etc. I think most English people know a couple of words (literally...) in French, German and maybe even Spanish, they just can't say them very well and can't build them into sentences. :-)<BR><BR>&gt; I even know a couple of words. The <BR>&gt; problem is that the upper classes speak a different version of English than wot I does. <BR><BR>The Queen's English is eroding. She's straying into (Thames) "Estuary English", contemporary sub-cockney standard English. Innit. <BR><BR>Accents are used to mark out social groups, but the adoption of new language generated by oppressed/lower-classed groups by higher-classed groups is common as well.<BR><BR>ObTrav: Those nobles, eh? What are they talking about? Well, you'd better figure it out, and not offend them, because they're paying for this trip....<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/<BR>Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,<BR>Edition en Anglais.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:47:33 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>&gt; Remember that the English upper classes came from France -- Norman<BR>&gt; Conquest, 1066, and all that.<BR><BR>Bit of trivia:&nbsp; This explains why there are different&nbsp; words&nbsp; for<BR>meats as opposed to the animals they come from.&nbsp; A peasant&nbsp; would<BR>see a bovine and call it a cow, a French-speaking noble would see<BR>bovine meat on his plate and call it a cow ... but the French for<BR>cow is "beouff" (sp?).&nbsp; Over the years that became&nbsp; "beef".&nbsp; Same<BR>story for pig and porc (pork), etc.&nbsp; The peasants didn't&nbsp; get&nbsp; to<BR>eat cows or pigs ... but did eat chicken.&nbsp; Thus, unlike for&nbsp; cows<BR>and pigs, the word for the chicken animal and&nbsp; the&nbsp; chicken&nbsp; meat<BR>are the same.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:01:14 -0800<BR>From: Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>on 2/23/01 2:43 AM, DaveShayne at daveshayne@email.msn.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; According to the FFS rules this round is subsonic. How does it fire to<BR>&gt; long range? I'm not sure I understand the question. Range is determined<BR>&gt; (at least according to FFS) by muzzle energy (modified by barrel length<BR>&gt; so that a longer barrel doesn't result in as great an increase in range<BR>&gt; as a straight calculation would suggest.) The low velocity of this round<BR>&gt; is offset by the rather high mass of the bullet allowing for a longer range<BR>&gt; than a subsonic round of a smaller calibre.<BR><BR>Low velocity means a high ballistic arc.&nbsp; In order to get any kind of long<BR>range, you'll need significant elevation.&nbsp; The longer (realtime) flight path<BR>means the round will be more susceptible to outside factors like cross wind.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Also, I'm not sure how well DS and a silencer work together. Probably<BR>&gt;&gt; once, and then the discarding part of the DS rips the silencer's guts<BR>&gt;&gt; out.<BR><BR>DS is out, and not useful anyway.&nbsp; DS is primarily a technique for driving<BR>sub caliber projectiles at very high velocity without increasing chamber<BR>pressure.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; As to the SA versus Bolt Action: The reason most modern sniper rifles<BR>&gt;&gt; (as opposed to, for example, marksman rifles) use BA because it's more<BR>&gt;&gt; accurate: The movement of the bolt combined with usual looseness of a SA<BR>&gt;&gt; design (there's always more room for movement of the shell casing within<BR>&gt;&gt; a SA lock) will cause inaccuracy in long-range fire. The difference in<BR>&gt;&gt; the game system is the few extra yards of range. In real life, it could<BR>&gt;&gt; be the difference between a hit and a miss.<BR><BR>Depends on the SA action, but in general this is true.&nbsp; Manually operated<BR>actions also allow for tighter chambers and less chance of ammunition being<BR>mangles by the feed cycle.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Sure. But I figured the ability to lay 3 rounds near target somewhat<BR>&gt; less accurately would compensate for a reduction of a single rounds<BR>&gt; accurate range. I suppose the TNE combat model could be broken.<BR>&gt; I can say with surety that the design rules tend to give *interesting*<BR>&gt; results. I like to play to the extremes and that shows up the limitations<BR>&gt; of the system more than usual.<BR><BR>This is starting to sound more like a support weapon than a sniper weapon. A<BR>way to compensate for low velocity, high arc might be the use of an advanced<BR>computing gunsite that factors in range, target movement, humidity, wind,<BR>etc.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>- --<BR>"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.<BR>They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Daniel Webster<BR>- -- <BR>Tod L Glenn<BR>webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.spinwardmarches.com<BR>http://www.solsec.org<BR>http://www.grandsurvey.com<BR>http://travellerguns.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:04:05 -0800<BR>From: Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>on 2/23/01 3:24 AM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; While this is true, with a well made weapon (not an AK-47, etc) it doesn't<BR>&gt; make <BR>&gt; a whole lot of difference. Bench-resters will notice, but for the rest of us<BR>&gt; the difference is small enough that the less accurate bolt-actions of a given<BR>&gt; make will be less accurate than the more accurate semi-auto of a good,<BR>&gt; accurate <BR>&gt; design. IOW unless you're actually giving individual weapons adjustments to<BR>&gt; accuracy you can generally ignore this, assuming that care has been taken in<BR>&gt; designing the weapon to make it accurate.<BR><BR>Absolutely true.&nbsp; My Match AR-15 will shoot 1/4" angle with handloads.<BR>Better than most .223 bolt rifles.<BR><BR>Tod<BR>- --<BR>"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.<BR>They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Daniel Webster<BR>- -- <BR>Tod L Glenn<BR>webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.spinwardmarches.com<BR>http://www.solsec.org<BR>http://www.grandsurvey.com<BR>http://travellerguns.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:01:28 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 17:02, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; This way a MSC (that's a chief cook) who is also Surface Warfare<BR>qualified, an<BR>&gt;&gt; Officer of the Deck and Fire Party Leader will get more money than some<BR>CT<BR>&gt;&gt; (That's Crypto Tech) who just works his primary job, but doesn't care<BR>about<BR>&gt;&gt; mastering general warfare skills (and so is not as good an asset for the<BR>ship.)<BR>&gt;&gt; Of course a GSC(SW)-That's a Gas Turbine Tech Chief, who is as qualified<BR>as the<BR>&gt;&gt; MSC will make substantially more. He went to school longer, his a more<BR>&gt;&gt; technically demanding specialty, and has lots of opportunities on the<BR>outside.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The idea is good, but it's that last that hurts. I don't know about the<BR>Navy,<BR>&gt;but my experience in our Army suggests that the infantry really suffer (and<BR>&gt;other teeth arms) becasue they have few skills transferable to the outside<BR>&gt;until they get enough rank to have human resource and management skills. As<BR>&gt;these are the people who are the whole reason everyone else exists, and the<BR>&gt;ones that do all the dying, they are naturally not very happy about being<BR>less<BR>&gt;well paid.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;--<BR>&gt;"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>That's a different problem. Pay should be commensurate with the risks. Now<BR>realistically a medic, who is also under fire should be paid more than an<BR>infantryman. He takes the same risks and has more extensive training. An<BR>regular infantryman is like a police officer or fire fighter in that risks<BR>are part of the job and a premium should be paid for taking that risk.<BR>However, it is unrealistic to expect that having a higher risk job should<BR>cancel out all of the other factors. If the infantryman is unhappy with his<BR>lot, over time he can change it through education, training and plain hard<BR>work (working to advance.)<BR><BR>It is not the military's job (just as it is not my company's job) to train<BR>people to increase their marketability when they leave.<BR><BR>I don't know how the Army classifies new recruits, but in the Navy almost<BR>everyone is slated for a particular job when they sign on the dotted line.<BR>Anyone who would be considered good employee material by a civilian company<BR>will get the opportunity to attend advanced training before they ever come<BR>in. In 20 something years I only ever knew one guy who came in to be a cook.<BR>Most Mess Specialist enter that rate because they come in the Navy as an<BR>undesignated striker. These are the people who, quite honestly, are poor job<BR>prospects. They generally did marginally in high school (but generally<BR>completed it, since the Navy typically won't even look at you if you don't<BR>have a diploma,) they have no college or technical school training, their<BR>scores on the ASVAP (or whatever IQ test the services are now using) are<BR>low. They are people the Navy recruits because they need grunt work done.<BR>They are a risk the navy is taking. The service expects most to do 4 years<BR>and get out.<BR><BR>Some turn out quite well. They make excellent Boatwainmates, Mess<BR>Specialists and Gunners Mates. Every great once in a while one will realize<BR>that they wasted their natural talent by sliding through HS and work to<BR>master a really difficult specialty and convince his or her's chain of<BR>command to give them a shot at a technical school. Some find that they have<BR>an affinity for the military and do well there. Many more end up getting<BR>thrown out (at much higher rates than those who originally are recruited for<BR>advanced training.)<BR><BR>ObTrav: (Yes I've got one.) Since we know (from canon) that the Imperial<BR>Navy can afford to be choosy are there any people who perform the "grunt"<BR>work? Do they use robots for the kind of repetitive cleaning and polishing<BR>work that present day sailors do? Before anyone answers "Well of course,<BR>that kind of thing is done by sailors to just keep the crew busy," remember<BR>that while it might be better for the GM to limit training time during jump<BR>(to prevent the PC's from advancing too rapidly in skills) for the IN it's a<BR>good thing. Many foreign navies even today use contractors to do things like<BR>cooking and cleaning and limit sailors to actual seamanship or combat tasks.<BR>If watchstanders and maintenance people are differentiated then things are<BR>even better, since productivity will be higher, accidents will be much<BR>reduced, and moral will be higher.<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:08:24 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR><BR>Peter Newman wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt; wrote<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I did.<BR>&gt; &gt; http://www.loc.gov/copyright/&nbsp;&nbsp; For US copyright law<BR>&gt; &gt; http://www.uspto.gov&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; For Trademark law<BR>&gt; &gt; bloo<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Peter Newman wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt; wrote<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; before you accept<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Bloo could you suggest an appropriate source I might use<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; to look up the factualness of the above assertion? :)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Not the assertion about copyright vs trademark, I already<BR>&gt; knew that. I was inquiring about your assertion that "before<BR>&gt; you accept as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself."<BR>&gt; What source, or sources, do you have to prove that I should or<BR>&gt; shouldn't accept what people say as fact without looking it up<BR>&gt; myself?<BR><BR>Well, technically, I can't prove a 'should' as I used it there.&nbsp; It's<BR>an opinion that you would be well served to look it up for yourself<BR>rather than accept anything posted here as accurate regarding law.<BR><BR>&gt; If you have no such sources than your advice is (on it's<BR>&gt; own terms) useless however to check your sources i would first<BR>&gt; need to believe the assertion that I ought not to accept things<BR>&gt; as fact without checking them. If I already believe this assertion<BR>&gt; why should I check it?<BR><BR>Let me simplify my point.<BR><BR>The original poster said that in the U.S. the phrase "Dungeons<BR>&amp; Dragons" is protected by US copyright law, but is protected<BR>by trademark law (and not copyright law) in Europe.<BR><BR>That statement is incorrect.<BR><BR>Because it is incorrect, you should not accept it as true.<BR><BR>A wise persons should also be skeptical of my statement and<BR>would be well advised to reseach the matter for themselves,<BR>so that they may draw their own conclusion.&nbsp; This is why<BR>when discussing legal matters, I always attempt to provide<BR>links so that others may read for themselves and come to<BR>their own conclusion of what is true and what is not, rather<BR>than accept my statements as fact.<BR><BR>Does that help?<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:13:22 <BR>From: "Michael McKeown" &lt;mmckeown67@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR><BR>I'd love to see Deneb done as a GT sector book. I think that was one of the <BR>sector listed on the wish list area at the SJG web site.<BR><BR><BR>- ----Original Message Follows----<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:04:56 +1300<BR><BR>On 22 Feb 2001, at 20:59, trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; The sector data that DGP used is located in the Missouri Archives.&nbsp; <BR>Several of<BR>&gt; these sectors are known to be flawed, but AFAIK Deneb wasn't one of them.<BR>&gt; Furthermore, this data matches* the maps from 'Atlas of the Imperium,' a<BR>&gt; canonical GDW-published product (to be included in FFE009, BTW).&nbsp; On the<BR>&gt; message boards at farfuture.net Marc has expressed a desire to clean up &amp;<BR>&gt; regularize this (Atlas/archive) data for publication as part of T5.<BR><BR>Yes, but that only gets you the raw UWPs.<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:14:56 -0800<BR>From: Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>&gt; Therein lies the problem, Rupert. To get "Long Range" accuracy, you HAVE to<BR>&gt; notice the differences at close ranges. Even the vaunted Walther WA2000<BR>&gt; (Which was built from the magazine up for the express purpose of being a<BR>&gt; sniper rifle) and HK PSG-1 (A completely re-engineered G3) couldn't stand up<BR>&gt; to the M40 (Remington 700 Based) sniper rifle at ranges past 600 meters.<BR><BR>The main problem that killed the WA2000 was cost, not performance.&nbsp; With<BR>tuning, the WA could shoot with just about any bolt gun, but why spend<BR>thousands of dollars, when an M40 can give the same performance for 1/4 the<BR>cost.&nbsp; The WA offered no real advantage over existing guns at much higher<BR>cost, and hence died.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; only reason the SEALs still use the M21 was that they have this fixation<BR>&gt; with firepower (Most real SEALs I have seen shoot are far worse marksmen<BR>&gt; than a typical police officer, but they do have some cool toys) over<BR>&gt; precision - At least they did in the Late 80'2/Early90's when I saw them<BR>&gt; shoot regularly).<BR><BR>Army snipers still use the M21 as well.&nbsp; It's the tactical role.&nbsp; The Army<BR>views the sniper rifle as primarily useful for point target engagement at<BR>long rifle range-taking out cadre and such.&nbsp; The Marines favor a hunter<BR>killer approach with well chosen targets attacked at very long range.<BR><BR>&gt; A rifle capable of Minute of Angle accuracy is shooting a 10.5" CEP at 1000<BR>&gt; yards, and that is barely adequate. A Suppressed sniper rifle firing<BR>&gt; conventional ammunition is more useful than it sounds (pun intended). Use<BR>&gt; the high velocity stuff for longer distance engagements, and low velocity<BR>&gt; for close range work.<BR><BR>Really not necessary, and overly complicated.&nbsp; Even though suppressed high<BR>velocity rounds have ballistic crack, the source of the firing is difficult,<BR>if not impossible to locate. Also, suppressors completely eliminate weapon's<BR>flash.<BR><BR>Army snipers in Vietnam, using silenced M21s with starlight scopes at night<BR>were absolutely lethal (many had over 500 kills).<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.<BR>They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Daniel Webster<BR>- -- <BR>Tod L Glenn<BR>webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.spinwardmarches.com<BR>http://www.solsec.org<BR>http://www.grandsurvey.com<BR>http://travellerguns.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3734<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, February 23 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3735<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: The spirit of the game<BR>[Website Review] Jackson Downport<BR>RE: Re : Indefinite life span<BR>Re: Looking for a home<BR>RE: What could go wrong?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)<BR>New Anti-Armor concept...<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...<BR>RE: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR>UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long<BR>Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR>RE: System defenses<BR>Re: OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: world series<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:12:09 -0500<BR>From: "Samuel D. Weiss" &lt;samwise1@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>&gt;This is an old strawman argument used to annoy Japanese martial artists who<BR>claim that American Karate (Aikido, Judo, whatever) practitioners will<BR>never really&nbsp;&nbsp; understand or practice "correctly", because they lack the<BR>proper "spirit."&nbsp; They usually make such a claim after they or their<BR>students lose to an American/Frenchman/Englishman/someother non-Japanese.&lt;<BR><BR>Too weird.<BR>We are discussing this very thing on a martial list I am on right now.<BR><BR><BR>Sam<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:15:30 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: [Website Review] Jackson Downport<BR><BR>The Traveller Website Review<BR>- ----------------------------<BR><BR>Two reviews on the same day?&nbsp; Surely not.&nbsp; But its true:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Jackson Downport (Joseph L. Lockett) <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; http://www.io.com/~jlockett/RPG/Traveller/ <BR><BR>This is another dead site.&nbsp; Abandoned in 1997 this half&nbsp; finished<BR>site is filled with broken links.&nbsp; So why review it?&nbsp; Well, there<BR>are a few items of potential interest&nbsp; here.&nbsp; This&nbsp; site&nbsp; is&nbsp; for<BR>playing Traveller using the GURPS system ...&nbsp; written&nbsp; before&nbsp; GT<BR>was published.&nbsp; The theme of the site (if you couldn't tell&nbsp; from<BR>the title) is a starport home page.&nbsp; There&nbsp; are&nbsp; three&nbsp; sections:<BR>"Translation Services", "Embassy Row", and "Marketplatz".<BR><BR>The "Translation Services" section contains links to a number&nbsp; of<BR>simple CT and MT rule conversions to GURPS.&nbsp; On the downside many<BR>of these links are broken.<BR><BR>The "Embassy&nbsp; Row"&nbsp; section&nbsp; contains&nbsp; alien&nbsp; conversions.&nbsp; GURPS<BR>racial packages for Hivers (broken&nbsp; link),&nbsp; Gvegh&nbsp; Vargr&nbsp; (broken<BR>link), and T4's Alien Archive (half completed).<BR><BR>The "Marketplatz" section is equipment.&nbsp; It is divided into three<BR>companies:&nbsp; "Luwas, Tsefe &amp; Drummond, Naval Architects, LSE, LIC"<BR>provides&nbsp; ships.&nbsp; "Mala"&nbsp; provides&nbsp; vehicles.&nbsp; "Dialog"&nbsp; provides<BR>weapons (great name for an&nbsp; arms&nbsp; dealer!).&nbsp; Unfortuneately&nbsp; Mala<BR>and Dialog have not been done yet.&nbsp; Fortuneately "LTD" has and it<BR>contains 3 starships.<BR>- - The Abelard class Survey Cruiser is a 400 dton TL12&nbsp; ship&nbsp; with<BR>&nbsp; an Excel spreadsheet of the SSDS design.<BR>- - The Battle class Military Destroyer is a 1000 dton TL12 ship.<BR>- - The Samarkand class Far Trader is a 200 dton TL12 ship complete<BR>&nbsp; with revenue analysis.<BR><BR>In summary the only real thing of value here are&nbsp; the&nbsp; GT&nbsp; racial<BR>packages for the T4 aliens.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:28:54 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Re : Indefinite life span<BR><BR>This article was on the AP newswire yesterday:<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Olshansky said the developed nations of the<BR>&gt;world have already enjoyed the most dramatic<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; improvement in life expectancy in human history.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; An American female born in 1900 had a life<BR>&gt;expectancy of 48.9 years. By 1995, life<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; expectancy for a newborn girl was 79.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And there continues to be small gains. Death<BR>&gt;rates from 1985 to 1995 declined by 1.5<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; percent in France, 1.2 percent in Japan and 0.4<BR>&gt;percent in the U.S., said Olshansky.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Projecting these trends forward, he said, would<BR>&gt;give a combined male and female life<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; expectancy of 85 years in France by 2033 and in<BR>&gt;Japan in 2035. Americans would not<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; achieve a life expectancy of 85 until 2182,<BR>&gt;Olshansky said.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The Social Security Administration (news - web<BR>&gt;sites) has forecast that U.S. life expectancy<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; at birth will rise to 79.3 years for males and<BR>&gt;83.9 years for females by 2070. But to achieve<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; this, said Olshansky, would require a faster<BR>&gt;decline in death rates for all ages.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>I have to wonder if life expectancy in the U.S. was broken down by<BR>socio-economic groups whether the life expectancy for certain groups in the<BR>U.S. wouldn't be reflective of rates in other countries. More plainly,<BR>separate out the lower income socio-economic groups who have little access<BR>to health care. Would the average life expectancy rise dramatically?<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:45:38 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Looking for a home<BR><BR>Hello Leonard,<BR><BR>&gt;F should be white, with O and A being light blue.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Why? Because since green is *not* a possible color for a star, but it's<BR>&gt;been used in *so* much bad SF, I get bugged when I see something that<BR>&gt;even *implies* that stars are green.<BR><BR>I don't have a problem with using White or light blue or purple for that<BR>matter &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; What I'd like to be able to do is create a map that is<BR>usable and clearly delineated.&nbsp; White in the old Traveller set up meant a<BR>planet in the star system without water if I recall correctly.&nbsp; But, it<BR>does make sense to use white for F and light blue for A's and O's.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Now, for the final question on stars: Giants should likely be considered<BR>to use a Larger Circle?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:47:00 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: RE: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>Hello PLST,<BR><BR>&gt;You sign your emails "Hal" and you can't guess the obveous one?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Ships Computer: "Dave?&nbsp; I have to tell you something.&nbsp; The&nbsp; AE-35<BR>&gt;&nbsp; unit will suffer 100% failure&nbsp; within&nbsp; 48&nbsp; hours.&nbsp; I&nbsp; recommend<BR>&gt;&nbsp; complete replacement of the unit."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Dave (Ship's Pilot): "What's wrong with it, Hal?"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Ship's Computer: "I have no information on that.&nbsp; I enjoy working<BR>&gt;&nbsp; with humans and I have every confidence in the mission."<BR><BR>Wise guy eh? &lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:19:46 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Remember that the English upper classes came from France -- Norman<BR>&gt;&gt; Conquest, 1066, and all that.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bit of trivia:&nbsp; This explains why there are different&nbsp; words&nbsp; for<BR>&gt; meats as opposed to the animals they come from.&nbsp; A peasant&nbsp; would<BR>&gt; see a bovine and call it a cow, a French-speaking noble would see<BR>&gt; bovine meat on his plate and call it a cow ... but the French for<BR>&gt; cow is "beouff" (sp?).&nbsp; Over the years that became&nbsp; "beef".&nbsp; Same<BR>&gt; story for pig and porc (pork), etc.&nbsp; The peasants didn't&nbsp; get&nbsp; to<BR>&gt; eat cows or pigs ... but did eat chicken.&nbsp; Thus, unlike for&nbsp; cows<BR>&gt; and pigs, the word for the chicken animal and&nbsp; the&nbsp; chicken&nbsp; meat<BR>&gt; are the same.<BR><BR>Except for some places in the old French empire (somewhere in Southeast Asia), where all meat ended up being called 'boeff'. Chicken is named, in this patois, 'boueff what fly'. ;-)<BR><BR>The Food Channel has some weird stuff on sometimes...<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:23:46 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)<BR><BR>Ethan Henry wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Hey Doug, better up that memory now.&nbsp; We're paying $106 for 256 Meg DIMMs.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; *Where*? We just got quoted $131 for 256 meg, 133 DIMMs. And that's<BR>&gt;&gt; *dealer* price, not retail. Then again, it's Kingston.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; $123 here for a 256 mes PC133 stick... CANADIAN. Haw!<BR>&gt; (I think that's about $88 US dollars).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; BTW, on a related note...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Can any of our UK readers explain why they don't buy everything<BR>&gt; outside of the UK? Any consumer good, especially electronics,<BR>&gt; seems to cost the same in pounds as it does in dollars here. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Which is wierd when you consider that the pound is worth nearly<BR>&gt; $2.50 CDN.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; If you wanted to buy a high-end piece of gear, like a camcorder,<BR>&gt; it seems like it would be cheaper to get a cheap flight to Canada<BR>&gt; and buy it here, cost of the flight included. What gives?<BR><BR>They do. Hence wonderful little innovations like:<BR><BR>http://www.newscientist.com/dailynews/news.jsp?id=ns9999452<BR><BR>Big Brother is Here...and his name is Profit. Vilani Megacorps would LOVE this little piece of technology.<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:25:52 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR><BR>OK, this isn't exactly state-of-the-art penguin technology, but I thought<BR>the TML assemblage might find the following article of interest:<BR><BR>http://www.ssgfx.com/nfa/ROSCO/<BR><BR>(Star Wars, it *ain't*!)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:35:09 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>Niko Mikkanen wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Hi all. I'm a newbie here, but it seems a good time to open my mouth a<BR>&gt; little... <BR><BR>Snip excellent analysis of the design.<BR><BR>&gt; (A sidenote: I have only recently began playing Traveller, so I'm not<BR>&gt; actually all that familiar with the game system. I'm approaching this<BR>&gt; problem from the other end, the Real Life...)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Niko "GNiko" Mikkanen<BR><BR>Certainly, please do. <BR><BR>David, one of the problems with FFS1 is the gawd-awful performance of the firearms design system at the weird design edge, such as 20mm sniper rifles.<BR><BR>My suggestion is to go get 3G3:<BR><BR>http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/10012.html<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:29:53 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...<BR><BR>This isn't even remotely Traveller-related, so my apologies in advance.<BR>I'm posting this here because it's the only way I can be sure of not<BR>missing anyone.<BR><BR>I need a rough head-count of the folks that are planning or have talked<BR>about attending the ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot and anticipate staying<BR>with Lori and I (Jesse, Doug, Glenn, others?) I don't think there will be<BR>a problem but it looks like we might have a fairly full house this time!<BR><BR>Please let me know ASAP.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:45:21 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR><BR>ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR><BR>Too funny!<BR><BR>Jesse<BR><BR>"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety<BR>deserve neither liberty nor safety."<BR>- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759<BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Mark F. Cook<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:26 AM<BR>&gt; To: Traveller Mail List<BR>&gt; Subject: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; OK, this isn't exactly state-of-the-art penguin technology, but I thought<BR>&gt; the TML assemblage might find the following article of interest:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; http://www.ssgfx.com/nfa/ROSCO/<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; (Star Wars, it *ain't*!)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Mark C.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:46:57 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long<BR><BR>Ethan Henry wrote:<BR>&gt; Can any of our UK readers explain why they don't buy everything<BR>&gt; outside of the UK? Any consumer good, especially electronics,<BR>&gt; seems to cost the same in pounds as it does in dollars here. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Which is wierd when you consider that the pound is worth nearly<BR>&gt; $2.50 CDN.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; If you wanted to buy a high-end piece of gear, like a camcorder,<BR>&gt; it seems like it would be cheaper to get a cheap flight to Canada<BR>&gt; and buy it here, cost of the flight included. What gives?<BR><BR><BR><BR>You mean apart from different power&nbsp; supply&nbsp; voltages&nbsp; and&nbsp; other<BR>inconsistencies?<BR><BR>&lt;rant&gt;<BR><BR>This&nbsp; is&nbsp; a&nbsp; twisted&nbsp; trade&nbsp; war&nbsp; going&nbsp; on&nbsp; right&nbsp; now&nbsp;&nbsp; between<BR>manufacturers and UK consumers.<BR><BR>In the car market people found if they went across the channel to<BR>the European mainland prices were upto a third cheaper, but&nbsp; many<BR>car dealers refused to sell when they found out the car was going<BR>to go back to the UK.&nbsp; After years of complaint&nbsp; the&nbsp; authorities<BR>stepped in and investigated: the dealers were bowing&nbsp; to&nbsp; illegal<BR>pressure&nbsp; from&nbsp; the&nbsp; car&nbsp; manufacturerers.&nbsp; UK&nbsp; car&nbsp; prices&nbsp; have<BR>recently been forced down by about 10% but six months ago one car<BR>maker CEO stated that if prices dropped to&nbsp; be&nbsp; inline&nbsp; with&nbsp; the<BR>rest of Europe it would affect 2nd&nbsp; hand&nbsp; prices&nbsp; too,&nbsp; and&nbsp; they<BR>thought what most people were concerned with was&nbsp; total&nbsp; cost&nbsp; of<BR>ownership of the lifetime of the car rather&nbsp; that&nbsp; new&nbsp; car&nbsp; list<BR>prices ... so they intended&nbsp; to&nbsp; keep&nbsp; prices&nbsp; high&nbsp; to&nbsp; 'protect<BR>consumers investment'.<BR><BR>A supermarket chain started to&nbsp; import&nbsp; jeans&nbsp; from&nbsp; the&nbsp; US.&nbsp; (I<BR>think they were Wrangler.)&nbsp; They are just ordinary jeans&nbsp; in&nbsp; the<BR>US market but are sold in the UK as "designer label".&nbsp; The&nbsp; jeans<BR>manufacturer took the supermarket to court on&nbsp; the&nbsp; grounds&nbsp; that<BR>selling their jeans cheaply was injurious the the brand's image.<BR><BR>For cameras, walkmans, and other items, buying them in the US&nbsp; or<BR>elsewhere voids warrenties and&nbsp; service&nbsp; agreements&nbsp; if&nbsp; imported<BR>into the UK.&nbsp; So if your&nbsp; Canadian&nbsp; bought&nbsp; Sony&nbsp; camcorder&nbsp; (for<BR>example) breaks down a month after you've bought it Sony UK&nbsp; will<BR>refuse to deal with the case ... you have to send it to a&nbsp; friend<BR>in North America who can then get Sony US or Canada&nbsp; to&nbsp; fix&nbsp; the<BR>problem.&nbsp; (Sony UK is a different company to Sony&nbsp; US&nbsp; even&nbsp; they<BR>they are both owned by the same parent&nbsp; company.&nbsp; The&nbsp; same&nbsp; goes<BR>for the other big brand names too)<BR><BR>As for Sony Playstation 2 ... the&nbsp; UK&nbsp; release&nbsp; was&nbsp; just&nbsp; before<BR>Christmas.&nbsp; There weren't even enough machines provided&nbsp; to&nbsp; fill<BR>all the pre-orders (so none went on the shelves).&nbsp; The&nbsp; US&nbsp; price<BR>equivalent was GBP200.00, Sony's price was&nbsp; GBP300.00&nbsp; and&nbsp; quite<BR>openly admitted that's what they thought the&nbsp; market&nbsp; would&nbsp; bear<BR>(actually they have traded 2nd&nbsp; hand&nbsp; over&nbsp; the&nbsp; net&nbsp; for&nbsp; up&nbsp; to<BR>GBP1000.00!).&nbsp; Meanwhile, the original Playstation&nbsp; was&nbsp; given&nbsp; a<BR>new case and new&nbsp; name&nbsp; ("PS One")&nbsp; and&nbsp; relaunched&nbsp; just&nbsp; before<BR>Christmas too: many clueless consumers got suckered on that one!<BR><BR>A motorcycle dealer started to buy Honda motorbikes built in&nbsp; the<BR>UK for the Japanese market ... for sale in the UK.&nbsp; (Bikes&nbsp; built<BR>in the UK, shipped to Japan, shipped back ... were&nbsp; cheaper&nbsp; than<BR>those built in the UK for the UK)&nbsp; Honda took them&nbsp; to&nbsp; court&nbsp; on<BR>the grounds that Honda UK has&nbsp; exclusive&nbsp; rights&nbsp; to&nbsp; sell&nbsp; *new*<BR>Honda motorcycles in the UK.&nbsp; Honda&nbsp; also&nbsp; tried&nbsp; to&nbsp; claim&nbsp; that<BR>bikes built for the Japanese market were not&nbsp; made&nbsp; to&nbsp; the&nbsp; same<BR>standards as those for&nbsp; the&nbsp; UK&nbsp; market&nbsp; and&nbsp; may&nbsp; be&nbsp; considered<BR>dangerous&nbsp; under&nbsp; UK&nbsp; law.&nbsp; So&nbsp; now&nbsp; 'imported'&nbsp; bikes&nbsp;&nbsp; need&nbsp;&nbsp; a<BR>government inspection before they're allowed on the road, and&nbsp; of<BR>course there is a growing backlog of inspections.<BR><BR>There is an annoying UK law that says&nbsp; no&nbsp; UK&nbsp; company&nbsp; can&nbsp; sell<BR>movies (VHS or DVD) that have not&nbsp; yet&nbsp; been&nbsp; classified&nbsp; by&nbsp; the<BR>censor.&nbsp; The Federation Against Copyright Theft&nbsp; (a&nbsp; trade&nbsp; body)<BR>keeps an eye out for commercial importers of new DVDs&nbsp; and&nbsp; takes<BR>them to court.&nbsp; Fortuneately,&nbsp; this&nbsp; does&nbsp; not&nbsp; apply&nbsp; to&nbsp; non-UK<BR>exporters into the UK (like&nbsp; Amazon.com)&nbsp; so&nbsp; as&nbsp; more&nbsp; and&nbsp; more<BR>people get internet access (we're still a little behind the US on<BR>this) there will be more&nbsp; international&nbsp; trading&nbsp; (although&nbsp; many<BR>'plebs' are still caught out by the region coding obsenity).<BR><BR>Recognising the threat of the internet to&nbsp; their&nbsp; bloated&nbsp; profit<BR>margins the cosmetics industry has a&nbsp; propaganda&nbsp; campaign&nbsp; going<BR>warning people to&nbsp; beware&nbsp; of&nbsp; all&nbsp; the&nbsp; 'massive&nbsp; counterfeiting<BR>scams' on the internet (or of clearance stock being well past its<BR>sell by date).&nbsp; So&nbsp; some&nbsp; people&nbsp; are&nbsp; afraid&nbsp; to&nbsp; buy&nbsp; expensive<BR>perfumes on the net despite discounts of upto 50%.<BR><BR>&lt;/rant&gt;<BR><BR>In summary: manufacturers continue to make buying internationally<BR>inconveinent in a number of ways while over-charging&nbsp; in&nbsp; the&nbsp; UK<BR>domestic market.&nbsp; Clued-up consumers are getting around this&nbsp; but<BR>it takes effort and there are risks.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:53:23 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>http://www.msn.com/<BR>news article: <BR>Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>New research indicates that an asteroid or comet impact wiped out the<BR>pre-dinosaurs, leading to the dinosaur era.&nbsp; It is already well<BR>established that an asteroid impact wiped out the dinosaurs, leading to<BR>the current era.<BR><BR>The scientists note that asteroid impacts that wipe out all life seem to<BR>occur every 100 million years or so, and that is how long a given era's<BR>life has to evolve a species with the intelligence to understand the<BR>problem and avoid it.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Maybe the Hindu understanding of a cycle that starts with Vishnu, ends<BR>with Kali, and starts again with Vishnu is much closer to truth than first<BR>appears.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Ob Traveller:&nbsp; Establishing an interstellar civilization fairly well<BR>guarantees that the species will survive naturally occurring asteroid<BR>impacts.&nbsp; However, the establishment of an interstellar civilization<BR>implies the ability to move large objects at very high velocities ...<BR>leading to inevitable destruction by near-c rocks!<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:02:16 -0600<BR>From: Eris Reddoch &lt;eris@pcola.gulf.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; note to other non-baseball fans:&nbsp; do not get within 20 feet of penguin boy<BR>&gt; &gt; during baseball season if there is a game on.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ok, fine. My ex-girlfriend is a Cubs fan. You learn to just shake your<BR>&gt; head and dust them off occasionally. :-)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; I don't like baseball.&nbsp; Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow.<BR><BR>That's why Baseball is America's favorite *pass time*, not<BR>favorite sport.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt; <BR><BR>There's nothing better than being able to go out to a game on a<BR>warm sunny afternoon and relax in the stands eating peanuts and<BR>drinking beer not having to pay really close attention unless you<BR>want to. You can chat with your friends, keep score, bounce the<BR>baby on your knee and not miss a play. You have time discuss and<BR>debate the strategy of the "hit and run" and "defensive<BR>positioning" with your friends before during and after every<BR>pitch. You are able to go to the concession stand, stand in line,<BR>buy a dog and a drink, walk back to your seat and have only<BR>missed two pitches. <BR><BR>At home you can go to the restroom *during* innings and not miss<BR>anything important...and if you do they'll replay it for you. <BR>Shoot, you can rock back in your lazeboy and take a 20 minute nap<BR>and only miss half an inning.&nbsp; And with all that you get to watch<BR>a game played with a stick and ball by men ranging in size from<BR>5'2" to 6'10" and in shapes ranging from slim to just plain fat,<BR>and everyone one of us can daydream that if we really, really<BR>wanted to we could do just as well as they do.&nbsp; <BR><BR>You can watch Major League games, minor league games, college or<BR>high school games, games of little leaguers, and even pick up<BR>games in the park, in empty lots and on the streets. You can even<BR>find games to *play in* if you're so inclined...and between<BR>innings you get to sit on a bench, drink beer and eat hotdogs.<BR>Spitting and grabbing your crotch aren't frowned upon and fights<BR>are community affairs where everyone participates and nobody<BR>really gets hurt.&nbsp; What more could an American man ask for in a<BR>pass time? &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>I'm a southern boy, but I've been a Yankee fan since I listened<BR>to Don Larson's perfect game on the radio in the Principal's<BR>office in 1956. I was a first grader sent down to the school<BR>office for some transgression that even I can't remember, the<BR>school secretary was out of the office, but Mr. Dixon, the<BR>Principal, was in his office listening to the game. I stuck my<BR>head in, said "what are you listening to?" and he said "a piece<BR>of history" and waved me inside. Soon we were both cheering on<BR>every pitch and after the last out he hoisted me up on his<BR>shoulders and we paraded around the offices and halls of the<BR>school. By the time we'd stopped celebrating Mr. Dixon wasn't in<BR>the mood to be forbidding or stern, and he still didn't know<BR>exactly why I was in his office in the first place, so he just<BR>told me "never do *that* again", "I told him I wouldn't", and was<BR>a Yankee fan for life.&nbsp; Every time the Yankees played an<BR>afternoon World Series game for the next 5 years, Mr. Dixon would<BR>send for me and we listened to the games in his office. Sure I<BR>missed a few classes, but I learned more from his example than I<BR>missed in the classroom.<BR><BR>Ob Trav:&nbsp; Baseball lives IMTU...that's all I can say. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Eris<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:57:54 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR><BR>Yes, I now find that it's possible to inhale McDonald's milkshake after all....<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>Jesse Degraff wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Too funny!<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei, <BR>Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."<BR>- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:57:44 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: System defenses<BR><BR>Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>&gt; I see the Ine Givar on the same footing as the Red Brigade or<BR>&gt; the Weathermen. They have absolutely no chance of overthrowing<BR>&gt; the Imperium or even undermining the government of a local world.<BR><BR>They might not be able to overthrow the 3I&nbsp; but&nbsp; in&nbsp; some&nbsp; places<BR>they are quite significant.&nbsp; Check out the 5FW board&nbsp; game:&nbsp; they<BR>field a significant military force on Efate.&nbsp; Using the rules&nbsp; on<BR>army size by population you can get an estimate the size&nbsp; of&nbsp; the<BR>non-combatant supporting population.&nbsp; I did this analysis once on<BR>the TML but (a) have lost it and (b) don't have 5FW&nbsp; with&nbsp; me&nbsp; at<BR>work to recalculate&nbsp; it.&nbsp; They&nbsp; may&nbsp; be&nbsp; inferior&nbsp; in&nbsp; number&nbsp; to<BR>Efate's main&nbsp; forces,&nbsp; but&nbsp; they&nbsp; are&nbsp; way&nbsp; larger&nbsp; than&nbsp; a&nbsp; mere<BR>terrorist group.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:48:17 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; BTW, on a related note...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Can any of our UK readers explain why they don't buy everything<BR>&gt; outside of the UK? Any consumer good, especially electronics,<BR>&gt; seems to cost the same in pounds as it does in dollars here. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Which is wierd when you consider that the pound is worth nearly<BR>&gt; $2.50 CDN.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; If you wanted to buy a high-end piece of gear, like a camcorder,<BR>&gt; it seems like it would be cheaper to get a cheap flight to Canada<BR>&gt; and buy it here, cost of the flight included. What gives?<BR><BR>Well, Canada uses 120 V power, the UK uses 240. Canada uses NTSC video,<BR>the UK uses PAL. Shall I continue?<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:31:50 GMT<BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR><BR>&gt;Every English schoolboy knows "Merde". :-) Subtitled films often don't translate "merci", "bonjour", etc. <BR>&gt;I think most English people know a couple of words (literally...) in French, German and maybe even<BR>&gt;Spanish, they just can't say them very well and can't build them into sentences. :-)<BR><BR>un bier, s'il vous plait...<BR>ein Bier, bitte...<BR>un cerveza, por favor...<BR><BR>(from memory, so I may have the spelling or genders wrong ;-)&nbsp; )<BR><BR>On a different level, I can remember reading some of Dorothy L Sayer's<BR>_Lord Peter Wimsey_ books (written ~60 years ago), and in them the<BR>author would include dialogue or even entire paragraphs in French -<BR>clearly working on the assumption that her (educated, English) readers<BR>would understand them without needing a translation.<BR><BR>Stephen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:31:40 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Eris Reddoch wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; There's nothing better than being able to go out to a game on a<BR>&gt; warm sunny afternoon and relax in the stands eating peanuts and<BR>&gt; drinking beer not having to pay really close attention unless you<BR>&gt; want to. You can chat with your friends, keep score, bounce the<BR>&gt; baby on your knee and not miss a play. You have time discuss and<BR>&gt; debate the strategy of the "hit and run" and "defensive<BR>&gt; positioning" with your friends before during and after every<BR>&gt; pitch. You are able to go to the concession stand, stand in line,<BR>&gt; buy a dog and a drink, walk back to your seat and have only<BR>&gt; missed two pitches. <BR><BR>Don't have a baby (and don't plan to), don't like warm beer, don't care<BR>about the score, and would like to chat with my friends about something<BR>that is actually interesting (unlike baseball strategy) in a comfortable<BR>place, with cushions, not in windy bleachers where my hair gets messed up<BR>and I have to stand in a line about as long as a comet tail if I should<BR>need to use the facilities.&nbsp; Don't like hot dogs much, and do not consider<BR>that stuff that pretends to be beer at ball parks "a drink".<BR><BR>&gt; At home you can go to the restroom *during* innings and not miss<BR>&gt; anything important...and if you do they'll replay it for you. <BR><BR>At home I can do something else!<BR><BR>&gt; Shoot, you can rock back in your lazeboy and take a 20 minute nap<BR>&gt; and only miss half an inning. <BR><BR>While the other inhabitants of the house, who might like to watch<BR>something that is actually interesting, groan "when is this @#$@#^$#<BR>exercise in futility going to be over?"<BR><BR>&gt; And with all that you get to watch a game played with a stick and ball<BR>&gt; by men ranging in size from 5'2" to 6'10" and in shapes ranging from<BR>&gt; slim to just plain fat, and everyone one of us can daydream that if we<BR>&gt; really, really wanted to we could do just as well as they do.<BR><BR>I'd rather watch J-League (soccer), where you have to have a good body,<BR>and being cute is a plus, and the game actually is interesting.&nbsp; Well,<BR>actually I'll watch most soccer games.&nbsp; But the J-League players are<BR>cuter.&nbsp; If I want to watch fat guys stand around in a field looking stupid<BR>and chewing tobacco, I will visit my family in Appalachia and look out the<BR>window.<BR><BR>Kiri&nbsp; ^_^<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3735<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-za04.mx.aol.com (rly-za04.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.100]) by air-za05.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:34:57 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:34:33 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA94908;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:32:16 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:31:45 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA94854<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:31:45 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:31:45 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102231831.NAA94854@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3735<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, February 23 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3736<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: The spirit of the game<BR>Rules question concerning GT<BR>Re: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long<BR>RE: System defenses<BR>All your base are belong to us!<BR>Re: Introduction to Traveller<BR>Re: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR>RE: What could go wrong?<BR>Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR>RE: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: Attn.: Penguin-Lovers<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: The spirit of the game<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR>Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR>Re: The spirit of the game<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:34:21 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>From: Eris Reddoch &lt;eris@pcola.gulf.net&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "That's why Baseball is America's favorite *pass time*, not<BR>favorite sport.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt;"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt; a snip of some of the many fine reasons baseball is great &gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "I'm a southern boy, but I've been a Yankee fan since I listened<BR>to Don Larson's perfect game on the radio in the Principal's office in <BR>1956."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Ob Trav:&nbsp; Baseball lives IMTU...that's all I can say. &lt;g&gt;"<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Reddoch,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you so much, sir, for your wonderful musings about our game.&nbsp; <BR>Baseball is IMTU too.&nbsp; Your principal, although a Yankee fan &lt;g&gt;, was a man <BR>of fine distinction and social graces.&nbsp; To have heard the Perfect Game, <BR>ahhh, well one can always wish.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I lived for a few years outside of Detroit in the late 60's.&nbsp; In '68, <BR>during the Tigers-Cardinals Series, my grammer school asked for the loan of <BR>TVs from parents so the games could be watched in each classroom.&nbsp; I <BR>remember being so proud, helping my father lug our black and white <BR>"portable" into class.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The look of shock and incomprehension on "younger" folks' faces when I <BR>tell them we watched baseball in school is wonderful.&nbsp; It's even better when <BR>I remind them that, even though we watched baseball, I still recieved a <BR>better education then they did.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As for the tatooed, pinchusioned, frenetic youth of today who complain <BR>that baseball is "too slow", may I suggest you set up a Ritalin drip on an <BR>IV and settle down for a time?&nbsp; It should be safe.&nbsp; After all, Ritalin is <BR>how they drugged you through school.&nbsp; You might just enjoy yourself.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen the Curmudgeon<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:32:28 -0800<BR>From: "Dave Strebe" &lt;strebe@intergate.bc.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur&nbsp; <BR>100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any <BR>traces of their presence that we would find now?<BR><BR>&gt; Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The scientists note that asteroid impacts that wipe out all life seem to<BR>&gt; occur every 100 million years or so, and that is how long a given era's<BR>&gt; life has to evolve a species with the intelligence to understand the<BR>&gt; problem and avoid it.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:22:27 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>Am Friday, February 23, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;This is an old strawman argument used to annoy Japanese martial artists who<BR>&gt; claim that American Karate (Aikido, Judo, whatever) practitioners will<BR>&gt; never really&nbsp;&nbsp; understand or practice "correctly", because they lack the<BR>&gt; proper "spirit."&nbsp; They usually make such a claim after they or their<BR>&gt; students lose to an American/Frenchman/Englishman/someother non-Japanese.&lt;<BR>Hmm, somehow reminds me of this Futurame episode, where Leelas old<BR>Sensei tells her that she, as a woman, cannot have the warriors<BR>spirit, and is therefore doomed to loose, even without fighting.<BR>("Want a rematch? I win again!")<BR><BR>&gt; Too weird.<BR>&gt; We are discussing this very thing on a martial list I am on right now.<BR>I am studying japanese, apart from law, and i have come across this particular<BR>attitude in a certain genre of japanese literature, the Nihonjinron.<BR>Some authors claim that outsiders cannot possibly understand things<BR>japanese, because you need the japanese mindset from childhood onward<BR>to truly capture the entirety of what these things mean.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:31:11 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Rules question concerning GT<BR><BR>In a recent game we had a certain problem concerning combat.<BR>The problem was that wearing Battledress, and getting PGMP-13 fire,<BR>there was only a very narrow window of survival for the PCs.<BR>Either the damage was too low, and there wouldnt even be a sign that<BR>he had just taken a hit, or the damage was too high, and he was toast.<BR>Between these two extremes (uninjured/gone for good) was only a tight<BR>margin of about 20 damage points.<BR>Is this intentional? In MT the dmg from any firearm was reduced by<BR>distance and there was a much wider range of survival than in GT. I<BR>have not yet found a rule to solve this problem in GT, but must admit<BR>that I have only just begun playing with Gurps rules...<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:39:31 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long<BR><BR>Am Friday, February 23, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR><BR>&gt; In summary: manufacturers continue to make buying internationally<BR>&gt; inconveinent in a number of ways while over-charging&nbsp; in&nbsp; the&nbsp; UK<BR>&gt; domestic market.&nbsp; Clued-up consumers are getting around this&nbsp; but<BR>&gt; it takes effort and there are risks.<BR><BR>Well said. The same goes for the rest of Europe as well, although some<BR>of the time, prices are a bit more moderate. But thats probably what<BR>you get for living on an island...<BR>With neighboring countries, people tend to shop across the border more<BR>often, but in general the same tactics are used by manufactures in the<BR>rest of Europe, as well.<BR>Volker<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:39:05 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: System defenses<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;I see the Ine Givar on the same footing as the Red Brigade or the<BR>&gt;Weathermen. They have absolutely no chance of overthrowing the Imperium<BR>or<BR>&gt;even undermining the government of a local world. That doesn't mean that<BR>&gt;they are not dangerous, disruptive or a problem for security forces. It <BR>&gt;just means that they will ultimately fail in their objective. <BR><BR>excerpt from a confidential presentation by Chief Inspector von Pong,<BR>Regina Subsector Special Police, to new agents, about 50-1111:<BR><BR>"RSSP's charter, as you know, is to support local law enforcement agencies<BR>with intelligence and other services about interstellar organized crime. <BR>Let me now present for you the threat picture with respect to interstellar<BR>organized crime in the Duchy of Regina:<BR><BR>"Number One on the threat list is the Ine Givar.&nbsp; During the recent war, I<BR>was part of His Grace's liaison team with Imperial Naval Intelligence. <BR>Far and away the greatest cause for concern and even fear among us was the<BR>Ine Givar -- we feared them much more than the Zhodani navy.&nbsp; They pervade<BR>the Spinward Marches.&nbsp; <BR><BR>"Soon after the war started, we concluded from our analysis that every<BR>major world in the Marches had a large Ine Givar military force.&nbsp; During<BR>the war, they would engage local and Imperial units, and were armed to the<BR>top of local standards.&nbsp; Every time we thought we had destroyed them on a<BR>world, they would disappear for a few weeks and then rise up again with<BR>the same strength, fully equipped, and with no diminution in command<BR>control or logistics functions, or in combat effectiveness.&nbsp; <BR><BR>"We believed that the Zhodani were resupplying destroyed Ine Givar units<BR>with troops and materiel.&nbsp; When we defeated the second wave of Ine Givar,<BR>we found that we had been correct as to materiel, but not as to troops. <BR>There were only a very few Zhodani advisors serving with the Ine Givar,<BR>perhaps one-tenth of one percent of total personnel in an Ine Givar unit.<BR><BR>"The Ine Givar were extremely effectively recruiting and training from the<BR>populations of Imperial worlds, in the middle of a major war.<BR><BR>"And the worlds I'm talking about are Efate, Jewell, Rhylanor, Regina.&nbsp; <BR><BR>"Now that the war is over, the Zhodani are, so far as we know, not<BR>supplying the Ine Givar with money or equipment.&nbsp; The Ine Givar, however,<BR>are able to supply themselves with seemingly limitless manpower.&nbsp; They are<BR>using that resource to obtain money and weapons, and rebuild themselves to<BR>their pre-war levels.&nbsp; Here is an overview of known Ine Givar operations<BR>in that regard ...."<BR><BR>I based this analysis on the Fifth Frontier War wargame.&nbsp; The Outworld<BR>Coalition player gets ten Ine Givar units.&nbsp; Three start on Efate, one on<BR>Ruie, and the others whereever desired.&nbsp; Each has a strength equal to 10%<BR>of the defense force of the world.&nbsp; (Every troop unit in 5FW takes<BR>casulaties in increments of 10% of the original size.)&nbsp; When an Ine Givar<BR>unit takes casualties, it may become "covert" in the next turn, and it<BR>builds its strength up 10% per turn until 100% or until the player makes<BR>it "overt" again.&nbsp; It may not be engaged when it is covert.&nbsp; The only way<BR>to destroy an Ine Givar unit is to inflict casualties that bring it to<BR>zero.&nbsp; <BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:49:05 -0600<BR>From: Leslie Bates &lt;lesbates@minn.net&gt;<BR>Subject: All your base are belong to us!<BR><BR>&gt;X-Sender: danawolfe@uncia.com (Unverified)<BR>&gt;X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)<BR>&gt;Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:07:23 -0600<BR>&gt;To: lesbates@minn.net<BR>&gt;From: danawolfe@polaris.uncia.com<BR>&gt;Subject: All your base are belong to us!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~pyang/base/allyourbase.swf<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Something my landlord forwarded to me.<BR><BR>An adventure in bad translation.<BR><BR><BR>Les<BR><BR>=======================================================<BR>Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.<BR>=======================================================<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:41:33 -0600<BR>From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Introduction to Traveller<BR><BR>William Barnett-Lewis wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Oh my little stars and comets... (Double points to those who remember where<BR>&gt; that came from... :)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Ken,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Thank you.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; William<BR><BR>You bet.<BR><BR>Kenneth.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:43:22 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR><BR>Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;Yes, I now find that it's possible to inhale McDonald's milkshake after <BR>&gt;all....<BR><BR>Rob, I'd have a doctor check that. :^)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:53:40 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Wise guy eh? &lt;grin&gt;"<BR><BR><BR>Hal,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; How could I have forgotten this?&nbsp; You ask for annoying ship's sytems <BR>problems and I space off the silliest one I ever came across and played <BR>against.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As a PC, my fellow traders and I had been looking to "flesh" out our <BR>crew without hiring NPCs (we'd had a couple of bad ones lately).&nbsp; After <BR>nosing around a bit, we happened upon three used robots; each had steward <BR>skills, one had a engineering slant, the other two cargo.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Of course there was a slight problem with them, that's why they were so <BR>cheap.&nbsp; But our mech, comp, and electronics guys looked them over and <BR>decided they were worth the credits.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Everything went well unitl the first meal was served in jump.&nbsp; We found <BR>out rather quickly that we had the Three Stooge-droids on board.&nbsp; Corraling <BR>them proved difficult, they did all the same slapstick the real Stooges did <BR>but without the props.&nbsp; A humano-form 'bot trying to hit you on the head <BR>with a hammer or poke you in the eyes isn't much fun.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; It was an interesting little firefight; some PCs wanting to turn them <BR>into scrap while others wanted to subdue them without too much damage for <BR>resale.&nbsp; All three got shot to pieces eventually, especially after one of <BR>the "resale" PCs got boinked with a pipe.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Our engineer swept up the mess, locked himself in engineering, and put <BR>together a robot drive lackey out of the scrapped parts.&nbsp; It was a weird and <BR>ugly thing that made strange noise and quickly came to be known as "Shemp".<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; We hired two NPCs at the next port and dodged a couple lawsuits from <BR>disgruntled passengers for a while.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen E. "Guards seize them!" Whipsnade<BR>P.S.&nbsp; I guess the GM had either watched Short Circuit or was ticked off by <BR>our refusal to hire NPCs.&nbsp; They were his favorite, and most overused, plot <BR>technique.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:59:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>Dave Strebe writes:<BR>&gt; So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur&nbsp; <BR>&gt; 100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any <BR>&gt; traces of their presence that we would find now?<BR><BR>I assume you mean 100 million years, and maybe but likely not<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:03:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR><BR>Volker writes:<BR>&gt; In a recent game we had a certain problem concerning combat.<BR>&gt; The problem was that wearing Battledress, and getting PGMP-13 fire,<BR>&gt; there was only a very narrow window of survival for the PCs.<BR>&gt; Either the damage was too low, and there wouldnt even be a sign that<BR>&gt; he had just taken a hit, or the damage was too high, and he was toast.<BR>&gt; Between these two extremes (uninjured/gone for good) was only a tight<BR>&gt; margin of about 20 damage points.<BR>&gt; Is this intentional? In MT the dmg from any firearm was reduced by<BR>&gt; distance and there was a much wider range of survival than in GT. I<BR>&gt; have not yet found a rule to solve this problem in GT, but must admit<BR>&gt; that I have only just begun playing with Gurps rules...<BR><BR>It's probably realistic, but is frequently problematic for gameplay.&nbsp; Any <BR>weapon that can punch through several cm steel is barely going to notice <BR>a human body.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:10:49 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>There's a sig file I'd found over a year ago that I unfortunately lost<BR>that's relevant.&nbsp; Something like:<BR><BR>Some of the more conservative dinosaurs were concerned with the new iridium<BR>fusion reactor, but the main consensus was "Aw, what could happen?"<BR><BR>EXTREMELY para-phrased I'm afraid.&nbsp; The original was written much better.&nbsp; I<BR>distinctly remember the iridium fusion part though :)<BR><BR>Jesse<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Anthony Jackson<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 11:00 AM<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Cc: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Dave Strebe writes:<BR>&gt; &gt; So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent<BR>&gt; dinosaur<BR>&gt; &gt; 100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they<BR>&gt; have left any<BR>&gt; &gt; traces of their presence that we would find now?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I assume you mean 100 million years, and maybe but likely not<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:20:20<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Attn.: Penguin-Lovers<BR><BR>At 10:46 AM 2/23/2001 +0100, you wrote:<BR>&gt;While browsing the web about my other hobby, Manga and anime, I found<BR>&gt;this link...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;http://www.fredart.com/fredart/artpage.php3?src=&amp;ft=co&amp;fn=11<BR><BR>Hubba Hubba!!<BR><BR>&gt;Penguinlovers enjoy :-)<BR><BR>We prefer to be called admirers.<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:50:49<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>At 11:12 AM 2/23/2001 +0200, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Hi all. I'm a newbie here, but it seems a good time to open my mouth a<BR>&gt;little...<BR><BR>&lt;snip excellent points&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;(A sidenote: I have only recently began playing Traveller, so I'm not<BR>&gt;actually all that familiar with the game system. I'm approaching this<BR>&gt;problem from the other end, the Real Life...)<BR><BR>Another sniper in our midst perhaps?&nbsp; Might we soon be shooting off to<BR>split the check three ways while the winner orders the lobster?<BR><BR>Your essay assignment:&nbsp; Laser weaponry in Traveller.&nbsp; What do you see as<BR>the advantages/disadvantages to personal lasers, and in what roles would<BR>they be found?<BR><BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>&nbsp; http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>limbs!"&nbsp; - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:32:31<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>At 07:21 AM 2/23/2001 -0500, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As for a "correct team", the Sox have always been more correct than<BR>&gt;&gt;those dratted Yankees and all the Series they bought.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Well, of course.&nbsp; The Sox have Spirit (Even if it's just the Bambino's), <BR>&gt;while the Yankees are just the best team money can buy.<BR><BR>Look, at least y'all aren't Giants fans.&nbsp; Between natural diasters like<BR>earthquakes and Barry Bonds, and having to play the bloody overpaid Braves,<BR>we haven't had a descent shot at the title since 1961!<BR><BR>At least the Dodgers (spit) are losing too.<BR><BR>&gt;I remember being at an '86 World Series party in Waltham (MA).&nbsp; This poor <BR>&gt;bastard had the bottle of champaign between his thighs, his thumbs on the <BR>&gt;cork...then the ball dropped.<BR><BR>Buckner will be avenged!<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:45:51<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>At 12:02 PM 2/23/2001 -0600, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; note to other non-baseball fans:&nbsp; do not get within 20 feet of penguin<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; boy during baseball season if there is a game on.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Ok, fine. My ex-girlfriend is a Cubs fan. You learn to just shake your<BR>&gt;&gt; head and dust them off occasionally. :-)<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; I don't like baseball.&nbsp; Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;That's why Baseball is America's favorite *pass time*, not<BR>&gt;favorite sport.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt; <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;There's nothing better than being able to go out to a game on a<BR>&gt;warm sunny afternoon...<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>Wow, that was beautifully done.<BR><BR>Last year, we took some friend's kids to Pac Bell Park for a game.&nbsp; Great<BR>summer day, Giants/Cubbies, so I could root for both sides.. perfect<BR>baseball day.<BR><BR>As we stood in Willie Mays Plaza it came out that these young'uns had<BR>*never* heard "Casey at the Bat."&nbsp; Shocking!&nbsp; I happen to know it by heart,<BR>so I started reciting it.&nbsp; I didn't notice that I was attracting an<BR>audience until I finished and the applause broke out.&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>Casey at the Bat:<BR><BR>http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~ghalbig/read/thayer.html<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.&nbsp; On the<BR>other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Rich Clancey<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:23:20<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR><BR>At 09:25 AM 2/23/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;OK, this isn't exactly state-of-the-art penguin technology, but I thought<BR>&gt;the TML assemblage might find the following article of interest:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;http://www.ssgfx.com/nfa/ROSCO/<BR><BR>LOL!<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;(Star Wars, it *ain't*!)<BR><BR>Oh, I don't know Mark.. small, furry creatures taking out heavy armor..<BR>seems I saw that in some Star Wars film or another...<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>&nbsp; http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.<BR>- -Chicago reader, 10/15/82<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:08:22 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:53:23 -0800 (PST)<BR>&gt;From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR><BR>Glenn, this was also on the front page of the Oregonian today.<BR><BR>While it's interesting, I find it sad that it comes as such a surprise<BR>to the general populace, considering that this information has been<BR>common knowledge (in the scientific community) for *decades*,<BR>at the very least. Here's just a thumbnail timeline of the known<BR>extinctions:<BR><BR>- -650 million years - Precambrian mass extinction (70% of all life<BR>on earth perished.)<BR>- -543-510 million years - Cambrian mass extinction (4 in this<BR>period, actually.)<BR>- -450 million years - Ordovician mass extinction.<BR>- -360 million years - Devonian mass extinction.<BR>- -250 million years - Permian period mass extinction (prior to the<BR>evolution of cockroaches, I might add.) This was the most devastating<BR>extinction in earth history. Between 90% and 95% of all marine species<BR>perished.<BR>- -180 million years - Triassic mass extinction. 35% of all species perish.<BR>- -65 million years - End-Cretaceous (KT) mass extinction. This is the<BR>dinosaur killer. 85% of all terrestrial species perished.<BR><BR>and I'm sure I missed at least a couple.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:16:38 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>&gt;On a different level, I can remember reading some of Dorothy L Sayer's<BR>&gt;_Lord Peter Wimsey_ books (written ~60 years ago), and in them the<BR>&gt;author would include dialogue or even entire paragraphs in French -<BR>&gt;clearly working on the assumption that her (educated, English) readers<BR>&gt;would understand them without needing a translation.<BR><BR>Try reading an ancient history book from about the same time period. They've <BR>no qualms about dropping in classical greek. In the Greek alphabet.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:22:24 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>&gt;So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur <BR>&gt;100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any <BR>&gt;traces of their presence that we would find now?<BR><BR>100,000 million years ago is ten times the age of the universe, <BR>approximately. But I understand what you're trying to say. There are fossils <BR>of actual dinosaurs, so there's a pretty good chance we'd have fossils of <BR>them, or their immediate "primate-brained" ancestors.<BR><BR>Ummm, what else. The Nazca Lines would say "Hello, monkey successors! Sorry <BR>we missed you!"<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:28:06 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR><BR>At 09:25 AM 2/23/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;OK, this isn't exactly state-of-the-art penguin technology, but I thought<BR>&gt;the TML assemblage might find the following article of interest:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;http://www.ssgfx.com/nfa/ROSCO/<BR><BR>Hm...I don't know FFS quite well enough, but...<BR>GT: 5mm TL 8 recoilless rifle, muzzle-loader, with HEAT (not allowed at 5mm,<BR>but who cares).&nbsp; Very low power, extremely short barrel<BR>Malf crit, Damage 1d(10), SS 11, Acc +4, 1/2D 20, Max 560, ROF 1/6, $125, weight 0.045 lb + .00125 lb/shot.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:29:02 -0800<BR>From: "Thing" &lt;thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>On Friday, February 23, 2001 10:32 AM<BR>Douglas E. Berry said,<BR><BR>&gt; Look, at least y'all aren't Giants fans.&nbsp; Between natural diasters like<BR>&gt; earthquakes and Barry Bonds, and having to play the bloody overpaid<BR>Braves,<BR>&gt; we haven't had a descent shot at the title since 1961!<BR><BR>You forgot lack of talent. ;)<BR><BR>*Duck*<BR><BR>G.D.D.<BR>ThingUnderTheStairs<BR>Minion of SheChemist and GothBunny<BR>Grand Master of the Electron Flow<BR>===========================<BR>"When you have shot and killed a man, you have in some measure clarified<BR>your attitude toward him.&nbsp; You have given a definite answer to a definite<BR>problem.&nbsp; For better or for worse, you have acted decisively. In a way the<BR>next move is up to him!" -Robert Heinlein<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:30:36 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "I'd rather watch J-League (soccer), where you have to have a good <BR>body, and being cute is a plus, and the game actually is interesting..."<BR><BR><BR>Ms. Morgan,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; While I agree with your assessment that football (soccer) players might <BR>be "cuter", I cannot even imagine a football game being remotely <BR>interesting.&nbsp; This, of course, is due to my upbringing.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Games go for 90 minutes, or more, and no one scores.&nbsp; Defense is far <BR>stronger and, thanks to the rules about passing the ball, the offense is <BR>pitifully weak.&nbsp; If a soccer game is scoreless after 90 minutes, you've been <BR>bored for that long.&nbsp; If a baseball game is scoreless after 9 innings, <BR>you've been watching two pitchers duel against each other, batter by batter.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; FIFA's rules about how games are won after regulation are asinine.&nbsp; In <BR>a World Cup recently, the title was awarded to the team that won a kicking <BR>contest!&nbsp; Here we have a true world championship.&nbsp; Teams vie for years to <BR>enter it, the playoffs take months, and finally we have, arguably, the two <BR>best teams in the entire world playing each other.&nbsp; If they are tied after <BR>regulation, the honest-to-god world title goes to the team who wins a <BR>kicking contest!&nbsp; Absurd!&nbsp; Idiocy!<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Just a small suggestion to FIFA; PLAY THE DAMN GAME.&nbsp; Only a wog or <BR>commie could have come up with the system you have now.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Imagine, the Super Bowl tied after 4 quarters.&nbsp; Do we keep playing?&nbsp; <BR>Nope, let's have a field goal contest.&nbsp; The World Series tied after 6 games <BR>and 9 innnings?&nbsp; Home run derby of course!&nbsp; The NBA championships?&nbsp; A free <BR>throw contest.&nbsp; Sound stupid?&nbsp; Of course it does.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Don't expect North America to take football seriously until you let a <BR>team WIN the world championship game.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>P.S.&nbsp; As to the upsurge in football's popularity in the US, don't bet on it. <BR>&nbsp; My grandfather played in a pro league in Texas during the early 1900s.&nbsp; It <BR>never came to anything.&nbsp; Once the current US women's team grows old or <BR>breaks up, the hype will die down too.&nbsp; We've too many sports choices for <BR>football to succeed now.&nbsp; Our vesion of "footie" is baseball; the old game <BR>everyone learns to love as a kid.&nbsp; It's too late for football to gain that <BR>status in the US.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:47:02 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Here's just a thumbnail timeline of the known extinctions:<BR>- -650 million years - Precambrian mass extinction (70% of all life<BR>on earth perished.)<BR>- -543-510 million years - Cambrian mass extinction (4 in this<BR>period, actually.)<BR>- -450 million years - Ordovician mass extinction.<BR>- -360 million years - Devonian mass extinction.<BR>- -250 million years - Permian period mass extinction (prior to the<BR>evolution of cockroaches, I might add.) This was the most<BR>devastating extinction in earth history. Between 90% and 95% of all marine <BR>species perished.<BR>- -180 million years - Triassic mass extinction. 35% of all species<BR>perish.<BR>- -65 million years - End-Cretaceous (KT) mass extinction. This is the<BR>dinosaur killer. 85% of all terrestrial species perished."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Cook,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you for the extinction timetables above.&nbsp; I wish I could have <BR>found and provided it during an earlier thread.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; In the "deep space refueling" thread last month, I mentioned the idea <BR>of "Nemesis"; an extremely distant stellar companion of Sol.&nbsp; When the <BR>reason for the "dinosaur killer" event was pretty much settled in favor of a <BR>planetoid impact, scientists began looking at the earlier episodes for <BR>similar clues.&nbsp; The idea was that a regular perturbtion of the Oort cloud <BR>and/or Kuiper belt might account for the extinctions.&nbsp; I believe there was <BR>even an attmept to calculate a probable orbit for "Nemesis".<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I don't know how far along the theory got or whether it was well <BR>recieved.&nbsp; I do know that I haven't read about it recently, so it might have <BR>failed in the face of new facts or detailed analysis.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As an aside, some scientists believe Earth is in the throes of another <BR>great extinction.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3736<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, February 23 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3737<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: The spirit of the game<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: world series<BR>: Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...<BR>RE: All your base are belong to us!<BR>RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: <BR>UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long<BR>Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>RE: world series<BR>RE: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: The spirit of the game<BR>Re: Democracy Now!<BR>Re: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR>Re: world series<BR>Temp Conversion<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: Temp Conversion<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:57:18 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Just a small suggestion to FIFA; PLAY THE DAMN GAME.&nbsp; Only a wog or <BR>&gt; commie could have come up with the system you have now.<BR><BR>LOL.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Don't expect North America to take football seriously until you let a <BR>&gt; team WIN the world championship game.<BR><BR>and the operative word in that sentence is "let"?<BR><BR>LOL.<BR><BR>It's so much fun to watch you, Larsen!<BR><BR>Kiri<BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:59:18 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As an aside, some scientists believe Earth is in the throes of another<BR>&gt;&nbsp; great extinction.<BR><BR>Well, it is.&nbsp; However, this one isn't caused by a cometary impact.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:00:05 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Volker wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I am studying japanese, apart from law, and i have come across this<BR>&gt; particular attitude in a certain genre of japanese literature, the<BR>&gt; Nihonjinron. Some authors claim that outsiders cannot possibly<BR>&gt; understand things japanese, because you need the japanese mindset from<BR>&gt; childhood onward to truly capture the entirety of what these things<BR>&gt; mean.<BR><BR>hmmmm....<BR><BR>What's really funny is when, if you were born outside of Japan (and btw,<BR>you can be part or even, like my friend Chika, 100% Japanese, but people<BR>who think like that still consider you an outsider), you DO demonstrate<BR>that you DID understand exactly what such and such meant.<BR><BR>I love the looks on their faces.<BR><BR>I love it when someone says to me, "You're not Japanese, but you're not<BR>gaijin.&nbsp; I don't know what you are."<BR><BR>Confusing people is fun.<BR><BR>The thing I really dig about Japanese people is that most of them kind of<BR>enjoy the confusion; Americans so often just get mad.<BR><BR>Kiri&nbsp; ^_^<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:02:41 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>&gt;I don't know how far along the theory got or whether it was well recieved.&nbsp; <BR>&gt;I do know that I haven't read about it recently, so it might have failed in <BR>&gt;the face of new facts or detailed analysis.<BR><BR>(Referring to the Nemesis theory, for those just joining us)<BR><BR>The major problem with Nemesis was the need for a 26 million year orbit. An <BR>orbit that long with perihelion in the Oort cloud would put Nemesis more <BR>than a light year out at aphelion. It's difficult to see how it wouldn't <BR>wander off into galactic space at the slightest provocation.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:16:22 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>&gt;From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "It's so much fun to watch you, Larsen!"<BR><BR><BR>Ms. Morgan,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Ah, milady, (waves a large floppy hat and sketches a clumsy bow) you do <BR>me an honor far beyond my due with your praise.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I am so pleased that is within the meager efforts of this foolish, grey <BR>headed, fat man to bring you the slightest modicum of hilarity.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I remain, madame, your most humble and obedient servant,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:23:37 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: : Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...<BR><BR>&gt;Subject: Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...<BR><BR>Looking good for me.&nbsp; My brother is a possible.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:22:43 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: All your base are belong to us!<BR><BR>What this is from is a message board.<BR><BR>I play online compuetr games. well someone posteda&nbsp; thread about this one<BR>game. it was originally coded in Japan. well when they sent it to the us the<BR>translated the beginning story into english. well they did not do a very<BR>good job of it to put it mildly.<BR><BR>well a couple of people made a few pictures with the phrase "all you base<BR>are belong to us" doctored into them. well next thing you knew there were<BR>several hundered posts with pictures with that phrase worked into the<BR>picture somewhere.<BR><BR>It blows my mind how this is spreading. People at work who know nothing<BR>about the game or how this got started are do this "all you base are belong<BR>to us" thing. sort of funny in a disturbing lemming kind of way 8P<BR><BR>most of the pictures used in that little clip are ones that were pulled from<BR>the thread.<BR><BR>anyway that is what it is and where it comes from<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>Me<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]<BR>Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 10:49 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: All your base are belong to us!<BR><BR><BR>&gt;X-Sender: danawolfe@uncia.com (Unverified)<BR>&gt;X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)<BR>&gt;Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:07:23 -0600<BR>&gt;To: lesbates@minn.net<BR>&gt;From: danawolfe@polaris.uncia.com<BR>&gt;Subject: All your base are belong to us!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~pyang/base/allyourbase.swf<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Something my landlord forwarded to me.<BR><BR>An adventure in bad translation.<BR><BR><BR>Les<BR><BR>=======================================================<BR>Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.<BR>=======================================================<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:26:04 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>&gt;Your essay assignment:&nbsp; Laser weaponry in Traveller.&nbsp; What do you see as<BR>&gt;the advantages/disadvantages to personal lasers, and in what roles would<BR>&gt;they be found?<BR><BR><BR>Now why couldnt i ahve had that essay assignment i could ahve written<BR>something on that 8P<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:29:22 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "The major problem with Nemesis was the need for a 26 million year<BR>orbit. An orbit that long with perihelion in the Oort cloud would put <BR>Nemesis more than a light year out at aphelion. It's difficult to see how it <BR>wouldn't wander off into galactic space at the slightest provocation."<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Drye,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you, sir, for informing me as to the reason the Nemesis theory <BR>was abandoned.&nbsp; I have always wondered why I never heard of it again after <BR>the original spate of articles.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; While I do read a great deal during my travels, I'm afraid it's more of <BR>an autodictat nature than any serious study.&nbsp; I flit from topic to topic as <BR>each interests me in turn.&nbsp; While this allows me to hold my own during "five <BR>minute cocktail conversation" on many topics, it also means that my <BR>knowledge in most areas is superficial.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I suppose a good analogy of my mind would be a very large, very shallow <BR>pool with just a few deep spots.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; That is exactly what makes this list so much fun to read.&nbsp; Here experts <BR>in many fields; law, weapons, astronomy, etc., all pass along their <BR>knowledge "coated" in Traveller terms.&nbsp; The coating helps me understand the <BR>trickier points of their expertise more easily.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks again.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:30:26 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Dave Strebe" &lt;strebe@intergate.bc.ca&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur&nbsp; <BR>&gt;100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any<BR><BR>&gt;traces of their presence that we would find now?<BR><BR>Traces? No.&nbsp; It's unlikely that any traces of any civilization will<BR>survive for 100 million years.<BR><BR>Randolph Carter, if you can find him, and if you can find him in a<BR>coherent condition, would be able to give testimony about it.&nbsp; <BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:35:12 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: <BR><BR>"Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; Peter Newman wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt; wrote<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; before you accept<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Bloo could you suggest an appropriate source I might use<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to look up the factualness of the above assertion? :)<BR>&gt; &gt; What source, or sources, do you have to prove that I should or<BR>&gt; &gt; shouldn't accept what people say as fact without looking it up<BR>&gt; &gt; myself?<BR><BR>&gt; Well, technically, I can't prove a 'should' as I used it there.&nbsp; It's<BR>&gt; an opinion that you would be well served to look it up for yourself<BR>&gt; rather than accept anything posted here as accurate regarding law.<BR><BR>That does make sense in many cases. However there are some<BR>fields, arguably including law, where a lay person may not<BR>understand what the sources mean. In some cases i might read<BR>a law and wrongly interpret the legal meanings of the words<BR>used without ever having realizing I was doing so. Thus I might<BR>come to the wrong conclusion.<BR><BR>On the other hand if I were to go 'Bloo is a lawyer and seems<BR>like a pretty smart guy based on our interactions so I'll just<BR>take his word for it.' Than I would be using your conclusion,<BR>not mine. If your conclusion about what a law says is not superior<BR>to mine than, no offense intended, what did you do in law school?<BR><BR>Why shouldn't I take your word for it rather than reading something<BR>I might not understand?<BR><BR>(Of course it would be better still to learn enough so that <BR>I _could_ read and understand the laws but that will take time.)<BR><BR>&gt; The original poster said that in the U.S. the phrase "Dungeons<BR>&gt; &amp; Dragons" is protected by US copyright law, but is protected<BR>&gt; by trademark law (and not copyright law) in Europe.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; That statement is incorrect.<BR>&gt; Because it is incorrect, you should not accept it as true.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A wise persons should also be skeptical of my statement and<BR>&gt; would be well advised to reseach the matter for themselves,<BR>&gt; so that they may draw their own conclusion.&nbsp; This is why<BR>&gt; when discussing legal matters, I always attempt to provide<BR>&gt; links so that others may read for themselves and come to<BR>&gt; their own conclusion of what is true and what is not, rather<BR>&gt; than accept my statements as fact.<BR><BR>Yes, providing links is helpful. I was merely pointing out that<BR>the link might cause people to read, and then misunderstand,<BR>the law instead of relying on your summary for the lay person.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:39:53 -0500<BR>From: Ethan Henry &lt;ethan.henry@sitraka.com&gt;<BR>Subject: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long<BR><BR>Someone wrote:<BR>&gt; This&nbsp; is&nbsp; a&nbsp; twisted&nbsp; trade&nbsp; war&nbsp; going&nbsp; on&nbsp; right&nbsp; now&nbsp;&nbsp; between<BR>&gt; manufacturers and UK consumers.<BR><BR>Ah-ha. Wierd. How on earth does something like this perpetuate itself?<BR>You would think this kind of thing would self-correct in the <BR>supposedly "free market". I don't see any external factors making<BR>a UK operation any intrinsically more expensive than any other...<BR><BR>Someone else wrote:<BR>&gt; Well, Canada uses 120 V power, the UK uses 240. Canada uses NTSC video,<BR>&gt; the UK uses PAL. Shall I continue?<BR><BR>Power, pffftp. My Thinkpad power supply is rated 100-240 V. Don't<BR>be silly, Leonard - converting voltage is pretty trivial, especially<BR>for devices with external power supplies and DC inputs.<BR><BR>As for NTSC versus PAL (or SECAM), it's a lot more common to have<BR>multi-mode TVs &amp; VCRs in Europe that support PAL, NTSC and SECAM. <BR>I mean, anyone with half a brain in the UK with a DVD player has<BR>had it unlocked to watch region 1 movies. <BR><BR>Anyway, things are not equally expensive in the rest of Europe<BR>as another poster pointed out - why not go buy stuff in Germany?<BR>Sure, in theory you have to pay duty, but growing up in a border<BR>town (Sarnia, Ontario, petro-chemical capital of Canada! Ugh!)<BR>I can tell you that a lot of stuff just floats on through without <BR>being seen, especially small things like cameras, walkmans, etc.<BR><BR>Ironically enough, even though they use different analog TV formats,<BR>most modern things like digital cameras and camcorders use exactly <BR>the same on-tape format, regardless of where they're sold. Well, <BR>there may be DV NTSC and DV PAL because of the different frame rates,<BR>but it's a lot less of a difference than it used to be, in that <BR>if you're doing online nonlinear editing the conversion is trivial.<BR><BR>Ethan<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:37:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Glenn, this was also on the front page of the Oregonian today.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;While it's interesting, I find it sad that it comes as such a surprise<BR>&gt;to the general populace, considering that this information has been<BR>&gt;common knowledge (in the scientific community) for *decades*,<BR>&gt;at the very least. Here's just a thumbnail timeline of the known<BR>&gt;extinctions:<BR><BR>The general public has known about the cycle of extinctions for a long<BR>time.&nbsp; It surprises no one.&nbsp; This item was news -- not generally known --<BR>because it is the first time that we have found evidence that that<BR>particular extinction phase was caused by an asteroid.&nbsp; <BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:43:46 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>Leonard Erickson wrote :<BR>&gt; Well, the box I'm in the process of building is an AMD K6-2-500 (the<BR>&gt; motherboard can't handle anything faster). 320 meg of RAM, I gig gig<BR>&gt; Jaz drive, 100 meg Zip drive, etc. I haven't selected an HD yet, and<BR>&gt; I'm not sure how fast the CD is. It'll have a 100baseTX NIC, though.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; It'll connect to my 17 inch monitor via the same electronic KVM box the<BR>&gt; current system is using.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; That'll give me this, after I get done re-arranging stuff:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; OS&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CPU&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; RAM&nbsp; &nbsp; Purpose<BR>&gt; -----------&nbsp; &nbsp; ------------&nbsp; &nbsp; ---&nbsp; &nbsp; ------------------<BR>&gt; OS/2 Warp 4 &nbsp; &nbsp; AMD K6-2-500&nbsp; &nbsp; 320&nbsp; &nbsp; "main box"<BR><BR>Gee, someones still using OS/2 ?<BR>Even IBM aren't doing that anymore ! &lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Win98&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; AMD K6-2-300&nbsp; &nbsp; 320&nbsp; &nbsp; Windows box<BR>&gt; MacOS 7.6.2&nbsp; &nbsp; 68040 (LC-475)&nbsp; &nbsp; ???&nbsp; &nbsp; Mac stuff<BR>&gt; Netware 4.2&nbsp; &nbsp; Pentium 166&nbsp; &nbsp; 256?&nbsp; &nbsp; file server<BR>&gt; DR-DOS 7.03&nbsp; &nbsp; 486DX2-66&nbsp; &nbsp; 64&nbsp; &nbsp; uucp/fidonet<BR>&gt; "linux"&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 386DX-???&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; firewall<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Note that other than the firewall and the file server, all of these<BR>&gt; will be using the *same* monitor. And all but the Mac will be using the<BR>&gt; same keyboard and mouse. :-)<BR><BR>Hmm, I _could_ list all the computers on my home LAN, ignoring all the ones<BR>in the garage for the moment, but suffice it to say that other than the Bay<BR>Networks router none are less than P166, and there are seven of them,<BR>including a PIII 650Mhz Toshiba lap-top. More when my eldest son is home<BR>from university.<BR><BR>But then I get an new one every year or two, and I never get rid of the old<BR>ones.<BR><BR>I wonder if I can link my BBC B into the network ?<BR>Was a pretty hot machine back in the eighties, Rockwell 65C02 clocked up to<BR>6Mhz or thereabouts with 256K of RAM and 12 sideways ROM slots.<BR>Anyone know if you can modify eco-net to work with ethernet ?<BR>&lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:57:30 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>It would be, perhaps Ironic, if Earth was home to quite a few races of<BR>intelligent beings.&nbsp; Each "extinction" cycle is the imprint of a race of<BR>beings who managed to become the top of the predator pyramid, only to die<BR>out when they couldn't maintain the food production/energy production<BR>requirements...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:08:13 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR>&gt; It would be, perhaps Ironic, if Earth was home to quite a few races of<BR>&gt; intelligent beings.&nbsp; Each "extinction" cycle is the imprint of a race of<BR>&gt; beings who managed to become the top of the predator pyramid, only to die<BR>&gt; out when they couldn't maintain the food production/energy production<BR>&gt; requirements...<BR><BR>Unfortunately, relatively easy to detect.&nbsp; Most fossil fuels, and all nuclear<BR>fuels, are far older than the dinosaurs, so we'd tend to detect the resource<BR>depletion if nothing else.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:31:40 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; I cannot even imagine a football game being remotely<BR>&gt; interesting.&nbsp; This, of course, is due to my upbringing.<BR>&gt; Games go for 90 minutes, or more, and no one scores.&nbsp; Defense is far<BR>&gt; stronger and, thanks to the rules about passing the ball,<BR><BR>There are no rules about passing the ball.<BR><BR>&gt; the offense is pitifully weak.<BR><BR>Hmm, obviously never seen a good striker in action.<BR><BR>&gt; If a soccer game is scoreless after 90 minutes,<BR>&gt; you've been bored for that long.<BR><BR>You macho philistine !<BR>Why is it that only _scoring_ is exciting to you ?<BR><BR>If a football game is scorelss after 90 minutes, then you've likely just had<BR>a a very exciting game. A high scoring game means that one or both of the<BR>teams are not very good, and the game is unlikely to be exciting.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:34:23 -0600<BR>From: "Dave McKenna" &lt;Dave.McKenna@MurrayState.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>I remember a few years ago, there was an editorial in some technical<BR>magazine I was reading at the time.&nbsp; It discussed the extinction of the<BR>dinosaurs, and proposed several alternate hypotheses to the cataclysmic<BR>asteroid scenario that is currently en vogue.&nbsp; My favorite one (number three<BR>on their list) started with the premise, that, if you should walk out of<BR>your house in the morning and discover that your car is not in the driveway<BR>where you parked it the night before, you would hardly be likely to<BR>immediately think "My God, my car has become extinct."&nbsp; You would likely<BR>think "My God, my car's been ripped off!!"&nbsp; This is quite possibly the<BR>reason that the dinosaurs vanished.&nbsp; As the article (which I am<BR>unfortunately unable to cite since my memory ain't good enough) points out,<BR>dinosaurs were nothing if not walking mountains of protein.&nbsp; It is quite<BR>possible that they were extensively hunted as food by a space faring race<BR>(the Ancients, no doubt), who took most of them off-planet, but cleverly<BR>left a number of corpses lying around to form fossil remains - the perfect<BR>crime.<BR>For those that are interested, number one on the list was the "not tonite<BR>honey, I have a headache" syndrome; number two (which incidentally led<BR>directly to #1) was the excessive height of dinosaurs - they tended to be<BR>frequently struck by lightning.<BR><BR>Hmmm.&nbsp; Sorry, must be Friday.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:27:31 -0500<BR>From: "Samuel D. Weiss" &lt;samwise1@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>&gt;I am studying japanese, apart from law, and i have come across this<BR>particular<BR>attitude in a certain genre of japanese literature, the Nihonjinron.<BR>Some authors claim that outsiders cannot possibly understand things<BR>japanese, because you need the japanese mindset from childhood onward<BR>to truly capture the entirety of what these things mean.&lt;<BR><BR>I study Okinawan martial arts. From everything i have experienced, the<BR>Japanese never understood that and their Karate shows it.<BR><BR>&gt;The thing I really dig about Japanese people is that most of them kind of<BR>enjoy the confusion; Americans so often just get mad.&lt;<BR><BR>I have found that in martial arts they tend to either develop an extreme<BR>inferiority complex or and extreme megalomania. Both are quite peculiar to<BR>view.<BR><BR><BR>Sam<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:29:46 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>At 11:28 PM -0800 2/22/01, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;Oh? Check the travel times between California and the east coast back<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;before the railroad.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &lt;Shrug&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; The bulk of the US was within decent travel times and the railroad<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; came shortly afterward (and the issue if communications, the<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; telegraph was earlier than the railroad, but I don't know the date).<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Also, the times even for pony express wasn't bad either.&nbsp; Much better<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; than in the Imperium.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The pony express operated for less than two years. MUCH less. The<BR>&gt;telegraph and railroad replaced it. And I'm not certain but I don't<BR>&gt;think the telegraph was all *that* far ahead of the railroad.<BR><BR>Right.<BR><BR>And that only serves to highlight how short of a time we are talking <BR>about.&nbsp; Pony express was the worst and it was quickly replaced with <BR>even better communications.<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:25:57 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Anti-Armor concept...<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;At 09:25 AM 2/23/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;OK, this isn't exactly state-of-the-art penguin technology, but I thought<BR>&gt; &gt;the TML assemblage might find the following article of interest:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;http://www.ssgfx.com/nfa/ROSCO/<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Hm...I don't know FFS quite well enough, but...<BR>&gt;GT: 5mm TL 8 recoilless rifle, muzzle-loader, with HEAT (not allowed at 5mm,<BR>&gt;but who cares).&nbsp; Very low power, extremely short barrel<BR>&gt;Malf crit, Damage 1d(10), SS 11, Acc +4, 1/2D 20, Max 560, ROF 1/6,<BR>&gt;$125, weight 0.045 lb + .00125 lb/shot.<BR><BR>Oh, God. The next thing you know, we'll be seeing specs. for the new<BR>PGMP-Mk II (that's "Plasma Gun, Marmot-Portable".)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:37:35 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Christopher Thrash &lt;thrash@io.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:02:16 -0600<BR>&gt; From: Eris Reddoch &lt;eris@pcola.gulf.net&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: world series<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Ob Trav:&nbsp; Baseball lives IMTU...that's all I can say. &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Eris<BR><BR>Did you catch my Amber Zone in JTAS a couple of weeks ago?<BR><BR>I actually have the souvenier to go with it: an "Uphold<BR>Democracy" commemorative baseball, from the Team Manufacturing plant in<BR>the Light Industrial Complex, Port au Prince, Haiti.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:57:47 -0600<BR>From: "Thomas Vickers" &lt;tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Temp Conversion<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin to Farenhite?<BR><BR>TV<BR><BR>_______________________________________<BR>We're not just going th shoot the bastards. We are going to cut out their<BR>living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. WE are going to<BR>murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; George C. Scott (Patton)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:50:17 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>&gt;It would be, perhaps Ironic, if Earth was home to quite a few races of<BR>&gt;intelligent beings.&nbsp; Each "extinction" cycle is the imprint of a race of <BR>&gt;beings who managed to become the top of the predator pyramid, only to die <BR>&gt;out when they couldn't maintain the food production/energy production <BR>&gt;requirements...<BR><BR>Remember that the original question was asking about signs of a civilization <BR>no higher that TL3.<BR><BR>Once it hits the stage of Industrial Revolution (and maybe even a bit <BR>before), it gets a lot harder to wipe out all traces. For one thing, all the <BR>easily accessible coal and oil would be gone. They don't call them <BR>"non-renewable" sources for nothing. Even 100 million years wouldn't be <BR>enough to bring much of it back. Similar things would happen with veins of <BR>metal ore and the like.<BR><BR>And since I'm talking about mining, the bigger strip mines and gravel pits <BR>would be noticeable for a long time.<BR><BR>(Slag piles, slugs of refined uranium with all the U-235 gone, plants and <BR>animals with genes in them from elsewhere in Richard Scarry's Bumper Book of <BR>Life, I could go on.)<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:52:18 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Temp Conversion<BR><BR>&gt;Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin to Farenhite?<BR><BR>http://www.admiralmetals.com/metric_conv.htm<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3737<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, February 23 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3738<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: world series<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR>Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: Temp Conversion<BR>Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: (mostly OT) Cricket<BR>Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Allen Steele<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: (mostly OT) Cricket<BR>Re: now completely OT (was re:" world" series)<BR>Re: Allen Steele<BR>Re: The spirit of the game<BR>Re: Attn.: Penguin-Lovers<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:56:19 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "There are no rules about passing the ball."<BR><BR>Mr. Pitt,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you for repsonse to my post concerning the world's most popular <BR>game.&nbsp; While my views do no agree with yours, I did did point out that they <BR>arise from my not being exposed to football as a child.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; My comment about passing the ball was poorly written, a problem with <BR>far too many of my posts.&nbsp; What I meant to say there are prohibitions about <BR>to whom and to where the ball can be passed.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; IIRC, an offensive player can be no nearer the goal than any defensive <BR>player, unless he is in possession of the ball.&nbsp; If true, this shackles <BR>offensive players' movements.&nbsp; A player can not dart pass a defender, <BR>recieve a pass, and then attmept to score.&nbsp; Any striker, no matter how good, <BR>is forced to dribble his way past a succession of glue footed defenders, no <BR>matter how bad.&nbsp; The brilliance of his play is constantly diluted by the <BR>mediocraty of those around him.&nbsp; Considering this, it's amazing he ever <BR>scores at all.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Admittedly, my knowledge of footbal is pitifully weak, but is my <BR>example above wrong?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "You macho philistine!&nbsp; Why is it that only _scoring_ is exciting to <BR>you ?"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Mr. Pitt, such insults are beneath you.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I believe I did mention a that a scoreless game in baseball would <BR>involve the a very exciting "duel" between two pitchers.&nbsp; If I had been <BR>exposed to football as a child, the same defensive struggle between football <BR>sides would be equally exciting.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; In my defense, I should mention that I much prefer low scoring, <BR>defensive games in American football too.&nbsp; However, I prefer basball to <BR>American football.&nbsp; Out football combines the two worst features of our <BR>culture; violence and committee meetings.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I did notice that you made no mention of football's asinine way to <BR>settle tie games in your passionate defense of the game to me.&nbsp; Do you <BR>prefer a kicking contest to the thrilling game play you wrote about?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As for my unhealthy interest in "scoring", it stems from a life time of <BR>failures in the pusuit of women, and I'd thank you not to mention it.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:58:37 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>At 3:12 PM +1100 2/23/01, Timothy Little wrote:<BR>&gt;David P. Summers wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; If you want to store the most hydrogen, I tend to go with as big a<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; hydrocarbon as you can handle.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The biggest one I could find offhand (hexadecane, or cetane), has a<BR>&gt;hydrogen density of 116 kg/m^3 (1.62 ton/dton).&nbsp; Concentrated ammonia<BR>&gt;solution has the same hydrogen density, but more useful "waste"<BR>&gt;products<BR><BR>I found something bigger, but I don't remember where.&nbsp; It was a bit better.<BR><BR>Thinking about it; you want something small, with a high dipole <BR>moment, and a large %age of hydrogen atoms.&nbsp; Maybe the best would be <BR>liquid HF.<BR><BR>&gt;Unfortunately I lost the original post, but someone commented that<BR>&gt;such fuel would be useful only for making multiple jumps.&nbsp; I don't<BR>&gt;think so.&nbsp; I see two possibilities:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;1) You need all the fuel at once to enter jumpspace, and trivial<BR>&gt;amounts to none while in jump.&nbsp; This means that the ship need not<BR>&gt;store its fuel while in jump.&nbsp; Costs are greatly reduced since you<BR>&gt;don't need large tanks capable of long-term cryogenic storage of LH2,<BR>&gt;and less of the ship's volume is taken up by the tanks.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;2) Most of the hydrogen goes into maintaining the jump bubble.&nbsp; In<BR>&gt;this case, you can refine the fuel as you go, and again save<BR>&gt;significant space and cost by not needing long-term cryogenic storage<BR>&gt;of LH2.&nbsp; In this case though, you still need storage tanks for H2O or<BR>&gt;whatever.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; You would probably still have a small reserve tank of LH2 to smooth<BR>&gt;out fluctuations in supply from the fuel proessors, and of course at<BR>&gt;least one or two backup processors.&nbsp; One dton of fuel processor<BR>&gt;including power plant slice etc. can output 1300 dtons of fuel over<BR>&gt;the course of the week in jump.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Either way, you save a lot by using unrefined fuel instead of LH2.<BR><BR><BR>Needing hydrogen when you start jump is conical in Marc's recent <BR>article.&nbsp; (I don't know if there is something earlier).&nbsp; However, if <BR>you waive that restriction, then you can save a lot of space. <BR>(Which, to me, is a bad thing because it makes existing background <BR>hard to justify).<BR><BR>Thus, if you assume that you need to use fuel faster than you can <BR>convert split the hydrocarbon, ammonia, HF, or whatever then you have <BR>to be albe to store one jump of fuel.&nbsp; However, this still means that <BR>storage of fuel in more compact forms implies that having fuel for a <BR>second jump should be more common (as it is now, it is quite rare in <BR>designs).<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:49:41 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>Larsen Whipsnade &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;Mr. Cook,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thank you for the extinction timetables above.&nbsp; I wish I could have<BR>&gt;found and provided it during an earlier thread.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In the "deep space refueling" thread last month, I mentioned the idea<BR>&gt;of "Nemesis"; an extremely distant stellar companion of Sol.&nbsp; When the<BR>&gt;reason for the "dinosaur killer" event was pretty much settled in favor of a<BR>&gt;planetoid impact, scientists began looking at the earlier episodes for<BR>&gt;similar clues.&nbsp; The idea was that a regular perturbtion of the Oort cloud<BR>&gt;and/or Kuiper belt might account for the extinctions.&nbsp; I believe there was<BR>&gt;even an attmept to calculate a probable orbit for "Nemesis".<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I don't know how far along the theory got or whether it was well<BR>&gt;recieved.&nbsp; I do know that I haven't read about it recently, so it might have<BR>&gt;failed in the face of new facts or detailed analysis.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As an aside, some scientists believe Earth is in the throes of another<BR>&gt;great extinction.<BR><BR>Yes, there's wide acceptance in the scientific community that humans<BR>are driving the latest mass extinction (the Quaternary M.E.)&nbsp; So far, the<BR>hardest hit orders/classes of animal life include Coleoptra (Insecta),<BR>amphibia, aves, and large mammals.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:02:37 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>At 10:32 AM -0800 2/23/01, Dave Strebe wrote:<BR>&gt;So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur<BR>&gt;100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any<BR>&gt;traces of their presence that we would find now?<BR><BR>Probably.&nbsp; Stone work, tombs, and various tools are all preserved <BR>more easily than the bones we already see.<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:10:13 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>At 9:53 AM -0800 2/23/01, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>&gt;http://www.msn.com/<BR>&gt;news article:<BR>&gt;Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR><BR>Just for the record, you aren't "wiping out life".&nbsp; You are causing <BR>mass extinctions but some stuff survives.<BR><BR>However, it is possible to wipe out life in a "sterilizing impact". <BR>Fortunately, these only occur very early in a planets lifetime.&nbsp; It <BR>has been speculated, however, that life started several times on the <BR>Earth only to be wiped out.&nbsp; This is based on&nbsp; the evidence that life <BR>originated almost immediately (in the geological sense) at the end <BR>(or before) of the late heavy bombardment.&nbsp; If life starts up that <BR>fast, it could have started up in the interval between the last two <BR>sterilizing impact.<BR><BR>However, it isn't clear what a "sterilizing impact is".&nbsp; A big impact <BR>can boil off the oceans.&nbsp; But with the evidence of subsurface <BR>ecosystems, it maybe that you not only have to boil the oceans but <BR>also bake the crust a bit.<BR><BR>[Disclaimer: All opinions on these matters are my own and don't <BR>represent any organization...]<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:13:45 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR><BR>At 7:31 PM +0100 2/23/01, Volker wrote:<BR>&gt;In a recent game we had a certain problem concerning combat.<BR>&gt;The problem was that wearing Battledress, and getting PGMP-13 fire,<BR>&gt;there was only a very narrow window of survival for the PCs.<BR>&gt;Either the damage was too low, and there wouldnt even be a sign that<BR>&gt;he had just taken a hit, or the damage was too high, and he was toast.<BR>&gt;Between these two extremes (uninjured/gone for good) was only a tight<BR>&gt;margin of about 20 damage points.<BR>&gt;Is this intentional?<BR><BR>It pretty much falls out when you start realistically modelling such <BR>things.&nbsp; (If you have huge energies and super hard armors, the frail <BR>human body doesn't compare.).<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; In MT the dmg from any firearm was reduced by<BR>&gt;distance and there was a much wider range of survival than in GT. I<BR>&gt;have not yet found a rule to solve this problem in GT, but must admit<BR>&gt;that I have only just begun playing with Gurps rules...<BR><BR>If you don't want to kill players, the first thing to do is not aim <BR>for vitals or brain and use the blow through rule (the weapon drills <BR>a hole in you, doing HT worth of hitpoints, and then blows out the <BR>back side).&nbsp; There are some cinematic rules scattered around, but I <BR>don't use them so I can't recommend them....<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:16:09 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>David P. Summers writes:<BR>&gt; At 10:32 AM -0800 2/23/01, Dave Strebe wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur<BR>&gt; &gt;100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any<BR>&gt; &gt;traces of their presence that we would find now?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Probably.&nbsp; Stone work, tombs, and various tools are all preserved <BR>&gt; more easily than the bones we already see.<BR><BR><BR>Of course, bear in mind that there were an awful lot more dinosaurs than <BR>the number of bones we've found.&nbsp; The odds of finding remnants from a TL0-3<BR>culture are probably greater than the odds of finding remnants from another<BR>dinosaur species with similar geographic distribution and length of existence,<BR>but since there's huge gaps in the fossil record, it's obviously possible to<BR>miss species that have existed for millions of years over a fairly large <BR>area, which means missing a low-tech culture shouldn't be too hard either.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:16:30 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Temp Conversion<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin <BR>&gt;to Farenhite?<BR><BR>F = 32+ 9*(K + 273.15)/5<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:17:19 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>David P. Summers writes:<BR><BR>&gt; However, it isn't clear what a "sterilizing impact is".&nbsp; A big impact <BR>&gt; can boil off the oceans.&nbsp; But with the evidence of subsurface <BR>&gt; ecosystems, it maybe that you not only have to boil the oceans but <BR>&gt; also bake the crust a bit.<BR><BR>Well, in any case, an impact similar to the one that created the moon should<BR>be enough ;)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:25:05 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; However, it isn't clear what a "sterilizing impact is".&nbsp; A big &gt; impact <BR>&gt;can boil off the oceans.&nbsp; But with the evidence of subsurface<BR>&gt; &gt; ecosystems, it maybe that you not only have to boil the oceans but<BR>&gt; &gt; also bake the crust a bit.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Well, in any case, an impact similar to the one that created the moon <BR>&gt;should be enough ;)<BR><BR>Now I know what I'm doing for the science fair this year.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:25:28 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: (mostly OT) Cricket<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Cricket?&nbsp; Less running and more time for beer drinking?&nbsp; Sounds good to <BR>&gt;me.&nbsp; Where's the sign up list?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I like the fact that you can throw spit balls in cricket.&nbsp; I do not <BR>&gt;like the idea of flat bats.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; While ambling through a park in Melbourne, Australia once many years <BR>&gt;ago, several young discerned I was a "yank" and coaxed me into taking a turn <BR>&gt;at bat in front of the wicket.&nbsp; I watched a few pitches at first, then <BR>&gt;signalled the young man to "bring the heat".&nbsp; He uncorked what a believe is <BR>&gt;called a "googly", whereupon I spanked it into the ozone.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Flat bats.&nbsp; Too easy.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>&gt;P.S. The result of my "at-bat" was not due to any athletic prowess, indeed I <BR>&gt;have none beyond cheating kiddies out of milk money with three walnut shells <BR>&gt;and a pea.&nbsp; Rather, it was thanks to several pints of Newcastle safely, and <BR>&gt;happily, enscounced behind my belt buckle.<BR><BR>And in the words of the late, great Stan McCabe "Any damn fool can hit full tosses".<BR><BR>BTW, as a paid-up member of the Leg Spinners' Sub-section of the Slow Bowlers Union, go and try <BR>and hit us into the ozone any time you want. Some of the time it will go straight up, straight down, and <BR>have someone underneath it to catch. Or you'll pick the wrong ball to hit, and in cricket, it's 'one strike <BR>and you're out' (1)<BR><BR>The googly, btw, was invented by a gentleman called Bosanquet in the early 1900s - it is a ball that <BR>looks like it will bounce and spin right to left, but actually spins left to right. He described it as 'Not <BR>illegal, but merely immoral'. Depending where you are, it is also known as the wrong 'un or bosie.<BR><BR>Oh, and I think both sports can learn from each other ... Glen McGrath's deceptively slower ball was <BR>learned from Craig McDermott, who learned it from Greg Chappell - who learned it as a 'split finger <BR>fastball', back when he played baseball.<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>ObTrav #1 : In the old days, English cricket teams would take the four-month trip to Australia and New <BR>Zeland by boat to play a series of matches. On a jump-4 ship, with a jump every 10 days, this should <BR>take you about 40 parsecs.<BR><BR>ObTrav#2 : There were serious diplomatic repercussions form the infamous 'Bobyline' series in the <BR>1930s, where Douglas Jardine taught Australians there were worse things than losing. It did not get to <BR>the stage of recall of ambassadors, but the tensions from it did impact on commercial relations.<BR><BR>(1) Cricket defines the strike zone with those bits of wood. Much more sensible than an umpire making <BR>a judgement call.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:38:50 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>At 2:16 PM -0800 2/23/01, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt;David P. Summers writes:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; At 10:32 AM -0800 2/23/01, Dave Strebe wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &gt;So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &gt;100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &gt;traces of their presence that we would find now?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Probably.&nbsp; Stone work, tombs, and various tools are all preserved<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; more easily than the bones we already see.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Of course, bear in mind that there were an awful lot more dinosaurs than<BR>&gt;the number of bones we've found.&nbsp; The odds of finding remnants from a TL0-3<BR>&gt;culture are probably greater than the odds of finding remnants from another<BR>&gt;dinosaur species with similar geographic distribution and length of existence,<BR>&gt;but since there's huge gaps in the fossil record, it's obviously possible to<BR>&gt;miss species that have existed for millions of years over a fairly large<BR>&gt;area, which means missing a low-tech culture shouldn't be too hard either.<BR><BR>To me "probably" sums it up OK.&nbsp; I think that any stone age+ culture <BR>will leave enough stuff behind (and, at the level, you have the <BR>technology to spread almost everywhere and be numerous in numbers. <BR>Humans are one of the few Omnivores that are present in herbivore <BR>numbers).&nbsp; However, the points you raise are reasons why you can't be <BR>sure.<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:39:36 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>At 2:17 PM -0800 2/23/01, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt;David P. Summers writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; However, it isn't clear what a "sterilizing impact is".&nbsp; A big impact<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; can boil off the oceans.&nbsp; But with the evidence of subsurface<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; ecosystems, it maybe that you not only have to boil the oceans but<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; also bake the crust a bit.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Well, in any case, an impact similar to the one that created the moon should<BR>&gt;be enough ;)<BR><BR>Yes.&nbsp; Most people would say that melting the crust would be sufficient!<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:40:12 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>At 5:25 PM -0500 2/23/01, Paul Drye wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt; However, it isn't clear what a "sterilizing impact is".&nbsp; A big &gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;impact can boil off the oceans.&nbsp; But with the evidence of subsurface<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt; ecosystems, it maybe that you not only have to boil the oceans but<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt; also bake the crust a bit.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Well, in any case, an impact similar to the one that created the <BR>&gt;&gt;moon should be enough ;)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Now I know what I'm doing for the science fair this year.<BR><BR>Creating a new moon by hitting the Earth with a sterilizing impact?<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:41:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Allen Steele<BR><BR>I have just started reading his stuff and I really like it.&nbsp; Anyone else<BR>like it, have thoughts on its relevance to Traveller, etc?<BR><BR>Kiri<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:47:57 -0800<BR>From: "Dave Strebe" &lt;strebe@INTERGATE.BC.CA&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>Maybe, but what if their tech took a different road, maybe along the lines<BR>of Harrison's 'Eden' series (forgot the titles 'West of Eden' springs to<BR>mind<BR>as one of them)<BR><BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Anthony Jackson" &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Cc: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 1:08 PM<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR><BR>&gt; hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR>&gt; &gt; It would be, perhaps Ironic, if Earth was home to quite a few races of<BR>&gt; &gt; intelligent beings.&nbsp; Each "extinction" cycle is the imprint of a race of<BR>&gt; &gt; beings who managed to become the top of the predator pyramid, only to<BR>die<BR>&gt; &gt; out when they couldn't maintain the food production/energy production<BR>&gt; &gt; requirements...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Unfortunately, relatively easy to detect.&nbsp; Most fossil fuels, and all<BR>nuclear<BR>&gt; fuels, are far older than the dinosaurs, so we'd tend to detect the<BR>resource<BR>&gt; depletion if nothing else.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:53:05 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: (mostly OT) Cricket<BR><BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "BTW, as a paid-up member of the Leg Spinners' Sub-section of the Slow <BR>Bowlers Union, go and try and hit us into the ozone any time you want. Some <BR>of the time it will go straight up, straight down, and<BR>&gt;have someone underneath it to catch. Or you'll pick the wrong ball to hit, <BR>&gt;and in cricket, it's 'one strike and you're out' (1)"<BR><BR>Mr. Whitchurch,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Well it looks as if my brief moment of cricketing glory was even more <BR>of improbability then I previously thought, if that's possible.&nbsp; Just <BR>another ode to the power of ale.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "The googly, btw, was invented by a gentleman called Bosanquet in the <BR>early 1900s - it is a ball that looks like it will bounce and spin right to <BR>left, but actually spins left to right. He described it as 'Not<BR>illegal, but merely immoral'."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I've always had a soft place in my withered heart for anything called a <BR>"googly" but now knowing that it's own inventor referred to it as "not <BR>illegal, but merely immoral" I love the "googly" even more.&nbsp; Thank you even <BR>more for that wonderful little tidbit.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Are pitchers, excuse me, bowlers(?) thought of in cricket the same way <BR>as they are in baseball?&nbsp; It's "common knowledge" that pitchers are the <BR>strangest members of any team, even developing their own language.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; My cryptic "cheese in the kitchen and a yakker for a kudo" can be <BR>explained like this.&nbsp; Cheese (a fastball) in the kitchen (close to the <BR>batter) and a yakker (a slider) for a kudo (a strikeout).&nbsp; The squirrel bait <BR>who came up with that one also referred to liquor as "oil" and money as <BR>"iron".<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The use of wickets to call strikes as obvious benefits.&nbsp; We recently <BR>had to break the umpires union here just to get them respond to performance <BR>reviews.&nbsp; Too many very bad umps had too much seniority.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:53:58 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: now completely OT (was re:" world" series)<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: world series<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Ms. Morgan,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; While I agree with your assessment that football (soccer) players might <BR>&gt;be "cuter", I cannot even imagine a football game being remotely <BR>&gt;interesting.&nbsp; This, of course, is due to my upbringing.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Games go for 90 minutes, or more, and no one scores.&nbsp; Defense is far <BR>&gt;stronger and, thanks to the rules about passing the ball, the offense is <BR>&gt;pitifully weak.&nbsp; If a soccer game is scoreless after 90 minutes, you've been <BR>&gt;bored for that long.&nbsp; If a baseball game is scoreless after 9 innings, <BR>&gt;you've been watching two pitchers duel against each other, batter by batter.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; FIFA's rules about how games are won after regulation are asinine. <BR><BR>Well, yeah. The problem is that all the other solutions have problems, too. My solution is sudden-death <BR>overtime, with a player on each side going off every 5 minutes. Seth Blatta (the FIFA president) sees it <BR>as a problem, too.<BR><BR>Mind you, penalty shootouts are really really tense ... the Woollongong goal keeper saved three (!) <BR>penalties to win the Australian league championship game last year, and that basically earned the <BR>team from the Gong a trip to Brazil for the World Club Championship (which a US team may be entered <BR>in ... if they can beat the other North American teams in the qualifiers).<BR><BR>&gt; In <BR>&gt;a World Cup recently, the title was awarded to the team that won a kicking <BR>&gt;contest!&nbsp; Here we have a true world championship.&nbsp; Teams vie for years to <BR>&gt;enter it, the playoffs take months, and finally we have, arguably, the two <BR>&gt;best teams in the entire world playing each other.&nbsp; <BR><BR>But thats the point, isnt it, Larsen ... 'arguably'. I didnt see any J-league teams. I didnt see any <BR>Australian teams. Nobody from Cuba, either.<BR><BR>You call it the 'World Series'. It isnt. Not by a long shot. Sure, the MLB teams will probably win by <BR>weight of money. But if you do it right, with single-elimination and one game played, then we're looking <BR>at 'any given Sunday'.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Imagine, the Super Bowl tied after 4 quarters.&nbsp; Do we keep playing?&nbsp; <BR>&gt;Nope, let's have a field goal contest.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Thats funny, I could swear most gridiron games tied after OT are won by the team that wins the coin <BR>toss, and takes the territorial advantage from that to ... get into field-goal range and have a kicking <BR>contest. I'd need to check the records for the Superbowl.<BR><BR>&gt;P.S.&nbsp; As to the upsurge in football's popularity in the US, don't bet on it. <BR>&gt;&nbsp; My grandfather played in a pro league in Texas during the early 1900s.&nbsp; It <BR>&gt;never came to anything.&nbsp; Once the current US women's team grows old or <BR>&gt;breaks up, the hype will die down too.&nbsp; We've too many sports choices for <BR>&gt;football to succeed now.&nbsp; Our vesion of "footie" is baseball; the old game <BR>&gt;everyone learns to love as a kid.&nbsp; It's too late for football to gain that <BR>&gt;status in the US.<BR><BR>No. With womens' soccer the best way to achieve Title IX compliance, there are going to be a lot of <BR>good women flowing through into the US team. I dont believe that US soccer will ever dispace one of <BR>the major sports, but I can quite easily see a successful niche market.<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:09:06 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Allen Steele<BR><BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "I have just started reading his stuff and I really like it.&nbsp; Anyone <BR>else like it, have thoughts on its relevance to Traveller, etc?"<BR><BR><BR>Ms. Morgan,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I'm not sure how much of his work I can discuss without spoiling it for <BR>you.&nbsp; Suffice it to say, I thoroughly enjoy his work especially the way he <BR>illustrates the "workaday" world of his charecters.&nbsp; He equals C.J. Cherryh <BR>in that regard.&nbsp; I've worked in shipyards, refineries, pipelines, etc. and <BR>his picture of everyday life while building a Big Thing(tm) rings true for <BR>me.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I view his workers, and their attitudes, as proto-belters.&nbsp; People who <BR>must deal without gravity control on a daily basis and spend most of their <BR>time suited up.&nbsp; People who, due to few specialized skills or the lack of an <BR>advanced education, are willing to risk a certain amount of personel danger <BR>for the chance to make some big (to them) money.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:24:26 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>From: "Samuel D. Weiss" &lt;samwise1@email.msn.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;I study Okinawan martial arts. From everything i have experienced, the<BR>&gt;Japanese never understood that and their Karate shows it.<BR><BR>"If you weren't born on Menorb, you will never really understand the<BR>Irklan fighting style."<BR><BR>"Only pure-blooded Vilani who grew up in the Vilani traditions can really<BR>understand what the shugili brings to the dinner table."<BR><BR>"If you're not a Vargr, you really can't grasp what it is I'm smelling. <BR>OK, Joe is drunker than we and is puking his guts.&nbsp; You can smell that as<BR>well I can.&nbsp; It's the subtle stuff I'm talking about."<BR><BR>[An Ael Yael and a Droyne look quizzically at one another as they fly<BR>past.]&nbsp; <BR><BR>The Hiver says, "* // *)"<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:26:52 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Attn.: Penguin-Lovers<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; At 10:46 AM 2/23/2001 +0100, you wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; While browsing the web about my other hobby, Manga and anime, I found<BR>&gt;&gt; this link...<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; http://www.fredart.com/fredart/artpage.php3?src=&amp;ft=co&amp;fn=11<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hubba Hubba!!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Penguinlovers enjoy :-)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; We prefer to be called admirers.<BR><BR>You would _prefer_ to be called Yog-Penguoth Lord of the Universe and <BR>Arch High Penguinboy, but I think we'll just call you Douglas. ;-P<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:29:44 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>Paul Drye wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent <BR>&gt;&gt; dinosaur 100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they <BR>&gt;&gt; have left any traces of their presence that we would find now?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 100,000 million years ago is ten times the age of the universe, <BR>&gt; approximately. But I understand what you're trying to say. There are <BR>&gt; fossils of actual dinosaurs, so there's a pretty good chance we'd have <BR>&gt; fossils of them, or their immediate "primate-brained" ancestors.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ummm, what else. The Nazca Lines would say "Hello, monkey successors! <BR>&gt; Sorry we missed you!"<BR><BR>"So long and thanks for all the Cycad leaves" ?? ;-)<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3738<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xd03.mx.aol.com (rly-xd03.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.168]) by air-xd03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:32:16 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xd03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:31:51 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA10799;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:30:18 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:29:47 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA10707<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:29:47 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:29:47 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102232329.SAA10707@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3738<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, February 23 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3739<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: System defenses<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR>Re: Temp Conversion<BR>Re: The spirit of the game<BR>Re: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long<BR>Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>RE: Temp Conversion<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR>RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>RE: Re : Indefinite life span<BR>Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR>Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR>RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:43:58 +1000<BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: System defenses<BR><BR>&gt; From: "Terry Carlino" <BR>&gt; I see the Ine Givar on the same footing as the Red Brigade or the<BR>&gt; Weathermen. They have absolutely no chance of overthrowing the Imperium<BR>&gt; or even undermining the government of a local world. That doesn't mean<BR>&gt; that they are not dangerous, disruptive or a problem for security forces.<BR>&gt; It just means that they will ultimately fail in their objective. <BR><BR>I use a factionalised model of the Ine Givar, particularly after the 5FW,<BR>in order to accomodate different views of them.&nbsp; So:&nbsp; IMTU, some are how<BR>Terry sees them.<BR><BR>As other people have pointed out, canon suggests that they could actually<BR>mobilise considerable military forces on certain worlds, particularly<BR>Efate.<BR><BR>Furthermore, there are canonically successful revolts on certain worlds<BR>within their sphere of operations, such as Dinom.&nbsp; While there is no<BR>evidence that they were actually involved in the Dinom events, I assume<BR>they were, IMTU, although they lost a power struggle with more<BR>conservative/xenophobic forces. <BR><BR>The Red Brigades and Weathermen were idiots.&nbsp; Assuming that the Ine Givar<BR>are idiots too isn't the most interesting option, IMHO.&nbsp; At least, assuming<BR>that they stay idiots isn't.&nbsp; It is pretty clear from what we know of the<BR>Marches, that there are plenty of places where an intelligent anti-Imperial<BR>movement could build support for themselves.&nbsp; They just have to learn to<BR>think with their brains and not with their guns.<BR><BR>Hmm.&nbsp; A better analogy for the Ine Givar might be the PLO.&nbsp; But that's a<BR>nationalist movement, which doesn't quite fit the IG.&nbsp; Perhaps it might be<BR>better to think of them as being the equivalent of some of the factions<BR>within the PLO.<BR><BR>&gt; Should they<BR>&gt; actually succeed in deploying a weapon of mass destruction the Imperial<BR>&gt; response will totally crush them. (Because then the Imperium will<BR>&gt; exercise extreme measures to find and kill them that the local populous<BR>&gt; would not normally support. Things like psi agents, draconian ID checks<BR>&gt; and secret police methods, etc.) Should the Joes and the Imperium ever<BR>&gt; make real peace, (as they do in the TNE setting,) then as happened when<BR>&gt; Eastern Germany fell, they will give up all they know of the Ine Givar,<BR>&gt; and it will be quickly shutdown.<BR><BR>I have a vague memory of a canonical instance of a nuke being used by the<BR>IG.&nbsp; This was one of the reasons why I started factionalising them - it<BR>occurred to me that at least some of their members might realise how stupid<BR>such tactics where.<BR><BR>I think you are overestimating the effectiveness of police repression.&nbsp; If<BR>nothing else, the Imperium was probably already using such methods against<BR>them to a considerable degree.&nbsp; One of the problems, of course, is that it<BR>is very difficult to infiltrate an organisation with telepaths in their<BR>security teams.<BR><BR>If the IG are complete puppets of the Zhodani, they will, of course, fail. <BR>That is why they shouldn't become puppets of the Zhodani!&nbsp; In addition, of<BR>course, they can base themselves in the Federation of Arden, the Sword<BR>Worlds, various Vargr states, and on many independent worlds.&nbsp; There is no<BR>reason why they should be completely shut down if the Zhodani were to turn<BR>on them, although obviously they would take a serious hit.<BR><BR>One of the factors behind my factionalised Ine Givar is the rivalry between<BR>pro-Zhodani, pro-Sword Worlds, Vargr and independent groups.&nbsp; Some groups<BR>emphasise psionics, some are soft on human/Solomani supremacy, some<BR>emphasise pansophontism, and so on.<BR><BR>The way I read the Regency sourcebook, it sounded like the Ine Givar had<BR>_won_, and were running the place! <BR><BR>Alan Bradley<BR>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:44:07 +1000<BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>&gt; From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <BR>&gt; P.S.&nbsp; As to the upsurge in football's popularity in the US, don't bet on<BR>&gt; it. My grandfather played in a pro league in Texas during the early<BR>&gt; 1900s. It never came to anything.&nbsp; Once the current US women's team grows<BR>&gt; old or breaks up, the hype will die down too.&nbsp; We've too many sports<BR>&gt; choices for football to succeed now.&nbsp; Our vesion of "footie" is baseball;<BR>&gt; the old game everyone learns to love as a kid.&nbsp; It's too late for<BR>&gt; football to gain that status in the US.<BR><BR>Out of idle curiousity:&nbsp; is soccer more popular in areas with large Latino<BR>populations?<BR><BR>Alan Bradley<BR>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:45:40 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact:&nbsp; Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>&gt;From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Just for the record, you aren't "wiping out life".&nbsp; You are causing <BR>&gt;mass extinctions but some stuff survives.<BR><BR>I just copied the headline.&nbsp; It was sensationalistic and inaccurate, but I<BR>wanted people to be able to find the article easily.<BR><BR>- --Glenn <BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:52 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;10222.234718.1T6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>Funnily enough, there was a programme about 'Could the earth have ever <BR>gone completely snowball?' on UK TV last night.<BR><BR>The conclusion was that it could - if normal ice age glaciation covered <BR>enough of the surface, too much heat would be reflected away from the <BR>surface leading to a catastropic cooling and hey presto snowball time. <BR>Only one problem, how do you get out of that?<BR><BR>Then someone thought about volcanoes. Not so much the tapping straight <BR>down into magma, which would only heat the ice surrounding the volcano, <BR>but the fact that they emit gas. Lots of gas. Like carbon dioxide - aka <BR>'greenhouse gas'. No plants around to suck it up, so things heat up again <BR>over time, as the gas concentration increases.<BR><BR>(I could give a more detailed account of the evidence and theory behind <BR>this, but I am just about to have tea before bolting out to play <BR>SHADOWRUN, so I won't!)<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:56:20 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Temp Conversion<BR><BR>try http://www.megaconverter.com<BR><BR>Tod<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Thomas Vickers" &lt;tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 1:57 PM<BR>Subject: Temp Conversion<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin to Farenhite?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; TV<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; _______________________________________<BR>&gt; We're not just going th shoot the bastards. We are going to cut out their<BR>&gt; living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. WE are going<BR>to<BR>&gt; murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; George C. Scott<BR>(Patton)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:05:17 -0500<BR>From: "Samuel D. Weiss" &lt;samwise1@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>&gt;"If you weren't born on Menorb, you will never really understand the<BR>Irklan fighting style."<BR><BR>"Only pure-blooded Vilani who grew up in the Vilani traditions can really<BR>understand what the shugili brings to the dinner table."<BR><BR>"If you're not a Vargr, you really can't grasp what it is I'm smelling.<BR>OK, Joe is drunker than we and is puking his guts.&nbsp; You can smell that as<BR>well I can.&nbsp; It's the subtle stuff I'm talking about."<BR><BR>[An Ael Yael and a Droyne look quizzically at one another as they fly<BR>past.]<BR><BR>The Hiver says, "* // *)"<BR><BR>- --Glenn&lt;<BR><BR>Heh, I don't support that stuff. I was just mocking a group who thinks its<BR>true of other that doesn't want to admit it can be true of themselves.<BR>"Good fences make good neighbors" and all that.<BR><BR>Oh, and tell that Hiver he can stick it!<BR><BR>Punk starfish giving me lip. Errr, tentacle. Whatever. I don't have to take<BR>that from him! It.<BR>Damnit.<BR><BR><BR>Sam<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:06:14 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long<BR><BR>Ethan Henry wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Someone wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; This&nbsp; is&nbsp; a&nbsp; twisted&nbsp; trade&nbsp; war&nbsp; going&nbsp; on&nbsp; right&nbsp; now&nbsp;&nbsp; between <BR>manufacturers<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; and UK consumers.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Ah-ha. Wierd. How on earth does something like this perpetuate<BR>&gt; itself?&nbsp; You would think this kind of thing would self-correct in<BR>&gt; the&nbsp;&nbsp; supposedly "free market". I don't see any external factors<BR>&gt; making&nbsp; a UK operation any intrinsically more expensive than any<BR>&gt; other...<BR><BR>"Free Market" is an oxymoron.<BR><BR>A truly free market results in a few powerful cartels dominating the <BR>market.<BR><BR>That a 'free market' fosters choice, competition, and innovation is a <BR>delusion that libertarians, Rand-o-philes and conservative business <BR>commentators cling to like it's Linus's security blanket.<BR><BR>That this is true is shown by examination of the most truly free market <BR>on the planet: organized crime. (By virtue of it's illegality, it <BR>operates entirely unfettered by government regulation, save one: don't <BR>get caught)<BR><BR>This is how the Medellin, then Cali, then Mexican cocaine cartels work(ed).<BR><BR>Even the Vilani never went to a total free market...they divided up the <BR>stars among the members of the cartel...in large part due to the <BR>destructive effects that unfettered competition among the Bureaux would <BR>have caused. Perhape eventually a single corporation would rule, but <BR>they were fairly equal partners, with vast resources.<BR><BR>The resulting civil war would have devastated the Vilani Empire. yet <BR>without a formal agreement, the megacorps were playing a dangerous game <BR>of Prisoner. Eventually one or another would deem the time ripe for a <BR>strike against the others, and start the final war.<BR><BR>Think a Diplomacy game writ large...very large!<BR><BR>This was why, in part, the free market was curtailed by the Sherman <BR>anti-trust act in the US.<BR><BR>Increasingly, in view of such things as the DMCA (Digital Millenium <BR>Copyright Act) and UCITA (Uniform something something something...a <BR>proposed uniform business code, relating in particular to computers and <BR>software) it's pretty clear that the 'free market' idiots have forgotten <BR>what Rockefeller and Morgan wrought.<BR><BR>These decidedly anti-consumer laws have resulted things like the absurd <BR>notion that consumers are bound by agreements they're not allowed to see <BR>until they consent to the terms. (AKA 'Shrinkwrap licenses')<BR><BR>Under some provisions of UCITA, it is illegal to expose flaws in <BR>software, in fact, a liberal reading of the rules will make it illegal <BR>to publish a negative review of a product. (And you thought the broccoli <BR>anti-defamation laws were bad!)<BR><BR>I'm beginning to think that we're not going to beat the Vilani after <BR>all...in Pogo's immortal words "We have met the enemy, and he is us!"<BR><BR>- --<BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:06:42 -0500<BR>From: "SwordWorlder" &lt;SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR><BR>Don't wish it gone right away. There are forces at work.<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Somehow, I suspect that my chances of getting my hands on Deneb via<BR>DGP's<BR>&gt; &gt; stuff is vanishingly small.&nbsp; Question for Loren:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This is the biggest reason why I think that the DGP material should be<BR>&gt; removed from the body of Traveller canon (sooner rather than later).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:12:17 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?<BR><BR>Paul Drye wrote:<BR>&gt; Once it hits the stage of Industrial Revolution (and maybe even a bit <BR>&gt; before), it gets a lot harder to wipe out all traces. For one thing, all the <BR>&gt; easily accessible coal and oil would be gone.<BR><BR>Maybe the easily-accessible oil *is* gone, and we're left with having<BR>to mine the stuff instead of just slurping it up from big lakes&nbsp; :)<BR><BR><BR>&gt; (Slag piles, slugs of refined uranium with all the U-235 gone,<BR>&gt; plants and animals with genes in them from elsewhere in Richard<BR>&gt; Scarry's Bumper Book of Life, I could go on.)<BR><BR>There are variations in relative abundance of various isotopes of<BR>radioactive elements, though they do have plausible explanations.&nbsp; And<BR>certainly *lots* of genes are shared between radically different forms<BR>of life, though this too is easily explained by other means.<BR><BR>Not that I think any of this is at all likely or even plausible, but<BR>fun to do far-out speculation on.<BR><BR>Of course, all this assumes that dinosaurs would develop technology<BR>along the same lines that we might.&nbsp; There may be other avenues that<BR>we are blind to because it would never have occurred to us in a<BR>million years (literally) to look for them.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:22:56 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>David P. Summers wrote:<BR>&gt; Thinking about it; you want something small, with a high dipole <BR>&gt; moment, and a large %age of hydrogen atoms.&nbsp; Maybe the best would be <BR>&gt; liquid HF.<BR><BR>Hah, I considered that one but it turned out to be only 50 kg/m^3 of<BR>hydrogen, even worse than liquid H2.&nbsp; Not enough hydrogen per<BR>molecule.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Needing hydrogen when you start jump is conical in Marc's recent <BR>&gt; article.<BR><BR>OK, that saves you the most since you don't actually need to carry<BR>huge volumes of fuel through jump.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; However, if you waive that restriction, then you can save a lot of<BR>&gt; space.&nbsp; (Which, to me, is a bad thing because it makes existing<BR>&gt; background hard to justify).<BR><BR>In that case, you would be better off positing that you need the<BR>hydrogen throughout jump.&nbsp; Better yet, require most of it at the *end*<BR>of jump in a big burst.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Thus, if you assume that you need to use fuel faster than you can<BR>&gt; convert split the hydrocarbon, ammonia, HF, or whatever then you<BR>&gt; have to be albe to store one jump of fuel.<BR><BR>However, you can do so in a collapsible or disposable fuel bladder<BR>that doesn't take up volume while in jump.&nbsp; Since 'volume in jump' is<BR>by far the biggest determinant of cost, you save heaps.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; However, this still means that storage of fuel in more compact<BR>&gt; forms implies that having fuel for a second jump should be more<BR>&gt; common (as it is now, it is quite rare in designs).<BR><BR>The main problem is the extra week it takes and the cargo it<BR>displaces.&nbsp; It really would be only suitable for Xboats and<BR>rift-crossers.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:35:32 -0800<BR>From: "J-Man" &lt;jman31415@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Temp Conversion<BR><BR>Kelvin to F :<BR><BR>((temp+271.3)*(1/6))+32<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn<BR>Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 15:56<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Temp Conversion<BR><BR><BR>try http://www.megaconverter.com<BR><BR>Tod<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Thomas Vickers" &lt;tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 1:57 PM<BR>Subject: Temp Conversion<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin to Farenhite?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; TV<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; _______________________________________<BR>&gt; We're not just going th shoot the bastards. We are going to cut out their<BR>&gt; living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. WE are going<BR>to<BR>&gt; murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; George C. Scott<BR>(Patton)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:25:40 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Out of idle curiousity:&nbsp; is soccer more popular in areas with large <BR>Latino populations?"<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Bradley,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Oddly enough, some of the results from our latest census show that the <BR>huge influx of hispanics are assimilating faster than the other ethnic <BR>groups that came before them.&nbsp; A very nice point to slap down the xenophobes <BR>with.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; They follow the teams back in the "old country" rather than any here in <BR>the US.&nbsp; The current attempt at fielding a pro league is slowly dying and <BR>hispanic faces are few among the fans.&nbsp; Perhaps the level of play isn't good <BR>enough to draw people who've seen the game played the real way.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I've read a news report on the local pro soccer franchise in which <BR>their management admitted their marketing campaign aimed at hispanics was a <BR>failure.&nbsp; The story went on to say that this was the truth for most <BR>franchises too.&nbsp; There were a few exceptions though.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The local franchise's biggest gates have occurred when teams visiting <BR>from abroad played them; Italy, Columbia, Portugal.&nbsp; Most of the time they <BR>"pad" their attendence by handing out free tickets to kiddie leagues.<BR><BR>OBTrav:&nbsp; Are there worlds in Traveller that have been fortunate enough to <BR>recieve long term sustained immigration of an industrious people wanting to <BR>make a better life for their children?&nbsp; How would those worlds handle the <BR>assimilation of these people?<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:41:09 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>Timothy Little writes:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Needing hydrogen when you start jump is conical in Marc's recent <BR>&gt; &gt; article.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; OK, that saves you the most since you don't actually need to carry<BR>&gt; huge volumes of fuel through jump.<BR><BR>AKA 'drop tanks'.&nbsp; The mechanics involved might be a little tricky, however;<BR>enough to always have a misjump chance, say.<BR><BR>&gt; However, you can do so in a collapsible or disposable fuel bladder<BR>&gt; that doesn't take up volume while in jump.&nbsp; Since 'volume in jump' is<BR>&gt; by far the biggest determinant of cost, you save heaps.<BR><BR>Supposedly collapsible fuel tanks cannot be used to fuel jump.&nbsp; It has never<BR>been explained exactly why.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:54 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;3.0.5.16.20010223104551.3ba7e4d8@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts, especially Douglas.<BR><BR>Thank you for the 'Casey at the Bat' poem... while still not knowing <BR>anything about baseball (yes, Mr Whipsnade, your kind offer has been noted <BR>and if I'm ever in the right place at the right time I would be delighted <BR>to accept your escort to a game!) I collect stories and poems for <BR>'traditional storytelling' - my 4 year old may get that in the morning <BR>when she gets out of bed. She's had a daily story since she was 2 days old <BR>(which was when I was well enough to see her...).<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:54 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;113344397.20010223193111@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>It sounds quite reasonable to me - any damage that is going to get through <BR>a suit of really solid armour isn't going to do much good to the human <BR>being (or member of other species, as appropriate) <BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 8:59, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; At 07:02 AM 02/23/2001 -0600, you wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; A TL9 Sniper Rifle might well be Smart enough to have an<BR>&gt; &gt;self-ranging scope and ammunition awareness built-in, if money were no<BR>&gt; &gt;object. Hell, it's possible NOW to do such a thing, and it has been done,<BR>&gt; &gt;just not all at once on the same rifle.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; We have a scope like that now, it's produced by Swarovski Optik and is <BR>&gt; called the LRS, or Laser Ranging Scope.&nbsp; Pretty nifty, it determines the <BR>&gt; range and adjusts the scope based on the cam installed.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Get'em now, they're down from $4495.00 at $1995.00!<BR><BR>Don't know that I'd be too keen, were I sniping, on using something with a <BR>laser rangefinder on it, especially a TL or two down the road. Basically the <BR>idea of using active sensors just doesn't appeal.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 8:04, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; on 2/23/01 3:24 AM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; While this is true, with a well made weapon (not an AK-47, etc) it doesn't<BR>&gt; &gt; make a whole lot of difference. Bench-resters will notice, but for the rest of<BR>&gt; &gt; us the difference is small enough that the less accurate bolt-actions of a<BR>&gt; &gt; given make will be less accurate than the more accurate semi-auto of a good,<BR>&gt; &gt; accurate design. IOW unless you're actually giving individual weapons<BR>&gt; &gt; adjustments to accuracy you can generally ignore this, assuming that care has<BR>&gt; &gt; been taken in designing the weapon to make it accurate.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Absolutely true.&nbsp; My Match AR-15 will shoot 1/4" angle with handloads.<BR>&gt; Better than most .223 bolt rifles.<BR><BR>It's a pity I had to sell that M1, as it was in very good nick, and had a low <BR>SA serial number. I reckon that with careful handloading, and a bit of testing <BR>to find out what loads it really liked I might have been able to get down to <BR>1/2" gruops with a scope, which is about as good as you'll ever get from a full-<BR>bore non-benchrest rifle, especially one with a barrel as light as an M1's.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Re : Indefinite life span<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 11:28, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I have to wonder if life expectancy in the U.S. was broken down by<BR>&gt; socio-economic groups whether the life expectancy for certain groups in the U.S.<BR>&gt; wouldn't be reflective of rates in other countries. More plainly, separate out<BR>&gt; the lower income socio-economic groups who have little access to health care.<BR>&gt; Would the average life expectancy rise dramatically?<BR><BR>Probably not that much, actually. There was a study (I forget who did iot, <BR>sorry) that showed that the life expectancy in a country was fairly closely <BR>correlated with the differentail in wealth between poor and wealthy, and that <BR>this affected even the wealthy. It didn't, as far as I can remember look at <BR>why.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 10:19, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Remember that the English upper classes came from France -- Norman<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Conquest, 1066, and all that.<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Bit of trivia:&nbsp; This explains why there are different&nbsp; words&nbsp; for<BR>&gt; &gt; meats as opposed to the animals they come from.&nbsp; A peasant&nbsp; would<BR>&gt; &gt; see a bovine and call it a cow, a French-speaking noble would see<BR>&gt; &gt; bovine meat on his plate and call it a cow ... but the French for<BR>&gt; &gt; cow is "beouff" (sp?).&nbsp; Over the years that became&nbsp; "beef".&nbsp; Same<BR>&gt; &gt; story for pig and porc (pork), etc.&nbsp; The peasants didn't&nbsp; get&nbsp; to<BR>&gt; &gt; eat cows or pigs ... but did eat chicken.&nbsp; Thus, unlike for&nbsp; cows<BR>&gt; &gt; and pigs, the word for the chicken animal and&nbsp; the&nbsp; chicken&nbsp; meat<BR>&gt; &gt; are the same.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Except for some places in the old French empire (somewhere in Southeast Asia),<BR>&gt; where all meat ended up being called 'boeff'. Chicken is named, in this patois,<BR>&gt; 'boueff what fly'. ;-)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The Food Channel has some weird stuff on sometimes...<BR><BR>Try some verions of pidgin english, where everything you can eat is 'beeffe', <BR>so a cow is 'beeffe beeffe', while a sheep is 'sheepe beeffe'.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 19:31, Volker wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; In a recent game we had a certain problem concerning combat.<BR>&gt; The problem was that wearing Battledress, and getting PGMP-13 fire,<BR>&gt; there was only a very narrow window of survival for the PCs.<BR>&gt; Either the damage was too low, and there wouldnt even be a sign that<BR>&gt; he had just taken a hit, or the damage was too high, and he was toast.<BR>&gt; Between these two extremes (uninjured/gone for good) was only a tight<BR>&gt; margin of about 20 damage points.<BR>&gt; Is this intentional? In MT the dmg from any firearm was reduced by<BR>&gt; distance and there was a much wider range of survival than in GT. I<BR>&gt; have not yet found a rule to solve this problem in GT, but must admit<BR>&gt; that I have only just begun playing with Gurps rules...<BR><BR>You'll find that all GURPS combat once firearms come into it is like that. The <BR>easiest way around it is to treat PGMP fire like that of guns, and thus subject <BR>to blow-through. This means that they'll get dropped but not killed by most <BR>shots.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship habitability<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 11:01, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; That's a different problem. Pay should be commensurate with the risks. Now<BR>&gt; realistically a medic, who is also under fire should be paid more than an<BR>&gt; infantryman. He takes the same risks and has more extensive training.<BR><BR>A properly trained regular infantryman is just as highly trained as the medic. <BR>Thinking that grunts aren't as skilled or trained is a common fallacy, though <BR>during a major war the infantry training standards do tend to drop.<BR><BR>&gt; An<BR>&gt; regular infantryman is like a police officer or fire fighter in that risks<BR>&gt; are part of the job and a premium should be paid for taking that risk.<BR>&gt; However, it is unrealistic to expect that having a higher risk job should<BR>&gt; cancel out all of the other factors. If the infantryman is unhappy with his lot,<BR>&gt; over time he can change it through education, training and plain hard work<BR>&gt; (working to advance.)<BR><BR>Except that advancement in the infantry usually isn't very fast, no matter what <BR>you do.<BR><BR>&gt; It is not the military's job (just as it is not my company's job) to train<BR>&gt; people to increase their marketability when they leave.<BR><BR>Of course not.<BR><BR>&gt; I don't know how the Army classifies new recruits, but in the Navy almost<BR>&gt; everyone is slated for a particular job when they sign on the dotted line.<BR>&gt; Anyone who would be considered good employee material by a civilian company will<BR>&gt; get the opportunity to attend advanced training before they ever come in. In 20<BR>&gt; something years I only ever knew one guy who came in to be a cook.<BR><BR>The NZ Army's cooks get London Chef's Guild quals, so they're highly qualified <BR>chef's if they put a bit of time in. Thus it's a fairly popular way of getting <BR>trained as a chef.<BR><BR>&gt; Most Mess<BR>&gt; Specialist enter that rate because they come in the Navy as an undesignated<BR>&gt; striker. These are the people who, quite honestly, are poor job prospects. They<BR>&gt; generally did marginally in high school (but generally completed it, since the<BR>&gt; Navy typically won't even look at you if you don't have a diploma,) they have no<BR>&gt; college or technical school training, their scores on the ASVAP (or whatever IQ<BR>&gt; test the services are now using) are low. They are people the Navy recruits<BR>&gt; because they need grunt work done. They are a risk the navy is taking. The<BR>&gt; service expects most to do 4 years and get out.<BR><BR>In our Army these people tend to end up in the Infantry, because the REMEs and <BR>Transport &amp; Catering have plenty of applicants and thus get the best personnel. <BR>This is not good, because the nature of modern warfare means that you need <BR>people with brains in your teeth arms.<BR><BR>&gt; ObTrav: (Yes I've got one.) Since we know (from canon) that the Imperial<BR>&gt; Navy can afford to be choosy are there any people who perform the "grunt"<BR>&gt; work?<BR><BR>The existence of a 'maintenence' crew in some design sequences implies that <BR>they do, though they could be supervisors for the 'bots.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3739<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3740</B></TD></TR>
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<TD vAlign=top width="10%">Date: </TD>
<TD>2/23/01 7:27:54 PM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, February 23 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3740<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: world series<BR>Re: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long<BR>Re: Allen Steele<BR>Re: [TML] Attn.: Penguin-Lovers<BR>Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: All your base are belong to us!<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>RE: Deep Space Jumps<BR>RE: Civility and Politeness.<BR>RE: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: Allen Steele<BR>RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal<BR>RE: [TML] Hull jump grids<BR>RE: Civility and Politeness.<BR>RE: Civility and Politeness.<BR>RE: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>On 24 Feb 2001, at 10:31, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote :<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; I cannot even imagine a football game being remotely<BR>&gt; &gt; interesting.&nbsp; This, of course, is due to my upbringing.<BR>&gt; &gt; Games go for 90 minutes, or more, and no one scores.&nbsp; Defense is far<BR>&gt; &gt; stronger and, thanks to the rules about passing the ball,<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; There are no rules about passing the ball.<BR><BR>I think he's talking about the off-side rule.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:12:06 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 17:06, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; That a 'free market' fosters choice, competition, and innovation is a <BR>&gt; delusion that libertarians, Rand-o-philes and conservative business <BR>&gt; commentators cling to like it's Linus's security blanket.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; That this is true is shown by examination of the most truly free market <BR>&gt; on the planet: organized crime. (By virtue of it's illegality, it <BR>&gt; operates entirely unfettered by government regulation, save one: don't <BR>&gt; get caught)<BR><BR>Another good example is the development of trade, towns and guilds in medieval <BR>Europe.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:28:19 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: Allen Steele<BR><BR>&gt; I have just started reading his stuff and I really like it.&nbsp; Anyone <BR>&gt; else like it, have thoughts on its relevance to Traveller, etc?<BR><BR>Don't recognize the name... what has he written?<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:07:46 -0500<BR>From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" &lt;caraig@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [TML] Attn.: Penguin-Lovers<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:26:52 -0700<BR>&gt;From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: Attn.: Penguin-Lovers<BR><BR>&gt;You would _prefer_ to be called Yog-Penguoth Lord of the Universe and<BR>&gt;Arch High Penguinboy, but I think we'll just call you Douglas. ;-P<BR><BR>*SPLORT* rack up a near-kill. =) As it is, I'm gonna have to clean cookie <BR>crumbs out of the keyboard....<BR><BR>By the way, who IS keeping track of keyboard kills now that the official <BR>killkeeper is away?<BR><BR>Cheers<BR><BR><BR>- ---<BR>==============================================================<BR>Jonathan McDermott&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; "Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -Steve Wozniak<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:19:00 -0800<BR>From: "Kelly St.Clair" &lt;kellys@efn.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR><BR>Sounds like your basic problem is that you're trying to keep your PCs alive <BR>on&nbsp; modern battlefields where lots of things are trying to make them <BR>(extremely) dead.&nbsp; This is a losing proposition in the long term.<BR><BR>Might I suggest that you explore ways of reducing how often your characters <BR>get into combat?&nbsp; It may not be as exciting, but the best way to survive a <BR>gunfight is not to get into one.<BR><BR>- --------------<BR>Kelly St.Clair&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "'Cause you've got Trouble<BR>kellys@efn.org&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Right here in fair Verona<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; With a capital T that rhymes with D<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; That stands for Duel..."<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:26:43 +0000<BR>From: "Doug C." &lt;dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>I've never noticed why collapsible tanks cant be used for jump, at least<BR>"interior" collapsible tanks.... Where in canon can you find this?<BR><BR>Doug?<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Timothy Little writes:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Needing hydrogen when you start jump is conical in Marc's recent<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; article.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; OK, that saves you the most since you don't actually need to carry<BR>&gt; &gt; huge volumes of fuel through jump.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; AKA 'drop tanks'.&nbsp; The mechanics involved might be a little tricky, however;<BR>&gt; enough to always have a misjump chance, say.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; However, you can do so in a collapsible or disposable fuel bladder<BR>&gt; &gt; that doesn't take up volume while in jump.&nbsp; Since 'volume in jump' is<BR>&gt; &gt; by far the biggest determinant of cost, you save heaps.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Supposedly collapsible fuel tanks cannot be used to fuel jump.&nbsp; It has never<BR>&gt; been explained exactly why.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:04:19 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: All your base are belong to us!<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:49:05 -0600<BR>&gt; From: Leslie Bates &lt;lesbates@minn.net&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: All your base are belong to us!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;X-Sender: danawolfe@uncia.com (Unverified)<BR>&gt; &gt;X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)<BR>&gt; &gt;Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:07:23 -0600<BR>&gt; &gt;To: lesbates@minn.net<BR>&gt; &gt;From: danawolfe@polaris.uncia.com<BR>&gt; &gt;Subject: All your base are belong to us!<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~pyang/base/allyourbase.swf<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Something my landlord forwarded to me.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; An adventure in bad translation.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Les<BR><BR>That was great!<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:49:10 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:24:46 +1300<BR>&gt; From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>&gt; It's a fault in the system, and I've yet to see a small arm desgin system<BR>that<BR>&gt; doesn't do this. There seems to be this weird idea that heavier bullets go<BR>&gt; further than light ones. While it is true over the mid-range of small arms<BR>it<BR>&gt; breaks down at the extremes, like sub-sonic rounds, where the drag from<BR>the air<BR>&gt; has less impact than the fact that the tracjectory is rather like a<BR>rain-bow. I<BR>&gt; suspect a fair bit of the problem comes from using projectile mass rather<BR>than<BR>&gt; sectional density in the algorithms.<BR><BR>So what kind of fix would you suggest for the range calculations to FFS?<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:43:15 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:42:51 +0100<BR>&gt; From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;weg&gt;<BR>&gt; ;-) I really like the name of that thing ;-)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Beest to be carried by "people" called Lister, if you can call them<BR>&gt; that ;-)<BR>&gt; &lt;/weg&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Volker<BR><BR>Well except for my lighter skin tone, the fact that my hair doesn't dread up<BR>quite so nattily (yes I know it's extensions) - oh, and the fact that I'm<BR>not<BR>stranded zillions of killometers from earth in the company of a defective<BR>computer, a hollogram of the most annoying person to have ever lived,<BR>and a being decended from my pet cat - I'm Lister to about ten decimal<BR>places.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:17:57 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:01:14 -0800<BR>&gt; From: Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; on 2/23/01 2:43 AM, DaveShayne at daveshayne@email.msn.com wrote:<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Sure. But I figured the ability to lay 3 rounds near target somewhat<BR>&gt; &gt; less accurately would compensate for a reduction of a single rounds<BR>&gt; &gt; accurate range. I suppose the TNE combat model could be broken.<BR>&gt; &gt; I can say with surety that the design rules tend to give *interesting*<BR>&gt; &gt; results. I like to play to the extremes and that shows up the<BR>limitations<BR>&gt; &gt; of the system more than usual.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This is starting to sound more like a support weapon than a sniper weapon.<BR><BR>More a slight rethinking of the concept. Between a choice of 10% longer<BR>range<BR>but a slower rate of fire and the shorter range but greater number of shots<BR>on<BR>target I chose greater shots on target (in part to offset opponent armor<BR>also<BR>in part to allow multiple targets) If I were doing a support weapon I'd bag<BR>the sound/flash suppression and use a much more normal small arms round.<BR><BR>&gt; A<BR>&gt; way to compensate for low velocity, high arc might be the use of an<BR>advanced<BR>&gt; computing gunsite that factors in range, target movement, humidity, wind,<BR>&gt; etc.<BR><BR>FFS doesn't seem to have rules/statistics for this. I used the optical+laser<BR>sight combination as allowing the best range/aimed fire options. (I could<BR>have bought the "electronic" sight option for Cr2000 but it only gave me<BR>an extra meter of range.)<BR><BR>Perhaps the electronic sight can be shoehorned into this role.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:36:08 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps<BR><BR>&gt;Much simpler. Buy a surplus battle rider "tender" (is that the right<BR>&gt;term) and build tanks that fit where the battle riders did. <BR><BR>Very good idea. me personally i like designated Tankers for civilian use.<BR>But for a military use this would be excellent and all that you would ahve<BR>to do is design the pods to use the same docking point as the battle riders.<BR><BR>&gt;In fact, come to think of it, the military ought to *have* such ships.<BR>&gt;A couple of those could establish one *hell* of a fuel depot in a<BR>&gt;hurry. Just the thing for that surprise attack across a rift. <BR><BR>Absolutly.<BR><BR>&gt;And after dropping tanks at the refueling point, they could jump<BR>&gt;insystem after the task force and pick up any riders whose tenders had<BR>&gt;been destroyed or damaged. <BR><BR>Gives your military tanker a double purpose.<BR><BR>Also talking about tankers with military vessles. that brings something else<BR>to my mind.<BR><BR>UNREP<BR><BR>underway replenshment. Would Military shipping in the Imperium find UNREP a<BR>worth while thing?<BR><BR>If a fleet jumps to point B and now they need to jump to point C where the<BR>attack will be. would it be faster for the fleet to practice some sort of<BR>UNREP? or would they just skim unrefined fuel?<BR><BR>I tend to think that some sort of UNREP would be the fastest way to refuel.<BR><BR>anyway just a thought<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:46:15 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.<BR><BR>&gt;I've been reading novel set in the Napoleonic era (Patrick O'Brien's <BR>&gt;Aubrey/Maturin series, and C.S.Forester's Hornblower series) and I <BR>&gt;like the style of speech used therein (which I take to be a fairly <BR>&gt;accurate depiction), where politeness and social graces and functions <BR>&gt;were more important (among the mid-to-upper-class anyway).<BR>&gt;"Killick, send the doctor my compliments and would he be so kind as<BR>&gt;to join me for dinner."&nbsp; In a ship 100-some feet long with 100+ men <BR>&gt;crammed onboard.&nbsp; Orders starting "You are hereby requested and <BR>&gt;required..." and other formalisms. I don't imagine MTU being just like <BR>&gt;that, but I can see where it'll influence it.&nbsp; (Hmm, boarding parties, <BR>&gt;cutting out expeditions, cutlasses and pikes, "Beat to quarters!", <BR>&gt;"Clear for action!"...)&nbsp; But I'm digressing.<BR><BR>I also have read the books from both these Series. Fantastic series of<BR>books. If you like them might i suggest Alexander Kent's Richard Bolitho<BR>Series. very simular to Hornblower in the fact that the main char starts out<BR>as a midshipman. And yes these works have impacted several things i do in my<BR>campains 8P<BR><BR>"beat to Quarters!"<BR>"Bosun Rig your chains and sand the decks!"<BR>"Run out the guns!" (for those ships equiped with retracting turrets 8P)<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:27:10 -0800<BR>From: "J-Man" &lt;jman31415@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)<BR><BR>GenTech is selling Micron brand PC133 256meg for 104.00 dollars, Leonard.<BR>You should know where Gentech is, it's on your side of the river.&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Ethan Henry<BR>Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 07:40<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com; shadow@krypton.rain.com<BR>Subject: OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)<BR><BR><BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Hey Doug, better up that memory now.&nbsp; We're paying $106 for 256 Meg<BR>DIMMs.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; *Where*? We just got quoted $131 for 256 meg, 133 DIMMs. And that's<BR>&gt; *dealer* price, not retail. Then again, it's Kingston.<BR><BR>$123 here for a 256 mes PC133 stick... CANADIAN. Haw!<BR>(I think that's about $88 US dollars).<BR><BR>BTW, on a related note...<BR><BR>Can any of our UK readers explain why they don't buy everything<BR>outside of the UK? Any consumer good, especially electronics,<BR>seems to cost the same in pounds as it does in dollars here.<BR><BR>Which is wierd when you consider that the pound is worth nearly<BR>$2.50 CDN.<BR><BR>If you wanted to buy a high-end piece of gear, like a camcorder,<BR>it seems like it would be cheaper to get a cheap flight to Canada<BR>and buy it here, cost of the flight included. What gives?<BR><BR>ObTrav: The PCs ship is chartered by a semi-wealthy family for a<BR>shopping expedition the next system over... and when they get back,<BR>they've got 12 dtons of cargo and the PCs have already filled the<BR>hold with groat pelts to sell. (well, not that exciting maybe, but<BR>it could LEAD to trouble...)<BR><BR>Ethan<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 16:20:14 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 21:17, DaveShayne wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:01:14 -0800<BR>&gt; &gt; From: Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; on 2/23/01 2:43 AM, DaveShayne at daveshayne@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sure. But I figured the ability to lay 3 rounds near target somewhat<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; less accurately would compensate for a reduction of a single rounds<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; accurate range. I suppose the TNE combat model could be broken.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I can say with surety that the design rules tend to give *interesting*<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; results. I like to play to the extremes and that shows up the<BR>&gt; limitations<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; of the system more than usual.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; This is starting to sound more like a support weapon than a sniper weapon.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; More a slight rethinking of the concept. Between a choice of 10% longer<BR>&gt; range<BR>&gt; but a slower rate of fire and the shorter range but greater number of shots on<BR>&gt; target I chose greater shots on target (in part to offset opponent armor also in<BR>&gt; part to allow multiple targets) If I were doing a support weapon I'd bag the<BR>&gt; sound/flash suppression and use a much more normal small arms round.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; A<BR>&gt; &gt; way to compensate for low velocity, high arc might be the use of an<BR>&gt; advanced<BR>&gt; &gt; computing gunsite that factors in range, target movement, humidity, wind, etc.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; FFS doesn't seem to have rules/statistics for this. I used the optical+laser<BR>&gt; sight combination as allowing the best range/aimed fire options. (I could have<BR>&gt; bought the "electronic" sight option for Cr2000 but it only gave me an extra<BR>&gt; meter of range.)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Perhaps the electronic sight can be shoehorned into this role.<BR><BR>Electronic sights also mean that the hit chance at extreme range is the same as <BR>at long range, and as the extreme range hit chance is only 20% even for a <BR>pretty good shot whereas the LR chance would be 40-45%, it's worth it.<BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:37:58 -0500<BR>From: Thom Jones-Low &lt;tjoneslo@together.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Allen Steele<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:41:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>&gt; From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Allen Steele<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I have just started reading his stuff and I really like it.&nbsp; Anyone else<BR>&gt; like it, have thoughts on its relevance to Traveller, etc?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Kiri<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; I've read "Tranquility Alternative" which I liked and "A king of<BR>infinte space" which I found disappointing. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mr. Steele writes a hard SF without delving into Cyberpunk and so is<BR>recommended for some Traveller background. <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; "Tranquility Alternative" is an alternative future of the Space program<BR>starting in 1944, intermixed with a story of espionage about trying to<BR>steal old nuclear warheads from the moon in 1995. There are some<BR>memorable bits and a good description of how our space program could<BR>have gone if funded differently. <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; "A King of Infinite Space" is a future history, where a eccentric rich<BR>man is reviving corpsicles for an unknown mission. The Tech is not much<BR>higher than Traveller, though there is more BioTech but no Jump Drive,<BR>but not much. I found I disliked the book because despite the characters<BR>making speeches about their ideals and the grand future of humanity,<BR>they all act like hedionist, self centered jerks. And the Author spends<BR>too much time abusing the protagonist for no apparent reason. <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; I may have fallen into the trap of staring with Mr. Steele's weaker<BR>works, so if anyone can recommend something better please let me know. <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; I've met Mr. Steele at previous year's ReaderCon's. He is a nice man,<BR>and as expected by a hard SF writer, very sharp about his science and<BR>very good with the history as well, and an excellent con guest. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thomas Jones-Low<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; tjoneslo@together.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:38:14 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal<BR><BR>You know this sounds like a great topic to write something up for traveller.<BR>I dont know of anything that covers this. of course i could be wrong. <BR><BR>If this were&nbsp; a good subject then i would start out by reviewing actual<BR>customs in known Kingdoms for refrencing nobility. IE the french Monarchy,<BR>UK back then, ect.. ect..<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Sink me, but who did his cravat?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Customs and Etiquette of the Imperial Court<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; How about some examples.<BR><BR>&gt;I always liked "Ser" from L.E.Modesitt's books for a gender-neutral<BR>non-official "Sir".<BR><BR>&gt;How are female knights of the Imperium addressed?&nbsp; "Lady"?&nbsp; That's<BR>&gt;boring<BR>&gt;and possibly confused with a female non-title holding spouse/consort of<BR>&gt;any<BR>&gt;noble, isn't it?&nbsp; Or would the wife always have the female version of<BR>&gt;her<BR>&gt;spouse's title?&nbsp; Is it "Baron and Lady", or "Baron and Baroness"?<BR><BR>&gt;bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:43:41 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: [TML] Hull jump grids<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "I've seen this mod on the net as well, and I rather like the way it <BR>&gt;breaks things down.&nbsp; I think it's actually a very good idea for<BR>&gt;battleriders to be equipted with the hull nets while the monstrous drive <BR>&gt;coils and the powerplant themselves are located in the battle carrier or <BR>&gt;battle tender."<BR><BR>&gt;Mr. McDermott,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; If your riders are equipped with the hull nets and you lose some or<BR>all <BR>&gt;to battle, is you tender then unable to jump?<BR><BR><BR>Would be my guess that the tender has its on jump grid and that when a<BR>Battleride Docks it "hooks" in its jump grid to the tenders. this way your<BR>battle riders would not need a jump drive at all. and iff all the battle<BR>riders were destroyed The tender could still jump out.<BR><BR>But that is my guess<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:57:43 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.<BR><BR>Please remember one thing about the crew berthing your discussing.<BR><BR>1) these are all military vessles.<BR>2) the crew requirments tu run a ship of nepolionic era are totally<BR>different than modern warships.<BR>3) compairing Military quarters on military warships to civilan quarters on<BR>civilian ships is diffrent im sure.<BR><BR>The crew of a Super tanker or a freighter will probably have much more room<BR>than a Military vessel. Also it will take a lof fewer people to run civilian<BR>ship than a military one. <BR><BR>hasta<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Larsen E. Whipsnade [mailto:grote1731@hotmail.com]<BR>Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:47 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.<BR><BR><BR>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain &lt;alasdair.maciain@snet.net&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Under the mattress is the coffin locker, which is the width<BR>and length of said mattress, and maybe four inches deep; this, plus a<BR>small locker about the size of two shoeboxes..."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I've been out for close to 14 years now.&nbsp; After reading the description<BR><BR>of the coffin locker above, I realize it's dimensions are closer to reality <BR>than the 8"-10" depth I wrote about in my previous post.&nbsp; One fact I didn't <BR>mention in my long screed was the the narrowness between racks.&nbsp; I'm no <BR>Charles Atlas, but my shoulders brushed my reading light whenever I turned <BR>over too.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; We lucked out when compared to the boats though.&nbsp; Our perpetually <BR>undermanned status meant that we never had to "hot rack".&nbsp; Still, as a "sub <BR>vol" who was "involuntarily surfaced" for the "needs of the Navy", I'd have <BR>given my eyeteeth for a fast attack.&nbsp; I was so disappointed at not recieving<BR><BR>orders to a sub that a withdrew my already approved NROTC request.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As an aside, the Navy decommisioned all 9 nuc cruisers through the <BR>'90s, my ship, California, being the last.&nbsp; They simply worth manning <BR>anymore.&nbsp; The Ticonderoga class provided the same firepower with a smaller <BR>crew.&nbsp; Then VP Gore made some reference about this being done for <BR>"enviromental" reasons.&nbsp; A typical lie from the moral lepers of the last <BR>administration.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:13:02 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Jones, Dean [mailto:Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com]<BR>Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 4:00 AM<BR>To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Thank you Mr. Broussard.&nbsp; I've known of "Sharpe" books from my father <BR>&gt; and in the library but hadn't recalled them til now, I'll add them to <BR>&gt; my list. :)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I like that view of the Imperial Marines as well.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Rob D.<BR><BR>&gt;Also check out the TV adaptions of the Sharpe series starring Sean Bean<BR>(008<BR>&gt;from Tomorrow Never Dies)<BR><BR>&gt;Dean<BR><BR>What is the name of the series? also is it available on tape or DVD? I dont<BR>have a tv at home except to watch tapes or DVDs 8)<BR><BR>Kind of nice really dont miss a lot. I do wished i could see this new<BR>Andromeda Series though. If anyone is taping it please let me know i would<BR>be willing to pay for some tapes to get a copy so i can see it.<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:28:09 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)<BR><BR>Ummm...<BR><BR>Can i use that jet bike please 8)<BR><BR>With some of the crazy things people do now i could just see a GJBRA form. <BR><BR>Guys whos sole purpose is to tinker with them, trick them out, Drink beer,<BR>and boast about the fastest Jet Bike.<BR><BR>I am sure they would try to find ways to make them as Ummm.. "safe" as they<BR>can get them 8P (please note Dr. Evil quotes around the word safe 8P)<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: John Groth [mailto:wombat@premier.net]<BR>Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:37 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)<BR><BR><BR>Ian or Katts wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&lt;&lt;snip&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; PS Our competitors would slander us by stating that 'operator safety' did<BR>not appear on the list of FS<BR>&gt; design goals. At FS, your safety comes first, second and third.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; PPS There is no truth to a recall notice on the Jet Bike. All instances of<BR>product failure can be<BR>&gt; attributed to operator error (could someone re-post the Jet Bike ? Think<BR>of it as a ME-262 rigged up for<BR>&gt; personal transport).<BR><BR>As per your request:<BR><BR>**begin repost (original posted 18 Mar 2000)**<BR><BR><BR>The Famile Spofulam Jet Bike.<BR><BR>Maximum speed of 1050 km per hour, accelerating to that speed with 87<BR>seconds of thrust. A total thrust-time of 172 seconds is provided.<BR>Fuelled by 100 kg of hypergolic fuel, this baby tests the pilot to the<BR>absolute limit.<BR><BR>Needless to say, this is a high performance, fly-by-2mm-steel-wire<BR>aircraft for the discerning gentleman. Knowledge of computer assisted<BR>flying programs is not a requirement. Prospective owners are advised to<BR>check with local authorities regarding environmental issues and flight<BR>control requirements.<BR><BR>Pilots are strongly advised not to remove the safety interlocks, as<BR>doing so may invalidate the warranty on the vehicle and thus subject the<BR>operator to severe legal risks if the vehicle goes uncontrolled and<BR>damage to life or property occours.<BR><BR>The total unit masses 300 kg, and have a frame designed to support 400<BR>kg.&nbsp;&nbsp; Intending operators of more than 100 kg mass are advised to<BR>contact your local Famile Spofulam representitives about custom models.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>*********************************************************************<BR><BR>1.7 kN thrust Hypergolic Liquid Rocket ; 0.013t, KCr 23. Consumes 2.074<BR>m3 fuel per hour<BR><BR>100 kg of hypergolic fuel (hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide = "Ditzie's<BR>Favorite Gloop") will therefore last 172 seconds, and cost Cr 40.<BR><BR>0.4 t Transonic airframe ; 0.04t, KCr<BR><BR>Basic Mechanical Crewstation ; 0.1 t, KCr 0.3<BR><BR>100 kg pilot ; 0.1t, KCr Free<BR><BR>35 kg Parachute ; 0.035t, KCr 1<BR><BR>Max speed 1100 km per hour. 5 maneuver points. 0.17 maintenence points. <BR>KCr 38.3 (TL6 credits, too).&nbsp; Accelerates at 3.325 m/s, or about 12 km<BR>per hour per second. Glide ratio of 10%.<BR><BR>NB If you leave the pedal on the metal, the airframe breaks up once it<BR>goes over 1100 km per hour in a standard atmosphere. We cannot either<BR>confirm or deny rumours of the release of a&nbsp; racing model at this point<BR>in time.<BR><BR>Referees notes : I guess you should put "Jet Bike" into the Vehicle<BR>cluster.&nbsp; This thing is suicide on a stick, in my opinion.<BR><BR>(c) Ian Whitchurch 2000. Not to be reprinted without permission, but<BR>personal use is OK.<BR><BR>**end repost**<BR><BR>- -- <BR>AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR><BR>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3740<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xc04.mx.aol.com (rly-xc04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.137]) by air-xc05.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:27:54 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xc04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:27:13 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA21793;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:25:34 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:24:52 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA21625<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:24:52 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:24:52 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102240324.WAA21625@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3740<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Saturday, February 24 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3741<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Democracy Now!<BR>RE: Civility and Politeness.<BR>RE: Interesting spots to visit<BR>Re: Deep Space Jumps<BR>"Refined" fuel<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>RE: What could go wrong?<BR>RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR>RE: world series<BR>RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>RE: All your base are belong to us!<BR>Re Bayonets and Training Experiences <BR>RE: [Website Review] <BR>RE: [Website Review] <BR>RE: All your base are belong to us!<BR>Allen Steele/Brian Daley<BR>Re: Temp Conversion<BR>Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>Re: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:18:10 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;And there may be a significant amount of actual history that<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion.&nbsp; For<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;example, the United States of America until the invention of<BR>&gt;&gt; the telegraph.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the Imperium<BR>faces.<BR><BR>&gt;Oh? Check the travel times between California and the east coast back<BR>&gt;before the railroad. <BR><BR>Clipper ship was around 120 days around cape horn. little faster or little<BR>slower depending on winds. infact the merchant companies would use their<BR>fastest time from new york to San francsico as an advertising scheme.<BR><BR>Hope this helps hasta<BR><BR>Me<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:33:37 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.<BR><BR>Yes that is a pretty accurate description of current Naval berthing<BR>arrangements.<BR><BR>there are a few differences between Sub surface and surface fleet.<BR><BR>No hot racking 8P<BR><BR>Also i did not hear him mention a chiefs quarters or (as i was told goat<BR>locker). On a surface ship they were fairly nice. at least the one time i<BR>saw them 8P<BR><BR>Also shower arrangements. Showering consisited of a small line with a nozzel<BR>with a single button. You turned on the water just as you do at home however<BR>no water would come out till you hit that button. Your bathing procedure was<BR>simply.<BR><BR>Rinse down.<BR>Soap up<BR>Rinse off<BR>Dry off<BR>get dressed 8P<BR><BR>Also for some damn reason the Navy has this habit of giving the Engineers<BR>berthing directly over the shafts. so your berthing gets noisy on high speed<BR>runs. makes it a pain if your trying to catch a few hours shut eye before<BR>your next watch 8P<BR><BR>hasta<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Rob Davenport [mailto:rgd@ohio.voyager.net]<BR>Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 12:01 PM<BR>To: Larsen E. Whipsnade; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Cc: rgd@bigfoot.com<BR>Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.<BR><BR><BR>Wow, Bill.&nbsp; Thanks for the great description.&nbsp; I certainly count<BR>myself lucky at not having to have slept in those tight bunks (being <BR>6'1'" and 270#s it'd not have been pleasant sleeping!). And not boring<BR>at all - very interesting!<BR><BR>Rob<BR>On 16 Feb 2001, at 3:20, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The lack of berthing areas in any Trav design systems has always <BR>&gt; puzzled me too.&nbsp; In the very few deckplans I've drawn, I've simply used<BR>the <BR>&gt; tonnage alloted to those staterooms and used it to create berthing and rec<BR><BR>&gt; areas aboard.&nbsp; Junior officers slept 2 to a stateroom (in bunks) and<BR>seniors <BR>&gt; got a single.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 42 men in my divsion slept in our berthing area.&nbsp; Our head, one deck <BR>&gt; above, had 2 commodes and 2 urinals (flushed with seawater), 2 showers and<BR>4 <BR>&gt; sinks.&nbsp; The racks were stacked 3 high, not too bad when considering that <BR>&gt; they were stacked higher in WW2.&nbsp; We also had a smaller area next to the <BR>&gt; head that held 9 men and was called "9 man" (not very original).&nbsp; Senior <BR>&gt; members of our division slept there.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Engineering was always undermanned, usually somewhere around the <BR>&gt; mid-80% range, so there were berthing areas on the ship not filled to <BR>&gt; capacity.&nbsp; I don't remember more than 1 or 2 empty racks at any given<BR>time.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; If we'd been at 100%, others in our division would have slept elsewhere.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Undermanning meant that we normally stood "Six and sixes", 6 hours on<BR><BR>&gt; watch and six hours off as long as the reactors were up.&nbsp; Add that to your<BR><BR>&gt; maintenance and training duties and there wasn't much time for anythig<BR>else. <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I finally got to stand "four and eights" during my last 18 months or so <BR>&gt; after qualifying for senior watch posisitons.&nbsp; The watches were shared<BR>with <BR>&gt; the E7+ personnel.&nbsp; They slept in chief's berthing and only stacked two <BR>&gt; high.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; While underway, berthing was lit with red lights to allow the guys to<BR><BR>&gt; sleep, except for the few hours it was being clean.&nbsp; Other than the 8 hour<BR><BR>&gt; work day, half the division was tryinf to sleep at any given time.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Laundry was stored in two huge lockers and taken to the ship's<BR>laundry <BR>&gt; twice a week.&nbsp; You might try and imagine what the socks, skivvies,<BR>t-shirts, <BR>&gt; pants, shirt, sheets, and towels for 42 men for 4 days smells like.&nbsp; My <BR>&gt; father, who once enjoyed a foxhole in Korea, described his impression of a<BR><BR>&gt; visit to berthing rather succintly.&nbsp; All he said was "Feet and farts".&nbsp; He<BR><BR>&gt; also said he'd prefer the foxhole.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On the other side of the forward bulkhead was #2 engine room, both <BR>&gt; propeller shafts ran beneath the compartment, and an emergency diesel was <BR>&gt; just aft.&nbsp; The area was a "hazardous noise area" underway, requiring ear <BR>&gt; plugs.&nbsp; It was finally lined with sound proof materials on the bulkheads <BR>&gt; during my 3rd year there.&nbsp; Our commodes got stalls around them at the same<BR><BR>&gt; time.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; With engineroom "next door", men could wake up and list the the <BR>&gt; equipment change overs and drill sets run in #2 ER during their sleep.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Your rack was also your locker.&nbsp; The mattress, about 2" thick, sat<BR>atop <BR>&gt; the locker's lid.&nbsp; The locker itself was 8-10" deep and divided into a few<BR><BR>&gt; compartments and a drawer.&nbsp; The rack measured about 6' by 2' and a reading<BR><BR>&gt; lamp hung above it.&nbsp; "Privacy" was provided by a set of curtains.&nbsp; You had<BR><BR>&gt; another locker, similar to the ones in your high school gym, for<BR>additional <BR>&gt; storage.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; My division was fortunate to have our office directly below our <BR>&gt; berthing area.&nbsp; It was tucked between the two shafts and let us watch TV, <BR>&gt; play games, write letters, etc. without bothering those asleep.&nbsp; We were <BR>&gt; lucky to have it.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One side of our berthing area was formed by the ship's hull.&nbsp; During <BR>&gt; our many "visits" 12 miles off Kamchatka, ice would form on that bulkhead.<BR><BR>&gt; Especially rough seas could toss men out of their racks despite our being <BR>&gt; below the waterline.&nbsp; During our visit to the Persian Gulf, the area was <BR>&gt; ventilated, but not air conditioned.&nbsp; Occasional bursts of sand would come<BR><BR>&gt; through the vents.&nbsp; The heat made it more comfortable to sleep on the <BR>&gt; linoleuum deck rather than your rack.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I hope this all ddin't bore you.&nbsp; But I figured I might as well<BR>provide <BR>&gt; as many details as possible, so you can pick up some for your campaigns.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Have fun.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Larsen<BR>&gt; _________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt; Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>'Better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot.'<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:55:52 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Interesting spots to visit<BR><BR>&gt;They have a M-60 cut in half, the two halves about &gt;2 meters apart.&nbsp; Set up<BR><BR>&gt;very nicely with mannequins &amp; plexiglass to show &gt;the interior layout.<BR><BR>if you like that then you would like to go to the George S. patton museum at<BR>Fort Knox kentucky. The have a German King Tiger tank cut away don simular<BR>to that. Among all the other stuff they got there 8P<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:27:39 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps<BR><BR>William Lane wrote:<BR>&gt; If a fleet jumps to point B and now they need to jump to point C where the<BR>&gt; attack will be. would it be faster for the fleet to practice some sort of<BR>&gt; UNREP? or would they just skim unrefined fuel?<BR><BR>Almost certainly UNREP.&nbsp; Purpose-designed refined fuel pumps *have* to<BR>be faster than getting within 100D of a large body, carefully braking<BR>into its atmosphere, collecting its fuel, and getting back out to the<BR>jump limit.&nbsp; With tankers you just travel a few thousand km to the<BR>tanker (instead of millions of km to a planet) and you're ready to go.<BR><BR>The only proviso would be that you must have (or can bring) enough<BR>tankers into system B to do the job.&nbsp; Each tanker would skim fuel to<BR>keep itself topped up though.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:36:53 -0600<BR>From: Victor Jason Raymond &lt;vraymond@iastate.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: "Refined" fuel<BR><BR>Dear TMLers,<BR><BR>Back in the mists of time (or about five-six years ago), there was an <BR>explanation offered by a list-member of what was meant by "refined" fuel.<BR><BR>IIRC, there was a sort of liquid hydrogen - or perhaps a process that could <BR>be applied to it - that caused the "fuel" to be particularly pure or <BR>uniform in character.&nbsp; I can't find the post in my somewhat-fragmented <BR>archives, but I just *bet* somebody here would recall what I am talking <BR>about.&nbsp; It was an application of a RL chemistry/physics "Obscure Fact" <BR>(maybe a particular *sort* of hydrogen?).<BR><BR>Does anybody remember this explanation?&nbsp; Much appreciation for any response.<BR><BR><BR>Victor J. Raymond<BR>Department of Sociology, ISU<BR>vraymond@iastate.edu<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:15:07 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 16:20:14 +1300<BR>&gt; From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Perhaps the electronic sight can be shoehorned into this role.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Electronic sights also mean that the hit chance at extreme range is the<BR>same as<BR>&gt; at long range, and as the extreme range hit chance is only 20% even for a<BR>&gt; pretty good shot whereas the LR chance would be 40-45%, it's worth it.<BR><BR>Good point. I'll have to add it to the mark 2.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:47:11 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>How about On the forward Landing gear one of the "Down and Locked" switches<BR>have an intermittent short in it. so that the light on the instrument panel<BR>blinks off and on erratically. corrective measure would be to replace the<BR>switch.<BR><BR>How about an Air Lock Door Switch that will only open the door when the<BR>switch is toggled "forcefully".<BR><BR>The Septic system on the ship was built with substandard parts. the Holding<BR>tank Nozzles where the hoses connect does not have any small ridges to help<BR>seal. this has caused a small leak if the "fluids" inside the tank. this has<BR>given a certain section of the ship a Distinctive smell. Corrective action<BR>would be to replace holding tank and hoses with proper parts.<BR><BR>A distinctive rattle/squeak in the Air ventilation system. this could be<BR>caused by the bearings on a fan to be going out or a fan blade to be<BR>slightly bent.<BR><BR>When underway the crew finds that there are several spots in the floor where<BR>the gravity is slightly lighter than the rest of the ship. upon inspection<BR>they find that the gravity equipment had been pulled in these areas to make<BR>room for smuggling illegal cargos.<BR><BR><BR>Me <BR><BR>Hasta<BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk<BR>[mailto:mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk]<BR>Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:27 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Cc: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk<BR>Subject: Re: What could go wrong?<BR><BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;3a95bfed.6339290@post.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>A really strange smell... which can ultimately be traced to half of a <BR>groat sandwich left somewhere deep within cable trunking by a dockyard <BR>matey.<BR><BR>At least one computer programme whose interface module is incompletely <BR>translated from a language that none of the characters knows. (I once had <BR>a CAD package of German origin, which was fine except when you wanted to <BR>answer 'Yes' to a prompt you had to enter 'J' for 'Ja' instead of 'Y'!)<BR><BR>Mysterious knocking noises - again probably some loose object left behind <BR>by a workman. Probably only manifest themselves when a particular <BR>manoeuvre is performed.<BR><BR>A reactor that is always convinced it's overheating however hard you run <BR>the coolant through it.<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:42:23 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722<BR><BR>&gt;The fact that Traveller has all of these 'system defense fleets', that are<BR>&gt;apparently locally controlled, is one of the strongest arguments against<BR>the<BR>&gt;existence of a strong central imperium.&nbsp; Imagine what the US would be if<BR>all<BR>&gt;fifty states had their own armed forces, and you have the Imperium.<BR><BR>This existed one time in the United States Pre 1860. There was the Federal<BR>government and each of the states where responsable for producing units for<BR>the army for the federal/confederate governments. This war was a war that<BR>decided that from that time on there would be a strong federal government.<BR>That is why before and during the civil war you see Units like<BR><BR>12th Illinois Volunteer Infantry<BR>32nd Alabama Volunteer Infantry (my Great grand dads unit. )<BR>15th new york Artillary<BR><BR>and why after the war there was a restructuring of the armys. and then you<BR>had things like<BR><BR>7th US calvary<BR><BR>OBTrav: The Players are scouts pulled back into service to provide scouting<BR>and recon for the imperial navy. they get assigned to 5th Regina Defence<BR>Fleet which is being sent to crush the enemy on a moon in a near by system.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:36:05 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>Tell me when i love live baseball 8) which is weird my favorite times are<BR>the small teams not the major leagues. Houwever if i had to choose a Major<BR>league team it would be the cubbies 8P<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Glenn Goffin [mailto:gmgoffin@yahoo.com]<BR>Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 4:32 PM<BR>To: traveller mailing aa list<BR>Subject: re: world series<BR><BR><BR>&gt;From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;I don't like baseball.&nbsp; Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow.&nbsp; I like soccer<BR><BR>That's why it's the most popular sport in Japan.&nbsp; It's a long, meditative,<BR>war.&nbsp; It's the only spectator sport involving balls and teams that I can<BR>stand to watch.&nbsp; I'll bet we could get a Trav-in-SF group out for a day<BR>game this summer.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices!<BR>http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:26:04 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>&gt;Your essay assignment:&nbsp; Laser weaponry in Traveller.&nbsp; What do you see as<BR>&gt;the advantages/disadvantages to personal lasers, and in what roles would<BR>&gt;they be found?<BR><BR><BR>Now why couldnt i ahve had that essay assignment i could ahve written<BR>something on that 8P<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:22:43 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: All your base are belong to us!<BR><BR>What this is from is a message board.<BR><BR>I play online compuetr games. well someone posteda&nbsp; thread about this one<BR>game. it was originally coded in Japan. well when they sent it to the us the<BR>translated the beginning story into english. well they did not do a very<BR>good job of it to put it mildly.<BR><BR>well a couple of people made a few pictures with the phrase "all you base<BR>are belong to us" doctored into them. well next thing you knew there were<BR>several hundered posts with pictures with that phrase worked into the<BR>picture somewhere.<BR><BR>It blows my mind how this is spreading. People at work who know nothing<BR>about the game or how this got started are do this "all you base are belong<BR>to us" thing. sort of funny in a disturbing lemming kind of way 8P<BR><BR>most of the pictures used in that little clip are ones that were pulled from<BR>the thread.<BR><BR>anyway that is what it is and where it comes from<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>Me<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]<BR>Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 10:49 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: All your base are belong to us!<BR><BR><BR>&gt;X-Sender: danawolfe@uncia.com (Unverified)<BR>&gt;X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)<BR>&gt;Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:07:23 -0600<BR>&gt;To: lesbates@minn.net<BR>&gt;From: danawolfe@polaris.uncia.com<BR>&gt;Subject: All your base are belong to us!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~pyang/base/allyourbase.swf<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Something my landlord forwarded to me.<BR><BR>An adventure in bad translation.<BR><BR><BR>Les<BR><BR>=======================================================<BR>Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.<BR>=======================================================<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:51:48 -0500<BR>From: "Daniel Phelps" &lt;phelpsd@gate.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re Bayonets and Training Experiences <BR><BR>Was written:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Ah, yes. Reminds me of the bad ol' days at MCRD. The DI is demonstrating<BR>&gt;&gt;the proper thrust/recover for bayonet work.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;DI: "In the event that your bayonet becomes lodged in the body of<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; your opponent, a simple discharge of your weapon is usually<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; sufficient to dislodge the blade."<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Recruit: "Ah, Gunnery Sgt.&nbsp; If I'm still capable of discharging my weapon,<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; there ain't gonna *BE* no bayonet combat!!"<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR><BR><BR>Reminds me of an incident from my two year Army ROTC Basic course at Ft.<BR>Knox back in 1973.&nbsp; I kid you not, the object of the day's lesson was to<BR>guess what prepositioned holes various squad and platoon level weapons<BR>should be placed.<BR><BR>Infantry captain&nbsp; standing in front of the holes potificates:<BR><BR>"CADETS THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS DUG THESE HOLES FOR US!&nbsp; DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE<BR>SECOND MISSION OF THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS IS!"<BR><BR>Yours truly, the wiseacre in the back, calls out:<BR><BR>"FILL IN THE HOLES!"<BR><BR>Captain was not amused.&nbsp;&nbsp; He never did figure out who the wiseacre was.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:11:32 -0000<BR>From: "Antony Farrell" &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: [Website Review] <BR><BR>I have to admit I am a little disappointed, here I am about to do some more<BR>work on my website and having asked for some constructive criticism, and<BR>what response do I get.<BR>None<BR><BR>I'm just soo depressed, I may have to get work as a car park attendant.<BR><BR>If anyone wants to have a look its at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran<BR><BR>Antony<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:42:31 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: [Website Review] <BR><BR>On 24 Feb 2001, at 13:11, Antony Farrell wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I have to admit I am a little disappointed, here I am about to do some more work<BR>&gt; on my website and having asked for some constructive criticism, and what<BR>&gt; response do I get. None<BR><BR>How about some more detail on the worlds of the various polities? And of course <BR>a description of the Daanan Empire.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:26:15 -0800<BR>From: "J-Man" &lt;jman31415@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: All your base are belong to us!<BR><BR>It reminds me of the old Demo scene..Anyone still remember Skaven and the<BR>rest of Future Crew?&nbsp; IMHO they made the best demos.<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Leslie Bates<BR>Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 10:49<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: All your base are belong to us!<BR><BR><BR>&gt;X-Sender: danawolfe@uncia.com (Unverified)<BR>&gt;X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)<BR>&gt;Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:07:23 -0600<BR>&gt;To: lesbates@minn.net<BR>&gt;From: danawolfe@polaris.uncia.com<BR>&gt;Subject: All your base are belong to us!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~pyang/base/allyourbase.swf<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Something my landlord forwarded to me.<BR><BR>An adventure in bad translation.<BR><BR><BR>Les<BR><BR>=======================================================<BR>Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.<BR>=======================================================<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:16:39 -0800<BR>From: "A. O'Mary" &lt;omary@my-deja.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Allen Steele/Brian Daley<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:41:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>&gt;From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Allen Steele<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I have just started reading his stuff and I really like it.&nbsp; Anyone else<BR>&gt;like it, have thoughts on its relevance to Traveller, etc?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Kiri<BR><BR>Hmm, not yet.&nbsp; :-) Are most of his titles still in print?<BR>On the subject of authors, I've enjoyed the Hobart Floyt/Alacrity Fitzhugh books by Brian Daley as a source of 'cinematic' situations and background material for campaigns. Has anyone else read these?<BR><BR>ALO<BR><BR><BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>- --== Sent via Deja.com ==--<BR>http://www.deja.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:13:28 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Temp Conversion<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin to Farenhite?<BR><BR>Multiply by 1.8. That converts them to Rankine, which uses Fahrenheit<BR>degrees, but like Kelvin, starts at absolute 0.<BR><BR>Then subtract 459.67. That moves the zero point from absolute zero to<BR>the Fahrenheit 0.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:25:18 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Leonard Erickson wrote :<BR>&gt;&gt; Well, the box I'm in the process of building is an AMD K6-2-500 (the<BR>&gt;&gt; motherboard can't handle anything faster). 320 meg of RAM, I gig gig<BR>&gt;&gt; Jaz drive, 100 meg Zip drive, etc. I haven't selected an HD yet, and<BR>&gt;&gt; I'm not sure how fast the CD is. It'll have a 100baseTX NIC, though.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; It'll connect to my 17 inch monitor via the same electronic KVM box the<BR>&gt;&gt; current system is using.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; That'll give me this, after I get done re-arranging stuff:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; OS&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CPU&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; RAM&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Purpose<BR>&gt;&gt; -----------&nbsp;&nbsp; ------------&nbsp; &nbsp; ---&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ------------------<BR>&gt;&gt; OS/2 Warp 4&nbsp;&nbsp; AMD K6-2-500&nbsp; &nbsp; 320&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "main box"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Gee, someones still using OS/2 ?<BR>&gt; Even IBM aren't doing that anymore ! &lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>Want to bet? They've *guaranteed* support for 5 more years. Which is<BR>more than Microsoft will do with Windows.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Win98&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; AMD K6-2-300&nbsp; &nbsp; 320&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Windows box<BR>&gt;&gt; MacOS 7.6.2&nbsp;&nbsp; 68040 (LC-475)&nbsp; ???&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Mac stuff<BR>&gt;&gt; Netware 4.2&nbsp;&nbsp; Pentium 166&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 256?&nbsp; &nbsp; file server<BR>&gt;&gt; DR-DOS 7.03&nbsp;&nbsp; 486DX2-66&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 64&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; uucp/fidonet<BR>&gt;&gt; "linux"&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 386DX-???&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; firewall<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Note that other than the firewall and the file server, all of these<BR>&gt;&gt; will be using the *same* monitor. And all but the Mac will be using the<BR>&gt;&gt; same keyboard and mouse. :-)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hmm, I _could_ list all the computers on my home LAN, ignoring all the ones<BR>&gt; in the garage for the moment, but suffice it to say that other than the Bay<BR>&gt; Networks router none are less than P166, and there are seven of them,<BR>&gt; including a PIII 650Mhz Toshiba lap-top. More when my eldest son is home<BR>&gt; from university.<BR><BR>I've only got a 10 user liCense for Netware. And I have some other<BR>systems I may hook up eventually, older, but still quite useful.<BR><BR>&gt; But then I get an new one every year or two, and I never get rid of the old<BR>&gt; ones.<BR><BR>I wasn't able to afford new ones for quite a few years. <BR><BR>&gt; I wonder if I can link my BBC B into the network ?<BR>&gt; Was a pretty hot machine back in the eighties, Rockwell 65C02 clocked up to<BR>&gt; 6Mhz or thereabouts with 256K of RAM and 12 sideways ROM slots.<BR>&gt; Anyone know if you can modify eco-net to work with ethernet ?<BR>&gt; &lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>I *can* hook the Apple clones and possible some of the TRS80 boxes up.<BR>And least the hardware is available. Gett the software so there's any<BR>*point* in doing so is a different matter.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:37:45 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>On 02/24/01 at 09:43 AM,&nbsp; "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;Leonard Erickson wrote :<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; That'll give me this, after I get done re-arranging stuff:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; OS&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CPU&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; RAM&nbsp; &nbsp; Purpose<BR>&gt;&gt; -----------&nbsp; &nbsp; ------------&nbsp; &nbsp; ---&nbsp; &nbsp; ------------------<BR>&gt;&gt; OS/2 Warp 4 &nbsp; &nbsp; AMD K6-2-500&nbsp; &nbsp; 320&nbsp; &nbsp; "main box"<BR><BR>&gt;Gee, someones still using OS/2 ?<BR>&gt;Even IBM aren't doing that anymore ! &lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>Why stop using what works?&nbsp; &lt;g&gt; I have two systems running OS/2 Warp 3 Connect. One is a "headless" communciation and print server on my lan (486DX33 with 16 meg) and the other I'm sitting in front of right now (P5-100 with 40 meg).&nbsp; About the only thing I use this system for any more is email, but it's been working great since '94. &lt;g&gt; My newer, more powerful systems are running various versions of Win and Linux.&nbsp; If I don't watch out, I'll soon have more computers than I have rooms. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:37:45 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: The spirit of the game<BR><BR>Am Saturday, February 24, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR><BR>&gt; "Only pure-blooded Vilani who grew up in the Vilani traditions can really<BR>&gt; understand what the shugili brings to the dinner table."<BR>Your cousins?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3741<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3742</B></TD></TR>
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<TD vAlign=top width="10%">Date: </TD>
<TD>2/24/01 10:26:30 AM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Saturday, February 24 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3742<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR>That really big research vessel<BR>RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>Re: Temp Conversion<BR>Re: "Refined" fuel<BR>Re : Indefinite Life Span<BR>RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR>Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR>Re : Indefinite Life Span<BR>RE: All your base are belong to us!<BR>Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR>D6 traveller<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: world series<BR>Broadsword Inquiry<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR>Re: "Refined" fuel<BR>Adventure 8<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:40:04 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR><BR>Am Saturday, February 24, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR><BR>&gt; In-Reply-To: &lt;113344397.20010223193111@greimann.de&gt;<BR>&gt; Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>&gt; It sounds quite reasonable to me - any damage that is going to get through <BR>&gt; a suit of really solid armour isn't going to do much good to the human <BR>&gt; being (or member of other species, as appropriate) <BR><BR>Still, i dont really like killing my party, but you can only "adjust"<BR>the die rolls ever so often...<BR><BR>I think Ill try this blowthrough rule David suggested...<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:00:15 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: That really big research vessel<BR><BR>Hi, I was looking through my archives of stuff looted from the TML for that <BR>really big research vessel someone did, and I seem to have lost it. I would be <BR>really grateful if the perpertrator could send me a copy. It's for a good cause <BR>- - a GURPS list guy said he though that Traveller didn't do munchkins. :)<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:00:15 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>On 24 Feb 2001, at 0:37, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On 02/24/01 at 09:43 AM,&nbsp; "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt; said:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;Leonard Erickson wrote :<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; That'll give me this, after I get done re-arranging stuff:<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; OS&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CPU&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; RAM&nbsp; &nbsp; Purpose<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; -----------&nbsp; &nbsp; ------------&nbsp; &nbsp; ---&nbsp; &nbsp; ------------------<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; OS/2 Warp 4 &nbsp; &nbsp; AMD K6-2-500&nbsp; &nbsp; 320&nbsp; &nbsp; "main box"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;Gee, someones still using OS/2 ?<BR>&gt; &gt;Even IBM aren't doing that anymore ! &lt;grin&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Why stop using what works?&nbsp; &lt;g&gt; I have two systems running OS/2 Warp 3 Connect.<BR>&gt; One is a "headless" communciation and print server on my lan (486DX33 with 16<BR>&gt; meg) and the other I'm sitting in front of right now (P5-100 with 40 meg). <BR>&gt; About the only thing I use this system for any more is email, but it's been<BR>&gt; working great since '94. &lt;g&gt; My newer, more powerful systems are running various<BR>&gt; versions of Win and Linux.&nbsp; If I don't watch out, I'll soon have more computers<BR>&gt; than I have rooms. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>I already do, if you count the pile of 486s I've got cluttering up the place.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 01:52:33 -0500<BR>From: Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Temp Conversion<BR><BR>On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:52:51 -0500 (EST), "Thomas Vickers"<BR>&lt;tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin to Farenhite?<BR><BR>It's Fahrenheit, and to convert you subtract 273.15 then convert Celsius to<BR>Fahrenheit.&nbsp; IIRC, C-to-F is multiply by 1.8 and then add 32.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:57:53 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: "Refined" fuel<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Dear TMLers,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Back in the mists of time (or about five-six years ago), there was an <BR>&gt; explanation offered by a list-member of what was meant by "refined" fuel.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; IIRC, there was a sort of liquid hydrogen - or perhaps a process that could <BR>&gt; be applied to it - that caused the "fuel" to be particularly pure or <BR>&gt; uniform in character.&nbsp; I can't find the post in my somewhat-fragmented <BR>&gt; archives, but I just *bet* somebody here would recall what I am talking <BR>&gt; about.&nbsp; It was an application of a RL chemistry/physics "Obscure Fact" <BR>&gt; (maybe a particular *sort* of hydrogen?).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Does anybody remember this explanation?&nbsp; Much appreciation for any response.<BR><BR>Well, to start with, there's the isotpoic composition of the fuel.<BR>"Normal" hydrogen (sometimes referred to as "protium") has a single<BR>proton as the nucleus. Deuterium has a proton and a neutron. It fuses<BR>*much* more easily. And tritium has a proton and two neutrons, it fuses<BR>still easier yet. But it's rare and unstable.<BR><BR>Hydorgen molecules consist of two hydrogen atoms. There are two forms<BR>the molecules can have. One has the spin axes of the atoms pointing in<BR>the same direction the other has them pointing in opposite directions. <BR><BR>One of these forms (I forget which) has more energy than the other.<BR>Which means that every so often, thru random chance, it'll change into<BR>the lower energy form and give of a little heat in the process. This is<BR>actually enough to *boil* liquid hydrogen.<BR><BR>Unless you use special catalysts, it takes a long time and a lot of<BR>cooling to get LH2 to all be the low energy form of the molecule.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:10:26 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Indefinite Life Span<BR><BR>Terry Carlino wrote :-<BR>&gt; I have to wonder if life expectancy in the U.S. was broken down by<BR>&gt; socio-economic groups whether the life expectancy for certain groups in<BR>the U.S.<BR>&gt; wouldn't be reflective of rates in other countries. More plainly, separate<BR>out<BR>&gt; the lower income socio-economic groups who have little access to health<BR>care.<BR><BR>The average life expectancy for men and women in the U.S. is very close to<BR>the OECD average.<BR><BR>Death rates are roughly 1.7X higher in the lowest socio-economic groups&nbsp; ;<BR>this is fairly consistent across First World countries.<BR><BR>Note that this does not consider indigenous groups (regrettably today's<BR>indigenous Australians have life expectancies comparable to wealthy<BR>Europeans ca. 1900).<BR><BR>&gt; Would the average life expectancy rise dramatically?<BR>No. There's a 'wall' on the right hand side of the graph that outweighs the<BR>'drag' caused by other people dying 'early'.<BR><BR>It would now take a significant innovation (e.g. elimination of<BR>cardiovascular disease or all malignancies) to cause a 'dramatic' rise in<BR>life expectancy.<BR><BR>The ~20 year increase in life expectancy seen over the period 1900-1990 in<BR>the developed world is largely due to improvements in diet and hygiene,<BR>rather than specific medical interventions.<BR><BR>Deaths from cardiovascular and infectious diseases and accidents have<BR>fallen, while death rates from malignancies have risen. Suicide rates,<BR>especially amongst the young, have increased, but they account for only 5-6%<BR>of all deaths.<BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn wrote :-<BR>&gt; Probably not that much, actually. There was a study (I forget who did<BR>&gt; iot, sorry) that showed that the life expectancy in a country was<BR>&gt; fairly closely correlated with the differentail in wealth between<BR>&gt; poor and wealthy, and that this affected even the wealthy. It didn't,<BR>&gt; as far as I can remember look at why.<BR>These sort of studies are done at regular intervals by agencies like the UN<BR>Development Program. Generally, poorer countries have greater inequalities<BR>in income (the usual measure is comparing the top and bottom 20% of the<BR>population). Life expectancy is lower in these countries for all the usual<BR>reasons.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:50:21 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; OS/2 Warp 4&nbsp;&nbsp; AMD K6-2-500&nbsp; &nbsp; 320&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "main box"<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Gee, someones still using OS/2 ?<BR>&gt; &gt; Even IBM aren't doing that anymore ! &lt;grin&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Want to bet? They've *guaranteed* support for 5 more years. Which is<BR>&gt; more than Microsoft will do with Windows.<BR><BR>They're _supporting_ it, they're not _using_ it.<BR><BR>Well, I suppose someone somewhere in IBM is still using it, but it's no<BR>longer the standard COE rollout, not since about 1997-98.<BR><BR>And I thought they said only another five years two or three years ago ?<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; But then I get an new one every year or two,<BR>&gt; &gt; and I never get rid of the old ones.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I wasn't able to afford new ones for quite a few years.<BR><BR>Neither was I, but I never let not being able to afford something stop me.<BR>&lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>I bought my first new PC wth a student loan when I was on a student<BR>allowance, I considered it an investement in my future, and it certainly<BR>paid off !<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; I wonder if I can link my BBC B into the network ?<BR>&gt; &gt; Was a pretty hot machine back in the eighties,<BR>&gt; &gt; Rockwell 65C02 clocked up to 6Mhz or thereabouts<BR>&gt; &gt; with 256K of RAM and 12 sideways ROM slots.<BR>&gt; &gt; Anyone know if you can modify eco-net to work<BR>&gt; &gt; with ethernet ?&lt;grin&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I *can* hook the Apple clones and possible some of the TRS80 boxes up.<BR>&gt; And least the hardware is available. Gett the software so there's any<BR>&gt; *point* in doing so is a different matter.<BR><BR>Well, the point of hooking the BBC up would be to download all the games and<BR>software I have for it to my PC so I can use it on a BBC emulator, and<BR>perhaps recoveer a few really old files, like my Traveller character<BR>generator written in BBC Basic, ported by hand from the listing of the<BR>original TRS80 Basic...<BR><BR>Then again, I dread to think how bad the code I wrote back then was.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 05:34:51 -0500<BR>From: Christopher Thrash &lt;thrash@io.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:44:07 +1000<BR>&gt;From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: world series<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Out of idle curiousity:&nbsp; is soccer more popular in areas with large Latino<BR>&gt;populations?<BR><BR>Dragging this back to Traveller:<BR><BR>I have seen soccer played in the poorest countries in Africa and the<BR>Western Hemisphere (Somalia and Haiti, respectively). The big advantage of<BR>soccer over just about every other ball sport is that it requires only two<BR>pieces of equipment: a more-or-less round ball, and a large flat field.<BR>(Rugby requires relatively sophisticated medical treatment facilities, and<BR>so doesn't qualify.) I infer that this simplicity is resposible for<BR>soccer's worldwide popularity. If so, it is also a good argument for<BR>soccer's continued popularity into the far future.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:10:14 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR><BR>On 24 Feb 2001, at 5:34, Christopher Thrash wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Dragging this back to Traveller:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I have seen soccer played in the poorest countries in Africa and the<BR>&gt; Western Hemisphere (Somalia and Haiti, respectively). The big advantage of<BR>&gt; soccer over just about every other ball sport is that it requires only two<BR>&gt; pieces of equipment: a more-or-less round ball, and a large flat field.<BR>&gt; (Rugby requires relatively sophisticated medical treatment facilities, and<BR>&gt; so doesn't qualify.) <BR><BR>Ahem. At the high school I went to the after-school soccer teams had about as <BR>many injuries as the rigby teams. The difference was that the rugby players got <BR>their wrists and shoulders bent, while the soccer players had their knees and <BR>ankles destroyed. Both suffered battered ears and bruised eyes.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:10:14 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Indefinite Life Span<BR><BR>On 24 Feb 2001, at 21:10, Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR><BR>I wrote :-<BR>&gt; &gt; Probably not that much, actually. There was a study (I forget who did<BR>&gt; &gt; iot, sorry) that showed that the life expectancy in a country was<BR>&gt; &gt; fairly closely correlated with the differentail in wealth between<BR>&gt; &gt; poor and wealthy, and that this affected even the wealthy. It didn't,<BR>&gt; &gt; as far as I can remember look at why.<BR>&gt; These sort of studies are done at regular intervals by agencies like the UN<BR>&gt; Development Program. Generally, poorer countries have greater inequalities in<BR>&gt; income (the usual measure is comparing the top and bottom 20% of the<BR>&gt; population). Life expectancy is lower in these countries for all the usual<BR>&gt; reasons.<BR><BR>I'm fairly sure I saw a study of developed nations that showed that for a given <BR>average income the country with the greatest wealth difference had the lowest <BR>life expectancy, even in the wealthy component of its population. However it <BR>occurs to me that if they used countries with very different violent crime <BR>rates this could make the difference.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:31:37 -0500<BR>From: "Chris Seamans" &lt;semo@pil.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: All your base are belong to us!<BR><BR>In AD 2101, Leslie Bates was writing:<BR><BR>&gt;Something my landlord forwarded to me.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;An adventure in bad translation.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; I don't think I've laughed that hard in months. Although this was certainly<BR>off-topic, it had me crying with laughter... and that's gotta be worth<BR>something.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Yours in 'Great Justice',<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Chris Seamans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:25:28 +0000<BR>From: Simon Brodie &lt;mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT<BR><BR>Volker wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Am Saturday, February 24, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; In-Reply-To: &lt;113344397.20010223193111@greimann.de&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Greetings dear hearts.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; It sounds quite reasonable to me - any damage that is going to get through<BR>&gt; &gt; a suit of really solid armour isn't going to do much good to the human<BR>&gt; &gt; being (or member of other species, as appropriate)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Still, i dont really like killing my party, but you can only "adjust"<BR>&gt; the die rolls ever so often...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I think Ill try this blowthrough rule David suggested...<BR><BR>Look, weapons are designed to kill people (generally speaking).&nbsp; If they don't<BR>do it well then they wont make it to the production stage.&nbsp; If your guys are<BR>going to wander around in BD and get shot at with FGPM/PGMP (which were designed<BR>at a TL where they are required to penetrate BD) then they are going to die.<BR><BR>End of story.<BR>No more fudging.<BR>No lucky breaks.<BR><BR>You will always (and i generalize badly here - please forgive me) find that the<BR>people who play CoC make some of the best players in games with lethal combat as<BR>they know to well that combat is such a minor tool of the adventurer and one<BR>which should very rarely (unless the scenario requires it) be used unless the<BR>party want to risk some serious dirt-nap time.<BR><BR>:-)<BR><BR>Si<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:31:11 +0000<BR>From: Simon Brodie &lt;mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: D6 traveller<BR><BR>Is there anyone out there who plays (or has access to info on) d6 traveller.&nbsp; I<BR>am seriously considering adopting this game system as i think it has just the<BR>playabilitiy that i want my Traveller universe games to possess.<BR><BR>Any advice, links, software etc gladly accepted.<BR><BR>:-)<BR><BR>Si<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:53:01 +0000<BR>From: Simon Brodie &lt;mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>&gt; On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Don't expect North America to take football seriously until you let a<BR>&gt; &gt; team WIN the world championship game.<BR><BR>I presume that by using the term 'world' you are referring to the american policy<BR>of having a world series that excludes the rest of the world?<BR><BR>;-)<BR><BR>Si<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:07:00 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>From: Simon Brodie &lt;mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "I presume that by using the term 'world' you are referring to the <BR>american policy of having a world series that excludes the rest of the <BR>world?"<BR><BR>Mr. Brodie,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Actually, I consider the World Cup to be the only true world <BR>championship.&nbsp; The Series was tagged with the "world" title as a bit of <BR>marketing hyperbole when it is invented early in the last century.&nbsp; One <BR>league thought the name was so silly that they refused to play in it for <BR>several years.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Although many football fans from many different parts of the globe have <BR>taken umbrage with my post about the world's most popular game, only one has <BR>addressed the major point of that post; that FIFA's mechanism for resolving <BR>tie games is completely wrongheaded and wouldn't be fit for a kindergarden <BR>game, let alone one played by adults.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The idea that the only true world championship can, and is, decided not <BR>by the actual game play of the teams, but through a kicking contest is <BR>laughable.&nbsp; After working 3(?) or 4(?) years to get to that point and <BR>playing your heart out for 90 minutes, the fact that it is decided by <BR>something so infantile must be maddening to both players and fans.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I also stand by my assertion that, if I had been exposed to the game as <BR>a child, I would be as big a fan of it as anyone else.<BR><BR><BR>OBTrav:&nbsp; What sort of cultural "faux pas" between regions in the Imperium <BR>would label the offender a "philistine" and "cretin", but not (hopefully) <BR>put him any physical danger?&nbsp; Using the wrong fork for the greebel course?&nbsp; <BR>White codpiece after Labor Day?&nbsp; Toe nail clippings not burnt immediately to <BR>prevent illegal cloning?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>P.S.&nbsp; One poster did point out the overtime contests in American football <BR>usually end with the winner of the coin toss winning.&nbsp; This is true to an <BR>extent, that team usually has to first chance to kick a field goal.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; However, both teams actually play the game in overtime, with the team <BR>on offense performing the same tasks they did during the previous 60 minutes <BR>to get the ball within the field goal range of their kicker.&nbsp; The ball <BR>simply isn't teed up at the 25 yard line automatically and the team with the <BR>best out of ten shots wins.&nbsp; They play the game to get it there.&nbsp; Play The <BR>Game.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 06:09:43 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Broadsword Inquiry<BR><BR>I am currently upgrading the old Adventure 8:&nbsp; Broadsword for use with<BR>the TNE rules.<BR><BR>My question:&nbsp; Are there any extant maps of Garda-Vilis?&nbsp; I'd hate to<BR>re-invent the wheel if I don't need to.<BR><BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:58:09 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:25:40 -0000 grote1731@hotmail.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)<BR>wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; The current attempt at fielding a pro league is slowly dying and<BR>&gt;hispanic faces are few among the fans.&nbsp; Perhaps the level of play isn't good<BR>&gt;enough to draw people who've seen the game played the real way.<BR><BR>Which is odd, considering the (by now) thousands of kids who have played<BR>soccer in the AYSO (American Youth Soccer Organization) and school teams, and<BR>given the strong showings of both the American mens and especially women's<BR>national teams (World Cup Champ is kinda hard to beat! So was China for that<BR>matter, but they did it ;-)<BR><BR>So insteade we get drivel like the XFL...the dregs of passed-over NFL players<BR>playing some weird mutant version of WWF-Football (_US_ Style with the pointy<BR>ball, quarterbacks and cheerleaders).<BR><BR>Go figure...<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:02:07 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:07:00 -0000 grote1731@hotmail.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)<BR>wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; However, both teams actually play the game in overtime, with the team<BR>&gt;on offense performing the same tasks they did during the previous 60 minutes<BR>&gt;to get the ball within the field goal range of their kicker.&nbsp; The ball<BR>&gt;simply isn't teed up at the 25 yard line automatically and the team with the<BR>&gt;best out of ten shots wins.&nbsp; They play the game to get it there.&nbsp; Play The<BR>&gt;Game.<BR><BR>And of course, gragging it back Off-Topic; this is exactly how they break ties<BR>in baseball...by playing until there isn't one.<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:47:52 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR><BR>Christopher Thrash wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:44:07 +1000<BR>&gt; &gt;From: "Alan Bradley" &lt;alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Subject: Re: world series<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Out of idle curiousity:&nbsp; is soccer more popular in areas with large Latino<BR>&gt; &gt;populations?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Dragging this back to Traveller:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I have seen soccer played in the poorest countries in Africa and the<BR>&gt; Western Hemisphere (Somalia and Haiti, respectively). The big advantage of<BR>&gt; soccer over just about every other ball sport is that it requires only two<BR>&gt; pieces of equipment: a more-or-less round ball, and a large flat field.<BR>&gt; (Rugby requires relatively sophisticated medical treatment facilities, and<BR>&gt; so doesn't qualify.)<BR><BR>Someone isn't watching enough Premier League soccer.<BR><BR>Rugby is a bit dangerous to play before your teens because<BR>it is designed as a contact sport, the danger being the risk<BR>of an injury that will leave long-term effects (however, it isn't<BR>neary as dangerous at 5 year olds playing american football).<BR>Soccer isn't&nbsp; designed that way, though there is often a lot of<BR>bloody and dangerous contact.<BR><BR>Where rugby breaks with soccer is that it's much more complicated.<BR>Soccer is easy to explain:&nbsp; run, kick the ball in the goal, don't use<BR>your hands.&nbsp; Can't do that with rugby, way to many if-thens.<BR><BR>&gt; I infer that this simplicity is resposible for<BR>&gt; soccer's worldwide popularity. If so, it is also a good argument for<BR>&gt; soccer's continued popularity into the far future.<BR><BR>I agree.&nbsp; I think the same is true of golf (hit the ball into a hole).<BR><BR>But can you imagine what interstellar baseball would be like,<BR>with each world having different gravities and atmospheres?<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:04:18 -0600<BR>From: Victor Jason Raymond &lt;vraymond@iastate.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: "Refined" fuel<BR><BR>&lt;nods&gt;&nbsp; I had thought about that, but it seemed like there was something <BR>more specific than that.&nbsp; Then again, I might be mis-remembering.&nbsp; Though <BR>there was SOMEthing....<BR><BR>(I'll go back and dig)<BR><BR>Victor<BR><BR>At 11:57 PM 2/23/01 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;In mail you write:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Dear TMLers,<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Back in the mists of time (or about five-six years ago), there was an<BR>&gt; &gt; explanation offered by a list-member of what was meant by "refined" fuel.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; IIRC, there was a sort of liquid hydrogen - or perhaps a process that <BR>&gt; could<BR>&gt; &gt; be applied to it - that caused the "fuel" to be particularly pure or<BR>&gt; &gt; uniform in character.&nbsp; I can't find the post in my somewhat-fragmented<BR>&gt; &gt; archives, but I just *bet* somebody here would recall what I am talking<BR>&gt; &gt; about.&nbsp; It was an application of a RL chemistry/physics "Obscure Fact"<BR>&gt; &gt; (maybe a particular *sort* of hydrogen?).<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Does anybody remember this explanation?&nbsp; Much appreciation for any <BR>&gt; response.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Well, to start with, there's the isotpoic composition of the fuel.<BR>&gt;"Normal" hydrogen (sometimes referred to as "protium") has a single<BR>&gt;proton as the nucleus. Deuterium has a proton and a neutron. It fuses<BR>&gt;*much* more easily. And tritium has a proton and two neutrons, it fuses<BR>&gt;still easier yet. But it's rare and unstable.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Hydorgen molecules consist of two hydrogen atoms. There are two forms<BR>&gt;the molecules can have. One has the spin axes of the atoms pointing in<BR>&gt;the same direction the other has them pointing in opposite directions.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;One of these forms (I forget which) has more energy than the other.<BR>&gt;Which means that every so often, thru random chance, it'll change into<BR>&gt;the lower energy form and give of a little heat in the process. This is<BR>&gt;actually enough to *boil* liquid hydrogen.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Unless you use special catalysts, it takes a long time and a lot of<BR>&gt;cooling to get LH2 to all be the low energy form of the molecule.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;--<BR>&gt;Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>&gt;&nbsp; shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>&gt;leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>Victor J. Raymond<BR>Department of Sociology, ISU<BR>vraymond@iastate.edu<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:24:20 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Adventure 8<BR><BR>I have dug out my copy of Adventure 8 to work up the basis for a<BR>TNE-based military campaign set in the Spinward Marches in CT times. <BR>When I first played it as a teenager, I thought this was the coolest<BR>adventure going.&nbsp; Now that I'm 35, I can see this adventure had a lot<BR>of holes in it that need fixing.<BR><BR>Thoughts on Adventure 8:&nbsp; Broadsword<BR><BR>1)&nbsp; Thirty-one troops, no matter how well armed and armored, aren't<BR>going to make a drop of difference in a planet-wide revolution,<BR>especially one with high-tech off-world support.<BR><BR>2)&nbsp; The wheeled ATV is as useless as a military vehicle as mammary<BR>glands on a porcine of the male gender.<BR><BR>3)&nbsp; Scenario II:&nbsp; The Ambush, is rather forced.&nbsp; The first time we<BR>gamed this (sometime in the 80s), the players simply loaded their<BR>prisoners and themselves in one of the cutters and flew back to base.<BR><BR>I am reworking the adventure for use with the TNE rules and I've come<BR>up with a few fixes.<BR><BR>1)&nbsp; The mercenary unit needs to be bumped up to at least a battalion in<BR>size, but would be better using a regiment.&nbsp; You'd never catch Hammer's<BR>Slammers or Falkenberg's Legion trying to put down a rebellion with a<BR>single platoon.&nbsp; Keep the mercenary cruiser as a unit asset, with most<BR>of the troops and their equipment coming in via commercial shipping. <BR>The cruiser will initially be intended as an ortillery platform, but<BR>the arrival of the Zhodani strike cruiser will of course put paid to<BR>that plan.<BR><BR>2)&nbsp; Ditch the ATVs.&nbsp; They are completely useless.&nbsp; Give the unit at<BR>least a company of armor and a company or two of G-carriers.&nbsp; They'll<BR>still be susceptible to the Gram mechanized battalion and the TFL's<BR>anti-armor teams, but at least they'll have a fighting chance.<BR><BR>3)&nbsp; Why the Zhodani strike cruiser simply doesn't drop a missile on the<BR>Broadsword as it sits on the ground at the starport is beyond me.&nbsp; The<BR>best plan I see for the Broadsword is to high-tail it off planet or<BR>park in some convenient body of water to hide it from the strike<BR>cruiser.<BR><BR>4)&nbsp; There should be enough gravitic traffic on planet to mask the<BR>movements of the ship's cutters.&nbsp; Use them for fire support and troop<BR>transport.<BR><BR>5)&nbsp; Odds are, the TFL are not sitting on their hands while the<BR>mercenaries deploy.&nbsp; Have them stage terrorist (i.e., car bomb) attacks<BR>against the mercenaries early on.&nbsp; As a goodly portion of the planet is<BR>in cahoots with the TFL, odds are they'll know the mercs are coming and<BR>will make plans to deal with them.<BR><BR>6)&nbsp; Because a lot of the locals are TFL sympathizers, the locations of<BR>the deep meson gun sensor sites should be known to the TFL.&nbsp; Have the<BR>mercs rush around to aid the beleaguered defenders of the sensor sites<BR>from TFL raids.&nbsp; This will keep quite a bit of the unit's assets tied<BR>down as a reaction force and incapable of mounting an offensive against<BR>the guerrillas.&nbsp; Say bye-bye to the bonus.&nbsp; Of course, using their<BR>contacts with the Zhodani, the TFL might simply get the cruiser to drop<BR>a few missiles on each site.<BR><BR>7)&nbsp; Make more use of the Sword Worlders.&nbsp; Have the local TFL guerrilla<BR>leader call in for armored support should the mercs be getting the<BR>upper hand in an action.<BR><BR>8)&nbsp; Make more use of the Zhodani commandos and Marines.&nbsp; This is<BR>especially good after the Zhodani declare war.&nbsp; The adventure starts on<BR>096-1107 and the Zhodani declare war on 187-1107 - 91 days later.&nbsp;&nbsp; At<BR>that time, reinforce the Zhodani cruiser with a couple of destroyer<BR>escorts.<BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3742<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Saturday, February 24 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3743<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: world series<BR>Adventure *7* Broadsword<BR>Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR>Re: D6 traveller<BR>Re: D6 traveller<BR>Re: D6 traveller<BR>RE: Adventure 8<BR>Re: Darrian names?<BR>RE: Adventure 8<BR>RE: Adventure 8<BR>Re: the religion flamewar<BR>Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR>RE: What could go wrong?<BR>RE: Adventure 8<BR>RE: "Refined" fuel<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:46:27<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>At 08:44 AM 2/24/2001 +1000, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Out of idle curiousity:&nbsp; is soccer more popular in areas with large Latino<BR>&gt;populations?<BR><BR>Not really.&nbsp; The San Jose Earthquakes play in a heavily Latino area, and<BR>have a re hard time filling seats.<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:42:48 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Adventure *7* Broadsword<BR><BR>AAArrrrgh!&nbsp; Chalk it up to fat fingers and too little coffee.<BR><BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:47:15<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR><BR>At 11:47 AM 2/24/2001 -0600, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;But can you imagine what interstellar baseball would be like,<BR>&gt;with each world having different gravities and atmospheres?<BR><BR>Considering the oddities you find in current major league parks..&nbsp; Enron<BR>Filed has a small hill with a flag pole on it in the field of play!&nbsp; One of<BR>Candlestick's oddities was a *huge* playable foul area.. balls that would<BR>have been in the seats in any other park were easy outs at the 'Stick.<BR>Fenway has the Green Monster.&nbsp; Pac Bell has a right field wall that causes<BR>some insane bounces.<BR><BR>And of course, there's Coors Field in Denver.. the park where pitchers can<BR>hit homeruns.<BR><BR>I'd think that there would be a standard "minimum fence" rule for ball<BR>parks.&nbsp; Adjust for local gravity and atmospheric pressure, and the fences<BR>could be 800 feet away!&nbsp; Records would also be adjusted for local conditions.<BR><BR>*grin*&nbsp; I'm just picturing a pop-up on a world with .4g<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"<BR>- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:33:01 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: D6 traveller<BR><BR>http://members.nbci.com/lamorak/d6travel.htm<BR><BR>On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:31:11 +0000 Simon Brodie<BR>&lt;mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk&gt; writes:<BR>&gt; Is there anyone out there who plays (or has access to info on) d6 <BR>&gt; traveller.&nbsp; I<BR>&gt; am seriously considering adopting this game system as i think it has <BR>&gt; just the<BR>&gt; playabilitiy that i want my Traveller universe games to possess.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Any advice, links, software etc gladly accepted.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; :-)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Si<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:28:16 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: D6 traveller<BR><BR>On 02/24/01 at 02:33 PM,&nbsp; knightsky@juno.com said:<BR><BR>&gt;http://members.nbci.com/lamorak/d6travel.htm<BR><BR>Somebody beat me to it. &lt;g&gt; Good information on this site!<BR><BR>I think I like my way of combining Stat+Skill better than the<BR>traditional one, but this is probably easier.&nbsp; The weapons should<BR>have Close, Short, Medium and Long ranges listed.&nbsp; The<BR>wounding/damage system should be explained better, I've never really<BR>been comfortable with the "5 wound system."&nbsp; Hum, I don't see why<BR>you couldn't continue to use the CT "reduce STR/END/DEX" system, but<BR>if you did you'd have to reduce the weapon damages down to CT<BR>levels.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Actually, that would work well, I think...for example. if a small<BR>calibre pistol was rated 2d+2 and you rolled 5 and 4.&nbsp; Then on a<BR>first hit you'd apply all 11 points to one of STR/END/DEX, or on<BR>second+ hits you'd apply 5 to one, 4 to another, and 2 to a third.<BR>This would give you the ability to more finely rate weapons, for<BR>example...<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Effective Ranges<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Damage&nbsp; &nbsp; Close&nbsp;&nbsp; Short&nbsp;&nbsp; Medium&nbsp; Long<BR>.22 pistol&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2d+1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 40<BR>.32 pistol&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2d+2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 16<BR>.44 revolver&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3d&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 40&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 80<BR>10mm Body pistol&nbsp; 3d&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 24&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>9mm autopistol&nbsp; &nbsp; 3d+1&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 30&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 90&nbsp; &nbsp; 270<BR>.45 autopistol&nbsp; &nbsp; 3d+2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 24&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 72&nbsp; &nbsp; 206<BR>.44 magnum&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4d&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 54&nbsp; &nbsp; 162<BR><BR>(I'm guessing at ranges, but something like this allows trade offs<BR>&nbsp; between higher stopping power and longer ranges...and I like that)<BR><BR>Eris<BR><BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:05:01 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: D6 traveller<BR><BR>On 02/24/01 at 01:31 PM,&nbsp; Simon Brodie &lt;mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;Is there anyone out there who plays (or has access to info on) d6<BR>&gt;traveller.&nbsp; I am seriously considering adopting this game system as<BR>&gt;i think it has just the playabilitiy that i want my Traveller<BR>&gt;universe games to possess.<BR><BR>I'm sure others have more knowledge/experience with d6 than I, but<BR>I'll take a shot at it...<BR><BR>Characters<BR><BR>I'd create the characters using CT/MT/T4 or TNE, then convert their<BR>Characteristics and Skills to a d6 format.<BR><BR>d6 Stat = Characteristic/3, where the quotent is the number of dice<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; and the remainder is the number of pips.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>d6 Skill = Traveller Skill level is the number of dice<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>d6 Target Number = an appropriate Stat + an appropriate Skill<BR><BR>Example (I just rolled:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Sam Sample UPP:&nbsp; 779985-8 Skills:&nbsp; Brawling-1, Pistol-1,<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Engineering-2, Mechanic-1 Carousing-2, Grav Vehicle-1,<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Conversion<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; STR 7 = 2d+1&nbsp; &nbsp; Brawling&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1d<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; END 7 = 2d+1&nbsp; &nbsp; Pistol&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1d<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; DEX 9 = 3d&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Engineering&nbsp; 2d<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; INT 9 = 3d&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mechanic&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1d<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; EDU 8 = 2d+2&nbsp; &nbsp; Carousing&nbsp; &nbsp; 2d<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; SOC 5 = 1d+2&nbsp; &nbsp; Grav Vehicle 1d<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; CHA 8 = 2d+2<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Task Levels<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Routine&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1 to 5<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Average&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6 to 10<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Difficult&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11 to 15<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Formidable&nbsp; &nbsp; 16 to 20<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Staggering&nbsp; &nbsp; 21 to 25<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hopeless&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 26 to 30<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Impossible&nbsp; &nbsp; 31 to 35<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Example Tasks<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Repair Jump Drive <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Engineering+EDU&nbsp; &gt; Difficult (12)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2d + 2d+2 = 4d+2<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Shoot Pirate with Pistol at Medium range<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Pistol+DEX+Attack DM's&nbsp; &gt; 10+Defense DM's<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Some Attack DM's<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Range: Close +1d; Short +0; Medium -1d; Long -2d<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Called Shot -2d<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Some Defense DM's<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Cover: Partial -1d; Full -2d; Darkness -2d<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1d + 3d -1d = 3d<BR><BR>That should get you started. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Eris&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:39:09 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Adventure 8<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Gerry Harris<BR>&gt; Sent: Sunday, 25 February 2001 07:24<BR>&gt; To: TML<BR>&gt; Subject: Adventure 8<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I have dug out my copy of Adventure 8 to work up the basis for a<BR>&gt; TNE-based military campaign set in the Spinward Marches in CT times.<BR>&gt; When I first played it as a teenager, I thought this was the coolest<BR>&gt; adventure going.&nbsp; Now that I'm 35, I can see this adventure had a lot<BR>&gt; of holes in it that need fixing.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Thoughts on Adventure 8:&nbsp; Broadsword<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 1)&nbsp; Thirty-one troops, no matter how well armed and armored, aren't<BR>&gt; going to make a drop of difference in a planet-wide revolution,<BR>&gt; especially one with high-tech off-world support.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 2)&nbsp; The wheeled ATV is as useless as a military vehicle as mammary<BR>&gt; glands on a porcine of the male gender.<BR><BR>I suggest you read up on what the LRDG did in the Western desert before<BR>dismissing wheeled ATVs.<BR><BR>Like any vehicle,if used in the wrong way , against the wrong weapons, and<BR>in the wrong place, they may be useless. But used corectly, in the right<BR>place and way, _any_ form of transport can be militarily effective. Even<BR>donkeys.<BR><BR>&gt; 3)&nbsp; Scenario II:&nbsp; The Ambush, is rather forced.&nbsp; The first time we<BR>&gt; gamed this (sometime in the 80s), the players simply loaded their<BR>&gt; prisoners and themselves in one of the cutters and flew back to base.<BR><BR>Er, I thought there was an explicit reason why they couldn;t do this in the<BR>scenario ?<BR>I'd have to dig it ourt and check.<BR><BR>&gt; I am reworking the adventure for use with the TNE rules and I've come<BR>&gt; up with a few fixes.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 1)&nbsp; The mercenary unit needs to be bumped up to at least a battalion in<BR>&gt; size, but would be better using a regiment.&nbsp; You'd never catch Hammer's<BR>&gt; Slammers or Falkenberg's Legion trying to put down a rebellion with a<BR>&gt; single platoon.&nbsp; Keep the mercenary cruiser as a unit asset, with most<BR>&gt; of the troops and their equipment coming in via commercial shipping.<BR>&gt; The cruiser will initially be intended as an ortillery platform, but<BR>&gt; the arrival of the Zhodani strike cruiser will of course put paid to<BR>&gt; that plan.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 2)&nbsp; Ditch the ATVs.&nbsp; They are completely useless.&nbsp; Give the unit at<BR>&gt; least a company of armor and a company or two of G-carriers.&nbsp; They'll<BR>&gt; still be susceptible to the Gram mechanized battalion and the TFL's<BR>&gt; anti-armor teams, but at least they'll have a fighting chance.<BR><BR>Ok, I think the problem with all this is that I got the impression the<BR>mercenaries aren't supposed to win.<BR><BR>I got from this mission is that the Mercenaries were supposed to take to the<BR>hills and out of pure survival act as an Imperial guerilla group harassing<BR>the Zhodani and Sword Worlds presence on the planet, probably not getting<BR>out until after the war, or until they get a chance to get the hell out of<BR>there.<BR><BR>In this environment the ATV's are useful for mobility.<BR><BR>&gt; 3)&nbsp; Why the Zhodani strike cruiser simply doesn't drop a missile on the<BR>&gt; Broadsword as it sits on the ground at the starport is beyond me.&nbsp; The<BR>&gt; best plan I see for the Broadsword is to high-tail it off planet or<BR>&gt; park in some convenient body of water to hide it from the strike<BR>&gt; cruiser.<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; 6)&nbsp; Because a lot of the locals are TFL sympathizers, the locations of<BR>&gt; the deep meson gun sensor sites should be known to the TFL.&nbsp; Have the<BR>&gt; mercs rush around to aid the beleaguered defenders of the sensor sites<BR>&gt; from TFL raids.&nbsp; This will keep quite a bit of the unit's assets tied<BR>&gt; down as a reaction force and incapable of mounting an offensive against<BR>&gt; the guerrillas.&nbsp; Say bye-bye to the bonus.&nbsp; Of course, using their<BR>&gt; contacts with the Zhodani, the TFL might simply get the cruiser to drop<BR>&gt; a few missiles on each site.<BR><BR>Problem with this is that unless the deep mesons are inoperative the strike<BR>cruiser is dead meat if it tries this. The point of deep mesons is that it<BR>requies a sustained, long term,&nbsp; bombardment for orbital weaponry to take<BR>them out, unless the attackers have knowledge of their exact _depth_ as well<BR>as position and can use mesons against them. Any single strike cruiser would<BR>have to be _extremely_ lucky to survive sitting in range of several deep<BR>meson sites for the length of time required to reduce their cover.<BR><BR>And while most locals are TFL sympathizers, it's still possible to hide a<BR>deep meson on a planet. Consider if you were building one on earth, there<BR>are several parts of the planet where you could easily build one withut any<BR>locals&nbsp; finding out, because there are no locals. or the few that are there<BR>could be eliminated or imprisoned with little trouble.<BR><BR>Not to mention that if the mesons _are_ in a populated area the locals would<BR>be bit upset at the damage done to their planet in taking them out, so if<BR>the Zhodani want to retain local supoprt, they'd have to use troops to storm<BR>the site or teleporting commandos (which would require either fanatic<BR>comandos willing to risk appearing in rock, or something in the site to act<BR>as a psionic location device.....<BR><BR>This, BTW, is my justification for the Zhodani strike Cruiser not attacking<BR>the Broadsword on planet, it doesn't know for sure where the deep mesons<BR>are, and the captain is too worried about losing his ship to them to risk it<BR>just to take out a Broadsword. Being there is enough to deny the enemy the<BR>use of their ortillery. Why risk more ?<BR><BR>And to begin with they aren't at war, and it would tehnically be an act of<BR>war to attack the mercenaries.<BR><BR>Other than that, I like the ideas.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:54:56 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: Darrian names?<BR><BR>On 02/18/01 at 11:04 PM,&nbsp; Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;I have a spreadsheet that generates names for 13 different Trav<BR>&gt;languages&nbsp; (Ael Yael, Aslan, Darrian, Dynchia, Gvegh, Happirhvani,<BR>&gt;Hkar, K'kree,&nbsp; Norsk, Oynprith, Vilani, Vuakedh and Zhodani).&nbsp; I<BR>&gt;can send it to you if you&nbsp; are interested.<BR><BR>&gt;Jimmy Simpson<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>That's something that should be hosted on a webpage somewhere. If one of the big Traveller sites, like Downport, isn't interested, Jimmy,&nbsp; send it to me, I'll host it on my little old webpage.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:50:16 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Adventure 8<BR><BR>On 25 Feb 2001, at 10:39, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; 2)&nbsp; The wheeled ATV is as useless as a military vehicle as mammary<BR>&gt; &gt; glands on a porcine of the male gender.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I suggest you read up on what the LRDG did in the Western desert before<BR>&gt; dismissing wheeled ATVs.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Like any vehicle,if used in the wrong way , against the wrong weapons, and<BR>&gt; in the wrong place, they may be useless. But used corectly, in the right<BR>&gt; place and way, _any_ form of transport can be militarily effective. Even<BR>&gt; donkeys.<BR><BR>OTOH we're talking about a TL10 world, so while they'd have some uses a wheeled <BR>ATV would be very low down on my shopping list.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:23:41 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Adventure 8<BR><BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "2)&nbsp; The wheeled ATV is as useless as a military vehicle as mammary<BR>glands on a porcine of the male gender."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "I suggest you read up on what the LRDG did in the Western desert <BR>before dismissing wheeled ATVs."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "OTOH we're talking about a TL10 world, so while they'd have some uses <BR>a wheeled ATV would be very low down on my shopping list."<BR><BR><BR>Gentlemen,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Gee, it sure has been a long time since I played "Broadsword", and then <BR>only as a PC a not as a GM.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (scratches grey haired pate)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I sort of thought the point of it was to survive the war's first stages <BR>and wait for the IN to arrive.&nbsp; We ran a few of the scenarios (I have vague <BR>memories of them) but the biggest part of it was helping the loyalist <BR>Garda-Vilist troops and the Vilis garrison hold off against the TFL, Gram <BR>battalion, and Zho ship.&nbsp; Again, that might of been our GMs "tweak" of the <BR>material.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The "mexican" standoff between the Zho strike cruiser and deep meson <BR>sites/merc ship mentioned earlier keeps either side from using any space <BR>assets in any real way.&nbsp; The TFL wears down the garrison while the Gram <BR>armor is used for the "big push".&nbsp; Our GM used us like a "fire brigade", <BR>popping here and there to stiffen local defenses, disrupt staging areas, <BR>leading small counter attacks, and the like.&nbsp; The mercs are too small to do <BR>any of the real work, but they can be used as a "fulcrum" for the local <BR>loyalist "lever".<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Think of something along the lines of the Peking Legations Seige during <BR>the Boxer Rebellion.&nbsp; The mercs help the locals hold the fort unitl the <BR>"cavalry" arrives.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; All of this is moot anyway.&nbsp; In the TNE timeline, a faction of the TFL <BR>"wins", Garda-Vilis gains it's independence, and becomes the leading Regency <BR>world in the Vilis subsector.&nbsp; Maybe the radical TFL faction is spent after <BR>this adventure and a more peaceable, and palatable, faction gains <BR>prominence.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:33:52 -0000<BR>From: "Ben Aaronovitch" &lt;bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: the religion flamewar<BR><BR>I've always found it an irony that the UK has an established Christian Church<BR>and is yet generally considered the most secular nation in the developed world.<BR><BR>ObTrav: The superficial forms of a government or society are not always<BR>indicative of what that society is like. For example: a communist style<BR>bureacracy where so much of the economy is underground that it effectively<BR>operates as a free market economy. Theocracies that are really liberal<BR>democracies and liberal democracies that are really theocracies.<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR>PS: Considering the high regard that Americans seem to hold for their state<BR>institutions perhaps the answer would be to allow an established religon. Church<BR>attendence would probably start falling on day one.<BR><BR><BR><BR>'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Bill Rutherford &lt;worj@home.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 4:31 AM<BR>Subject: Re: the religion flamewar<BR><BR><BR>&gt; At 10:05 PM 2/7/01 -0800, Kiri wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&lt;SNIP&gt;Among the many<BR>&gt; &gt;reasons I intend to emigrate is the constant push to try and take over the<BR>&gt; &gt;US government.&nbsp; It's not high on my list of reasons, because I don't think<BR>&gt; &gt;it is likely to succeed, but it is on there.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; ??? To where?<BR>&gt; Bill Rutherford<BR>&gt; worj@home.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:17:15 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR><BR>Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; But can you imagine what interstellar baseball would be like,<BR>&gt; with each world having different gravities and atmospheres?<BR><BR>The way to play baseball or another sport on the interstellar<BR>level would be to get a surplus K'Kree ship that is just one<BR>big compartment, set up that compartment as a playing field,<BR>and jump it around between planets. The ship would maintain<BR>a constant standard gravity, pressure, etc. The visiting team <BR>would travel on the ship and the 'home' teams would play on the <BR>ship when it reached their planet.<BR><BR>A playing field 100 meters square with a 10 meter roof would be<BR>about 7,500 displacement tons. Would a sports dome with seating, <BR>concessions, dugouts, scoreboard, whatever might be 300 meters <BR>by 200 meters with a 50 meter roof be big enough for most events?<BR>That would be about 225,000 displacement tons. If your sport does<BR>not have a high flying ball you can trim the roof height down a lot<BR>and save a lot of tonnage.<BR><BR>Any gearheads feel like designing such a ship? I'd make it jump 4 <BR>so it can follow the X-boat routes if you want an Imperium wide<BR>sport but a local league where the teams follow the local main could <BR>be jump 1.<BR><BR>You could set up a whole campaign around this idea if your players<BR>were sports fans. The players familiar with Traveller could play crew,<BR>while the players who knew nothing about it could play team members.<BR>The starship is the team bus. It takes them around between planets,<BR>in jump they practice. On planet they play games, give public<BR>appearances, get in drunken riots, etc.<BR><BR>If the sport in question is popular enough you might even be able<BR>to justify the costs but it might be better to gloss over the economics <BR>involved.<BR><BR>Thoughts?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:04:36 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: RE: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>On 02/22/01 at 07:54 AM,&nbsp; Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;This should drive the party nuts trying to find the cause.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Charles H<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;P.S.&nbsp; Repair solution: repair the malfunctioning part of the different<BR>&gt;&gt;system, add more supports and tiedowns to the ventilation ducts.<BR><BR>&gt;Gee! WHY does that sound so realistic, with a detailed repair<BR>&gt;diagnosis?&nbsp; Must have driven you NUTS 'till you found it,<BR>&gt;Charles...<BR><BR>Bruce and Terry, you know I'm reading all this don't you? &lt;g&gt;&nbsp; The old _Mae Lee_ already has some quirks and after all she's been through she might have acquired a few more. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:15:56 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Adventure 8<BR><BR>&gt;I have dug out my copy of Adventure 8 to work up the basis for a<BR>&gt;TNE-based military campaign set in the Spinward Marches in CT times.<BR>&gt;When I first played it as a teenager, I thought this was the coolest<BR>&gt;adventure going.&nbsp; Now that I'm 35, I can see this adventure had a lot<BR>&gt;of holes in it that need fixing.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Thoughts on Adventure 8:&nbsp; Broadsword<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;1)&nbsp; Thirty-one troops, no matter how well armed and armored, aren't<BR>&gt;going to make a drop of difference in a planet-wide revolution,<BR>&gt;especially one with high-tech off-world support.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;2)&nbsp; The wheeled ATV is as useless as a military vehicle as mammary<BR>&gt;glands on a porcine of the male gender.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;3)&nbsp; Scenario II:&nbsp; The Ambush, is rather forced.&nbsp; The first time we<BR>&gt;gamed this (sometime in the 80s), the players simply loaded their<BR>&gt;prisoners and themselves in one of the cutters and flew back to base.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I am reworking the adventure for use with the TNE rules and I've come<BR>&gt;up with a few fixes.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;1)&nbsp; The mercenary unit needs to be bumped up to at least a battalion in<BR>&gt;size, but would be better using a regiment.&nbsp; You'd never catch Hammer's<BR>&gt;Slammers or Falkenberg's Legion trying to put down a rebellion with a<BR>&gt;single platoon.&nbsp; Keep the mercenary cruiser as a unit asset, with most<BR>&gt;of the troops and their equipment coming in via commercial shipping.<BR>&gt;The cruiser will initially be intended as an ortillery platform, but<BR>&gt;the arrival of the Zhodani strike cruiser will of course put paid to<BR>&gt;that plan.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>I agree. Make the PC's either an elite strike squad of a bigger Mercenary<BR>force or the senior officers of a regimental size unit. Play out some<BR>actions as unit actions with the PC's running the merc side and you running<BR>the other. Play out the rest with the PC's using your regular combat RPG<BR>rules. This gives a nice variance to the campaign, and in the unit actions<BR>your PC's don't have to worry about dieing unless their whole unit is wiped<BR>out.<BR><BR>&gt;2)&nbsp; Ditch the ATVs.&nbsp; They are completely useless.&nbsp; Give the unit at<BR>&gt;least a company of armor and a company or two of G-carriers.&nbsp; They'll<BR>&gt;still be susceptible to the Gram mechanized battalion and the TFL's<BR>&gt;anti-armor teams, but at least they'll have a fighting chance.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>I agree again. Wheeled vehicles have no place on any world with that high a<BR>TL. Use a speeder or engineering sled. Give the command staff enclosed<BR>air/rafts. I'd leave out the armor entirely. It gives the mercs too much of<BR>an advantage. Besides it makes more sense for the government to call in an<BR>infantry regiment to do this kind of anti-terrorist ticket.&nbsp; Their vehicles<BR>should all be support vehicles. At this TL that should mean air/rafts for<BR>light transport, sleds for heavy transport and a few armed speeders for fire<BR>support. They don't expect to meet an armored battalion.<BR><BR>&gt;3)&nbsp; Why the Zhodani strike cruiser simply doesn't drop a missile on the<BR>&gt;Broadsword as it sits on the ground at the starport is beyond me.&nbsp; The<BR>&gt;best plan I see for the Broadsword is to high-tail it off planet or<BR>&gt;park in some convenient body of water to hide it from the strike<BR>&gt;cruiser.<BR>&gt;<BR>I've always been confused by the grounding of the Broadsword. According to<BR>the ship design section the broadsword can only land on vacuum worlds (It's<BR>unstreamlined.)&nbsp; Yet when the cruiser shows up it lands (as a matter of<BR>desperation I suppose.) I think it would be better to have it run. The<BR>merc's lose it as an asset, but the PC's or GM can bring it back for<BR>desperate fire support, for a nick of time rescue, or use the fighters in<BR>that way (if you have them.)<BR><BR>&gt;4)&nbsp; There should be enough gravitic traffic on planet to mask the<BR>&gt;movements of the ship's cutters.&nbsp; Use them for fire support and troop<BR>&gt;transport.<BR>&gt;<BR>Good idea.<BR><BR>&gt;5)&nbsp; Odds are, the TFL are not sitting on their hands while the<BR>&gt;mercenaries deploy.&nbsp; Have them stage terrorist (i.e., car bomb) attacks<BR>&gt;against the mercenaries early on.&nbsp; As a goodly portion of the planet is<BR>&gt;in cahoots with the TFL, odds are they'll know the mercs are coming and<BR>&gt;will make plans to deal with them.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;6)&nbsp; Because a lot of the locals are TFL sympathizers, the locations of<BR>&gt;the deep meson gun sensor sites should be known to the TFL.&nbsp; Have the<BR>&gt;mercs rush around to aid the beleaguered defenders of the sensor sites<BR>&gt;from TFL raids.&nbsp; This will keep quite a bit of the unit's assets tied<BR>&gt;down as a reaction force and incapable of mounting an offensive against<BR>&gt;the guerrillas.&nbsp; Say bye-bye to the bonus.&nbsp; Of course, using their<BR>&gt;contacts with the Zhodani, the TFL might simply get the cruiser to drop<BR>&gt;a few missiles on each site.<BR>&gt;<BR>If the TFL knows where the deep meson sights are then the Zho's can use<BR>transport commandoes to take them out. I don't see missiles as effective,<BR>the sites will take out the cruiser before it can bomb them. The flow of<BR>action should be:<BR><BR>1) the merc's fail in their attempt to prevent the TFL with Zhodani commando<BR>support from taking out the deep meson sites.<BR>2) When the sites are neutralized the cruiser and Swordworld transports show<BR>up and the Broadsword makes a run for it. About this time the Zho's declare<BR>war on the Imperium.<BR>3) The mercs go to ground in the hills. They become the guerrillas.<BR><BR>&gt;7)&nbsp; Make more use of the Sword Worlders.&nbsp; Have the local TFL guerrilla<BR>&gt;leader call in for armored support should the mercs be getting the<BR>&gt;upper hand in an action.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;8)&nbsp; Make more use of the Zhodani commandos and Marines.&nbsp; This is<BR>&gt;especially good after the Zhodani declare war.&nbsp; The adventure starts on<BR>&gt;096-1107 and the Zhodani declare war on 187-1107 - 91 days later.&nbsp;&nbsp; At<BR>&gt;that time, reinforce the Zhodani cruiser with a couple of destroyer<BR>&gt;escorts.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=====<BR>&gt;Gerry Harris<BR>&gt;***************************************************************************<BR>*******************<BR>&gt;ther Traveller - http://www.aethertraveller.com<BR>&gt;Soldier's Companion -<BR>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>&gt;***************************************************************************<BR>*******************<BR>&gt;"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" - Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act<BR>3, Scene 1<BR>&gt;***************************************************************************<BR>*******************<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;__________________________________________________<BR>&gt;Do You Yahoo!?<BR>&gt;Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.<BR>&gt;http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:29:14 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: "Refined" fuel<BR><BR>.&lt;nods&gt;&nbsp; I had thought about that, but it seemed like there was something<BR>&gt;more specific than that.&nbsp; Then again, I might be mis-remembering.&nbsp; Though<BR>&gt;there was SOMEthing....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;(I'll go back and dig)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Victor<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;At 11:57 PM 2/23/01 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;In mail you write:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Dear TMLers,<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Back in the mists of time (or about five-six years ago), there was an<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; explanation offered by a list-member of what was meant by "refined"<BR>fuel.<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; IIRC, there was a sort of liquid hydrogen - or perhaps a process that<BR>&gt;&gt; could<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; be applied to it - that caused the "fuel" to be particularly pure or<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; uniform in character.&nbsp; I can't find the post in my somewhat-fragmented<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; archives, but I just *bet* somebody here would recall what I am talking<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; about.&nbsp; It was an application of a RL chemistry/physics "Obscure Fact"<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; (maybe a particular *sort* of hydrogen?).<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Does anybody remember this explanation?&nbsp; Much appreciation for any<BR>&gt;&gt; response.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Well, to start with, there's the isotpoic composition of the fuel.<BR>&gt;&gt;"Normal" hydrogen (sometimes referred to as "protium") has a single<BR>&gt;&gt;proton as the nucleus. Deuterium has a proton and a neutron. It fuses<BR>&gt;&gt;*much* more easily. And tritium has a proton and two neutrons, it fuses<BR>&gt;&gt;still easier yet. But it's rare and unstable.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Hydorgen molecules consist of two hydrogen atoms. There are two forms<BR>&gt;&gt;the molecules can have. One has the spin axes of the atoms pointing in<BR>&gt;&gt;the same direction the other has them pointing in opposite directions.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;One of these forms (I forget which) has more energy than the other.<BR>&gt;&gt;Which means that every so often, thru random chance, it'll change into<BR>&gt;&gt;the lower energy form and give of a little heat in the process. This is<BR>&gt;&gt;actually enough to *boil* liquid hydrogen.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Unless you use special catalysts, it takes a long time and a lot of<BR>&gt;&gt;cooling to get LH2 to all be the low energy form of the molecule.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;--<BR>&gt;&gt;Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>&gt;&gt;leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Victor J. Raymond<BR>&gt;Department of Sociology, ISU<BR>&gt;vraymond@iastate.edu<BR><BR>I think that it's much simpler than that. Jump fuel comes from three<BR>sources, generally. Gas Giants, ice or water (Which is the same as ice<BR>really). In the GG the hydrogen is mixed with other gases like helium,<BR>methane, etc. In water the hydrogen is bound in the water molecule. Refined<BR>fuel is simple pure hydrogen.<BR><BR>IMTU standard fusion reactors use very pure "low" energy form of the<BR>molecule. The Jump Drive can use a mixture of both the high and low energy<BR>form, although it's booster reactor uses deuterium, which must also be<BR>separated by the refining process.<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3743<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sunday, February 25 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3744<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>CT Reprints: MAJOR ERROR...<BR>Re: CT Reprints: MAJOR ERROR...<BR>Re: CT Reprints: MAJOR ERROR...<BR>Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR>Re: "Refined" fuel<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: H2 vs H2O<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: world series<BR>RE: world series<BR>Re: world series<BR>RE: world series<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR>Creation Workshop/GURPS Creator<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re : Indefinite Life Span<BR>Re: world series<BR>Duelling<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:33:24 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: CT Reprints: MAJOR ERROR...<BR><BR>If this has already been discussed, forgive me for bringing it<BR>up again.<BR><BR>Has anyone else purchased copies of the reprints of the Classic<BR>Traveller material (books 0 thru 8 in one volume, and supplements<BR>1 thru 13 in a 2nd volume)?&nbsp; I ask because I just bought both and<BR>the volume containing the supplements appears to have a *BIG*<BR>set of pages missing, right in the middle.<BR><BR>Supplement 5 (Lighting Class Cruisers) is followed by Supplement<BR>6 (76 Patrons), as one might expect.&nbsp; Upon reading these 2 sections,<BR>I discovered that, instead of the 42+ pages for "Cruisers" and the 48<BR>pages for "Patrons", the "Cruisers" section end abruptly after page<BR>27, and is immediately followed by page 16 of "Patrons". The rest of<BR>the "Patrons" section continues normally until the end at page 48.<BR><BR>In effect, pages 28 thru 42+ are missing from "Cruisers" and pages<BR>1 thru 15 are missing from "Patrons".<BR><BR>Did the entire print run end up like this, or did I just get a single bad<BR>copy (which I can exchange at my FLGS)?<BR><BR>Enquiring (concerned) minds want to know.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:02:47 +0000<BR>From: "Doug C." &lt;dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: CT Reprints: MAJOR ERROR...<BR><BR>Looks like you got a bad one!<BR>I checked my copy and it has all pages, asked on friends who just got<BR>his on Friday and his is OK.&nbsp; Our local gaming store reports no returns<BR>or complaints.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'd suggest contact the store where you purchased it,<BR>or FarFuture re an exchange.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Doug :-)<BR><BR>"Mark F. Cook" wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; If this has already been discussed, forgive me for bringing it<BR>&gt; up again.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Has anyone else purchased copies of the reprints of the Classic<BR>&gt; Traveller material (books 0 thru 8 in one volume, and supplements<BR>&gt; 1 thru 13 in a 2nd volume)?&nbsp; I ask because I just bought both and<BR>&gt; the volume containing the supplements appears to have a *BIG*<BR>&gt; set of pages missing, right in the middle.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Supplement 5 (Lighting Class Cruisers) is followed by Supplement<BR>&gt; 6 (76 Patrons), as one might expect.&nbsp; Upon reading these 2 sections,<BR>&gt; I discovered that, instead of the 42+ pages for "Cruisers" and the 48<BR>&gt; pages for "Patrons", the "Cruisers" section end abruptly after page<BR>&gt; 27, and is immediately followed by page 16 of "Patrons". The rest of<BR>&gt; the "Patrons" section continues normally until the end at page 48.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In effect, pages 28 thru 42+ are missing from "Cruisers" and pages<BR>&gt; 1 thru 15 are missing from "Patrons".<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Did the entire print run end up like this, or did I just get a single bad<BR>&gt; copy (which I can exchange at my FLGS)?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Enquiring (concerned) minds want to know.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Mark C.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:06:56 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: CT Reprints: MAJOR ERROR...<BR><BR>On 02/24/01 at 09:02 PM,&nbsp; "Doug C." &lt;dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;Looks like you got a bad one!<BR>&gt;I checked my copy and it has all pages, asked on friends who just<BR>&gt;got his on Friday and his is OK.&nbsp; Our local gaming store reports no<BR>&gt;returns or complaints.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'd suggest contact the store where you<BR>&gt;purchased it, or FarFuture re an exchange.<BR><BR>&gt;Regards,<BR>&gt;Doug :-)<BR><BR>&gt;"Mark F. Cook" wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; If this has already been discussed, forgive me for bringing it<BR>&gt;&gt; up again.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Has anyone else purchased copies of the reprints of the Classic<BR>&gt;&gt; Traveller material (books 0 thru 8 in one volume, and supplements<BR>&gt;&gt; 1 thru 13 in a 2nd volume)?&nbsp; I ask because I just bought both and<BR>&gt;&gt; the volume containing the supplements appears to have a *BIG*<BR>&gt;&gt; set of pages missing, right in the middle.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Supplement 5 (Lighting Class Cruisers) is followed by Supplement<BR>&gt;&gt; 6 (76 Patrons), as one might expect.&nbsp; Upon reading these 2 sections,<BR>&gt;&gt; I discovered that, instead of the 42+ pages for "Cruisers" and the 48<BR>&gt;&gt; pages for "Patrons", the "Cruisers" section end abruptly after page<BR>&gt;&gt; 27, and is immediately followed by page 16 of "Patrons". The rest of<BR>&gt;&gt; the "Patrons" section continues normally until the end at page 48.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; In effect, pages 28 thru 42+ are missing from "Cruisers" and pages<BR>&gt;&gt; 1 thru 15 are missing from "Patrons".<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Did the entire print run end up like this, or did I just get a single bad<BR>&gt;&gt; copy (which I can exchange at my FLGS)?<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Enquiring (concerned) minds want to know.<BR><BR>It's been discussed.&nbsp; I got *extra* pages...maybe even yours, because they were in that area...that duplicated part of one book.&nbsp; I didn't send mine back for a replacement, because everything was there. If you're missing pages you *should* get a replacement.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:05:50 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR><BR>Peter Newman wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt; wrote<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; But can you imagine what interstellar baseball would be like,<BR>&gt; &gt; with each world having different gravities and atmospheres?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The way to play baseball or another sport on the interstellar<BR>&gt; level would be to get a surplus K'Kree ship that is just one<BR>&gt; big compartment, set up that compartment as a playing field,<BR>&gt; and jump it around between planets. The ship would maintain<BR>&gt; a constant standard gravity, pressure, etc. The visiting team<BR>&gt; would travel on the ship and the 'home' teams would play on the<BR>&gt; ship when it reached their planet.<BR><BR>That destroys much of baseball's character.&nbsp; How can you have<BR>Colorado's lower air pressure, Wrigley field's ivy and neighborhood<BR>spectators, the Green Monster and the Pinsky Pole at Fenway,<BR>the beautiful new Pac Bell park with the right field viewing area<BR>for passers by.<BR><BR>Good baseball players not only have to play their opponents,<BR>they have to play the field they are in.&nbsp; Just like golfers.&nbsp; Some<BR>parks/courses had advantages/disadvantages for different<BR>players.<BR><BR>If you did it with ships, it doesn't matter where you are playing.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:01:09 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: "Refined" fuel<BR><BR>On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:36:53 -0600, Victor Jason Raymond<BR>&lt;vraymond@iastate.edu&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Dear TMLers,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Back in the mists of time (or about five-six years ago), there was an <BR>&gt;explanation offered by a list-member of what was meant by "refined" fuel.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;IIRC, there was a sort of liquid hydrogen - or perhaps a process that could <BR>&gt;be applied to it - that caused the "fuel" to be particularly pure or <BR>&gt;uniform in character.&nbsp; I can't find the post in my somewhat-fragmented <BR>&gt;archives, but I just *bet* somebody here would recall what I am talking <BR>&gt;about.&nbsp; It was an application of a RL chemistry/physics "Obscure Fact" <BR>&gt;(maybe a particular *sort* of hydrogen?).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Does anybody remember this explanation?&nbsp; Much appreciation for any response.<BR><BR>Though I wasn't present on the TML at the time, could this be<BR>monoatomic hydrogen, otherwise known as single H or H radical.&nbsp; It is<BR>known that if you manage to maintain a supply of monoatomic hydrogen<BR>that it is highly reactive and will yield as near to atomic energy<BR>levels when it is allowed to bind with almost anything.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:01:03 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:12:56 +1100, Timothy Little<BR>&lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;David P. Summers wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; If you want to store the most hydrogen, I tend to go with as big a <BR>&gt;&gt; hydrocarbon as you can handle.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The biggest one I could find offhand (hexadecane, or cetane), has a<BR>&gt;hydrogen density of 116 kg/m^3 (1.62 ton/dton).&nbsp; Concentrated ammonia<BR>&gt;solution has the same hydrogen density, but more useful "waste"<BR>&gt;products.&nbsp; Liquid ammonia has a hydrogen density of 120 kg/m^3 -- the<BR>&gt;best H density I could find for any reasonable common compound.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Water has hydrogen density of 112 kg/m^2, and the small difference in<BR>&gt;hydrogen density is probably far outweighed by the ease of obtaining<BR>&gt;it and handling it, and its usefulness in other respects.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;SNIP&gt;<BR><BR>Though I'm not familiar with the specifics, I know that in present-day<BR>fuel cell usage, people have found that storing the H2 adsorbed on a<BR>palladium matrix achieves densities far in excess of liquid H2.&nbsp; I<BR>don't know if it reaches the levels you are describing above, but it<BR>would certainly be worthwhile looking at.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:57:36 -0500<BR>From: Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:24:24 -0500 (EST), Bruce Johnson<BR>&lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:07:00 -0000 grote1731@hotmail.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)<BR>&gt;wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; However, both teams actually play the game in overtime, with the team<BR>&gt;&gt;on offense performing the same tasks they did during the previous 60 minutes<BR>&gt;&gt;to get the ball within the field goal range of their kicker.&nbsp; The ball<BR>&gt;&gt;simply isn't teed up at the 25 yard line automatically and the team with the<BR>&gt;&gt;best out of ten shots wins.&nbsp; They play the game to get it there.&nbsp; Play The<BR>&gt;&gt;Game.<BR><BR>&gt;And of course, gragging it back Off-Topic; this is exactly how they break ties<BR>&gt;in baseball...by playing until there isn't one.<BR><BR>Well, not exactly, but close.&nbsp; Don't forget about the 'Home Team Last<BR>Licks' rule - if the visitors are ahead at the end of the top half of the<BR>inning, the home team gets another shot.&nbsp; If the home team is ahead at that<BR>point (or at the end of the inning), it's over.<BR>- --<BR>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:59:51 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O<BR><BR>JR Holmes wrote:<BR>&gt; Though I'm not familiar with the specifics, I know that in present-day<BR>&gt; fuel cell usage, people have found that storing the H2 adsorbed on a<BR>&gt; palladium matrix achieves densities far in excess of liquid H2.<BR><BR>In excess, yes.&nbsp; But not *far* in excess.&nbsp; Such a system is generally<BR>hard-pressed to reach a loading of 1.0 H/Pd (literally hard-pressed,<BR>using pressures of thousands of atmospheres).&nbsp; Smaller loadings can be<BR>obtained by electrochemical means, with high resistive losses.<BR><BR>A loading of 1.0 H/Pd corresponds to a hydrogen density of 106 kg/m^3,<BR>making it slightly worse than water.&nbsp; That assumes that all of the<BR>space is taken up by solid palladium which is fully loaded to the best<BR>of our technology.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:49:07 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>On 02/23/01 at 06:34 PM,&nbsp; "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt; said:<BR><BR><BR>&gt;Mr. Reddoch,<BR><BR>No need for that, call me Eris.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:54:04 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>On 02/23/01 at 10:45 AM,&nbsp; "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;There's nothing better than being able to go out to a game on a<BR>&gt;&gt;warm sunny afternoon...<BR><BR>&gt;&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Wow, that was beautifully done.<BR><BR>Thank you, Doug. <BR><BR>&gt;Last year, we took some friend's kids to Pac Bell Park for a game. <BR>&gt;Great summer day, Giants/Cubbies, so I could root for both sides..<BR>&gt;perfect baseball day.<BR><BR>Hee, hee! <BR><BR>&gt;As we stood in Willie Mays Plaza it came out that these young'uns<BR>&gt;had *never* heard "Casey at the Bat."&nbsp; Shocking!&nbsp; I happen to know<BR>&gt;it by heart, so I started reciting it.&nbsp; I didn't notice that I was<BR>&gt;attracting an audience until I finished and the applause broke out. <BR>&gt;:)<BR><BR>Great piece of literature...probably only to Americans, though.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Eris<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:11:42 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>On 02/24/01 at 10:31 AM,&nbsp; "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote :<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; I cannot even imagine a football game being remotely<BR>&gt;&gt; interesting.&nbsp; This, of course, is due to my upbringing.<BR>&gt;&gt; Games go for 90 minutes, or more, and no one scores.&nbsp; Defense is far<BR>&gt;&gt; stronger and, thanks to the rules about passing the ball,<BR><BR>&gt;There are no rules about passing the ball.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; the offense is pitifully weak.<BR><BR>&gt;Hmm, obviously never seen a good striker in action.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; If a soccer game is scoreless after 90 minutes,<BR>&gt;&gt; you've been bored for that long.<BR><BR>Frank, let me disassociate myself from Larson's comments in this<BR>case.&nbsp; This American thinks that Soccer, as we call it here, is a<BR>fine game filled with strategy and drama and played by skilled<BR>athletes.&nbsp; I enjoy Aussie football and Rugby when I get a chance to<BR>see them, too.&nbsp; If I had seen more than a few seconds of cricket I'm<BR>sure I'd judge it a fine game as well. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Sports junkie that I am, I still follow baseball.&nbsp; If I had the rank<BR>my favorite team sports as a spectator/fan they would be:&nbsp; Major<BR>League Baseball, American College Football, College Basketball,<BR>American Professional Football, Canadian Football, English Football<BR>(soccer), Australian Football, College Baseball, Professional<BR>Basketball, and Rugby.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:27:54 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>On 02/24/01 at 12:54 AM,&nbsp; mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson) said:<BR><BR>&gt;In-Reply-To: &lt;3.0.5.16.20010223104551.3ba7e4d8@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Greetings dear hearts, especially Douglas.<BR><BR>&gt;Thank you for the 'Casey at the Bat' poem... while still not<BR>&gt;knowing&nbsp; anything about baseball (yes, Mr Whipsnade, your kind<BR>&gt;offer has been noted&nbsp; and if I'm ever in the right place at the<BR>&gt;right time I would be delighted&nbsp; to accept your escort to a game!)<BR>&gt;I collect stories and poems for&nbsp; 'traditional storytelling' - my 4<BR>&gt;year old may get that in the morning&nbsp; when she gets out of bed.<BR>&gt;She's had a daily story since she was 2 days old&nbsp; (which was when I<BR>&gt;was well enough to see her...).<BR><BR>Mexal, the recitation of "Casey at the Bat" was a standard for professional orators in travelling companies of entertainers during a hundred years ago. It captures the feel of the US, especially, in that period.<BR><BR>If you collect stories, I'm sure you are as familar with "Paul Bunyan", "Pecos Bill", "Casey Jones", and "Uncle Remus" as you are with "Beatrix Potter."<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 07:29:52 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote :<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I cannot even imagine a football game being remotely interesting.&nbsp; <BR>This, of course, is due to my upbringing."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Frank, let me disassociate myself from Larson's comments in this<BR>case."<BR><BR>Eris,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Everyone seems to be forgetting my assertion that I had been exposed to <BR>football (soccer) as a youngster, I would be as big a fan as anyone else on <BR>the planet.&nbsp; I've made sure to put that tidbit in every post on this OT <BR>topic, but it seems to get lost somehow.&nbsp; It seems my clumsy writing style <BR>buries my "excuse" in each post.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As for other sports, I played rugby (and have the facial scars to prove <BR>it) and have enjoyed either playing in or watching most any contest you can <BR>imagine (except those pitting animals against humans or each other).<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; My "problem" with FIFA football is the extremely silly way it ends tie <BR>matches.&nbsp; indeed one of the few matches I ever attended ended in that <BR>manner.&nbsp; My host had explained the game to me during regulation play and I <BR>found myself enjoying it, especially the ebb and flow of the ball's <BR>movement.&nbsp; Then a tie occurred and the shoot out settled things.&nbsp; It was <BR>quite a let down and left me quite sour on the game.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; But, hey, it's just one grey-headed, fat man's opinion.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:42:46 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>On 02/24/01 at 09:46 AM,&nbsp; "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;At 08:44 AM 2/24/2001 +1000, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Out of idle curiousity:&nbsp; is soccer more popular in areas with large Latino<BR>&gt;&gt;populations?<BR><BR>&gt;Not really.&nbsp; The San Jose Earthquakes play in a heavily Latino<BR>&gt;area, and have a re hard time filling seats.<BR><BR>I'd argue that soccer *is* more popular in heavily populated immigrant areas, but the soccer they are interested in is *not* American Professional Soccer.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'd much rather watch a game between Manchester and Leeds or Brazil vs. Columbia on TV than one between San Jose and LA...wouldn't you?<BR><BR>There are several reasons Major League Soccer isn't working in the US. It doesn't have the fan(atic) base of older, more established, sports here. There isn't, yet, a strong feeder system (college or minor league teams) that trains the thousands of players from which a few tens emerge good enough to play a game at a very high skill level. There isn't a consistantly high level of teaching skill among soccer coaches, yet (that's were a lot of those thousands that don't make it in other sports end up).&nbsp; Frankly, I think the concentration should be on high school and college for now. A successful professional league is still probably 20 years off.<BR><BR>Eris<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 07:53:02 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR><BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "That destroys much of baseball's character.&nbsp; How can you have<BR>Colorado's lower air pressure, Wrigley field's ivy and neighborhood<BR>spectators, the Green Monster and the Pinsky Pole at Fenway,<BR>the beautiful new Pac Bell park with the right field viewing area<BR>for passers by."<BR><BR><BR>Bloo,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Why not a series of "Classic Park Ships"?&nbsp; The ships could be built <BR>with the odd lines, short foul poles, and all the other quirky bits that <BR>make each park so much fun to visit.&nbsp; An ISS Fenway, ISS Polo Grounds, and <BR>ISS Wrigley could barnstorm across the Solomani Rim.&nbsp; The ISS Candlestick <BR>could even set the air conditioning temperature a little lower and the fan <BR>speed a little higher than the others.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The teams could be made up of reenactors too.&nbsp; A "Gehrig" could take <BR>the double play ball from a "Jeter".&nbsp; Buckner, Williams, and Nomar could all <BR>play together on the Olde Towne Team, and the Cubbies would always have an <BR>"Ernie Banks".<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; My partially insane 57th century descendants, who take after their <BR>progenitor naturally, would save up for the oh-so-pricey tickets when the <BR>ISS Tiger Stadium, complete with an "Ernie Harwell" announcer, makes orbit <BR>above Apponaug Starport on New Rhode Island.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>P.S. The current trend by corporate weasels to "name" ballparks, stadiums, <BR>and college bowl games after their firms and products is something I'll <BR>never stomach.&nbsp; Candlestick is Candlestick, not 3Com.&nbsp; Joe Robbie is Joe <BR>Robbie, not ProPlayer.&nbsp; The new S.F. Giants park should been named for Mr. <BR>Willie Mays, the "Say Hey Kid", and not for which ever "new economy" telecom <BR>slimeball coughed up the biggest check.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:00:02 -0800<BR>From: "Craig Brain" &lt;cjbrain@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Creation Workshop/GURPS Creator<BR><BR>I have just purchased this software and was wondering if anyone here has any<BR>Traveller templates for use with them?<BR><BR>The manuals are not particularly user-friendly, telling you to use the<BR>online help, which in turn seems to go in circles.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 08:02:00 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "A successful professional league is still probably 20 years off."<BR><BR>Eris,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I remember the same phrase over 25 years ago when Pele kicked off a pro <BR>league in the US.&nbsp; That was about 3 pro leagues ago.&nbsp; It didn't happen then, <BR>and it won't in the future.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; There are too many sports choices in the US and the immigrants' <BR>children could care less about their parents' hometown teams.&nbsp; Young <BR>hispanics are wearing Yankees and basketball jerseys, not the togs belonging <BR>to the wonderful football teams in central and south America.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; We have a large Portuguese and Italian community in my area.&nbsp; The newly <BR>arrived follow their favorite clubs in the "old country".&nbsp; Their kids <BR>couldn't care less.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:29:29 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Indefinite Life Span<BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn wrote :-<BR>&gt; I'm fairly sure I saw a study of developed nations that showed that<BR>&gt; for a given average income the country with the greatest wealth<BR>&gt; difference had the lowest life expectancy, even in the wealthy<BR>&gt; component of its population.<BR>Within the OECD group, there is some positive correlation between income<BR>ratio and life expectancy, but it is small. Breaking the population up by<BR>income doesn't improve the correlation.<BR><BR>Crime rates would have to be very different between countries for them to<BR>have a significant impact on life expectancy. Homicide or suicide accounts<BR>for about 5% of all deaths (.5%/~5% respectively).<BR><BR>Other factors come into play : infrastructure access, health care provision,<BR>education, nutrition...<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:56 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;200102250729.HAA60191@pompano.pcola.gulf.net&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts, especially Eris.<BR><BR>I know 'Paul Bunyan' &amp; 'Casey Jones' - but I haven't heard of 'Pecos <BR>Bill'. Hmm. Time to go netrunning...<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 14:47 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Duelling<BR><BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>I have been writing the Duelling section of that scenario I <BR>was talking about. Would you good people care to look it <BR>over?<BR><BR>&lt;&lt;Begin quote&gt;&gt;<BR><BR>Anyone can direct the party to the Golden Pyramid Duelling <BR>Arena, the most prestigious one on the planet. Indeed, a <BR>live feed to one TV station is broadcast on a permanent <BR>basis, with reruns of classic duels, commentaries and the <BR>like broadcast when nobody is fighting. Arena A is reserved <BR>for renowned fighters - as the two people most likely to <BR>wish to fight with the party (St Brioche and Cascada) fall <BR>into this category, this will be the venue for any duel <BR>during the adventure. Moreover, even if the fight involves <BR>somebody else, business is a bit slack and offworlders <BR>wishing to participate in this traditional Lehari activity <BR>have a certain novelty value.<BR><BR>The combat area itself is a standard 20 metre circle of <BR>sand, delimited by a thick rope dyed crimson. While this <BR>can be anywhere, here in the formal setting of Arena A it <BR>is mounted on a raised platform with seating around it. <BR>Think of a Sumo basho or boxing ring.<BR><BR>The procedure is as follows: -<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The challenge must be formally stated before a <BR>Judge of Honour. A big establishment like the Golden <BR>Pyramid has half a dozen on the staff. The one who will <BR>deal with the characters is Madam Judge Sarai Tamazarian. <BR>To state the challenge, the aggrieved party should say, <BR>"Sir you do me insult. I require satisfaction on the field <BR>of honour." No response is necessary; the challenged <BR>person's presence in the Judge of Honour's office indicates <BR>their acceptance of the challenge. The Judge then asks if <BR>an apology or restitution is acceptable, if this is the <BR>case, the Judge then asks the challenged person if he is <BR>prepared to offer one. <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Assuming that no reconciliation is possible, the <BR>details are settled. The challenger is required to indicate <BR>whether a duel to the death is necessary or if 'first <BR>blood' will satisfy him. A date and time is then arranged <BR>for the duel. Normally, the duel will take place within 24 <BR>hours of the formal challenge. During this period, the <BR>combatants are expected to avoid each other.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; At the time appointed, the duellists are required <BR>to appear in the arena before the Judge of Honour, who <BR>asks, "Are you both resolved to proceed?" On being answered <BR>in the affirmative, the Judge retires to an elevated seat <BR>and signals the start of the duel by dropping a large white <BR>handkerchief.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; For the duel, combatants are required to wear light <BR>trunks and soft shoes with special soles designed to give a <BR>good foothold on the arena floor. Female duellists may wear <BR>a close-fitting tee shirt. The traditional weapon is a <BR>'foil' - somewhat more substantial than the weapon used in <BR>a fencing club, it is more like the sort of sword one of <BR>the Three Musketeers might have carried; a foot-long dagger <BR>with a plain cross-hilt is carried in the 'off' hand.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Regulation clothing and weapons are available for <BR>hire at a cost of Cr.250 for individuals who do not possess <BR>their own. Alternatively, many stores in Lehar City are <BR>able to supply them.<BR><BR><BR>Name&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Damage&nbsp; TL&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Range&nbsp;&nbsp; Shots&nbsp;&nbsp; Mass&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>Reloads Cost<BR>Lehari Foil&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2D&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Contact N/a&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 0.75kg&nbsp; N/a&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>Cr700+<BR>Fencing Dagger&nbsp; 1D&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Contact N/a&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 0.5kg&nbsp;&nbsp; N/a&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>Cr400+<BR><BR>Typical Clothing Costs<BR>Duelling trunks&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Cr.50<BR>Duelling shoes&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Cr.35<BR>Tee shirt&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Cr.30<BR><BR>Once started by the Judge of Honour, the combat continues <BR>until the 'satisfaction' conditions set by the challenger <BR>are met - First Blood or Death. If one of the combatants is <BR>rendered unconscious, the other may opt to end the fight <BR>there, or kill his opponent (an act considered 'unsporting' <BR>although legitimate).<BR><BR>At the Golden Pyramid Duelling Arena, a permanent medical <BR>station is maintained: people duelling elsewhere may not be <BR>so well served. Basic first aid from the Golden Pyramid <BR>medical service is included in the cost of the duel. <BR>Further treatment in hospital is at individual expense.<BR><BR>Duelling Costs<BR><BR>The Challenge before a Judge of Honour&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Cr.50 from <BR>each party<BR>Arena hire&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Cr.100 from <BR>each party<BR><BR>However, if - as is likely at the Golden Pyramid - the duel <BR>is broadcast, a fee will be payable to the participants. <BR>This depends on the reputation of the participants, and <BR>needs to be settled with the local representative of the <BR>broadcaster before the bout. Typical fees range from <BR>Cr.1,000 up. Noted duellists such as St Brioche command a <BR>fee of Cr.10,000; Cascada could expect slightly less, <BR>Cr.7,000 or so. The novelty value of an offworld duellist <BR>will attract a fee of Cr.3,000. Note that the fee is paid <BR>AFTER the duel, to the victor - so an 'unknown' who <BR>succeeds in defeating a famous exponent of the duellist's <BR>art may stand to gain considerably more than reputation. <BR>However, duelling for any reason other than a matter of <BR>honour is frowned upon, and may result in legal proceedings <BR>even if the correct procedures have been followed.<BR><BR>In addition, the participants receive a share of ticket <BR>sales - and this at least is paid to both duellists. For <BR>Arena A the likely proceeds will be in the order of Cr.500 <BR>apiece, individual seats sell at Cr.10. It is normal that <BR>the duellist's companions will be admitted free of charge.<BR><BR>Rules<BR><BR>The skill used for the contest is Fencing. Blade Combat at <BR>half may be substituted if no Fencing skill is held. <BR><BR>For each combat round of the event: -<BR><BR>1.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Determine Initiative: 1D from each participant, <BR>highest roll to go first.<BR>2.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The loser of the initiative roll must state whether <BR>he wishes to Parry or mount a Counterattack. Either action <BR>is simultaneous with the winner's Attack roll; however if a <BR>Counterattack is made, the Attack if successful will do its <BR>damage unhindered. If a Parry is performed, it can stop an <BR>attack if it is successful. A Counterattack cannot be <BR>defended against.<BR>3.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The person with higher Initiative makes an Attack <BR>roll of 2D + Fencing skill, and the opponent may Parry or <BR>Counterattack with 2D + Fencing skill. The Attack requires <BR>a roll of 8+ to be successful, a Parry requires 8+ and a <BR>Counterattack requires 10+.<BR>4.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Assess damage done.<BR>5.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The loser of the Initiative roll may now Attack. <BR>The opponent has the choice of Parry or Counterattack. Make <BR>rolls as above.<BR>6.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; At this point, both individuals may attempt to use <BR>their daggers. The options available are: -<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Trap opponent's foil - 9+ on 2D +  Fencing skill.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Stab opponent - 7+ on 2D (no modifier).<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Parry opponent's dagger - 7+ on 2D + Fencing or <BR>Blade Combat skill.<BR><BR>Then repeat the process until there is a result for the <BR>duel.<BR><BR>&lt;&lt;End quote&gt;&gt;<BR><BR>Any thoughts? I want the fights to move reasonably fast - <BR>the whole game must run in a 4-hour convention slot so I <BR>don't want to get too bogged down in a sword fight, but I <BR>do want it to be a memorable experience for the players.<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3744<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sunday, February 25 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3745<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>TML FAQ, HGDSS, FFS Equations and Sign-Off<BR>Re: (mostly OT) Cricket<BR>Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR>RE: (mostly OT) Cricket<BR>Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR>Re: "Refined" fuel<BR>Re: world series<BR>Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR>Dino's Last Message<BR>Re: Darrian names?<BR>Interstellar sport - (was: world series, soccer, etc.)<BR>Re: More KB3 Questions<BR>Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR>Re: More KB3 Questions<BR>Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR>Attention Doug Berry: Your Minions are Ready<BR>RE: world series<BR>RE: world series<BR>RE: world series<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 14:49:17 -0000<BR>From: "Stuart C. Squibb" &lt;scs@vectis.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: TML FAQ, HGDSS, FFS Equations and Sign-Off<BR><BR>Dear All,<BR><BR>Real Life has meant that I have been unable to devote any significant time<BR>to traveller over the last 12 months or so. As a result of this I have taken<BR>the decision to end my various traveller mailing-list subscriptions and take<BR>down my Traveller web site.<BR><BR>The TML FAQ will be available from my web site in zipped archives of the<BR>text and HTML versions until 1st April 2001.<BR><BR>HGDSS my High Guard Design Sequence Spreadsheet for Excel 97 will also be<BR>available until 1st April 2001. Anyone who wishes to take the development of<BR>HGDSS on has my permission to do so, provided that they don't call the<BR>result HGDSS. A 'derived from HGDSS' comment in the resulting code would be<BR>nice, but I don't insist on it.<BR><BR>My tidied up equations for FFS2 will also be available as a zipped archives<BR>of the Word 97 and HTML/GIF versions until 1st April 2001.<BR><BR>The above items are available on my web-site:<BR><BR>http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller<BR><BR>Keep the Flame,<BR><BR>Stuart.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:49:21 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: (mostly OT) Cricket<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 01, at 22:53, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; My cryptic "cheese in the kitchen and a yakker for a kudo" can be <BR>&gt; explained like this.&nbsp; Cheese (a fastball) in the kitchen (close to the <BR>&gt; batter) and a yakker (a slider) for a kudo (a strikeout).&nbsp; The squirrel bait <BR>&gt; who came up with that one also referred to liquor as "oil" and money as <BR>&gt; "iron".<BR><BR>Sounds like the article in yesterday's enwspaper I saw about <BR>"Dubya"'s[1] penchant for nicknaming everyone.&nbsp; (To the point that no <BR>one in the White House staff knows who he's talking about - evidently <BR>Dubya asked for "Guns"<BR>to go to Kansas City for something, and the aide told Gen. Colin <BR>Powell to go, figuring no one else but him would be called "Guns".<BR>He got halfway there before the mixup was realized and when asked, <BR>President Bush only said "Why on earth would I send Balloonfoot to do<BR>Guns job?" or something like that.)<BR><BR>Rob<BR><BR>[1] (Thanks, Glenn)<BR>- --<BR>Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net<BR><BR>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:<BR>Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum<BR>immane mittam.<BR>I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous<BR>rock at your head.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 09:01:29 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Scott Ayres &lt;ayrcontml@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR><BR>With gravitics, I imagine that there'd be a movement<BR>to keep particular sports "pure" (in their native<BR>gravity).&nbsp; <BR><BR>"Baseball ain't 'real' baseball unless you play it at<BR>1G."<BR><BR>Scott Ayres<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:47:15<BR>&gt; From: "Douglas E. Berry"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; At 11:47 AM 2/24/2001 -0600, you wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;But can you imagine what interstellar baseball<BR>&gt; would be like, with each world having different <BR>&gt; gravities and atmospheres?<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:07:58 -0500<BR>From: "Chris Seamans" &lt;semo@pil.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: (mostly OT) Cricket<BR><BR>Rob Davenport wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Sounds like the article in yesterday's enwspaper I saw about <BR>&gt;"Dubya"'s[1] penchant for nicknaming everyone.&nbsp; (To the point that no <BR>&gt;one in the White House staff knows who he's talking about - evidently <BR>&gt;Dubya asked for "Guns"<BR>&gt;to go to Kansas City for something, and the aide told Gen. Colin <BR>&gt;Powell to go, figuring no one else but him would be called "Guns".<BR>&gt;He got halfway there before the mixup was realized and when asked, <BR>&gt;President Bush only said "Why on earth would I send Balloonfoot to do<BR>&gt;Guns job?" or something like that.)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Just out of curiosity, which newspaper did you see that in?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:05:54 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; OS/2 Warp 4&nbsp;&nbsp; AMD K6-2-500&nbsp; &nbsp; 320&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "main box"<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Gee, someones still using OS/2 ?<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Even IBM aren't doing that anymore ! &lt;grin&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Want to bet? They've *guaranteed* support for 5 more years. Which is<BR>&gt;&gt; more than Microsoft will do with Windows.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; They're _supporting_ it, they're not _using_ it.<BR><BR>&gt; Well, I suppose someone somewhere in IBM is still using it, but it's no<BR>&gt; longer the standard COE rollout, not since about 1997-98.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; And I thought they said only another five years two or three years ago ?<BR><BR>Which proves that they've got *lots* of customers using it. Also, one<BR>of their "new" products (eServer?) is merely OS/2 Warp 4.5 under a new name.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; But then I get an new one every year or two,<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; and I never get rid of the old ones.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I wasn't able to afford new ones for quite a few years.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Neither was I, but I never let not being able to afford something stop me.<BR>&gt; &lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>I mean *really* not afford. Not merely inconvenient, but *impossible*. <BR><BR>&gt; Well, the point of hooking the BBC up would be to download all the games and<BR>&gt; software I have for it to my PC so I can use it on a BBC emulator, and<BR>&gt; perhaps recoveer a few really old files, like my Traveller character<BR>&gt; generator written in BBC Basic, ported by hand from the listing of the<BR>&gt; original TRS80 Basic...<BR><BR>I just want to store the software for tose systems on a more reliable<BR>storage system.<BR><BR>I can recover stuff easily enough, just by using terminal oprograms on<BR>the TRS-80 suff.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:11:52 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: "Refined" fuel<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:36:53 -0600, Victor Jason Raymond<BR>&gt; &lt;vraymond@iastate.edu&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Dear TMLers,<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Back in the mists of time (or about five-six years ago), there was an <BR>&gt;&gt;explanation offered by a list-member of what was meant by "refined" fuel.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;IIRC, there was a sort of liquid hydrogen - or perhaps a process that could <BR>&gt;&gt;be applied to it - that caused the "fuel" to be particularly pure or <BR>&gt;&gt;uniform in character.&nbsp; I can't find the post in my somewhat-fragmented <BR>&gt;&gt;archives, but I just *bet* somebody here would recall what I am talking <BR>&gt;&gt;about.&nbsp; It was an application of a RL chemistry/physics "Obscure Fact" <BR>&gt;&gt;(maybe a particular *sort* of hydrogen?).<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Does anybody remember this explanation?&nbsp; Much appreciation for any response.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Though I wasn't present on the TML at the time, could this be<BR>&gt; monoatomic hydrogen, otherwise known as single H or H radical.&nbsp; It is<BR>&gt; known that if you manage to maintain a supply of monoatomic hydrogen<BR>&gt; that it is highly reactive and will yield as near to atomic energy<BR>&gt; levels when it is allowed to bind with almost anything.<BR><BR>No, monatomic hydrogen won't yield anythung remotely approach nuclear<BR>energy levels. It does supply a lot of energy when allowed to recomine<BR>into diatomic molecular hydrogen. The resulting rocket engine would<BR>have an Isp of around 800. At least partly due to the low molecular<BR>weight of the exhaust. <BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:27:04 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: world series<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; In-Reply-To: &lt;200102250729.HAA60191@pompano.pcola.gulf.net&gt;<BR>&gt; Greetings dear hearts, especially Eris.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I know 'Paul Bunyan' &amp; 'Casey Jones' - but I haven't heard of 'Pecos <BR>&gt; Bill'. Hmm. Time to go netrunning...<BR><BR>Also check out "Alfred(?) Bullhead Stormalong". He's to merchant seamen<BR>of the sailing era what Paul Bunyan was to loggers. The name was set up<BR>to match the "ABS" initials (for Able Bodied Seamn) used when signing<BR>on a ship.<BR><BR>When he retired the stories have him shouldering an oar and stating<BR>that he was going to start walking inland until someone asked him what<BR>the stick was. There he'd settle down.<BR><BR>I have a book (buried in storage along with far too many others) goes<BR>into a lot of this sort of American folklore. I was given oit as a<BR>child and kept it ever since.<BR><BR>BTW, in the section on "State Lore" they have a *lovely* for Colorado.<BR>And could be swiped for Traveller.<BR><BR>The "Slide-Rock Grabber" is a large lizard that lives in the mountains.<BR>It lies in wait at the top of steep slopes in valleys, with its tail<BR>wrapped around a tree or large rock. <BR><BR>It waits for a group of animals (or a party of tourists) to pass below<BR>its perch. Then it releases the hold and starts sliding down the slop<BR>on its thick, smooth belly plates. It uses its short legs to steer and<BR>to increase its speed somewhat. <BR><BR>As it reaches its prey it is moving astonishingly fast and opens its<BR>large mouth to scoop them up in passing. Then it slides up the other<BR>slope, using its legs more and more as it slows. At last it drags<BR>itself to a good anchor point and wraps its tail around it and hangs<BR>facing downslope, digesting its prey and waiting for the next batch to<BR>come along.<BR><BR>They are currently endangered due to over hunting (dummies stuffed with<BR>styrichnine or dynamite were used).<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:17:40 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt; wrote<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The way to play baseball or another sport on the interstellar<BR>&gt; level would be to get a surplus K'Kree ship that is just one<BR>&gt; big compartment, set up that compartment as a playing field,<BR>&gt; and jump it around between planets. The ship would maintain<BR>&gt; a constant standard gravity, pressure, etc. The visiting team <BR>&gt; would travel on the ship and the 'home' teams would play on the <BR>&gt; ship when it reached their planet.<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; If the sport in question is popular enough you might even be able<BR>&gt; to justify the costs but it might be better to gloss over the economics <BR>&gt; involved.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Thoughts?<BR><BR>It'd be much simpler to either build an orbital station, or even build<BR>stadium with pressure and gravity control, and let the players travel<BR>by regular ships.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:13:34 -0000<BR>From: "Jeff Rowse" &lt;jeffrowse@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Dino's Last Message<BR><BR>Hiya peeps,<BR><BR>All this discussion of what we would find if Dino Flintstone had left his <BR>mark reminds me of the first Terry 'Discworld' Pratchett book I read, <BR>"Strata".&nbsp; Worth a read, IMNSHO.<BR><BR>The fossil was found holding a placard saying 'End Nuclear testing NOW!"<BR><BR>Just thought I'd share it.<BR><BR>TTFN.<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:32:42 -0500<BR>From: Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Darrian names?<BR><BR>On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:34:17 -0500 (EST), eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;On 02/18/01 at 11:04 PM,&nbsp; Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;I have a spreadsheet that generates names for 13 different Trav<BR>&gt;&gt;languages&nbsp; (Ael Yael, Aslan, Darrian, Dynchia, Gvegh, Happirhvani,<BR>&gt;&gt;Hkar, K'kree,&nbsp; Norsk, Oynprith, Vilani, Vuakedh and Zhodani).&nbsp; I<BR>&gt;&gt;can send it to you if you&nbsp; are interested.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Jimmy Simpson<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>&gt;That's something that should be hosted on a webpage somewhere. If one of<BR>&gt;the big Traveller sites, like Downport, isn't interested, Jimmy,&nbsp; send it<BR>&gt;to me, I'll host it on my little old webpage.<BR><BR>It'll be on Freelance Traveller's Computer Connection with the next update,<BR>rest assured.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:56:06 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Interstellar sport - (was: world series, soccer, etc.)<BR><BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "But can you imagine what interstellar baseball would be like, with <BR>each world having different gravities and atmospheres?"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "grin*&nbsp; I'm just picturing a pop-up on a world with .4g"<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The batter could probably enjoy a beer in the stands while waiting for <BR>it come back down.<BR><BR>Mr. Berry,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I believe that the different gravities and atmospheres would affect all <BR>sports played on an interstellar level.&nbsp; There would have to be quite a <BR>large section of rules for each governing body to use for "adjusting" any <BR>athletic venue.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Minor changes in something as simple as atmospheric pressure would <BR>effect the athletes themselves, never mind their equipment.&nbsp; Look at how <BR>long the track and field marks set during the Mexico City Olympics lasted.&nbsp; <BR>It's now commonplace for runners and bicyclists to train at altitude now.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; One of the members here (I'm sorry but I forgot your name, sir) made <BR>the suggestion that "vitual" athletes and teams would be shipped from world <BR>to world for competition.&nbsp; The competition involving these data packages <BR>could all be held at Earth-norm conditions inside a 57th century mainframe <BR>and rebroadcast holographically into homes and stadiums.&nbsp; Virtual <BR>competitors might herald the return of the so called "blood sports", with <BR>all horro of the Roman games intact.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Events featuring "real" athletes would still happen.&nbsp; Indeed they might <BR>be viewed as very special "once in a while" sort of thing, with exhorbitant <BR>ticket prices.&nbsp; Plenty of skullduggery there for your PCs to wallow in.<BR><BR>OBTrav:&nbsp; "The outlook wasn't brilliant for the Natoko Nine that day..."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The Delphine Cup, an interworld baseball trophy pitting all-star teams <BR>from Mora, Fornice, Natoko, Heroni, Lunion, and Strouden, will be played in <BR>one months time.&nbsp; All competing squads have arrived on Mora for training.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The Natoko Cub Sox, perennial door mats of the competition, are <BR>fielding their best team in years, thanks to the presence of Jorg "Kid" <BR>Kigiisii.&nbsp; The "Kid", while a phenomenal ball player, is an equally <BR>phenomenal carouser.&nbsp; The PCs are tapped to act as "distant" bodyguards.<BR>The visiable guards will know who the PCs are, but the general public <BR>shouldn't.&nbsp; The PCs will have to follow the "Kid" as he cuts a swath through <BR>Mora's nightlife; running interference with awestruck fans, paying for <BR>damages, picking up bar tabs, placating angry nightclub owners and angrier <BR>women, just generally trying to smooth things over.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; There are several rumors that other teams, book makers, and other bad <BR>guys will be trying to tempt the "Kid" off his game or just get him injured. <BR>&nbsp; They'll be trying to introduce "rotten apples" into to his entourage in <BR>order to stir up trouble and encourage bad behavior.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Can the PCs foil these many and varied plots and help the Cub Sox bring <BR>the trophy home to their legendary stadium, Wrigway Park, on the south side <BR>of Bostago?&nbsp; Or will the evil Mora Blue Bellies and their satanic owner, the <BR>Krurruna, "buy" the Trophy yet again?&nbsp; Millions of youngsters watching their <BR>tri-d radios on their arcology's front porch are hoping the PCs prevail.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen E. "Take me out to the ballgame" Whipsnade<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:11:43 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions<BR><BR>Dear Kenneth -<BR><BR>Thanks for you response, it was very helpful.<BR><BR>You wrote:<BR>&gt;An attribute roll gets a special modifier to the Difficulty.&nbsp; (Reduce the<BR>&gt;Difficulty by an amount equal to the stat.)<BR><BR>AH ha! That's the bit I was missing! (In fact, it was still missing when I<BR>went back and re-read your example).<BR><BR>However, you have just made things crystal clear.&nbsp; ;-)<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt;&gt; 2.&nbsp;&nbsp; "Exactly Equal" Cases<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Also, your rules missed the "exactly equals" cases:<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - when the Task Throw and Difficulty Throw are _equal_, which one<BR>&gt;&gt;prevails?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I didn't miss that (I just don't thing the "greater than or equal to" and<BR>"less<BR>&gt;than or equal to" signs came out right on the TML write up).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Just for clarification:&nbsp; if the Task Throw and the Difficulty Throw are<BR>equal,<BR>&gt;the Task Throw is a success.<BR><BR>So, in the following cases:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - when a successful Task Throw is _equal_ to Diff Throw + Stat, is it<BR>&gt;standard or marginal success?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - when a failed Task Throw is _equal_ to Diff Throw - Stat, is it a<BR>&gt;regular or greater failure?<BR><BR>...the answers are "standard success" and "regular failure", respectively?<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt;&gt; 4.&nbsp;&nbsp; How Do Task Throw Bonuses Work?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Modifiers ALWAYS are applied to the difficulty.&nbsp; They are ALMOST NEVER<BR>applied<BR>&gt;to the Task Roll (I say "almost" because there are one or two exceptions).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;In KB3, you're only modifing ONE number--the Difficulty.<BR><BR>Ah, that makes things much easier.<BR><BR>&gt;Negative.&nbsp; Reduce your difficulty with your mods from your better<BR>equipment--it<BR>&gt;will be MORE LIKELY that you roll Greater Success.<BR><BR>When you say "reduce your difficulty" do you also imply "use less dice on<BR>the Task Throw - it gives more chance of Greater Success"?<BR><BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material &amp; opinions contained within are solely those<BR>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:43:53 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR><BR>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Bloo,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Why not a series of "Classic Park Ships"?<BR><BR>For the same reason that Chris Thrash posited that<BR>soccer's popularity is that it needs only a ball.<BR>Baseball needs only a ball and a stick.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:12:58 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions<BR><BR>Dear Kenneth -<BR><BR>On e more thing I forgot to ask - when will the final version be written<BR>up, and are you planning to put it on the Web as well as the TML?<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material &amp; opinions contained within are solely those<BR>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:21:01 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>The canonical data should be the stuff in the _Regency Sourcebook_, right?<BR><BR>It has the 1120 data in there...<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material &amp; opinions contained within are solely those<BR>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:38:32 -0500<BR>From: "Fred Ramen" &lt;von_rammen@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Attention Doug Berry: Your Minions are Ready<BR><BR>The promo for next week's "Futurama" which aired after tonight's episode was<BR>for an episode called "When Penguins Attack."<BR><BR>In the promo, Leela says "and they used to be such peaceful birds" while<BR>penguins are seen attempting to swallow humans headfirst.<BR><BR>No Gridlore logos were seen, but they must surely figure in somewhere.<BR><BR>Fred "And now it's time for the penguin on top of your television to<BR>explode" Ramen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:15:55 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>On 25 Feb 2001, at 1:11, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Frank, let me disassociate myself from Larson's comments in this<BR>&gt; case.&nbsp; This American thinks that Soccer, as we call it here, is a<BR>&gt; fine game filled with strategy and drama and played by skilled<BR>&gt; athletes.&nbsp; I enjoy Aussie football and Rugby when I get a chance to<BR>&gt; see them, too.&nbsp; If I had seen more than a few seconds of cricket I'm<BR>&gt; sure I'd judge it a fine game as well. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>We call it soccer here, too (usually, that is). Football or "footie" means <BR>rugby.<BR><BR>&gt; Sports junkie that I am, I still follow baseball.&nbsp; If I had the rank<BR>&gt; my favorite team sports as a spectator/fan they would be:&nbsp; Major<BR>&gt; League Baseball, American College Football, College Basketball,<BR>&gt; American Professional Football, Canadian Football, English Football<BR>&gt; (soccer), Australian Football, College Baseball, Professional<BR>&gt; Basketball, and Rugby.<BR><BR>You really are a heretic, aren't you? Nobody should be putting American <BR>Football, Gridiron, whatever before Rugby (Union, not that crappy league <BR>thing).<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:07:41 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; My "problem" with FIFA football is the extremely silly way<BR>&gt; it ends tie matches.&nbsp; indeed one of the few matches I ever attended ended<BR>in that<BR>&gt; manner.&nbsp; My host had explained the game to me during regulation<BR>&gt; play and I<BR>&gt; found myself enjoying it, especially the ebb and flow of the ball's<BR>&gt; movement.&nbsp; Then a tie occurred and the shoot out settled things.&nbsp; It was<BR>&gt; quite a let down and left me quite sour on the game.<BR><BR>It's a shame when that happens, but unfortunately the old way, to replay the<BR>match, was just too expensive and time consuming in today's&nbsp; regime of<BR>tightly scheduled tournaments.<BR>Playing till one side wins is equally out when players are so expensive.<BR><BR>You only get a shoot out after the teams have played an additional fifteen<BR>minutes each way, so the players will have been playing for 2 hours by the<BR>time the shoot-out occurs, and if they kept them playing longer that, I'm<BR>sure there would be complaints about risking damage to the players !<BR><BR>Usually you only get shoot outs when both sides are really good, and no-one<BR>makes any mistakes (or they make an equal number of mistakes).<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:20:53 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thank you for repsonse to my post concerning the world's<BR>&gt; most popular&nbsp; game.&nbsp; While my views do no agree with yours,<BR>&gt; I did did point out that they arise from my not being exposed<BR>&gt; to football as a child.<BR><BR>OK, I haven't played in ages, so I apologize if the rules have changed or I<BR>remember incorrectly, but here's nmy understanding iof the rules.<BR><BR>&gt; What I meant to say there are prohibitions about<BR>&gt; to whom and to where the ball can be passed.<BR><BR>No, there are prohibitions on where a player may be when he isn't playing<BR>the ball.<BR><BR>&gt; IIRC, an offensive player can be no nearer the goal than any<BR>&gt; defensive player, unless he is in possession of the ball.<BR><BR>The rule is not about to whom you can pass the ball, but on the position of<BR>the offensive player, and there must be at least two defenders between yuo<BR>and the goal, not _all_ of the defensive playrs.<BR><BR>In the past, just _being_ there was enough to cause a free kick, I think<BR>this has now been amended such that its only if you are in this position and<BR>you touch the ball that it's actually a foul, but I'm not sure, it may just<BR>that, as in the past, the refs only bothered calling offside when the player<BR>was near the ball.<BR><BR>&gt; If true, this shackles&nbsp; offensive players' movements.<BR>&gt; A player can not dart pass a defender,&nbsp; recieve a pass, and then attmept<BR>to score.<BR><BR>Yes, they can. They must, however, start "on side" before the ball is<BR>released (kicked)&nbsp; by the passing player, then they may "follow" the ball<BR>offside. What they can't do is be off-side when the ball is kicked and then<BR>play the ball.<BR><BR>&gt; Any striker, no matter how good, is forced to dribble<BR>&gt; his way past a succession of glue footed<BR>&gt; defenders,&nbsp; no&nbsp; matter how bad.<BR><BR>If he's in position, a maximum of two, and&nbsp; usually only one, defender(s)<BR>actually need to be beaten. It will be unusual that both of the defenders an<BR>attacker is keeping between him and the goal are on same side of the field,<BR>and if they are, rather than beating them he should just pass to the person<BR>the other wing who will then have no opponents, but can still be on-side.<BR><BR>&gt; The brilliance of his play is constantly diluted by the<BR>&gt; mediocraty of those around him.&nbsp; Considering this, it's<BR>&gt; amazing he ever scores at all.<BR>&gt; Admittedly, my knowledge of footbal is pitifully weak,<BR>&gt; but is my example above wrong?<BR><BR>Yes, it's not a rule about _passing_ the ball, it's a rule about the<BR>positiion of the offensive player. This is known as the "offside" rule, and<BR>originally you could be ruled offside if there was less than two players<BR>between you and the goalie, whether you had the ball or not.<BR><BR>Yes, this means a team may pull all their defenders up to the half way line<BR>preventing your players from entering their half, but in practice it's very<BR>dangerous "playing" the offside rule, because if you pull your defenders<BR>forward too far, they can't get back fast enough when there is a<BR>breakthrough (and there will always be a breakthrough at some time).<BR><BR>The major reason the rule was introduced was to make the game more<BR>interesting, as without it, a couple of attackers would _always_ sit&nbsp; up<BR>eight by the goalie, waiting for the ball to be kicked up there, and the<BR>game degenerated into a series of very long kicks followed by a goal shoot.<BR>There was no point in tactical play, dribbling, or building up an attack,<BR>because getting the ball near the oppositions goal as quickly as possible<BR>and shooting was all that was important.<BR><BR>Frankie.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "You macho philistine!&nbsp; Why is it that only _scoring_ is exciting to<BR>&gt; you ?"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mr. Pitt, such insults are beneath you.<BR><BR><BR>Don't worry, I<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I believe I did mention a that a scoreless game in baseball would<BR>&gt; involve the a very exciting "duel" between two pitchers.&nbsp; If I had been<BR>&gt; exposed to football as a child, the same defensive struggle<BR>&gt; between football<BR>&gt; sides would be equally exciting.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In my defense, I should mention that I much prefer low scoring,<BR>&gt; defensive games in American football too.&nbsp; However, I prefer basball to<BR>&gt; American football.&nbsp; Out football combines the two worst features of our<BR>&gt; culture; violence and committee meetings.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I did notice that you made no mention of football's asinine way to<BR>&gt; settle tie games in your passionate defense of the game to me.&nbsp; Do you<BR>&gt; prefer a kicking contest to the thrilling game play you wrote about?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As for my unhealthy interest in "scoring", it stems from a<BR>&gt; life time of&nbsp; failures in the pusuit of women, and I'd thank you not to<BR>mention it.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Larsen<BR>&gt; _________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt; Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3745<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (rly-zc05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.5]) by air-zc04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:09:07 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:08:33 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id VAA38184;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:05:28 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:04:13 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id VAA38135<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:04:12 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:04:12 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102260204.VAA38135@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3745<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, February 26 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3746<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>2300AD Web Ring?<BR>Re: 2300AD Web Ring?<BR>Re: 2300AD Web Ring?<BR>Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...<BR>RE: world series<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR>RE: Allen Steele<BR>RE: 2300AD Web Ring?<BR>New Traveller software project<BR>Re: More KB3 Questions<BR>Re: More KB3 Questions<BR>Re: More KB3 Questions<BR>Re: More KB3 Examples<BR>Re: More KB3 Questions<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 20:05:55 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>Press release:<BR>Murish Arms, div of CRH Industries, LIC<BR><BR>We wish to appolgise to our customers. After seeing our competitors ad<BR>here last week we realized that our marketing department was not doing<BR>thier job and have been fired (literally).<BR><BR>We have 2 lines of Sniper rifles available.&nbsp; Please check out our<BR>offerings.&nbsp; We believe that no sniper rifle can be adiquitely silenced<BR>so instead of trying to accomplish the impossible we have decided that<BR>it is better to get the bullet to the target long before he can hear it.<BR>Our light sniper rifle has a muzzle velocity of 942m/s and the heavy<BR>sniper rifle has a muzzle velocity of 951m/s accompishes this<BR>objective.&nbsp; Are armored troops causing you problems?&nbsp; Our 12mm and 15mm<BR>sniper rifles are guaranteed to hole Sylean surplus battledress (Central<BR>Supply Catolog, pg 19: Battledress-11).&nbsp; These weapons are also<BR>effective vrs. light vehicles found near battlefields and some armored<BR>limos.<BR><BR>12mm ETC Light Sniper rifle.<BR>&nbsp; This rifle uses a bullpup design to maximize barrel length,<BR>semi-automatic mechinism, electronic sights, muzzle break with recoil<BR>compensation, shock absorbing stock, and bipod.<BR>&nbsp; Mass 10.91kg<BR>&nbsp; Range (basic): 312 meters<BR>&nbsp; 5 round box magizine.<BR>&nbsp; Slug damage: 14<BR>&nbsp; Recoil: 1<BR>&nbsp; Flash: 2<BR><BR>15mm ETC Heavy Sniper Rifle:<BR>&nbsp; This rifle uses a bullpup design to maximize barrel length,<BR>semi-automatic mechinism, electronic sights, muzzle break, and bipod.<BR>&nbsp; Mass 17.04kg<BR>&nbsp; Range (basic): 358 meters<BR>&nbsp; 5 round box magizine.<BR>&nbsp; Slug damage: 16<BR>&nbsp; Recoil: 2<BR>&nbsp; Flash: 2<BR><BR>Carrying case for 15mm sniper rifle: Volume: .2m^3. Mass: 53kg (apparent<BR>loaded weight 2kg). Cost: 500Cr.<BR>Carrying case includes velvet/foam shock protection for weapon, space<BR>for 10 clips, space for 3 boxes (50rnd ea) of ammunition, CG and battery<BR>power for 48 hr and clip recharge.<BR>Convenient switch to conserve battery power. Case has an armor value of<BR>4.<BR><BR>We also currently have 2 antique reproductions on our reproductions page<BR>of the catolog for those who wish to appear to be antique collectors.<BR>Both of these weapons are 12.7mm caliber weapons from the early<BR>Interstellar War period.<BR><BR>See our sample catolog at<BR>http://home1.gte.net/res04u7k/Traveller/<BR><BR>Charles H<BR>President CRH Industries, LIC<BR>PS: We hope to increase the catolog to a full product line.&nbsp; If you<BR>don't see what you want please contact us.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:34:04 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Bernie McGeehan &lt;einreb62@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: 2300AD Web Ring?<BR><BR>I went to look up something there &amp; it was gone???<BR>Yahoo strikes again? There is a page that has a<BR>calculator for determining ship's spin to generate<BR>centrifical force...very handy thing...anyone know it<BR>&amp; have the URL? Damn Yahoo!<BR><BR>=====<BR>"I don't know much about what I like, but I do know Art."&nbsp; &nbsp; me @ the Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam (Terra/Sol 3)http://prattfall.tripod.com/index.html<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:14:20 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: 2300AD Web Ring?<BR><BR>&gt;I went to look up something there &amp; it was gone???<BR>&gt;Yahoo strikes again? There is a page that has a<BR>&gt;calculator for determining ship's spin to generate<BR>&gt;centrifical force...very handy thing...anyone know it<BR>&gt;&amp; have the URL? Damn Yahoo!<BR><BR>Ask and ye shall receive. Unless there are two 2300AD-related rotational <BR>habitat calculators out there, you're looking for:<BR><BR>http://www.bumply.com/2300/astro.htm<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:27:22 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Bernie McGeehan &lt;einreb62@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: 2300AD Web Ring?<BR><BR>That's the one! thank you<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ask and ye shall receive. Unless there are two<BR>&gt; 2300AD-related rotational <BR>&gt; habitat calculators out there, you're looking for:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; http://www.bumply.com/2300/astro.htm<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Cheers,<BR>&gt; Paul Drye<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;<BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt; Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at<BR>&gt; http://www.hotmail.com.<BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>"I don't know much about what I like, but I do know Art."&nbsp; &nbsp; me @ the Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam (Terra/Sol 3)http://prattfall.tripod.com/index.html<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:15:26 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;Subject: Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Looking good for me.&nbsp; My brother is a possible.<BR><BR>A possible what? Target?<BR><BR>- - Hyphen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:12:27 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn wrote :<BR>&gt; On 25 Feb 2001, at 1:11, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Frank, let me disassociate myself from Larson's comments in this<BR>&gt; &gt; case.&nbsp; This American thinks that Soccer, as we call it here, is a<BR>&gt; &gt; fine game filled with strategy and drama and played by skilled<BR>&gt; &gt; athletes.&nbsp; I enjoy Aussie football and Rugby when I get a chance to<BR>&gt; &gt; see them, too.&nbsp; If I had seen more than a few seconds of cricket I'm<BR>&gt; &gt; sure I'd judge it a fine game as well. &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; We call it soccer here, too (usually, that is). Football or<BR>&gt; "footie" means rugby.<BR><BR>Speak for yourself.<BR><BR>When I say "football" I mean football, not that johnny-come-lately game that<BR>was invented by a bunch of idiots at Rugby who didn't understand the "no<BR>hands" rule of _foot_ball.<BR>&lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:17:44 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>On 25 Feb 2001, at 20:05, Charles R Hensley wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Press release:<BR>&gt; Murish Arms, div of CRH Industries, LIC<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; We wish to appolgise to our customers. After seeing our competitors ad<BR>&gt; here last week we realized that our marketing department was not doing<BR>&gt; thier job and have been fired (literally).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; We have 2 lines of Sniper rifles available.&nbsp; Please check out our<BR>&gt; offerings.&nbsp; We believe that no sniper rifle can be adiquitely silenced<BR>&gt; so instead of trying to accomplish the impossible we have decided that<BR>&gt; it is better to get the bullet to the target long before he can hear it.<BR>&gt; Our light sniper rifle has a muzzle velocity of 942m/s and the heavy<BR>&gt; sniper rifle has a muzzle velocity of 951m/s accompishes this<BR>&gt; objective.&nbsp; Are armored troops causing you problems?&nbsp; Our 12mm and 15mm<BR>&gt; sniper rifles are guaranteed to hole Sylean surplus battledress (Central<BR>&gt; Supply Catolog, pg 19: Battledress-11).&nbsp; These weapons are also<BR>&gt; effective vrs. light vehicles found near battlefields and some armored<BR>&gt; limos.<BR><BR>Hah. Try a real gun. :) I don't believe in that crappy ETC stuff, not when you <BR>can have a muzzle velocity of 6000 m/s with a gauss weapon. Better living <BR>through magnetism, I say/<BR><BR>This was designed a couple of years back as the TL-14 version of a TL-13 <BR>Solomani weapon I whipped up. It uses the maximum possible velocity, and a 5mm <BR>dart because anything bigger would've given more than 300m as the short range, <BR>as thus been a waste. It was designed using FFS1 for TNE. If my understanding <BR>of FFS2 is correct (I don't own it) the damage should by multiplied by 1.43 to <BR>get T4 figures (giving about a 13 for the dart).<BR><BR>RGSL-14 Sniper Rifle<BR><BR>Weapon Details <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tech Level: 14 <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Ammo : 5x25mm/60 gauss dart <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Muzzle Energy: 17640 J <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Weapon Length: 108.5 cm, 88.5 cm folded <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Weapon Weight: 15.83 kg loaded, 13.538 kg empty, with no magazine <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Weapon Price: 3412 Cr <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Magazine Weight: 2.292 kg loaded, 2.272 kg empty <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Magazine Price: Cr5 (20-round box) <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Ammo Price: Cr0.02 (Dart), Cr0.04 (HE, Tranq), Cr0.06 (HEAP) <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Ammo Weight: 0.98 grams per round <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Features: Plastic stock, electronic sight, bipod, folding shock absorber, <BR>gyroscopic compensator <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Recoil<BR>Ammo&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ROF Dam Pen&nbsp;&nbsp; Bulk Mag SS Burst SR<BR>5x25mm Dart&nbsp; SA5 9&nbsp;&nbsp; 1-2-4 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; 1&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 230 (213) <BR>w/ Bipod&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SA5 9&nbsp;&nbsp; 1-2-4 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; 0&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 300 (276)<BR>5x25mm HE&nbsp; &nbsp; SA5 9&nbsp;&nbsp; Nil&nbsp;&nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; 1&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 170 (159)<BR>w/ Bipod&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SA5 9&nbsp;&nbsp; Nil&nbsp;&nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; 0&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 220 (207)<BR>5x25mm HEAP&nbsp; SA5 9&nbsp;&nbsp; 2-2-2 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; 1&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 170 (159)<BR>w/ Bipod&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SA5 9&nbsp;&nbsp; 2-2-2 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; 0&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 220 (207)<BR>5x25mm Tranq SA5 -1* Nil&nbsp;&nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; 1&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 30 (30)<BR>w/ Bipod&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SA5 -1* Nil&nbsp;&nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; 0&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 30 (30)<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:19:45 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR><BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR><BR>&gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt; &gt; The way to play baseball or another sport on the interstellar<BR>&gt; &gt; level would be to get a surplus K'Kree ship that is just one<BR>&gt; &gt; big compartment, set up that compartment as a playing field,<BR>&gt; &gt; and jump it around between planets. The ship would maintain<BR>&gt; &gt; a constant standard gravity, pressure, etc. <BR>&gt; &gt; If the sport in question is popular enough you might even be able<BR>&gt; &gt; to justify the costs but it might be better to gloss over the economics <BR>&gt; &gt; involved.<BR><BR>&gt; It'd be much simpler to either build an orbital station, or even build<BR>&gt; stadium with pressure and gravity control, and let the players travel<BR>&gt; by regular ships.<BR><BR>1) What about practice space?<BR><BR>2) That would restrict the league to worlds that could afford their <BR>own stadiums, unless sponsors pay for this sort of thing. A traveling <BR>stadium, even though much more expensive as a whole, might impose<BR>fewer costs on sports league member worlds.<BR><BR>OTOH maybe worlds don't have anything to do with it and the teams<BR>are sponsored by companies. Instead of the 'Regina Drop Commando's'<BR>versus the 'Durendal Vikings' maybe it should be the 'Instellarms<BR>Commando's' versus the 'Susag Drug Warriors'. If the team is sponsored<BR>by the company then the ship comes out of the ad budget.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:56:08 -0500<BR>From: "Greenly, Jeff" &lt;greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Allen Steele<BR><BR>Fellow 'Listers<BR><BR>Kiri brings up one of my favorite hard SF authors. Allen Steele's writing is<BR>gritty, hard-edged, realistic, funny, and flavors my Traveller Universe<BR>throughout. I have used several of his stories and novels for campaigns, and<BR>because I love his characters, I use them frequently as NPCs and PCs. Steele<BR>postulates that the "Final Frontier" will be conquered not by spacemen in<BR>regulation uniforms, popping food caplets and listening to Strauss waltzes,<BR>but by construction workers called beamjacks and moondogs, truck drivers,<BR>pilots, Native Americans, pot-smokers, smugglers, corporate tools, and in<BR>one very memorable instance, a biker named Virgin Bruce and a shrimp<BR>fisherman named Popeye. He assumes that people will go into space not<BR>because of some idealistic crusade, but because there's a high-risk job to<BR>do that pays well and can be really monotonous at times. I highly commend<BR>this author's work to the members of the list; it will change the way you<BR>look at government and commercially-sponsored manned spaceflight, and it<BR>will change your Traveller Universe for the better. <BR><BR>Jeff<BR><BR><BR>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:41:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Allen Steele<BR><BR>I have just started reading his stuff and I really like it.&nbsp; Anyone else<BR>like it, have thoughts on its relevance to Traveller, etc?<BR><BR>Kiri<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:36:09 -0600<BR>From: "Thomas Vickers" &lt;tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: 2300AD Web Ring?<BR><BR>The 2300 Ring is dead due to the ring manager's growing frustrations with<BR>yahoo. Can't blame him.<BR><BR>http://members.tripod.com/AD2300/links.htm<BR>This should have all the old webring links here.<BR>I tried to get them all right.<BR><BR>Thomas<BR>______________________________________________<BR>And the moral of the story is to never lean on the weird. Or they will chop<BR>your head off. And perverts will eat your brains.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; H.S. Thompson<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: traveller@lists.ient.com [mailto:traveller@lists.ient.com]<BR>Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 9:27 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: 2300AD Web Ring?<BR><BR><BR>That's the one! thank you<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Ask and ye shall receive. Unless there are two<BR>&gt;&gt; 2300AD-related rotational<BR>&gt;&gt; habitat calculators out there, you're looking for:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; http://www.bumply.com/2300/astro.htm<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Cheers,<BR>&gt;&gt; Paul Drye<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt;&gt; Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at<BR>&gt;&gt; http://www.hotmail.com.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>"I don't know much about what I like, but I do know Art."&nbsp; &nbsp; me @ the<BR>Rijksmuseum,<BR>Amsterdam (Terra/Sol 3)http://prattfall.tripod.com/index.html<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.<BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:59:21 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Okay, I'm back at my studies and busy with my maintaince of HGS. But <BR>this semester I'm learning yet another language (looks around furtively and <BR>whispers "Visual Basic" hoping no "real" programmers hear) and I found <BR>with Delphi that I learnt far more from creating HGS than any of the <BR>lessons, so I've decided to do a small project for VB. So the question is, <BR>what would people like?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 02:04:27 -0600<BR>From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions<BR><BR>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; When you say "reduce your difficulty" do you also imply "use less dice on<BR>&gt; the Task Throw - it gives more chance of Greater Success"?<BR><BR>No.&nbsp; "Reduce Difficulty" means to use a negative modifier to the difficulty<BR>throw.<BR><BR>Thus, if Jacks (Str-5) were to make an Average attribute check, the roll would<BR>be:<BR><BR>Jacks rolls 1D (the E-Die) vs the GM's Average difficulty throw of 2D - 5.<BR><BR>See...the "5" for Jacks' Str reduces the difficulty.&nbsp; It makes it easier for<BR>Jacks to accomplish the task, and it makes it more likely that Jacks will throw<BR>Greater Success.<BR><BR>Kenneth.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 02:04:24 -0600<BR>From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions<BR><BR>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Dear Kenneth -<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; On e more thing I forgot to ask - when will the final version be written<BR>&gt; up, and are you planning to put it on the Web as well as the TML?<BR><BR>The KB3 Task system is just about finished.&nbsp; The problem, though, is<BR>three-fold.<BR><BR>(1)&nbsp; I don't have it written up in any clear manner (although it's a simple<BR>system--just needs several words to explain all the outcomes of a single<BR>dice throw).<BR><BR>(2)&nbsp; Me and my players have switched gears (as we are prone to do).&nbsp; We were<BR>re-starting our Traveller campaign, but, instead, we've picked up the old<BR>James Bond RPG (and having a BLAST!&nbsp; That's a fun frickin' game!).<BR><BR>(3)&nbsp; Since we did not play Traveller (we may in the future), KB3 did not get<BR>play tested.&nbsp; Although I'm very confident that it is a good system and that<BR>it's pretty much completed, I'm also a big believer in play testing.&nbsp; I know<BR>the statistics are good with KB3, but it takes a few good game sessions to<BR>make sure there is nothing "awkward" or "wrong" with a game system's logic.<BR><BR>I'd like to play-test KB3 before I release it to the public, and, to be<BR>honest, I'm not sure when my group will get around to playing Traveller<BR>again.<BR><BR>We're having such a good time with our Bond game, it may be some time.<BR><BR>Than again...you never know...we could all of a sudden tire from Bond and<BR>pick Traveller up again, right where we left off.<BR><BR>If you have other questions about KB3, I'll be glad to answer them.&nbsp; I don't<BR>have the system all written up in a short, concise manner (Hemmingway was<BR>right when he said he sometimes did not have enough time to write things<BR>"short"), but I am confident that it is a complete, finished system (with<BR>the provisions listed above).<BR><BR>If you want me to show you how to drop KB3 into your game, I will.&nbsp; You'll<BR>have to tell me which Traveller system of rules you are using, and I'll show<BR>you how best to use KB3.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Kenneth.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 02:04:32 -0600<BR>From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions<BR><BR>OK, last example....<BR><BR>Here's the KB3 difficulty chart for easy reference.<BR><BR>Difficulty Table<BR>- -----------------------------<BR>3+&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Easy<BR>7+&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Average<BR>11+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Difficult<BR>15+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 4D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Formidable<BR>19+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 5D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Staggering<BR>23+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 6D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Impossible<BR><BR>And, here's the Combat Chart<BR><BR>Fire Combat Difficulty Table....<BR>- ------------------------------------<BR>1D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Easy&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Contact&nbsp; 0-3m<BR>2D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Average&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; V. Short&nbsp; 4-15m<BR>3D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Difficult&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Short&nbsp; 16-45m<BR>4D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Formidable&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Medium&nbsp; 46-150m<BR>5D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Staggering&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Long&nbsp; 151-450m<BR>6D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Impossible&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; V. Long&nbsp; 451-1500m<BR><BR>(Information in the previous e-mail is necessary to follow some of these<BR>examples--you'll need to know what the KB3 skill options do and what the E-Die<BR>does.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>KB3 EXAMPLE #4<BR>Ren (Str 6, Brawling-4) is fighting Perrol (Str 10, Brawling-2) in hand to hand<BR>combat.&nbsp; In this case, you don't use the task chart.&nbsp; The defender rolls his<BR>skill for the difficulty.<BR><BR>So...<BR><BR>Ren decides to throw most of what he's got at Perrol--but he'll use 1 point to<BR>reduce Perrol's total as a skill option.&nbsp; Ren will throw 4D.<BR><BR>Perrol is defending the blow (Ren will attack, and then Perrol will throw to<BR>defend himself....then it will be Perrol's turn to attack, and Ren will have to<BR>defend himself).&nbsp; And, Perrol decides that he needs everything to defend<BR>himself.&nbsp; He will use no skill options, throwing 3D in his defense.<BR><BR>So, the throw is...<BR><BR>Ren throws 4D vs Perrol's 3D - 1.<BR><BR>Ren throws, getting a total of "9".&nbsp; Perrol throws, subtracts the "1", and gets<BR>a total of "10".<BR><BR>Perrol has defended the blow!&nbsp; And, not only that, but Perrol has rolled<BR>Greater Success with his defense roll, so the GM rules that Perrol actually<BR>damaged Ren while defending himself.&nbsp; 1D damage is rolled on Ren.<BR><BR>Now, it's Perrol's turn to act in the round....<BR><BR>Here were the possible outcomes for Perrol, the defender in this fight.<BR><BR>Roll<BR>- ----<BR>0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Automatic Success for Ren.&nbsp; Damage rolled on Perrol.<BR><BR>- ---&nbsp;&nbsp; Greater Failure on defense not possible on this particular roll (but<BR>could be possible if Ren had rolled higher).<BR><BR>1-9&nbsp; Regular Failure (ties go to the person attempting the task--which in this<BR>case was Ren).<BR><BR>10&nbsp; Greater Success only possible on a "10"<BR><BR>11-19&nbsp; Regular Success for Perrol.<BR><BR>20+&nbsp; Marginal Success for Perrol.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 02:04:36 -0600<BR>From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: More KB3 Examples<BR><BR>Here's a third example for David and you guys following the KB3 task system<BR>thread.<BR><BR>Here's the KB3 difficulty chart for easy reference.<BR><BR>Difficulty Table<BR>- -----------------------------<BR>3+&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Easy<BR>7+&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Average<BR>11+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Difficult<BR>15+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 4D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Formidable<BR>19+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 5D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Staggering<BR>23+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 6D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Impossible<BR><BR>And, here's the Combat Chart<BR><BR>Fire Combat Difficulty Table....<BR>- ------------------------------------<BR>1D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Easy&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Contact&nbsp; 0-3m<BR>2D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Average&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; V. Short&nbsp; 4-15m<BR>3D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Difficult&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Short&nbsp; 16-45m<BR>4D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Formidable&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Medium&nbsp; 46-150m<BR>5D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Staggering&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Long&nbsp; 151-450m<BR>6D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Impossible&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; V. Long&nbsp; 451-1500m<BR><BR>(Information in the previous e-mail is necessary to follow some of these<BR>examples--you'll need to know what the KB3 skill options do and what the E-Die<BR>does.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>KB3 EXAMPLE #3<BR>Vaan Preygor (Str 8, Dex 5) is standing on a ledge when an explosion rocks the<BR>area nearby.&nbsp; The GM rules that Vaan may be pushed back, over the ledge, and<BR>into the pit from the blast of the explosion.<BR><BR>The GM rules that this is an attribute check to resist the blast and stay on<BR>his feet, and the GM says that Vaan can use either his Str or his Dex<BR>(whichever is higher) to make the check.<BR><BR>As for the difficulty of the throw, the GM is not going to use the standard<BR>task difficulties above.&nbsp; Instead, he's going to use the strength of the<BR>blast--by rolling damage done by the blast.&nbsp;&nbsp; At this range, the blast will do<BR>3D damage.<BR><BR>Vaan does not have a skill to help him stay on his feet (I'd let him use<BR>Athletics, if he had the skill, in my game), so this is a Default skill roll.<BR>Vaan can attempt it at 1D (the E-Die).&nbsp; And, since this is an attribute check,<BR>a -8 modifier will be applied to the difficulty throw.<BR><BR>So, the throw is:<BR><BR>Vaan's 1D vs 3D-8.<BR><BR>Vaan throws 1D and gets a "5".<BR><BR>The GM throws 3D and gets a "1" on the E-Die.&nbsp; All odd die are removed from the<BR>total.&nbsp; The remaining die shows a "4", and this is reduced by 8 points (because<BR>it is an attribute throw).<BR><BR>The difficulty actually is reduced to 0....so it is an Automatic Success for<BR>Vaan to stay on his feet and keep from being blown over the side of the ledge.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 02:04:41 -0600<BR>From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions<BR><BR>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; So, in the following cases:<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - when a successful Task Throw is _equal_ to Diff Throw + Stat, is it<BR>&gt; &gt;standard or marginal success?<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - when a failed Task Throw is _equal_ to Diff Throw - Stat, is it a<BR>&gt; &gt;regular or greater failure?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; ...the answers are "standard success" and "regular failure", respectively?<BR><BR>I see where you are finding confusion.&nbsp; Let me clear this up for you.<BR><BR>Whenever you roll a success, and your success roll is equal to or less than the<BR>Difficulty + Stat, then you've got a regular Success.<BR><BR>So, if Jimmy has a Dex-9, Pistol-2, and he throws his 3D6 getting a total of<BR>7.....and the difficulty throw is a total of 5, this is a regular Success.<BR><BR>Why?<BR><BR>Because (A) Jimmy's task throw was higher than the difficulty throw (his throw<BR>of 7 beat the difficulty throw of 5) AND the total of 7 IS LESS THAN the<BR>difficulty plus his stat.<BR><BR>Regular Success will occur whenever the task throw falls in the range of<BR>difficulty plus stat.&nbsp; In this case, Jimmy's regular success range is 5-14.<BR>Any roll that falls within that range (and is a successful roll because it was<BR>higher than the difficulty) is a regular Success.<BR><BR>Any successful task roll that is ABOVE that range is a Marginal Success.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Now...<BR><BR>Where you're getting confused is in defining Greater Success rolls (these are<BR>like rolling natural 20's in the D&amp;D game--or all "1's" for Spectacular Success<BR>in the T4 rules set).<BR><BR>The Greater Success range can be A PART of the regular Success range (but not<BR>necessarily so--Greater Success could also be not possible on a particular<BR>roll).<BR><BR>Greater Success occurs anytime a successful roll is equal to or less than a<BR>character's Stat.&nbsp; This means that (A) the roll has to be successful (by being<BR>higher than the difficulty roll) and (B) it has to be lower than the Stat AT<BR>THE SAME TIME.<BR><BR>In the roll above (on that particular stat), Jimmy's possible outcomes would<BR>look like this:&nbsp; (remember that Jimmy has Dex-9, Pistol-2.&nbsp; his roll was 7.<BR>and the difficulty was 5)<BR><BR>*Greater Failure is not possible on this roll because Jimmy cannot roll lower<BR>than 5 - 7.&nbsp; All Failures will be regular Failures on this roll.<BR><BR>*Any total that is 0-4 will be a regular Failure.<BR><BR>*Any total that is 5-9 will be a Greater Success.<BR><BR>*Any total that is 10+ will be a Marginal Success.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Let me give you a couple more examples of KB3.&nbsp; Remember that it is a simple<BR>system.&nbsp; You roll for the task roll once, and you roll for difficulty.&nbsp; After<BR>that, you're just comparing totals (you're not making any other dice rolls, and<BR>all of these outcomes are possible on the single task attempt--a single roll<BR>for the player--and a single roll for the GM).<BR><BR>Here's the Difficulty Chart for easy reference when following the examples<BR>below.<BR><BR>Difficulty Table<BR>- -----------------------------<BR>3+&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Easy<BR>7+&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Average<BR>11+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Difficult<BR>15+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 4D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Formidable<BR>19+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 5D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Staggering<BR>23+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 6D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Impossible<BR><BR><BR><BR>KB3&nbsp; EXAMPLE #1:<BR>Piter has Piloting-3, Edu 10.&nbsp; He attempts to dock with an abandoned<BR>spacecraft the crew found.&nbsp; The GM rules this is an Easy task for Piter to do.<BR><BR>Piter is up against 1D difficulty, and he could roll 4D if he wanted to.&nbsp; But,<BR>that would be overkill on the task (and it woud skew his results torwards<BR>Marginal Success), so Piter chooses to use a skill option.<BR><BR>What's a skill option?<BR><BR>A skill option allows you to use your character's skill level for one of three<BR>things.<BR><BR>(A)&nbsp; You can use your skills to add dice to the task throw.&nbsp; You already get to<BR>throw 1D (the E-Die).&nbsp; Using this option will allow you to throw 2D or more).<BR>So Piter could throw 1D (just the E-Die), and use his 3 points of skill in<BR>Piloting for one of the other options.&nbsp; Or, he could max out his throw, using<BR>all his skill points to add dice to the throw--in this case he would throw 4D<BR>on his attempt.&nbsp; Or, he could use some other combination.<BR><BR>(B)&nbsp; You can use your skills to REDUCE your difficulty--making it EASIER for<BR>you to achieve success.&nbsp; So, Piter could throw 1D on the task and apply a<BR>penalty of -3 to the difficulty throw, reducing Piter's difficulty (making it<BR>more likely that Piter will succeed on the throw).&nbsp; Or, he could do some<BR>combination with the other skill options.<BR><BR>(C),&nbsp; And, lastly, you can use your skills to INCREASE your governing stat for<BR>measuring purposes.&nbsp; If it was VERY important to Piter to throw GREATER SUCCESS<BR>on his Piloting task, he might use his 3 points of skill to increase his stat<BR>to 13 (meaning that any successful throw of 13 or less is a Greater Success<BR>rather than a successful throw of 10 or less)...or some other combination with<BR>the other two skill options.<BR><BR>On this throw, since the difficulty is so low (only 1D), Piter decides to throw<BR>2D (his E-Die and 1 point of skill), using his other 2 points as a skill option<BR>to reduce the difficulty.<BR><BR>So, the throw will be...<BR><BR>...Piter will throw 2D vs the GM's throw of 1D-2.<BR><BR>Did you follow all of that?<BR><BR>If you've got it, let's look at a possible result of this throw.&nbsp; Piter throws<BR>his task.&nbsp; His total is 7.&nbsp; The GM throws, and the 1D turns out to be a "6",<BR>which means (since it is the E-Die) that it is doubled to a total of "12".<BR>But, then we subtract the -2 modifier imposed by Piter's skill option.<BR><BR>In the end, Piter's roll is 7, and the difficulty throw is 10.&nbsp; Piter rolled a<BR>regular Failure.&nbsp; The ship didn't line up, and he'll have to circle around and<BR>try it again (on a Greater Failure, the GM may have said the ship was damaged<BR>in the attempt!)<BR><BR>On this roll, these results were possible:<BR><BR>Roll<BR>- ----<BR>0&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Automatic Failure could occur if the E-Die reduces Piter's roll to "0".<BR>Automatic Failure usually means a Mishap or Fumble occured.<BR><BR>- ---&nbsp; &nbsp; Greater Failure not possible on this throw (10 - 10 = 0).<BR><BR>1-9&nbsp;&nbsp; Regular Failure range.<BR><BR>10&nbsp; &nbsp; Greater Success possible only on a 10 (successful throw that is less than<BR>or equal to the governing stat).<BR><BR>11-20&nbsp; Regular Success range.<BR><BR>21+&nbsp; Marginal Success range.<BR><BR><BR><BR>This e-mail is getting long, so I'll post some more examples in another post.<BR><BR>Kenneth.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3746<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (rly-zb01.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.1]) by air-zb04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 03:09:00 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 03:08:38 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id DAA52561;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 03:08:04 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 26 Feb 2001 03:07:46 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id DAA52431<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 03:07:46 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 03:07:46 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102260807.DAA52431@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3746<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, February 26 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3747<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: More KB3 Examples<BR>Re: TML FAQ, HGDSS, FFS Equations and Sign-Off<BR>RE: 2300AD Web Ring?<BR>RE: world series<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>RealLife(tm) Kinetic Kill Railguns<BR>RE: System defenses<BR>RE: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long<BR>Re: RE: 2300AD Web Ring?<BR>RE: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR>Re: What could go wrong?<BR>RE : Indefinite Life Span<BR>RE: world series<BR>Re: RE : Indefinite Life Span<BR>Re: RE : Indefinite Life Span<BR>RE: [Website Review] <BR>Re: MST3K<BR>writing programs..<BR>Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 02:04:47 -0600<BR>From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: More KB3 Examples<BR><BR>I am posting more KB3 examples of task throws here for David (and anyone else<BR>following this thread).&nbsp; The other e-mail was getting a little too long winded.<BR><BR>Here's the KB3 difficulty chart for easy reference.<BR><BR>Difficulty Table<BR>- -----------------------------<BR>3+&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Easy<BR>7+&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Average<BR>11+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Difficult<BR>15+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 4D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Formidable<BR>19+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 5D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Staggering<BR>23+&nbsp;&nbsp; or&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 6D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Impossible<BR><BR>And, here's the Combat Chart<BR><BR>Fire Combat Difficulty Table....<BR>- ------------------------------------<BR>1D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Easy&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Contact&nbsp; 0-3m<BR>2D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Average&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; V. Short&nbsp; 4-15m<BR>3D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Difficult&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Short&nbsp; 16-45m<BR>4D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Formidable&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Medium&nbsp; 46-150m<BR>5D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Staggering&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Long&nbsp; 151-450m<BR>6D&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Impossible&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; V. Long&nbsp; 451-1500m<BR><BR>And, here's additional examples to follow, if you're learning KB3.<BR>(Information in the previous e-mail is necessary to follow some of these<BR>examples--you'll need to know what the KB3 skill options do and what the E-Die<BR>does.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>KB EXAMPLE #2<BR>John (Dex-4, Pistol-4) is shooting at a boarder standing 10m away (It's an<BR>Average task--see combat chart above).<BR><BR>John knows that there is little hope of throwing Greater Success on his<BR>shot--(one of the things the KB3 system does really, really well is penalize<BR>characters with low stats in this manner--as they should be penalized!&nbsp; Stat's<BR>are important!&nbsp; And, low stats should concern players!)<BR><BR>So, John decides use all but one skill point to increase the number of dice he<BR>throws and thus ensure he hits--regardless if it is a regular Success or a<BR>Marginal Success.&nbsp; He'll use the remaining point of skill to increase his Stat,<BR>increasing his ranges for Greater and regular Success.<BR><BR>Having made these decisions about the throw, John throws 4D (and his Dex is<BR>considered a 5 for measuring purposes).&nbsp; A "1" on the E-Die pops up, so every<BR>odd number die is not counted in the throw.&nbsp; John's total is "4".<BR><BR>The GM throws the 2D difficulty, resulting in a total of "3".<BR><BR>John hits!&nbsp; But, believe it or not, he got really, really lucky and rolled<BR>Greater Success!&nbsp; The GM allows him to throw an extra die of damage (because he<BR>threw Greater Success).<BR><BR>The possible outcomes on this throw are:<BR><BR>Roll<BR>- ----<BR>0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Automatic Failure could occur if the E-Die reduced John's task roll to<BR>"0".&nbsp; Automatic Failure usually means a Fumble or Mishap occurred.<BR><BR>- ---&nbsp; &nbsp; Greater Failure is not possible.<BR><BR>1-2&nbsp; Regular Failure results in this range.<BR><BR>3-5&nbsp; Greater Success results in this range.<BR><BR>6+&nbsp; Marginal Success results in this range.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:47:37 +0100<BR>From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TML FAQ, HGDSS, FFS Equations and Sign-Off<BR><BR>"Stuart C. Squibb" wrote:<BR>&gt; Real Life has meant that I have been unable to devote any<BR>&gt; significant time to traveller over the last 12 months or so. As a<BR>&gt; result of this I have taken the decision to end my various<BR>&gt; traveller mailing-list subscriptions and take down my Traveller<BR>&gt; web site.<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller<BR><BR>:-(<BR><BR>It's (almost) always a sad thing when people leave us for one reason and<BR>another.<BR><BR>&gt; Keep the Flame,<BR><BR>We will. Come back to visit us some day.<BR><BR>Good bye... for now.<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:52:45 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: 2300AD Web Ring?<BR><BR>On 25 Feb 2001, at 22:36, Thomas Vickers wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The 2300 Ring is dead due to the ring manager's growing frustrations with<BR>&gt; yahoo. Can't blame him.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; http://members.tripod.com/AD2300/links.htm<BR>&gt; This should have all the old webring links here.<BR>&gt; I tried to get them all right.<BR><BR>Um. Your site seems to list them by their webring id's, so the links don't <BR>work. :(<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:52:45 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>On 26 Feb 2001, at 17:12, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Rupert Boleyn wrote :<BR>&gt; &gt; On 25 Feb 2001, at 1:11, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Frank, let me disassociate myself from Larson's comments in this<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; case.&nbsp; This American thinks that Soccer, as we call it here, is a<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; fine game filled with strategy and drama and played by skilled<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; athletes.&nbsp; I enjoy Aussie football and Rugby when I get a chance to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; see them, too.&nbsp; If I had seen more than a few seconds of cricket I'm<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; sure I'd judge it a fine game as well. &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; We call it soccer here, too (usually, that is). Football or<BR>&gt; &gt; "footie" means rugby.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Speak for yourself.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; When I say "football" I mean football, not that johnny-come-lately game that was<BR>&gt; invented by a bunch of idiots at Rugby who didn't understand the "no hands" rule<BR>&gt; of _foot_ball. &lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>It's people like you who caused that "usually" to be inserted. :) I generally <BR>talk about "soccer" and "rugby" to avoid confusion.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:37:14 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>&gt; Okay, I'm back at my studies and busy with my maintaince of HGS.<BR>&gt; But this semester I'm learning yet another language (looks around<BR>&gt; furtively and whispers "Visual Basic" hoping no "real" programmers<BR>&gt; hear) and I found with Delphi that I learnt far more from creating<BR>&gt; HGS than any of the lessons, so I've decided to do a small project<BR>&gt; for VB. So the question is, what would people like?<BR><BR>My vote is for an MT vehicle creator ... as easy as Infini-V&nbsp; but<BR>for the PC ... with the Wet Navy and Low&nbsp; Tech&nbsp; add-ons&nbsp; ...&nbsp; and<BR>please please please with the COACC stuff.<BR><BR>(So far, no one seems to have noticed that the design of&nbsp; fighter<BR>aircraft on my Yori Landgrab is broken.&nbsp; Shh, don't tell anyone!)<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 07:08:58 -0600<BR>From: "D. Smart" &lt;dsmart@imagin.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RealLife(tm) Kinetic Kill Railguns<BR><BR>Found the following on the UniSci site. Thought the last<BR>line was kinda interesting. The full story can be found<BR>at:<BR>http://unisci.com/stories/20011/0226012.htm<BR><BR>Fastest Gun In The West Outdoes Nuclear Explosion<BR><BR>A magnetic field that accelerates pellets faster than<BR>anything except a<BR>nuclear explosion has been developed experimentally at the<BR>Department of<BR>Energy's Sandia National Laboratories.<BR><BR>The machine that generates the field has been jokingly<BR>dubbed "the fastest<BR>gun in the West," but the description is an understatement..<BR><BR>..The propulsion speed of 20 km/sec -- almost three times<BR>that necessary to<BR>escape the gravitational pull of the Earth (about 7 km/sec)<BR>- -- would send<BR>material from New York to Boston in half a minute, and from<BR>Albuquerque to<BR>Santa Fe in a few seconds. A rifle bullet is typically<BR>propelled at 1 km/sec.<BR><BR>The machine, Sandia's Z accelerator, currently propels<BR>dime-sized pellets<BR>called flyer plates only a few hundred millimeters to gain<BR>information on the<BR>effect of high-velocity impacts..<BR><BR>..The technique also has potential as a hypervelocity<BR>"kinetic kill" weapon<BR>that, emanating from a lighter, more mobile source than the<BR>huge Z<BR>machine, still could strike disabling blows through an<BR>adversary's heavy<BR>armor. These more mobile sources are already in<BR>development...<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:17:15 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: System defenses<BR><BR>Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>&gt; I use a factionalised model of the Ine Givar, particularly after<BR>&gt; the 5FW,<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; Hmm.&nbsp; A better analogy for the Ine Givar might be the PLO.&nbsp; But<BR>&gt; that's a nationalist movement, which doesn't quite fit the IG.<BR>&gt; Perhaps it might be better to think of them as being the<BR>&gt; equivalent of some of the factions within the PLO.<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; If the IG are complete puppets of the Zhodani, they will, of<BR>&gt; course, fail.<BR><BR>IMTU the IG were always factionalised.&nbsp; This is&nbsp; because&nbsp; the&nbsp; IG<BR>would exploit local dissention&nbsp; (which&nbsp; is&nbsp; often&nbsp; nationalistic)<BR>when recruiting.&nbsp; Thus the IG could be seen&nbsp; as&nbsp; an&nbsp; alliance&nbsp; of<BR>local pro-nationalistic movements (including both insurrectionist<BR>militias and terrorists) rather than a&nbsp; coherant&nbsp; force.&nbsp; Zhodani<BR>involvement is limited primarily to covert aid (a&nbsp; bit&nbsp; like&nbsp; the<BR>French in the US Independance War).<BR><BR>(But then IMTU the IG are not like AMV's description ... mine&nbsp; is<BR>much smaller, mainly operating in just the coreward half&nbsp; of&nbsp; the<BR>Spinward Marches.&nbsp; I liked AMV's description, it just didn't&nbsp; fit<BR>my view.)<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:31:15 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long<BR><BR>Ethan Henry wrote:<BR>&gt; Someone wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; This is a twisted trade war going on right now between<BR>&gt; &gt; manufacturers and UK consumers.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ah-ha. Wierd. How on earth does something like this perpetuate<BR>&gt; itself?&nbsp; You would think this kind of thing would self-correct<BR>&gt; in the supposedly "free market". I don't see any external factors<BR>&gt; making a UK operation any intrinsically more expensive than any<BR>&gt; other...<BR><BR>Its only with the relatively recent arrival of the internet&nbsp; that<BR>the UK public&nbsp; have&nbsp; widespread&nbsp; access&nbsp; to&nbsp; the&nbsp; "gray&nbsp; market".<BR>Before now this access was limited and so corporations could more<BR>or less set prices how they like.&nbsp; It&nbsp; was&nbsp; probably&nbsp; seeing&nbsp; the<BR>explosion&nbsp; of&nbsp; international&nbsp; sales&nbsp; in&nbsp; CDs&nbsp; that&nbsp; prompted&nbsp; the<BR>inclusion of region coding on DVDs (which IIRC delayed the public<BR>launch of the DVD format by a year).&nbsp; The&nbsp; US&nbsp; government's&nbsp; pro-<BR>crime stance on encryption technology didn't help in the&nbsp; initial<BR>formation of trust between consumer and vendor&nbsp; on&nbsp; the&nbsp; internet<BR>either.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:01:46 -0600<BR>From: "Thomas Vickers" &lt;tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: RE: 2300AD Web Ring?<BR><BR>Thanks for the warning.<BR>So much for updating my webpage in the wee hours of the morning.<BR>I wil have the real links page up tonight.<BR>I don't even think I sent the correct html home from work before I did the<BR>update.<BR>Stupid boy.<BR><BR>TV<BR>_______________________________________<BR>We're not just going th shoot the bastards. We are going to cut out their<BR>living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. WE are going to<BR>murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; George C. Scott (Patton)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:47:27 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Steve<BR>&gt; (Bloo) Daniels<BR>&gt; Sent: 23 February 2001 16:08<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The original poster said that in the U.S. the phrase "Dungeons<BR>&gt; &amp; Dragons" is protected by US copyright law, but is protected<BR>&gt; by trademark law (and not copyright law) in Europe.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; That statement is incorrect.<BR>&gt;<BR>I am surprised to hear that - although I admit that I got the quote<BR>from a magazine, not a legal ruling. Could you let me know what the<BR>situation actually is?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:54:46 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Hello Andrew,<BR>&nbsp; Don't feel like you are in the Minority with Visual Basic.&nbsp; I've been<BR>learning to use Visual Basic for my own FAR TRADER project, and once I<BR>either get bored with FAR TRADER, or I finish getting the minimal aspects I<BR>wanted for the program, I will likely start looking at the idea of creating<BR>a FIRST IN program as well.&nbsp; Right now, I'm working on the hexagon creation<BR>problem.&nbsp; I've already created a program to test the concept of distance<BR>calculations based on a starting hex ID and an Ending Hex id.&nbsp; It's not<BR>pretty programming &lt;grin&gt;, but it is successful at what it was intended to<BR>do...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:08:51 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>I would like to see a merchant program. One where i give it a bit of info on<BR>the world (ie.. tech level industrial ect..) and it shoots back what cargos<BR>are available, cost of cargo (or if the cargo owner is just paying<BR>shipping), and size of cargos.<BR><BR>something like that would be good.<BR><BR>anyway<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance [mailto:a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz]<BR>Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 9:59 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: New Traveller software project<BR><BR><BR>Okay, I'm back at my studies and busy with my maintaince of HGS. But <BR>this semester I'm learning yet another language (looks around furtively and <BR>whispers "Visual Basic" hoping no "real" programmers hear) and I found <BR>with Delphi that I learnt far more from creating HGS than any of the <BR>lessons, so I've decided to do a small project for VB. So the question is, <BR>what would people like?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:20:57 +0000<BR>From: Dominic Mooney &lt;dom@cybergoths.u-net.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE<BR><BR>At 15:44 -0500 18/2/01,&nbsp; "Chris Seamans" &lt;semo@pil.net&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;Larsen (aka Mr. Whipsnade) wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you so much for filling in for my spotty memory.&nbsp; I fear my<BR>&gt; &gt;little grey cells are retiring well before the rest of my body. (sigh)&nbsp; The<BR>&gt; &gt;title "Flashing Blades" didn't ring a bell with me though.&nbsp; Of course it<BR>&gt;has<BR>&gt; &gt;been 20+ years and there is my aforementioned weary grey cells.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Are you thinking of, perhaps, "En Garde"? I've only heard mention of it,<BR>&gt;I've never seen it or held it or anything, but it seems to be pretty close<BR>&gt;to what you're describing.<BR><BR>Probably - AFAIK Small Furry Creatures Press still has a copy in <BR>print. _En Garde_ was the GDW game. ISTR that _Flashing Blades_ is an <BR>FGU game and may still be available directly from <BR>http://www.fantasygamesunlimited.com/ probably at the original price!!<BR><BR>Dom<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:36:09 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Gee! WHY does that sound so realistic, with a detailed repair<BR>&gt;&gt; diagnosis?&nbsp; Must have driven you NUTS 'till you found it,<BR>&gt;&gt; Charles...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bruce and Terry, you know I'm reading all this don't you? &lt;g&gt;&nbsp; The old _Mae Lee_ already has some quirks and after all she's been through she might have acquired a few more. &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;Sigh&gt;Of course I know you were reading it...I was half expecting to have some weird noise start up on the _Random Walk_ just to keep things interesting.<BR><BR>(The _Walk_ is the _Mae Lee's_ ships boat.) <BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:30:24 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE : Indefinite Life Span<BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>&gt;I'm fairly sure I saw a study of developed nations that showed that for a<BR>given <BR>&gt;average income the country with the greatest wealth difference had the lowest <BR>&gt;life expectancy, even in the wealthy component of its population. However it <BR>&gt;occurs to me that if they used countries with very different violent crime <BR>&gt;rates this could make the difference.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Speaking as one who has had to sift through reams of statistics:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; beware of spurious correlations.&nbsp; An example of a spurious<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; correlation is the one one between ice cream sales and incidence<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; of house fires.&nbsp; Such a correlation should not convince anyone that<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; reducing ice cream sales will reduce house fires.&nbsp; I don't know<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; what the deal is with regards to life expectencies in various Terran<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; societies, but I could imagine that in those countries where there<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; is a large gap between "rich" and "poor", education, diet and<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; medical resources tend to be lower than in other countries (even<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for the "rich".&nbsp; Thus, the gap may be correlated with various<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; factors which are themselves correlated with life expectency.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:33:26 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR><BR>&lt; a lomg snip of very interesting material&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "The major reason the rule was introduced was to make the game more<BR>interesting, as without it, a couple of attackers would _always_ sit&nbsp; up<BR>eight by the goalie, waiting for the ball to be kicked up there, and the<BR>game degenerated into a series of very long kicks followed by a goal shoot."<BR><BR>Mr. Pitt,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you for your kind response to my last post.&nbsp; Thanks to the <BR>education you gave me, I am even more firmly convinced that my inability to <BR>enjoy football (soccer) is a cultural artifact from my upbringing, rather <BR>than any rational opinion.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The situation you mention above would be excrutiating to watch as&nbsp; I <BR>believe that some sort of "man to man" coverage could not work in football.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Both baseball and football still exist IMTU.&nbsp; Baseball because of my <BR>irrational love for it and football for more rational and thought out <BR>reasons.&nbsp; As one of the posters to this thread pointed out, football only <BR>requires a ball and a sufficiently large and level place in which to play.&nbsp; <BR>Even the second requirement can be modified to a great extant.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Where ever we humans manage to settle and raise families, the sight and <BR>sounds of children happily booting a ball around will be seen.&nbsp; How could <BR>football then not flourish?<BR><BR>ObTrav:&nbsp; So far we've dealt with Solomani or Solomani derived sports in our <BR>musings.&nbsp; What sort of sports would the Vilani have played in their pre-jump <BR>drive days and which ones did they take to the stars with them?&nbsp; Being <BR>Vilani, any sort of team sports would a given.&nbsp; I'm certain that they'd play <BR>something similar to football.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:36:56 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: RE : Indefinite Life Span<BR><BR>Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>&gt; Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>&gt; &gt;I'm fairly sure I saw a study of developed nations that showed that for a<BR>&gt; given <BR>&gt; &gt;average income the country with the greatest wealth difference had the<BR>&gt; &gt;lowest&nbsp; life expectancy, even in the wealthy component of its population.<BR>&gt; &gt;However it&nbsp; occurs to me that if they used countries with very different<BR>&gt; &gt;violent crime&nbsp; rates this could make the difference.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Speaking as one who has had to sift through reams of statistics:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; beware of spurious correlations.&nbsp; An example of a spurious<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; correlation is the one one between ice cream sales and incidence<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; of house fires.&nbsp; Such a correlation should not convince anyone that<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; reducing ice cream sales will reduce house fires.&nbsp; I don't know<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; what the deal is with regards to life expectencies in various<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Terran societies, but I could imagine that in those countries<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; where there is a large gap between "rich" and "poor", education,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; diet and medical resources tend to be lower than in other countries<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (even for the "rich".&nbsp; Thus, the gap may be correlated with various<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; factors which are themselves correlated with life expectency.<BR><BR>Or, it may simply be a fairly obvious statistical effect having to do with<BR>averaging.<BR>If you assume that people who make $1,000 a year live to 50, $10,000 a year<BR>live to 60, $100,000 a year live to 70 (crude examples):<BR>Country A has everyone at 10,000 a year.&nbsp; Avg income 10k, avg livespan 60<BR>Country B has 91% at 1,000 a year, 9% at 100k.&nbsp; Avg income 10k, avg livespan 51.8.<BR><BR>Perfectly statistically accurate, but fairly obviously non-meaningful.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:41:12 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: RE : Indefinite Life Span<BR><BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "Perfectly statistically accurate, but fairly obviously <BR>non-meaningful."<BR><BR>Mr. Jackson,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Well said, sir.&nbsp; As an engineer who must deal with statistics fairly <BR>often, I am always the voice that gently reminds my colleagues and clients <BR>not to place too much faith in them.&nbsp; The more the numbers are parsed, the <BR>more iterations they are put through, the further they are divorced from <BR>reality.&nbsp; Data can only be manipulated so far and after a certain point is <BR>reached it becomes gobblygook.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; A few decades ago, I came across the "fact" of left-handed people's <BR>early mortality when compared to right-handed folks.&nbsp; Being left handed, I <BR>simply chalked it up to the universe's uncaring nature and trudged on.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; A few years afterwards, a nice young lady, who happened to be a <BR>insurance company actuary, deigned to become romantically involved with me.&nbsp; <BR>It's my usual "game plan" in these rare cases to engage the lady in <BR>conversation about herself and her work; my reasoning being that while she <BR>speaks she will not be looking at me and thus the relationship might last a <BR>while longer.&nbsp; Alas, eventually they do get a good look at me in direct <BR>sunlight and all is lost, but I digress.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I asked the young lady about left handed mortality and her response was <BR>peals of laughter.&nbsp; At first I thought she had seen me, but instead she <BR>explained how that erroneous conclusion had been reached.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; It seems the fellow who had found the correlation failed to look into <BR>it further and had published the data as fact.&nbsp; The original questionnaire <BR>had simply asked the elderly respondents as to which hand they used now, but <BR>not the hand they had used as a child.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Until a fairly recent date, most schools in the US "trained" left <BR>handed children to write, and do other things, with their right hands.&nbsp; <BR>Apparently it was believed this would make the children better "meat <BR>puppets" for our assembly lines.&nbsp; Indeed, it was done to me for a year in <BR>the 60s before the thinking behind it was changed.&nbsp; So most people in the US <BR>beyond a certain age may have been born left handed, but were trained to be <BR>right handed.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The original researcher simply believed that because so few of the <BR>elderly were left handed, that left handed people died earlier.&nbsp; He had used <BR>the numbers, but had failed to understand them.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "There are three types of falsehoods; lies, damned lies, and <BR>statistics."&nbsp; Mark Twain<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:12:24 -0000<BR>From: "Peter Scarrott" &lt;peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: [Website Review] <BR><BR>Ok you asked. :)<BR><BR>Wow, love the intro page graphic and layout.&nbsp; Immediate add to my links page<BR>just for that :)<BR><BR>Dedicated to Antony Farrell's two TNE campaigns, 1st one is a standard TNE<BR>campaign 2nd is alternative tech and timeline.&nbsp; Lots of info here for TNE<BR>players and others alike.&nbsp; plenty of interesting background to mine for all<BR>Travellers.<BR><BR>Love the site, some interesting equipment (I esp. like the lower TL(5-10)<BR>stuff).&nbsp; Interesting background, including the stargates.<BR><BR>I particularly like the Maps showing affects of Virus on starport ratings<BR>(nice background for someone developing a pocket empire of their own).<BR><BR>No 'Whats New' link?&nbsp; This is usually the first link I hit when visiting a<BR>new site.<BR><BR>Very good use of graphics btw, no slowdown and they all seem very crisp and<BR>interesting<BR><BR>Tech stuff : All pages loaded smoothly and quickly, no sluggish graphics.<BR>Colour scheme was clearly legible, though the red on black may become<BR>tiresome over time. I was viewing using IE5.5, using 1024 by 768, but on<BR>checking still very usable at 800 by 600.<BR><BR>Overall a great site.<BR><BR>- --------------start quote------------------------<BR>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:11:32 -0000<BR>From: "Antony Farrell" &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: [Website Review]<BR><BR>I have to admit I am a little disappointed, here I am about to do some more<BR>work on my website and having asked for some constructive criticism, and<BR>what response do I get.<BR>None<BR><BR>I'm just soo depressed, I may have to get work as a car park attendant.<BR><BR>If anyone wants to have a look its at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran<BR><BR>Antony<BR>- -----------------end quote------------------<BR>Lastly a quick request, Please no reviews of my site for about 2 months I am<BR>in th emiddle of a HUGE update (about&nbsp; 200 pages worth of traveller; 300<BR>pages in total) that will take me at least that long to complete.&nbsp; On the<BR>other hand please feel free to visit and mail me comments privately.&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>Peter<BR>http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav &amp; AD&amp;D)<BR>peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR><BR>IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so&nbsp; zh+<BR>vi-<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR><BR>Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.'&nbsp; He may not have one.<BR>Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:58:36 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: MST3K<BR><BR>Does anyone still have the link to the MST3k version of Dark Dungeons that <BR>was posted here a month or so ago?<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:21:50 -0700<BR>From: "A. Batishko" &lt;abatish@utah-inter.net&gt;<BR>Subject: writing programs..<BR><BR>Interesting that all these messages about writing trading programs and<BR>calculating routes recently came up. I've also been working on a program,<BR>although this will be more along the lines of a multi-player (networked),<BR>cross-platform trading game. It's based off the GURPS trading system, but<BR>uses T4 system generation (with a little T4 Pocket Empires stuff thrown in).<BR>Sounds odd, but it works well. Anyway, so I've just recently finished up my<BR>code to do shortest route calculations. I can calculate the trade routes for<BR>a single sub-sector in under a second. Performance is a little worse than<BR>N^2 though, so a 2x2 block of subsectors takes around 2 minutes. A full<BR>sector probably takes around a half-hour or so to calculate.&nbsp; :(&nbsp; I guess on<BR>the plus side, you only have to do this once, but I'm not sure I'd want to<BR>try and generate Imperium-wide trade maps without making some changes.<BR>Anyhow, just thought I'd pass this along to join the throng of programmers<BR>working on Traveller projects.<BR><BR>Andrew<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:25:51 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR><BR>Mark Preston wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Bloo said:<BR>&gt; &gt; The original poster said that in the U.S. the phrase "Dungeons<BR>&gt; &gt; &amp; Dragons" is protected by US copyright law, but is protected<BR>&gt; &gt; by trademark law (and not copyright law) in Europe.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; That statement is incorrect.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; I am surprised to hear that - although I admit that I got the quote<BR>&gt; from a magazine, not a legal ruling. Could you let me know what the<BR>&gt; situation actually is?<BR><BR>"Dungeons &amp; Dragons" is a registered trademark in the US.<BR>http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&amp;state=5roev8.3.4<BR><BR>The phrase "Dungeons &amp; Dragons" is not copyrighted, indeed,<BR>it is incapable of earning a copyright because it is not an<BR>"original work of authorship", which was the reasoning the<BR>original poster used, IIRC, albeit misapplied.&nbsp; It is the same<BR>reason that you cannot copyright a title.&nbsp; As far as copyright law<BR>is concerned, I can publish a book called "Dungeons &amp; Dragons".<BR>But it is very likely that this action, permissible by copyright,<BR>would be impermissible according to *trademark* law.<BR>Different beasts.&nbsp; Sometimes similar results.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3747<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 27 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3748<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: MST3K<BR>Re: writing programs..<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re:&nbsp; Fastest Gun etc.<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: MST3K<BR>Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR>Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR>Cricket, and all that<BR>Re: MST3K<BR>Re: Fastest Gun etc.<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Fastest Gun etc.<BR>Re: Fastest Gun etc.<BR>[Website Review] The Star Kingdom of Swan<BR>OT: statistics<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:34:05 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: MST3K<BR><BR>On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:58:36PM -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt; Does anyone still have the link to the MST3k version of Dark Dungeons that <BR>&gt; was posted here a month or so ago?<BR><BR>Sure:<BR><BR>"Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; Chick, BTW, is also the man who gave us Dark Dungeons.. read the MST3K<BR>&gt; version here:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; http://www.fecundity.com/darkdung/setup.html<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:42:06 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: writing programs..<BR><BR>A. Batishko writes:<BR><BR>&gt; up my code to do shortest route calculations. I can calculate the trade<BR>&gt; routes for a single sub-sector in under a second. Performance is a little<BR>&gt; worse than N^2 though, so a 2x2 block of subsectors takes around 2 minutes.<BR>&gt; A full sector probably takes around a half-hour or so to calculate.&nbsp; :(&nbsp; I<BR>&gt; guess on the plus side, you only have to do this once, but I'm not sure I'd<BR>&gt; want to try and generate Imperium-wide trade maps without making some<BR>&gt; changes.<BR><BR>Yes, that's fairly atrocious.&nbsp; My route generator produces a trade map for a<BR>sector in 2-5 seconds (depending on the sector), and is somewhat less than <BR>N^2 (for extremely large maps it should eventually drop to be close to O[N])<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:42:04 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Hah. Try a real gun. :) I don't believe in that crappy ETC stuff, not<BR>when you<BR>&gt;can have a muzzle velocity of 6000 m/s with a gauss weapon. Better<BR>living<BR>&gt;through magnetism, I say/<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;This was designed a couple of years back as the TL-14 version of a<BR>TL-13<BR>&gt;Solomani weapon I whipped up. It uses the maximum possible velocity,<BR>and a 5mm<BR>&gt;dart because anything bigger would've given more than 300m as the short<BR>range,<BR>&gt;as thus been a waste. It was designed using FFS1 for TNE. If my<BR>understanding<BR>&gt;of FFS2 is correct (I don't own it) the damage should by multiplied by<BR>1.43 to<BR>&gt;get T4 figures (giving about a 13 for the dart).<BR>&lt;snip nice weapon&gt;<BR><BR>Impressive weapon, but the original weapon in question was TL10 (see<BR>below) as was the 2 weapons I listed. (checking my previous post) Oops,<BR>I seem to have missed the line that showed TL.&nbsp; But TL was clearly<BR>listed on the online catolog.&nbsp; Next comment: can your sniper rifle punch<BR>holes in standard battledress of the tech level of your. Does not look<BR>like it can.&nbsp; Our sniper rifle can punch holes in TL13 battledress,<BR>which is 3 TLs ABOVE the TL of our sniper rifle.&nbsp; Could you please<BR>revise your weapon to TL10 for an honest comparison.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>&gt;The Orcrist Firearms Foundry (a division of the Spinward Marches<BR>&gt;Entertainment Group) proudly announces the first in a series of<BR>&gt;cutting edge TL 10 small arms: The 20 mm Ghost.<BR><BR>Please note that my previous post forgot to list TL of the 2 sniper<BR>rifles which is TL10.<BR><BR>Charles H<BR>President CRH Industries, LIC<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:37:35 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>Repost adding omitted data:<BR><BR>&gt;12mm ETC Light Sniper rifle.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; This rifle uses a bullpup design to maximize barrel length,<BR>&gt;semi-automatic mechinism, electronic sights, muzzle break with recoil<BR>&gt;compensation, shock absorbing stock, and bipod.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Mass 10.91kg<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Range (basic): 312 meters<BR>&gt;&nbsp; 5 round box magizine.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Slug damage: 14<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Recoil: 1<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Flash: 2<BR><BR>TL:&nbsp;&nbsp; 10<BR>Ammo:&nbsp;&nbsp; 12x40mm BETC<BR>Muzzle Energy:&nbsp;&nbsp; 24400<BR>Weapon Length:&nbsp;&nbsp; 170cm<BR>Weapon Weight:&nbsp;&nbsp; 10.9kg loaded,&nbsp;&nbsp; 10.46kg empty (no magizine)<BR>Price:&nbsp;&nbsp; 14854Cr<BR>Mag. Weight:&nbsp; .23kg<BR>Mag. Price:&nbsp;&nbsp; 2.3Cr<BR>Ammo Price:&nbsp; DS: 6.22Cr, slug: 2.49Cr, HE: 4.97Cr, HEAP:&nbsp; 6.72Cr<BR>Ammo Weight:&nbsp;&nbsp; 45.2g<BR><BR>Ammo&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Dam&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Pen&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SR<BR>12x40 DS&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 15/14/12/8&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 288<BR>w/ bipod&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 15/14/12/8&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 300(374)<BR>12x40 Slug&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 240<BR>w/ bipod&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 300(312)<BR>12x40 HE&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 180<BR>w/ bipod&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 234<BR>12x40 HEAP&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 180<BR>w/ bipod&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 234<BR><BR><BR>&gt;15mm ETC Heavy Sniper Rifle:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; This rifle uses a bullpup design to maximize barrel length,<BR>&gt;semi-automatic mechinism, electronic sights, muzzle break, and bipod.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Mass 17.04kg<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Range (basic): 358 meters<BR>&gt;&nbsp; 5 round box magizine.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Slug damage: 16<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Recoil: 2<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Flash: 2<BR><BR>TL:&nbsp;&nbsp; 10<BR>Ammo:&nbsp;&nbsp; 15x50mm BED<BR>Muzzle Energy:&nbsp;&nbsp; 42500<BR>Weapon Length:&nbsp;&nbsp; 193cm<BR>Weapon Weight:&nbsp;&nbsp; 17.04kg loaded,&nbsp;&nbsp; 16.24kg empty (no magizine)<BR>Price:&nbsp;&nbsp; 28683Cr<BR>Mag. Weight:&nbsp; .36kg<BR>Mag. Price:&nbsp;&nbsp; 3.6Cr<BR>Ammo Price:&nbsp; DS: 12.16Cr, slug: 4.86Cr, HE: 9.72Cr, HEAP:&nbsp; 14.58Cr<BR>Ammo Weight:&nbsp;&nbsp; 88.4g<BR><BR>Ammo&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Dam&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Pen&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SR<BR>15x50 DS&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 18/16/14/9&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 300(331)<BR>w/ bipod&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 18/16/14/9&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 300(430)<BR>15x50 Slug&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 276<BR>w/ bipod&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 300(359)<BR>15x50 HE&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 206<BR>w/ bipod&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 269<BR>15x50 HEAP&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 206<BR>w/ bipod&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 269<BR><BR>The HEAP round from the 15mm sniper rifle will penatrate TL14<BR>battledress.<BR><BR>&gt;We also currently have 2 antique reproductions on our reproductions<BR>page<BR>&gt;of the catolog for those who wish to appear to be antique collectors.<BR>&gt;Both of these weapons are 12.7mm caliber weapons from the early<BR>&gt;Interstellar War period.<BR><BR>both reproductions are TL8<BR><BR>See our sample catolog at<BR>http://home1.gte.net/res04u7k/Traveller/<BR><BR>Charles H<BR>President CRH Industries, LIC<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:28:40 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re:&nbsp; Fastest Gun etc.<BR><BR>&gt; Found the following on the UniSci site. Thought the last<BR>&gt;&nbsp; line was kinda interesting. The full story can be found<BR>&gt;&nbsp; at:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; http://unisci.com/stories/20011/0226012.htm<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; Fastest Gun In The West Outdoes Nuclear Explosion<BR><BR>So at what speed does the round melt from air friction?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:39:11 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>On 26 Feb 2001, at 19:42, Charles R Hensley wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Impressive weapon, but the original weapon in question was TL10 (see<BR>&gt; below) as was the 2 weapons I listed. (checking my previous post) Oops,<BR>&gt; I seem to have missed the line that showed TL.&nbsp; But TL was clearly<BR>&gt; listed on the online catolog.&nbsp; Next comment: can your sniper rifle punch<BR>&gt; holes in standard battledress of the tech level of your. Does not look<BR>&gt; like it can.&nbsp; Our sniper rifle can punch holes in TL13 battledress,<BR>&gt; which is 3 TLs ABOVE the TL of our sniper rifle.&nbsp; Could you please<BR>&gt; revise your weapon to TL10 for an honest comparison.<BR><BR>Actually it can. Standard BD of TL14 is AV8 (TNE), so it's an easy job to 600m.<BR><BR>I'll do a TL10 variant tonight, though I don't think it'll be anywhere near as <BR>impressive if I use my house-rule that gauss smallarms are limited in MV to <BR>3000 m/s at TL10, plus 1000 m/s per extra TL, up to 6000 m/s (that's how mass <BR>drivers work, so it seems reasonable). Besides, batteries are pretty crappy at <BR>TL10. Well we shall see.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:59:18 -0600<BR>From: "David C. Broussard" &lt;broussa@connecti.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>If you need/want some VB help, I can offer my sevices.&nbsp; Especially with<BR>Algorithms etc.<BR><BR>DCB<BR>David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)<BR>ICQ PIN 1259783<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of<BR>the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine<BR>philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.&nbsp; However, if you<BR>REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:28:25 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: MST3K<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:58:36 EST<BR>&gt; From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: MST3K<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Does anyone still have the link to the MST3k version of Dark Dungeons that<BR>&gt; was posted here a month or so ago?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; LKW<BR><BR>http://www.fecundity.com/darkdung/setup.html<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:30:09 -0600<BR>From: Bill Hopper &lt;whopper@pobox.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR><BR>No sense hauling 225,000 displacement tons around in jump with you when you<BR>only need it for actual games.<BR><BR>In the tradition of some modern stadiums which have movable roofs, I would<BR>suggest that the ship be a collapsible stadium.&nbsp; The field could occupy the<BR>'floor' of the ship with the stands along the sides and roof when<BR>jumping..&nbsp; The grav plates in the stands would be off.&nbsp; The team would have<BR>adequate room for 'indoor' practice during jump.When the ship arrived<BR>insystem and prepared for a game, the stands would pivot down into position<BR>and the new 'roof'&nbsp; would be comprised of a collapsible membrane which<BR>would be held up by air pressure.&nbsp; This would create a full-sized stadium<BR>for pre-game workouts and actual games.&nbsp; This is illustrated below in<BR>incredibly crude ascii art.<BR><BR><BR><BR>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; box seats<BR><BR>__________<BR>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; /<BR>\&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; \&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; /<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; /<BR>\&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; \&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; /<BR>stands<BR><BR>/_____field______\&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; \ ______field_____/<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ship in travel<BR>mode&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ship in game mode<BR><BR>The stands could have life support separate from the field so that the fans<BR>could have the atmosphere and gravity that they are accustomed to while the<BR>field was kept at standard atmosphere and gravity.<BR><BR>I will leave it as an exercise for others to determine what the required<BR>ship displacement would be.<BR><BR>Peter Newman wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; The way to play baseball or another sport on the interstellar<BR>&gt; level would be to get a surplus K'Kree ship that is just one<BR>&gt; big compartment, set up that compartment as a playing field,<BR>&gt; and jump it around between planets. The ship would maintain<BR>&gt; a constant standard gravity, pressure, etc. The visiting team<BR>&gt; would travel on the ship and the 'home' teams would play on the<BR>&gt; ship when it reached their planet.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; A playing field 100 meters square with a 10 meter roof would be<BR>&gt; about 7,500 displacement tons. Would a sports dome with seating,<BR>&gt; concessions, dugouts, scoreboard, whatever might be 300 meters<BR>&gt; by 200 meters with a 50 meter roof be big enough for most events?<BR>&gt; That would be about 225,000 displacement tons. If your sport does<BR>&gt; not have a high flying ball you can trim the roof height down a lot<BR>&gt; and save a lot of tonnage.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:46:02 -0600<BR>From: Bill Hopper &lt;whopper@pobox.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)<BR><BR>Sorry about the illegible attempt at ascii art.&nbsp; It did not translate well to<BR>the list.(Well, I did say it would be incredibly crude.:-))&nbsp; Hopefully the<BR>intent can be discerned from the text.<BR><BR>Bill Hopper wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...This is illustrated below in<BR>&gt; incredibly crude ascii art.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; box seats<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; __________<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; /<BR>&gt; \&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; \&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; /<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; /<BR>&gt; \&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; \&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; /<BR>&gt; stands<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; /_____field______\&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; \ ______field_____/<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ship in travel<BR>&gt; mode&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ship in game mode<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:57:00 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: Cricket, and all that<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>Well, with all this discussion on cricket, it doesn't seem off-topic to<BR>note the passing of the greatest player that the cricketing world has ever<BR>seen. Sir Don Bradman passed away on Sunday 25 February. He hadn't played<BR>cricket for 50 years, but is still regarded as Australia's greatest<BR>sporting hero. In a sport where scoring 100 runs in a game is seen as a<BR>major achievement, "The Don's" high score of 452 still stands todays as the<BR>highest individual score for a first-grade match. And he did it in record<BR>time, a little over 400 minutes.<BR><BR>He scored a total of 6996 Test runs. He averaged 99.94 in Test matches,<BR>just missing out on a perfect 100 average by four runs. His Sheffield<BR>Shield average was 110.19. He scored 117 first-grade centuries (including<BR>37 double centuries!), still a record for any Australian. He captained the<BR>"Invincibles", the team that remained unbeaten on the 1948 UK tour. He was<BR>knighted by King George VI in 1949 for his services to cricket and<BR>Commonwealth relations, and made a Companion of the Order of Australia in<BR>1979.<BR><BR>He married his wife Jessie in 1932, later describing it as the best<BR>partnership of his life. She passed away in 1997, after 65 years of<BR>marriage.<BR><BR>His advice for aspiring champions was: "They don't need wealth. They don't<BR>need power. They don't need anything else except the love of their friends<BR>and some natural ability."<BR><BR>Whether baggy-green or any other, our hats should be off and we should be<BR>upstanding for a minute's silence to mark the passing of this great man.<BR><BR>Obituary on the ABC (Australia) Web Site:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; http://www.abc.net.au/news/features/obits/bradman/<BR><BR>The Bradman Collection (State Library of South Australia) web site:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/library/collres/bradman/home_page.htm<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material &amp; opinions contained within are solely those<BR>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:02:22 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: MST3K<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Does anyone still have the link to the MST3k version of Dark Dungeons that <BR>&gt; was posted here a month or so ago?<BR><BR>Someone posted something like that somewhere just *yesterday*. I'll see<BR>if I can find it... Ah!<BR><BR>http://a_company_of_wolves.tripod.com/thetruth.html<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:24:34 +0200<BR>From: Niko Mikkanen &lt;niko.mikkanen@capslock.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Fastest Gun etc.<BR><BR>GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; So at what speed does the round melt from air friction?<BR><BR>Less than that. :)<BR><BR>One of the more interesting studies regarding railguns is the search for<BR>projectiles that can withstand the heat from air friction.<BR><BR>The upside of this is the fact that you can use the same gun for both<BR>anti-armor and anti-personnel work: Use non-melting ammunition for<BR>armor, and use something that melts for anti-personnel shotgun effect.<BR>Molten drops of iron at 15K/sec, anyone? Owwie...<BR><BR>GNiko<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Would that reason were as contagious as emotion.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:17:31 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>On 26 Feb 2001, at 19:42, Charles R Hensley wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Impressive weapon, but the original weapon in question was TL10 (see<BR>&gt; below) as was the 2 weapons I listed. (checking my previous post) Oops,<BR>&gt; I seem to have missed the line that showed TL.&nbsp; But TL was clearly<BR>&gt; listed on the online catolog.&nbsp; Next comment: can your sniper rifle punch<BR>&gt; holes in standard battledress of the tech level of your. Does not look<BR>&gt; like it can.&nbsp; Our sniper rifle can punch holes in TL13 battledress,<BR>&gt; which is 3 TLs ABOVE the TL of our sniper rifle.&nbsp; Could you please<BR>&gt; revise your weapon to TL10 for an honest comparison.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Charles H<BR>&gt; President CRH Industries, LIC<BR><BR>In response to this request for a more 'sporting' low-tech gauss sniper rifle <BR>KaliArms, Inc. of Fulton (Canopus/2228) have had the following prototype made <BR>up by Scala State Arsenal, Scala (Canopus/2229), as we supply state of the art <BR>weaponry only. This weapon is a fine example of why we at KaliArms recommend <BR>use of the most advenced smallarms available, as it is heavy and the weight of <BR>the batteries makes carrying extra ammunition impractical. However it will <BR>penetrate standard light Imperial BD-14, so it is not a complete waste of <BR>space, and should any potential buyer be interested we can provide copies in <BR>lots of 50 or more for merely 2700 Confed credits each. Volume discounts for <BR>larger orders subject to negotiation.<BR><BR>Weapon Type:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; TL-10 semi-automatic longarm<BR>Ammunition:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7.9x39.5mm/30 gauss dart<BR>Muzzle Energy:&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 17550 joules, required energy: 52650 joules<BR>Weapon Length:&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 73 cm<BR>Weapon Weight:&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 30.028 kg loaded, 19.364 kg empty, with no magazine<BR>Weapon Price:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Cr3875<BR>Magazine Weight:&nbsp;&nbsp; 10.664 kg loaded, 10.586 kg empty<BR>Magazine Price:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Cr22 (20-round box)<BR>Ammunition Price:&nbsp; Cr0.08 (Dart), Cr0.16 (HE, Tranq), Cr0.23 (HEAP)<BR>Ammunition Weight: 3.9 grams per round<BR>Features:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; plastic stock, electronic sight, bipod<BR><BR>Traveller: TNE&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>Name&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ROF Dam Pen&nbsp;&nbsp; Bulk Mag SS Burst SR<BR>7.9x39.5mm Dart&nbsp; SA5&nbsp; 9&nbsp; 1-2-4&nbsp; 10&nbsp; 20&nbsp; 2&nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; 230 (232)<BR>w/ Bipod&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SA5&nbsp; 9&nbsp; 1-2-4&nbsp; 10&nbsp; 20&nbsp; 1&nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; 300 (295.6)<BR>7.9x39.5mm HE&nbsp; &nbsp; SA5&nbsp; 9&nbsp; Nil&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; 20&nbsp; 2&nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; 170 (174)<BR>w/ Bipod&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SA5&nbsp; 9&nbsp; Nil&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; 20&nbsp; 1&nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; 220 (221.7)<BR>7.9x39.5mm HEAP&nbsp; SA5&nbsp; 9&nbsp; 2-2-2&nbsp; 10&nbsp; 20&nbsp; 2&nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; 170 (174)<BR>w/ Bipod&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SA5&nbsp; 9&nbsp; 2-2-2&nbsp; 10&nbsp; 20&nbsp; 1&nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; 220 (221.7)<BR>7.9x39.5mm Tranq SA5 -1* Nil&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; 20&nbsp; 2&nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; 30 (139.2)<BR>w/ Bipod&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SA5 -1* Nil&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; 20&nbsp; 1&nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; 30 (30)<BR><BR>All stats are TNE stats, so T4 damage would be 13, I think.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:39:16 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 26 Feb 2001, at 11:54, hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Hello Andrew,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Don't feel like you are in the Minority with Visual Basic.&nbsp; I've been<BR><BR>From what I can gather, VB definitely is not a "minority" language (about <BR>half the jobs I see advertised ask for VB skills) &lt;g&gt;.<BR><BR>Its just every developer I talk to really seems to dislike it. From what I can <BR>see it does have some problems with polymorphism, error handling and <BR>portability, but other than that it seems fairly robust (mind you inheritance <BR>is a fairly major thing to have wrong).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:23:48 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>&gt; From what I can gather, VB definitely is not a "minority" language (about <BR>&gt; half the jobs I see advertised ask for VB skills) &lt;g&gt;.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Its just every developer I talk to really seems to dislike it. From what I can <BR>&gt; see it does have some problems with polymorphism, error handling and <BR>&gt; portability, but other than that it seems fairly robust (mind you inheritance <BR>&gt; is a fairly major thing to have wrong).<BR><BR>&nbsp; Of course, that's the *real* cause of all those "VB programmer<BR>wanted" ads: their code broke because VB is such a sucky language and<BR>no-one else wants to touch the code with a barge-pole&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>&nbsp; You don't see "Haskell programmers wanted" ads because *their* code<BR>works first time and never needs maintaining ;^)&nbsp; (Tongue *very* firmly<BR>in cheek)<BR><BR>&nbsp; ObTrav: Huh?&nbsp; What's Traveller?&nbsp; I just logged onto this board to<BR>bash Visual Basic ;^)<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:37:46 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 27 Feb 2001, at 22:23, Timothy Little wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ObTrav: Huh?&nbsp; What's Traveller?&nbsp; I just logged onto this board to<BR>&gt; bash Visual Basic ;^)<BR><BR>No fair, at least pick a target capable of motion :*&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:43:32 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 11:37 AM, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On 27 Feb 2001, at 22:23, Timothy Little wrote: <BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ObTrav: Huh?&nbsp; What's Traveller?&nbsp; I just logged onto this board to <BR>&gt; &gt; bash Visual Basic ;^) <BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; No fair, at least pick a target capable of motion :*&gt; <BR><BR>Rather than being a motion...<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/dylan<BR>"The idea behind Dylan-to offer a range of dynamism appropriate to each piece of an application-feels right, and after using Dylan you will become frustrated with C++ and Java." - Software Development Magazine. <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:09:27 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Fastest Gun etc.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; Fastest Gun In The West Outdoes Nuclear Explosion<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;So at what speed does the round melt from air friction?<BR><BR>My guess is that this research is aimed at "Star Wars" missile killing -- <BR>they're thinking of using it in space, so air friction isn't a factor.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:16:34 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Fastest Gun etc.<BR><BR>Gauss rounds with coolant shells would look like tracers or tiny missiles: glowing tips with streams of gas behind them. :-)<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 01:09 PM, Paul Drye wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; Fastest Gun In The West Outdoes Nuclear Explosion <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;So at what speed does the round melt from air friction? <BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; My guess is that this research is aimed at "Star Wars" missile killing --&nbsp; <BR>&gt; they're thinking of using it in space, so air friction isn't a factor. <BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/<BR>Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,<BR>Edition en Anglais.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:33:42 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: [Website Review] The Star Kingdom of Swan<BR><BR>The Traveller Website Review<BR>- ----------------------------<BR><BR>Antony Farrell nominated his site for scrutiny:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; The Star Kingdom of Swan<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; http://www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran/<BR><BR>This is a moderately large site named after a non-canon TNE-rules<BR>campaign that forms part of the site.&nbsp; The front page is designed<BR>for a large screen, a large initial graphic and a sideways&nbsp; table<BR>of links will cause small screens to have&nbsp; horizontal&nbsp; scrolling.<BR>Apart from that this site wont win any prizes for its HTML:&nbsp; text<BR>is presented in a&nbsp; variety&nbsp; of&nbsp; colours&nbsp; on&nbsp; a&nbsp; black&nbsp; and&nbsp; white<BR>speckled 'star' background.&nbsp; Some of the headings are&nbsp; underlined<BR>and confusingly look like they are links&nbsp; (until&nbsp; you&nbsp; hover&nbsp; the<BR>mouse cursor over them).&nbsp; However, as for content ...<BR><BR>The section titled "The Campaign" details the non-canon TNE-rules<BR>campaign universe from which the site gets its name.&nbsp; It is based<BR>on the original Solomani Rim sector dot map but&nbsp; with&nbsp; the&nbsp; stats<BR>changed.&nbsp; 75% of the sector is unknown&nbsp; or&nbsp; unaligned,&nbsp; with&nbsp; the<BR>remaining 25% split between 6 pocket empires&nbsp; of&nbsp; from&nbsp; 4&nbsp; to&nbsp; 11<BR>systems each.&nbsp; The TL is 9 to 12.<BR><BR>"Star Systems &amp; Worlds" provides subsector stats for 3 subsectors<BR>and expanded detail of 5 systems&nbsp; (for&nbsp; the&nbsp; campaign).&nbsp; Some&nbsp; of<BR>these systems have a mainworld map and a&nbsp; temperature&nbsp; worksheet.<BR>While the maps look well drawn the scans don't&nbsp; do&nbsp; them&nbsp; justice<BR>... they are small and have poor contrast&nbsp; (on-map&nbsp; labelling&nbsp; is<BR>not as clear as it could be).&nbsp; The temperature worksheets are not<BR>HTML tables (or preformatted text) but are low resolution scanned<BR>images!<BR><BR>"Starships &amp; Spacecraft" provides a range of 39 TNE ships of&nbsp; TL7<BR>to 11.&nbsp; Sizes range from 20 dtons to 50K dtons.<BR><BR>"Vehicles &amp; Equipment" provides a further 9 TNE vehicles&nbsp; (TL5&nbsp; -<BR>11), 8 TNE smallarms (TL9 - 11), and 1 TNE TAC missile (TL10).<BR><BR>"Stargate" describes an interesting quirk to this game&nbsp; universe.<BR>FTL travel is based either on conventional jump-2 technology,&nbsp; or<BR>on a network of discovered ancient stargates.<BR><BR>The section titles "Banners Sector" details an alternative&nbsp; canon<BR>TNE campaign set (obviously in the Banners sector).&nbsp; It shows the<BR>changes from 1117 to 1201.<BR><BR>"MegaTraveller Equipment" is an extensive archive of MT&nbsp; designed<BR>vehicles.&nbsp; The author is&nbsp; quite&nbsp; prolific&nbsp; here.&nbsp; Vehicles&nbsp; range<BR>from TL5 to 14, 2 dtons&nbsp; to&nbsp; 85K&nbsp; dtons,&nbsp; and&nbsp; in&nbsp; function&nbsp; from<BR>tracked tank to monitor.<BR><BR>In summary:&nbsp; In addition to providing an alternative campaign&nbsp; to<BR>GDW's&nbsp; canon,&nbsp; this&nbsp; is&nbsp; a&nbsp; useful&nbsp; resource&nbsp; of&nbsp;&nbsp; MT&nbsp;&nbsp; and&nbsp;&nbsp; TNE<BR>vehicles/ships and provides&nbsp; some&nbsp; info&nbsp; on&nbsp; the&nbsp; Solomani&nbsp; Rim's<BR>rimward side.<BR><BR>Improvements:&nbsp; Taking content and presentation separately ...<BR><BR>For content the "Star Kingdom of Swan" setting is intriguing&nbsp; but<BR>the campaign specific content is still low.&nbsp; More worlds need&nbsp; to<BR>be detailed, key personalities highlighted,&nbsp; etc&nbsp; to&nbsp; bring&nbsp; this<BR>campaign to life.&nbsp; I look forward to seeing more.<BR><BR>Presentation needs work.&nbsp; The world map scans could&nbsp; be&nbsp; improved<BR>(made slightly larger and have their contrast enhanced to improve<BR>legibility.&nbsp;&nbsp; Using&nbsp; scanned&nbsp; images&nbsp;&nbsp; of&nbsp;&nbsp; tables&nbsp;&nbsp; (temperature<BR>worksheets) is slack ... they should be replaced by&nbsp; proper&nbsp; HTML<BR>tables.&nbsp; And more thought needs to be put into the overall colour<BR>scheme (though, admittedly, the sector dot maps do look good).<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:54:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: OT: statistics<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;"Perfectly statistically accurate, but fairly obviously <BR>&gt;&gt;non-meaningful."<BR>&gt;Well said, sir.&nbsp; As an engineer who must deal with statistics fairly <BR>&gt;often, I am always the voice that gently reminds my colleagues and clients <BR>&gt;not to place too much faith in them.&nbsp; The more the numbers are parsed, the <BR>&gt;more iterations they are put through, the further they are divorced from <BR>&gt;reality.&nbsp; Data can only be manipulated so far and after a certain point is <BR>&gt;reached it becomes gobblygook.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On one occassion, after a long statistical analysis, a collegue of<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mine approached me and asked whether the data had confessed.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; :)<BR><BR>&gt;A few decades ago, I came across the "fact" of left-handed people's <BR>&gt;early mortality when compared to right-handed folks.<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR>&gt;The original researcher simply believed that because so few of the <BR>&gt;elderly were left handed, that left handed people died earlier.&nbsp; He had used <BR>&gt;the numbers, but had failed to understand them.<BR>&gt;"There are three types of falsehoods; lies, damned lies, and <BR>&gt;statistics."&nbsp; Mark Twain<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; It is always good to bear this in mind, but in fairness the statistics<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; themselves do not lie.&nbsp; Like any other information they may be<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; misinterpreted, twisted, faked, incorrectly reported, etc.&nbsp; The<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; problem is that most people do not understand statistics, and<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; therefore it is relatively easy to quote a statistic and then convince<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; people that it means something far beyond a reasonable<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; interpretation.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3748<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (rly-zd05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.229]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:53:57 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:53:19 1900<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA24645;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:52:23 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:51:28 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id JAA24593<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:51:28 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:51:28 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102271451.JAA24593@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3748<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3749</B></TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, February 27 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3749<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE : Indefinite Life Span<BR>RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR>RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR>RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR>My Traveller web page ain't dead yet<BR>RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR>RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR>RE: world series<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Sayat<BR>V&amp;V<BR>RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Sayat<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Sayat<BR>lkw@io.com<BR>RE: writing programs...<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:03:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE : Indefinite Life Span<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson writes:<BR>&gt;Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;I'm fairly sure I saw a study of developed nations that showed that for<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;a given average income the country with the greatest wealth<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;difference had the lowest&nbsp; life expectancy, even in the wealthy<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;component of its population.<BR>&gt;&gt;I don't know what the deal is with regards to life expectencies in<BR>&gt;&gt;various Terran societies, but I could imagine that in those countries<BR>&gt;where there is a large gap between "rich" and "poor", education, diet<BR>&gt;&gt;and medical resources tend to be lower than in other countries (even<BR>&gt;&gt;for the "rich".<BR>&gt;Or, it may simply be a fairly obvious statistical effect having to do with<BR>&gt;averaging.<BR>&gt;If you assume that people who make $1,000 a year live to 50, $10,000 a<BR>&gt;year live to 60, $100,000 a year live to 70 (crude examples):<BR>&gt;Country A has everyone at 10,000 a year.&nbsp; Avg income 10k, avg livespan 60<BR>&gt;Country B has 91% at 1,000 a year, 9% at 100k.&nbsp; Avg income 10k, avg<BR>livespan 51.8.<BR>&gt;Perfectly statistically accurate, but fairly obviously non-meaningful.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; You are absolutely correct, and you make an important point, but it<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; does not apply to this example.&nbsp; Note that Mr. Boleyn specified that<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the life expectency was lower "even in the wealthy component of the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; population."&nbsp; Thus, to use your example, we might expect the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; average life expectency to be 70 among those who make $100,000<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a year whether they make up 9% or 90% of the population.&nbsp; I am<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; suggesting that this may not be the case since the determinants of<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; life span may generally be different for the 9% vs the 90%.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:40:22 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR><BR>Niko Mikkanen wrote:<BR>&gt; The upside of this is the fact that you can use the same gun<BR>&gt; for both anti-armor and anti-personnel work: Use non-melting<BR>&gt; ammunition for armor, and use something that melts for anti-<BR>&gt; personnel shotgun effect.&nbsp; Molten drops of iron at 15K/sec,<BR>&gt; anyone? Owwie...<BR><BR>IIRC someone on this list once worked out the effects&nbsp; of&nbsp; ultra-<BR>high velocity mozzarella cheese.&nbsp; I'm fairly sure that would melt<BR>at 15K/sec ...<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:47:21 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR><BR>On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; IIRC someone on this list once worked out the effects&nbsp; of&nbsp; ultra- <BR>&gt; high velocity mozzarella cheese.&nbsp; I'm fairly sure that would melt <BR>&gt; at 15K/sec ... <BR><BR>Unless you freeze it and allow extra cheese as ablative mass. Or use the old "tunneling laser" technique from 2300AD plasma weapons.<BR><BR>- - Rob. <BR><BR>- --<BR>JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/<BR>Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,<BR>Edition en Anglais.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:04:55 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR><BR>Rob Myers wrote:<BR>&gt; On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; IIRC someone on this list once worked out the effects&nbsp; of&nbsp; ultra- <BR>&gt; &gt; high velocity mozzarella cheese.&nbsp; I'm fairly sure that would melt <BR>&gt; &gt; at 15K/sec ... <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Unless you freeze it and allow extra cheese as ablative mass. <BR>&gt; Or use the old "tunneling laser" technique from 2300AD plasma weapons.<BR><BR>And if its small enough to carry we have the ...<BR><BR>PGMP-8 (Pizza Gun, Man Portable)<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:10:20 -0500<BR>From: "Walt Smith" &lt;firelock_ny@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: My Traveller web page ain't dead yet<BR><BR>I was saddened to see how long it had been since my last<BR>Traveller web page update.&nbsp; Therefore, I updated it.<BR><BR>Just two new additions, a pair of High Guard 2nd edition<BR>battle reports.<BR><BR>Main page:<BR>http://users.hartwick.edu/smithw/traveller.htm<BR><BR>Battle reports:<BR>http://users.hartwick.edu/smithw/starship/beaumaris.htm<BR>http://users.hartwick.edu/smithw/starship/beaumaris2.htm<BR><BR>Now I just need to finish some more deckplans!!<BR><BR>Walt Smith<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:15:36 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR><BR>Only if you use pepperoni slices as tracers.... :-)<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 05:04 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Rob Myers wrote: <BR>&gt; &gt; On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote: <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; IIRC someone on this list once worked out the effects&nbsp; of&nbsp; ultra-&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; high velocity mozzarella cheese.&nbsp; I'm fairly sure that would melt&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; at 15K/sec ...&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; Unless you freeze it and allow extra cheese as ablative mass.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; Or use the old "tunneling laser" technique from 2300AD plasma weapons. <BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; And if its small enough to carry we have the ... <BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; PGMP-8 (Pizza Gun, Man Portable) <BR><BR>- --<BR>JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/<BR>Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,<BR>Edition en Anglais.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:54:53 -0000<BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR><BR>The government today ordered an investigation into allegations of health<BR>risks posed by Depleted Anchovy-tipped rounds...<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Only if you use pepperoni slices as tracers.... :-)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; - Rob.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 05:04 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Rob Myers wrote: <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote: <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; IIRC someone on this list once worked out the effects&nbsp; <BR>&gt; of&nbsp; ultra-&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; high velocity mozzarella cheese.&nbsp; I'm fairly sure that <BR>&gt; would melt&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; at 15K/sec ...&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Unless you freeze it and allow extra cheese as ablative mass.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Or use the old "tunneling laser" technique from 2300AD <BR>&gt; plasma weapons. <BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; And if its small enough to carry we have the ... <BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; PGMP-8 (Pizza Gun, Man Portable) <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/<BR>&gt; Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,<BR>&gt; Edition en Anglais.<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:04:50 +0000<BR>From: Phil Kitching &lt;postmark.design@btinternet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: world series<BR><BR>Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>&gt;Larsen E. Whipsnade<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thank you for repsonse to my post concerning the world's<BR>&gt;&gt; most popular&nbsp; game.&nbsp; While my views do no agree with yours,<BR>&gt;&gt; I did did point out that they arise from my not being exposed<BR>&gt;&gt; to football as a child.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;OK, I haven't played in ages, so I apologize if the rules have changed or I<BR>&gt;remember incorrectly, but here's nmy understanding iof the rules.<BR><BR>Likewise, but if I my offer a few corrections.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; IIRC, an offensive player can be no nearer the goal than any<BR>&gt;&gt; defensive player, unless he is in possession of the ball.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The rule is not about to whom you can pass the ball, but on the position of<BR>&gt;the offensive player, and there must be at least two defenders between yuo<BR>&gt;and the goal, not _all_ of the defensive playrs.<BR><BR>I think it's any one player of the opposing side apart from the goalkeeper.<BR><BR>Also, if you are further away from the goal line than the ball, you are<BR>always on side.<BR><BR>Hence the tactic of the fast winger who runs down one side of the pitch to<BR>the goal line and then can pass the ball to anyone without them being<BR>offside. <BR><BR>And you can't be offside in your own half.<BR><BR>&gt;In the past, just _being_ there was enough to cause a free kick, I think<BR>&gt;this has now been amended such that its only if you are in this position and<BR>&gt;you touch the ball that it's actually a foul, but I'm not sure, it may just<BR>&gt;that, as in the past, the refs only bothered calling offside when the player<BR>&gt;was near the ball.<BR><BR>The rule is that a player counts as offside only if they are affecting play.<BR><BR>So anyone that you pass to counts, as does anyone that you might pass to<BR>but someone who stays off the pitch, is lying down exhausted or just jogging<BR>back up the pitch after an attempt on goal might not.<BR><BR>I think that the referees have been a bit more relaxed on the "not affected<BR>play"<BR>definition of late.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; If true, this shackles&nbsp; offensive players' movements.<BR>&gt;&gt; A player can not dart pass a defender,&nbsp; recieve a pass, and then attmept<BR>&gt;to score.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Yes, they can. They must, however, start "on side" before the ball is<BR>&gt;released (kicked)&nbsp; by the passing player, then they may "follow" the ball<BR>&gt;offside. What they can't do is be off-side when the ball is kicked and then<BR>&gt;play the ball.<BR><BR>This is also true. With good timing, the attacker is running towards the goal<BR>whilst the defender (looking at the ball) is running away from the goal to put<BR>him offside. So your attacker might be running fast after a ball and 5m clear<BR>of the defender, with only the goalkeeper to beat.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In my defense, I should mention that I much prefer low scoring,<BR>&gt;&gt; defensive games in American football too.&nbsp; However, I prefer basball to<BR>&gt;&gt; American football.&nbsp; Out football combines the two worst features of our<BR>&gt;&gt; culture; violence and committee meetings.<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I did notice that you made no mention of football's asinine way to<BR>&gt;&gt; settle tie games in your passionate defense of the game to me.&nbsp; Do you<BR>&gt;&gt; prefer a kicking contest to the thrilling game play you wrote about?<BR><BR>Agreed - the only decent way for a team to win is to score more goals<BR>in normal play.<BR><BR>Results over the past few decades have shown how much English teams hate<BR>such things. Or that we can't find five players in the country that can shoot<BR>straight, whichever.<BR><BR>In league matches (although I seem to recall this might not apply to<BR>American Soccer Leagues) a draw is an acceptable result.<BR><BR>Only in knockout competitions is a win/lose result required. In some of<BR>these you play home and away legs and only need a combined win/lose result.<BR>If the scores are tied, you count goals scored at the away match double,<BR>so a shootout requires that the scores in the two matches are exactly<BR>reversed.<BR><BR>In others you replay matches - the FA Cup in the UK used to have unlimited<BR>replays (IIRC one match took six replays and since the rest of the league<BR>matches still had to be fitted in, there was some risk of delaying the final)<BR><BR>I think this has changed to a single replay, plus extra time in both match -<BR>so 4 hours of football, before penalty shootouts.<BR><BR>The world cup is a specific exception because there isn't enough time<BR>available<BR>to replay any match. Even so, the first part is a league where draws are<BR>acceptable, as they are in the qualifying games.<BR><BR><BR>Phil Kitching<BR>- --<BR>&nbsp; http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>&nbsp; Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:01:23 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On 26 Feb 2001, at 11:54, hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Hello Andrew,<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Don't feel like you are in the Minority with Visual Basic.&nbsp; I've been<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;From what I can gather, VB definitely is not a "minority" language (about <BR>&gt; half the jobs I see advertised ask for VB skills) &lt;g&gt;.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Its just every developer I talk to really seems to dislike it. From what I can <BR>&gt; see it does have some problems with polymorphism, error handling and <BR>&gt; portability, but other than that it seems fairly robust (mind you inheritance <BR>&gt; is a fairly major thing to have wrong).<BR><BR>Then you're talking to a bunch of elitist 'C'nobs. VBasic now probably <BR>runs more business software than Cobol. There are TONS of applications <BR>out there, and for 99% of the work needed to be done by computers it'll do.<BR><BR>One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas, <BR>Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively <BR>straightforward using RealBASIC.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:57:48 -0600<BR>From: Loren Wiseman &lt;lkw@io.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Sayat<BR><BR>Ian,<BR><BR>I need the Sayat writeup immediately, or I'm going to have to drop it from<BR>the book -- CCing TML in case I don' have your correct e-mail address.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Loren Wiseman<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society&nbsp; http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SJ Games<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:17:22 -0600<BR>From: Loren Wiseman &lt;lkw@io.com&gt;<BR>Subject: V&amp;V<BR><BR>Gentles,<BR><BR>I need to talk to someone who owns Vilani and Vargr. Please respond to both<BR>lkw@io.com and gdwgames@aol.com.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Loren Wiseman<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society&nbsp; http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SJ Games<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:50:48 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR><BR>On 27 Feb 2001, at 16:40, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; IIRC someone on this list once worked out the effects&nbsp; of&nbsp; ultra-<BR>&gt; high velocity mozzarella cheese.&nbsp; I'm fairly sure that would melt<BR>&gt; at 15K/sec ...<BR><BR>It's rubbery at 90 degrees C, the temperature at which it is worked to give it <BR>its consistency (and to kill all the little buggies that would otherwise give <BR>it a flavour). AFAIK it doesn't melt in the traditional sense.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:28:52 -0000<BR>From: "Stuart Ferris" &lt;stuart.ferris@virgin.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>I must admit to having a good laugh about the VB debate.<BR><BR>I'd just like to point out that a great deal of Traveller software is<BR>produced in VB. All of Hugh Foster's programs, GRIP, my own Heaven &amp; Earth.<BR>I don't hear many people complaining about these programs.<BR><BR>VB is a good programming language for people who don't know how to<BR>program... and if that gets a few more people programming good (or bad)<BR>Traveller software then I'm all for it.<BR><BR>When I started writing Traveller software I was fairly competent at BASIC,<BR>but had never been near VB. Over the three years I have been producing<BR>software using VB, my skills have improved and I would say that I've slowly<BR>become a good programmer.<BR><BR>VB may not be the most advanced, logical or quick programing language, but<BR>in my opinion it is just the snobbery of 'professional' programmers who<BR>treat it with disdain.<BR><BR>Stuart Ferris<BR>stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR><BR>"A people should know when they're conquered"<BR>Quintus Magnus, Regimental Commander, Army of the North<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:40:34 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas,<BR>&gt; Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively<BR>&gt; straightforward using RealBASIC.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Yes, we've found that out in attempting to port H&amp;E to the mac.&nbsp; Ah, well...<BR><BR>Fortunately, code produced by RealBasic can be fairly easily cross compiled<BR>for Windows.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:41:31 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>I am a coder in Java and C++. It is what i do for a living.<BR><BR>That said I have also worked with VB. I find it a fairly decent and in<BR>someways robust. there is nothing wrong with it as a tool for developing<BR>software. infact Ill say this the VB development tool had a few features<BR>that i wished they would add to IBMs Visual Age for Java.<BR><BR>it is an excellent tool for those who are learning to code programs.<BR><BR>I dont understand why people would put it down. but that is just me.<BR><BR>hasta<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Stuart Ferris [mailto:stuart.ferris@virgin.net]<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 2:29 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR><BR>I must admit to having a good laugh about the VB debate.<BR><BR>I'd just like to point out that a great deal of Traveller software is<BR>produced in VB. All of Hugh Foster's programs, GRIP, my own Heaven &amp; Earth.<BR>I don't hear many people complaining about these programs.<BR><BR>VB is a good programming language for people who don't know how to<BR>program... and if that gets a few more people programming good (or bad)<BR>Traveller software then I'm all for it.<BR><BR>When I started writing Traveller software I was fairly competent at BASIC,<BR>but had never been near VB. Over the three years I have been producing<BR>software using VB, my skills have improved and I would say that I've slowly<BR>become a good programmer.<BR><BR>VB may not be the most advanced, logical or quick programing language, but<BR>in my opinion it is just the snobbery of 'professional' programmers who<BR>treat it with disdain.<BR><BR>Stuart Ferris<BR>stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR><BR>"A people should know when they're conquered"<BR>Quintus Magnus, Regimental Commander, Army of the North<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:05:08 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 27 Feb 2001, at 13:01, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Its just every developer I talk to really seems to dislike it. From what I<BR>&gt; &gt; can see it does have some problems with polymorphism, error handling and<BR>&gt; &gt; portability, but other than that it seems fairly robust (mind you<BR>&gt; &gt; inheritance is a fairly major thing to have wrong).<BR><BR>&gt; Then you're talking to a bunch of elitist 'C'nobs. VBasic now probably <BR>&gt; runs more business software than Cobol. There are TONS of applications <BR>&gt; out there, and for 99% of the work needed to be done by computers it'll do.<BR><BR>Actually mostly 'Delphi' and 'Jade'nobs :*&gt;. Me, I look at the sits vac pages <BR>and build my skills to match (VB and SQL seem to be a *very* marketable <BR>skill set). My favourite language is probably Jade because it forces you to <BR>build good OO apps, but I do my "hobby" work in Delphi (because its so <BR>much cheaper than Jade).<BR><BR>&gt; One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas, <BR>&gt; Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively <BR>&gt; straightforward using RealBASIC.<BR><BR>Okay, can someone give me some pointers on what to avoid? I am going <BR>to work in VB for my next project and portability is very high on my list of <BR>priorities.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:05:08 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 27 Feb 2001, at 22:28, Stuart Ferris wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; VB may not be the most advanced, logical or quick programing language, but in<BR>&gt; my opinion it is just the snobbery of 'professional' programmers who treat it<BR>&gt; with disdain.<BR><BR>My reason for learning it is simple. Lots of well paying jobs for VB <BR>programmers. All other considerations are secondary to me :*&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:05:08 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 27 Feb 2001, at 14:41, William Lane wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; That said I have also worked with VB. I find it a fairly decent and in<BR>&gt; someways robust. there is nothing wrong with it as a tool for developing<BR>&gt; software. infact Ill say this the VB development tool had a few features<BR>&gt; that i wished they would add to IBMs Visual Age for Java.<BR><BR>Having just started learning it I find it quite difficult getting used to the lack <BR>of centralised exception handling and the problems with inheritance. Even <BR>after just a month I can see that if I were writting HGS in VB instead of <BR>Delphi I would have had to use a radically different design model. Mind you <BR>over half of HGS's code involves data validation and error handling.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:16:51 -0000<BR>From: "Ben Aaronovitch" &lt;bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sayat<BR><BR>Hi Loren<BR><BR>I think you mismailed this.<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR>'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: Loren Wiseman &lt;lkw@io.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;katts@globalfreeway.com.au&gt;<BR>Cc: &lt;traveller@ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 8:57 PM<BR>Subject: Sayat<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Ian,<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I need the Sayat writeup immediately, or I'm going to have to drop it from<BR>&gt; the book -- CCing TML in case I don' have your correct e-mail address.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Loren Wiseman<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society&nbsp; http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SJ Games<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:31:48 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Stuart Ferris wrote:<BR>&gt; I'd just like to point out that a great deal of Traveller software<BR>&gt; is produced in VB. All of Hugh Foster's programs, GRIP, my own<BR>&gt; Heaven &amp; Earth.&nbsp; I don't hear many people complaining about these<BR>&gt; programs.<BR><BR>&nbsp; You don't hear me complaining about those programs, because they are<BR>unusable for me due to being written in Visual Basic.&nbsp; I don't<BR>complain about programs I can't even look at, I just find something<BR>else or write my own.&nbsp; Or both.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; When I started writing Traveller software I was fairly competent at<BR>&gt; BASIC, but had never been near VB. Over the three years I have been<BR>&gt; producing software using VB, my skills have improved and I would say<BR>&gt; that I've slowly become a good programmer.<BR><BR>&nbsp; That's good to hear.&nbsp; Yes, I've heard that it's an easier entry<BR>level language to learn for most people than most other languages,<BR>though I personally had an easier time learning C than I did learning<BR>BASIC.&nbsp; Eventually many of the same attributes that make it easy to<BR>learn also make it hard to write good maintainable and extendable<BR>programs.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Now that you're a "good" programmer, it might be an idea to become<BR>fluent in something other than various dialects of BASIC so you can<BR>actually do a comparison.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; VB may not be the most advanced, logical or quick programing<BR>&gt; language, but in my opinion it is just the snobbery of<BR>&gt; 'professional' programmers who treat it with disdain.<BR><BR>&nbsp; If all you need is a program that will "do something", it's not too<BR>bad.&nbsp; It's a bad choice of language to write a maintainable system<BR>that others can work on, and *especially* bad for writing large<BR>complex systems.&nbsp; It is near-impossible to write cross-platform code<BR>in.&nbsp; It has many known internal bugs, and a number of less-well known<BR>bugs.&nbsp; It conforms to no published standard, including that of its<BR>producer.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Now, you can call this 'snobbery' if you like.&nbsp; You can deny that<BR>any of these problems are undesireable in a programming language if<BR>you like, too.&nbsp; The fact is that most 'professional' programmers (and<BR>a lot of non-professional ones) know a lot of programming languages,<BR>and so have a wide base from which to make comparisons.&nbsp; If VB comes<BR>out poorly in such a comparison, then maybe it is just 'snobbery'.&nbsp; Or<BR>maybe not.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:37:52 -0000<BR>From: "Ben Aaronovitch" &lt;bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sayat<BR><BR>And then I mismailed it - wonderful.<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR>Slaps forehead 'D'oh!'<BR><BR>'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: Ben Aaronovitch &lt;bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 11:16 PM<BR>Subject: Re: Sayat<BR><BR><BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:02:24 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: lkw@io.com<BR><BR>In a message dated 27-Feb-01 8:53:57 AM Central Standard Time, <BR>owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:<BR><BR>&gt; http://www.fecundity.com/darkdung/setup.html<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; David Shayne<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:10:08 -0700<BR>From: "A. Batishko" &lt;abatish@utah-inter.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: writing programs...<BR><BR>&gt; Yes, that's fairly atrocious.<BR><BR>Yes, I believe that part of the problem is that I'm using STL lists<BR>(programming in C++) heavily. At some point down the road, those will go,<BR>but I will also be able to get some speed improvements to with some<BR>algorithm changes to allow me to store the shortest routes generated during<BR>the process.<BR><BR>&gt; My route generator produces a trade map for a<BR>&gt; sector in 2-5 seconds (depending on the sector), and is somewhat<BR>&gt; less than<BR>&gt; N^2 (for extremely large maps it should eventually drop to be<BR>&gt; close to O[N])<BR><BR>Yes, there's definitely a cut-off point, since given two worlds, if they are<BR>furher than a certain distance, won't have a high enough trade to generate a<BR>route.<BR><BR>I know that a large chunk of my time is spent calculating the shortest route<BR>between two systems. This can get really lengthy for two systems half a<BR>sector away from each other... Not sure of any way around this though...<BR><BR>Andrew<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3749<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3750</B></TD></TR>
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<TD>2/28/01 6:44:35 AM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, February 28 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3750<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR>JTAS question<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: writing programs...<BR>Re: writing programs...<BR>OT Trademark law<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert) <BR>Be afraid...<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: What could go wrong?<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>RE : Indefinite Life Span<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3749<BR>RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR>Re: VisualBASIC<BR>RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3749<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert) <BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: [TML] writing programs...<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:12:36 -0500<BR>From: Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR><BR>On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:25:09 -0500 (EST), "Steve (Bloo) Daniels"<BR>&lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;The phrase "Dungeons &amp; Dragons" is not copyrighted, indeed,<BR>&gt;it is incapable of earning a copyright because it is not an<BR>&gt;"original work of authorship", which was the reasoning the<BR>&gt;original poster used, IIRC, albeit misapplied.&nbsp; It is the same<BR>&gt;reason that you cannot copyright a title.&nbsp; As far as copyright law<BR>&gt;is concerned, I can publish a book called "Dungeons &amp; Dragons".<BR>&gt;But it is very likely that this action, permissible by copyright,<BR>&gt;would be impermissible according to *trademark* law.<BR>&gt;Different beasts.&nbsp; Sometimes similar results.<BR><BR>Actually, whether it's actionable or not would depend on what the book was<BR>about.&nbsp; If it were a treatise on strange reptilian beasts actually kept in<BR>the basements of European castles, you'd probably get away with it.&nbsp; That's<BR>one of the reasons we have Apple Computer and Apple Records, two unrelated<BR>companies.&nbsp; It was ruled that the spheres of influence of the two companies<BR>were dissimilar enough that no trademark infringement could take place.<BR>- --<BR>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:07:11 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: JTAS question<BR><BR>Was the Contact: Darrians article from JTAS #14 reprinted in Best of JTAS<BR>#4?<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:17:44 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR><BR>&gt;Having just started learning it I find it quite difficult getting used to<BR>the lack <BR>&gt;of centralised exception handling and the problems with inheritance. Even <BR>&gt;after just a month I can see that if I were writting HGS in VB instead of <BR>&gt;Delphi I would have had to use a radically different design model. Mind you <BR>&gt;over half of HGS's code involves data validation and error handling.<BR><BR>Believe it or not - validation of data seems absurdedly simple in Visual Basic.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:22:44 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: writing programs...<BR><BR>A. Batishko wrote:<BR>&gt; Yes, there's definitely a cut-off point, since given two worlds, if they are<BR>&gt; furher than a certain distance, won't have a high enough trade to generate a<BR>&gt; route.<BR><BR>&nbsp; No, but they can still have enough to add to an existing route.<BR>Across the Imperium, there are huge numbers of such additions with a<BR>cumulative effect substantially greater than that of the subsector<BR>trade routes themselves.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; I know that a large chunk of my time is spent calculating the<BR>&gt; shortest route between two systems. This can get really lengthy for<BR>&gt; two systems half a sector away from each other... Not sure of any<BR>&gt; way around this though...<BR><BR>You can at least reduce it to O((log n)^2) or so for each planet by<BR>caching route segments.&nbsp; Probably further reduction with better<BR>algorithm design, but this is probably sufficient.&nbsp; That improves<BR>matters greatly for maps of sector size or larger.&nbsp; Distance binning<BR>reduces the overall map calculation from O(n^2) trade calculations to<BR>O(n log n).&nbsp; So the overall calculation can be reduced to<BR>O(n (log n)^3).<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:33:23 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: writing programs...<BR><BR>Timothy Little writes:<BR><BR>&gt; You can at least reduce it to O((log n)^2) or so for each planet by<BR>&gt; caching route segments.<BR><BR>For any given world, you can generate all possible routes from the world as<BR>O(dist^2); generating all 10 pc or shorter routes from every world on the <BR>map is O(n) as long as the map is considerably larger than 10 pc across.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:36:49 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: OT Trademark law<BR><BR>Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; It was ruled that the spheres of influence of the two companies<BR>&gt; were dissimilar enough that no trademark infringement could take place.<BR><BR>Well, I didn't want to open this door, because it gets extremely<BR>confusing and uncertain.&nbsp; Yes, trademark is limited by market.<BR>But not just the market the mark is currently used in.&nbsp; If you<BR>can demonstrate an "Intent To Use" (ITU), you can get TM<BR>protection.&nbsp; But it gets more complicated.&nbsp; The likelihood of<BR>a mark owner to 'bridge the gap' from one market to another<BR>can be/has been used to protect a mark in other markets,<BR>that may appear unrelated to the casual observer.&nbsp; Blizzard<BR>Games in now suing New Line Cinema in an attempt to<BR>prevent them from releasing a film named "Diablo".&nbsp; Blizzard<BR>has sold over $100 million in Diablo games.&nbsp; I haven't<BR>read the filings, but I can imagine what it says.&nbsp; Something<BR>along the lines of this:<BR><BR>In the minds of the consumer, because of some similarity to<BR>the New Line movie, there is a very strong likelihood that<BR>we, Blizzard Games, would bridge the gap from games to moves,<BR>similar to Final Fantasy, Mortal Kombat, and others.&nbsp; Indeed, we<BR>can demonstrate with treatments, outlines and notes that we intend<BR>to make movies building upon the valuable "Diablo" brand that we<BR>have created.&nbsp; Therefore, to protect the value of our mark, we<BR>ask the court to enjoin New Line from marketing and releasing<BR>this film with the title Diablo.&nbsp; ... yada, yada, yada.<BR><BR>It never ends.&nbsp; TM law can be a real mess.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:02:36 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert) <BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; listed on the online catolog.&nbsp; Next comment: can your sniper rifle<BR>punch<BR>&gt;&gt; holes in standard battledress of the tech level of your. Does not<BR>look<BR>&gt;&gt; like it can.&nbsp; Our sniper rifle can punch holes in TL13 battledress,<BR>&gt;&gt; which is 3 TLs ABOVE the TL of our sniper rifle.&nbsp; Could you please<BR>&gt;&gt; revise your weapon to TL10 for an honest comparison.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Charles H<BR>&gt;&gt; President CRH Industries, LIC<BR><BR>Sorry about this. I was using an incorrect conversion from one system to<BR>another.<BR><BR>&lt;snip another impressive weapon&gt;<BR><BR>One problem with this weapon,&nbsp; 30.028 kg loaded. (but our 15mm sniper<BR>"full kit" weighs in at 87kg, but 17kg combat ready)<BR>Might I suggest a CG unit to help carry it. (part of the hefty weight of<BR>our "full kit")<BR><BR>I guess the buyers will determine which is best.<BR><BR>Good luck.<BR>Charles H<BR>President CRH Industries, LIC<BR><BR>P.S.<BR>&gt;as we supply state of the art&nbsp; weaponry only. This weapon is a fine<BR>example of why we at KaliArms &gt;recommend&nbsp; use of the most advenced<BR>smallarms available, as it is heavy and the weight of<BR>&gt;the batteries makes carrying extra ammunition impractical.<BR><BR>As a note, I write mostly about Milieu 0, therefore TL12 max. And in<BR>Year 0, CRH Industries is working at TL11.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:59:19 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Be afraid...<BR><BR>Loren Wiseman puts into the Ether:<BR>&gt;I need the Sayat writeup immediately, or I'm going to have to drop it from<BR>&gt;the book -- CCing TML in case I don' have your correct e-mail address.<BR><BR>A cold chill just ran down my spine...<BR><BR><BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one.<BR>http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:37:18 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; On 26 Feb 2001, at 11:54, hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Hello Andrew,<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Don't feel like you are in the Minority with Visual Basic.&nbsp; I've been<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; From what I can gather, VB definitely is not a "minority" language (about<BR>&gt; half the jobs I see advertised ask for VB skills) &lt;g&gt;.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Its just every developer I talk to really seems to dislike it.<BR>&gt; From what I can<BR>&gt; see it does have some problems with polymorphism, error handling and<BR>&gt; portability, but other than that it seems fairly robust (mind you<BR>&gt; inheritance&nbsp; is a fairly major thing to have wrong).<BR><BR>It's also only available on Microsoft platforms, has (or had) a horrible<BR>user interface, and resulted in many people who aren't programmers writing<BR>thousands of progranmmes that those of us who are programmers have had to<BR>try and weed out of corporate environments because of their incorrectness.<BR>The worst culprits are active data controls, these are such a problem there<BR>really should be laws against them.<BR><BR>Consultants like Visual Basic, if someone uses it, it means sometime down<BR>the track we'll get employed to fix the mess it's caused. Companies should<BR>hate Visual Basic for the same reason.<BR><BR>All IME, of course.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:14:13 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>On 02/26/01 at 11:36 AM,&nbsp; Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;&lt;Sigh&gt;Of course I know you were reading it...I was half expecting<BR>&gt;to have some weird noise start up on the _Random Walk_ just to keep<BR>&gt;things interesting.<BR><BR>&gt;(The _Walk_ is the _Mae Lee's_ ships boat.) <BR><BR>Nah!&nbsp; The weird noise will start when you try to get Jezebel aboard<BR>the _Walk_.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Bruce's character is on a mission to pickup a new crewmember,<BR>Jezebel, but Jezebel has "air/raftiphobia", and she's 14 days deep<BR>into the wilderness.&nbsp; Jez is going to insist on walking out rather<BR>than riding the _Walk_.&nbsp; Waiting on her for two weeks won't help the<BR>_Mae Lee's_ bottom line very much, but leaving her will cost them<BR>50,000 credits.&nbsp; The ship's doctor is already thinking about ways to<BR>knock Jez out so she can be carried aboard and transported...shades<BR>of Mr. T!&nbsp; &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Don't you love it when a plan comes together? <BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:44:40 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 28 Feb 2001, at 18:37, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; It's also only available on Microsoft platforms, has (or had) a horrible<BR>&gt; user interface, and resulted in many people who aren't programmers writing<BR>&gt; thousands of progranmmes that those of us who are programmers have had to try<BR>&gt; and weed out of corporate environments because of their incorrectness. The<BR>&gt; worst culprits are active data controls, these are such a problem there really<BR>&gt; should be laws against them.<BR><BR>But surely thats a training issue, rather than a language issue. It would be <BR>quite possible to give someone minimal training in Delphi, set them lose <BR>and watch them generate code from hell. In this case it seems more like <BR>there are a lot of poorly trained VB programmers than any failing of the <BR>language (uhmm, a definite market niche, more reasons to learn VB).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:09:22 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 02/28/01 at 07:44 PM,&nbsp; "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;On 28 Feb 2001, at 18:37, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; It's also only available on Microsoft platforms, has (or had) a<BR>&gt;&gt; horrible user interface, and resulted in many people who aren't<BR>&gt;&gt; programmers writing thousands of progranmmes that those of us who<BR>&gt;&gt; are programmers have had to try and weed out of corporate<BR>&gt;&gt; environments because of their incorrectness.&nbsp; The worst culprits<BR>&gt;&gt; are active data controls, these are such a problem there really<BR>&gt;&gt; should be laws against them.<BR><BR>&gt;But surely thats a training issue, rather than a language issue. It<BR>&gt;would be&nbsp; quite possible to give someone minimal training in<BR>&gt;Delphi, set them lose&nbsp; and watch them generate code from hell. In<BR>&gt;this case it seems more like&nbsp; there are a lot of poorly trained VB<BR>&gt;programmers than any failing of the&nbsp; language (uhmm, a definite<BR>&gt;market niche, more reasons to learn VB).<BR><BR>Folks, there are "horses for courses"...C, C++, Java, VB, Delphi,<BR>Perl, CoBOL, and even Assembler have their advantages and<BR>disadvantages.&nbsp; Part of learning to program is learning which<BR>language to use for each project.&nbsp; To do that you need experience<BR>with several. <BR><BR>VB is a perfectly good hobbiest language, and that's not an<BR>insult...Turbo Pascal was (and Delphi *is*) also a good hobbiest<BR>language.&nbsp; It's just not what I'd pick for mission critical<BR>projects.<BR><BR>VB is good for small Windows based programs, and even for<BR>prototyping larger programs, and that's what it was designed for,<BR>not large commercial or mission critical projects.&nbsp; Doesn't mean you<BR>*couldn't* use it for that, heck CoBOL was used to write an<BR>operating system once upon a time, it just means it's generally not<BR>the best choice.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:24:44 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE : Indefinite Life Span<BR><BR>The correlation is poor, as I previously posted.<BR>As Anthony J. has said, a statistical artifact is more than likely, given<BR>that the distributions of (prob. survival vs. age at death) are going to be<BR>so similar (like that silly 'Bell Curve' book that came out in the U.S. a<BR>little while ago).<BR><BR>Actual societal factors can be (and have been) enumerated by the list.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:27:13 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3749<BR><BR>&gt;From: Loren Wiseman &lt;lkw@io.com&gt;<BR>&gt;To: &lt;katts@globalfreeway.com.au&gt;<BR>&gt;Cc: &lt;traveller@ient.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 8:57 PM<BR>&gt;Subject: Sayat<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Ian,<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; I need the Sayat writeup immediately, or I'm going to have to drop it from<BR>&gt;&gt; the book -- CCing TML in case I don' have your correct e-mail address.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Loren Wiseman<BR><BR>With much regret, I must tell you that you are going to have to drop it from the book.<BR><BR>Kenji did not appear to be completely happy with the IP implications of the Sayat turning up in a SJG <BR>product.<BR><BR>I apologise for not writing to you with this sad news earlier.<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:33:57 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.<BR><BR>I'd like to thank David Smart for posting another interesting link.<BR>Reading about Z on the Sandia Labs website was very informative.<BR><BR>&gt; When the plate is accelerated to a speed about 20 times faster than a<BR>&gt; bullet, or 20 km/sec, the more forceful acceleration needed to reach<BR>&gt; higher velocity causes temperatures of 2,500 K to occur in the flyer<BR>&gt; plate; this liquefies aluminum flyer plates.<BR><BR>This is purely an accelerative effect ; no air friction required.<BR><BR>Z is the world's most powerful X-ray source.<BR>For a few trillionths of a second, its power output is equivalent to 80<BR>times the world's electrical generating capacity.<BR><BR>I hope that funding is approved for the next generation X-1 device.<BR>&gt; X-1 should produce x-ray temperatures of more than 3 million degrees,<BR>&gt; which, when combined with enough x-ray energy and power, should be<BR>&gt; sufficient to implode fusion capsules of deuterium and tritium<BR>&gt; (isotopes of hydrogen) to achieve high-yield fusion.<BR><BR>Ob Travs : inertial confinement fusion reactors (with<BR>lithium-beryllium-fluoride power couplings!), materials and blast physics<BR>research, etc...<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:34:40 -0000<BR>From: "Jeff Rowse" &lt;jeffrowse@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: VisualBASIC<BR><BR>In my experience, the only two things wrong with VB is the supplier (I am <BR>not a great fan of M****$loth software in general) and the fact that it <BR>tends to be the 'Language of Choice' for script kiddies everywhere.<BR><BR>ObTrav:&nbsp; You are just about to jump from system 'A' to system 'B' when STC <BR>(Space Traffic Control) sends you a wonderful new movie clip of low-gee <BR>tennis superstar Aaana Kornikovaaa...<BR><BR>Jeff<BR>(Ever thought of using the 'Traveller Geek Code' to express your software <BR>'interests'?&nbsp; Hmm, C++--, anyone?)<BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:34:10 -0000<BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3749<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Ian,<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; I need the Sayat writeup immediately, or I'm going to have <BR>&gt; to drop it from<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; the book -- CCing TML in case I don' have your correct <BR>&gt; e-mail address.<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Loren Wiseman<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; With much regret, I must tell you that you are going to have <BR>&gt; to drop it from the book.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Kenji did not appear to be completely happy with the IP <BR>&gt; implications of the Sayat turning up in a SJG <BR>&gt; product.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I apologise for not writing to you with this sad news earlier.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ian Whitchurch<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>Any chance of seeing the write-up released privately, even if only to the<BR>TML? I don't know nearly enough about the Sayat.<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:12:50 +1030<BR>From: htp &lt;htp@metropolis.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 20010227.2228, "Stuart Ferris" &lt;stuart.ferris@virgin.net&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;VB is a good programming language for people who don't know how to<BR>&gt;program... and if that gets a few more people programming good (or bad)<BR>&gt;Traveller software then I'm all for it.<BR><BR>If we follow that logic... The Anarchist Cookbook is a good introduction <BR>to chemistry - for those people that don't know a thing about <BR>chemistry...&nbsp; and if it gets a few more people manufacturing explosive <BR>compounds (which occasionally produce pretty patterns), then I'm all for <BR>it!<BR><BR><BR>&gt;VB may not be the most advanced, logical or quick programing language, but<BR>&gt;in my opinion it is just the snobbery of 'professional' programmers who<BR>&gt;treat it with disdain.<BR><BR>Yeah, write off the opinions of people who actually _know_ what they are <BR>talking about, and base their opinions on decades of <BR>_real_world_experience_ - just because they don't agree with you.&nbsp; Smart <BR>move.<BR><BR><BR>VB is, by any thorough and objective assessment, a piece of crap.&nbsp; It <BR>will open up programming to the masses, and give birth to generations of <BR>pathetic "programmers" who will churn out billions of lines of absolutely <BR>_shocking_ code.&nbsp; Herd mentality will take over at some point, and the <BR>mob will declare itself to be "the" force to be reckoned with (the word <BR>"standard" will be bandied about a lot).&nbsp; Bolstered by sheer weight of <BR>numbers, they will then attack and marginalise the proponents of other <BR>programming languages on grounds totally without merit, but which sound <BR>_really_ good when chanted by a few million drones in unison.&nbsp; Those with <BR>clue will hide to avoid being trampled as the herd rushes by... and then <BR>plunges off the edge of a very large cliff.&nbsp; Once the dust has settled, <BR>those with clue will pick themselves up, brush themselves off, and, <BR>humming a cheerful but irreverent tune, resolutely set about the task of <BR>repairing the damage and making the world a _better_ place.<BR><BR>It is the _quality_ of code that is important, not the _quantity_ of code.<BR><BR>Henry.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:03:09 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 28 Feb 2001, at 20:12, htp wrote:<BR><BR>[his vorpal blade went snicker snack]<BR><BR>Hey lossen up. Its just a tool (like all programming languages), no more <BR>responsible for those who choose to use it than any other. VB may have <BR>some real technical limitations, but poor programmers are not its fault.<BR><BR>Andrew (who is regretting ever mentioning VB).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:11:12 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert) <BR><BR>On 27 Feb 2001, at 20:02, Charles R Hensley wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; One problem with this weapon,&nbsp; 30.028 kg loaded. (but our 15mm sniper<BR>&gt; "full kit" weighs in at 87kg, but 17kg combat ready)<BR>&gt; Might I suggest a CG unit to help carry it. (part of the hefty weight of<BR>&gt; our "full kit")<BR><BR>The smallest THe legal CG gear weighs 20kg, has a volume of 30L and costs <BR>Cr3000. It also works on a volume of 1.4 m^3, which will tend to make carrying <BR>it "interesting".<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:58:23 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote :<BR>&gt; Hey lossen up. Its just a tool (like all programming languages), no more<BR>&gt; responsible for those who choose to use it than any other. VB may have<BR>&gt; some real technical limitations, but poor programmers are not its fault.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Andrew (who is regretting ever mentioning VB).<BR><BR>Don't worry Andrew, the only time I really got hot under the collar about VB<BR>usage was when I saw a contract advertised somewhere in Scandinavia for a<BR>nuclear power station control program in VB....all I could think was that<BR>I'm glad I live on the other side of the world.<BR><BR>Other times, I don't care, if a client wants to use it, it's their problem.<BR>There are even situations where I'd recommend using VB to a client, though<BR>they are few and far between these days as Java apps are so much quicker and<BR>easier to write than even VB applications (much better libraries), except<BR>for when you need to use OLE links to Windows apps or something like that.<BR><BR>The big problem, IMO, and what causes the trouble, is the advertising that<BR>convinces middle managers that they can write their own software in ten<BR>minutes, and then try to do so, and hand the resulting mess over to IT to<BR>fix.<BR><BR>Not so much the language as the effect it has on non-programmrs. I like the<BR>other poster's analogy to the "The Anarchist's Cookbook", it's a good one.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:43:02 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>&gt; The big problem, IMO, and what causes the trouble, is the<BR>&gt; advertising that convinces middle managers that they can write<BR>&gt; their own software in ten minutes, and then try to do so, and<BR>&gt; hand the resulting mess over to IT to fix.<BR><BR>I think the 'problem' is with *any* rapid application development<BR>tool.&nbsp; Anything where the initial learning curve is&nbsp; shallow&nbsp; and<BR>users start getting results early on&nbsp; is&nbsp; usually&nbsp; deployed&nbsp; with<BR>minimal training.&nbsp; I've seen problems with spreadsheet macros ...<BR>badly writen by users then handed over&nbsp; to&nbsp; IT&nbsp; to&nbsp; fix/maintain.<BR>With more difficult to master tools/languages&nbsp; (a)&nbsp; novice&nbsp; users<BR>steer clear, (b) professionals usually get a half-hearted stab at<BR>proper training before they use it.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:44:55 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>htp wrote:<BR>&gt; VB is, by any thorough and objective assessment, a piece of crap.<BR>&gt; It will open up programming to the masses, and give birth to <BR>&gt; generations of pathetic "programmers" who will churn out billions<BR>&gt; of lines of absolutely _shocking_ code.<BR><BR>I take it you miss the days where the&nbsp; only&nbsp; computers&nbsp; were&nbsp; big<BR>hulking mainframes&nbsp; tended&nbsp; to&nbsp; by&nbsp; acolyte-like&nbsp; operators,&nbsp; and<BR>dispise the personal computer (PC, Mac, etc) that gave&nbsp; computing<BR>power to the masses.<BR><BR>Computing *isn't* some sort&nbsp; of&nbsp; modern&nbsp; religion&nbsp; who's&nbsp; secrets<BR>should only be revealed to&nbsp; the&nbsp; privileged&nbsp; few&nbsp; who&nbsp; can&nbsp; prove<BR>themselves&nbsp; worthy!&nbsp; Anything&nbsp; (including&nbsp; VB)&nbsp; that&nbsp;&nbsp; opens&nbsp;&nbsp; up<BR>computing to the masses is a *good* thing.&nbsp; Yes, there will be&nbsp; a<BR>lot more third-rate programs flying about, but many&nbsp; more&nbsp; people<BR>than now will be empowered ... And at the end of the&nbsp; day&nbsp; that's<BR>the&nbsp; whole&nbsp; point&nbsp; of&nbsp; computing.&nbsp;&nbsp; Speaking&nbsp; as&nbsp; a&nbsp; professional<BR>programmer I think your ivory tower viewpoint does our profession<BR>a dis-service.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; It is the _quality_ of code that is important, not the <BR>&gt; _quantity_ of code.<BR><BR>Piffle!&nbsp; Its&nbsp; the&nbsp; *utility*&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; code&nbsp; that&nbsp; is&nbsp; important.<BR>Quality code is worthless if it&nbsp; isn't&nbsp; useful&nbsp; to&nbsp; someone,&nbsp; and<BR>while bad quality code might not be as useful as it could&nbsp; be&nbsp; it<BR>can still be better than nothing.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:31:17 -0500<BR>From: Jonathan McDermott &lt;caraig@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [TML] writing programs...<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:10:08 -0700<BR>&gt;From: "A. Batishko" &lt;abatish@utah-inter.net&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: RE: writing programs...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Yes, that's fairly atrocious.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Yes, I believe that part of the problem is that I'm using STL lists<BR><BR>Of course you are; our TL isn't high enough for jump drive yet. =)<BR><BR>&lt;g,d,r!&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 06:42:24 -0800<BR>From: Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>on 2/27/01 3:05 PM, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance at a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz<BR>wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas,<BR>&gt;&gt; Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively<BR>&gt;&gt; straightforward using RealBASIC.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Okay, can someone give me some pointers on what to avoid? I am going<BR>&gt; to work in VB for my next project and portability is very high on my list of<BR>&gt; priorities.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR>I would recommend the use 'Option Explicit' to get your variables declared,<BR>minimize the use of variants, and minimize the use of controls.<BR><BR>Tod<BR>- --<BR>"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.<BR>They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Daniel Webster<BR>- -- <BR>Tod L Glenn<BR>webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.spinwardmarches.com<BR>http://www.solsec.org<BR>http://www.grandsurvey.com<BR>http://travellerguns.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3750<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (rly-zc03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.3]) by air-zc03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:44:34 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:43:48 1900<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA82578;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:43:01 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:42:24 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id JAA82528<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:42:24 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:42:24 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102281442.JAA82528@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3750<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3751</B></TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, February 28 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3751<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>test<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: JTAS question<BR>OT:&nbsp; Now that was weird<BR>Arrghh!!<BR>RE: Arrghh!!<BR>RE: Arrghh!!<BR>RE: Arrghh!!<BR>RE: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR>RE: Arrghh!!<BR>Re: test<BR>Re: test<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3750<BR>Re: What could go wrong?<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>V&amp;V Errata<BR>Re: V&amp;V Errata<BR>RE: V&amp;V Errata<BR>Re: V&amp;V Errata<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: V&amp;V Errata<BR>VB comments (OT by the way)<BR>Re: Sayat<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:42:07 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas, <BR>&gt; Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively <BR>&gt; straightforward using RealBASIC.<BR><BR>I have also recently started a VB Traveller&nbsp; project&nbsp; (maybe&nbsp; its<BR>just that time of the year) and I may want to port it to&nbsp; obscure<BR>O/Ss like Mac ...&nbsp; what&nbsp; "Windowze-Only"&nbsp; features&nbsp; give&nbsp; porting<BR>problems?&nbsp; I'd like to&nbsp; avoid&nbsp; them&nbsp; if&nbsp; possible.&nbsp; (Also,&nbsp; I&nbsp; am<BR>storing data in an Access database [1]&nbsp; and&nbsp; using&nbsp; SQL&nbsp; commands<BR>where possible.&nbsp; Is their a Mac equivalent?)<BR><BR>[1] = For PC does *not* require Access be installed to use Access<BR>database.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:17:03 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: test<BR><BR>testing, 1,2,3..<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:17:24 -0500<BR>From: Kurt Feltenberger &lt;kurt@blazenet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>At 02:42 PM 02/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas,<BR>&gt; &gt; Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively<BR>&gt; &gt; straightforward using RealBASIC.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I have also recently started a VB Traveller&nbsp; project&nbsp; (maybe&nbsp; its<BR>&gt;just that time of the year) and I may want to port it to&nbsp; obscure<BR>&gt;O/Ss like Mac ...&nbsp; what&nbsp; "Windowze-Only"&nbsp; features&nbsp; give&nbsp; porting<BR>&gt;problems?&nbsp; I'd like to&nbsp; avoid&nbsp; them&nbsp; if&nbsp; possible.&nbsp; (Also,&nbsp; I&nbsp; am<BR>&gt;storing data in an Access database [1]&nbsp; and&nbsp; using&nbsp; SQL&nbsp; commands<BR>&gt;where possible.&nbsp; Is their a Mac equivalent?)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;[1] = For PC does *not* require Access be installed to use Access<BR>&gt;database.<BR><BR>If you can locate a copy of FileMaker Pro, you can develop a cross platform <BR>database for FMP.&nbsp; Or, if you have the developer's kit, you can create a <BR>stand alone database that does not require any specific software on the end <BR>user's part.<BR><BR>Kurt Feltenberger<BR><BR>"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ~Stephen Decatur<BR><BR><BR>mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:20:44 +0000<BR>From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk<BR>Subject: Re: JTAS question<BR><BR>knightsky@juno.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Was the Contact: Darrians article from JTAS #14 reprinted in Best of JTAS<BR>&gt;#4?<BR><BR><BR>Yes, according to the _Traveller Periodical Bibliography_.&nbsp; no.4, pp.8-10<BR><BR>Does that help?<BR><BR>tc<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:24:49 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: OT:&nbsp; Now that was weird<BR><BR>Perhaps you computer geniuses can help me with this.<BR><BR>The Shiny New Computer is up and running, and is everything I had hoped<BR>for.&nbsp; However, for the last two days, I was unable to post to the TML!&nbsp; I<BR>was getting messages, but nothing was posting.<BR><BR>I'm stumped.&nbsp; It didn't affect my other email lists..&nbsp; any clues?&nbsp; I'm<BR>using Eudora v3.0.3<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Some days, you just can't get rid&nbsp; of a bomb!"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -Adam West, as Batman <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:43:23 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Arrghh!!<BR><BR>Now I'm getting two copies of every message!&nbsp; Is there any way to check to<BR>see if I'm subscribed twice?<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:03:29 -0000<BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Arrghh!!<BR><BR>Try sending a who command to majordomo<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Douglas Berry [mailto:gridlore@mindspring.com]<BR>&gt; Sent: 28 February 2001 15:43<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Arrghh!!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Now I'm getting two copies of every message!&nbsp; Is there any <BR>&gt; way to check to<BR>&gt; see if I'm subscribed twice?<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>&gt; http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>&gt; sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:03:47 -0000<BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Arrghh!!<BR><BR>Try sending a who command to majordomo :)<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Douglas Berry [mailto:gridlore@mindspring.com]<BR>&gt; Sent: 28 February 2001 15:43<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Arrghh!!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Now I'm getting two copies of every message!&nbsp; Is there any <BR>&gt; way to check to<BR>&gt; see if I'm subscribed twice?<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>&gt; http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>&gt; sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:45:06 -0500<BR>From: Kurt Feltenberger &lt;kurt@blazenet.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Arrghh!!<BR><BR>At 04:03 PM 02/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Try sending a who command to majordomo :)<BR><BR>Now that was e-vile...<BR><BR><BR>Kurt Feltenberger<BR><BR>"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ~Stephen Decatur<BR><BR><BR>mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:34:14 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR><BR>Thanks<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>Email&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk<BR>Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Steve <BR>&gt; (Bloo) Daniels<BR>&gt; Sent: 27 February 2001 00:26<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Mark Preston wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;Bloo said:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; The original poster said that in the U.S. the phrase "Dungeons<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &amp; Dragons" is protected by US copyright law, but is protected<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; by trademark law (and not copyright law) in Europe.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; That statement is incorrect.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I am surprised to hear that - although I admit that I got <BR>&gt; the quote<BR>&gt; &gt; from a magazine, not a legal ruling. Could you let me <BR>&gt; know what the<BR>&gt; &gt; situation actually is?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; "Dungeons &amp; Dragons" is a registered trademark in the US.<BR>&gt; http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&amp;state=5roev8.3.4<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The phrase "Dungeons &amp; Dragons" is not copyrighted, indeed,<BR>&gt; it is incapable of earning a copyright because it is not an<BR>&gt; "original work of authorship", which was the reasoning the<BR>&gt; original poster used, IIRC, albeit misapplied.&nbsp; It is the same<BR>&gt; reason that you cannot copyright a title.&nbsp; As far as copyright law<BR>&gt; is concerned, I can publish a book called "Dungeons &amp; Dragons".<BR>&gt; But it is very likely that this action, permissible by copyright,<BR>&gt; would be impermissible according to *trademark* law.<BR>&gt; Different beasts.&nbsp; Sometimes similar results.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; bloo<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:48:29 -0000<BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Arrghh!!<BR><BR>Sorry, Penguin-Boy couldn't resist :)<BR>Muahahaha<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Kurt Feltenberger [mailto:kurt@blazenet.net]<BR>&gt; Sent: 28 February 2001 16:45<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Arrghh!!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; At 04:03 PM 02/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;Try sending a who command to majordomo :)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Now that was e-vile...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Kurt Feltenberger<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; "To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ~Stephen Decatur<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:19:36 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: test<BR><BR>Got it<BR><BR>Tod<BR>- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Douglas Berry" &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 7:17 AM<BR>Subject: test<BR><BR><BR>&gt; testing, 1,2,3..<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>&gt; http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>&gt; sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:19:46 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: test<BR><BR>Got it<BR><BR>Tod<BR>- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Douglas Berry" &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 7:17 AM<BR>Subject: test<BR><BR><BR>&gt; testing, 1,2,3..<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>&gt; http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>&gt; sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:47:32 -0000<BR>From: "Stuart Ferris" &lt;stuart.ferris@virgin.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Tod Glenn wrote:-<BR><BR>&gt;I would recommend the use 'Option Explicit' to get your variables declared,<BR>&gt;minimize the use of variants, and minimize the use of controls.<BR><BR>Is that a hint? ;-)<BR><BR>Stuart Ferris<BR>stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR><BR>"A people should know when they're conquered"<BR>Quintus Magnus, Regimental Commander, Army of the North<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:59:57 -0000<BR>From: "Stuart Ferris" &lt;stuart.ferris@virgin.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3750<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;VB is a good programming language for people who don't know how to<BR>&gt;&gt;program... and if that gets a few more people programming good (or bad)<BR>&gt;&gt;Traveller software then I'm all for it.<BR><BR>&gt;If we follow that logic... The Anarchist Cookbook is a good introduction<BR>&gt;to chemistry - for those people that don't know a thing about<BR>&gt;chemistry...&nbsp; and if it gets a few more people manufacturing explosive<BR>&gt;compounds (which occasionally produce pretty patterns), then I'm all for<BR>&gt;it!<BR><BR>Sorry, but that is simply complete and utter b*ll*cks! There simply is no<BR>point of comparison.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;VB may not be the most advanced, logical or quick programing language, but<BR>&gt;&gt;in my opinion it is just the snobbery of 'professional' programmers who<BR>&gt;&gt;treat it with disdain.<BR><BR>&gt;Yeah, write off the opinions of people who actually _know_ what they are<BR>&gt;talking about, and base their opinions on decades of<BR>&gt;_real_world_experience_ - just because they don't agree with you.&nbsp; Smart<BR>&gt;move.<BR><BR>I'll certainly write off your opinions.<BR><BR>It seems to be an industry trend to slag off VB and if your a professional<BR>programmer you've simply got to dislke VB.<BR><BR>To be honest the thoughtful and coherent way you put forward your argument<BR>isn't going to change my opinion.<BR><BR>&gt;VB is, by any thorough and objective assessment, a piece of crap.&nbsp; It<BR>&gt;will open up programming to the masses, and give birth to generations of<BR>&gt;pathetic "programmers" who will churn out billions of lines of absolutely<BR>&gt;_shocking_ code.&nbsp; Herd mentality will take over at some point, and the<BR>&gt;mob will declare itself to be "the" force to be reckoned with (the word<BR>&gt;"standard" will be bandied about a lot).&nbsp; Bolstered by sheer weight of<BR>&gt;numbers, they will then attack and marginalise the proponents of other<BR>&gt;programming languages on grounds totally without merit, but which sound<BR>&gt;_really_ good when chanted by a few million drones in unison.&nbsp; Those with<BR>&gt;clue will hide to avoid being trampled as the herd rushes by... and then<BR>&gt;plunges off the edge of a very large cliff.&nbsp; Once the dust has settled,<BR>&gt;those with clue will pick themselves up, brush themselves off, and,<BR>&gt;humming a cheerful but irreverent tune, resolutely set about the task of<BR>&gt;repairing the damage and making the world a _better_ place.<BR><BR>Another irrational and pointless paragraph.<BR><BR>&gt;It is the _quality_ of code that is important, not the _quantity_ of code.<BR><BR>I agree with this statement entirely, although, I don't really know what it<BR>has to do with the above?<BR><BR>Any programming language is likely to have good programmers and bad<BR>programmers. I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program like you form<BR>the basis of an argument then I take it you fall into the latter catagory.<BR><BR>Stuart Ferris<BR>stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR><BR>"A people should know when they're conquered"<BR>Quintus Magnus, Regimental Commander, Army of the North<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:14:21 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Nah!&nbsp; The weird noise will start when you try to get Jezebel aboard<BR>&gt; the _Walk_.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bruce's character is on a mission to pickup a new crewmember,<BR>&gt; Jezebel, but Jezebel has "air/raftiphobia", and she's 14 days deep<BR>&gt; into the wilderness.&nbsp; Jez is going to insist on walking out rather<BR>&gt; than riding the _Walk_.&nbsp; Waiting on her for two weeks won't help the<BR>&gt; _Mae Lee's_ bottom line very much, but leaving her will cost them<BR>&gt; 50,000 credits.&nbsp; The ship's doctor is already thinking about ways to<BR>&gt; knock Jez out so she can be carried aboard and transported...shades<BR>&gt; of Mr. T!&nbsp; &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Don't you love it when a plan comes together? <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Eris<BR><BR>Oh, lordy, I'm the pilot; that makes me Murdock!!!<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:24:52 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas, <BR>&gt;&gt; Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively <BR>&gt;&gt; straightforward using RealBASIC.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I have also recently started a VB Traveller&nbsp; project&nbsp; (maybe&nbsp; its<BR>&gt; just that time of the year) and I may want to port it to&nbsp; obscure<BR>&gt; O/Ss like Mac ...&nbsp; what&nbsp; "Windowze-Only"&nbsp; features&nbsp; give&nbsp; porting<BR>&gt; problems?&nbsp; I'd like to&nbsp; avoid&nbsp; them&nbsp; if&nbsp; possible.&nbsp; (Also,&nbsp; I&nbsp; am<BR>&gt; storing data in an Access database [1]&nbsp; and&nbsp; using&nbsp; SQL&nbsp; commands<BR>&gt; where possible.&nbsp; Is their a Mac equivalent?)<BR><BR>Not with MS apps, there isn't.<BR><BR>As someone else mentioned FileMaker Pro (available from, amazingly enough, Filemaker.com ) will work.<BR><BR>Realbasic Pro comes with a SQL database component. Strictly sticking to SQL instead of Accmess should work.<BR><BR>I feel about Access what Frankie feels about VB, so I'll shut up now.<BR><BR>(All I can say is that a programmer that stored the data and the code together in one %$@#! file should be drug out, shot, revived, tenderly nursed back to health, and shot again.) <BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:30:20 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: V&amp;V Errata<BR><BR>Just noticed that page 12 of V&amp;V mislabelled the map.<BR>What it calls the Domain of Deneb, does not contain<BR>Deneb at all.&nbsp; ;-)<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:45:12 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: V&amp;V Errata<BR><BR>On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Just noticed that page 12 of V&amp;V mislabelled the map.<BR>&gt; What it calls the Domain of Deneb, does not contain<BR>&gt; Deneb at all.&nbsp; ;-)<BR><BR>Every time I see this subject line, I can't help but think, "What does<BR>Villains and Vigilantes have to do with Traveller?"<BR><BR>Kiri, lol<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:52:20 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: V&amp;V Errata<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Just noticed that page 12 of V&amp;V mislabelled the map.<BR>&gt;&gt; What it calls the Domain of Deneb, does not contain<BR>&gt;&gt; Deneb at all.&nbsp; ;-)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Every time I see this subject line, I can't help but think, "What does<BR>&gt;Villains and Vigilantes have to do with Traveller?"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Kiri, lol<BR><BR>I was wondering the same thing LOL 8P<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:00:26 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: V&amp;V Errata<BR><BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Every time I see this subject line, I can't help but think, "What does<BR>&gt; Villains and Vigilantes have to do with Traveller?"<BR><BR>Me too.&nbsp; Oh how I wish I had a copy still.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:54:26 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; htp wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; VB is, by any thorough and objective assessment, a piece of crap.<BR>&gt;&gt; It will open up programming to the masses, and give birth to <BR>&gt;&gt; generations of pathetic "programmers" who will churn out billions<BR>&gt;&gt; of lines of absolutely _shocking_ code.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I take it you miss the days where the&nbsp; only&nbsp; computers&nbsp; were&nbsp; big<BR>&gt; hulking mainframes&nbsp; tended&nbsp; to&nbsp; by&nbsp; acolyte-like&nbsp; operators,&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; dispise the personal computer (PC, Mac, etc) that gave&nbsp; computing<BR>&gt; power to the masses.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Computing *isn't* some sort&nbsp; of&nbsp; modern&nbsp; religion&nbsp; who's&nbsp; secrets<BR>&gt; should only be revealed to&nbsp; the&nbsp; privileged&nbsp; few&nbsp; who&nbsp; can&nbsp; prove<BR>&gt; themselves&nbsp; worthy!&nbsp; Anything&nbsp; (including&nbsp; VB)&nbsp; that&nbsp;&nbsp; opens&nbsp;&nbsp; up<BR>&gt; computing to the masses is a *good* thing.&nbsp; Yes, there will be&nbsp; a<BR>&gt; lot more third-rate programs flying about, but many&nbsp; more&nbsp; people<BR>&gt; than now will be empowered ... And at the end of the&nbsp; day&nbsp; that's<BR>&gt; the&nbsp; whole&nbsp; point&nbsp; of&nbsp; computing.&nbsp;&nbsp; Speaking&nbsp; as&nbsp; a&nbsp; professional<BR>&gt; programmer I think your ivory tower viewpoint does our profession<BR>&gt; a dis-service.<BR><BR>Sorry, but untill you know what you are doing you aren't "empowered".<BR>Instead, you are merely able to dig bigger and deeper holes that will<BR>require outside help to get out of.<BR><BR>Programming is a *skill*. A complex skill. And expecting Joe Blow to be<BR>able to do it without lots of training is doing him a *major*<BR>dis-service. <BR><BR>I agree that programming shouldn't be made overly complex. But<BR>over-simplification is usually *worse*. And one of the lessons that<BR>folks seem to have the hardest time picking up, even *with* some<BR>training is that details matter. <BR><BR>&gt;&gt; It is the _quality_ of code that is important, not the <BR>&gt;&gt; _quantity_ of code.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Piffle!&nbsp; Its&nbsp; the&nbsp; *utility*&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; code&nbsp; that&nbsp; is&nbsp; important.<BR>&gt; Quality code is worthless if it&nbsp; isn't&nbsp; useful&nbsp; to&nbsp; someone,&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; while bad quality code might not be as useful as it could&nbsp; be&nbsp; it<BR>&gt; can still be better than nothing.<BR><BR>I've had to rescue folks who were trying to program *far* beyond their<BR>skill level. And in their cases, poor programming was *worse* than<BR>nothing. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:12:10 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: V&amp;V Errata<BR><BR>&gt;Me too.&nbsp; Oh how I wish I had a copy still.<BR><BR>I noticed they had some for sale at Fantasy Games Unlimited's web site when <BR>I was there the other day:<BR><BR>http://www.fantasygamesunlimited.com/products14.htm#1401<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:40:40 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: VB comments (OT by the way)<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR>&nbsp; After seeing the comments being bandied about, I figured I'd put my two<BR>credits worth into the discussion...<BR><BR>First off - I went to school for programming.&nbsp; It turns out that I was<BR>unable to find a job in programming, and settled for working as a computer<BR>operator rather than move away from my family in pursuit of my dreams.<BR>I've been getting involved in Visual Basic via self-teaching.&nbsp; What I found<BR>was that until I've actually learned what it is that I need to know, I will<BR>*always* be programming at a level that is below what I want to be at.<BR>This means then, that I need to either read the manuals I've purchased, or<BR>ask some kindly soul "hey, how do you do this..." or "Hey, thanks for the<BR>tip, now tell me why that worked".<BR><BR>Secondly - What ceral do people eat?&nbsp; What?!!! We all don't eat the same<BR>ceral?&nbsp; Good Lord!&nbsp; What do you mean you don't eat a ceral from Kelloggs?<BR>Ahhhhhh, I see, different things appeal to different people right?&nbsp; And let<BR>me guess.&nbsp; There is your way, and then there is the right way (mine of<BR>course).&nbsp; That means that if you don't follow my way, you must be an idiot?<BR><BR>&nbsp; That secondly bit was heavy handed, and it wasn't intended to be<BR>specifically insulting.&nbsp; It was meant to show the "insulting" aspect of<BR>anyone who uses that train of thought.&nbsp; If VB is a grade schooler's<BR>language, then I guess I should be glad that there is in fact, a grade<BR>schooler's product out there, because I most certainly don't feel like<BR>trying to learn any of the other more complex languages on my own spare<BR>time.&nbsp; It would be a major pain in the buttocks for me to have to go to<BR>college again, spending a LOT of money learning how to use a "professional"<BR>language - just for hobby programming.&nbsp; Granted the version of Visual Basic<BR>I have is the industrial version &lt;grin&gt;, but I got it cheaply and legally.<BR>So - if you guys don't mind?<BR><BR>Either be part of the solution, or you are part of the problem.&nbsp; Instead of<BR>knocking those of us who want to create a program, help us.&nbsp; And if you<BR>feel that we need some extra help to achieve standards of programming you<BR>feel should exist - perhaps helping us by volunteering your time might not<BR>be a bad way to go.<BR><BR>1) you get access to products that may never, due to copyright reasons, see<BR>the light of day.<BR>2) you get that deep down good feeling of helping people to improve<BR>themselves and best of all?<BR>3) you come out looking like a nice guy &lt;grin&gt;.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:50:02 +0100<BR>From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sayat<BR><BR>Loren Wiseman wrote:<BR>&gt; I need the Sayat writeup immediately, or I'm going to have to drop it from<BR>&gt; the book -- CCing TML in case I don' have your correct e-mail address.<BR><BR>I don't know if I want Ian to send Loren the writeup or not...<BR><BR>Well, the Sayat really *should* be printed into canon. Please Ian, hurry...<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3751<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-ye05.mx.aol.com (rly-ye05.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.202]) by air-ye05.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:56:54 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye05.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:54:01 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA98146;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:50:25 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:49:10 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA98079<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:49:09 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:49:09 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102282049.PAA98079@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3751<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, February 28 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3752<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Sayat<BR>Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: OT:&nbsp; Now that was weird<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>RE: OT:&nbsp; Now that was weird<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Sayat<BR>=?utf-8?B?UkU6IE9UOiAgTm93IHRoYXQgd2FzIHdlaXJk?=<BR>Adjutant Products<BR>Re: Sayat<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:51:57 +0100<BR>From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sayat<BR><BR>Ian wrote:<BR>&gt; With much regret, I must tell you that you are going to have to drop it from<BR>&gt; the book.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Kenji did not appear to be completely happy with the IP implications of the<BR>&gt; Sayat turning up in a SJG product.<BR><BR>Darn!&nbsp; :-(<BR><BR>Well, the IP thing would have been rather messy...<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:36:38 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>By now, many of you have already heard about the 6.4 earthquake just<BR>southwest of Seattle this morning.&nbsp; We felt it all the way down here in<BR>Corvallis (OR), which is a good 250 miles south.&nbsp; Considering that this<BR>is only the 2nd earthquake powerful enough to be felt in over 10 years<BR>(in this location), you can just bet it'll be the topic of conversation for<BR>days to come. :^)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:51:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>Mark F. Cook writes:<BR>&gt; By now, many of you have already heard about the 6.4 earthquake just<BR>&gt; southwest of Seattle this morning.&nbsp; We felt it all the way down here in<BR>&gt; Corvallis (OR), which is a good 250 miles south.&nbsp; Considering that this<BR>&gt; is only the 2nd earthquake powerful enough to be felt in over 10 years<BR>&gt; (in this location), you can just bet it'll be the topic of conversation for<BR>&gt; days to come. :^)<BR><BR>More like 6.8.&nbsp; I know several people in the area, actually heard about the<BR>quake while it was happening.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:55:53 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: OT:&nbsp; Now that was weird<BR><BR>On 28 Feb 2001, at 7:24, Douglas Berry wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Perhaps you computer geniuses can help me with this.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The Shiny New Computer is up and running, and is everything I had hoped<BR>&gt; for.&nbsp; However, for the last two days, I was unable to post to the TML!&nbsp; I<BR>&gt; was getting messages, but nothing was posting.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I'm stumped.&nbsp; It didn't affect my other email lists..&nbsp; any clues?&nbsp; I'm<BR>&gt; using Eudora v3.0.3<BR><BR>No idea. Sounds like one of those things which a friend of mine calls "a <BR>computer thing" - something that won't work that suddenly fixes itself for no <BR>apparent reason.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:00:27 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>On 28 Feb 2001, at 13:36, Mark F. Cook wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; By now, many of you have already heard about the 6.4 earthquake just<BR>&gt; southwest of Seattle this morning.&nbsp; We felt it all the way down here in<BR>&gt; Corvallis (OR), which is a good 250 miles south.&nbsp; Considering that this<BR>&gt; is only the 2nd earthquake powerful enough to be felt in over 10 years<BR>&gt; (in this location), you can just bet it'll be the topic of conversation for days<BR>&gt; to come. :^)<BR><BR>It's things like this that make the Pacific Rim such an interesting place. :)<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:06:44 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; It's things like this that make the Pacific Rim such an interesting place.<BR>&gt; :) <BR><BR>Nod, if it weren't for the quakes the absence of tornadoes, hurricanes, and<BR>other interesting weather would make it positively boring.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:16:23 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; More like 6.8.<BR><BR>Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.<BR>Sounds like a small difference but the difference between<BR>a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:22:44 -0000<BR>From: "Alistair J. R. Young" &lt;avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: OT:&nbsp; Now that was weird<BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; No idea. Sounds like one of those things which a friend of mine calls<BR>"a <BR>&gt; computer thing" - something that won't work that suddenly <BR>&gt; fixes itself for no apparent reason.<BR><BR>Ah, a heisenbug!<BR><BR>Alistair<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:30:17 -0800<BR>From: Bill &lt;beast@aracnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>&gt;Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; More like 6.8.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.<BR>&gt;Sounds like a small difference but the difference between<BR>&gt;a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;bloo<BR><BR>The USGS is recording the quake as a 6.8 The epicenter is reported to <BR>be 11 miles NE of Olympia and is 25-29 miles underground.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:32:15 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Sayat<BR><BR>Ian or Katts wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; With much regret, I must tell you that you are going to have to drop it from the book.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Kenji did not appear to be completely happy with the IP implications of the Sayat turning up in a SJG<BR>&gt; product.<BR><BR>Great, so after all this time I've been a member of TML,<BR>I *still* have no idea what the Sayat are or aren't.&nbsp; I'm<BR>going to have to stop wondering what they are and start<BR>ignoring any references to them.<BR><BR>Since I doubt we're going to see GURPS Traveller: Sayat,<BR>what is Kenji worried about?&nbsp; Must the Sayat loiter in<BR>the purgatory for all non-canon material?<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:23:37 +1100 <BR>From: =?utf-8?B?UGF1bCBIYXJyaXM=?= &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: =?utf-8?B?UkU6IE9UOiAgTm93IHRoYXQgd2FzIHdlaXJk?=<BR><BR>As soon as you start looking at the problem, the nature of the problem<BR>changes....<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Alistair J. R. Young [mailto:avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk]<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 9:23 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: RE: OT: Now that was weird<BR><BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; No idea. Sounds like one of those things which a friend of mine calls<BR>"a <BR>&gt; computer thing" - something that won't work that suddenly <BR>&gt; fixes itself for no apparent reason.<BR><BR>Ah, a heisenbug!<BR><BR>Alistair<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:40:02 -0700<BR>From: "Eric T. Holmes" &lt;eholmes@lanl.gov&gt;<BR>Subject: Adjutant Products<BR><BR>Fellow TMLers:<BR><BR>I need to correspond with anyone who has any of these "Adjutant" vehicle<BR>products for Traveller and Striker:<BR><BR><BR>Air Cushion *<BR>Aircraft, Rotary &amp; Fixed Wing <BR>Exotic <BR>Grav *<BR>Infantry Weapons <BR>Orbital Assault &amp; Landing Craft *<BR>Track Laying <BR>Waterborne <BR>Wheeled Vehicles, Service/ Spt <BR>Wheeled, Combat <BR><BR>* High Priority<BR><BR>Thanks for your assistance.<BR><BR>Eric<BR><BR><BR>Eric T. Holmes<BR><BR>eholmes@lanl.gov &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; holmberg@thuntek.net <BR>7am to 4pm Mountain Time &nbsp; &nbsp; 6pm to Midnight Mountain Time<BR><BR>IMTU: he+, tc+, tm, tne, t4, tg, tt, to, ru, ge, 3i+, c+, jt, au, st, ls+,<BR>pi+, ta+, <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; as+, va+, dr+, sa, kk--, hi--, so++, zh, vi, da, sy, hu <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (sa = other sapients, hu = other humani)<BR><BR>Lacedaemon, we have done our duty.<BR><BR>"Any referee or gamemaster in a space based RPG that<BR>cannot wipe out an entire party of player characters<BR>without resorting to 'bad guys with guns' just isn't trying."<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:41:23 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sayat<BR><BR>Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ian or Katts wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; With much regret, I must tell you that you are going to have to drop it from the book.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Kenji did not appear to be completely happy with the IP implications of the Sayat turning up in a SJG<BR>&gt;&gt; product.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Great, so after all this time I've been a member of TML,<BR>&gt; I *still* have no idea what the Sayat are or aren't.&nbsp; I'm<BR>&gt; going to have to stop wondering what they are and start<BR>&gt; ignoring any references to them.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Since I doubt we're going to see GURPS Traveller: Sayat,<BR>&gt; what is Kenji worried about?&nbsp; Must the Sayat loiter in<BR>&gt; the purgatory for all non-canon material?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; bloo<BR><BR>You asked for it. Don't say I didn't warn you. Do not open the Happy Fun <BR>ball. Do not allow the Happy Fun Ball to remain in contact with the <BR>skin. Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball<BR><BR>herewith, the Sayat: (somewhat mangled in formatting)<BR><BR>===================================================================================<BR><BR>From kenji@accessone.com Sat May&nbsp; 3 08:44:58 1997<BR>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:44:06 -0800<BR>From: Kenji Schwarz &lt;kenji@accessone.com&gt;<BR>Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM<BR>To: traveller@MPGN.COM<BR>Subject: Contact: Sayat (I: Biology)<BR><BR>Turns out that in the fermenting vacuity of my head, I have a *lot* of<BR>detail accreting around the idea of a 'Hiveroid' minor race of humaniti.&nbsp; I<BR>thought I'd start writing it up as a series of shorter, sub-topical posts<BR>and see if people are interested in reading more.<BR><BR>At this point, I haven't given the species an astrographical location -- an<BR>isolated cluster of 2-3 systems someplace to trailing of the Imperium makes<BR>the most sense, but they were originally (mis)conceived of as a Zhodani<BR>client state, so I'm still trying to think up a rationale for how that<BR>could be explained.<BR><BR>Further 'chapters' I have in mind would be II: Modern Society, III:<BR>Homeworld, IV: History, V: Politics; VI: Adventure Hooks.<BR><BR>I've borrowed quite a few ideas from various sources, both published and<BR>not; hopefully it will be obvious where I've done so, and credit is due to<BR>my sources.&nbsp; Generally, I've tried not to point out what aspects of the<BR>Sayat are Hiver-influenced and which might be 'native', but rather to<BR>present observations and comparisons and leave the whole thing a bit<BR>mysterious.<BR><BR>I really encourage people to respond and comment on this, either on the<BR>list or by email.&nbsp; I'm pretty flame-retardant (flame-retarded?) and think<BR>the best criticism can often be the harshest criticism, so pull no punches.<BR>Biology is not my strong field by any means -- I'd especially like to hear<BR>corrections and new ideas from those on the list who are more knowledgable<BR>about this than I.<BR><BR>********************************************************************************<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The Sayat<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; A Minor Race of Humaniti<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Part I:&nbsp; Biology<BR><BR>The Sayat are a subspecies of humaniti found on Marhach (Milieu 0 UPP<BR>A665887-A ?), a cold but essentially Earthlike planet located well beyond<BR>the Imperial frontier.<BR><BR>APPEARANCE:<BR>The Sayat are somewhat smaller than the typical Solomani or Vilani --<BR>averaging 1.6 m tall, and massing approximately 55 kg.&nbsp; They have slender<BR>frames and long limbs; while their fingers are exceptionally long, the<BR>palms and feet are disproportionately small.<BR><BR>Skulls are brachycephalic, with generally round or oval upper faces, high<BR>cheekbones, and a slightly triangular, pointed jaw and chin structure.<BR>Their convex, high-bridged noses are fairly small but well-adapted to<BR>warming air.&nbsp; Eyes are markedly large, exhibit reflective retinas (like<BR>Terran cats or dogs), have large dark irises and minimal albumen, and are<BR>protected from cold and snow by thick, heavy lashes.<BR><BR>Dentition is slightly different than that found in the Solomani and Vilani<BR>strains of humaniti:&nbsp;&nbsp; the Sayat lack "wisdom teeth," and their first<BR>semimolars (both uper and lower) are canine in form.&nbsp; In general, the teeth<BR>are smaller and harder than those of other humans.<BR><BR>Hair is coarse, thick, straight, and jet black in color, slightly<BR>bluish-tinged.&nbsp; With age, it greys and eventually turns a snowy white.<BR>Despite the cool climate of the world, they have minimal facial and body<BR>hair.<BR><BR>The Sayat have a generous layer of subcutaneous fat, which provides<BR>insulation on their cold homeworld -- and in emergencies, can readily be<BR>converted into energy.&nbsp; This layer gives them a sleek, rounded appearance,<BR>despite their thin frames.<BR><BR>Their homeworld orbits a cooler star than Sol, but due to its thin<BR>atmosphere (almost lacking an ultraviolet ray-blocking layer) and weak<BR>electromagnetic field, the planet is a relatively high-radiation<BR>environment.&nbsp; Accordingly, Sayat 'pseudomelanin' (biochemically distinct<BR>from the melanin found in both Solomani and Vilani subspecies) is an<BR>efficient absorber of UV radiation and producer of necessary vitamin D.<BR>This pseudomelanin imparts a coppery skin complexion with a distinct<BR>reddish tint.&nbsp; When exposed to sunlight for any length of time, the Sayat<BR>tan to a vivid dark russet color.&nbsp; Nicknames for the Sayat among their<BR>interstellar neighbors often refer to this feature.<BR><BR>Another physiological change from the original human template is the<BR>so-called "muting" of the vocal apparatus.&nbsp; Essentially, Sayat vocal cords<BR>do not vibrate except under extreme stress (i.e., shouting, screaming),<BR>preventing the production of normal speech sounds.&nbsp; Rather, the Sayat<BR>"whisper."&nbsp; This feature has had significant effect on their language and<BR>communication habits; however, they are not strictly speaking mute.<BR><BR>PHYSIOLOGY:<BR>Due to the lower gravity of their homeworld, Sayat are typically a little<BR>less muscular than the human norm; however, they have slightly faster<BR>reaction times.&nbsp; They do have measurably greater endurance and stamina than<BR>the Solomani or Vilani, but their strange circadian rhythms may cause<BR>exhaustion at inopportune times, even after adaptation to a local standard.<BR>Tolerance for low temperatures is usually much greater than usual for<BR>Solomani or Vilani.&nbsp; They may find dense atmospheres, particularly those<BR>with a high oxygen content, difficult to breathe.<BR><BR>There is an extremely high occurance of left-handedness or ambidexterity in<BR>the population -- in fact, only about 30-40% of the population is strongly<BR>right-handed.&nbsp; A similar feature is found among the Darrian of the Spinward<BR>Marches, in whose case it is hypothesized that a much larger than average<BR>bridge between the two lobes of the brain contributes to their increased<BR>inventiveness, imagination, and mathematical, musical, and artistic<BR>ability.&nbsp; The same might be supposed of the Sayat, though these qualities<BR>are not the overt cultural fixation that they are for the Darrian.&nbsp; In any<BR>case, tools and implements are customarily designed to be used with either<BR>hand.<BR><BR>SENSES are roughly equivalent to those of other subspecies of humaniti,<BR>though vision is adapted to lower levels of light (c. 52% of Terra's).<BR>Accordingly, glare-cutting prostheses are standard wear in local daytime<BR>(especially in snowy or icy terrain) and even in Terran-normal lighting<BR>conditions; night-vision is superior to Solomani and Vilani.&nbsp; A form of<BR>color-blindness (or color-vagueness) is quite common in varying degrees.<BR>Sense of smell and taste is slightly less acute than the human norm as<BR>well; hearing tends to be sharper.<BR><BR>BIOCHEMICAL and cellular-level changes due to geneering are quite extensive.<BR><BR>The Sayat have several unusual or unique enzymes which aid in protein<BR>synthesis; they are able to metabolize one extra amino acid, apparently<BR>native to their homeworld.&nbsp; Related to this biochemistry is a<BR>characteristic body odor, which is cannot be perceived by many humans.<BR>Other species may be able to quite well, however; the Vargr tend to find<BR>the smell pleasant (perhaps contributing to their tendency to regard many<BR>Sayat as having high 'charisma'); the K'kree, on the other hand, find the<BR>Sayat odor highly offensive and nauseating ("like wet blood").<BR><BR>Sayat blood types (A, N, O, S, Z) are often compatible or semi-compatible<BR>with a few Solomani, one Vilani, and several Zhodani types.<BR><BR>Their lungs are human-sized, but have a more efficient oxygen-extracting<BR>mechanism, permitting normal activity in their slightly thinner and<BR>oxygen-poor atmosphere.<BR><BR>There is somewhat greater reiteration of genes than in most human species,<BR>providing good "backup" against genetic damage by virus or radiation.<BR>This is an unusual feature in modern geneered species, and serves as the<BR>basis for speculation that the Sayat are one of Grandfather's experiments,<BR>and were not created by the Hiver and/or Solomani in more recent times.<BR><BR>REPRODUCTION:<BR>The most obvious change, and in some respects the most drastic change, from<BR>the human norm is in the realm of reproduction.&nbsp; The Sayat are a<BR>monosexual, homozygotic species.&nbsp; Two ova from different individuals are<BR>able to merge and form a fertilized embryo; mechanical means must be used<BR>to introduce one ovum into the uterus of the birth parent.&nbsp; Normally ova of<BR>a single individual are incapable of fertilizing one another, but<BR>exceptions are not unheard of, and as a result, spontaneous pregnancies are<BR>account for perhaps 1 in 100,000 births.&nbsp; Such parthenogenetic children are<BR>genetically identical copies of their birth parent.&nbsp;&nbsp; Live offspring are<BR>born after a gestation period of about 258.5&nbsp; standard days.&nbsp; Multiple<BR>births are extremely rare -- maybe one in ten million.&nbsp; They are not<BR>inter-fertile with other human species (either males or females).<BR><BR>Fertility -- or at least successful impregnation -- is relatively low, and<BR>the natural rate of population growth is slow.&nbsp;&nbsp; While this hampers<BR>expansion on the interstellar scale, it has slowed the pace of development<BR>so that the integration and efficiency of the homeworld and of colonies is<BR>very high.&nbsp; Perhaps due to the long lack of other human species to which to<BR>compare themselves, they see nothing wrong with their rate of population<BR>growth, and have never particularly sought to increase fertility by medical<BR>or social means.<BR><BR>LIFESPAN:<BR>A biochemical mechanism similar to that present in the Vlazhdumecta give a<BR>lifespan considerably longer than the human norm.&nbsp; In premodern times,<BR>natural lifespans of 80 years were normal; at the current state of medical<BR>science, this has been pushed up to 100 years as the average.&nbsp; They have<BR>not (yet) produced anything directly equivalent to the anagathic treatments<BR>known to some other human subspecies, however.&nbsp; Senescence usually does not<BR>start until about the age of 60 (coinciding with menopause), and is very<BR>limited until the last 2-3 years of life -- during which time the physical<BR>and mental breakdown is quite rapid.&nbsp; As among the Vlazhdumecta, this is<BR>usually the signal for suicide.<BR><BR>Puberty and mental maturity usually begins around the age of 15, and full<BR>physical maturity is reached in about 5 years.&nbsp; In this regard, they are<BR>somewhat slower to mature than many other subspecies of humaniti of a<BR>comparable level of socio-technological development<BR><BR>DIET:<BR>The Sayat are omnivorous, tending towards carnivorism -- and traditionally,<BR>blood-drinking.&nbsp; One of their enzymatic adaptations allows digestion of a<BR>native Marhachian amino acid (otherwise unusable), after it has been<BR>semi-metabolized into the blood of other geneered Terran organisms present<BR>on the planet.&nbsp; Thus, the ancient Sayat herding economy is based on the<BR>production of blood as much as of milk and meat.&nbsp; Animal blood is still a<BR>traditional, ceremonial drink in Sayat culture, serving something of the<BR>same function that champagne has in Solomani culture.<BR><BR>Generally speaking, Sayat are able to extract nutrition from a fairly wide<BR>variety of biochemistries; greater than is typical for humaniti, in any<BR>case.&nbsp; A flexible metabolism permits easy and safe fluctuation between<BR>fasting and feasting; the lipids used for energy storage in the Sayat body<BR>are efficient and rapidly convertible back into energy.&nbsp; Even without<BR>advance preparation, a Sayat in good health can often go without food for<BR>up to a standard week and suffer negligible ill effects.&nbsp; Their metabolism<BR>is also able to step up into a faster-burning, high-energy level, which<BR>permits comfortable activity in cold climates with limited technological<BR>assistance, so long as a steady supply of food is available.&nbsp; Sayat who are<BR>in this "prolonged overdrive" are constantly nibbling on something.<BR><BR>In general, Sayat gain and loose weight rapidly, and it shows up clearly in<BR>their appearance.&nbsp; Much small talk and polite conversation in Sayat society<BR>revolves around commenting on one another's plumpness or bonyness.<BR><BR>REST:<BR>Their home planet has an extremely slow period of axial revolution -- just<BR>over 103 standard hours.&nbsp; The Sayat have adapted to this environment by<BR>largely doing away with anything recognizable as a circadian rhythm.<BR>Season and lattitude (lighting levels) and temperature affect these<BR>patterns, but it is hard to predict any individual's activity.&nbsp; In any<BR>given period of 103 hours, a Sayat will sleep for 39, engage in<BR>low-activity rest and relaxation for 20, work for 32, and have one or more<BR>shorter bursts of intense work activity totalling 12 hours -- on the<BR>average.&nbsp; Note that the metabolic flexibility and greater stamina permits<BR>extremely prolonged periods of exercise -- 24 hour work shifts are not<BR>considered particularly onerous by most Sayat (though they're not popular,<BR>either).<BR><BR>PSIONICS:<BR>The Sayat seem to have approximately the same frequency and levels of<BR>psionic talents as other branches of humaniti.&nbsp; As with the Zhodani,<BR>though, early childhood screening and training causes more talented<BR>individuals to be found, creating the impression of there being 'more<BR>psionics' in the Sayat subspecies.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>From kenji@accessone.com Fri May&nbsp; 9 10:49:27 1997<BR>Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:01:32 -0800<BR>From: Kenji Schwarz &lt;kenji@accessone.com&gt;<BR>Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM<BR>To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM<BR>Subject: Contact: The Sayat (II: Society)<BR><BR>Here's yet more Sayatiana, freshly coughed up and transcribed.&nbsp; As before,<BR>comments are most welcome.&nbsp; Hell, it's *for* the comments that I'm posting<BR>all this junk.<BR>*****************************************<BR><BR>WORLD BUILDERS' HANDBOOK DESCRIPTION<BR>Social Outlook:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Progressiveness: Progressive attitude, advancing activity<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Agressiveness:&nbsp;&nbsp; Defensive attitude, militant activity<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Extensiveness:&nbsp;&nbsp; Harmonious attitude, friendly activity<BR><BR>Legal Profile:&nbsp; Undivided uniformity<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Overall :&nbsp;&nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Personal Freedom:&nbsp; 5<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Weapons :&nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Trade:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 8<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Criminal:&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Civil:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 9<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Somewhat xenophobic; effective +1 law level for foreigners<BR><BR>Cultural Aspects:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Individuality:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Some compulsory collective action<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Social Mobility:&nbsp; &nbsp; Minimal distinctions of social class<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phys. Mobility:&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Global travel common; "global village" <BR>communications<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Worldview:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Primarily rational, with some holdovers of <BR>superstition<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Emotionalism:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Free expression except in front of strangers<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Gender Discrimination:&nbsp; n/a<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Wealth:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Acquired by law; equal incomes<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Privacy:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Actions open to scrutiny at will by certain <BR>agencies<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Modesty/Body Zone:&nbsp; Moderate coverage mandatory (body zone almost <BR>touching)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Value of Sentient Life: Death penalty outlawed<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Value of Other Life:&nbsp; All is for human use, but should be humanely <BR>treated<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Child-Rearing:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Group responsibility (commune)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Honesty:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Widely accepted ethical code; offenders despised<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Work Ethic:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Work is an end in itself, a source of pleasure<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Time:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Schedules are flexible<BR><BR>Government Authority:&nbsp;&nbsp; Civil Service Bureaucracy; several councils (all<BR>branches).<BR><BR>*********************************<BR><BR>Sayat social structure and social philosophy are uncannily similar to Hiver<BR>patterns, giving rise to the theory (and widespread popular belief) that<BR>they are the product of a large-scale Hiver "manipulation."<BR><BR>STRUCTURE:<BR>Like the Hiver, individuals live in 'nests' sharing a broad focus of<BR>economic activity or interest (usually), and in which wealth and belongings<BR>are owned communally.&nbsp; The nest is the basic unit of society, rather than<BR>the family (nuclear or otherwise).&nbsp; It is true that in some respects the<BR>nest is similar to the extended family in other human societies, and it is<BR>likely that in earlier times, the 'nest' bore more resemblence to a 'clan,'<BR>with its emphasis on consanguity and shared descent.<BR><BR>Most nests are part of larger 'hives,' the rough equivalents of cities,<BR>corporations, or nations.&nbsp; Governmental structures (both civilian and<BR>military) are also considered nests and hives, and are not particularly<BR>distinguished from other specialized units.<BR><BR>Mobility among nests (and to a slightly lesser extent, hives) is quite high<BR>in the modern era.&nbsp; Most Sayat change their nest affiliation after reaching<BR>maturity and having finished the mandatory stint of 'national service;'<BR>many go on to switch affiliation several times in the course of their life.<BR>Individuals may also live and work separately from their primary nest<BR>affiliation for extended periods of time.<BR><BR>While there are some who shift from nest to nest, sometimes even having<BR>concurrent membership in several, there are no Sayat who are 'nestless'.<BR>Occasionally someone will claim to be without a nest affiliation; other<BR>Sayat, however, will not recognize this claim, and go on treating such an<BR>individual (who is probably mentally ill) as a member of the appropriate<BR>nest and hive.&nbsp; The nest-hive structure of society is so fundamental to<BR>Sayat culture that someone who is not part of it is, almost by definition,<BR>not Sayat -- and possibly a menace to the common good.<BR><BR>GOVERNMENT:<BR>This is best described as a 'civil service bureaucracy'.&nbsp; There is a single<BR>large hive which can be called 'the Government,' which fulfills all the<BR>functions of the 'state' in other human societies, as well as playing many<BR>additional roles.&nbsp; The 'Government Hive' is made up of a large number of<BR>smaller, specialized nests, each one focused on a particular aspect or<BR>function of managing society and furthering the advance of civilization.<BR>This hive acts as the chief mechanism for redistributing capital within the<BR>economy; it "taxes" other hives and after using this wealth to support its<BR>own activities, "invests" or "subsidizes" those of others.&nbsp; Large amounts<BR>of public work is handled by "subcontracting" in this manner, and the line<BR>between "public" and "private" endeavours is often so blurry as to be not<BR>worth examining.<BR><BR>Forcing Sayat political systems into our own molds, one can view this hive<BR>as the executive branch of government; it also has a great deal of what we<BR>might call legislative and judicial authority.&nbsp; However, the legislative<BR>branch is supplemented by frequent recourse to public debate and referenda<BR>- -- and given the indistinctness of the public versus private spheres,<BR>legislation is highly sensitive to the groundswell or undercurrent of<BR>popular opinion.<BR><BR>The judicial powers and duties of the state work in tandem with the<BR>'judges' or 'mediators' -- private individuals who, based on their<BR>expertise in law and rhetoric, can be called in (or may independently<BR>intercede) to settle conflict between individuals or groups in society.<BR>While these 'judges' are entirely separate from the governmental structure<BR>proper, and do not form specialized 'judicial nests' of their own, they<BR>maintain fairly tight professional links with one another, and can be<BR>considered a sort of parallel political agency, largely free of state<BR>oversight.<BR><BR>ECONOMY AND BUSINESS:<BR>The modern Sayat economy grew out of a communal, redistributive economy,<BR>where the fundamental socioeconomic unit was the 'proto-nest' or (putative)<BR>'clan.'&nbsp; Claims to territory (grazing circuits, hunting territories,<BR>fishing grounds) and the ownership of livestock and enclosures were all<BR>held by the community as a whole, rather than individuals or families.<BR>With technological advances and the&nbsp; development of a global culture, the<BR>precursors of the 'hive' arose to coordinate the more complex interactions,<BR>and something best described as a 'command economy' resulted.&nbsp; Sayat<BR>economic thought has only vague, crude ideas of a 'free market', though<BR>recent contact with other civilizations is slowly beginning to produce<BR>changes in the way they see their economy.<BR><BR>Property and capital is still owned communally, by the nests and hives.<BR>While individual Sayat do have personal belongings and limited amounts of<BR>wealth, their daily needs (food, housing, clothing, transportation, medical<BR>care, power, communications, etc.) are all furnished by the collective.<BR>Long-term projects and investments are undertaken entirely by groups, and<BR>not by individuals.&nbsp; Individuals who are in some way 'over-achievers,' who<BR>are a particular asset to their collective, do get many perks (prime<BR>housing, use of personal vehicles, servants, access to a bigger 'credit<BR>line' and more 'pocket money,' etc.) but have no more inalienable, personal<BR>property than anyone else.&nbsp; Those on the opposite end of the truncated<BR>Sayat social ladder will get stuck with less desireable housing and find<BR>their hive or nest somewhat less willing to pay for their luxuries.<BR><BR>The Sayat were slow in developing a monetary economy; it arose entirely out<BR>of the need to coordinate the activities of independent, hive-sized<BR>collectives in the early modern period.&nbsp; Even today, within a large hive<BR>there is very little exchange carried out with money (either cash or<BR>electronic); most is done by a complicated system of barter and contract,<BR>if need for accounting is perceived at all.&nbsp; Much is done essentially<BR>gratis, 'for the common good.'&nbsp; Within nests, what few transactions take<BR>place are entirely non-monetary.<BR><BR>Various nests and hives are heavily involved in specific industries or<BR>economic activities.&nbsp; Through de facto monopolies and de jure agreements<BR>with the state, many have quasi-governmental authority in their fields of<BR>interest.&nbsp; Any enterprise that is necessary to a significant part of the<BR>population, or is important to them, is certain to be run as a 'public<BR>utility' through some combination of direct governmental control and<BR>'subcontracted' responsibility.&nbsp; Again, the public-private distinction is<BR>fuzzy; the Sayat are not familiar with the concept, in any case.<BR><BR>CHILD-REARING is one aspect of society that differs from the Hiver model,<BR>obviously.&nbsp; While the Sayat are highly K-selected (even more than most<BR>human subspecies), the Hiver are completely the opposite.<BR><BR>Each Sayat nest has a communal nursery and school in which all children<BR>live, are raised, and are educated.&nbsp; Professional caretakers and teachers<BR>do most of the work, but the nest as a whole is constantly and deeply<BR>involved in the child-rearing process -- a Hiver-like "parental instinct"<BR>has largely replaced the human "reproductive instinct."&nbsp; The parent-child<BR>bond is very weak; it is considered a sign of neurosis (at least) for<BR>parents to be possessive or even partial towards their "own" children --<BR>and, vice versa, for children to fixate on their mothers.&nbsp; Rather, adults<BR>exhibit a generalized pride and possessive attitude towards the sum of the<BR>children of their nest and hive.<BR><BR>In larger hives, the component nests often do not maintain their own<BR>nurseries, but there are commonly-shared nurseries for the use of all nests<BR>in a given district or neighborhood.&nbsp; In modern times, the government has<BR>stepped in to regulate child care and education, so as to ensure<BR>standardization of the culture and knowledge imparted.<BR><BR>Infants are not considered "pests" as among the Hiver, but the Sayat do<BR>lack much of the sentimentality of most other human societies toward<BR>children and childhood.&nbsp; For example, in dire emergencies where only some<BR>portion of a group can be saved, the Sayat will gladly sacrifice children<BR>- -- the youngest ones first -- while concentrating on rescuing adults and<BR>the elderly.&nbsp; The Sayat consider that less has been 'invested' in the<BR>young, and being easier to replace than their elders, they are more<BR>disposable.<BR><BR>SEX:&nbsp; This one I leave to the readers' surely fertile imaginations.<BR>"Unusually long fingers" and "mechanical assistance" has already been<BR>introduced; 'muff said.&nbsp; A couple general thoughts, though.<BR><BR>Due to Sayat biology, there's no connection between having sex and having<BR>babies.&nbsp; The first is a matter of entertainment and social bonding with<BR>other adult individuals; the latter, of bonding to your nest, of<BR>contributing to posterity.<BR><BR>Sayat feel strongly that children belong with other children, under the<BR>supervision and care of the nest's nursery/school system, so childbearing<BR>and rearing is far less of a burden on individual parents than in most<BR>other human societies.<BR><BR>Pair-bonding does occur among Sayat, but such 'mated' individuals are not<BR>especially likely to have children with one another (rather than with<BR>anyone else), nor are they expected to; even sexual activity is not a<BR>given, for that matter.&nbsp; There are innumerable other forms of 'personal<BR>relationships'; it is hard to make any generalizations on the matter, for<BR>the reason that the Sayat simply don't attach much importance to such<BR>matters.&nbsp; The key emotional bond for a Sayat is with her nest (and by<BR>extension her hive); colleagues, friends, coworkers,&nbsp; and lovers are not<BR>the less important, but viewed as more transitory, casual, and open to<BR>consideratiosn of expediency.<BR><BR>CULTURAL POLICY:<BR>Like the Hiver, they seek to ensure linguistic and cultural homogeneity: a<BR>broad, fundamental body of shared assumptions, knowledge, and attitudes.<BR>The Sayat regard this as the only possible basis for individuality and<BR>personal freedom -- it provides a common ground for communication,<BR>throughout all of Sayat society, without distinctions of region, social<BR>status, economic power, or the like.&nbsp; To this end, travel and mass<BR>communication are widely encouraged and subsidized by Sayat hives and<BR>nests, particularly the governmental ones.&nbsp; Something very similar to Hiver<BR>"embassies" are found in the form of exchanges, delegations, conferences,<BR>tour groups and the like; the emphasis on exchanging genetic material is<BR>much muted and less conscious, though not entirely absent.<BR><BR>EDUCATION:<BR>The Sayat place an enormous amount of importance on education.&nbsp; The<BR>'nurseries' bear more resemblance to boarding schools; formal teaching<BR>begins at age four, and children are not released from the custodianship of<BR>the nursery until their fifteenth year.&nbsp; For historical reasons, the Sayat<BR>are fairly militaristic, and two years of (ground) military training is<BR>mandatory at this point, followed by another two years of service in the<BR>ground forces, further training in the space forces, or work and education<BR>in some field of 'social importance' -- medicine, disaster readiness,<BR>construction, law enforcement, agriculture and ranching, ditch-digging, or<BR>anything else.&nbsp; Advanced education is then an option which many Sayat take.<BR>Many continue involvement in formal educational programs for decades, as<BR>continuing or returning students.<BR><BR>Numerous specialized schools, institutes, academies, and research centers<BR>exist, again set up on the nest-hive model.&nbsp; At the post-secondary level,<BR>there is generally little formal distinction between "research" and<BR>"teaching;" much of the work at such institutions involves mentoring<BR>arrangements, somewhat similar to apprenticeships.&nbsp; The casual student will<BR>keep her own nest/hive affiliation while attending, and the dedicated<BR>scholar will join the nest/hive as a new member.<BR><BR>PSIONICS:<BR>Despite the prevalence of superstition in the culture, psionics have never<BR>been considered as anything other than phenomena subject to rational,<BR>scientific investigation and application.&nbsp; While psionics do not determine<BR>social status as among the Zhodani (or even Vlazhdumecta), psionic testing<BR>is given to all children, and those who have such talents are given the<BR>necessary training and education to develop and use it.&nbsp; They then go on to<BR>take up roles in society where their talents will be of use -- psychology,<BR>investigation, hazardous materials handling, search and rescue, etc.&nbsp; There<BR>is no particular fear or reverence shown to psionics in society.&nbsp; The<BR>number of psionically-talented individuals is perhaps slightly higher than<BR>among "normal" human populations, but not greatly so, and this may be a<BR>function of careful testing being able to catch a greater number of natural<BR>talents.<BR><BR>DEMOGRAPHICS:<BR>Like the Hiver, Sayat prefer to live in large, compact urban complexes.<BR>Single-building city-arcologies are unknown, but urban buildings do tend to<BR>be enormous and multi-use.&nbsp; The distribution of population among the cities<BR>is fairly even; there is no clear "megapolis" or "main city" on the planet.<BR><BR><BR>Six large cities (with populations between 20 and 60 million) are present<BR>on the surface of Marhach; an additional 35-40 smaller cities, each with<BR>several million inhabitants, are scattered around the planet.&nbsp; There are<BR>relatively few small cities and towns; less than 9% of the planet's<BR>population lives in such settlements.<BR><BR>However, it is customary to maintain rural cottages, resort villages,<BR>camps, dachas, spas, and the like, either individually or as a group; one's<BR>time is often split between "city" and "country" in this way, depending on<BR>the season, work necessities, and personal preference.&nbsp; For all but a<BR>handful of modern Sayat, one's primary affiliation is considered to be with<BR>the city, rather than the country.<BR><BR>Although farming and ranching are considerably more land-extensive than<BR>among the Hiver, there are still large expanses of "wilderness" territory<BR>on the planet.&nbsp; Small numbers of Sayat continue to live the traditional,<BR>nomadic pastoralist lifestyle.&nbsp; In all, no more than 1% of the planetary<BR>population can be considered rural.<BR><BR>*********************<BR>Kenji Schwarz<BR>kenji@accessone.com<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3752<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; 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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (rly-yd03.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.3]) by air-yd03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:44:08 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:43:31 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA03345;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:41:51 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:41:34 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA03293<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:41:34 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:41:34 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200102282241.RAA03293@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3752<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3753</B></TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, March 1 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3753<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Sayat<BR>re: Sayat<BR>Re: JTAS question<BR>Re: V&amp;V Errata<BR>Re: OT:&nbsp; Now that was weird<BR>Re: V&amp;V Errata<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: test<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: What could go wrong?<BR>Re: V&amp;V<BR>Downport down?<BR>Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Downport down?<BR>Re: Downport down?<BR>Re: writing programs...<BR>Re: Adjutant Products<BR>RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3750<BR>RE: V&amp;V Errata<BR>RE: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>RE: VB comments (OT by the way)<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:17:22 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sayat<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; herewith, the Sayat: (somewhat mangled in formatting)<BR><BR>Thanks!!!!<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:17:43 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Sayat<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Great, so after all this time I've been a member of TML,<BR>&gt;I *still* have no idea what the Sayat are or aren't.&nbsp; <BR><BR>The Sayat are a minor race of some sort that are fascinated with<BR>pelvic-mounted thrusters ... er, weapons systems.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:44:38 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: JTAS question<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Was the Contact: Darrians article from JTAS #14 reprinted in Best <BR>&gt; of JTAS #4?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Yes, according to the _Traveller Periodical Bibliography_.&nbsp; no.4,<BR>pp.8-10<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Does that help?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; tc<BR><BR>Yes, it does.&nbsp; Many thanks.<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:55:05 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: V&amp;V Errata<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Every time I see this subject line, I can't help but think, "What <BR>&gt; does<BR>&gt; &gt; Villains and Vigilantes have to do with Traveller?"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Me too.&nbsp; Oh how I wish I had a copy still.<BR><BR>Heh.&nbsp; I have *three*.&nbsp; (Hey, they were cheap, and it was useful to have<BR>extra copies to loan to the players)<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:07:12 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: OT:&nbsp; Now that was weird<BR><BR>At 7:24 AM -0800 2/28/01, Douglas Berry wrote:<BR>&gt;Perhaps you computer geniuses can help me with this.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The Shiny New Computer is up and running, and is everything I had hoped<BR>&gt;for.&nbsp; However, for the last two days, I was unable to post to the TML!&nbsp; I<BR>&gt;was getting messages, but nothing was posting.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I'm stumped.&nbsp; It didn't affect my other email lists..&nbsp; any clues?&nbsp; I'm<BR>&gt;using Eudora v3.0.3<BR><BR>Does the "From:" Address match the one you are subscribed to the <BR>mailing list under?<BR><BR>TML doesn't allow posting from unsubscribed addresses.&nbsp; If I post, I <BR>have to be careful to post from my MIT alumni address rather than <BR>from my work addess....<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:54:03 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: V&amp;V Errata<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Just noticed that page 12 of V&amp;V mislabelled the map.<BR>&gt; &gt; What it calls the Domain of Deneb, does not contain<BR>&gt; &gt; Deneb at all.&nbsp; ;-)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Every time I see this subject line, I can't help but think, "What <BR>&gt; does Villains and Vigilantes have to do with Traveller?"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Kiri, lol<BR><BR>Thank you, Lord!&nbsp; I'm not the only one!&nbsp; :-)<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:53:58 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Andrew<BR>&gt; Moffatt-Vallance<BR>&gt; Sent: 28 February 2001 06:45<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR>&gt;<BR>[snip]<BR>&gt; But surely thats a training issue, rather than a language<BR>&gt; issue. It would be<BR>&gt; quite possible to give someone minimal training in Delphi,<BR>&gt; set them lose<BR>&gt; and watch them generate code from hell. In this case it<BR>&gt; seems more like<BR>&gt; there are a lot of poorly trained VB programmers than any<BR>&gt; failing of the<BR>&gt; language (uhmm, a definite market niche, more reasons to learn VB).<BR>&gt;<BR>Any programmer can make bad code (and that is the problem, remember).<BR>The problem with VB is that it encourages bad code - in fact some of<BR>the rapid development tools plugged into it actually _produce_ bad<BR>code automatically. Training means that you know how to avoid - but<BR>not always replace - bad code, so it helps. Unfortunately, VB remains<BR>a bad choice for mission-critical software just because it is so easy<BR>to write bad code with.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:21:43 -0800<BR>From: "Thing" &lt;thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>Yeah, I was at work in my new building in Freemont (A Seattle<BR>neighborhood/burrough/district).&nbsp; Our nice building swayed for a minute or<BR>two but sailed through nicely.&nbsp; My wifes building south of downtown lost<BR>power &amp; being a scarey converted old warehouse shook and had lights and such<BR>fall.<BR><BR>I was kind of amazed with how we both made it through just fine but because<BR>we couldn't get phone calls to each other and cell service was pretty much<BR>down we coudn't know for sure until we made it to the Ferry dock to meet up.<BR>The ferry dock got messed up a good bit, and it took a while to get home.<BR>It's kinda weird to be deprived of all the high tech means of communication.<BR><BR>On the plus side the buses and ferries where free rides for Earthquake day!<BR><BR>G.D.D.<BR>ThingUnderTheStairs.<BR>===============<BR>"As far as I'm concerned, being any gender is a drag." -Patti Smith<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:27:12 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;The smallest THe legal CG gear weighs 20kg, has a volume of 30L and<BR>costs<BR>&gt;Cr3000. It also works on a volume of 1.4 m^3, which will tend to make<BR>carrying<BR>&gt;it "interesting".<BR><BR>Oops, forgot about that.(Too long since working with TNE FF&amp;S)<BR><BR>Charles H<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:16:30 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>Henry (htp &lt;htp@metropolis.net.au&gt;) wrote:<BR>[snips an extremely vitriolic response on VB]<BR><BR>Gee, Henry, don't hold back or anything! Let us know your true feelings<BR>about VB. ("Cat's and dogs, living together", etc etc).<BR><BR><BR>Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or<BR>Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.<BR><BR>;-)<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material &amp; opinions contained within are solely those<BR>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:20:48 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: Re: test<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>Doug wrote:<BR>&gt;testing, 1,2,3..<BR><BR>Doug, Doug, what are you thinking?!! We've already got a flame-fest about<BR>programming languages, why are you trying to invoke another about the<BR>quality of spreadsheet products??<BR><BR>...Oh! I see what you meant...<BR><BR>- - Hyphen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:24:09 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>Stuart wrote:<BR>&gt;Any programming language is likely to have good programmers and bad<BR>&gt;programmers. I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program like you<BR>form<BR>&gt;the basis of an argument then I take it you fall into the latter catagory.<BR><BR>&lt;Mmf!&gt; Chalk up a keyboard kill for Stuart!<BR><BR>- - Hyphen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:26:19 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: Re: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>Bruce despaired:<BR>&gt;Oh, lordy, I'm the pilot; that makes me Murdock!!!<BR><BR>Hey, look on the bright side. You could end up as a regular walk-on in Star<BR>Trek!<BR><BR>- - Hyphen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:42:08 -0600<BR>From: "Brian S. Pauls" &lt;bpauls@compuserve.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: V&amp;V<BR><BR>No problem. I also own a copy of "Solomani &amp; Aslan," should that become<BR>relevant.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Brian<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Loren Wiseman" &lt;lkw@io.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 3:17 PM<BR>Subject: V&amp;V<BR><BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Gentles,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I need to talk to someone who owns Vilani and Vargr. Please respond to<BR>both<BR>&gt; lkw@io.com and gdwgames@aol.com.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Thanks,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Loren Wiseman<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society<BR>http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SJ Games<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:02:02 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Downport down?<BR><BR>Downport seems to have gone walk about. Anybody got any ideas what's <BR>happened? A handful of pages seem to be still there, but the rest of the <BR>site has disappeared into the mists.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:39:19 +1100<BR>From: Phill Webb &lt;pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or<BR>&gt; Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.<BR><BR>What about a Cascade premium or Boags Premium, or if you want to go a<BR>bit darker Cooper's Stout?<BR><BR>BTW I can't remember the last time I actually saw Fosters in a pub down<BR>here, it seems to exist only for export.<BR><BR>Phill<BR>- -- <BR>Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:21:23 -0500<BR>From: "SwordWorlder" &lt;SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Downport down?<BR><BR>Downport.com is in the process of moving to a new server. There may be some<BR>DNS problems in various places as the new info propagates itself. Sorry for<BR>any inconvenience in the meantime. We may also have some email downtime, but<BR>all should be groovy by the weekend.<BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~&lt;&gt;&lt;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>www.Downport.com - "Traveller Web Portal"<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Downport seems to have gone walk about. Anybody got any ideas what's<BR>&gt; happened? A handful of pages seem to be still there, but the rest of the<BR>&gt; site has disappeared into the mists.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:28:32 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Downport down?<BR><BR>On 28 Feb 2001, at 23:21, SwordWorlder wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Downport.com is in the process of moving to a new server. There may be some<BR>&gt; DNS problems in various places as the new info propagates itself. Sorry for<BR>&gt; any inconvenience in the meantime. We may also have some email downtime, but<BR>&gt; all should be groovy by the weekend.<BR><BR>Darn and there was me planning my adventure "The Marie Celeste <BR>Website" :*&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:43:04 -0700<BR>From: "A. Batishko" &lt;abatish@utah-inter.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: writing programs...<BR><BR>Ok, combining responses here into one e-mail...<BR><BR>Timothy Little wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; No, but they can still have enough to add to an existing route.<BR>&gt; Across the Imperium, there are huge numbers of such additions with a<BR>&gt; cumulative effect substantially greater than that of the subsector<BR>&gt; trade routes themselves.<BR><BR>Ok, I'm starting to wonder if I've misunderstood the rules. The way I<BR>understood it was that you only get an increase in the trade route<BR>classification for multiple routes along the same segment _which are<BR>classified as at least minor routes_.&nbsp; That is, it takes 3 minor routes<BR>(nothing smaller adds in) to make one route of the next size up (feeder?).<BR>That means that any route with a WPN of less than 8 can be ignored because<BR>it can't add up to a route. Am I misunderstanding things?<BR><BR>&gt; You can at least reduce it to O((log n)^2) or so for each planet by<BR>&gt; caching route segments.&nbsp; Probably further reduction with better<BR>&gt; algorithm design, but this is probably sufficient.&nbsp; That improves<BR>&gt; matters greatly for maps of sector size or larger.&nbsp; Distance binning<BR>&gt; reduces the overall map calculation from O(n^2) trade calculations to<BR>&gt; O(n log n).&nbsp; So the overall calculation can be reduced to O(n (log n)^3).<BR><BR>Yeah, I started with caching the reverse of each calculated route (which of<BR>course cut my time in half). Unfortunately, I'd also planned to cache all<BR>subroutes of each calculated route. So, if you get a route from A to B to C,<BR>you also store C-B-A, A-B, B-C, B-A, and C-B, because each of those will<BR>also be the shortest routes as well. Irritatingly enough, this actually<BR>caused an increase in the calculation time. I think that's due to all the<BR>new memory allocations when creating those hordes of routes. I'm going to<BR>have to take another look. It's really quite discouraging. :(<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; For any given world, you can generate all possible routes from<BR>&gt; the world as<BR>&gt; O(dist^2); generating all 10 pc or shorter routes from every world on the<BR>&gt; map is O(n) as long as the map is considerably larger than 10 pc across.<BR><BR>Well shoot, I could calculate trade routes for an entire sector inside of 3<BR>seconds if I only had to calculate routes of 10 pc or less. Again, I may<BR>have misunderstood the rules, but can't a system generate a trade route<BR>regardless of its distance as long as the WTN is 8 or more? Please say I'm<BR>wrong about that, I'd love to see a 10 pc limitation... :)<BR><BR>Jonathan McDermott wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;Yes, I believe that part of the problem is that I'm using STL lists<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Of course you are; our TL isn't high enough for jump drive yet. =)<BR><BR>Ok, congrats to you. I almost never laugh out loud when I'm by myself, but<BR>you managed to get me to do it. :)<BR><BR>By the way, for those who don't know (and care), STL was intended to mean<BR>Standard Template Library, not Slower Than Light...<BR><BR>Andrew<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 00:40:20 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Adjutant Products<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:40:02 -0700<BR>&gt; From: "Eric T. Holmes" &lt;eholmes@lanl.gov&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Adjutant Products<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Fellow TMLers:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I need to correspond with anyone who has any of these "Adjutant" vehicle<BR>&gt; products for Traveller and Striker:<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Wheeled, Combat<BR><BR>By a strange twist of fate I have a copy of this booklet.<BR>None of the others though I'm afraid.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR>daveshayne@msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:09:22 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3750<BR><BR>Stuart Ferris wrote :<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; Sorry, but that is simply complete and utter b*ll*cks! There simply is no<BR>&gt; point of comparison.<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; I'll certainly write off your opinions.<BR><BR>&gt; It seems to be an industry trend to slag off VB and if your a professional<BR>&gt; programmer you've simply got to dislke VB.<BR><BR>A rational analyst would notice the trend that professional programmers tend<BR>to dislike VB, and deduce that perhaps there is a good reason for this.<BR><BR>They wouldn't just assume it was prejudice.<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program<BR>&gt; like you form the basis of an argument then I take<BR>&gt; it you fall into the latter catagory.<BR><BR>What was that about pots calling kettles black ?<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:11:30 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: V&amp;V Errata<BR><BR>Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; Just noticed that page 12 of V&amp;V mislabelled the map.<BR>&gt; What it calls the Domain of Deneb, does not contain<BR>&gt; Deneb at all.&nbsp; ;-)<BR><BR>Why should Villians &amp; Vigilantes contain a refeence to Deneb anyway ?<BR>:-)<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:47:56 -0800<BR>From: "Antony Farrell" &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Phill Webb<BR>Sent: Wednesday, 28 February 2001 7:39 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR><BR>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or<BR>&gt; Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.<BR><BR>What about a Cascade premium or Boags Premium, or if you want to go a<BR>bit darker Cooper's Stout?<BR><BR>BTW I can't remember the last time I actually saw Fosters in a pub down<BR>here, it seems to exist only for export.<BR><BR>Phill<BR>- --<BR>Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/<BR><BR>I personally preferred a Dog Bolter with a twist of lemon, though the Brass<BR>Monkey was good too.<BR><BR>Antony<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:00:16 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: VB comments (OT by the way)<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; What I found was that until I've<BR>&gt; actually learned what it is that I need to know,<BR>&gt; I will *always* be programming at a level that<BR>&gt; is below what I want to be at.<BR><BR>Now _that's_ the correct attitiude.<BR><BR>I would guess I'm just about at the pinnacle of my career<BR>(heck I'm over 30, I must be on the downhill slide &lt;grin&gt; )<BR>and I am also always worse than I want to be.<BR><BR>&gt; This means then, that I need to either read the manuals I've purchased, or<BR>&gt; ask some kindly soul "hey, how do you do this..." or "Hey, thanks for the<BR>&gt; tip, now tell me why that worked".<BR><BR>Yep, valid choices, though personally I find that after all that you usually<BR>end up figuring it out for yourself by experimenting, and discovering what<BR>the manuals don't tell you.<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; Granted the version of Visual Basic I have is the<BR>&gt; industrial version &lt;grin&gt;, but I got it cheaply and legally.<BR>&gt; So - if you guys don't mind?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Either be part of the solution, or you are part of the problem.<BR><BR>I, for one, am being part of the solution.<BR>Encouraging people not to use Visual Basic is, IMO, part of that.<BR><BR>&lt;professional-opinion&gt;<BR>Why cripple yourself with a broken language that is really quite hard to use<BR>for anything other than trivial tasks and is only really good for<BR>interacting with Microsoft Office Software?<BR><BR>Java is free, is a much easier and safer language for novices to learn than<BR>Visual Basic, has better libraries (meaning you write less code, which is<BR>always a good thing), doesn't require fancy GUIs if you don't like them, and<BR>works on any platform from OS-390 to Palm Pilot.<BR><BR>Doesn't stop me programming in VB when I have to or when it makes sense, but<BR>where there's a choice, especially when I'm doing stuff for myself, I use<BR>Java.<BR>&lt;/professional-opinion&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; Instead of knocking those of us who want to create a program, help us.<BR><BR>I have always done so, and not just on this list.<BR><BR>The only reason any _person_ has been knocked on this thread is because of<BR>their attitude, not because of their use of Visual Basic. We may knock their<BR>choice of language, but that does not mean we're knocking the person.<BR><BR>&gt; And if you feel that we need some extra help to achieve<BR>&gt; standards of programming you feel should exist<BR><BR>Oh, they do, they do. If you're interested, go to www.sei.cmu.edu and look<BR>up the Capability Maturity Model for Software (SW-CMM).<BR><BR>&gt; - perhaps helping us by volunteering your time might not<BR>&gt; be a bad way to go.<BR><BR>Again, I have always helped when I can.<BR><BR>And let me use this oppurtunity to say that I'm happy to help any<BR>programmers, no matter what their level, on this list who have questions<BR>related to OO-Design, C++, Java, XML, or web-related technologies. I might<BR>be able to help out with other stuff, but those are the areas I'm dealing<BR>with most at present.<BR><BR>Just bear in my mind, if I don't respond immediately, that paying customers<BR>get priority !<BR>&lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:12:01 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or<BR>&gt; Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.<BR><BR>You should try FB.<BR><BR>Speights Old Dark is what I normally drink, when I'm not drinking Guiness. <BR><BR>No-one should ever use Stela Artois though. <BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 20:35:37 +1100<BR>From: "Jeffrey Malone" &lt;nparker1971@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Dog Bolter with lemon?&nbsp; Not Redback with lemon?&nbsp; Best place to drink it was<BR>at the Brass Monkey in Northbridge...thumbs down for VB...<BR><BR>J.M.M<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Antony Farrell &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:47 AM<BR>Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Phill Webb<BR>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 28 February 2001 7:39 PM<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or<BR>&gt; &gt; Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; What about a Cascade premium or Boags Premium, or if you want to go a<BR>&gt; bit darker Cooper's Stout?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; BTW I can't remember the last time I actually saw Fosters in a pub down<BR>&gt; here, it seems to exist only for export.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Phill<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I personally preferred a Dog Bolter with a twist of lemon, though the<BR>Brass<BR>&gt; Monkey was good too.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Antony<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3753<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, March 1 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3754<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>TravellerBrews LIC<BR>RE: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>RE: What could go wrong?<BR>RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>Aussie Beer, Picking Fights and Visual Basic<BR>Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:03:27 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>On 28 Feb 2001, at 16:16, Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; More like 6.8.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.<BR>&gt; Sounds like a small difference but the difference between<BR>&gt; a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!<BR><BR>If it was a 7.0 there'd be an aweful lot of nothing standing for quite a ways <BR>around the epicentre.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:03:27 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>On 28 Feb 2001, at 14:06, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; It's things like this that make the Pacific Rim such an interesting place. :) <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Nod, if it weren't for the quakes the absence of tornadoes, hurricanes, and<BR>&gt; other interesting weather would make it positively boring.<BR><BR>You do live in a quiet part, don't you. Oh that's right, we don't qualify for <BR>hurricanes - they're only storms.<BR><BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:04:09 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>On 28 Feb 2001, at 14:30, Bill wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; More like 6.8.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.<BR>&gt; &gt;Sounds like a small difference but the difference between<BR>&gt; &gt;a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;bloo<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The USGS is recording the quake as a 6.8 The epicenter is reported to <BR>&gt; be 11 miles NE of Olympia and is 25-29 miles underground.<BR><BR>Shallow. That would've been fun for Olympia.<BR><BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:09:47 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 21:12, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or<BR>&gt; &gt; Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; You should try FB.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Speights Old Dark is what I normally drink, when I'm not drinking Guiness. <BR><BR>Both fine choices. Prefer Black Macs myself, though.<BR><BR>&gt; No-one should ever use Stela Artois though. <BR><BR>Tried it. IMO it is a waste of money. If you like the _slightly_ bitter <BR>aftertaste Montieths Golden (?) is a better (and cheaper) choice, and if you <BR>want a bit of character Mac's Gold.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 05:33:44 -0500 <BR>From: "Greenly, Jeff" &lt;greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>Jeez!<BR><BR>The stuff you people drink!<BR><BR>Most of the Aussie and NZ beers taste like they were brewed through a sheep.<BR>(With a few exceptions.) <BR><BR>And Corona?!? Are you ill, man?<BR><BR>What you need is a bottle of Solomani Imperial Stout, brewed by appointment<BR>to the royal court on Capital by Astronopolis Brewing, LIC in the time<BR>honored traditional method and shipped in hand coopered oaken barrels.<BR><BR>(I won't lay the full grain version of this brew on y'all...This is the<BR>quick and dirty version)<BR><BR>Solomani Imperial Stout<BR>Extract Brew<BR>5 Gallon Batch from 6.3 Gal full boil<BR><BR>OG/FG: 1.075-1.090/1.020-1.030<BR>Alc.V: 7.5-8.9<BR>IBU: 75 +/- 5<BR>SRM: 40+<BR><BR>6.6 lbs Muntons Dark LME<BR>5.0 lbs Munton Light DME<BR>12 oz black patent malt<BR>1 lb roast non-malt barley<BR>12 oz 40L caramel malt<BR>1 lb chocolate malt<BR><BR>3 oz Northern Brewer @ 7.5 AAU for 60 min<BR>1 oz Fuggles @ 4.0 AAU for 10 min<BR><BR>Red Star Dry Champagne Yeast, in starter solution<BR><BR>Ferment in primary for 7 weeks @ 70 F<BR>Rack to secondary, 6 weeks @ 70 F<BR><BR>Once you've had a brew from the Astronopolis, you won't want to drink<BR>anything else, unless you know the brewer personally... <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:09:11 -0000 <BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Ob-Trav: Sure, adventures traditionally start out with the shadowy patron in<BR>Brubek's, followed by a bar fight...but what the heck is everyone drinking?<BR>Some examples from Andy Slack's Dark Nebula campaign (used without<BR>permission) : Banana Wine and Tall Toad beer.<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Jeffrey Malone [mailto:nparker1971@ozemail.com.au]<BR>&gt; Sent: 01 March 2001 09:36<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Dog Bolter with lemon?&nbsp; Not Redback with lemon?&nbsp; Best place <BR>&gt; to drink it was<BR>&gt; at the Brass Monkey in Northbridge...thumbs down for VB...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; J.M.M<BR>&gt; ----- Original Message -----<BR>&gt; From: Antony Farrell &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>&gt; To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:47 AM<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; &gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Phill Webb<BR>&gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, 28 February 2001 7:39 PM<BR>&gt; &gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a <BR>&gt; Carlton Cold or<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; What about a Cascade premium or Boags Premium, or if you <BR>&gt; want to go a<BR>&gt; &gt; bit darker Cooper's Stout?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; BTW I can't remember the last time I actually saw Fosters <BR>&gt; in a pub down<BR>&gt; &gt; here, it seems to exist only for export.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Phill<BR>&gt; &gt; --<BR>&gt; &gt; Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I personally preferred a Dog Bolter with a twist of lemon, <BR>&gt; though the<BR>&gt; Brass<BR>&gt; &gt; Monkey was good too.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Antony<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:11:21 -0000 <BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: What could go wrong?<BR><BR>Heh heh heh, Barcley's Protomorphosis Syndrome. And you thought their<BR>customer service was bad...<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>&gt; [mailto:david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au]<BR>&gt; Sent: 01 March 2001 02:26<BR>&gt; To: traveller@ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: What could go wrong?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Dear Folks -<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bruce despaired:<BR>&gt; &gt;Oh, lordy, I'm the pilot; that makes me Murdock!!!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hey, look on the bright side. You could end up as a regular <BR>&gt; walk-on in Star<BR>&gt; Trek!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; - Hyphen<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:47:32 -0000 <BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>OMG! Does this make Jeff a Beerhead?<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Greenly, Jeff [mailto:greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu]<BR>&gt; Sent: 01 March 2001 10:34<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Jeez!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The stuff you people drink!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Most of the Aussie and NZ beers taste like they were brewed <BR>&gt; through a sheep.<BR>&gt; (With a few exceptions.) <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; And Corona?!? Are you ill, man?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; What you need is a bottle of Solomani Imperial Stout, brewed <BR>&gt; by appointment<BR>&gt; to the royal court on Capital by Astronopolis Brewing, LIC in the time<BR>&gt; honored traditional method and shipped in hand coopered oaken barrels.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; (I won't lay the full grain version of this brew on <BR>&gt; y'all...This is the<BR>&gt; quick and dirty version)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Solomani Imperial Stout<BR>&gt; Extract Brew<BR>&gt; 5 Gallon Batch from 6.3 Gal full boil<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; OG/FG: 1.075-1.090/1.020-1.030<BR>&gt; Alc.V: 7.5-8.9<BR>&gt; IBU: 75 +/- 5<BR>&gt; SRM: 40+<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 6.6 lbs Muntons Dark LME<BR>&gt; 5.0 lbs Munton Light DME<BR>&gt; 12 oz black patent malt<BR>&gt; 1 lb roast non-malt barley<BR>&gt; 12 oz 40L caramel malt<BR>&gt; 1 lb chocolate malt<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 3 oz Northern Brewer @ 7.5 AAU for 60 min<BR>&gt; 1 oz Fuggles @ 4.0 AAU for 10 min<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Red Star Dry Champagne Yeast, in starter solution<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ferment in primary for 7 weeks @ 70 F<BR>&gt; Rack to secondary, 6 weeks @ 70 F<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Once you've had a brew from the Astronopolis, you won't want to drink<BR>&gt; anything else, unless you know the brewer personally... <BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 01:05:46 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; More like 6.8.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.<BR>&gt; Sounds like a small difference but the difference between<BR>&gt; a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!<BR><BR>The USGS station in Golden, Colorado reported 7.0. The Tsunami warning<BR>center in Alaska(?) reported 6.2. And the University of Washington<BR>reported 6.4.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 01:07:16 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; More like 6.8.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.<BR>&gt;&gt;Sounds like a small difference but the difference between<BR>&gt;&gt;a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;bloo<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The USGS is recording the quake as a 6.8 The epicenter is reported to <BR>&gt; be 11 miles NE of Olympia and is 25-29 miles underground.<BR><BR>Good grief! That's down in the *mantle*, isn't it?<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:09:56 +1100<BR>From: "Jeffrey Malone" &lt;nparker1971@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>Brewed through a sheep?&nbsp; Sounds more like NZ beer to me (which is not to<BR>defend many Oz beers...we export the crap so that we won't have to drink it<BR>here...)<BR><BR>One wonders then what beer would taste like if it were brewed through a<BR>penguin...<BR><BR>J.M.M.<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Greenly, Jeff &lt;greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 9:33 PM<BR>Subject: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Jeez!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The stuff you people drink!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Most of the Aussie and NZ beers taste like they were brewed through a<BR>sheep.<BR>&gt; (With a few exceptions.)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; And Corona?!? Are you ill, man?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; What you need is a bottle of Solomani Imperial Stout, brewed by<BR>appointment<BR>&gt; to the royal court on Capital by Astronopolis Brewing, LIC in the time<BR>&gt; honored traditional method and shipped in hand coopered oaken barrels.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; (I won't lay the full grain version of this brew on y'all...This is the<BR>&gt; quick and dirty version)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Solomani Imperial Stout<BR>&gt; Extract Brew<BR>&gt; 5 Gallon Batch from 6.3 Gal full boil<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; OG/FG: 1.075-1.090/1.020-1.030<BR>&gt; Alc.V: 7.5-8.9<BR>&gt; IBU: 75 +/- 5<BR>&gt; SRM: 40+<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 6.6 lbs Muntons Dark LME<BR>&gt; 5.0 lbs Munton Light DME<BR>&gt; 12 oz black patent malt<BR>&gt; 1 lb roast non-malt barley<BR>&gt; 12 oz 40L caramel malt<BR>&gt; 1 lb chocolate malt<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 3 oz Northern Brewer @ 7.5 AAU for 60 min<BR>&gt; 1 oz Fuggles @ 4.0 AAU for 10 min<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Red Star Dry Champagne Yeast, in starter solution<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Ferment in primary for 7 weeks @ 70 F<BR>&gt; Rack to secondary, 6 weeks @ 70 F<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Once you've had a brew from the Astronopolis, you won't want to drink<BR>&gt; anything else, unless you know the brewer personally...<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:15:19 -0000 <BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Solomani Imperial Stout<BR>&gt; Extract Brew<BR>&gt; 5 Gallon Batch from 6.3 Gal full boil<BR><BR>Hmm, may I suggest a varient: Imperial Scout Extract Brew?<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:24:41 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 1:07, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; More like 6.8.<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;Sounds like a small difference but the difference between<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;bloo<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; The USGS is recording the quake as a 6.8 The epicenter is reported to <BR>&gt; &gt; be 11 miles NE of Olympia and is 25-29 miles underground.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Good grief! That's down in the *mantle*, isn't it?<BR><BR>Probably. It's fairly shallow by NZ standards. Most of our run at the 60-100 <BR>miles down range. I think it's because we're sitting over a subduction zone. <BR>Generally the deeper it is the less horrid things happen right over it, but the <BR>further away you feel the effects.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:24:41 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 22:09, Jeffrey Malone wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Brewed through a sheep?&nbsp; Sounds more like NZ beer to me (which is not to<BR>&gt; defend many Oz beers...we export the crap so that we won't have to drink it<BR>&gt; here...)<BR><BR>Actually it's what we usually think of Aussie and (especially) US beers. Though <BR>if your exposure to NZ beer has been Steinlager and the various crap like DB <BR>Draught and Lion Red I'm not surprised you don't like it. For decent beer try <BR>Mac's or Montieth's. For drinkable mass-market Tui or Speight's (especially <BR>their Old Dark), and Waikato if you like a more bitter flavour.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:26:41 -0800<BR>From: "Craig Brain" &lt;cjbrain@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Aussie Beer, Picking Fights and Visual Basic<BR><BR>I'm with Phill on the subject of Boags Premium! Marvelous stuff that.<BR><BR>I'm not so keen on the other subject of VB Users vs "Real Programmers". I<BR>really don't give a flying fat rat's crack.<BR>If I did, I would subscribe to an appropriate forum, or in person I would<BR>ask the person to step outside for a punch in the gob. I don't think this is<BR>the place - why waste the bandwidth?<BR><BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:39:19 +1100<BR>From: Phill Webb &lt;pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or<BR>&gt; Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.<BR><BR>What about a Cascade premium or Boags Premium, or if you want to go a<BR>bit darker Cooper's Stout?<BR><BR>BTW I can't remember the last time I actually saw Fosters in a pub down<BR>here, it seems to exist only for export.<BR><BR>Phill<BR>- - --<BR>Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:24:58 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Okay, trying to pull all this&nbsp; programming&nbsp; lark&nbsp; back&nbsp; onto&nbsp; the<BR>topic for which *this* list exists (ie. Traveller)&nbsp; I'd&nbsp; like&nbsp; to<BR>make the following proposal:<BR><BR>There are a number of software projects for Traveller&nbsp; (both&nbsp; old<BR>and new) that requires a&nbsp; database&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; Traveller&nbsp; Universe.<BR>There are drill-down mappers (like Galactic),&nbsp; there&nbsp; are&nbsp; system<BR>generators (like Heaven&amp;Earth), there are spreadsheets to analyse<BR>the Imperial budget, and it sounds like there is&nbsp; more&nbsp; than&nbsp; one<BR>person working on Traveller trading programs.<BR><BR>Each of these programs uses its own proprietary file&nbsp; structures.<BR>Yet the core data *structure* is logically the same ...&nbsp; sectors,<BR>subsectors, hexes, UPP/UWP, trade codes, etc.<BR><BR>What I'd like to propose is that future databases be built&nbsp; to&nbsp; a<BR>common database design, which other programs can&nbsp; call&nbsp; from&nbsp; and<BR>add to.&nbsp; People would still be free to write their own&nbsp; programs,<BR>but with a central point for database&nbsp; design&nbsp; changes.&nbsp; So&nbsp; when<BR>you write a Traveller program it can share data&nbsp; with&nbsp; any&nbsp; other<BR>Traveller programs you have (without having&nbsp; to&nbsp; reinvent&nbsp; import<BR>and export routines every time, and store the data redundantly in<BR>multiple formats).<BR><BR>At present I am writing a&nbsp; Windows-based drill&nbsp; down&nbsp; mapper&nbsp; and<BR>database maintenance&nbsp; program&nbsp; that&nbsp; stores&nbsp; data&nbsp; in&nbsp; an&nbsp; Access<BR>database.&nbsp; I chose Access because it was free (you don't need the<BR>MS Access program to have an Access database) but I'm willing&nbsp; to<BR>look at other databases systems (like FileMaker).<BR><BR>If there is an interest I'll start posting&nbsp; the&nbsp; database&nbsp; design<BR>I've got so far in plain text form to the StuffOnline website for<BR>discussion.&nbsp; Later I can put a&nbsp; few&nbsp; sample&nbsp; databases&nbsp; (Classic,<BR>TNE,&nbsp; Milieu&nbsp; Zero,&nbsp; etc)&nbsp; online&nbsp; for&nbsp; people&nbsp; to&nbsp; download&nbsp; and<BR>customise.<BR><BR>Comments?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>(To see current progress on&nbsp; my&nbsp; drill-down&nbsp; mapper&nbsp; there&nbsp; is&nbsp; a<BR>screenshot on the StuffOnline web site under "Traveller Universe"<BR>... http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 02:33:50 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 13:24, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; At present I am writing a&nbsp; Windows-based drill&nbsp; down&nbsp; mapper&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; database maintenance&nbsp; program&nbsp; that&nbsp; stores&nbsp; data&nbsp; in&nbsp; an&nbsp; Access<BR>&gt; database.&nbsp; I chose Access because it was free (you don't need the<BR>&gt; MS Access program to have an Access database) but I'm willing&nbsp; to<BR>&gt; look at other databases systems (like FileMaker).<BR><BR>Is InterBase available for Mac and Linux? Its a powerful RDBMS and its <BR>free.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:46:29 -0600<BR>From: "Dave McKenna" &lt;Dave.McKenna@MurrayState.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>How about an XML protocol for data exchange?<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Trevor, Peter<BR>&gt; Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 7:25 AM<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Okay, trying to pull all this&nbsp; programming&nbsp; lark&nbsp; back&nbsp; onto&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; topic for which *this* list exists (ie. Traveller)&nbsp; I'd&nbsp; like&nbsp; to<BR>&gt; make the following proposal:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; There are a number of software projects for Traveller&nbsp; (both&nbsp; old<BR>&gt; and new) that requires a&nbsp; database&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; Traveller&nbsp; Universe.<BR>&gt; There are drill-down mappers (like Galactic),&nbsp; there&nbsp; are&nbsp; system<BR>&gt; generators (like Heaven&amp;Earth), there are spreadsheets to analyse<BR>&gt; the Imperial budget, and it sounds like there is&nbsp; more&nbsp; than&nbsp; one<BR>&gt; person working on Traveller trading programs.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Each of these programs uses its own proprietary file&nbsp; structures.<BR>&gt; Yet the core data *structure* is logically the same ...&nbsp; sectors,<BR>&gt; subsectors, hexes, UPP/UWP, trade codes, etc.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; What I'd like to propose is that future databases be built&nbsp; to&nbsp; a<BR>&gt; common database design, which other programs can&nbsp; call&nbsp; from&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; add to.&nbsp; People would still be free to write their own&nbsp; programs,<BR>&gt; but with a central point for database&nbsp; design&nbsp; changes.&nbsp; So&nbsp; when<BR>&gt; you write a Traveller program it can share data&nbsp; with&nbsp; any&nbsp; other<BR>&gt; Traveller programs you have (without having&nbsp; to&nbsp; reinvent&nbsp; import<BR>&gt; and export routines every time, and store the data redundantly in<BR>&gt; multiple formats).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; At present I am writing a&nbsp; Windows-based drill&nbsp; down&nbsp; mapper&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; database maintenance&nbsp; program&nbsp; that&nbsp; stores&nbsp; data&nbsp; in&nbsp; an&nbsp; Access<BR>&gt; database.&nbsp; I chose Access because it was free (you don't need the<BR>&gt; MS Access program to have an Access database) but I'm willing&nbsp; to<BR>&gt; look at other databases systems (like FileMaker).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; If there is an interest I'll start posting&nbsp; the&nbsp; database&nbsp; design<BR>&gt; I've got so far in plain text form to the StuffOnline website for<BR>&gt; discussion.&nbsp; Later I can put a&nbsp; few&nbsp; sample&nbsp; databases&nbsp; (Classic,<BR>&gt; TNE,&nbsp; Milieu&nbsp; Zero,&nbsp; etc)&nbsp; online&nbsp; for&nbsp; people&nbsp; to&nbsp; download&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; customise.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Comments?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Regards PLST<BR>&gt; (aka Stalin)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; (To see current progress on&nbsp; my&nbsp; drill-down&nbsp; mapper&nbsp; there&nbsp; is&nbsp; a<BR>&gt; screenshot on the StuffOnline web site under "Traveller Universe"<BR>&gt; ... http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol)<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:48:16 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>This is a brilliant idea. I have one proposal to make:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; rather than Access, use XML.<BR><BR>Why? <BR><BR>Well, XML is hand-editable, cross-platform, and well understood. Data can be structured in complex ways, parsed, modified, and written out again easily.<BR><BR>XML libraries in all major (and many minor) languages are freely available on all platforms. XML editors are available cheaply or for free on all platforms.<BR><BR>An XML database of the Traveller universe can provide a DTD (data schema) for UPPs, etc, and be extended for trade data, military data, etc.<BR><BR>Observe:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;UNIVERSE NAME="Traveller" MILEU-NAME = "Classic" MILEU-DATE="1115"&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;SECTOR NAME="CORE" LOCATION="NN"&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;SUBSECTOR NAME="Dunno" LOCATION="AA"&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;WORLD NAME="Capital" LOCATION="0101" UPP="11111111"&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;MILITARY-DATA&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Blah<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/MILITARY-DATA&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;TRADE-DATA&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Blah<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/TRADE-DATA&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;ROCK-GROUP-DATA&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Blah<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/ROCK-GROUP-DATA&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/WORLD&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;WORLD NAME="Maedup" LOCATION="0202" UPP="22222222"&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/WORLD&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;WORLD NAME="Noidea" LOCATION="0303" UPP="33333333"&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/WORLD&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/SUBSECTOR&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/SECTOR&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;SECTOR NAME="Solomani Rim" X="1" Y="0"&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;SUBSECTOR NAME="Dunno" LOCATION="AA"&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/SUBSECTOR&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/SECTOR&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;SECTOR NAME="Spinward Marches" X="-2" Y="2"&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;SUBSECTOR NAME="Dunno" LOCATION="AA"&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/SUBSECTOR&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/SECTOR&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/UNIVERSE&gt;<BR><BR><BR>Such a format would allow all Traveller programs in all languages on all platforms to exchange sector, subsector and planetary data. This would give developers a boost by allowing them to share accurate data and not having to reinvent the wheel each time. It would give users a boost by allowing them to share data between programs and hack the data in a reasonably easily understood format if they want to.<BR><BR>Traveller Markup Language (TML) 0.1 is hereby proposed. :-)<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 01:24 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Okay, trying to pull all this&nbsp; programming&nbsp; lark&nbsp; back&nbsp; onto&nbsp; the <BR>&gt; topic for which *this* list exists (ie. Traveller)&nbsp; I'd&nbsp; like&nbsp; to <BR>&gt; make the following proposal: <BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; There are a number of software projects for Traveller&nbsp; (both&nbsp; old <BR>&gt; and new) that requires a&nbsp; database&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; Traveller&nbsp; Universe. <BR>&gt; There are drill-down mappers (like Galactic),&nbsp; there&nbsp; are&nbsp; system <BR>&gt; generators (like Heaven&amp;Earth), there are spreadsheets to analyse <BR>&gt; the Imperial budget, and it sounds like there is&nbsp; more&nbsp; than&nbsp; one <BR>&gt; person working on Traveller trading programs. <BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; Each of these programs uses its own proprietary file&nbsp; structures. <BR>&gt; Yet the core data *structure* is logically the same ...&nbsp; sectors, <BR>&gt; subsectors, hexes, UPP/UWP, trade codes, etc. <BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; What I'd like to propose is that future databases be built&nbsp; to&nbsp; a <BR>&gt; common database design, which other programs can&nbsp; call&nbsp; from&nbsp; and <BR>&gt; add to.&nbsp; People would still be free to write their own&nbsp; programs, <BR>&gt; but with a central point for database&nbsp; design&nbsp; changes.&nbsp; So&nbsp; when <BR>&gt; you write a Traveller program it can share data&nbsp; with&nbsp; any&nbsp; other <BR>&gt; Traveller programs you have (without having&nbsp; to&nbsp; reinvent&nbsp; import <BR>&gt; and export routines every time, and store the data redundantly in <BR>&gt; multiple formats). <BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; At present I am writing a&nbsp; Windows-based drill&nbsp; down&nbsp; mapper&nbsp; and <BR>&gt; database maintenance&nbsp; program&nbsp; that&nbsp; stores&nbsp; data&nbsp; in&nbsp; an&nbsp; Access <BR>&gt; database.&nbsp; I chose Access because it was free (you don't need the <BR>&gt; MS Access program to have an Access database) but I'm willing&nbsp; to <BR>&gt; look at other databases systems (like FileMaker). <BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; If there is an interest I'll start posting&nbsp; the&nbsp; database&nbsp; design <BR>&gt; I've got so far in plain text form to the StuffOnline website for <BR>&gt; discussion.&nbsp; Later I can put a&nbsp; few&nbsp; sample&nbsp; databases&nbsp; (Classic, <BR>&gt; TNE,&nbsp; Milieu&nbsp; Zero,&nbsp; etc)&nbsp; online&nbsp; for&nbsp; people&nbsp; to&nbsp; download&nbsp; and <BR>&gt; customise. <BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/dylan<BR>"The idea behind Dylan-to offer a range of dynamism appropriate to each piece of an application-feels right, and after using Dylan you will become frustrated with C++ and Java." - Software Development Magazine. <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3754<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xa01.mx.aol.com (rly-xa01.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.70]) by air-xa03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:55:29 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xa01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:54:27 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id IAA39528;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:53:05 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:52:34 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id IAA39478<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:52:33 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:52:33 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103011352.IAA39478@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3754<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, March 1 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3755<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Looking For...<BR>Ship Construction Rules<BR>Re: Looking For...<BR>Imperium blood chits?<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:57:44 -0600<BR>From: "Dave McKenna" &lt;Dave.McKenna@MurrayState.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>&gt; Traveller Markup Language (TML) 0.1 is hereby proposed. :-)<BR><BR>I second that motion, with one suggestion... how about we call it "TMX" so<BR>as to avoid any confusion?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:55:50 -0800<BR>From: "Antony Farrell" &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Malone<BR>Sent: Thursday, 1 March 2001 1:36 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR><BR>Dog Bolter with lemon?&nbsp; Not Redback with lemon?&nbsp; Best place to drink it was<BR>at the Brass Monkey in Northbridge...thumbs down for VB...<BR><BR>Yes you are right it was indeed the Redback with lemon, been awhile since I<BR>had any. I usually went to Queens Tavern in Mount Lawley.<BR><BR>Once tried to run through their "menu" using pint glasses, didn't get very<BR>far though.<BR><BR>Antony<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:08:12 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Hey, great minds think alike. :-)<BR><BR>Here's a DTD for a simple-minded Traveller Markup Language. The world section is incomplete as I don't have the LBB's to hand. Possibly a common world representation usable by Traveller and GURPS could be found. The worlds, sectors and subsectors should be able to support arbitrary tags, so a doc could include tml.dtd, far-trader.dtd, etc and make sense of itself, but I don't know how to do that just now. :-) <BR><BR>&lt;?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;!DOCTYPE UNIVERSE [<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT UNIVERSE (NAME, MILEU?, MILEU?, SECTOR+)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT NAME (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT MILEU (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT DATE (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT SECTOR (LOCATION, SUBSECTOR+)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT LOCATION (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT SUBSECTOR (LOCATION, WORLD+)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT WORLD (NAME, UPP, GAS-GIANT+, ZONE+, FACT*)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT UPP (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT GAS-GIANT (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT ZONE (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT FACT (NAME, INFORMATION)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT INFORMATION (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>]&gt;<BR><BR>If anyone is interested in this I can write something more complete up.<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/dylan<BR>"The idea behind Dylan-to offer a range of dynamism appropriate to each piece of an application-feels right, and after using Dylan you will become frustrated with C++ and Java." - Software Development Magazine. <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:12:12 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>But the confusion is half the fun. :-)<BR>Howabout an Imperial-sounding name? You just know the Solomani infected<BR>Capital with XML-itis before the long night. There are COBOL routines in<BR>the IISS accounts mainfraime from back when Sylea bought a job lot of<BR>IBM systems cheap...<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>Dave McKenna wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Traveller Markup Language (TML) 0.1 is hereby proposed. :-)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I second that motion, with one suggestion... how about we call it "TMX" so<BR>&gt; as to avoid any confusion?<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei, <BR>Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."<BR>- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:20:47 -0600<BR>From: "Dave McKenna" &lt;Dave.McKenna@MurrayState.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>IBM?&nbsp; I thought they were TRS-80's... Solomani infiltrators also managed to<BR>hijack a shipment of cassette tapes destined for said computers (remember<BR>the tape drives?) and replaced them with 8-tracks...<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Rob Myers<BR>&gt; Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 8:12 AM<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; But the confusion is half the fun. :-)<BR>&gt; Howabout an Imperial-sounding name? You just know the Solomani infected<BR>&gt; Capital with XML-itis before the long night. There are COBOL routines in<BR>&gt; the IISS accounts mainfraime from back when Sylea bought a job lot of<BR>&gt; IBM systems cheap...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; - Rob.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Dave McKenna wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Traveller Markup Language (TML) 0.1 is hereby proposed. :-)<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I second that motion, with one suggestion... how about we call<BR>&gt; it "TMX" so<BR>&gt; &gt; as to avoid any confusion?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/<BR>&gt; "Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."<BR>&gt;&nbsp; - Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:15:18 +1100<BR>From: "Jeffrey Malone" &lt;nparker1971@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>By IBM one assumes you refer to "Imperial Business Machines", ne c'est pas?<BR><BR>J.M.M.<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 1:12 AM<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR><BR>&gt; But the confusion is half the fun. :-)<BR>&gt; Howabout an Imperial-sounding name? You just know the Solomani infected<BR>&gt; Capital with XML-itis before the long night. There are COBOL routines in<BR>&gt; the IISS accounts mainfraime from back when Sylea bought a job lot of<BR>&gt; IBM systems cheap...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; - Rob.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Dave McKenna wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Traveller Markup Language (TML) 0.1 is hereby proposed. :-)<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I second that motion, with one suggestion... how about we call it "TMX"<BR>so<BR>&gt; &gt; as to avoid any confusion?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/<BR>&gt; "Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."<BR>&gt;&nbsp; - Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:23:37 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Dave McKenna wrote:<BR>&gt; How about an XML protocol for data exchange?<BR><BR><BR><BR>And Rob Myers wrote:<BR>&gt; This is a brilliant idea. I have one proposal to make:<BR>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; rather than Access, use XML.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Well we've just steam-rollered right over the current limit of my<BR>knowledge.&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>1)&nbsp; Wasn't someone else on the TML working of an XML format&nbsp; last<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; year?&nbsp; Who was that and how far did they get?<BR><BR>2)&nbsp; Correct me if I'm wrong (I could easily be) but isn't&nbsp; XML&nbsp; a<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; markup-language like&nbsp; HTML?&nbsp; Potentially&nbsp; useful&nbsp; as&nbsp; a&nbsp; data<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; exchange protocol (as Dave suggested), yes, but not an&nbsp; RDBMS<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; in itself?&nbsp; I was suggesting a common RDBMS&nbsp; which&nbsp; Traveller<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; programs could use ...&nbsp; with&nbsp; some&nbsp; sample&nbsp; downloadable&nbsp; DBs<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (based on existing online archives), but&nbsp; otherwise&nbsp; allowing<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; individuals to tailor the *data* within to their TU.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:25:02 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>On Thu, 1 Mar 2001, Dave McKenna wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Traveller Markup Language (TML) 0.1 is hereby proposed. :-)<BR>&gt; I second that motion, with one suggestion... how about we call it "TMX" so<BR>&gt; as to avoid any confusion?<BR><BR>The Traveller Markup Language gets my support, too.<BR>Still, it should be developed somewhat more. B-)<BR><BR>TMX could be a workable TLA for it.<BR><BR>And, yes, please do develop programs in languages which run on<BR>non-Microsoft platforms. (Personal dislike to use [as a hobby] programs<BR>which cost money. And, as I am probably going to earn my living by<BR>programming, I won't use software which I haven't the rights. B-/ ) <BR><BR>Hm, perhaps I should do my Traveller software projects (none of which are<BR>even close to anything concrete) in Ada...<BR><BR>- -- <BR>+++++++++[&gt;+++++++++&lt;-]&gt;-.&lt;+++++[&gt;+++&lt;-]++&gt;++.&lt;++[&gt;++++&lt;-]+&gt;+.&lt;++[&gt;----<BR>&lt;-]&gt;-.&gt;+++[&gt;++++++++++&lt;-]++&gt;++pare@iki.fi&lt;+[&gt;++++&lt;-]&gt;+.-&gt;+[&gt;++++[&lt;&lt;---&gt;<BR>&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;.&gt;&gt;+++++++[&lt;++++++++++&gt;-]++++[&lt;+++++&gt;-]&lt;-.&gt;[-]&gt;+++[&gt;++[&lt;&lt;&lt;----&gt;&gt;<BR>&lt;&gt;&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;&lt;.+.&gt;[-]++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;.++.[-]&gt;[-]++++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;++.&gt;&gt;++[&gt;++[&gt;-&lt;-]&lt;--]<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:18:20 +1100<BR>From: "Jeffrey Malone" &lt;nparker1971@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>"Old Dark Speight's" seems to smack too much of political instability in the<BR>South Pacific...perhaps staying with SweinLarger (beer brewed through a<BR>pig?) might be a better idea after all...<BR><BR>J.M.M.<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Rupert Boleyn &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 11:24 PM<BR>Subject: Re: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; On 1 Mar 2001, at 22:09, Jeffrey Malone wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Brewed through a sheep?&nbsp; Sounds more like NZ beer to me (which is not to<BR>&gt; &gt; defend many Oz beers...we export the crap so that we won't have to drink<BR>it<BR>&gt; &gt; here...)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Actually it's what we usually think of Aussie and (especially) US beers.<BR>Though<BR>&gt; if your exposure to NZ beer has been Steinlager and the various crap like<BR>DB<BR>&gt; Draught and Lion Red I'm not surprised you don't like it. For decent beer<BR>try<BR>&gt; Mac's or Montieth's. For drinkable mass-market Tui or Speight's<BR>(especially<BR>&gt; their Old Dark), and Waikato if you like a more bitter flavour.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:30:53 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Yeah, although they used old Zhodani Z-80 processors.<BR><BR>This is very, very sad of me, but here are the languages that I imagine<BR>resemble the programming languages that the Major Races would use:<BR><BR>Hivers - Lisp.<BR>Solomani - C++.<BR>Zhodani - Smalltalk.<BR>K'Kree - VB.<BR>Droyne - Forth.<BR>Aslan -&nbsp; &nbsp; Males -&nbsp; &nbsp; BASIC&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Females -&nbsp; &nbsp; COBOL<BR>Vargr - Perl.<BR><BR>And of course, Virus would use VBScript.<BR><BR>Drop these resemblances into your campaign as background colour for geeks....<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>Jeffrey Malone wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; By IBM one assumes you refer to "Imperial Business Machines", ne c'est pas?<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei, <BR>Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."<BR>- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:37:09 -0600<BR>From: "Dave McKenna" &lt;Dave.McKenna@MurrayState.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>&gt; 2)&nbsp; Correct me if I'm wrong (I could easily be) but isn't&nbsp; XML&nbsp; a<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; markup-language like&nbsp; HTML?&nbsp; Potentially&nbsp; useful&nbsp; as&nbsp; a&nbsp; data<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; exchange protocol (as Dave suggested), yes, but not an&nbsp; RDBMS<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; in itself?<BR><BR>I think of it as a parsing standard.&nbsp; Once you use XML to describe<BR>something, I'll know how to tear apart the XML packet in order to drop the<BR>data I need into my own data model, however different it may be from the<BR>data model that the data describing the something came out of.&nbsp; :-)<BR><BR>I think that coming up with datamodel that fits everone's needs is going to<BR>be stupifyingly difficult.&nbsp; However, if I have the freedom to design a<BR>database that meets my needs, and I am then able to "communicate" with other<BR>dbs and exchange data, my work is much reduced.&nbsp; If you come up with a new<BR>ship design, for instance, you can make the details public in the "standard"<BR>format, and I just need to import that into my database.&nbsp; Each individual<BR>that writes their "own" db just needs to write their own import utilities to<BR>parse through the XML structure and interpret the data properly for their<BR>backend.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:33:52 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>"Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Well we've just steam-rollered right over the current limit of my<BR>&gt; knowledge.&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>It's Zhodani mind-war. Report the perpetrator to IRIS.<BR><BR>&gt; 2)&nbsp; Correct me if I'm wrong (I could easily be) but isn't&nbsp; XML&nbsp; a<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; markup-language like&nbsp; HTML?&nbsp; Potentially&nbsp; useful&nbsp; as&nbsp; a&nbsp; data<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; exchange protocol (as Dave suggested), yes, but not an&nbsp; RDBMS<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; in itself?&nbsp; I was suggesting a common RDBMS&nbsp; which&nbsp; Traveller<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; programs could use ...&nbsp; with&nbsp; some&nbsp; sample&nbsp; downloadable&nbsp; DBs<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (based on existing online archives), but&nbsp; otherwise&nbsp; allowing<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; individuals to tailor the *data* within to their TU.<BR><BR>XML is a structured data format designed to be read into a tree<BR>structure in memory. An XML tree would be a common data format for<BR>exchanging data, and reading it into memory with SAX or whatever wwould<BR>give a standard (and easily understandable) data tree in memory.<BR><BR>So XML + XML Parser = XML data tree in memory. Close enough to an RDBMS,<BR>and with major advantages.<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei, <BR>Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."<BR>- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:46:13 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>A standard format for Universes is what I was thinking of. XML documents<BR>can include multiple dtd's (schemas), so if I write a cultural<BR>description format for worlds I can add that dtd to my program's XML<BR>files along with the standard one. Other programs can read and write,<BR>but not use, the data, so it's maintained.<BR><BR>Ships, characters, etc. are another area entirely. We do have UPPs and<BR>USPs to start from, though...<BR><BR>-Rob.<BR><BR>Dave McKenna wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I think that coming up with datamodel that fits everone's needs is going to<BR>&gt; be stupifyingly difficult.&nbsp; However, if I have the freedom to design a<BR>&gt; database that meets my needs, and I am then able to "communicate" with other<BR>&gt; dbs and exchange data, my work is much reduced.&nbsp; If you come up with a new<BR>&gt; ship design, for instance, you can make the details public in the "standard"<BR>&gt; format, and I just need to import that into my database.&nbsp; Each individual<BR>&gt; that writes their "own" db just needs to write their own import utilities to<BR>&gt; parse through the XML structure and interpret the data properly for their<BR>&gt; backend.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei, <BR>Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."<BR>- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:47:26 -0500<BR>From: Jonathan McDermott &lt;caraig@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 05:33:44 -0500<BR>&gt;From: "Greenly, Jeff" &lt;greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>&gt;Solomani Imperial Stout<BR>&gt;Extract Brew<BR>&gt;5 Gallon Batch from 6.3 Gal full boil<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;OG/FG: 1.075-1.090/1.020-1.030<BR>&gt;Alc.V: 7.5-8.9<BR>&gt;IBU: 75 +/- 5<BR>&gt;SRM: 40+<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;6.6 lbs Muntons Dark LME<BR>&gt;5.0 lbs Munton Light DME<BR>&gt;12 oz black patent malt<BR>&gt;1 lb roast non-malt barley<BR>&gt;12 oz 40L caramel malt<BR>&gt;1 lb chocolate malt<BR><BR>Chocolate?&nbsp; That'll get me to drinking at the very least THIS brew!&nbsp; Is <BR>this a common ingredient in making beer?<BR><BR>As someone mentioned later (I'm not sure who) I think this qualifies you as <BR>the official TML beerhead. =)&nbsp; This really was a fascinating read.<BR><BR>So... what would be in Scout Brew?&nbsp; Besides stuff that has to be set <BR>outside the jumpspace bubble for the better part of a week...?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:50:44 +1100<BR>From: "Jeffrey Malone" &lt;nparker1971@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>And dare I speculate, the Darrians use FORTRAN?<BR><BR>Lukim yu bihain.<BR><BR>J.M.M.<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 1:30 AM<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Yeah, although they used old Zhodani Z-80 processors.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This is very, very sad of me, but here are the languages that I imagine<BR>&gt; resemble the programming languages that the Major Races would use:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hivers - Lisp.<BR>&gt; Solomani - C++.<BR>&gt; Zhodani - Smalltalk.<BR>&gt; K'Kree - VB.<BR>&gt; Droyne - Forth.<BR>&gt; Aslan - Males - BASIC<BR>&gt; Females - COBOL<BR>&gt; Vargr - Perl.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; And of course, Virus would use VBScript.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Drop these resemblances into your campaign as background colour for<BR>geeks....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; - Rob.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Jeffrey Malone wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; By IBM one assumes you refer to "Imperial Business Machines", ne c'est<BR>pas?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/<BR>&gt; "Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."<BR>&gt;&nbsp; - Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:09:17 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Rob Myers wrote:<BR>&gt; XML is a structured data format designed to be read into a tree<BR>&gt; structure in memory. An XML tree would be a common data format for<BR>&gt; exchanging data, and reading it into memory with SAX or whatever<BR>&gt; wwould give a standard (and easily understandable) data tree in<BR>&gt; memory.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; So XML + XML Parser = XML data tree in memory. Close enough to an<BR>&gt; RDBMS, and with major advantages.<BR><BR>Er, so if my&nbsp; 'database'&nbsp; has&nbsp; grown&nbsp; to&nbsp; include&nbsp; all&nbsp; canonical<BR>sectors of the 3I and describes them down to the level&nbsp; generated<BR>by Heaven&amp;Earth (including planetary maps), isn't that going to<BR>(a) take a long time to load into memory, and<BR>(b) require an awful lot of memory?<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:21:35 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Rob Myers wrote:<BR>&gt; Here's a DTD for a simple-minded Traveller Markup Language. <BR>&gt; The world section is incomplete as I don't have the LBB's to <BR>&gt; hand. Possibly a common world representation usable by <BR>&gt; Traveller and GURPS could be found. The worlds, sectors and <BR>&gt; subsectors should be able to support arbitrary tags, so a doc <BR>&gt; could include tml.dtd, far-trader.dtd, etc and make sense of <BR>&gt; itself, but I don't know how to do that just now. :-) <BR><BR>A lot of this is still going&nbsp; over&nbsp; my&nbsp; head&nbsp; ...&nbsp; when&nbsp; I&nbsp; first<BR>thought of this I had in mind SQL but I guess I'm just showing my<BR>age.&nbsp; As for the GURPS issue (at the risk of causing&nbsp; offense)&nbsp; I<BR>consider CT, MT and T4 to be Traveller (rulesets),&nbsp; and&nbsp; TNE&nbsp; and<BR>GURPS to be *simulations* of Traveller.&nbsp; As such wouldn't it make<BR>sense to stick with&nbsp; a&nbsp; Traveller&nbsp; definition&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; data&nbsp; for<BR>storage (and transfer) purposes, and&nbsp; then&nbsp; offer&nbsp; GDW-House&nbsp; and<BR>GURPS runtime translations?<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:25:04 -0600<BR>From: "Dave McKenna" &lt;Dave.McKenna@MurrayState.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>&gt; Er, so if my&nbsp; 'database'&nbsp; has&nbsp; grown&nbsp; to&nbsp; include&nbsp; all&nbsp; canonical<BR>&gt; sectors of the 3I and describes them down to the level&nbsp; generated<BR>&gt; by Heaven&amp;Earth (including planetary maps), isn't that going to<BR>&gt; (a) take a long time to load into memory, and<BR>&gt; (b) require an awful lot of memory?<BR><BR>a) Yes<BR>b) Yes<BR><BR>Especially when you consider that, as a general rule of thumb, you can<BR>mulitply the size of any given data structure by about 10 when you<BR>encapsulate it in XML.&nbsp; However, you don't try to wrap an entire database<BR>into a single XML packet.&nbsp; Rather, distinct elements or entities can be<BR>encapsulated... like, for instance, a single system or world (depending on<BR>how the schema is put together).&nbsp; Rob's version .1 describes a system as per<BR>LBB stats; sector, subsector, mainworld UPP, GG presence, etc.&nbsp; This locates<BR>the world in 3space, but tells us nothing about the system two parsecs<BR>spinward.&nbsp; This is not that large a packet, individually - just one row in a<BR>db.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:25:02 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>At 11:03 PM 03/01/01 +1300, you wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;If it was a 7.0 there'd be an aweful lot of nothing standing for quite a<BR>ways <BR>&gt;around the epicentre.<BR><BR>Not necessarily.&nbsp; A deep quake is unlikely to produce many shear waves,<BR>which do most of the damage.<BR><BR>The 1989 Loma Prieta Quake did most of its damage 30+ miles from the<BR>epicenter.&nbsp; Part of it was the fact that the Marina District and Cypress<BR>Structure were built on landfull, which liquefied, but it was also the odd<BR>way the shock wave spread from the deep fault.<BR><BR>Yes, all Californians tend to know this much about earthquakes.<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>Embrace Fascism.&nbsp; &nbsp; The uniforms look cool<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:30:04 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>At 01:24 AM 03/02/01 +1300, you wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;On 1 Mar 2001, at 1:07, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; The USGS is recording the quake as a 6.8 The epicenter is reported to <BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; be 11 miles NE of Olympia and is 25-29 miles underground.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Good grief! That's down in the *mantle*, isn't it?<BR><BR>Yeppers.&nbsp; Upper layers of the Big Below.<BR><BR>&gt;Probably. It's fairly shallow by NZ standards. Most of our run at the 60-100 <BR>&gt;miles down range. I think it's because we're sitting over a subduction zone. <BR><BR>As is Seattle.&nbsp; They're in a weird little area where the NA and Pacific<BR>plates get sucked under.&nbsp; Us lucky Californians get much shallower quakes.<BR><BR>&gt;Generally the deeper it is the less horrid things happen right over it,<BR>but the <BR>&gt;further away you feel the effects.<BR><BR>*nod*&nbsp; The local geology also makes a big difference.&nbsp; Since the Pacific<BR>Northwest is covered in old volcanoes, the subsurface structures will<BR>produces some truly weird shears.&nbsp; This explains the different magnitude<BR>readings.. they're all right!<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes<BR>reliable internet access difficult to obtain.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Xaonon, in alt.atheism<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:40:31 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; If it was a 7.0 there'd be an aweful lot of nothing standing for quite a ways<BR>&gt; around the epicentre.<BR><BR>The epicenter was 25-30 miles below ground.<BR>If it was closer to the surface, you'd probably be right.<BR>Richter scale only measures the energy released at the<BR>epicenter, a different scale, I forget the name, measures<BR>the "intensity", which is how much destruction is done.<BR>Another factor is the duration of the episode.&nbsp; This one<BR>was pretty short.&nbsp; Generally, the longer the episode, the<BR>greater the damage, even though the Richter measurement<BR>is the same.<BR><BR>Richter scale is useless for measuring damage.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:46:04 -0700 <BR>From: Cliff Linehan &lt;clinehan@sfamipec.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Looking For...<BR><BR>Greetings All,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what<BR>can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>Clifford Linehan<BR>http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller<BR>Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:54:59 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: John Fox &lt;jfox@verity.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Ship Construction Rules<BR><BR>Hello Everyone:<BR>&nbsp; Is there a place where I can get rules for construction of Traveller ships?<BR>&nbsp; In particular I am looking for rules concerning freighters and small warships.<BR>&nbsp; Is there someplace on the web where this is located?<BR>&nbsp; I have seen some talk of superdense and other aspects of construction.&nbsp; Which <BR>rules do I use for this aspect?<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; Thanks in advance<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; John W. Fox<BR>&nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:57:22 -0600<BR>From: Victor Jason Raymond &lt;vraymond@iastate.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Looking For...<BR><BR>There was a White Dwarf article VERY long ago that described one.&nbsp; I can't <BR>recall if there was anything in the GDW house universe like it, though.<BR><BR>Victor Raymond<BR><BR>At 08:46 AM 3/1/01 -0700, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Greetings All,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what<BR>&gt;can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Thanks,<BR>&gt;Clifford Linehan<BR>&gt;http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller<BR>&gt;Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.<BR><BR>Victor Raymond<BR>vraymond@iastate.edu<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:58:37 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Timothy Tow &lt;t_pz_t@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Imperium blood chits?<BR><BR>What would Imperium-era blood chit look like? Would mercenaries also<BR>carry them in the Imperium for use in "little wars?"<BR><BR>In our current history, blood chits were documents carried by pilots<BR>(and other soliders?) that offered rewards to anyone who helped a pilot<BR>make it back safely from behind enemy lines. They were often printed in<BR>foreign languages of the country over which the pilot was flying and<BR>were numbered for identification purposes. For example, in WW II, blood<BR>chits for American pilots operating over China had the Nationalist flag<BR>printed on them and were sometimes affixed to the back of their flying<BR>jackets.<BR><BR>See http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/faq/policy_10.htm for the official DOD<BR>policy on their use now.<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3755<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (rly-zd01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.225]) by air-zd03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:01:06 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:00:34 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA45420;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:59:11 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:58:41 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id KAA45364<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:58:41 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:58:41 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103011558.KAA45364@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3755<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3756</B></TD></TR>
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<TD vAlign=top width="10%">Date: </TD>
<TD>3/1/01 1:10:15 PM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, March 1 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3756<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Ship Construction Rules<BR>Re: Ship Construction Rules<BR>RE: Ship Construction Rules<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>re: Looking For...<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>Hey Mark - RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Sayat<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3753<BR>Re: OT:&nbsp; Now that was weird<BR>Re: OT:&nbsp; Now that was weird<BR>Re: Looking For...<BR>Imperium blood chits?<BR>Re: Imperium blood chits?<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:58:06 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Dave McKenna wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Er, so if my&nbsp; 'database'&nbsp; has&nbsp; grown&nbsp; to&nbsp; include&nbsp; all&nbsp; canonical<BR>&gt; &gt; sectors of the 3I and describes them down to the level&nbsp; generated<BR>&gt; &gt; by Heaven&amp;Earth (including planetary maps), isn't that going to<BR>&gt; &gt; (a) take a long time to load into memory, and<BR>&gt; &gt; (b) require an awful lot of memory?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; a) Yes<BR>&gt; b) Yes<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Especially when you consider that, as a general rule of thumb,<BR>&gt; you can mulitply the size of any given data structure by about<BR>&gt; 10 when you encapsulate it in XML.&nbsp; However, you don't try to<BR>&gt; wrap an entire database into a single XML packet.&nbsp; Rather,<BR>&gt; distinct elements or entities can be encapsulated... like, for<BR>&gt; instance, a single system or world (depending on how the schema<BR>&gt; is put together).<BR><BR>And so if you then have an application that wants to identify all<BR>known&nbsp; non-aligned&nbsp; feudal&nbsp; technocracies&nbsp; with&nbsp; TL15&nbsp;&nbsp; class&nbsp;&nbsp; A<BR>starports and a military base elsewhere in the&nbsp; same&nbsp; system&nbsp; you<BR>have to scan all the XML packets?&nbsp; Sounds disk intensive.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:40:52 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Dave McKenna wrote:<BR>&gt; I think that coming up with datamodel that fits everone's needs<BR>&gt; is going to be stupifyingly difficult.&nbsp; However, if I have the<BR>&gt; freedom to design a database that meets my needs, and I am then<BR>&gt; able to "communicate" with other dbs and exchange data, my work<BR>&gt; is much reduced.&nbsp; If you come up with a new ship design, for<BR>&gt; instance, you can make the details public in the "standard"<BR>&gt; format, and I just need to import that into my database.&nbsp; Each<BR>&gt; individual that writes their "own" db just needs to write their<BR>&gt; own import utilities to parse through the XML structure and<BR>&gt; interpret the data properly for their backend.<BR><BR>If we set the scope to be just astrogation data&nbsp; (for&nbsp; now)&nbsp; then<BR>the high level definition has *already* been given to us&nbsp; in&nbsp; the <BR>published rules.&nbsp; For example, all&nbsp; mainworlds&nbsp; have&nbsp; a&nbsp; starport<BR>that is defined by a single ascii character with values A-E or X.<BR>(GURPS represents this as I, II, III, etc&nbsp; but&nbsp; this&nbsp; is&nbsp; can&nbsp; be<BR>thought of as a translation&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; underlying&nbsp; datum.)&nbsp; Around<BR>this common *core* you then add the parts you need for&nbsp; your&nbsp; own<BR>programs, and include the redefinition&nbsp; scripts&nbsp; in&nbsp; the&nbsp; program<BR>distribution package.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:54:39 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>You're absolutely right. :-)<BR><BR>So some sort of export-to/-from UPP functionality library would be useful, then?<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; If we set the scope to be just astrogation data&nbsp; (for&nbsp; now)&nbsp; then <BR>&gt; the high level definition has *already* been given to us&nbsp; in&nbsp; the&nbsp; <BR>&gt; published rules.&nbsp; <BR><BR>- --<BR>JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/<BR>Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,<BR>Edition en Anglais.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:08:57 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship Construction Rules<BR><BR>well Only thing i know of is HG2. I also believe there is a thing called<BR>Fire fusion and steel but i think that is for gurps traveller or something.<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>me<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: John Fox [mailto:jfox@verity.com]<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 7:55 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Ship Construction Rules<BR><BR><BR>Hello Everyone:<BR>&nbsp; Is there a place where I can get rules for construction of Traveller<BR>ships?<BR>&nbsp; In particular I am looking for rules concerning freighters and small<BR>warships.<BR>&nbsp; Is there someplace on the web where this is located?<BR>&nbsp; I have seen some talk of superdense and other aspects of construction.<BR>Which <BR>rules do I use for this aspect?<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; Thanks in advance<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; John W. Fox<BR>&nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:27:53 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Ship Construction Rules<BR><BR>On Thu, 1 Mar 2001, John Fox wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Is there a place where I can get rules for construction of Traveller ships?<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; In particular I am looking for rules concerning freighters and small warships.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Is there someplace on the web where this is located?<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have seen some talk of superdense and other aspects of construction.&nbsp; Which <BR>&gt; rules do I use for this aspect?<BR><BR>In the beginning, there was Book 2: Starships, followed by the short-lived<BR>High Guard, 1st edition and the much longer-lasting High Guard, 2nd<BR>edition (HG2).&nbsp; Book 2 and HG2 are available in the first of the Far<BR>Future Enterprises reprints, and HG2 is still very well regarded by many<BR>on this list.<BR>Then came MegaTraveller, which had construction rules, I believe, but I<BR>know very little about them.<BR>Then TNE brought us Fire, Fusion and Steel, the most insanely detailed and<BR>therefore best construction rules system yet :)&nbsp; Imperium Games published<BR>a later version of FF&amp;S, which has better rules in many ways but suffers<BR>from IG's attention (or lack of it) to editing and layout.<BR>GURPS uses a modular system, described in the main GURPS Traveller<BR>rulebook, which is based on GURPS Vehicles, I believe.<BR><BR>So if you want something that's in print, buy the Far Future reprint with<BR>HG2 or GURPS Traveller.&nbsp; Or check ebay and your favorite used game dealer<BR>for FF&amp;S.<BR><BR>As for superdense, it's a kind of hull material, and I don't know when it<BR>first appeared, but it was around by the time of FF&amp;S.<BR><BR>There are programs and spreadsheets on the web to help use these rules,<BR>but it's a good idea to actually read the rules first.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Greg Kettler<BR><BR>"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you<BR>may not actually need an explicit loop exit.&nbsp; The loop will be terminated<BR>automatically at the appropriate moment."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:33:21 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship Construction Rules<BR><BR>John Fox wrote:<BR>&gt; Is there a place where I can get rules for construction of <BR>&gt; Traveller ships?&nbsp; In particular I am looking for rules<BR>&gt; concerning freighters and small warships. Is there someplace<BR>&gt; on the web where this is located? I have seen some talk of<BR>&gt; superdense and other aspects of construction.&nbsp; Which rules<BR>&gt; do I use for this aspect?<BR><BR>AFAIK there are no full&nbsp; *web*&nbsp; resources&nbsp; (but&nbsp; there&nbsp; are&nbsp; some<BR>people's homebrew add-ons).&nbsp; The main source of the&nbsp; construction<BR>rules depends on what ruleset you are using:<BR><BR>- - CT had 2 different systems "Book 2" and "High Guard" ...&nbsp; these<BR>&nbsp; are both included in&nbsp; the&nbsp; first&nbsp; Classic&nbsp; Reprints&nbsp; book.&nbsp; The<BR>&nbsp; "Book 2" system has a max size of&nbsp; 5,000&nbsp; dtons,&nbsp; whereas&nbsp; High<BR>&nbsp; Guard has a max size of 1,000,000 dtons.<BR><BR>- - MT had 1 system that was in the Referee's Manual.&nbsp; IIRC this is<BR>&nbsp; where different hull material (like superdense) was introduced.<BR><BR>- - TNE had a special book called "Fire, Fusion &amp; Steel" (sometimes<BR>&nbsp; called FF&amp;S).&nbsp; FF&amp;S has better&nbsp; explanations&nbsp; of&nbsp; things&nbsp; (like<BR>&nbsp; superdense).<BR><BR>- - T4 had a couple of systems ... one&nbsp; is&nbsp; in&nbsp; a&nbsp; T4&nbsp; book&nbsp; called<BR>&nbsp; "Fire, Fusion &amp; Steel" (sometimes called FF&amp;S2).<BR><BR>- - GT uses ... er ... whatever GURPS uses, but it ain't metric.<BR><BR>Each&nbsp; set&nbsp; has&nbsp; different&nbsp; technology&nbsp; premises&nbsp; and&nbsp; levels&nbsp;&nbsp; of<BR>sophistication, and so your ships will turn&nbsp; out&nbsp; very&nbsp; different<BR>under each system.&nbsp; Therefore it is important to know the ruleset<BR>you are using.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:35:11 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Trevor, Peter writes:<BR>&gt; There are a number of software projects for Traveller&nbsp; (both&nbsp; old<BR>&gt; and new) that requires a&nbsp; database&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; Traveller&nbsp; Universe.<BR>&gt; There are drill-down mappers (like Galactic),&nbsp; there&nbsp; are&nbsp; system<BR>&gt; generators (like Heaven&amp;Earth), there are spreadsheets to analyse<BR>&gt; the Imperial budget, and it sounds like there is&nbsp; more&nbsp; than&nbsp; one<BR>&gt; person working on Traveller trading programs.<BR><BR>Hm...I'm not really 'working' on it any more.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Each of these programs uses its own proprietary file&nbsp; structures.<BR>&gt; Yet the core data *structure* is logically the same ...&nbsp; sectors,<BR>&gt; subsectors, hexes, UPP/UWP, trade codes, etc.<BR><BR>At the moment, the default format is variant Genii files -- i.e. based on<BR>the standard world extended UWP used in those files:<BR>Regina&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1910 A788899-C&nbsp; A Ri Cp&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 703 Im F7 V M8 D M6 V<BR><BR>I use Genii-based files, as does Galactic (I add some custom width headers,<BR>galactic breaks data into subsectors and forces certain column widths on <BR>that data).&nbsp; It isn't actually a hard format to work with.<BR><BR>&gt;... http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol)<BR><BR>Have you seen my site at http://maps.grandsurvey.com ?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:48:20 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Thing" &lt;thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;I was kind of amazed with how we both made it through just fine but <BR>&gt;because we couldn't get phone calls to each other and cell service was<BR>&gt;pretty much down we coudn't know for sure until we made it to the Ferry<BR>&gt;dock to meet up.<BR>&gt;It's kinda weird to be deprived of all the high tech means of <BR>&gt;communication.<BR><BR>My friends who live in Kent had a different experience.&nbsp; Their telephone<BR>service was out, but their cable modem service had no interruptions.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:47:16 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Rob Myers wrote:<BR>&gt; On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; If we set the scope to be just astrogation data&nbsp; (for&nbsp; now)&nbsp; then <BR>&gt; &gt; the high level definition has *already* been given to us&nbsp; in&nbsp; the&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; published rules.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; You're absolutely right. :-)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; So some sort of export-to/-from UPP functionality library <BR>&gt; would be useful, then?<BR><BR>What I originally had in mind (before this explosion of&nbsp; interest<BR>in XML) was to use a free/shareware RDBMS&nbsp; (preferably&nbsp; one&nbsp; that<BR>was ODBC compliant) as&nbsp; a&nbsp; common&nbsp; data&nbsp; container&nbsp; with&nbsp; just&nbsp; 1<BR>program equiped&nbsp; with&nbsp; various&nbsp; import/export&nbsp; filters&nbsp; for&nbsp; WBS,<BR>Genie/Sunbeam, SAR, etc.&nbsp; Then all other programs could use&nbsp; this<BR>common data container without a need for them to have any import/<BR>export functions of their own at all.&nbsp; Further, I&nbsp; was&nbsp; going&nbsp; to<BR>put forward my own drill-down&nbsp; mapper&nbsp; program&nbsp; as&nbsp; the&nbsp; database<BR>adminstration module ...&nbsp; but&nbsp; making&nbsp; the&nbsp; database&nbsp; design&nbsp; (at<BR>least) "open source" so that&nbsp; it&nbsp; could&nbsp; support&nbsp; other&nbsp; people's<BR>programs, too.<BR><BR>Now I have to get my&nbsp; head&nbsp; around&nbsp; the&nbsp; design&nbsp; and&nbsp; performance<BR>issues of using XML instead of an RDBMS and see what's what.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:56:08 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>&gt;From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR><BR>&gt;Good grief! That's down in the *mantle*, isn't it?<BR><BR>I suspect that the *mole men* experienced a horrible accident while<BR>preparing for an *invasion of the surface.*&nbsp; Could the Fantastic Four have<BR>been involved?&nbsp; They have not been seen at their New York laboratory for<BR>some weeks now.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:57:23 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Hmm, may I suggest a varient: Imperial Scout Extract Brew?<BR><BR>Rrafroughz stopped drinking Scout Brew when he found out it wasn't made<BR>from real Scouts.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:02:51 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Looking For...<BR><BR>&gt;From: Cliff Linehan &lt;clinehan@sfamipec.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what<BR>&gt;can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?<BR><BR>Check the Darrians Alien Module.&nbsp; I think they have a<BR>plasma-in-a-magnetic-field sculpture thing that can be made into a weapon.<BR>There was a big discussion about this some time ago on the TML; check the<BR>archives.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:03:46 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; Have you seen my site at http://maps.grandsurvey.com ?<BR><BR>Yes, and I may subject it to&nbsp; a&nbsp; Website&nbsp; Review.&nbsp; My&nbsp; "Big&nbsp; Map"<BR>project&nbsp; sort&nbsp; of fizzled out after I saw your&nbsp; site.&nbsp; Right&nbsp; now<BR>I'm focused on offline resources.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:13:17 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>ROFL!!!!<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Rrafroughz stopped drinking Scout Brew when he found out it wasn't made<BR>&gt; from real Scouts.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; --Glenn<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:13:17 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Hey Mark - RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>I think that calls for another t-shirt design along the lines of your<BR>Brubek's logo =D<BR><BR>Jesse<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:18:46 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR><BR>&gt; david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or<BR>&gt;&gt; Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.<BR><BR>Eeeeewww! They send Corona your way, too?? <BR><BR>Yuck! Piss in a bottle! _Bum_piss in a bottle! <BR><BR>I'll drink Budweiser before I'll drink Corona. <BR><BR>I'll drink _OLY_ before I'll drink Corona!<BR><BR>My current fave is Ommengang, a Belgian style ale brewed by the Ommengang Brewery, Cooperstown, NY. Quite tasty. <BR><BR>Alas, Jackhammer Stout, my actual real-live favorite beer is no longer available :-( The brewpub that made it went out of business.<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:27:49 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sayat<BR><BR>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Great, so after all this time I've been a member of TML,<BR>&gt;&gt; I *still* have no idea what the Sayat are or aren't.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The Sayat are a minor race of some sort that are fascinated with<BR>&gt; pelvic-mounted thrusters ... er, weapons systems.<BR><BR>BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You asked for it! From the archives, the infamous, the reknowned, the irreproducible SayBoom Pelvic Mount Plasma Projector, the most sick and twisted weapon of Mans destruction:<BR>=============================================================================<BR>&gt;From kenji@accessone.com Wed Oct 29 16:20:01 1997<BR>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:56:24 -0800<BR>From: Kenji Schwarz &lt;kenji@accessone.com&gt;<BR>Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM<BR>To: traveller@MPGN.COM<BR>Subject: Recoil in shame and horror --<BR><BR>- -- it's the SayBOOM Pelvic-Mount Plasma Projector!<BR><BR>Currently manufactured by the Sayat Board of Organization and Oversight for<BR>Munitions, the PMPP was originally designed as a novelty item for the<BR>domestic market.&nbsp; It is, however, exported in some quantity to the<BR>Imperium, where it is popular with collectors and certain paramilitary<BR>organizations.<BR><BR>The optional Kegel trigger of earlier models has now been discontinued, as<BR>numerous accidental discharges had resulted in injury and death.&nbsp; A variety<BR>of manual or voice-activated triggering devices are available from the<BR>manufacturer and many local retailers.&nbsp; The extremely popular "pop-up"<BR>holster is now factory-packaged with each weapon, though it requires fairly<BR>extensive adjustment and custom fitting to function correctly.&nbsp; The<BR>Imperial Ministry of Commerce has not yet handed down a ruling on whether<BR>the PMPP is to be regulated as a "concealable weapon", however.<BR><BR>Users should also be warned that "boinging" and lateral wobble makes firing<BR>in motion or turning rapidly a highly inaccurate and dangerous endeavour.<BR>Owners are strongly urged not to attempt to emulate usage of the PMPP seen<BR>in action/adventure holovids.&nbsp; Furthermore, after firing the barrel remains<BR>superheated, and incautious users may burn themselves.&nbsp; Finally, the PMPP's<BR>extreme recoil requires that the shock-absorbing harness be worn properly<BR>to minimize the possibility of severe internal damage.&nbsp; SayBOOM are said to<BR>be investigating the application of gravitic stabilization to further<BR>improve accuracy and aim.<BR><BR>Weapon Type:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TL-11 manual repeater plasma frontarm<BR><BR>Ammunition:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2.8x8.5 cm CPC<BR>Pulse Energy:&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 90 kJ<BR>Weapon Length:&nbsp; &nbsp; 30.4 cm<BR>Weapon Weight:&nbsp; &nbsp; 4.188 kg loaded, 3.108 kg empty with no magazine<BR><BR>Weapon Price:&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Cr1322<BR>Magazine Weight:&nbsp; 1.08 kg loaded, 0 kg empty<BR><BR>Features:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Laser sight, shock absorber<BR><BR>Range 30m, recoil 6.266<BR><BR>Mark Miller's Traveller<BR>Name&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Damage&nbsp;&nbsp; TL&nbsp;&nbsp; Range&nbsp;&nbsp; Shots&nbsp;&nbsp; Mass&nbsp; &nbsp; Reloads&nbsp;&nbsp; Cost<BR>Plasma Novelty&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp;&nbsp; Short&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 4.2 kg&nbsp;&nbsp; 1.1 kg&nbsp;&nbsp; Cr1325<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:38:44 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Rob Myers wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Vargr - Perl.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Gnnngghhhkkkkk! OWWW Cooffee through the nose is painful!<BR><BR>Chalk up a keyboard kill...we have a perl coder here who writes like I <BR>imagine a Vargr would...;-)<BR><BR>(And no it's not me!)<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:10:03 -0000<BR>From: "Stuart Ferris" &lt;stuart.ferris@virgin.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3753<BR><BR>Frank wrote:-<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program<BR>&gt;&gt; like you form the basis of an argument then I take<BR>&gt;&gt; it you fall into the latter catagory.<BR><BR>&gt;What was that about pots calling kettles black ?<BR><BR>I suggest that you wait until you've produced a program that does half of<BR>what H&amp;E can achieve before you express similar opinions.<BR><BR>Stuart Ferris<BR>stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR><BR>"A people should know when they're conquered"<BR>Quintus Magnus, Regimental Commander, Army of the North<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:02:25 +0000<BR>From: Simon Brodie &lt;mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: OT:&nbsp; Now that was weird<BR><BR>"Alistair J. R. Young" wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Ah, a heisenbug!<BR><BR>Gesundeheit!<BR><BR>:-)<BR><BR>Si<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:02:25 +0000<BR>From: Simon Brodie &lt;mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: OT:&nbsp; Now that was weird<BR><BR>"Alistair J. R. Young" wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Ah, a heisenbug!<BR><BR>Gesundeheit!<BR><BR>:-)<BR><BR>Si<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:35:38 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Looking For...<BR><BR>It was "laser swords and foils".&nbsp; I have a copy if anyone is interested.<BR>Personally, my oarticular favorite was "Chainsaw combat in Traveller"&nbsp; which<BR>included rules for a fusion chainsaw.<BR><BR><BR>Bzzzzz, Bzzzzzz. "Now, the leg"<BR>- -Scarface<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Victor Jason Raymond" &lt;vraymond@iastate.edu&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 7:57 AM<BR>Subject: Re: Looking For...<BR><BR><BR>&gt; There was a White Dwarf article VERY long ago that described one.&nbsp; I can't<BR>&gt; recall if there was anything in the GDW house universe like it, though.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Victor Raymond<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; At 08:46 AM 3/1/01 -0700, you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;Greetings All,<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to<BR>what<BR>&gt; &gt;can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Thanks,<BR>&gt; &gt;Clifford Linehan<BR>&gt; &gt;http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller<BR>&gt; &gt;Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Victor Raymond<BR>&gt; vraymond@iastate.edu<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 20:22:43 -0000<BR>From: "Peter Scarrott" &lt;peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Imperium blood chits?<BR><BR>How true this is I'm not 100% certain, but it was told to me by a friend<BR>(Tornado pilot) on his return to my base after the War.<BR><BR>During the Gulf War British pilots carried bloodchits wrapped around 2(?)<BR>gold sovreigns that basically said (in many local languages).<BR><BR>"You can keep the gold sovreigns, however should this person be handed to<BR>allied forces alive you will receive 4 more.&nbsp; If he is fit well and whole,<BR>you will receive 8, if his manhood is still attached you will receive 10."<BR><BR>The latter to prevent the traditional gelding of prisoners by bedouin.<BR><BR>he also mentioned that the American pilots had laughed at these chits, until<BR>they were translated, but then had to borrow british ones as the US Air<BR>Force could not (would not?) supply the gold sovreigns only US dollars.&nbsp; the<BR>locals had NO use for dollars and a lot of respect for gold.<BR><BR>- - - - - - - - - - - start quote - - - - - - - - -<BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:58:37 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Timothy Tow &lt;t_pz_t@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Imperium blood chits?<BR><BR>What would Imperium-era blood chit look like? Would mercenaries also<BR>carry them in the Imperium for use in "little wars?"<BR><BR>In our current history, blood chits were documents carried by pilots<BR>(and other soliders?) that offered rewards to anyone who helped a pilot<BR>make it back safely from behind enemy lines. They were often printed in<BR>foreign languages of the country over which the pilot was flying and<BR>were numbered for identification purposes. For example, in WW II, blood<BR>chits for American pilots operating over China had the Nationalist flag<BR>printed on them and were sometimes affixed to the back of their flying<BR>jackets.<BR><BR>See http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/faq/policy_10.htm for the official DOD<BR>policy on their use now.<BR>- - - - - - - - - - - - end quote - - - - - -<BR>Peter<BR>http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav &amp; AD&amp;D)<BR>peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR><BR>IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so&nbsp; zh+<BR>vi-<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR><BR>Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.'&nbsp; He may not have one.<BR>Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:37:56 -0600<BR>From: "Thomas Vickers" &lt;tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Imperium blood chits?<BR><BR>traveller@lists.ient.com writes:<BR>&gt;During the Gulf War British pilots carried bloodchits wrapped around 2(?)<BR>&gt;gold sovreigns that basically said (in many local languages).<BR><BR>SAS units operating in the gulf carried them also.<BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________<BR>We're not just going th shoot the bastards. We are going to cut out their<BR>living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. WE are going to<BR>murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; George C. Scott (Patton)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 12:57:43 -0800<BR>From: Russell Bornschlegel &lt;kaleja@estarcion.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Rob Meyers wrote:<BR>&gt; This is very, very sad of me, but here are the languages that I imagine<BR>&gt; resemble the programming languages that the Major Races would use:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hivers - Lisp.<BR>&gt; Solomani - C++.<BR>&gt; Zhodani - Smalltalk.<BR>&gt; K'Kree - VB.<BR>&gt; Droyne - Forth.<BR>&gt; Aslan - Males - BASIC&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Females -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; COBOL<BR>&gt; Vargr - Perl.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; And of course, Virus would use VBScript.<BR><BR>Surely Vilani would have to use COBOL? <BR><BR>- -RB<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3756<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xa03.mx.aol.com (rly-xa03.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.72]) by air-xa03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:10:15 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xa03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:09:51 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA59283;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:08:58 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:07:31 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA59215<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:07:30 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:07:30 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103012107.QAA59215@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3756<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, March 1 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3757<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>Re: Looking For ... (cf 'Be careful what you ...)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>Re: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Hey Mark - RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>Re: Looking For...<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>RE: Ship Construction Rules<BR>Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Ship Construction Rules<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>THANKS!<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>Re: THANKS!<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 08:18:33 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;What I'd like to propose is that future databases be built&nbsp; to&nbsp; a<BR>&gt;common database design, which other programs can&nbsp; call&nbsp; from&nbsp; and<BR>&gt;add to.&nbsp; People would still be free to write their own&nbsp; programs,<BR>&gt;but with a central point for database&nbsp; design&nbsp; changes.&nbsp; So&nbsp; when<BR>&gt;you write a Traveller program it can share data&nbsp; with&nbsp; any&nbsp; other<BR>&gt;Traveller programs you have (without having&nbsp; to&nbsp; reinvent&nbsp; import<BR>&gt;and export routines every time, and store the data redundantly in<BR>&gt;multiple formats).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;At present I am writing a&nbsp; Windows-based drill&nbsp; down&nbsp; mapper&nbsp; and<BR>&gt;database maintenance&nbsp; program&nbsp; that&nbsp; stores&nbsp; data&nbsp; in&nbsp; an&nbsp; Access<BR>&gt;database.&nbsp; I chose Access because it was free (you don't need the<BR>&gt;MS Access program to have an Access database) but I'm willing&nbsp; to<BR>&gt;look at other databases systems (like FileMaker).<BR><BR>I am strongly against using Access for this. I'd be much happier with something like one of the variants <BR>of SQL (I have stayed out of the VB debate, except to say I prefer Sheaf or Boags Stout. And that one <BR>of my co-workers has had her life made hell for the last twelve months because a bunch of <BR>incompetant brain-dead fuckwits who are incapable outside their VB/Access comfort zone and <BR>incompetant within it thought that programming a government Fraud database in VB was a good idea. <BR>As a business user, I am a language snob. becasue as the inept can get VB to run, it is often the <BR>language of choice for the inept. Therefore, by choosing something else as a platform, you have less <BR>chance of hiring the inept).<BR><BR>Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer sense (hey, this links the beer thread to the <BR>programming thread) or as in free speech sense ?<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 08:29:55 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Looking For ... (cf 'Be careful what you ...)<BR><BR>&gt;From: Cliff Linehan &lt;clinehan@sfamipec.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Looking For...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Greetings All,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what<BR>&gt;can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Thanks,<BR>&gt;Clifford Linehan<BR><BR>Dunno about 'canon', but Famile Spofulam do sell a fine homebrew kit, to let you build an analogue - 8 <BR>small PAWs mounted into a handle, each firing every quarter-second or so.<BR><BR>This means that every 0.03 seconds there is a small PAW discharge, which does a pretty good <BR>imitation of a lightsabre.<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR>Personal Assistant<BR>Ms Ditzammer Spofulam<BR>Executive Vice-President<BR>Famile Spofulam<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:50:47 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 14:30, Rob Myers wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Yeah, although they used old Zhodani Z-80 processors.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; This is very, very sad of me, but here are the languages that I imagine<BR>&gt; resemble the programming languages that the Major Races would use:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hivers - Lisp.<BR>&gt; Solomani - C++.<BR>&gt; Zhodani - Smalltalk.<BR>&gt; K'Kree - VB.<BR>&gt; Droyne - Forth.<BR>&gt; Aslan -&nbsp; &nbsp; Males -&nbsp; &nbsp; BASIC&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Females -&nbsp; &nbsp; COBOL<BR>&gt; Vargr - Perl.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; And of course, Virus would use VBScript.<BR><BR>And nobody uses stright C. That's so sad.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:50:47 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>On 2 Mar 2001, at 1:18, Jeffrey Malone wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; "Old Dark Speight's" seems to smack too much of political instability in the<BR>&gt; South Pacific...perhaps staying with SweinLarger (beer brewed through a pig?)<BR>&gt; might be a better idea after all...<BR><BR>First time anyone's ever said anything like that about Speight's Old Dark. :)<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:52:11 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 9:47, Jonathan McDermott wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; As someone mentioned later (I'm not sure who) I think this qualifies you as the<BR>&gt; official TML beerhead. =)&nbsp; <BR><BR>Not to be insulting, but the correct term should really be pisshead. :)<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:54:04 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 7:25, Douglas Berry wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; At 11:03 PM 03/01/01 +1300, you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;If it was a 7.0 there'd be an aweful lot of nothing standing for quite a<BR>&gt; ways <BR>&gt; &gt;around the epicentre.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Not necessarily.&nbsp; A deep quake is unlikely to produce many shear waves,<BR>&gt; which do most of the damage.<BR><BR>By local (NZ) standards this one wasn't deep.<BR><BR>&gt; The 1989 Loma Prieta Quake did most of its damage 30+ miles from the<BR>&gt; epicenter.&nbsp; Part of it was the fact that the Marina District and Cypress<BR>&gt; Structure were built on landfull, which liquefied, but it was also the odd<BR>&gt; way the shock wave spread from the deep fault.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Yes, all Californians tend to know this much about earthquakes.<BR><BR>We tend to have a bit of an idea, too. At the time I wrote that comment I <BR>didn't know just how deep or shallow it was.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 13:47:39 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Hey Mark - RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>Jesse Degraff &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;I think that calls for another t-shirt design along the lines of your<BR>&gt;Brubek's logo =D<BR><BR>Sure!!&nbsp; Somebody suggest a design, I'll build it!<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:54:53 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Looking For...<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;It was "laser swords and foils".&nbsp; I have a copy if anyone is interested.<BR>&gt;Personally, my oarticular favorite was "Chainsaw combat in Traveller"&nbsp; <BR>&gt;which included rules for a fusion chainsaw.<BR><BR>Chainsaw combat in Traveller ... so I _can_ spring a Doom scenario on my<BR>unsuspecting players in a much more complete fashion than I had ever<BR>dreamed possible ... mwahahahaha hahaha<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:57:52 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 9:40, Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; If it was a 7.0 there'd be an aweful lot of nothing standing for quite a ways<BR>&gt; &gt; around the epicentre.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The epicenter was 25-30 miles below ground.<BR>&gt; If it was closer to the surface, you'd probably be right.<BR>&gt; Richter scale only measures the energy released at the<BR>&gt; epicenter, a different scale, I forget the name, measures<BR>&gt; the "intensity", which is how much destruction is done.<BR><BR>Mercali ?<BR><BR>&gt; Another factor is the duration of the episode.&nbsp; This one<BR>&gt; was pretty short.&nbsp; Generally, the longer the episode, the<BR>&gt; greater the damage, even though the Richter measurement<BR>&gt; is the same.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Richter scale is useless for measuring damage.<BR><BR>I know. Some of the more damaging local quakes have been relatively small, but <BR>shallow. There've been some quite powerful ones recently that have been felt <BR>across a radius of one or two hundred miles, but done no damage at all because <BR>they were down 60 - 100 miles.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:59:24 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ship Construction Rules<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 9:08, William Lane wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; well Only thing i know of is HG2. I also believe there is a thing called<BR>&gt; Fire fusion and steel but i think that is for gurps traveller or something.<BR><BR>Now that could be construed as an insult, you know. :)<BR><BR>Fire, Fusion &amp; Steel was for TNE.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:04:19 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 11:18, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Alas, Jackhammer Stout, my actual real-live favorite beer is no longer available<BR>&gt; :-( The brewpub that made it went out of business.<BR><BR>Hate it when that happens. I miss the days of batch brewed beer (not that there <BR>was much left when I started my beer drinking days) - never knowing exactly <BR>what the beer would be like one crate to the next made it so much more of an <BR>adventure.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:04:19 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Ship Construction Rules<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 11:27, Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; As for superdense, it's a kind of hull material, and I don't know when it<BR>&gt; first appeared, but it was around by the time of FF&amp;S.<BR><BR>Striker's vehicle construction rules, I think.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:06:23 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 11:38, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Rob Myers wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Vargr - Perl.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Gnnngghhhkkkkk! OWWW Cooffee through the nose is painful!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Chalk up a keyboard kill...we have a perl coder here who writes like I <BR>&gt; imagine a Vargr would...;-)<BR><BR>With flair, and contempt for convention?<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:12:29 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 2 Mar 2001, at 8:18, Ian or Katts wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I am strongly against using Access for this. I'd be much happier with something<BR>&gt; like one of the variants of SQL (I have stayed out of the VB debate, except to<BR>&gt; say I prefer Sheaf or Boags Stout. And that one of my co-workers has had her<BR>&gt; life made hell for the last twelve months because a bunch of incompetant<BR>&gt; brain-dead fuckwits who are incapable outside their VB/Access comfort zone and<BR>&gt; incompetant within it thought that programming a government Fraud database in VB<BR>&gt; was a good idea. As a business user, I am a language snob. becasue as the inept<BR>&gt; can get VB to run, it is often the language of choice for the inept. Therefore,<BR>&gt; by choosing something else as a platform, you have less chance of hiring the<BR>&gt; inept).<BR><BR>My flatmate is currently employed by a bank. He gets to do COBAL stuff, mainly <BR>fixing legacy code that barely works, was written by a drunk Vargr (or maybe a <BR>squirrel being chased by one), and has no documentation. I think that by not <BR>using VB all you do is get more 'qualified' inept.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 02:18:48 +0400<BR>From: Andrew Long &lt;andylong@emirates.net.ae&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:16:30 +1100<BR>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>&lt;Snip&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or<BR>&gt;Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.<BR>&gt;<BR>But at least it's better than the 'Amber Nectar'<BR><BR>Andy<BR>&nbsp; _____&nbsp; <BR><BR>Andrew Long &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Email &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Or&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>c/o EPMTS&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; AndrewLong@HotMail.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Or&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>P.O. Box 46426 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; AndyLong@BigPond.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>Abu Dhabi &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Phone &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +971 (50) 661 0254 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobile &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>United Arab Emirates &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +971 (2) 671 0434 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Home/Fax &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; _____&nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:25:27 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On 1 Mar 2001, at 11:38, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Rob Myers wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Vargr - Perl.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Gnnngghhhkkkkk! OWWW Cooffee through the nose is painful!<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Chalk up a keyboard kill...we have a perl coder here who writes like I <BR>&gt;&gt; imagine a Vargr would...;-)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; With flair, and contempt for convention?<BR><BR>Nah, with Chaos and a contempt for Comments...<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:33:22 -0500<BR>From: Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>Subject: THANKS!<BR><BR>Just a quick note to let you all know that, thanks to you, my loyal<BR>visitors and authors, Freelance Traveller has reached an important<BR>milestone - for the first time, there have been over 500 visits to the site<BR>in a single week.<BR><BR>The next milestone is to get the four-week moving average up to that level!<BR>- --<BR>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:49:38 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 15:25, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Chalk up a keyboard kill...we have a perl coder here who writes like I <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; imagine a Vargr would...;-)<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; With flair, and contempt for convention?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Nah, with Chaos and a contempt for Comments...<BR><BR>Ah. A Vargr of the Dark Side.<BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:52:55 -0000<BR>From: "Stuart Ferris" &lt;stuart.ferris@virgin.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>One thing that hasn't been considered is the use of random number seeding.<BR>One of the important features of H&amp;E is the fact the only thing users<BR>require to share data is a Sector File (in whatever format) plus a random<BR>number seed.<BR><BR>Any system generated using the same random number seed will always produce<BR>the same results. There isn't a need to develop database structures.<BR><BR>One of the reasons why I have always put off developing a database structure<BR>for H&amp;E is the fact that the program simply generates too much data and to<BR>be honest system data simply doesn't lend itself to being stored in a<BR>database.<BR><BR>One thing that was looked at in the early days of WBD was an Extended UWP<BR>format which was retained in H&amp;E. However, despite best efforts from a small<BR>group of people this format was generally overlooked.<BR><BR>On the topic of XML it is all very well to discuss the subject on the list,<BR>but does everyone interested truly have the resolve to see the thing through<BR>to fruition? To be honest I doubt it. I think you'll be hard pushed to agree<BR>a format and the idea will be forgotten.<BR><BR>Stuart Ferris<BR>stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR><BR>"A people should know when they're conquered"<BR>Quintus Magnus, Regimental Commander, Army of the North<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:53:50 -0500 (EST)<BR>From: Michael Houghton &lt;herveus@Radix.Net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Howdy!<BR><BR>&gt; Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; On 1 Mar 2001, at 11:38, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Rob Myers wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Vargr - Perl.<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Gnnngghhhkkkkk! OWWW Cooffee through the nose is painful!<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Chalk up a keyboard kill...we have a perl coder here who writes like I <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; imagine a Vargr would...;-)<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; With flair, and contempt for convention?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Nah, with Chaos and a contempt for Comments...<BR>&gt; <BR>In Vargr? You know, it is now possible to write an entire Perl script in <BR>Latin, with the flexible word order, and using declensions and cases to <BR>sort out the distinction between scalars, lists, hashes, refs, and all that<BR>stuff. No funny characters, using roman numerals, and all that.<BR><BR>The sick and perverted Damian Conway has released Lingua::Romana::Perligata<BR>(I think), and shown in a paper snippets of what could be the Klingonese<BR>version. <BR><BR>Having a script begin:<BR><BR>#!/usr/bin/perl -w<BR>use Lingua::Vargr;<BR><BR>&lt;remainder in Vargr&gt;<BR><BR><BR>is quite within reach...<BR><BR>yours,<BR>Michael<BR>- -- <BR>Michael and MJ Houghton&nbsp;&nbsp; | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>herveus@radix.net&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>Bowie, MD, USA&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:19:53 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 2 Mar 2001, at 8:18, Ian or Katts wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer sense (hey, this<BR>&gt; links the beer thread to the programming thread) or as in free speech sense ?<BR><BR>InterBase. Free and Open Source.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:26:43 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: THANKS!<BR><BR>On Thu, 1 Mar 2001, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>&gt; Just a quick note to let you all know that, thanks to you, my loyal<BR>&gt; visitors and authors, Freelance Traveller has reached an important<BR>&gt; milestone - for the first time, there have been over 500 visits to the site<BR>&gt; in a single week.<BR><BR>You're welcome.<BR>Wait.&nbsp; That's all wrong.&nbsp; Shouldn't you be the one saying "you're<BR>welcome," ideally after we all say thanks for providing a great site?<BR>Thanks.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Greg Kettler<BR><BR>"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you<BR>may not actually need an explicit loop exit.&nbsp; The loop will be terminated<BR>automatically at the appropriate moment."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:46:03 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Stuart Ferris wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; One thing that hasn't been considered is the use of random number seeding.<BR>&gt; One of the important features of H&amp;E is the fact the only thing users<BR>&gt; require to share data is a Sector File (in whatever format) plus a random<BR>&gt; number seed.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Any system generated using the same random number seed will always produce<BR>&gt; the same results. There isn't a need to develop database structures.<BR><BR>That is, alas, one of the Windows-only things preventing H&amp;E from being ported to other platforms. A random number seed will only prduce the same series of numbers using the same random number sequence generator. Even Non-MS compilers on Windows machines will produce different random numbers.<BR><BR>&gt; One of the reasons why I have always put off developing a database structure<BR>&gt; for H&amp;E is the fact that the program simply generates too much data and to<BR>&gt; be honest system data simply doesn't lend itself to being stored in a<BR>&gt; database.<BR><BR>As someone who is an SQL coder for a living I would suggest that an impolite term starting with 'boll' and ending with 'ocks' is an appropriate response to that.<BR><BR>An intelligent and orthagonal database design will store system information quite well, particularly if you can have OO elements. In addition a well-designed database lends itself to multiple uses.<BR><BR>Then again, as as someone who is an SQL coder for a living I'd realize that I have a lot of suspiciously hammer-like tools in my tool box. ;-)<BR><BR>&gt; On the topic of XML it is all very well to discuss the subject on the list,<BR>&gt; but does everyone interested truly have the resolve to see the thing through<BR>&gt; to fruition? To be honest I doubt it. I think you'll be hard pushed to agree<BR>&gt; a format and the idea will be forgotten.<BR><BR>It depends entirely on whether there are XML-capable folks on the list. XML is new, the tools are limited and not a lot of people know how to use it.<BR><BR>On the other hand it's an order or two of magnitude more powerful than <BR>HTML is. It took quite a while for html to catch on, too.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:57:54 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Good grief! That's down in the *mantle*, isn't it?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I suspect that the *mole men* experienced a horrible accident while<BR>&gt; preparing for an *invasion of the surface.*&nbsp; Could the Fantastic <BR>&gt; Four have been involved?&nbsp; They have not been seen at their New York<BR>laboratory <BR>&gt; for some weeks now.<BR><BR>Actually, the FF are in space right now, dealing with the Aslan.&nbsp; And<BR>while the media are blaming the mole men for all this, my sources<BR>indicate that it's actually *Superman's* fault.&nbsp; You know how he always<BR>tunnels through the earth?&nbsp; I knew that, sooner or later, that was bound<BR>to screw up the fault lines.&nbsp; Damn kryptonian's more arrogant than the<BR>Zhodani.<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:03:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson writes:<BR><BR>&gt; That is, alas, one of the Windows-only things preventing H&amp;E from being<BR>&gt; ported to other platforms. A random number seed will only prduce the same series of numbers using the same random number sequence generator. Even Non-MS compilers on Windows machines will produce different random numbers. <BR><BR>You can, of course, write your own randomizer.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; One of the reasons why I have always put off developing a database<BR>&gt; &gt; structure for H&amp;E is the fact that the program simply generates too much<BR>&gt; &gt; data and to be honest system data simply doesn't lend itself to being<BR>&gt; &gt; stored in a database.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; As someone who is an SQL coder for a living I would suggest that an<BR>&gt; impolite term starting with 'boll' and ending with 'ocks' is an appropriate response to that. <BR><BR>Your average sector is about 450 worlds.&nbsp; Give it 1k per world and that's<BR>10-20 megabytes for the entire imperium.&nbsp; That's what I call a 'tiny<BR>database'.&nbsp; I don't know what H&amp;E produces, but I doubt it's more than 1k<BR>per world.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 00:04:57 +0000<BR>From: Dominic Mooney &lt;dom@cybergoths.u-net.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law<BR><BR>At 09:42 -0500 28/2/01, Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;Actually, whether it's actionable or not would depend on what the book was<BR>&gt;about.&nbsp; If it were a treatise on strange reptilian beasts actually kept in<BR>&gt;the basements of European castles, you'd probably get away with it.&nbsp; That's<BR>&gt;one of the reasons we have Apple Computer and Apple Records, two unrelated<BR>&gt;companies.&nbsp; It was ruled that the spheres of influence of the two companies<BR>&gt;were dissimilar enough that no trademark infringement could take place.<BR><BR>Hence the MacOS system sound 'Sosumi', allegedly.<BR><BR>Dom<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 00:10:43 +0000<BR>From: Dominic Mooney &lt;dom@cybergoths.u-net.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>At 17:41 -0500 28/2/01,&nbsp; "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.<BR>&gt;Sounds like a small difference but the difference between<BR>&gt;a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!<BR><BR>The Richter scale is logarithmic if I remember correctly, so there's <BR>an order of magnitude in the rating.<BR><BR>Dom<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:28:44 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 16:46, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; As someone who is an SQL coder for a living I would suggest that an impolite<BR>&gt; term starting with 'boll' and ending with 'ocks' is an appropriate response to<BR>&gt; that.<BR><BR>Just off the top of my head (without really bothering with any design work <BR>and only a month's worth of SQL)<BR><BR>CONNECT "c:\temp\Imperium.gdb"<BR>USER "SYSDBA" PASSWORD "masterkey";<BR><BR>DROP database;<BR><BR>CREATE database "c:\temp\Imperium.gdb"<BR>USER "SYSDBA" PASSWORD "masterkey";<BR><BR><BR>/*These create the tables and determine what type of data to store in <BR>them*/<BR><BR><BR>CREATE TABLE System<BR>(<BR>Sector&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Char(2) not null,<BR>Hex&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Integer not null,<BR>Name&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Char(14),<BR><BR>Primary Key (Sector, Hex)<BR>);<BR><BR>CREATE TABLE Star<BR>(<BR>Sector&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Char(2) not null,<BR>Hex&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Integer not null,<BR>Name&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Char(14),<BR>StarNo&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Integer not null,<BR>SpectralMain&nbsp; &nbsp; Char(1) not null,<BR>SpectralSub&nbsp; &nbsp; Integer,<BR>Sequence&nbsp; &nbsp; Char(1) not null,<BR>Orbit&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Integer, /* In 0.01 of AUs */<BR><BR>Primary Key (Sector, Hex, StarNo)<BR>Foreign Key (Sector, Hex) references System (System, Hex)<BR>);<BR><BR>CREATE TABLE World.... etc<BR><BR>COMMIT;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3757<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (rly-zc03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.3]) by air-zc01.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:32:10 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:31:24 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA68921;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:28:47 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:28:16 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id TAA68860<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:28:16 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:28:16 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103020028.TAA68860@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3757<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, March 2 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3758<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: [TML] Looking For...<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: Looking For...<BR>Re: Looking For...<BR>Help!<BR>Re: Imperium blood chits?<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3753<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>RE: New Traveller software project<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Famille Spofulam News Brief.<BR>Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>OT Nonsense<BR>Re: OT Nonsense<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Help!<BR>Re: Help!<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>Wealth (Was: Nobles and the Imperium)<BR>Re: Nobles and the imperium<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:08:10 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>Dean wrote:<BR>&gt;Hmm, may I suggest a varient: Imperial Scout Extract Brew?<BR><BR>Ah, beer brewed through a Scout, eh?<BR><BR>- - Hyphen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:54:59 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; IBM?&nbsp; I thought they were TRS-80's... Solomani infiltrators also managed to<BR>&gt; hijack a shipment of cassette tapes destined for said computers (remember<BR>&gt; the tape drives?) and replaced them with 8-tracks...<BR><BR>Hey! I still own most of my TRS-80 gear! And I wrote traveller software<BR>for it that I'll some day get around to porting.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 20:12:07 -0500<BR>From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" &lt;caraig@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [TML] Looking For...<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:35:38 -0800<BR>&gt;From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: Looking For...<BR><BR>&gt;Personally, my oarticular favorite was "Chainsaw combat in <BR>&gt;Traveller"&nbsp; which included rules for a fusion chainsaw.<BR><BR>"Groovy."<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:44:34 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>At 09:40 AM 03/01/01 -0600, you wrote:<BR>&gt;The epicenter was 25-30 miles below ground.<BR>&gt;If it was closer to the surface, you'd probably be right.<BR><BR>Minor correction.. "Epicenter" is the location on the surface directly<BR>above the quake point.&nbsp; But you are right, depth is a vital factor.<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:45:07 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Looking For...<BR><BR>At 08:46 AM 03/01/01 -0700, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Greetings All,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what<BR>&gt;can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?<BR><BR>No.<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:01:56 -0500<BR>From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>Subject: Re: Looking For...<BR><BR>&gt;Greetings All,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what<BR>&gt;can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?<BR><BR>ISTR a mention somewhere, probably either Book 0 or a JTAS editorial, mentioning light sabers as the sort of cool-looking-but-impossible thing that individual refs could add to their games, but which weren't going to be included in 'real' Traveller.&nbsp; Probably not the sort of 'canon reference' you were looking for...<BR><BR>Trent<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:10:03<BR>From: "Douglas E. Berry" &lt;gridlore@pop.mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Help!<BR><BR>I admit technological ignorance.<BR><BR>Somehow, I have ended up subscribed to the list twice.&nbsp; once as<BR>gridlore@mindspring.com, and again as gridlore@pop.mindspring.com<BR><BR>Majordomo is refusing to let me close either account.&nbsp; I need the "pop"<BR>acciubt killed.&nbsp; Is Rob still around?&nbsp; Or can anybody give me some help on<BR>killed this monster?<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:12:35 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Imperium blood chits?<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; See http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/faq/policy_10.htm for the official DOD<BR>&gt; policy on their use now.<BR><BR>It never finishes loading. :-(<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 20:24:02 -0600<BR>From: Mark A Nordstrand &lt;markn@visi.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3753<BR><BR>I've waited well over 24 hours before delurking and adding my<BR>opinion.....<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; like you form the basis of an argument then I take<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; it you fall into the latter catagory.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;What was that about pots calling kettles black ?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I suggest that you wait until you've produced a program that does half of<BR>&gt; what H&amp;E can achieve before you express similar opinions.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Ok.&nbsp; http://www.visi.com/~markn&nbsp; (many others which have absolutely <BR>nothing to do with what this mailing list is about, but this should do)<BR><BR>Pot.&nbsp; Kettle.&nbsp; Black.<BR><BR>I happen to be one of those professionals you've been making disparaging<BR>remarks about.&nbsp; Oddly enough, I find you're comment above to be exactly<BR>what you've been complaining about from "us."&nbsp; Really makes me wonder<BR>about what advise you've been listening to.&nbsp; Certainly doesn't make me<BR>care to offer any......<BR><BR>I've been identified as a jazz snob, as a C snob, even as a unix snob<BR>(but, take note, never as a beer snob -- people can drink the swill<BR>produced in the US if they want to).<BR><BR>PS.&nbsp; Today a coworker identified perl as a write-only language.&nbsp; I was<BR>amused, and considering other comments made lately, others may be as<BR>well.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Mark<BR><BR>"So you want to be a rock and roll star..."<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:05:25 -0800<BR>From: Russell Bornschlegel &lt;kaleja@estarcion.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Stuart Ferris wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Any system generated using the same random number seed will always produce<BR>&gt; &gt; the same results. There isn't a need to develop database structures.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; That is, alas, one of the Windows-only things preventing H&amp;E from being ported to other platforms. A random number seed will only prduce the same series of numbers using the same random number sequence generator. Even Non-MS compilers on Windows machines will produce different random numbers.<BR><BR>It's easy enough to code your own random number generator, which <BR>can thereby be made portable (part of the app instead of part of <BR>the libraries); I can provide info on this. Of course, that's one <BR>of the least difficulties I can see in porting H&amp;E. <BR><BR>- -Russell B<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:54:00 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>If you want a database heavy project, why not go the whole hog and use<BR>mySQL for the back end and scripted web pages or Java for the<BR>processing? I thought he was just after a few ideas he could tinker<BR>with, and VB is fine for that (though if its a "quality" product<BR>that's aimed at, I agree with you).<BR><BR>BTW, if you _do_ want to go the whole hog, you can download mySQL,<BR>Java, PHP and some other odds and ends from my web page. Help<BR>yourself.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>Email&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk<BR>Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson<BR>&gt; Sent: 28 February 2001 18:25<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only<BR>&gt; features (as, alas,<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software<BR>&gt; is relatively<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; straightforward using RealBASIC.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I have also recently started a VB Traveller&nbsp; project&nbsp; (maybe&nbsp; its<BR>&gt; &gt; just that time of the year) and I may want to port it to&nbsp; obscure<BR>&gt; &gt; O/Ss like Mac ...&nbsp; what&nbsp; "Windowze-Only"&nbsp; features&nbsp; give&nbsp; porting<BR>&gt; &gt; problems?&nbsp; I'd like to&nbsp; avoid&nbsp; them&nbsp; if&nbsp; possible.&nbsp; (Also,&nbsp; I&nbsp; am<BR>&gt; &gt; storing data in an Access database [1]&nbsp; and&nbsp; using&nbsp; SQL&nbsp; commands<BR>&gt; &gt; where possible.&nbsp; Is their a Mac equivalent?)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Not with MS apps, there isn't.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; As someone else mentioned FileMaker Pro (available from,<BR>&gt; amazingly enough, Filemaker.com ) will work.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Realbasic Pro comes with a SQL database component. Strictly<BR>&gt; sticking to SQL instead of Accmess should work.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I feel about Access what Frankie feels about VB, so I'll<BR>&gt; shut up now.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; (All I can say is that a programmer that stored the data<BR>&gt; and the code together in one %$@#! file should be drug out,<BR>&gt; shot, revived, tenderly nursed back to health, and shot again.)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Bruce Johnson<BR>&gt; University of Arizona<BR>&gt; College of Pharmacy<BR>&gt; Information Technology Group<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:57:18 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>I did several small DTDs (now Schemas) for that sort of thing a while<BR>back. Happy to make them available and extend them if we can agree on<BR>the data descriptions - but remember that developers might have<BR>different needs and it can take a while to provide everything that's<BR>needed.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>Email&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk<BR>Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Rob Myers<BR>&gt; Sent: 01 March 2001 14:08<BR>&gt; To: Rob Myers<BR>&gt; Cc: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hey, great minds think alike. :-)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Here's a DTD for a simple-minded Traveller Markup Language.<BR>&gt; The world section is incomplete as I don't have the LBB's<BR>&gt; to hand. Possibly a common world representation usable by<BR>&gt; Traveller and GURPS could be found. The worlds, sectors and<BR>&gt; subsectors should be able to support arbitrary tags, so a<BR>&gt; doc could include tml.dtd, far-trader.dtd, etc and make<BR>&gt; sense of itself, but I don't know how to do that just now. :-)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?&gt;&lt;!DOCTYPE UNIVERSE<BR>&gt; [&lt;!ELEMENT UNIVERSE (NAME, MILEU?, MILEU?, SECTOR+)&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;!ELEMENT NAME (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;!ELEMENT MILEU (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;!ELEMENT DATE (#PCDATA)&gt;&lt;!ELEMENT SECTOR (LOCATION, SUBSECTOR+)&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;!ELEMENT LOCATION (#PCDATA)&gt;&lt;!ELEMENT SUBSECTOR (LOCATION, WORLD+)&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;!ELEMENT WORLD (NAME, UPP, GAS-GIANT+, ZONE+, FACT*)&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;!ELEMENT UPP (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;!ELEMENT GAS-GIANT (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;!ELEMENT ZONE (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;!ELEMENT FACT (NAME, INFORMATION)&gt;<BR>&gt; &lt;!ELEMENT INFORMATION (#PCDATA)&gt;]&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; If anyone is interested in this I can write something more<BR>&gt; complete up.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; - Rob.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/dylan<BR>&gt; "The idea behind Dylan-to offer a range of dynamism<BR>&gt; appropriate to each piece of an application-feels right,<BR>&gt; and after using Dylan you will become frustrated with C++<BR>&gt; and Java." - Software Development Magazine.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:10:20 -0800<BR>From: clifford n linehan &lt;cnl.rubicon@juno.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Famille Spofulam News Brief.<BR><BR>"System Traffic Control to All ships."<BR><BR>"Be advised that Famille Spofulam will begin testing of a new prototype<BR>starship. All manned ships will commence movement into orbits five and<BR>six. All manned ships must be within said orbits by 1200 hours Imperial<BR>Standard Time. All ships in the outer system beyond 200 diameters are to<BR>remain in excess of 200 diameters. All ships 100 to 200 diameters out are<BR>to proceed at maximum speed to beyond 200 diameters immediately. All<BR>ships within 100 diameters are to proceed at maximum speed to orbits five<BR>and six, where you are cleared for high-g orbit entry protocols."<BR><BR>"Be advised that all unmanned ships will be remotely piloted by System<BR>Traffic Control at 1.0g maneuver."<BR><BR>"Be advised that if you are not in the designated orbits, you risk the<BR>loss of your ship and your life."<BR><BR>"Please have a nice day and fly safely. System Traffic Control out at<BR>1101 hours Imperial Standard Time."<BR><BR><BR>Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com<BR>http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller<BR>Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.<BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:24:58 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 17:44, Douglas Berry wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; At 09:40 AM 03/01/01 -0600, you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;The epicenter was 25-30 miles below ground.<BR>&gt; &gt;If it was closer to the surface, you'd probably be right.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Minor correction.. "Epicenter" is the location on the surface directly<BR>&gt; above the quake point.&nbsp; But you are right, depth is a vital factor.<BR><BR>That'll teach me to use technical terms that I last actually used in high <BR>school geography.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:24:58 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 16:03, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Your average sector is about 450 worlds.&nbsp; Give it 1k per world and that's<BR>&gt; 10-20 megabytes for the entire imperium.&nbsp; That's what I call a 'tiny<BR>&gt; database'.&nbsp; I don't know what H&amp;E produces, but I doubt it's more than 1k<BR>&gt; per world.<BR><BR>A friend of mine is an Oracle man. I don't think he thinks in units that small. <BR>:)<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:38:51 -0500 <BR>From: "Greenly, Jeff" &lt;greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: OT Nonsense<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program<BR>&gt;&gt; like you form the basis of an argument then I take<BR>&gt;&gt; it you fall into the latter catagory.<BR><BR>&gt;What was that about pots calling kettles black ?<BR><BR>I suggest that you wait until you've produced a program that does half of<BR>what H&amp;E can achieve before you express similar opinions.<BR><BR>&lt;Ahem&gt; well... Chalk up a k/b kill for Mr. Ferris. I love a good comeback.<BR><BR>I figure that's all that needs to be said about that... Game, Set Match to<BR>the MAN, Stuart Ferris, who wrote the best Traveller utility EVER. One of my<BR>computers has been doing nothing but running H&amp;E.<BR><BR>Oh, and to the kind soul that suggested that I brew up an Imperial Scout<BR>Extract Ale... I'm working on it. I was thinking along the lines of a<BR>Steinbier or a Hefeweizen...<BR><BR>The gentleman who brought up Ommegang... You have taste, sir. That is a fine<BR>brew. Alas, because of the blue laws in my state, I cannot partake unless I<BR>drive to Maryland. &lt;sigh&gt;<BR><BR><BR>Jeff<BR>The Beerhead (actually we prefer "Zymurgist", but Beerhead will do)<BR><BR>OBTrav: Well, customs officials come to mind..."What do you mean it's only<BR>2% over our legal limits for alcohol content?!? You still can't bring it in<BR>here and corrupt our fine upstanding citizens! Just sign it over to me, and<BR>I'll see that it's disposed of properly..."<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:43:06 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: OT Nonsense<BR><BR>On 1 Mar 2001, at 23:38, Greenly, Jeff wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I suggest that you wait until you've produced a program that does half of what<BR>&gt; H&amp;E can achieve before you express similar opinions.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &lt;Ahem&gt; well... Chalk up a k/b kill for Mr. Ferris. I love a good comeback.<BR><BR>Uhmm, how about we just drop this. Stuart was talking to an experienced <BR>professional software engineer and his statement was actually kind of silly. <BR>Good though H&amp;E is, its really a tiddler in the world of software projects. I'd <BR>say at a guess that H&amp;E is probably around 100,000 LoC, which only just <BR>puts it at the lower limit of commercial software (HGS comes in at around <BR>25,000 LoC BTW).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:56:44 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:50:47 +1300<BR>&gt; From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; And nobody uses stright C. That's so sad.<BR><BR>Well we all know what traditionalists the Vilani are....<BR><BR>I put it to you that they have only just (c. 1113) begun<BR>implementing ansi standard c. Prior to this time they have<BR>used APL exclusively. :)<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:21:36 -0800<BR>From: Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Help!<BR><BR>on 3/1/01 6:10 PM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I admit technological ignorance.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Somehow, I have ended up subscribed to the list twice.&nbsp; once as<BR>&gt; gridlore@mindspring.com, and again as gridlore@pop.mindspring.com<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Majordomo is refusing to let me close either account.&nbsp; I need the "pop"<BR>&gt; acciubt killed.&nbsp; Is Rob still around?&nbsp; Or can anybody give me some help on<BR>&gt; killed this monster?<BR><BR>I can spoof you email on my mail server and kill one of your subscriptions.<BR>Which one do you want executed?<BR><BR>Tod<BR>- --<BR>"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.<BR>They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Daniel Webster<BR>- -- <BR>Tod L Glenn<BR>webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.spinwardmarches.com<BR>http://www.solsec.org<BR>http://www.grandsurvey.com<BR>http://travellerguns.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:26:24 -0800<BR>From: Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Help!<BR><BR>on 3/1/01 6:10 PM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I admit technological ignorance.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Somehow, I have ended up subscribed to the list twice.&nbsp; once as<BR>&gt; gridlore@mindspring.com, and again as gridlore@pop.mindspring.com<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Majordomo is refusing to let me close either account.&nbsp; I need the "pop"<BR>&gt; acciubt killed.&nbsp; Is Rob still around?&nbsp; Or can anybody give me some help on<BR>&gt; killed this monster?<BR><BR>I sent an unsubscribe traveller as gridlore@pop.mindspring.com for you.<BR><BR>Let me know if it works.<BR><BR>Tod<BR>- --<BR>"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.<BR>They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Daniel Webster<BR>- -- <BR>Tod L Glenn<BR>webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.spinwardmarches.com<BR>http://www.solsec.org<BR>http://www.grandsurvey.com<BR>http://travellerguns.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 06:46:34 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:<BR>&gt;From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;"Larsen E. Whipsnade writes: as holders [of] planetary titles with no <BR>&gt;corresponding Imperial patent."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "But if his title is a planetary title with no corresponding Imperial <BR>&gt;patent, why is his social class considered to correspond to an Imperial <BR>&gt;title?"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The Imperial nobility ensure that others treat him with deference, even <BR>&gt;if they do not, so that the deference due to them is not stinted or<BR>&gt;questioned. This doens't mean that his influence or advice would count for <BR>&gt;anything among the Imperial nobility, but they'll make very sure he isn't <BR>&gt;snubbed by the commons.&nbsp; Can't have the rabble getting any ideas.<BR><BR>That begs the question. WHY would the Imperial nobility care about the holder of<BR>a title with no corresponding Imperial patent? As far as they are concerned,<BR>what is the difference between a planetary baron and a planetary dogcatcher?<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "In Traveller terms, if the grandfather was SL X then Lord Randolph was <BR>&gt;SL X-2 and Churchill was SL X-4 (or something)."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sounds good to me.&nbsp; Let's see the Duke, Grampa John, would be SL E or <BR>&gt;F.&nbsp; Lord Randolph SL A (no title other then Lord) and Winston SL 9<BR><BR>Except that the Duke of Malborough (granpa) wouldn't be Social Class E under the<BR>current system. As a mere duke (and not even a royal duke), he'd at best qualify<BR>for an Imperial baronage (SL C). Depending on how generous the Imperium is with<BR>its titles he may have to be content with a knighthood (SL B).<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;But the Grand Duke of Fornol wouldn't have a social level equivalent to an<BR>&gt;&gt;Imperial duke but only to an Imperial marquis.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I entirely agree with that and wasn't suggesting that he would.&nbsp; He'd <BR>&gt;have an Imperial patent whose level would be based on how his world was <BR>&gt;brought into the Imperium and how his family has served the Imperium since <BR>&gt;then.<BR><BR>IMO there would be thousands or even tens of thousands of planetary nobles on<BR>each well-established world with a population in the high medium (7 to 8) or<BR>high (9 and 10). Only a few of those would qualify for Imperial noble titles.<BR>It's not the handful from each planet that do qualify for an Imperial title that<BR>concerns me here. It's all the others. <BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "But such a baron wouldn't be SL 12. He'd be whatever SL the barons of <BR>&gt;his planet were."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I'm suggesting a "courtesy" SL for such individuals.&nbsp; He'd still be <BR>&gt;treated as a noble, but without all the precedence due a "real" Imperial <BR>&gt;baron.<BR><BR>And I believe such a system isn't practical. Nor do I understand why an Imperial<BR>baron would consider planetary barons to be peers just because they happen to<BR>have alike-sounding titles.<BR><BR>&gt;His social level off world would be equal to whatever the Imperial <BR>&gt;nobility decided it was...<BR><BR>Sure, but again, why would real Imperial nobles WANT to share their thunder with<BR>tens of thousands of planetary nobles? I maintain that they wouldn't. ("My Lord<BR>Marquis, there's an "Archduke of Beaupays" to see you" "What is he when he is at<BR>home?" "I believe the individual is the Minister of Trade for Junidy, My Lord."<BR>"Have him make an appointment with my secretary.")<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "In between squires and planetary rulers you have minor nobles<BR>&gt;(~barons), rulers of counties (~counts), rulers of regions <BR>&gt;~marquesses/dukes), rulers of provinces (~dukes/princes), heads of state <BR>&gt;(~princes/kings), and rulers of continents (~emperors). And all these ranks <BR>&gt;are squeezed into just two ranks, SL 11 and 12."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sounds okay to me. Why not have all those minor nobles seem as one big <BR>&gt;"clump" from the Imperial viewpoint?<BR><BR>Because then you are looking at it from the POW of a class of people who<BR>constitutes a billionth of the population of the Imperium. Regardless of how<BR>many levels there may be above a ruler of a world, minor nobles still defer to<BR>rulers of counties, counts still defer to rulers of regions, dukes still defer<BR>to rulers of provinces, princes still defer to heads of state, kings still<BR>defer to rulers of continents, and emperors still defer to world rulers. And<BR>don't forget that this is the same status system that allocate NINE different<BR>levels to the lower and middle classes. Now, why would an Imperial noble lump<BR>everyone from baron to emperor into two classes yet distinguish between the<BR>lower lower class, the low middle lower class, the upper middle lower class, the<BR>upper lower class, the lower middle class, the low middle middle class, the mid<BR>middle middle class, the upper middle middle class, and the upper middle class?<BR><BR>&gt;The Imperials work backward from the Emperor, down to the Marquis of each <BR>&gt;planet.&nbsp; Anything below the level of Marquis is not worth worrying too much <BR>&gt;about from the Imperial viewpoint.<BR><BR>Now explain SL 1 to 9.<BR><BR>Anyway, the Imperium DO deal with these people. There's an overlap. The Duchess<BR>of Mora is also the planetary leader of Mora. Which means that not only does she<BR>deal with the Imperial nobility of Mora subsector, she also deals with two or<BR>three levels of planetary nobility below her. And those two or three levels<BR>below her deals with those further down the food chain.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 06:52:17 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Wealth (Was: Nobles and the Imperium)<BR><BR>Peter Newman writes:<BR>&gt;Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;As the only way of transferring wealth from one system&nbsp; to another is to<BR>&gt;&gt;transport goods from one to the other, the Imperium would mostly get its<BR>&gt;cut in goods and services. Starships, supplies, annual maintenances, etc.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The worlds of the Imperium could easily transfer wealth from <BR>&gt;themselves to the Imperium by simply paying in Imperial credits.<BR><BR>Money isn't wealth. It's a promisory note. Until you can convert the money into<BR>something you can burn, fondle, or eat it's just so much scrap paper/electronic<BR>noise.<BR><BR>&gt;Every Imperial credit out there is a debt that the Imperium owes the holder of<BR>&gt;that credit. If worlds turn these credits in then the indebtedness of the <BR>&gt;Imperium is released.<BR><BR>But the only way to cash in that debt is for the Imperium to deliver something<BR>valuable to the holder of that credit (Or, as will more often be the case, the<BR>only way for the Imperium to get any use out of the tax credits it has recieved<BR>from a world is to buy stuff (or services) from that world.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 07:33:17 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the imperium<BR><BR>Christopher Thrash writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;What is clear is that social level A-F were planetary titles. The Duke of<BR>&gt;&gt;Alpha Continent, not the Duke of Regina.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;...in a setting where the highest level of interstellar state is "an empire<BR>&gt;of several worlds," not 11,000.<BR><BR>Which is why it should have been changed when the scale changed.<BR><BR>&gt;The creation of the Official Traveller Universe changed several assumptions<BR>&gt;underlying the rules: the social structure was stretched to accommodate the<BR>&gt;vastly increased scope of the setting. There is nothing inherently<BR>&gt;contradictory about this.<BR><BR>There is when relatively powerful military positions that gave merely planetary <BR>titles is suddenly much less powerful, yet wind up giving Imperial titles.<BR><BR>&gt;The social levels B-F were changed from planetary nobility in a setting of<BR>&gt;pocket empires, to interstellar nobility in an empire spanning thousands of<BR>&gt;worlds. <BR><BR>And that's just what I've been complaining about. You don't suddenly not have<BR>planetary barons, counts, dukes, princes, kings, and emperors just because you<BR>have an interstellar nobility added on top of that. Yet by changing SL B-F from<BR>planetary to interstellar titles, you effectively remove them from the social<BR>ladder. And that is not, IMO, right.<BR><BR>&gt;Arguably, they became relatively *less* powerful, not more so.<BR><BR>Relatively it should be about the same. But in absolute terms the difference is<BR>HUGE.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;"At the discretion of the referee, a noble may have some ancestral lands or<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;fiefs, and may actually have some ruling power." <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;Book 1, p. 9 (1981)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;This is the key point: the amount of real power (as opposed to presumed<BR>&gt;social precedence) associated with player character noble titles is set at<BR>&gt;the sole discretion of the referee.<BR><BR>To quote MM again: "It also has to make sense". There is a strong correlation<BR>between power and social position. Not a complete correspondence, of course, but<BR>a very strong correlation.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;The kicker, and the clue that you are dealing with no ordinary<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;noble, is the suffix or fief used in the style of address.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Yes, but Traveller does not _treat_ them as extraordinary nobles. The CGS<BR>&gt;&gt;hands out noble titles to every Tom, Dick, and Horatio in the navy with a<BR>&gt;&gt;little dice luck and to several other careers too. Imperial nobles bum<BR>&gt;&gt;around the universe with not a care in the world and often no money either. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;Those are titles of achievement, which (once again, *explicitly*)<BR>&gt;"customarily carry no special reward beyond the noble title itself." (Supp.<BR>&gt;11, p. 35) <BR><BR>And the social level. This is the single most common exception to the strong<BR>correlation between power and social position. In order not to cheapen their own<BR>title, powerful titleholders are apt to insist that those who share their title<BR>is treated (almost) as well as they themselves. And it's precisely the fact that<BR>they do get the same social level as landed peers that is the problem. Because<BR>while the 300 "real" dukes in the Imperium wouldn't mind a few dozen achievement<BR>dukes (much), I'm perfectly sure they wouldn't like having a few thousand<BR>achievement dukes running around.<BR><BR>Not to mention that MT explicitly stated that counties and dukedoms weren't<BR>handed out as achievement titles. I know you don't like to regard MT as kosher,<BR>but I do not want to throw out the babies with the bathwater. AFAIAC MT is just<BR>as much canon as CT.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt;Canon does make distinctions among nobles, based on real power: <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;"The Baronet obviously has much power and influence, and should be treated<BR>&gt;with great care and caution." (Adv. 11, p. 48) Baronet Rosa Demetriou's<BR>&gt;connections and antecedents were described in detail on preceeding pages<BR>&gt;(ibid., pp. 45-48).<BR><BR>Which one is Adv. 11? I think it must be one of the ones I don't have.<BR><BR>&gt;Similarly, Marc hault-Oberlindes, Baron Feri, and Marquis Leonard<BR>&gt;Bolden-Tukera of Aramis (TTA, p. 22) have their power bases<BR>&gt;clearly identified, and are presented as forces to be respected. <BR><BR>No argument there. The point is that nobles with merely county-sized fiefs are<BR>quite powerful too, yet you never hear about them because there is no room for<BR>them in the social ladder.<BR><BR>&gt;Contrast this with Professor Sir Gnetus Jerrold Vicervis (Adv. 2, p. 37)<BR>&gt;about whom no such caution is offered. His title is presumably for either<BR>&gt;achievement in science, or his position as research station director; in<BR>&gt;any case, it carries no other real power.<BR><BR>His title is also a mere knighthood. I don't see the relevance.<BR><BR>&gt;Sergei hault-Oberlindes, Marc's son, winds up in jail for assaulting a cop<BR>&gt;(JTAS #1, p. 13) and eventually commands the flagship of the Oberlindes Line<BR>&gt;(AHL rules booklet, pp. 41-43), but is apparently accorded no special<BR>&gt;deference.<BR><BR>As the son of an Imperial baron he wouldn't have a title of his own until Marc<BR>died (A baron wouldn't have a secondary title for the eldest son to "loan"), so<BR>I don't see anything strange about that. All it shows is that even Imperials are<BR>subject to local laws.<BR><BR>&gt;Finally, I draw your attention to Charles de Batz-Castelmore, Monsieur<BR>&gt;d'Artagnan, whose literary namesake left to make his fortune in Paris with<BR>&gt;just a broken-down horse, his father's sword, and a letter of introduction.<BR><BR>AFAIK Chevalier de Bath was only a knight. As such he is even lower than a<BR>planetary baron. He'd fall in SL A. His father was propably a squire. In any<BR>case France at the time was hardly an interstellar state.<BR><BR>&gt;There have certainly been periods of history (or heroic fiction, at any<BR>&gt;rate) where noble titles did not automatically confer either great wealth<BR>&gt;or great power.<BR><BR>But my thesis is that a close relative of an Imperial baron would be more akin<BR>to a relative of the Zar of all the Russias than the son of a French country<BR>squire.<BR><BR>&gt;I think it just as likely that Travellers -- the tiny fraction of the total<BR>&gt;Imperium involved in interstellar affairs, on any level -- look down on all<BR>&gt;purely local, world-bound citizens as "wogs". Player character social<BR>&gt;status would therefore represent _Imperial_ status, with on-world status<BR>&gt;ignored as essentially irrelevant, much the way imperialists of the<BR>&gt;18th-19th century condescended to local potentates: an outward show of<BR>&gt;respect, with little substance. Important local figures would have a place<BR>&gt;in the Imperial hierarchy (titles for service), however, which would have<BR>&gt;to be respected. <BR><BR>All this would be a lot more plausible if the same system that you say would<BR>cavalierly dismiss planetary nobles as uninteresting didn't contain 9 different<BR>levels for the commoners. Besides, you're wrong. There would be an overlap<BR>between the planetary nobility and the Imperial. The top layer of the planetary<BR>nobility would be the bottom layer of the Imperial. As such, they would deal<BR>with both and they wouldn't lump everybody among the planetary nobles together<BR>the way you suggest.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3758<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3759</B></TD></TR>
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<TD vAlign=top width="10%">Date: </TD>
<TD>3/2/01 9:21:59 AM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, March 2 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3759<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>[none]<BR>RE: <BR>RE: Traveller software project<BR>Re: Sayat<BR>RE: Sayat<BR>RE: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>re: Looking For...<BR>Re: Famile Spofulam News Brief<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Wealth (Was: Nobles and the Imperium)<BR>RE: [TML] Looking For...<BR>RE: Traveller software project<BR>Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3753<BR>RE: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Help!<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 02:01:34 -0500 <BR>From: "Greenly, Jeff" &lt;greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: [none]<BR><BR>unsubscribe greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:20:54 -0000 <BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: <BR><BR>address it to: majordomo@lists.ient.com<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Greenly, Jeff [mailto:greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu]<BR>&gt; Sent: 02 March 2001 07:02<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; unsubscribe greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:36:23 -0000 <BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; On the topic of XML it is all very well to discuss the <BR>&gt; subject on the list,<BR>&gt; &gt; but does everyone interested truly have the resolve to see <BR>&gt; the thing through<BR>&gt; &gt; to fruition? To be honest I doubt it. I think you'll be <BR>&gt; hard pushed to agree<BR>&gt; &gt; a format and the idea will be forgotten.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; It depends entirely on whether there are XML-capable folks on <BR>&gt; the list. XML is new, the tools are limited and not a lot of <BR>&gt; people know how to use it.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On the other hand it's an order or two of magnitude more <BR>&gt; powerful than <BR>&gt; HTML is. It took quite a while for html to catch on, too.<BR><BR>Grappling to learn XML at the moment. So, although I use it, I ain't much<BR>good to you...yet.<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:13:42 +0200<BR>From: Antti Lahtinen &lt;lahtinen@ee.tut.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sayat<BR><BR>&gt; The Imperial Ministry of Commerce has not yet handed down a ruling on<BR>&gt; whether the PMPP is to be regulated as a "concealable weapon", however.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Hmm. Another perspective to the PMPP. Checking the volumes of<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; the plasma weapon components and assuming that the weapon is<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; cylindrical in shape, its diameter is about 9 cm. That might be<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; hard to conceal.<BR>- --<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Antti Lahtinen&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; lahtinen@ee.tut.fi<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Researcher, MSc (Eng)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:15:01 -0000 <BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Sayat<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; The Imperial Ministry of Commerce has not yet handed down <BR>&gt; a ruling on<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; whether the PMPP is to be regulated as a "concealable <BR>&gt; weapon", however.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hmm. Another perspective to the PMPP. Checking the volumes of<BR>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; the plasma weapon components and assuming that the weapon is<BR>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; cylindrical in shape, its diameter is about 9 cm. That might be<BR>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; hard to conceal.<BR>&gt; --<BR><BR>You'd be amazed what a skilled tailor can accomplish. :)<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:35:31 -0000 <BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Chocolate?&nbsp; That'll get me to drinking at the very least THIS <BR>&gt; brew!&nbsp; Is <BR>&gt; this a common ingredient in making beer?<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>Not lager, but yes.<BR><BR>&gt; As someone mentioned later (I'm not sure who) I think this <BR>&gt; qualifies you as <BR>&gt; the official TML beerhead. =)&nbsp; This really was a fascinating read.<BR><BR>I'm flatter that I'm so memorable :|<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; So... what would be in Scout Brew?&nbsp; Besides stuff that has to be set <BR>&gt; outside the jumpspace bubble for the better part of a week...?<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>OUTSIDE the jump bubble? How would you get it back...pull on the rope? :)<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:41:39 -0000 <BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>&gt; But the confusion is half the fun. :-)<BR>&gt; Howabout an Imperial-sounding name? You just know the <BR>&gt; Solomani infected<BR>&gt; Capital with XML-itis before the long night. There are COBOL <BR>&gt; routines in<BR>&gt; the IISS accounts mainfraime from back when Sylea bought a job lot of<BR>&gt; IBM systems cheap...<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>At least the Millenium bug isn't going to be a problem for about 8/9 hundred<BR>years<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 04:53:01 -0500<BR>From: Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Looking For...<BR><BR>On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:07:30 -0500 (EST), Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;From: Cliff Linehan &lt;clinehan@sfamipec.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what<BR>&gt;&gt;can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?<BR><BR>&gt;Check the Darrians Alien Module.&nbsp; I think they have a<BR>&gt;plasma-in-a-magnetic-field sculpture thing that can be made into a weapon.<BR>&gt; There was a big discussion about this some time ago on the TML; check the<BR>&gt;archives.<BR><BR>Not the Alien Module; it was an article written up and posted on Freelance<BR>Traveller - I forgot exactly what section it appeared in, but look for<BR>something on the Order of Zar-tis.&nbsp; It's probably under "Kurishdam".<BR><BR>Given the at-last-report-partially-not-quite-intact state of Downport, the<BR>primary Freelance Traveller site, let me point you to the mirror, at<BR>http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz/.<BR>- --<BR>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:12:54 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam News Brief<BR><BR>&gt;From: clifford n linehan &lt;cnl.rubicon@juno.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Famille Spofulam News Brief.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR><BR>&lt;good stuff snipped&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;"Be advised that if you are not in the designated orbits, you risk the<BR>&gt;loss of your ship and your life."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;"Please have a nice day and fly safely. System Traffic Control out at<BR>&gt;1101 hours Imperial Standard Time."<BR><BR>***applause***<BR><BR>Now, Ms Spofulam would like to see the imagery (and data uploads) from the test flight ... what *have* <BR>the labs been coming up with lately ? <BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR>PA to Exec VP Ditzie Spofulam<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:47:49 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>No, they're more Pascal guys. :-)<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 08:57 PM, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Surely Vilani would have to use COBOL?&nbsp; <BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/<BR>"Art is not a copy of the real world.<BR>One of the damn things is enough."<BR>- Unknown.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 02:08:30 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth (Was: Nobles and the Imperium)<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; Peter Newman writes:<BR>&gt; &gt;Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;As the only way of transferring wealth from one system&nbsp; to another is to<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;transport goods from one to the other, the Imperium would mostly get its<BR>&gt; &gt;cut in goods and services. Starships, supplies, annual maintenances, etc.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;The worlds of the Imperium could easily transfer wealth from <BR>&gt; &gt;themselves to the Imperium by simply paying in Imperial credits.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Money isn't wealth. It's a promisory note. Until you can convert the money into<BR>&gt; something you can burn, fondle, or eat it's just so much scrap paper/electronic<BR>&gt; noise.<BR><BR>If people will accept your money for their credits you get<BR>what you want. If people wont accept your Imperial Credits<BR>within the Imperium then they're traitors.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Every Imperial credit out there is a debt that the Imperium owes the holder of<BR>&gt; &gt;that credit. If worlds turn these credits in then the indebtedness of the <BR>&gt; &gt;Imperium is released.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; But the only way to cash in that debt is for the Imperium to deliver something<BR>&gt; valuable to the holder of that credit (Or, as will more often be the case, the<BR>&gt; only way for the Imperium to get any use out of the tax credits it has recieved<BR>&gt; from a world is to buy stuff (or services) from that world.)<BR><BR>The valuable good the Imperium delivers to it's member worlds<BR>is "Pay your taxes and don't get invaded by us." Governments are<BR>nothing more than protection rackets. If the alternative is being<BR>invaded then the member worlds have a pretty good chance of getting<BR>those Imperial credits out of their subjects pockets .<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:39:12 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: [TML] Looking For...<BR><BR>Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;Personally, my oarticular favorite was "Chainsaw combat in <BR>&gt; &gt;Traveller"&nbsp; which included rules for a fusion chainsaw.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; "Groovy."<BR><BR>LOL! ... "Shop smart, shop S-Mart."<BR><BR>Regrads PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:57:03 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer<BR>&gt; &gt; sense (hey, this links the beer thread to the programming<BR>&gt; &gt; thread) or as in free speech sense ?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; InterBase. Free and Open Source.<BR><BR>Thanks.&nbsp; I had originally wanted a free SQL-compliant RDBMS (ODBC<BR>for Windows) but had missed this one.&nbsp; From the blurb on the&nbsp; web<BR>it sounds ideal (support for BLOBs, too, so&nbsp; planetary&nbsp; maps&nbsp; and<BR>other graphics can be stored).&nbsp; I've downloaded it and will&nbsp; play<BR>with it this weekend.&nbsp; Ideally, a common Traveller database could<BR>be distributed as SQL scripts and loaded into&nbsp; the&nbsp; SQL-compliant<BR>RDBMS of your&nbsp; choice.&nbsp; I&nbsp; notice&nbsp; that&nbsp; InterBase&nbsp; has&nbsp; a&nbsp; Linux<BR>version (which would make porting "Traveller Universe"&nbsp; compliant<BR>software easier) ... not sure what to do about the Mac brigade.<BR><BR>As for the XML data storage idea ...&nbsp; its&nbsp; outside&nbsp; my&nbsp; range&nbsp; of<BR>current knowledge at present and I am concerned about performance<BR>issues.&nbsp; However, using XML as a common means of data transfer to<BR>non TU-compliant software sounds fine.&nbsp; Perhaps once the database<BR>table design becomes reasonably stable one&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; XML&nbsp; experts<BR>here can start converting it into XML and I can build an&nbsp; "export<BR>in XML" function for the data.<BR><BR>Anyway, I'll report back next week on InterBase.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:09:18 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>&gt; Eeeeewww! They send Corona your way, too??<BR>&gt; Yuck! Piss in a bottle! _Bum_piss in a bottle!<BR>&gt; I'll drink Budweiser before I'll drink Corona.<BR>&gt; I'll drink _OLY_ before I'll drink Corona!<BR>Oh, you Armerican types, never cease to amuse me. What you call beer<BR>is like making love in a kanoo (?Spelling?) to us german types.<BR>Now us, we do have _beers_...<BR>...and even then, theres worlds of difference.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:11:31 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3753<BR><BR>Am Thursday, March 01, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR><BR>&gt; Frank wrote:-<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; like you form the basis of an argument then I take<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; it you fall into the latter catagory.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;What was that about pots calling kettles black ?<BR><BR>&gt; I suggest that you wait until you've produced a program that does half of<BR>&gt; what H&amp;E can achieve before you express similar opinions.<BR>BTW, remarkable piece of equipment, H&amp;E is. Still never ceases to<BR>amaze me when i play around with it. (Still no time to use it for<BR>real, though...) (sigh!)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:12:50 -0000 <BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Eeeeewww! They send Corona your way, too??<BR>&gt; &gt; Yuck! Piss in a bottle! _Bum_piss in a bottle!<BR>&gt; &gt; I'll drink Budweiser before I'll drink Corona.<BR>&gt; &gt; I'll drink _OLY_ before I'll drink Corona!<BR>&gt; Oh, you Armerican types, never cease to amuse me. What you call beer<BR>&gt; is like making love in a kanoo (?Spelling?) to us german types.<BR>&gt; Now us, we do have _beers_...<BR>&gt; ...and even then, theres worlds of difference.<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>Canoe.<BR>If anyone didn't get the joke about 'making love in a canoe', mail me<BR>off-list for explanation. Can't see I'll be getting many.<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:27:19 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 09:09 PM, Volker wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Oh, you Armerican types, never cease to amuse me. What you call beer <BR>&gt; is like making love in a kanoo (?Spelling?) to us german types. <BR><BR>I've never made love to a German type in a canoe so the comparison is lost on me. Unless you mean making love in a kangaroo, which is another matter entirely. We'll have to wait for Oz to wake up before we can resolve the physical possibility of that.<BR><BR>&gt; Now us, we do have _beers_... <BR>&gt; ...and even then, theres worlds of difference. <BR><BR>One day I'd like to take out some life insurance and go to a German beer festival. They look great.<BR><BR>ObTrav: Premium alcohol, where not prohibited by law/the gods/fashion, is in high demand on some worlds. Getting permission to export it, getting past local purity laws and then making sure the patron survives drinking it is no mean feat. Especially if the brain-worm at the bottom of the bottle isn't really pickled...<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/<BR>"Smash Global Capitalism! Spend less money!"<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 06:59:59 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Help!<BR><BR>At 09:21 PM 03/01/01 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I can spoof you email on my mail server and kill one of your subscriptions.<BR>&gt;Which one do you want executed?<BR><BR>The pop.mindspring.com one.<BR><BR>TIA!<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 09:42:07 -0600<BR>From: William Barnett-Lewis &lt;wlewis@mailbag.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Check out PostgreSQL&nbsp; at www.postgresql.org It's the most robust and<BR>portable free SQL I've used.<BR><BR>William<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 08:18:33 +1100<BR>&gt; From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>&gt; I am strongly against using Access for this. I'd be much happier with<BR>&gt; something like one of the variants<BR>&gt; of SQL <BR><BR>&gt;Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer sense (hey, this<BR>&gt; links the beer thread to the<BR>&gt; programming thread) or as in free speech sense ?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ian Whitchurch<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; ------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:29:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Rob Myers wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 09:09 PM, Volker wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Oh, you Armerican types, never cease to amuse me. What you call beer <BR>&gt; &gt; is like making love in a kanoo (?Spelling?) to us german types. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I've never made love to a German type in a canoe so the comparison is<BR>&gt; lost on me. Unless you mean making love in a kangaroo, which is<BR>&gt; another matter entirely. We'll have to wait for Oz to wake up before<BR>&gt; we can resolve the physical possibility of that.<BR><BR>American beer=making love in a canoe=fucking close to water<BR><BR>lol,<BR>Kiri<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:36:55 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Well, that'll teach me to be subtle. Of course, I already know how to be subtle, so maybe a more direct approach is in order. :-)<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>On Friday, March 2, 2001, at 04:29 PM, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Rob Myers wrote: <BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; I've never made love to a German type in a canoe so the comparison is <BR>&gt; &gt; lost on me.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; American beer=...<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/<BR>"Art is not a copy of the real world.<BR>One of the damn things is enough."<BR>- Unknown.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:52:04 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>&gt; American beer=making love in a canoe=fucking close to water<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>I'd like to point out for the record that not all American beer is Oly,<BR>Budweiser, Miller, etc.<BR><BR>For example, here in Oregon we have a vast variety of microBreweries (more<BR>breweries than Germany according to 'Beer Hunter' Michael Jackson-the other<BR>one).&nbsp; Those who have visited a McMeninmins pub will be the first to tell<BR>you that a Hammerhead stout is no canoe boink.&nbsp; And the Willamette valley is<BR>justly fames for it's Willamette hops, which are exported to many European<BR>countries.<BR><BR>Much like it is in foreign countries, the best stuff doesn't get exported,<BR>or even leave the state.<BR><BR>Jesse, Glenn, Doug.&nbsp; Next Fun Shoot Mark and I will have to arrange a trip<BR>to one of our fine brewpubs, although I know you have you share in SF.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:08:35 -0600<BR>From: "Thomas Vickers" &lt;tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>traveller@lists.ient.com writes:<BR>&gt;I'd like to point out for the record that not all American beer is Oly,<BR>&gt;Budweiser, Miller, etc.<BR><BR>Here in Texas we have Shiner Bock, which is a great beer. Its a privately owned<BR>brewery in the German/Czech region of Texas. <BR>Pretty much the only thing I drink. <BR>Not only do they produce their name sake bock, but they also brew a good wheat<BR>beer and several other brews.<BR>To judge&nbsp; or characterize American beer by drinking Budwieser is like me<BR>spewing St. Pauli Girl out of my nose and condeming all German brews :)<BR><BR>TV<BR>_______________________________________<BR>We're not just going th shoot the bastards. We are going to cut out their<BR>living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. WE are going to<BR>murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; George C. Scott (Patton)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:51:53 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Am Friday, March 02, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Eeeeewww! They send Corona your way, too??<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Yuck! Piss in a bottle! _Bum_piss in a bottle!<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; I'll drink Budweiser before I'll drink Corona.<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; I'll drink _OLY_ before I'll drink Corona!<BR>&gt;&gt; Oh, you Armerican types, never cease to amuse me. What you call beer<BR>&gt;&gt; is like making love in a kanoo (?Spelling?) to us german types.<BR>&gt;&gt; Now us, we do have _beers_...<BR>&gt;&gt; ...and even then, theres worlds of difference.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt; Canoe.<BR>Thanks!<BR>&gt; If anyone didn't get the joke about 'making love in a canoe', mail me<BR>&gt; off-list for explanation. Can't see I'll be getting many.<BR>;-)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:11:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Rob Myers wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Well, that'll teach me to be subtle. Of course, I already know how to<BR>&gt; be subtle, so maybe a more direct approach is in order. :-)<BR>&gt; <BR>Hey, on an international list like this one, if someone tells me they<BR>don't get a joke, I tend to believe them.<BR><BR>(I have a fair number of friends who don't speak English well who are<BR>always asking me to explain things.&nbsp; I've had to explain to Yutaka why<BR>some black people address each other with a term beginning with "n" but he<BR>can't, to Junko that a blowjob is not what you do to your hair after a<BR>shower, etc...)<BR><BR>Kiri&nbsp; ^_^<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:14:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On 1 Mar 2001, at 16:03, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Your average sector is about 450 worlds.&nbsp; Give it 1k per world and that's<BR>&gt; &gt; 10-20 megabytes for the entire imperium.&nbsp; That's what I call a 'tiny<BR>&gt; &gt; database'.&nbsp; I don't know what H&amp;E produces, but I doubt it's more than 1k<BR>&gt; &gt; per world.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A friend of mine is an Oracle man. I don't think he thinks in units that<BR>&gt; small.&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>Heh.&nbsp; Certainly not my experience with Oracle.&nbsp; Anything under a gig is a tiny<BR>database (1-10 gigs is merely small).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:16:30 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>&lt;Homer Simpson&gt;<BR>Mmmmm, machineguns....OOOO, beer!!!!<BR>&lt;/Homer Simpson&gt;<BR><BR>:)<BR><BR>I'll take ya' up on that.<BR>Jesse<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 8:52 AM<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; American beer=making love in a canoe=fucking close to water<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I'd like to point out for the record that not all American beer is Oly,<BR>&gt; Budweiser, Miller, etc.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; For example, here in Oregon we have a vast variety of microBreweries (more<BR>&gt; breweries than Germany according to 'Beer Hunter' Michael<BR>&gt; Jackson-the other<BR>&gt; one).&nbsp; Those who have visited a McMeninmins pub will be the first to tell<BR>&gt; you that a Hammerhead stout is no canoe boink.&nbsp; And the<BR>&gt; Willamette valley is<BR>&gt; justly fames for it's Willamette hops, which are exported to many European<BR>&gt; countries.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Much like it is in foreign countries, the best stuff doesn't get exported,<BR>&gt; or even leave the state.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Jesse, Glenn, Doug.&nbsp; Next Fun Shoot Mark and I will have to arrange a trip<BR>&gt; to one of our fine brewpubs, although I know you have you share in SF.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Tod<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:19:09 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>Am Friday, March 02, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR><BR>&gt; traveller@lists.ient.com writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;I'd like to point out for the record that not all American beer is Oly,<BR>&gt;&gt;Budweiser, Miller, etc.<BR><BR>&gt; Here in Texas we have Shiner Bock, which is a great beer. Its a privately owned<BR>&gt; brewery in the German/Czech region of Texas. <BR>&gt; Pretty much the only thing I drink. <BR>&gt; Not only do they produce their name sake bock, but they also brew a good wheat<BR>&gt; beer and several other brews.<BR>&gt; To judge&nbsp; or characterize American beer by drinking Budwieser is like me<BR>&gt; spewing St. Pauli Girl out of my nose and condeming all German brews :)<BR>Like I said, we have bad beer as well, but at least it has taste.<BR>And in discerning a countries taste in beer usually one usually tends<BR>to judge it by the biggest brands...<BR><BR>Not to say I dnt like US beers, I do drink them when I am there, but<BR>its just so damn hard to feel any effect other than the usual urine<BR>rush ;-)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:15:46 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>Am Friday, March 02, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; American beer=making love in a canoe=fucking close to water<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; I'd like to point out for the record that not all American beer is Oly,<BR>&gt; Budweiser, Miller, etc.<BR><BR>I once saw imported german beer in a US liquor store. Not with the<BR>rest of the beers, but with the hard liquor... ;-)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3759<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD>3/2/01 11:26:01 AM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, March 2 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3760<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>RE: Traveller software project<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))<BR>Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>RE: Traveller software project<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>Looking for an Artist....<BR>RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR>Re: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC<BR>RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR>Re: [TML] Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR>Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))<BR>RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:22:41 -0500 (EST)<BR>From: "Richard J. Pugh" &lt;rjpugh@patriot.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))<BR><BR>Some time back, I had some friends visiting from a few states away, and<BR>they were bowled over that I paid three times the price of Miller or Bud<BR>for an ale that comes from a micro-brewery in Baltimore (I live in<BR>Maryland, near DC).<BR><BR>After one sip of Chesapeake Amber, they understood.&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>In the SF genre, I once ran an adventure that took place on an old<BR>agricultural space station that had been converted into a brewery.&nbsp; The<BR>place was famous (in the story) for producing an evenly soothe and tasty<BR>ale, largely because of the micro-gravity conditions.<BR><BR>Which makes me wonder, could ale (or wine or hard liquor) be produced in<BR>micro-gravity?&nbsp; It's easy enough to build old-fashioned wooden barrels<BR>and the other hardware into space, but would the absence of gravity have<BR>an effect on the outcome?&nbsp; I know zilch about brewing.<BR><BR>Disclaimer: I know that most space structures in the Traveller universe<BR>(in fact, with most sci-fi settings) have some kind of contra-grav<BR>technology, but for this story I had ruled that the gravity grid only<BR>operated in the crew compartments.&nbsp; It created an opportunity for zero-g<BR>action later on in the story.<BR><BR><BR>Richard Pugh<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:22:28 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>That reminds me, I must stock up on Absinthe...<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>On Friday, March 2, 2001, at 05:15 PM, Volker wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I once saw imported german beer in a US liquor store. Not with the <BR>&gt; rest of the beers, but with the hard liquor... ;-) <BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/<BR>"Art is not a copy of the real world.<BR>One of the damn things is enough."<BR>- Unknown.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:56:56 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))<BR><BR>Richard J. Pugh wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; In the SF genre, I once ran an adventure that took place on an old<BR>&gt; agricultural space station that had been converted into a brewery.&nbsp; The<BR>&gt; place was famous (in the story) for producing an evenly soothe and tasty<BR>&gt; ale, largely because of the micro-gravity conditions.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Which makes me wonder, could ale (or wine or hard liquor) be produced in<BR>&gt; micro-gravity?&nbsp; It's easy enough to build old-fashioned wooden barrels<BR>&gt; and the other hardware into space, but would the absence of gravity have<BR>&gt; an effect on the outcome?&nbsp; I know zilch about brewing.<BR><BR>Hmmmm...I give the good inventive souls on board the ISS about a year or <BR>two before they try...I suspect that once the biology lab gets set up <BR>it'll be a lot easier to hide...<BR><BR>I also wonder if it hasn't already been done on Mir...that's not exactly <BR>something they'd publish...<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:59:15 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; COMMIT;<BR><BR>You don't need a commit for DDL, only DML. :-P<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:59:23 -0000 <BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>It does make the heart grow fonder...hang on, that's wrong...<BR><BR>Dean<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Rob Myers [mailto:robm@h2g2.com]<BR>&gt; Sent: 02 March 2001 17:22<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; That reminds me, I must stock up on Absinthe...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; - Rob.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On Friday, March 2, 2001, at 05:15 PM, Volker wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; I once saw imported german beer in a US liquor store. Not with the <BR>&gt; &gt; rest of the beers, but with the hard liquor... ;-) <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/<BR>&gt; "Art is not a copy of the real world.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; One of the damn things is enough."<BR>&gt;&nbsp; - Unknown.<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:04:38 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; Heh.&nbsp; Certainly not my experience with Oracle.&nbsp; Anything under<BR>&gt; a gig is a tiny database (1-10 gigs is merely small).<BR><BR>In my current job our secondary application has an&nbsp; RDB&nbsp; (Oracle)<BR>database in 15 countries each of&nbsp; which&nbsp; is&nbsp; around&nbsp; 230 Gb.&nbsp; And<BR>that's not a replicated database, its unique data at&nbsp; each&nbsp; site.<BR>We're in the process of&nbsp; merging&nbsp; that&nbsp; into&nbsp; a&nbsp; couple&nbsp; of&nbsp; data<BR>centers ... say 5 sites in each and 5 remaining separate,&nbsp; so&nbsp; we<BR>could have 2 databases of around&nbsp; 1150 Gb&nbsp; each.&nbsp; Disk&nbsp; space&nbsp; is<BR>cheap ... the client would rather add another hard disk&nbsp; then&nbsp; go<BR>to the trouble of defining an offline archive strategy.<BR><BR>(Makes my PC's 30 Gb hard disk look kinda whimpy.)<BR><BR>ObTrav: As data glut expands, faster and faster computer&nbsp; systems<BR>take longer and longer to perform the same function.&nbsp; The players<BR>arrive at a TL15 world only to discover that any&nbsp; search&nbsp; of&nbsp; the<BR>local global net&nbsp; (even&nbsp; for&nbsp; trivial&nbsp; information)&nbsp; takes&nbsp; hours<BR>longer than on the TL9 world they just left.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:02:14 GMT<BR>From: Postmark Design Bureau &lt;postmark.design@btinternet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>DaveShayne wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Heavy barrel Length=23cm Weight=.69Kg Price=Cr276 E= 4039joules<BR><BR>Ok, I'll admit to knowing nothing about this subject, but 23cm<BR>seems to be a bit short for a 20mm sniper rifle barrel. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Phil Kitching, http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo<BR>Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Products Division<BR>"Microwaving halfbaked ideas from across the galaxy"<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:11:46 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; sense (hey, this links the beer thread to the programming<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; thread) or as in free speech sense ?<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; InterBase. Free and Open Source.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Thanks.&nbsp; I had originally wanted a free SQL-compliant RDBMS (ODBC<BR>&gt; for Windows) but had missed this one.&nbsp; From the blurb on the&nbsp; web<BR>&gt; it sounds ideal (support for BLOBs, too, so&nbsp; planetary&nbsp; maps&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; other graphics can be stored).&nbsp; I've downloaded it and will&nbsp; play<BR>&gt; with it this weekend.&nbsp; Ideally, a common Traveller database could<BR>&gt; be distributed as SQL scripts and loaded into&nbsp; the&nbsp; SQL-compliant<BR>&gt; RDBMS of your&nbsp; choice.&nbsp; I&nbsp; notice&nbsp; that&nbsp; InterBase&nbsp; has&nbsp; a&nbsp; Linux<BR>&gt; version (which would make porting "Traveller Universe"&nbsp; compliant<BR>&gt; software easier) ... not sure what to do about the Mac brigade.<BR><BR>Alas, not a heckuva lot until MacOSX comes out. Then we can port all these nice Open Source ones.<BR><BR>The Mac OS has been seriously deficient with respect to database apps <BR>for a long long time, (pretty much only FileMaker and Acius 4D) despite <BR>having some absolutely brilliant early efforts (such as the recently <BR>revived Helix, a completely graphical, object oriented database/RAD <BR>created in 1984 or so. see: http://www.helixtech.com/ I remember the <BR>first review of it, in Byte magazine where they described two librarians <BR>who purchased a Mac, got Helix, and proceeded to write a new version of <BR>their check-out/in book tracking software. From scratch. Visual <BR>computing environments are not all VB, and VB hardly represents the <BR>state of the art.)<BR><BR>This _will_ change with the advent of Mac OSX.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:18:19 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; Jesse, Glenn, Doug.&nbsp; Next Fun Shoot Mark and I will have to arrange a trip<BR>&gt;&nbsp; to one of our fine brewpubs, although I know you have you share in SF.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Tod<BR><BR>Good plan, Tod!&nbsp; We have a McMeninmins right here in Corvallis.&nbsp; Personally,<BR>I'm a big Terminator fan (the beer, not the Cyborg.)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:30:51 -0600<BR>From: Chris Olson &lt;chris@pdaguy.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Richard J. Pugh wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; In the SF genre, I once ran an adventure that took place on an old<BR>&gt;&gt; agricultural space station that had been converted into a brewery.&nbsp; The<BR>&gt;&gt; place was famous (in the story) for producing an evenly soothe and tasty<BR>&gt;&gt; ale, largely because of the micro-gravity conditions.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Which makes me wonder, could ale (or wine or hard liquor) be produced in<BR>&gt;&gt; micro-gravity?&nbsp; It's easy enough to build old-fashioned wooden barrels<BR>&gt;&gt; and the other hardware into space, but would the absence of gravity have<BR>&gt;&gt; an effect on the outcome?&nbsp; I know zilch about brewing.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hmmmm...I give the good inventive souls on board the ISS about a year <BR>&gt; or two before they try...I suspect that once the biology lab gets set <BR>&gt; up it'll be a lot easier to hide...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I also wonder if it hasn't already been done on Mir...that's not <BR>&gt; exactly something they'd publish...<BR>&gt; <BR>Ok, time to chime in.&nbsp; I do home brew, and I've done *one* from scratch <BR>brew (hard work, didn't turn out all that different from the malts I can <BR>buy and was a whole lot more work...).&nbsp; Anyway, part of the beer brewing <BR>process is making sure the carcasses from the yeast do not make it into <BR>the final product (*shudder*).&nbsp; You do this by letting the brew settle <BR>and then extracting the beer with a siphon from the above the /sludge/ <BR>on the bottom.&nbsp; I'm not sure why you don't filter the beer, but it's <BR>probably because that would prevent some live yeast making into the <BR>bottles and carbonating the result.<BR><BR>Okay, with that out of the way, how do I envision brewing in&nbsp; micro <BR>gravity?&nbsp; I think the actual brewing in null-g would go quite well, and <BR>help encourage a more even brewing process.&nbsp; BUT there would need to a <BR>stage where gravity is used to gently encourage the precipitation of the <BR>yeast corpses out of the brew.&nbsp; Probably by moving the barrel or by <BR>slowly dialing up the gravity beneath it.&nbsp; Increasing the gravity to <BR>beyond earths might actually improve the taste of the beer, as long as <BR>it was done slowly.<BR><BR>So the adventure could in fact occur on a space station, it just needs a <BR>little 'settling stage' that has variable gravity to work (IMHO, of course).<BR><BR>*WHEW*&nbsp; That may be my longest post to the TML so far....<BR><BR>Chris Olson<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:25:39 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;Not to say I dnt like US beers, I do drink them when I am there, but<BR>&gt;its just so damn hard to feel any effect other than the usual urine<BR>&gt;rush ;-)<BR><BR>Based on that statement, I have to assume that you've only sampled<BR>the mass-produced American goat-piss we sell to tourists in mini-marts.<BR><BR>Good U.S. microbrewery beers can be a match for Germany's finest.<BR>Back when I still worked for Howling Packrat (that's Hewlett-Packard<BR>to the rest of you lot), I travelled to Germany a couple times a year.<BR>On my first trip there, I fell in *LOVE* with a monastic brew, Andechs<BR>Dopplebock. It is, without a doubt, the finest dark beer in the<BR>Sagittarius arm of the Milky Way (and I may be unfairly restricting it<BR>at that.)&nbsp; Having said that, I have since discovered several dark beers<BR>brewed right here in my home state of Oregon (where SMGs are water-<BR>cooled) that could give it a run for it's money.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:33:06 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; Alas, not a heckuva lot until MacOSX comes out. Then we can <BR>&gt; port all these nice Open Source ones.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The Mac OS has been seriously deficient with respect to database apps <BR>&gt; for a long long time, (pretty much only FileMaker and Acius <BR>&gt; 4D)<BR><BR>Hmmm ... does ODBC work withing SoftWindows?&nbsp; And&nbsp; is&nbsp; FileMaker/<BR>Acius 4D SQL-compliant?<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:35:00 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Trevor, Peter writes:<BR>&gt; Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Heh.&nbsp; Certainly not my experience with Oracle.&nbsp; Anything under<BR>&gt; &gt; a gig is a tiny database (1-10 gigs is merely small).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In my current job our secondary application has an&nbsp; RDB&nbsp; (Oracle)<BR>&gt; database in 15 countries each of&nbsp; which&nbsp; is&nbsp; around&nbsp; 230 Gb.&nbsp; And<BR>&gt; that's not a replicated database, its unique data at&nbsp; each&nbsp; site.<BR><BR>Heh.&nbsp; Yes, there are some huge oracle systems out there.&nbsp; I'd still probably<BR>say 10-100 gigs is medium-sized, 100-1000 gigs is large, and anything above<BR>a terabyte probably qualifies as huge, but I may be showing my bias here.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:35:31 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Looking for an Artist....<BR><BR>In our CT game the group just acquired a Beowulf class Far trader. The Ships<BR>Name is "Mahina Tiare"<BR><BR>Mahina Tiare is Polynesian it means this<BR><BR>Mahina means Moon<BR>Tiare means Flower<BR><BR>Also Mahina is Derived from Hina which is a Polynesian goddess of Life,<BR>Death, and Rebirth.<BR><BR>Well I want to Put the adventures of the group on the Internet. but I am not<BR>an Artist. I am looking for someone who could Draw us a Picture for our<BR>website. I could pay a small amount if needed. if anyone can or would be<BR>willing to assist me in this endeavor it would be appreciated.<BR><BR>Thanks <BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:45:54 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR><BR>Are you looking for the ship or the crew?<BR>Jesse<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:36 AM<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: Looking for an Artist....<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In our CT game the group just acquired a Beowulf class Far <BR>&gt; trader. The Ships<BR>&gt; Name is "Mahina Tiare"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Mahina Tiare is Polynesian it means this<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Mahina means Moon<BR>&gt; Tiare means Flower<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Also Mahina is Derived from Hina which is a Polynesian goddess of Life,<BR>&gt; Death, and Rebirth.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Well I want to Put the adventures of the group on the Internet. <BR>&gt; but I am not<BR>&gt; an Artist. I am looking for someone who could Draw us a Picture for our<BR>&gt; website. I could pay a small amount if needed. if anyone can or would be<BR>&gt; willing to assist me in this endeavor it would be appreciated.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Thanks <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bill<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:44:37 -0500<BR>From: Jonathan McDermott &lt;caraig@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:35:31 -0000<BR>&gt;From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: RE: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; As someone mentioned later (I'm not sure who) I think this<BR>&gt; &gt; qualifies you as<BR>&gt; &gt; the official TML beerhead. =)&nbsp; This really was a fascinating read.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I'm flatter that I'm so memorable :|<BR><BR>The digest with your comment had been deleted by the time I started my <BR>message.&nbsp; No offense was intended, honest. :(<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; So... what would be in Scout Brew?&nbsp; Besides stuff that has to be set<BR>&gt; &gt; outside the jumpspace bubble for the better part of a week...?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;OUTSIDE the jump bubble? How would you get it back...pull on the rope? :)<BR><BR>Figuring out these sorts of things is what scouts on X-boats do for the <BR>week they're cooped up, isn't it? =)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:53:07 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR><BR>Well i was thinking Like a ships Symbol. Like a Polynesian Woman looking at<BR>a flower with a moon in the back ground and a ship Flying around it or<BR>something. Or a Picture of above and a picture of the ship with the Symbol<BR>on it. Something like that.<BR><BR>Something to help create a feel for the site.<BR><BR>I dont know if that makes sense.<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Jesse Degraff [mailto:jedegraf@cisco.com]<BR>Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:46 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR><BR><BR>Are you looking for the ship or the crew?<BR>Jesse<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:36 AM<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: Looking for an Artist....<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In our CT game the group just acquired a Beowulf class Far <BR>&gt; trader. The Ships<BR>&gt; Name is "Mahina Tiare"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Mahina Tiare is Polynesian it means this<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Mahina means Moon<BR>&gt; Tiare means Flower<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Also Mahina is Derived from Hina which is a Polynesian goddess of Life,<BR>&gt; Death, and Rebirth.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Well I want to Put the adventures of the group on the Internet. <BR>&gt; but I am not<BR>&gt; an Artist. I am looking for someone who could Draw us a Picture for our<BR>&gt; website. I could pay a small amount if needed. if anyone can or would be<BR>&gt; willing to assist me in this endeavor it would be appreciated.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Thanks <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bill<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:53:07 -0500<BR>From: Jonathan McDermott &lt;caraig@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [TML] Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:29:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>&gt;From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>&gt;American beer=making love in a canoe=fucking close to water<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;lol,<BR>&gt;Kiri<BR><BR>*laugh* THIS is going to take some explaining to the boss!<BR><BR>"Why I laughed so loudly like that?&nbsp; Well, sir, it's like this...."<BR><BR>I fear I'm nowhere near the beer gourmet that some people are; I just have <BR>to take peoples' word that (1) American beer is pretty close to what you <BR>get out of a LHyd-LOx fuel cell, minus the power, and (2) non-American beer <BR>is stong enough to give serious noogies to American beer.&nbsp; I guess one of <BR>the defining factors could be how long the brew in question would have to <BR>be run through a fuel purification plant.<BR><BR>Hey, I had to make this refer to Traveller somehow! =)<BR><BR>Except that bit about chocolate being used in brewing certain beverages <BR>still rings a bell... =9<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:05:14 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR><BR>Ship's Logo in otherwords :)&nbsp; Perfectly understandable.<BR><BR>I can't be much help with that one, but if somebody else can do the logo<BR>nicely, I can slap it on my Beowulf and give you a shot of the ship :)<BR><BR>Jesse<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:53 AM<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Well i was thinking Like a ships Symbol. Like a Polynesian Woman<BR>&gt; looking at<BR>&gt; a flower with a moon in the back ground and a ship Flying around it or<BR>&gt; something. Or a Picture of above and a picture of the ship with the Symbol<BR>&gt; on it. Something like that.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Something to help create a feel for the site.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I dont know if that makes sense.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Bill<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Jesse Degraff [mailto:jedegraf@cisco.com]<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:46 AM<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Are you looking for the ship or the crew?<BR>&gt; Jesse<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; &gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane<BR>&gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:36 AM<BR>&gt; &gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; &gt; Subject: Looking for an Artist....<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; In our CT game the group just acquired a Beowulf class Far<BR>&gt; &gt; trader. The Ships<BR>&gt; &gt; Name is "Mahina Tiare"<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Mahina Tiare is Polynesian it means this<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Mahina means Moon<BR>&gt; &gt; Tiare means Flower<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Also Mahina is Derived from Hina which is a Polynesian goddess of Life,<BR>&gt; &gt; Death, and Rebirth.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Well I want to Put the adventures of the group on the Internet.<BR>&gt; &gt; but I am not<BR>&gt; &gt; an Artist. I am looking for someone who could Draw us a Picture for our<BR>&gt; &gt; website. I could pay a small amount if needed. if anyone can or would be<BR>&gt; &gt; willing to assist me in this endeavor it would be appreciated.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Thanks<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Bill<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:05:19 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))<BR><BR>Chris Olson wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Okay, with that out of the way, how do I envision brewing in&nbsp; micro <BR>&gt; gravity?&nbsp; I think the actual brewing in null-g would go quite well, and <BR>&gt; help encourage a more even brewing process.&nbsp; BUT there would need to a <BR>&gt; stage where gravity is used to gently encourage the precipitation of the <BR>&gt; yeast corpses out of the brew.&nbsp; Probably by moving the barrel or by <BR>&gt; slowly dialing up the gravity beneath it.&nbsp; Increasing the gravity to <BR>&gt; beyond earths might actually improve the taste of the beer, as long as <BR>&gt; it was done slowly.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; So the adventure could in fact occur on a space station, it just needs a <BR>&gt; little 'settling stage' that has variable gravity to work (IMHO, of <BR>&gt; course).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; *WHEW*&nbsp; That may be my longest post to the TML so far....<BR><BR>And a good one...in microgravity the settling process is pretty easy...just spin the container.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:13:46 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR><BR>COOL!<BR><BR>now to find a Logo Artist 8P<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Jesse Degraff [mailto:jedegraf@cisco.com]<BR>Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 11:05 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR><BR><BR>Ship's Logo in otherwords :)&nbsp; Perfectly understandable.<BR><BR>I can't be much help with that one, but if somebody else can do the logo<BR>nicely, I can slap it on my Beowulf and give you a shot of the ship :)<BR><BR>Jesse<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:53 AM<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Well i was thinking Like a ships Symbol. Like a Polynesian Woman<BR>&gt; looking at<BR>&gt; a flower with a moon in the back ground and a ship Flying around it or<BR>&gt; something. Or a Picture of above and a picture of the ship with the Symbol<BR>&gt; on it. Something like that.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Something to help create a feel for the site.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I dont know if that makes sense.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Bill<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Jesse Degraff [mailto:jedegraf@cisco.com]<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:46 AM<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Are you looking for the ship or the crew?<BR>&gt; Jesse<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; &gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane<BR>&gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:36 AM<BR>&gt; &gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; &gt; Subject: Looking for an Artist....<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; In our CT game the group just acquired a Beowulf class Far<BR>&gt; &gt; trader. The Ships<BR>&gt; &gt; Name is "Mahina Tiare"<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Mahina Tiare is Polynesian it means this<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Mahina means Moon<BR>&gt; &gt; Tiare means Flower<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Also Mahina is Derived from Hina which is a Polynesian goddess of Life,<BR>&gt; &gt; Death, and Rebirth.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Well I want to Put the adventures of the group on the Internet.<BR>&gt; &gt; but I am not<BR>&gt; &gt; an Artist. I am looking for someone who could Draw us a Picture for our<BR>&gt; &gt; website. I could pay a small amount if needed. if anyone can or would be<BR>&gt; &gt; willing to assist me in this endeavor it would be appreciated.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Thanks<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Bill<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3760<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, March 2 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3761<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))<BR>re: Looking For...<BR>Re: Looking For...<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Micro gravity beer<BR>Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?&nbsp; IYTU?<BR>Re: Nobles and the imperium<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR>YKYBPTTL when....<BR>Traveller - The Database (E/R)<BR>Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?&nbsp; IYTU?<BR>Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>Central Software Repository<BR>Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:24:03 -0600<BR>From: Chris Olson &lt;chris@pdaguy.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))<BR><BR>Does this count as my TML-newbie paper (so I'm 5 years late with it, <BR>honest the dog ate it... :-)&nbsp; ?<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Chris Olson wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Okay, with that out of the way, how do I envision brewing in&nbsp; micro <BR>&gt;&gt; gravity?&nbsp; I think the actual brewing in null-g would go quite well, <BR>&gt;&gt; and help encourage a more even brewing process.&nbsp; BUT there would need <BR>&gt;&gt; to a stage where gravity is used to gently encourage the <BR>&gt;&gt; precipitation of the yeast corpses out of the brew.&nbsp; Probably by <BR>&gt;&gt; moving the barrel or by slowly dialing up the gravity beneath it.&nbsp; <BR>&gt;&gt; Increasing the gravity to beyond earths might actually improve the <BR>&gt;&gt; taste of the beer, as long as it was done slowly.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; So the adventure could in fact occur on a space station, it just <BR>&gt;&gt; needs a little 'settling stage' that has variable gravity to work <BR>&gt;&gt; (IMHO, of course).<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; *WHEW*&nbsp; That may be my longest post to the TML so far....<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; And a good one...in microgravity the settling process is pretty <BR>&gt; easy...just spin the container.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:14:44 -0800<BR>From: clifford n linehan &lt;cnl.rubicon@juno.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Looking For...<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 04:53:01 -0500 From: Jeff Zeitlin<BR>&lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Not the Alien Module; it was an article written up and posted on<BR>Freelance<BR>&gt;Traveller - I forgot exactly what section it appeared in, but look for<BR>&gt;something on the Order of Zar-tis.&nbsp; It's probably under "Kurishdam".<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Given the at-last-report-partially-not-quite-intact state of Downport,<BR>the<BR>&gt;primary Freelance Traveller site, let me point you to the mirror, at<BR>&gt;http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz/.<BR>&gt;- --<BR>&gt;Jeff Zeitlin<BR>&gt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Thanks for the reference Jeff. I found it under the "Doing It My Way"<BR>section.<BR><BR>The Order of Zar-Tis - A Daryen career for Megatraveller by Jason Kemp.<BR><BR>This is a good artical on what I can best describe as "Jedi Knights in<BR>Traveller". It also provides a good description of the The Brand of<BR>Zar-Tis, a TL16 personal melee weapon.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com<BR>http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller<BR>Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.<BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:34:57 -0800<BR>From: clifford n linehan &lt;cnl.rubicon@juno.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Looking For...<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:01:56 -0500 From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>&gt;&gt;Greetings All,<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller<BR>to what<BR>&gt;&gt;can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;ISTR a mention somewhere, probably either Book 0 or a JTAS editorial,<BR>&gt;mentioning light sabers as the sort of cool-looking-but-impossible thing<BR>&gt;that individual refs could add to their games, but which weren't going<BR>to<BR>&gt;be included in 'real' Traveller.&nbsp; Probably not the sort of 'canon<BR>reference'<BR>&gt;you were looking for...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Trent<BR><BR>It must be in the JTAS, I just skimmed Book 0 and did not find a specific<BR>reference to Light Sabers by name. There is a section pointing out that<BR>GM's need to weigh the effects on overall balance of play in the<BR>universe.<BR><BR>I do not want to justify the weapon in canon. I just wanted to find out<BR>if there was a known reference that I did not have access to.<BR><BR>The reason for this search is that I recently found an old PC of mine<BR>that has a light saber that was allowed by the GM at the time I created<BR>the PC. If said weapon is canon I will allow my PC to keep it, if not<BR>then it will be removed. The PC never saw much play, but it is a good PC.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com<BR>http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller<BR>Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.<BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 21:34:39 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>Peter Newman writes:<BR>&gt;Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Money isn't wealth. It's a promisory note. Until you can convert the money into<BR>&gt;&gt;something you can burn, fondle, or eat it's just so much scrap paper/electronic<BR>&gt;&gt;noise.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;If people will accept your money for their credits you get what you want. <BR><BR>But if people can't buy something they want for your money, they won't accept<BR>it. And if no one is carting goods from your planet to theirs, they can't buy<BR>anything for your money.<BR><BR>&gt;If people wont accept your Imperial Credits within the Imperium then they're<BR>&gt;traitors.<BR><BR>Piffle. No law requires them to sell you anything if they don't want to. And if<BR>you can't pay them with something they want, they won't want to.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;But the only way to cash in that debt is for the Imperium to deliver something<BR>&gt;&gt;valuable to the holder of that credit (Or, as will more often be the case,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>&gt;&gt;the only way for the Imperium to get any use out of the tax credits it has<BR>&nbsp; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>&gt;&gt;recieved from a world is to buy stuff (or services) from that world.)<BR>&nbsp; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR><BR>&gt;The valuable good the Imperium delivers to it's member worlds<BR>&gt;is "Pay your taxes and don't get invaded by us."<BR><BR>I specifically mention the case of the Imperium wanting to spend credits<BR>they've taxed away from a member world. The only way the Imperium can get<BR>anything useful from a world is to spend those credits on stuff that can<BR>be physically lifted off the planetary surface and moved elsewhere (Well,<BR>they can also pay for services rendered on the spot, but there are obvious<BR>limits to that. You can't buy an appendectomy on a planet and save it for<BR>later; you have to go to that planet to get it.)<BR><BR>&gt;Governments are nothing more than protection rackets. If the alternative is<BR>&gt;being invaded then the member worlds have a pretty good chance of getting<BR>&gt;those Imperial credits out of their subjects pockets .<BR><BR>But all that gets them is a promisory note. You can't eat a promisory note, you<BR>can't use it to fuel your starships and you can't use it to pay someone on the<BR>next planet over _unless_ there is some trade between the two planets.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 07:40:25 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>&gt;From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Am Friday, March 02, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; American beer=making love in a canoe=fucking close to water<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I'd like to point out for the record that not all American beer is Oly,<BR>&gt;&gt; Budweiser, Miller, etc.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I once saw imported german beer in a US liquor store. Not with the<BR>&gt;rest of the beers, but with the hard liquor... ;-)<BR><BR>At one time, I was living in Sydney, across the road from a pub and about a mile from the Carlton <BR>Brewery. My favorite beer is Sheaf Stout, which is drunk in Australia by 80 year old alcoholics, and me.<BR><BR>Despite being a mile from the brewery, the local pub does not stock Sheaf Stout.<BR><BR>I go to Fairbanks, Alaska, a army and university town in the middle of nowhere in Alaska.<BR><BR>I go into the grog section of the local supermarket, and amongst all the imported beers I find ... Sheaf <BR>Stout.<BR><BR>ObTravs should be pretty obvious.<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 07:45:43 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Richard J. Pugh" &lt;rjpugh@patriot.net&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))<BR><BR>&lt;beer stuff snipped&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Disclaimer: I know that most space structures in the Traveller universe<BR>&gt;(in fact, with most sci-fi settings) have some kind of contra-grav<BR>&gt;technology, but for this story I had ruled that the gravity grid only<BR>&gt;operated in the crew compartments.&nbsp; It created an opportunity for zero-g<BR>&gt;action later on in the story.<BR><BR>A favorite FS optiminsation technique is only to put the artificial gravity where it is needed (ie crew <BR>quarters, engineering and gunnery stations). The savings in money, volume, mass and power can be <BR>substantial.<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:10:06 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?&nbsp; IYTU?<BR><BR>Charles,<BR><BR>Sorry for the delay - Real Life intruded for a while.<BR>I can't recall if I've thanked you yet for your very <BR>nice reply, so I'll do so now at the risk of repeating<BR>myself. :)&nbsp; Thanks!<BR><BR>On 23 Feb 2001, at 0:16, Charles R Hensley wrote:<BR>&gt; Inresponse to all your questions.&nbsp; YES<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; This is one place I like to compair the Imperium to the US (this should<BR>&gt; apply to many parts of the world, or the world in general).&nbsp; There is a<BR>&gt; major overriding culture that can be seen on ALL imperial worlds (lets<BR>&gt; call it the "standard imperial culture").&nbsp; The level that this culture<BR>&gt; is seen on a world varies between just the portmaster at a Class E<BR>&gt; starport to entire worlds. The backwaters, underdeveloped, and/or low<BR>&gt; tech worlds tend to show the least "standard imperial culture", while<BR>&gt; the high tech, well developed, heavily traveled worlds tend to show the<BR>&gt; most.&nbsp; The "standard imperial culture" is maintained by the Nobles, news<BR>&gt; media, x-boat, etc.<BR><BR>OK, that's what I kind of thought, but it hadn't been spelled out in <BR>the stuff I've read.<BR><BR>&gt; In addition to the "standard imperial culture", there are major regional<BR>&gt; cultures, normally based around pre-Imperial empires (i.e. Vilani,<BR>&gt; solamani, vegan, etc) (see any officially published contact articles and<BR>&gt; many unofficial). But these major regional cultures may also show up in<BR>&gt; unlikely places (several megacorps are of Vilani origin and may have<BR>&gt; spread and maintained the Vilani culture elsewhere).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; There will be cultures that are entirely planet bound. those that wanted<BR>&gt; to maintain thier culture or a faxsimale there of may have moved to a<BR>&gt; location that would limit intrusion by other cultures (mostly<BR>&gt; backwaters). there will be conclaves of differing cultures on the major<BR>&gt; worlds (example any major US city has districts that have transplanted<BR>&gt; cultures from around the world, this should be true of most major cities<BR>&gt; around the world)<BR><BR>I've read bits on this list in the past and/or elsewhere that suggest<BR>various pre-Terran Confederation Earth cultures moved out into various<BR>areas of the Solomani Rim (Indian, Chinese, etc.?)&nbsp; Do you know of any <BR>sources/references for this info?<BR><BR>&gt; For examples, I would look at what ever region you live compair it to<BR>&gt; national culture, as seen on TV and other media. And then look at what<BR>&gt; ever backwater is near you, and then look at the big cities near you.<BR>&gt; Most if not all big cities or metropolitan areas have enclaves inwhich<BR>&gt; the majority of the inhabitants do not speak the national language,<BR>&gt; these enclaves will have a different culture than the majority of the<BR>&gt; surrounding area.<BR>&gt; For example, the area that I live in has a mixture of US, Southern, <BR>and<BR>&gt; Midwest cultures, plus I know of several enclaves of Mexican, Lao, <BR>and<BR>&gt; Vietnamese.&nbsp; And I know that I have not even looked for others.<BR><BR>Yes, Cleveland has it's cultural areas, some more commonly known, <BR>others only by where various groups live in this decade (and a lot move <BR>around - out to the suburbs to be specific).&nbsp; Sure there'd be areas for <BR>more common cultural/religious groups. Hmm - could the be a "Zho-<BR>town"/"Little Zhodane" on Regina?<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>'But it is the universal weakness of mankind that what we are <BR>given to administer we presently imagine we own.' -- H.G. Wells<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:13:22 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the imperium<BR><BR>On 2 Mar 2001, at 7:33, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; And that's just what I've been complaining about. You don't suddenly not have<BR>&gt; planetary barons, counts, dukes, princes, kings, and emperors just because you<BR>&gt; have an interstellar nobility added on top of that. Yet by changing SL B-F from<BR>&gt; planetary to interstellar titles, you effectively remove them from the social<BR>&gt; ladder. And that is not, IMO, right.<BR><BR>Yes, and maybe the various planetary nobility have been fighting the <BR>keepers of the UPP standards since their worlds joined... :)<BR>(i.e. it could be a political artifact if played that way, if UPPs are<BR>in-game stats and not just metagame.)&nbsp; <BR><BR>&lt;brainstorming - this could get ugly...&gt; <BR>Or the SL number of the UPP could be considered a kind of payscale - <BR>the working classes need differentiation for tax purposes (i.e. you pay <BR>based on what you earn and/or prominence in the society - hmm, not so <BR>sure about that...), but anyway, the nobles being kind of employees of <BR>the state administer the taxes of their territories and their personal <BR>pay (if any) is not subject to individual taxation.<BR><BR>Otherwise you'd need a scale like this.&nbsp; And who'd ever roll anything<BR>during chargen to get into Imperial nobility? (If that's desired, and <BR>of course it's up to the ref, etc.)<BR><BR>B - Knight, planetary - may have an estate in a baronage<BR>C - Baron, planetary&nbsp; - rules a baronage in a region<BR>D - Marquis, planetary- rules a region in a county<BR>E - Count, planetary&nbsp; - rules a county in a dukedom<BR>F - Duke, planetary&nbsp;&nbsp; - rules a dukedom in a province of a nation/world<BR>G - Prince, Planetary - rules one or more provinces of a nation/world<BR>H - King, planetary&nbsp;&nbsp; - rules one or more nation-states or a world(s)<BR>I - Emperor, pocket&nbsp;&nbsp; - rules one or more worlds (&lt;&lt;&lt;11,000 :) <BR>J - Knight, Imperial&nbsp; - may have an estate on a world<BR>K - Baron, Imperial&nbsp;&nbsp; - rules a portion of a world<BR>L - Marquis, Imperial - rules a world<BR>M - Count, Imperial&nbsp;&nbsp; - rules a subsector<BR>N - Duke, Imperial&nbsp; &nbsp; - rules a sector<BR>O - Prince, Imperial&nbsp; - rules a province<BR>P - Emperor, Imperial - rules the Imperium.<BR><BR>I can see possible problems with this scale - is there a need for H and <BR>I, would "pocket emperors" even exist within the Imperium (unless it's <BR>there in the scale to handle visiting foreign dignitaries) - and it <BR>makes an Imperial Knight better than the ruler of several worlds.<BR>Might have to overlap them, in which case where do you start? Is an <BR>Imperial Knight more powerful/influential/special than a planetary <BR>King? Duke? Count?&nbsp; Going from the correspondence of a pocket emperor,<BR>controller of a few worlds, to an Imperial Count controlling several <BR>worlds in a subsector I get this.&nbsp; I could see bumping the Imperials<BR>up a level (to start at G) out of pride (it is there system after all).<BR>So if you get to F in chargen a decision must be made as to which <BR>branch to take.<BR><BR>B - Knight, planetary<BR>C - Baron, planetary<BR>D - Marquis, planetary<BR>E - Count, planetary<BR>F - Duke, planetary&nbsp; - Knight, Imperial<BR>G - Prince, Planetary- Baron, Imperial<BR>H - King, planetary&nbsp; - Marquis, Imperial<BR>I - Emperor, pocket&nbsp; - Count, Imperial<BR>J -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Duke, Imperial<BR>K -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Prince, Imperial<BR>L -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Emperor<BR><BR>I'm sure there are lots of problems with this, so fire away.<BR>&nbsp; <BR>Rob D.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>'I used to have a handle on life, then it broke.'<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:13:04 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>Ian or Katts wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; At one time, I was living in Sydney, across the road from a pub and about a mile from the Carlton <BR>&gt; Brewery. My favorite beer is Sheaf Stout, which is drunk in Australia by 80 year old alcoholics, and me.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Despite being a mile from the brewery, the local pub does not stock Sheaf Stout.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I go to Fairbanks, Alaska, a army and university town in the middle of nowhere in Alaska.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I go into the grog section of the local supermarket, and amongst all the imported beers I find ... Sheaf <BR>&gt; Stout.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; ObTravs should be pretty obvious.<BR><BR>Ha, that reminds me. Once upon a time there was a small beer and soda distributor in town; you went there and bought cases of stuff in returnable bottles. Well, My roomate and I were having a party and were in need of some cheap beer. This distributor stocked 'Old Milwaukee' so we got a case. For cheap beer ($6 a case) it was amazingly good. We later discovered that the parent company of the brand contracted out brewing to various local contract breweries. The one in Phoenix, apparently had a particularly talented brewmaster, who made even the cheap stuff taste good. <BR><BR><BR>ObTrav: I'd suspect MOST 'manufactured foodstuffs' in the TU are handled <BR>by local manufacturers working on contract, not by shipping things like <BR>beer across a dozen parsecs. Thus Blatz Beer on Regina is likely to be a <BR>little different than Blatz Beer on Trin.<BR><BR>Sometimes a lot different. This is why Brubecks goes to the lenghts it <BR>does to supply it's extablishments with a concentrate rather than rely <BR>on local breweries.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:36:36 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;If people will accept your money for their credits you get what you want. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; But if people can't buy something they want for your money, they won't<BR>&gt; accept it. And if no one is carting goods from your planet to theirs, they<BR>&gt; can't buy anything for your money.<BR><BR>More to the point, planets can't mint their own CrI anyway.&nbsp; Unless the planet<BR>is selling stuff, it won't have any credits to buy things with.<BR><BR>The net effect is that, directly or indirectly, the Imperium receives _all_<BR>taxes as material, because the only way to acquire CrI is to get them from<BR>someone who has them or can mint them, and they're only minted by the <BR>imperium; thus, in the end CrI represent sales to the Imperium.<BR><BR>Note that in FT at least, some worlds (high population, poor starport) can <BR>have total trade which is lower than their theoretical tax burden.&nbsp; It's<BR>anyone's guess just how they pay their taxes.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:48:31 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium<BR><BR>Steve (Bloo) Daniels writes:<BR>&gt;Have you thought about looking at regional world populations<BR>&gt;when thinking about the relative influence of different noble<BR>&gt;ranks?<BR><BR>Yes. I wrote an article for _The Traveller Chronicle_ once where I worked out a<BR>SL scale based on how many people a noble's "fief" constituted. (I put fief in<BR>quotes because it doesn't have to be a real fief).<BR><BR>========================================<BR><BR>TABLES<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Approximate<BR>Description&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SL&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; UPP&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Old Terran<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; code&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Equivalent<BR><BR>Near-noble (Gentry)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; C&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Squire<BR>Appointed noble&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; D&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Knight<BR>Very rich/powerful non-noble&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; E&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Magnate <BR>Hereditary noble, no base&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; F&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Banneret <BR>Town-sized base (1000)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; G&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Baron<BR><BR>County-sized base (10,000)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; H&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Count/Earl <BR>Region-sized base (100,000)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; J&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Marquis/Duke <BR>Province-sized base (1 million)&nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; K&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Archduke/Prince<BR><BR>Country-sized base (10 million)&nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; L&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; King <BR>Empire-sized base (100 million)&nbsp; 21&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; M&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Emperor <BR>Continent-sized base (1 billion) 22&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; N&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; NA <BR>World-sized base (10 billion)&nbsp; &nbsp; 23&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; P&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; NA<BR><BR>Modifications:<BR><BR>Pre-industrial society&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -4&nbsp; Sovereign ruler&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1<BR>Industrial society&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -2&nbsp; Elected or appointed official&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -1<BR>Pre-stellar society&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -1&nbsp; Heir to position&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -1<BR>Early Stellar society&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; Younger children&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -2<BR>Average Stellar society&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +1<BR>High Stellar society&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; Minor non-human race&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -1<BR><BR>All modifications are guidelines only. Positions that reach 24 and above<BR>will almost invariably recieve an Imperial noble title (So the ruler of a<BR>planet with billions of citizens and a High Stellar technology would be at<BR>least an Imperial marquis, propably more).<BR><BR><BR>BTW, here is on of the illustrations I suggested for the article (none of them<BR>were used). This one was supposed to illustrate the point that it isn't the<BR>title itself that is important but the power associated with it:<BR><BR>At another brilliant gala ball. A man in a splendid, spiffed-up boiler<BR>suit is looking haughtily at a man in a military uniform with small ducal<BR>crowns for rank insignia. Behind the first man stands a small page<BR>carrying a silken pillow on which rests a jewel-encrusted ceremonial<BR>monkey wrench. Text: "Miserable worm! How dare you, a mere army duke,<BR>address me, The Chief Mechanic, without being spoken to first?!"<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Regarding the Typical value for fiefs. Is that 'annual' value?<BR><BR>I think so.<BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:01:53 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: YKYBPTTL when....<BR><BR>On another list I'm on there was the following exchange:<BR>=======================================================================<BR>&gt;At 2:00 PM -0500 3/2/01, Jim Ludwig wrote:<BR>&gt;Would also recommend popping a really fast new video card in there to <BR>&gt;go with all the processing muscle!&nbsp; IIRC, nVidia has started selling <BR>&gt;the GeForce 2 MX retail.&nbsp; My wife won't let me get one right now, but <BR>&gt;I can always dream...<BR><BR><BR>Wifes... what a downer. But I would be bankrupt without mine. I have no <BR>affinity with forms and numbers. I can honestly say that women are way <BR>better with that stuff that we, poor half-brain guys, are.<BR>========================================================================<BR><BR>And all I could think through the coffee leaking from my nose was <BR>'Damned Ihatei!' ;-)<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 11:05:22 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Traveller - The Database (E/R)<BR><BR>Okay, lets start with the basics. Identifying entities and relationships <BR>(assuming we are going to use a RDBMS, though I think this might suit an <BR>OODBMS better).<BR><BR>Entities<BR>&nbsp; Sector<BR>&nbsp; SubSector<BR>&nbsp; System<BR>&nbsp; Star<BR>&nbsp; World<BR>&nbsp; GasGiant /* Seems to have different attributes from a world */<BR>&nbsp; PlanetoidBelt /* Seems to have different attributes from a world */<BR>&nbsp; Moon<BR>&nbsp; StarPort (?) /* Do we want to go to this level of abstraction */<BR><BR>Relationships<BR>&nbsp; Sector &lt;-&gt; SubSector&nbsp; &nbsp; 1:M Compulsory<BR>&nbsp; SubSector &lt;-&gt; System&nbsp; &nbsp; 1:M Compulsory<BR>&nbsp; System &lt;-&gt; Star&nbsp; &nbsp; 1:M Compulsory<BR>&nbsp; System &lt;-&gt; World&nbsp; &nbsp; 0:M Optional<BR>&nbsp; System &lt;-&gt; GasGiant&nbsp; &nbsp; 0:M Optional<BR>&nbsp; System &lt;-&gt; PlanetoidBelt&nbsp; &nbsp; 0:M Optional<BR>&nbsp; World &lt;-&gt; Moon&nbsp; &nbsp; 0:M Optional<BR>&nbsp; GasGiant &lt;-&gt; Moon&nbsp; &nbsp; 1:M Compulsory<BR>&nbsp; World &lt;-&gt; StarPort&nbsp; &nbsp; 1:1 Compulsory<BR>Notes: System must have at least one World or one GasGiant or one <BR>PlanetoidBelt.<BR><BR>So How does this look?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:04:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?&nbsp; IYTU?<BR><BR>I wish I could stop thinking of yogurt.<BR><BR>OK...<BR><BR>On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Rob Davenport wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On 23 Feb 2001, at 0:16, Charles R Hensley wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Inresponse to all your questions.&nbsp; YES<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; This is one place I like to compair the Imperium to the US (this should<BR>&gt; &gt; apply to many parts of the world, or the world in general).&nbsp; There is a<BR>&gt; &gt; major overriding culture that can be seen on ALL imperial worlds (lets<BR>&gt; &gt; call it the "standard imperial culture").&nbsp; The level that this culture<BR>&gt; &gt; is seen on a world varies between just the portmaster at a Class E<BR>&gt; &gt; starport to entire worlds. The backwaters, underdeveloped, and/or low<BR>&gt; &gt; tech worlds tend to show the least "standard imperial culture", while<BR>&gt; &gt; the high tech, well developed, heavily traveled worlds tend to show the<BR>&gt; &gt; most.&nbsp; The "standard imperial culture" is maintained by the Nobles, news<BR>&gt; &gt; media, x-boat, etc.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; OK, that's what I kind of thought, but it hadn't been spelled out in <BR>&gt; the stuff I've read.<BR>&gt;<BR>That's true, although most of the places US culture shows up in outside<BR>the US aren't actually part of the US.&nbsp; Chinese culture is also pretty<BR>pervasive-- you can find Chinatowns in most large cities.<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; In addition to the "standard imperial culture", there are major regional<BR>&gt; &gt; cultures, normally based around pre-Imperial empires (i.e. Vilani,<BR>&gt; &gt; solamani, vegan, etc) (see any officially published contact articles and<BR>&gt; &gt; many unofficial). But these major regional cultures may also show up in<BR>&gt; &gt; unlikely places (several megacorps are of Vilani origin and may have<BR>&gt; &gt; spread and maintained the Vilani culture elsewhere).<BR><BR>I thought the K'Kree were the vegan empire??<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; There will be cultures that are entirely planet bound. those that wanted<BR>&gt; &gt; to maintain thier culture or a faxsimale there of may have moved to a<BR>&gt; &gt; location that would limit intrusion by other cultures (mostly<BR>&gt; &gt; backwaters). there will be conclaves of differing cultures on the major<BR>&gt; &gt; worlds (example any major US city has districts that have transplanted<BR>&gt; &gt; cultures from around the world, this should be true of most major cities<BR>&gt; &gt; around the world)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I've read bits on this list in the past and/or elsewhere that suggest<BR>&gt; various pre-Terran Confederation Earth cultures moved out into various<BR>&gt; areas of the Solomani Rim (Indian, Chinese, etc.?)&nbsp; Do you know of any <BR>&gt; sources/references for this info?<BR><BR>Well, that's sort of how I did it.&nbsp; But I don't know that it was ever<BR>canon.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; For examples, I would look at what ever region you live compair it to<BR>&gt; &gt; national culture, as seen on TV and other media. And then look at what<BR>&gt; &gt; ever backwater is near you, and then look at the big cities near you.<BR>&gt; &gt; Most if not all big cities or metropolitan areas have enclaves inwhich<BR>&gt; &gt; the majority of the inhabitants do not speak the national language,<BR>&gt; &gt; these enclaves will have a different culture than the majority of the<BR>&gt; &gt; surrounding area.<BR>&gt; &gt; For example, the area that I live in has a mixture of US, Southern, <BR>&gt; and<BR>&gt; &gt; Midwest cultures, plus I know of several enclaves of Mexican, Lao, <BR>&gt; and<BR>&gt; &gt; Vietnamese.&nbsp; And I know that I have not even looked for others.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Yes, Cleveland has it's cultural areas, some more commonly known, <BR>&gt; others only by where various groups live in this decade (and a lot move <BR>&gt; around - out to the suburbs to be specific).&nbsp; Sure there'd be areas for <BR>&gt; more common cultural/religious groups. Hmm - could the be a "Zho-<BR>&gt; town"/"Little Zhodane" on Regina?<BR><BR>What's funny about such places is the way they tend to shift.&nbsp; Chinatown<BR>in SF used to be Cantonese-speaking, today all the Cantonese speakers live<BR>in the Sunset/Richmond area and Chinatown is Mandarin-speaking much more<BR>than it used to be.&nbsp; There is a heavy Korean presence in Japantown, and<BR>many of the Japanese have moved into the Tenderloin.<BR><BR>Kiri&nbsp; ^_^<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:15:07 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>&gt;From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Oh, you Armerican types, never cease to amuse me. What you call beer<BR>&gt;is like making love in a kanoo (?Spelling?) to us german types.<BR><BR>What's wrong with making love in a canoe?&nbsp; Don't knock it if you haven't<BR>tried it.&nbsp; It takes a lot of focus and consistency, otherwise you'll tip<BR>the canoe over.&nbsp; What does this have to do with beer, anyway?&nbsp; It's quite<BR>the mixed metaphor -- although I do generally agree that American beers<BR>are not as good as European beers (specifically Finnish, Swedish, and<BR>German) that I've consumed in Europe.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Ob Traveller:&nbsp; We know a little about Eiswein from The Traveller Book (or<BR>maybe it's the Traveller Adventure; I don't recall).&nbsp; What about beer --<BR>who makes the best, who consumes the most, what flavors does it come in? <BR>I think the Aslan in the rimward parts of the Marches are particularly<BR>fond of beers made with fermented dust-spice.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 11:24:49 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Central Software Repository<BR><BR>The talk about a standardised Traveller Database and XML format got me <BR>thinking (dangerous thing that). How about we share components. Like, <BR>if/when we get a standardised Traveller UWP database agreed on, we write <BR>standard components to produce the SQL and XML in a variety of <BR>languages that can just be dropped into projects.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:59:47 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Okay, lets start with the basics. Identifying entities and relationships <BR>&gt; (assuming we are going to use a RDBMS, though I think this might suit an <BR>&gt; OODBMS better).<BR><BR>Well, OO in that the DB we use needs to support BLOBS for maps and suchlike.<BR><BR>&gt; Entities<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sector<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; SubSector<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; System<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Star<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; World<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; GasGiant /* Seems to have different attributes from a world */<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; PlanetoidBelt /* Seems to have different attributes from a world */<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Moon<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; StarPort (?) /* Do we want to go to this level of abstraction */<BR><BR>Worlds can have more than one starport, so yes, I think so.<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Relationships<BR><BR>&gt; World &lt;-&gt; StarPort&nbsp; &nbsp; 1:1 Compulsory<BR><BR>Worlds can have more than one Starport so it's World&lt;-&gt; StarPort 1:M Compulsory This is where we do need a starport table, to specify the Main starport of worlds. (If we go for that level of abstraction. Additional 'for color' starports could go into a catchall comments field on the world table.)<BR><BR>&gt; So How does this look?<BR><BR>Looks 'bout right. My oly reservation was the System &lt;-&gt; &lt;something&gt; <BR>I'll have to look, I'm not sure if any of the various world generation <BR>systems allow naked stars. First In does not, but it's been a while <BR>since I used any of the others.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3761<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-yd05.mx.aol.com (rly-yd05.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.5]) by air-yd01.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:02:51 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yd05.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:02:08 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA24298;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:01:05 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:59:58 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA24172<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:59:57 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:59:57 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103022259.RAA24172@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3761<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, March 2 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3762<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR>Scout Brew logo...<BR>Re: Scout Brew logo...<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Looking for an Artist...<BR>RE: Scout Brew logo...<BR>RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>Re: Scout Brew logo...<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Help! was [Arrghh!!]<BR>RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Looking For...<BR>Re: Micro gravity beer <BR>RE: Traveller software project<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Sayat<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>[Fwd: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how&nbsp; pervasive is it?&nbsp; IYTU?]<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:59:47 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR><BR>William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;Well i was thinking Like a ships Symbol. Like a Polynesian Woman looking at<BR>&gt;a flower with a moon in the back ground and a ship Flying around it or<BR>&gt;something. Or a Picture of above and a picture of the ship with the Symbol<BR>&gt;on it. Something like that.<BR><BR>One ships logo, coming right up!<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:01:00 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Scout Brew logo...<BR><BR>Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:<BR><BR>http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/<BR><BR>Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 15:34:52 -0800<BR>From: "Pronto" &lt;pronto_r031@telus.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Scout Brew logo...<BR><BR>&gt; Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Mark C.<BR>&gt;<BR>LOL, I like it!<BR>If they do sue, I'm willing to contribute (a little) to your defense fund.<BR><BR>Pronto<BR>AKA Brian Taylor<BR>Next year, at Burning Man!<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:02:21 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>Am Friday, March 02, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Despite being a mile from the brewery, the local pub does not stock Sheaf Stout.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; I go to Fairbanks, Alaska, a army and university town in the middle of nowhere in Alaska.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; I go into the grog section of the local supermarket, and amongst all the imported beers I find ... Sheaf <BR>&gt;&gt; Stout.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; ObTravs should be pretty obvious.<BR>;-) That reminds me:<BR>In US Magazines I have sometimes seen alcoholic beverages that are<BR>marketed as german made, such as Rumple Minze and others. Well I have<BR>yet to see those here....<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:40:33 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Looking for an Artist...<BR><BR>William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;In our CT game the group just acquired a Beowulf class Far trader. The Ships<BR>&gt;Name is "Mahina Tiare"<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Well I want to Put the adventures of the group on the Internet. but I am not<BR>&gt;an Artist. I am looking for someone who could Draw us a Picture for our<BR>&gt;website. I could pay a small amount if needed. if anyone can or would be<BR>&gt;willing to assist me in this endeavor it would be appreciated.<BR><BR>Bill, I just threw something together for you. You can review it at:<BR><BR>http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/ship_logo/<BR><BR>If it suits your needs, you can ask Jesse to take the big 300 dpi image<BR>and texture-map it onto a Beowulf-class ship for you. If this isn't what<BR>you had in mind, give me a little more detail and I'll have another go at<BR>it.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 15:46:41 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Scout Brew logo...<BR><BR>I Love it 8)<BR><BR>its great<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>me<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Mark F. Cook [mailto:markc@peak.org]<BR>Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 3:01 PM<BR>To: Traveller Mail List<BR>Subject: Scout Brew logo...<BR><BR><BR>Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:<BR><BR>http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/<BR><BR>Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:14:10 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>Jones, Dean wrote :<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; OMG! Does this make Jeff a Beerhead?<BR><BR>No, that's crass. We're Hopheads<BR><BR>Or perhaps BeerbBellies ?<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:08:15 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Scout Brew logo...<BR><BR>Mark F. Cook wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/<BR>&gt; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>Love it!!!<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:20:58 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; What I'd like to propose is that future databases be built&nbsp; to&nbsp; a<BR>&gt; common database design, which other programs can&nbsp; call&nbsp; from&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; add to.<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; If there is an interest I'll start posting&nbsp; the&nbsp; database&nbsp; design<BR>&gt; I've got so far in plain text form to the StuffOnline website for<BR>&gt; discussion.&nbsp; Later I can put a&nbsp; few&nbsp; sample&nbsp; databases&nbsp; (Classic,<BR>&gt; TNE,&nbsp; Milieu&nbsp; Zero,&nbsp; etc)&nbsp; online&nbsp; for&nbsp; people&nbsp; to&nbsp; download&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; customise.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Comments?<BR><BR>It should be defined in XML, either as DTD, or preferably using XML-Data.<BR>I have already done a DTD, but it would be better to have it in XML-Data.<BR>Just make sure it uses the W3C standard, not Microsoft's properietary<BR>modification(XDR).<BR><BR>If you must stick with older technology, it should be defined in SQL97 DDL,<BR>not a proprietary file format.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 00:14:59 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR><BR>Bill,<BR><BR>Your description of the logo sounded familiar. Take a look at the Hawaiian <BR>Airlines logo at:<BR>http://www.hawaiianair.com<BR>It might provide a starting point. Let me know if that is something like you <BR>had in mind. I can take a cut at putting something together for you.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Well i was thinking Like a ships Symbol. Like a Polynesian Woman looking at<BR>&gt;a flower with a moon in the back ground and a ship Flying around it or<BR>&gt;something. Or a Picture of above and a picture of the ship with the Symbol<BR>&gt;on it. Something like that.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Something to help create a feel for the site.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I dont know if that makes sense.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Bill<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:24:19 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Rob Myers wrote:<BR>&gt; Hey, great minds think alike. :-)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Here's a DTD for a simple-minded Traveller Markup Language.<BR><BR>Well, I still feel that XML-Data is a better idea, but if you want a DTD,<BR>the one I currently use is reproduced below :<BR><BR>&lt;!-- survey.dtd&nbsp; &nbsp; --&gt;<BR>&lt;!-- survey is the root of the document&nbsp; --&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT survey (textdetails, sector*)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ATTLIST survey<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; name CDATA #IMPLIED<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT sector (textdetails, subsectors?)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ATTLIST sector<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; name CDATA #IMPLIED<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; xpos (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A | B | C | D | E | F)<BR>#REQUIRED<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; ypos (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8) #REQUIRED<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT textdetails (name, description*, history*)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT name (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT description (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT history (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT subsector (textdetails, subsectorCapital?, system*)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ATTLIST subsector<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; position (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A | B | C | D | E | F)<BR>#REQUIRED<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;!-- The subsectors element contains the 16 subsectors of the sector&nbsp; --&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT subsectors (subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector,<BR>subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector,<BR>subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT subsectorCapital (#PCDATA)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT system (textdetails, star+)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ATTLIST system<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; hex (0101 | 0101 | 0102 | 0103 | 0104 | 0105 | 0106 | 0107 | 0108 | 0109 |<BR>0110 | 0201 | 0201 | 0202 | 0203 | 0204 | 0205 | 0206 | 0207 | 0208 | 0209 |<BR>0210 | 0301 | 0301 | 0302 | 0303 | 0304 | 0305 | 0306 | 0307 | 0308 | 0309 |<BR>0310 | 0401 | 0401 | 0402 | 0403 | 0404 | 0405 | 0406 | 0407 | 0408 | 0409 |<BR>0410 | 0501 | 0501 | 0502 | 0503 | 0504 | 0505 | 0506 | 0507 | 0508 | 0509 |<BR>0510 | 0601 | 0601 | 0602 | 0603 | 0604 | 0605 | 0606 | 0607 | 0608 | 0609 |<BR>0610 | 0701 | 0701 | 0702 | 0703 | 0704 | 0705 | 0706 | 0707 | 0708 | 0709 |<BR>0710 | 0801 | 0801 | 0802 | 0803 | 0804 | 0805 | 0806 | 0807 | 0808 | 0809 |<BR>0810) #REQUIRED<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT star (textdetails?, satellites?)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ATTLIST star<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; type (O5 | O6 | O7 | O8 | O9 | B0 | B1 | B2 | B3 | B4 | B5 | B6 | B7 | B8 |<BR>B9 | A0 | A1 | A2 | A3 | A4 | A5 | A6 | A7 | A8 | A9 | F0 | F1 | F2 | F3 |<BR>F4 | F5 | F6 | F7 | F8 | F9 | G0 | G1 | G2 | G3 | G4 | G5 | G6 | G7 | G8 |<BR>G9 | K0 | K1 | K2 | K3 | K4 | K5 | K6 | K7 | K8 | K9 | M0 | M1 | M2 | M3 |<BR>M4 | M5 | M6 | M7 | M8 | M9) #REQUIRED<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; size (Ia | Ib | II | III | IV | V | VI | D) #REQUIRED<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; mass CDATA #IMPLIED<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; luminosity CDATA #IMPLIED<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; orbit (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15)<BR>#IMPLIED<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; year CDATA #IMPLIED<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT satellites (satellite*, ring*, belt*, smallGasGiant*,<BR>largeGasGiant*, star*)*&gt;<BR>&lt;!ATTLIST satellite<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; orbit (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15)<BR>#REQUIRED<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; year CDATA #IMPLIED<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT satellite (textdetails?, profile, satellites?)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ATTLIST ring<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; orbit (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15)<BR>#REQUIRED<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT ring (textdetails?, profile)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ATTLIST belt<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; orbit (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15)<BR>#REQUIRED<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT belt (textdetails?, profile)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ATTLIST smallGasGiant<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; orbit (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15)<BR>#REQUIRED<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; year CDATA #REQUIRED<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT smallGasGiant (textdetails?, profile, satellites?)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ATTLIST largeGasGiant<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; orbit (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15)<BR>#REQUIRED<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; year CDATA #REQUIRED<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT largeGasGiant (textdetails?, profile, satellites?)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT profile (base*)&gt;<BR>&lt;!ATTLIST profile<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; port (A | B | C | D | E | F | G | H | Y | X) "Y"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; size (0 | R | S | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A | B | C | D | E |<BR>F) "0"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; atmosphere (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A | B | C | D | E | F)<BR>"0"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; hydrographics (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A) "0"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; population (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A) "0"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; government (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A | B | C | D) "0"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; lawlevel (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A) "0"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; techlevel (0 | R | S | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A | B | C | D |<BR>E | F | G | H | I | J | K | L) "0"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; tradeClass (None | Agricultural | Non-Agricutural | Industrial |<BR>Non-industrial | Poor | Rich) "None"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; TASClassification (None | Green | Amber | Red) "None"<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;!ELEMENT base EMPTY&gt;<BR>&lt;!ATTLIST base<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; type (Naval | Scout | WayStation) #REQUIRED<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:29:18 -0600<BR>From: Roseberry &lt;rosebee@mail.cswnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Help! was [Arrghh!!]<BR><BR>Doug Berry wrote [on Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:43:23 -0800]:<BR>and later [on Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:10:03]:<BR>&gt;Now I'm getting two copies of every message!&nbsp; Is there any way to<BR>check to<BR>&gt;see if I'm subscribed twice?<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt;Somehow, I have ended up subscribed to the list twice.&nbsp; once as<BR>&gt;gridlore@mindspring.com, and again as gridlore@pop.mindspring.com<BR><BR>So how did it turn out? I've sorta had a similar problem (I can get<BR>rid of one but<BR>not the other and the one I keep won't let me post. Not a big problem<BR>if your a<BR>lurker but annoying non the less).<BR><BR>From Tod Glenn: &gt;Let me know if it works.&lt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Ditto!<BR><BR>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Hot Springs, Arkansas<BR>end<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:28:30 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR><BR>Well i looked at Marks. It is really nice. <BR><BR>however the idea i had was sort foa&nbsp; cross between it and the one you showed<BR>me with the Hawaiian Air logo.<BR><BR>i head and shoulders shot of the girl facingto the left or right. sort of<BR>looking Down at a Flower cupped in her hands as the moon was sort of framing<BR>it sort of Like Marks.<BR><BR>I really appreciate this from all who are helping. Wished i was an artist 8P<BR><BR>thanks<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: John Lambert [mailto:hovtej@hotmail.com]<BR>Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 4:15 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....<BR><BR><BR>Bill,<BR><BR>Your description of the logo sounded familiar. Take a look at the Hawaiian <BR>Airlines logo at:<BR>http://www.hawaiianair.com<BR>It might provide a starting point. Let me know if that is something like you<BR><BR>had in mind. I can take a cut at putting something together for you.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Well i was thinking Like a ships Symbol. Like a Polynesian Woman looking at<BR>&gt;a flower with a moon in the back ground and a ship Flying around it or<BR>&gt;something. Or a Picture of above and a picture of the ship with the Symbol<BR>&gt;on it. Something like that.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Something to help create a feel for the site.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I dont know if that makes sense.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Bill<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:43:57 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Trevor, Peter wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; Er, so if my&nbsp; 'database'&nbsp; has&nbsp; grown&nbsp; to&nbsp; include&nbsp; all&nbsp; canonical<BR>&gt; sectors of the 3I and describes them down to the level&nbsp; generated<BR>&gt; by Heaven&amp;Earth (including planetary maps), isn't that going to<BR>&gt; (a) take a long time to load into memory, and<BR>&gt; (b) require an awful lot of memory?<BR><BR>A single fully detailed (according to Book 6) star-system with some<BR>aditional descriptive text takes less than 10K in my XML format.<BR><BR>So if every hex in the known Traveller universe had a fully detailed<BR>starsystem the entire storage required would be around 1.85 Gb. As less than<BR>half the hexes actually have starsystems that's about 900Mb.<BR><BR>I suspect an Access database with the same amount of information would be a<BR>_lot_ bigger., Access is notoriously inefficvient ind disk storage. (I've<BR>had Access databases that were 4Mb in size but only contained about 50k of<BR>actual data)<BR><BR>I would suggest that sectors be stored in a seperate file in this model,<BR>with the "universal" file represented only by a reference to the sector<BR>files.<BR><BR>A fully detailed Sector should be around 7 to 8 Mb in size,<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:45:54 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Looking For...<BR><BR>Cliff Linehan wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in <BR>&gt; Traveller to what can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?<BR><BR>Yes. In an Editorial in JTAS, where they explained why they wouldn't do it.<BR>&lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>I also remember one in an old White Dwarf or Dragon article.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:45:09 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer <BR><BR>&gt;From: Chris Olson &lt;chris@pdaguy.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;*WHEW*&nbsp; That may be my longest post to the TML so far....<BR><BR>411 words, according to WordPerfect; well-chosen ones according to this<BR>reader.&nbsp; Would that we all could exercise such restraint.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:58:26 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Ian or Katts wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer sense <BR>&gt; (hey, this links the beer thread to the <BR>&gt; programming thread) or as in free speech sense ?<BR><BR>Yes. There are windows implementations of MySQL available.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:31:14 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Frank G. Pitt writes:<BR><BR>&gt; A single fully detailed (according to Book 6) star-system with some<BR>&gt; aditional descriptive text takes less than 10K in my XML format.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; So if every hex in the known Traveller universe had a fully detailed<BR>&gt; starsystem the entire storage required would be around 1.85 Gb. As less<BR>&gt; than half the hexes actually have starsystems that's about 900Mb.<BR><BR>There's less than 15,000 canon worlds.&nbsp; More like 150 Mb, or 4-5 MB/sector.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:35:54 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; At one time, I was living in Sydney, across the road from <BR>&gt; a pub and about a mile from the Carlton <BR>&gt; Brewery. My favorite beer is Sheaf Stout, which is drunk <BR>&gt; in Australia by 80 year old alcoholics, and me.<BR>&gt; Despite being a mile from the brewery, the local pub does <BR>&gt; not stock Sheaf Stout.<BR><BR>&gt; I go to Fairbanks, Alaska, a army and university town in the <BR>&gt; middle of nowhere in Alaska.<BR>&gt; I go into the grog section of the local supermarket, and amongst <BR>&gt; all the imported beers I find ... Sheaf Stout.<BR><BR>What year was this? Are you sure you weren't in a liquor store? <BR>It is _illegal_ for a supermarket to sell beer (or any sort of<BR>alcohol) in this state. Only liquor stores and bars can sell<BR>alcohol.<BR><BR>&gt; ObTravs should be pretty obvious.<BR><BR>But few traveller planets will be as much of a hell hole as<BR>Fairbanks is, so it's not a useful comparison. :)<BR><BR>Lets see at Cr 1,000 per jump per kilo liter (Yes, I know<BR>it's different in G:trav) then transporting a beer would <BR>cost less than CR 4 per jump per six-pack. If you transported<BR>it via jump 4 long range liners it would cost CR 40+ per<BR>drink to transport it across the Imperium.<BR><BR>It might be an amusing quirk for a Traveller character to <BR>have a favorite beer that is micro brewed in another sector<BR>and to insist on drinking no other, no matter what it costs.<BR><BR>6 beers at 12+ ounces each is less than 2 liters. Double the<BR>volume to four liters to account for the bottles, packaging<BR>and shipping containers to get 4 liters or 0.004 kilo liters.<BR>If you package the beer a bit better a six-pack could be more <BR>like 3 liters.<BR><BR>I'm sure that the mass market Imperial beers would be dehydrated<BR>at the factory and then reconcentrated with water at the factory.<BR>They'd probably taste like it too.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:40:57 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sayat<BR><BR>&gt; Antti Lahtinen &lt;lahtinen@ee.tut.fi&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; The Imperial Ministry of Commerce has not yet handed down a ruling on<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; whether the PMPP is to be regulated as a "concealable weapon", however.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hmm. Another perspective to the PMPP. Checking the volumes of<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; the plasma weapon components and assuming that the weapon is<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; cylindrical in shape, its diameter is about 9 cm. That might be<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; hard to conceal.<BR><BR>It, er, can be seen as designed to be concealed in a flexible <BR>body cavity that is more than capable of accommodating objects<BR>of that size....<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:52:09 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; Peter Newman writes:<BR>&gt; &gt;Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Money isn't wealth. It's a promisory note. Until you can convert the money<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; into something you can burn, fondle, or eat it's just so much scrap paper<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;If people will accept your money for their credits you get what you want. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; But if people can't buy something they want for your money, they won't accept<BR>&gt; it. And if no one is carting goods from your planet to theirs, they can't buy<BR>&gt; anything for your money.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;If people wont accept your Imperial Credits within the Imperium then they're<BR>&gt; &gt;traitors.<BR><BR>&gt; Piffle. No law requires them to sell you anything if they don't want to. And if<BR>&gt; you can't pay them with something they want, they won't want to.<BR><BR>Are you trying to tell me that when you walk into a store with<BR>Imperial Credits and the shopkeeper refuses to accept them that<BR>the Imperial government is going to let them get away with it.<BR>That sort of thing was directly responsible for the fall of the<BR>Rule of Man and the Long Night. Do you honestly think that the<BR>Third Imperium is going to allow it?<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;The valuable good the Imperium delivers to it's member worlds<BR>&gt; &gt;is "Pay your taxes and don't get invaded by us."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I specifically mention the case of the Imperium wanting to spend credits<BR>&gt; they've taxed away from a member world. The only way the Imperium can get<BR>&gt; anything useful from a world is to spend those credits on stuff that can<BR>&gt; be physically lifted off the planetary surface and moved elsewhere (Well,<BR>&gt; they can also pay for services rendered on the spot, but there are obvious<BR>&gt; limits to that. You can't buy an appendectomy on a planet and save it for<BR>&gt; later; you have to go to that planet to get it.)<BR><BR>The most expensive goods the Imperium uses are probably<BR>capital class starships. Canon establishes that many types<BR>of starships are built at many locations. <BR><BR>The way I see it the Imperium demands that people accept Imperial<BR>credits. When they want something they buy it on location, hire <BR>someone to deliver it, or transport it themselves in their own<BR>(typically military) starships that they purchased using Imperial<BR>Credits or which they had built by yard crew paid in Imperial credits.<BR><BR>The Imperial credit is a symbol of the idea of the Imperium. When<BR>you reject the credit you are rejecting the Imperium. Yes, of course,<BR>the Imperial credit is intrinsically nothing more than pretty<BR>extruded plastic with cunning anti counterfeiting measures but<BR>the common acceptance of the Imperial credit is one of the key reasons<BR>for the creation of the Imperium in the first place (to promote<BR>trade, which common currencies do).<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Governments are nothing more than protection rackets. If the alternative is<BR>&gt; &gt;being invaded then the member worlds have a pretty good chance of getting<BR>&gt; &gt;those Imperial credits out of their subjects pockets .<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; But all that gets them is a promisory note. You can't eat a promisory note, you<BR>&gt; can't use it to fuel your starships and you can't use it to pay someone on the<BR>&gt; next planet over _unless_ there is some trade between the two planets.<BR><BR>If the next planet over will not accept your Imperial credits<BR>they are saying that they do not believe that the Imperium is<BR>good for the debt. For a member world to say that is clearly<BR>rebellious. There is a very good reason why the Imperial navy<BR>has weapons of mass destruction and it is not the Zhodani.<BR>Read your MT.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 20:56:52 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>On 2 Mar 01, at 21:34, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>&gt; But all that gets them is a promisory note. You can't eat a promisory note, you<BR>&gt; can't use it to fuel your starships and you can't use it to pay someone on the<BR>&gt; next planet over _unless_ there is some trade between the two planets.<BR><BR>Or at least trade between the second planet and still other planets, <BR>not necessarily the first one in question, yes?<BR>That is, you're on planet A, playing someone from planet B in <BR>Imperial Promisory Note Credits which mean nothing on planet A <BR>(rockball?) but because planet B is part of the Imperium Trading <BR>Cooperative and trades with planets C and others that *do* recognize <BR>credits, the transaction still works (has value for both).&nbsp; <BR><BR>Rob D.<BR>- --<BR>Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net<BR><BR>'Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.'<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:03:18 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: [Fwd: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how&nbsp; pervasive is it?&nbsp; IYTU?]<BR><BR>Rob Davenport wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; OK, that's what I kind of thought, but it hadn't been spelled out in<BR>&gt; the stuff I've read.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Thats OK, I don't think it is spelled out anywhere.<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I've read bits on this list in the past and/or elsewhere that suggest<BR>&gt; various pre-Terran Confederation Earth cultures moved out into various<BR>&gt; areas of the Solomani Rim (Indian, Chinese, etc.?)&nbsp; Do you know of any<BR>&gt; sources/references for this info?<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Well , Supplement 10 lists several "Idealogical Refugees" that colonized<BR>whole worlds.<BR><BR>Aventure 5. Trillion Credit Squadron. Has an area settled by the European<BR>Space Agency. All worlds have European sounding names.<BR><BR>Alien Module 6: states that at the start of the intersteller wars, Terra only<BR>had colonies in-system, Alpha Centuri, and Barnards Star.&nbsp; The last 2 would<BR>have had only 22 years from the first interrstellar J-Drive flight to be<BR>developed.&nbsp; During the Interstellar Wars, mass emigrations took place to put<BR>Terrans on Vilani worlds as an "occupation" (upper level government and<BR>business positions).&nbsp; During this time a "Terran culture" and the Anglic<BR>language were developed.&nbsp; During the Long Night, The captured worlds started<BR>developing a local culture which varried greatly from one world to the next.<BR>&gt;From this an assumption can be made that during the emigration, cultural<BR>groups tried to stay together.&nbsp; The common language was new to most people,<BR>therefore most would be bylingual, with Anglic as a second language.&nbsp; Keeping<BR>with people that spoke the same first language would be likely.&nbsp; Therefore<BR>the local cultures that were developed cold be strongly based on former local<BR>Terran cultures.<BR><BR>MegaTraveller Alien Vol 2.:&nbsp; pg 8 members of the Solomani Confederation:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Grand United States of Quesada (Aldebaran)&nbsp; (estados Unitos Grande de<BR>Quesada) Hispanic<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Hanuman Systems (Langere) Hindu<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; New Slavic Solidarity (Magyar) Russian and European<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Reformed Dootchen Estates (Maggyar) South African (Slave states)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Third Reformed French Confederate Republic (Aldebraran)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Sulawesi/Nanfeng (1025 Canopus) Indochinese<BR>Rim Anglic is a common second language in the Solomani Rim.<BR>pg 18&nbsp; "Despite Anglic's wide reach, four out of five Confederation citizens<BR>speak another tongue as thier first language."<BR>pg 20. "Various ehtnic or national groups volunteered for these early rimward<BR>colonizations."<BR>etc., this is the book you want for info on Old earth cultures that expanded<BR>to different worlds. But may be decanonized due to being from Digest Group.<BR><BR>You might want to check out the Gurps version of the Solomani Rim (Whatever<BR>it is called)<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Yes, Cleveland has it's cultural areas, some more commonly known,<BR>&gt; others only by where various groups live in this decade (and a lot move<BR>&gt; around - out to the suburbs to be specific).&nbsp; Sure there'd be areas for<BR>&gt; more common cultural/religious groups. Hmm - could the be a "Zho-<BR>&gt; town"/"Little Zhodane" on Regina?<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>sure "Little Zhodane" to residents and Zhotown to outsiders.&nbsp; site of many<BR>fires during the frontier wars.<BR><BR>Good luck and have fun.<BR><BR>Charles<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3762<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Saturday, March 3 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3763<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is&nbsp; it?&nbsp; IYTU?<BR>Re: Explaining<BR>Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is&nbsp; it?&nbsp; IYTU?<BR>Looking For...<BR>Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>OK, this should now be working..<BR>Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)<BR>Re: [TML] Scout Brew logo...<BR>RE: Traveller - The Database (E/R)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))<BR>Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>RE: Scout Brew logo...<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Wealth (Was: Nobles and the Imperium)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:06:05 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is&nbsp; it?&nbsp; IYTU?<BR><BR>Kiri wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;I thought the K'Kree were the vegan empire??<BR><BR>No they are the Vegitarian Empire.<BR><BR>Vegan Autonomous District&nbsp; Vega subsector/Solomani Rim Controls 1 1/2<BR>subsectors<BR><BR>Humanoid minor race<BR><BR>Mentioned in Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim, Traveller Alien Module 6:<BR>Solomani, and MegaTraveller Alien Solomani &amp; Aslan.<BR><BR>There was a full article on them somewhere (Traveller Digest??)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:12:49 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Explaining<BR><BR>In a message dated 02-Mar-01 11:21:59 AM Central Standard Time, <BR>owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:<BR><BR>&gt; (I have a fair number of friends who don't speak English well who are<BR>&gt;&nbsp; always asking me to explain things.&nbsp; I've had to explain to Yutaka why<BR>&gt;&nbsp; some black people address each other with a term beginning with "n" but he<BR>&gt;&nbsp; can't, to Junko that a blowjob is not what you do to your hair after a<BR>&gt;&nbsp; shower, etc...)<BR><BR>In Sweden, I ran into a fellow who had trouble with the phrase: "First you <BR>chop tree down, then you chop it up."<BR><BR>I had trouble explaining it.<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 20:07:53 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is&nbsp; it?&nbsp; IYTU?<BR><BR>On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Charles R Hensley wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Kiri wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;I thought the K'Kree were the vegan empire??<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; No they are the Vegitarian Empire.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Vegan Autonomous District&nbsp; Vega subsector/Solomani Rim Controls 1 1/2<BR>&gt; subsectors<BR>&gt; <BR>I knew that.&nbsp; =)<BR><BR>But I live in San Francisco, where we have "vegans":&nbsp; vegetarians who<BR>think vegetarianism (which they call ovo-lacto-vegetarianism) isn't tough<BR>enough. Not only will they not eat meat or fish, they won't eat eggs or<BR>dairy products, because even though these don't require the death of an<BR>animal (most chicken eggs we eat aren't fertilized) they are the product<BR>of "animal slavery".<BR><BR>whatever.&nbsp; Anyhow, I thought the K'Kree would like them.<BR><BR>People who throw paint on fur coats (but not, I note, on the leather<BR>jackets of bikers and S/M types) are often vegans.<BR><BR>I once belonged to the Unitarian Church of SF, which is full of vegans<BR>(like, most of the youth group is vegan) and ate more vegan food than I<BR>ever again want to eat in my life.&nbsp; There are some lovely tofu-zucchini<BR>casseroles with tomato sauce out there that I might even enjoy if people<BR>didn't try to convince me that they were lasagna (which must have meat,<BR>and at least three kinds of cheese, in it.)<BR><BR>Kiri<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 21:12:16 -0800<BR>From: Clifford N Linehan &lt;cnl.rubicon@juno.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Looking For...<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:45:54 +1300 From: "Frank G. Pitt"<BR>&lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in <BR>&gt;&gt; Traveller to what can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Yes. In an Editorial in JTAS, where they explained why they wouldn't do<BR>it.<BR>&gt;&lt;grin&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I also remember one in an old White Dwarf or Dragon article.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Frankie<BR><BR>Well, a canon reference, is a canon reference. This would say that canon<BR>has ruled the "Star Wars type Light Saber" as a non-canon item in the<BR>official Traveller universe.<BR><BR>As I am shifting my view of the universe IMTU toward only what is listed<BR>in official canon. It looks like the Light Saber is out.<BR><BR>Thanks for the reference Frankie.<BR><BR><BR>Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com<BR>http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller<BR>Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.<BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 00:02:03 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:02:14 GMT<BR>&gt; From: Postmark Design Bureau &lt;postmark.design@btinternet.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; DaveShayne wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Heavy barrel Length=23cm Weight=.69Kg Price=Cr276 E= 4039joules<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Ok, I'll admit to knowing nothing about this subject, but 23cm<BR>&gt; seems to be a bit short for a 20mm sniper rifle barrel.<BR><BR>Bear in mind that the round is in fact a pistol round (albeit of rather<BR>high calibre.) The FFS rules are very precise that this weapon can<BR>have a barrel no longer than 23cm. (Barrel length being determined<BR>by the ammount of propellant behind the round not by the calibre.)<BR><BR>I personally don't know if it makes real world sense (although<BR>considering the fact that none of the rest of this design appears<BR>to make real world sense it seems likely that this doesn't either)<BR>but it conforms to all of the rules of TNE/FFS.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 18:27:23 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 2 Mar 2001, at 9:14, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; On 1 Mar 2001, at 16:03, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Your average sector is about 450 worlds.&nbsp; Give it 1k per world and that's<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 10-20 megabytes for the entire imperium.&nbsp; That's what I call a 'tiny<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; database'.&nbsp; I don't know what H&amp;E produces, but I doubt it's more than 1k<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; per world.<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; A friend of mine is an Oracle man. I don't think he thinks in units that<BR>&gt; &gt; small.&nbsp; :)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Heh.&nbsp; Certainly not my experience with Oracle.&nbsp; Anything under a gig is a tiny<BR>&gt; database (1-10 gigs is merely small).<BR><BR>Yep. They had an 'out of memory' error the other day. First he gave it another <BR>4gigs (as far as anyone could tell it shouldn't have been out of memory). <BR>Nothing. Gave it another 10gigs. Nothing. Gave it another 40gigs. Went fine, <BR>and they even got some of it back.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:44:53 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: OK, this should now be working..<BR><BR>Penguins!!&nbsp; All around me!!<BR><BR>Beats typing test again.&nbsp; :)<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 19:21:27 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)<BR><BR>On 2 Mar 2001, at 15:59, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Okay, lets start with the basics. Identifying entities and relationships<BR>&gt; &gt; (assuming we are going to use a RDBMS, though I think this might suit an<BR>&gt; &gt; OODBMS better).<BR><BR>&gt; Well, OO in that the DB we use needs to support BLOBS for maps and suchlike.<BR><BR>My tutors keep going on about OODBMS as opposed to RDBMS as the <BR>next "thing" in databases. The only difference I can see is that an OO <BR>model can handle M:N relationships without a bridging entity. Me, I don't <BR>understand the real advantage.<BR><BR>&gt; Looks 'bout right. My oly reservation was the System &lt;-&gt; &lt;something&gt; <BR>&gt; I'll have to look, I'm not sure if any of the various world generation <BR>&gt; systems allow naked stars. First In does not, but it's been a while <BR>&gt; since I used any of the others.<BR><BR>How about changing Worlds/GasGiants/PlanetoidBelts into SystemBodies <BR>and making the System &lt;-&gt; SystemBodies 1:M compulsory and then <BR>defining just what sub catergory the SystemBody falls into.<BR><BR>Also, thinking about it, Subsector could be dropped as an entity and turned <BR>into an attribute of System.<BR><BR>So, unless anybody has any strong objections to the model, I'll move on to <BR>determining attributes for the entities.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 01:55:40 -0500<BR>From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" &lt;caraig@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [TML] Scout Brew logo...<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:01:00 -0800<BR>&gt;From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Scout Brew logo...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)<BR><BR>I think it's terriffic. =) The belly-up eight-legged whatever-it-is on the <BR>Scout emblem was a nice touch. ;)<BR><BR>Cheers<BR><BR><BR>- ---<BR>==============================================================<BR>Jonathan McDermott&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; "Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -Steve Wozniak<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:23:29 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller - The Database (E/R)<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; My tutors keep going on about OODBMS as opposed to RDBMS as the<BR>&gt; next "thing" in databases. The only difference I can see is that an OO<BR>&gt; model can handle M:N relationships without a bridging entity. Me, I don't<BR>&gt; understand the real advantage.<BR><BR>The advantage is that you don't have to waste time mapping objects into and<BR>from tables, and it better models reality than a relational database does.<BR><BR>Relational databases have always been about trying to get better performance<BR>from limited hardware, they were a technology designed to get around the<BR>limitations of the technology at the time. They've never been a very good<BR>model for designing software around.<BR><BR>Personally, I always prefered network databases, but like DOS and the IBM PC<BR>relational databases pretty much took over the market for no good reason<BR>other than that IBM chose to implement one, and everyone else copied it.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 14:24:21 +0000<BR>From: Paul Campbell &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>On Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 01:24:58PM -0000, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; Okay, trying to pull all this&nbsp; programming&nbsp; lark&nbsp; back&nbsp; onto&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; topic for which *this* list exists (ie. Traveller)&nbsp; I'd&nbsp; like&nbsp; to<BR>&gt; make the following proposal:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; There are a number of software projects for Traveller&nbsp; (both&nbsp; old<BR>&gt; and new) that requires a&nbsp; database&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; Traveller&nbsp; Universe.<BR>&gt; There are drill-down mappers (like Galactic),&nbsp; there&nbsp; are&nbsp; system<BR>&gt; generators (like Heaven&amp;Earth), there are spreadsheets to analyse<BR>&gt; the Imperial budget, and it sounds like there is&nbsp; more&nbsp; than&nbsp; one<BR>&gt; person working on Traveller trading programs.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Each of these programs uses its own proprietary file&nbsp; structures.<BR>&gt; Yet the core data *structure* is logically the same ...&nbsp; sectors,<BR>&gt; subsectors, hexes, UPP/UWP, trade codes, etc.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; What I'd like to propose is that future databases be built&nbsp; to&nbsp; a<BR>&gt; common database design, which other programs can&nbsp; call&nbsp; from&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; add to.&nbsp; People would still be free to write their own&nbsp; programs,<BR>&gt; but with a central point for database&nbsp; design&nbsp; changes.&nbsp; So&nbsp; when<BR>&gt; you write a Traveller program it can share data&nbsp; with&nbsp; any&nbsp; other<BR>&gt; Traveller programs you have (without having&nbsp; to&nbsp; reinvent&nbsp; import<BR>&gt; and export routines every time, and store the data redundantly in<BR>&gt; multiple formats).<BR>[ Snip ]<BR><BR>This is exactly what I've been working on (off and on) as part of Tod<BR>Glenn's grandsurvey.com site.<BR><BR>Check out the latest version:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; http://www.grandsurvey.com/pcampbell/gs-db-0.0.2.tar.gz<BR><BR>(WinZip *can* cope with this file format)<BR><BR>Here is the README file for it:<BR><BR>GrandSurvey Database (gs-db)<BR><BR>9-January-2001:<BR><BR>The GrandSurvey Database is to be the central repository for the<BR>GrandSurvey Project.&nbsp; This project, gs-db, is currently working to<BR>revise the database structure, before moving on to developing a number<BR>of utilities to interface with it.<BR><BR>Suggestions for Utilities:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * Surveyor - populates the database by implementing the WBH<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; rules.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * Web Interface - View the database as graphical maps, similar<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to the last prototype at<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; http://www.grandsurvey.com/pcampbell/ (as at 26-11-2000)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * H&amp;E Gateway - Import and Export to Stuart Ferris' Heaven and<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Earth program<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * XML Gateway - Import and Export to Don McKinney's Traveller<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; XML DTD, that I heard he was working on<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * ? Gateway - Michael Koehne mentioned a Survey script as part<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; of his Games::Traveller module<BR><BR>If you have any other ideas that you would like to see let us know.<BR><BR>This database structure is currently in an early design stage just<BR>now.&nbsp; I am looking to support worlds generated using the World<BR>Builders Handbook.&nbsp; Although I will be adding a few extra twists to<BR>help model the data more flexibly.<BR><BR>Documentation of the database structures are in the docs/ directory.<BR>A script to create the tables for the database as it stands now is in<BR>create.sql, this script is for MySQL.&nbsp; The star_data.csv file is<BR>used to populate the gs_star_data table, which details characteristics<BR>for different star types.<BR><BR>To recreate create.sql and object_type_data.csv run the following<BR>command from the gs-db root directory:<BR><BR>$ perl/extract_sql_ddl.pl docs/sql/[a-z]* --objects<BR><BR>Additional options '-v' or '-v -v' give some indication of progress,<BR>not that it takes more than a second.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24<BR>http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net<BR>jupiter: 2:20pm up 53 days, 4:00, 6 users, load average: 0.41, 0.45, 0.35<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 12:58:19 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Which makes me wonder, could ale (or wine or hard liquor) be produced in<BR>&gt; micro-gravity?&nbsp; It's easy enough to build old-fashioned wooden barrels<BR>&gt; and the other hardware into space, but would the absence of gravity have<BR>&gt; an effect on the outcome?&nbsp; I know zilch about brewing.<BR><BR>Fermentation in zero-gee has long been discussed, because that's<BR>essentially how a number of anti-biotics are produced.<BR><BR>The lack of gravity eliminates the tendency of the yeast to "settle",<BR>as well as eliminates problems with the liquid stratifying. <BR><BR>You *will* have to "stir" the liquid to keep nutrients evenly<BR>dispersed. And you'll have either filter the hell out of it, or<BR>centrifuge it to get the sediment out. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:09:28 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; On 2 Mar 2001, at 15:59, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; How about changing Worlds/GasGiants/PlanetoidBelts into SystemBodies <BR>&gt; and making the System &lt;-&gt; SystemBodies 1:M compulsory and then <BR>&gt; defining just what sub catergory the SystemBody falls into.<BR><BR>Keep in mind that while I don't know of any such instance in Traveller,<BR>it should be possible to have a star with no SystemBodies.<BR><BR>Likewise, don't forget that you can have up to *4* stars. The 4 star<BR>version is (as I recall) always a close binary pair orbiting another<BR>close binary pair. The 3 star version can be two stars orbiting a<BR>primary, a pair of stars orbiting each other with their center of mass<BR>orbiting the primary, or a pair of stars orbiting each other with a<BR>third star orbiting their COM.<BR><BR>So "primary/secondary/tertiary" won't cut it.<BR><BR>&gt; Also, thinking about it, Subsector could be dropped as an entity and turned <BR>&gt; into an attribute of System.<BR><BR>Except that things like maps, especially of things like jump routes and<BR>trade routes might be better stored at that level.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:50:38 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>Peter Newman writes:<BR>&gt;Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;No law requires them to sell you anything if they don't want to. And if<BR>&gt;&gt;you can't pay them with something they want, they won't want to.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Are you trying to tell me that when you walk into a store with Imperial<BR>&gt;Credits and the shopkeeper refuses to accept them that the Imperial<BR>&gt;government is going to let them get away with it?<BR><BR>The question is moot, because the conditions doesn't exist. There IS trade<BR>between the planets of the Imperium and consequently people CAN buy stuff they<BR>want with Imperial credits.<BR><BR>&gt;That sort of thing was directly responsible for the fall of the Rule of Man<BR>&gt;and the Long Night. Do you honestly think that the Third Imperium is going<BR>&gt;to allow it?<BR><BR>I'm quite sure the Imperium couldn't care less if Eneri Q. Public accepts Crimps<BR>or not. They might get shirty if a sector branch of an Imperial bank refused to<BR>honor a draft.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;The only way the Imperium can get anything useful from a world is to spend<BR>&gt;&gt;those credits on stuff that can be physically lifted off the planetary<BR>&gt;&gt;surface and moved elsewhere.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The most expensive goods the Imperium uses are probably capital class<BR>&gt;starships. Canon establishes that many types of starships are built at<BR>&gt;many locations. <BR><BR>What's your point? If that isn't an example of the Imperium taking its taxes<BR>out in kind then I don't know what is.<BR><BR>&gt;The way I see it the Imperium demands that people accept Imperial credits.<BR>&gt;When they want something they buy it on location, hire someone to deliver it,<BR>&gt;or transport it themselves in their own (typically military) starships that<BR>&gt;they purchased using Imperial Credits or which they had built by yard crew<BR>&gt;paid in Imperial credits.<BR><BR>In other words, they buy goods and transport them off-world. Just as I said.<BR><BR>&gt;The Imperial credit is a symbol of the idea of the Imperium. When you reject<BR>&gt;the credit you are rejecting the Imperium. Yes, of course, the Imperial credit<BR>&gt;is intrinsically nothing more than pretty extruded plastic with cunning anti<BR>&gt;counterfeiting measures but the common acceptance of the Imperial credit is<BR>&gt;one of the key reasons for the creation of the Imperium in the first place (to<BR>&gt;promote trade, which common currencies do).<BR><BR>And that trade is how the wealth is transferred from planet to planet. The<BR>exchange of Crimps is merely a way to keep score. A tally. Promisory notes.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;But all that gets them is a promisory note. You can't eat a promisory note,<BR>&gt;&gt;you can't use it to fuel your starships and you can't use it to pay someone<BR>&gt;&gt;on the next planet over _unless_ there is some trade between the two planets.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;If the next planet over will not accept your Imperial credits they are saying<BR>&gt;that they do not believe that the Imperium is good for the debt. <BR><BR>And if they can't use those credit to buy stuff on another planet then the<BR>Imperium is not good for the debt. You're arguing in circles. The reason people<BR>accept Crimps is precisely because they know they CAN buy stuff from other<BR>worlds with it. If they couldn't, they wouldn't accept them.<BR><BR>&gt;For a member world to say that is clearly rebellious. There is a very good<BR>&gt;reason why the Imperial navy has weapons of mass destruction and it is not<BR>&gt;the Zhodani. <BR>&gt;Read your MT.<BR><BR>In the interest of keeping this civil I'll refrain from replying to this the<BR>way it so richly deserves.<BR><BR><BR>And Rob Davenport writes:<BR>&gt;On 2 Mar 01, at 21:34, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;But all that gets them is a promisory note. You can't eat a promisory note,<BR>&gt;&gt;you can't use it to fuel your starships and you can't use it to pay someone<BR>&gt;&gt;on the next planet over _unless_ there is some trade between the two planets.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;Or at least trade between the second planet and still other planets, <BR>&gt;not necessarily the first one in question, yes?<BR><BR>Yes, yes. I was trying to keep it simple.<BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 13:43:16 -0800<BR>From: Jesse DeGraff &lt;jdegraff@pacbell.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Scout Brew logo...<BR><BR>ROFLMAO!!!!!!!&nbsp; Oh, THAT'S gonna' have to go somewhere!&nbsp; T-shirt'd be nice,<BR>and patches for sure&nbsp; since my Mom's got an embroidery machine now :DD&nbsp; More<BR>as that develops.<BR><BR>And no, SJG shouldn't have a problem with that.&nbsp; It's a derivative, spoof<BR>design.<BR><BR>Private e-mail heading your way Mark.<BR><BR>Jesse<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Mark F. Cook<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 3:01 PM<BR>&gt; To: Traveller Mail List<BR>&gt; Subject: Scout Brew logo...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Mark C.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 09:22:00 +1100<BR>From: "Jeffrey Malone" &lt;nparker1971@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Not being much of a programmer, I will however weigh into the issue of data<BR>formats.&nbsp; In particular, the issue of stellar coordinate data.&nbsp; Rather than<BR>using Sector:Sub-Sector:Position within Sector format, is there any merit in<BR>using the Ring:Ray format?<BR><BR>As I see it, there are a few (potential) advantages here:<BR><BR>1 - each system has a unique numerical coordinate (useful for measurement of<BR>distances and travel times beyond the sub-sector/sector level).<BR><BR>2 - That sector/subsector names can be assigned on the basis of a range of<BR>Ring:Ray values (say, qualified with an Alliegance code).&nbsp; By contrast, if<BR>the DB is using Sector (SectorName) as the basis of the coordinate system,<BR>then this would seem to 'privilege' one particular Alleigance's cartographic<BR>system over others (no, I am not a post-modernist).<BR><BR>3 - That different Alliegance's cartographic systems do not necessarily<BR>coincide.&nbsp; I know it says (somewhere?&nbsp; the old supplements 8 and 11 come to<BR>mind) that the sector and sub-sector, as units of interstellar cartography,<BR>are fairly widely accepted (which seems to imply that they may be Vilani in<BR>origin).&nbsp; However, it seems to be an unspoken assumption that different<BR>Alliegance's accept the same cartographic (not political) boundaries.&nbsp; This<BR>might make sense for Vilani derived Alleigances, but it doesn't make much<BR>sense for the others.&nbsp; If you employ Ring:Ray as the basis of the coordinate<BR>system, then sector boundaries recognised by different alliegances do not<BR>necessarily have to coincide (even if they do accept sectors and sub-sectors<BR>as the units of measure for interstellar space).<BR><BR>J.M.M.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:38:06 +0000<BR>From: Paul Campbell &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>On Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 09:22:00AM +1100, Jeffrey Malone wrote:<BR>&gt; Not being much of a programmer, I will however weigh into the issue of data<BR>&gt; formats.&nbsp; In particular, the issue of stellar coordinate data.&nbsp; Rather than<BR>&gt; using Sector:Sub-Sector:Position within Sector format, is there any merit in<BR>&gt; using the Ring:Ray format?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; As I see it, there are a few (potential) advantages here:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 1 - each system has a unique numerical coordinate (useful for measurement of<BR>&gt; distances and travel times beyond the sub-sector/sector level).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 2 - That sector/subsector names can be assigned on the basis of a range of<BR>&gt; Ring:Ray values (say, qualified with an Alliegance code).&nbsp; By contrast, if<BR>&gt; the DB is using Sector (SectorName) as the basis of the coordinate system,<BR>&gt; then this would seem to 'privilege' one particular Alleigance's cartographic<BR>&gt; system over others (no, I am not a post-modernist).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 3 - That different Alliegance's cartographic systems do not necessarily<BR>&gt; coincide.&nbsp; I know it says (somewhere?&nbsp; the old supplements 8 and 11 come to<BR>&gt; mind) that the sector and sub-sector, as units of interstellar cartography,<BR>&gt; are fairly widely accepted (which seems to imply that they may be Vilani in<BR>&gt; origin).&nbsp; However, it seems to be an unspoken assumption that different<BR>&gt; Alliegance's accept the same cartographic (not political) boundaries.&nbsp; This<BR>&gt; might make sense for Vilani derived Alleigances, but it doesn't make much<BR>&gt; sense for the others.&nbsp; If you employ Ring:Ray as the basis of the coordinate<BR>&gt; system, then sector boundaries recognised by different alliegances do not<BR>&gt; necessarily have to coincide (even if they do accept sectors and sub-sectors<BR>&gt; as the units of measure for interstellar space).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; J.M.M.<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>Storing this in the database shouldn't prove a problem.&nbsp; Sectors would<BR>have an origination point and possibly a width/height or even angle<BR>value for your non-canon cartographic systems.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24<BR>http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net<BR>jupiter: 10:35pm up 53 days, 12:15, 5 users, load average: 0.39, 0.69, 0.51<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 21:46:46 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Wealth (Was: Nobles and the Imperium)<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;If people will accept your money for their credits you get what you<BR>want.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; But if people can't buy something they want for your money, they won't<BR>&gt;&gt; accept it. And if no one is carting goods from your planet to theirs,<BR>they<BR>&gt;&gt; can't buy anything for your money.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;More to the point, planets can't mint their own CrI anyway.&nbsp; Unless the<BR>planet<BR>&gt;is selling stuff, it won't have any credits to buy things with.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The net effect is that, directly or indirectly, the Imperium receives _all_<BR>&gt;taxes as material, because the only way to acquire CrI is to get them from<BR>&gt;someone who has them or can mint them, and they're only minted by the<BR>&gt;imperium; thus, in the end CrI represent sales to the Imperium.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Note that in FT at least, some worlds (high population, poor starport) can<BR>&gt;have total trade which is lower than their theoretical tax burden.&nbsp; It's<BR>&gt;anyone's guess just how they pay their taxes.<BR><BR>In services. As said above you don't have to transport services, so perhaps<BR>they pay their taxes by servicing ships belonging to the IN and IISS.<BR><BR>As Information. Which often has value and can be transported by XBoat or<BR>courier.<BR><BR>As promissory notes. In other words they have a deficit.<BR><BR>As goods that leave the planet but are not counted as trade, such as goods<BR>and services sold to the IN. Likewise goods sold to ships as commissary<BR>goods, which would not count as trade, but might still be a substantial<BR>amount of money.<BR><BR>Perhaps they can offset their taxes by contributing land to the Imperium, or<BR>the Emperor in lieu of money. The Emperor can then give said land as fiefs<BR>to Imperial Nobles. Obviously eventually you run out of land, so this is a<BR>short term solution.<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3763<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sunday, March 4 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3764<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>Re: Scout Brew logo...<BR>Re: [TML] Scout Brew logo...<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Fractal hex coordinate system<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>RE: Traveller software project<BR>RE: Traveller software project<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 20:43:52 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>OK, Bill.&nbsp; Here's my 2nd pass as a piece of nose-art for your Beowulf.<BR><BR>http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/ship_logo/<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 20:50:53 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Scout Brew logo...<BR><BR>At 09:18 PM 3/2/01 -0800, Doug Berry wrote:<BR>&gt;At 03:01 PM 03/02/01 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mark, I'm still unable to post to thelist, but you can claim this as a<BR>&gt;keyboard kill on a brand new keyboard.<BR><BR>Doug, I know you have TML access restored. Nevertheless, I'm forwarding<BR>this letter *to* the list so that I get my KBK properly recognized and entered<BR>the the "Dead Keyboard Hall of Fame". :^)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 20:56:56 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [TML] Scout Brew logo...<BR><BR>Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott &lt;caraig@mindspring.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:01:00 -0800<BR>&gt; &gt;From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Subject: Scout Brew logo...<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I think it's terriffic. =) The belly-up eight-legged whatever-it-is on the<BR>&gt;Scout emblem was a nice touch. ;)<BR><BR>"eight-legged whatever-it-is"?!?&nbsp; My dear boy, that's the scouts own,<BR>beloved PONI from the IISS Communications branch emblem.<BR><BR>Apparently, scout brew affects them the same way it affects scouts! :^)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:06:46 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Jeffrey Malone wrote:<BR>&gt; Not being much of a programmer, I will however weigh into the issue<BR>&gt; of data formats.&nbsp; In particular, the issue of stellar coordinate<BR>&gt; data.&nbsp; Rather than using Sector:Sub-Sector:Position within Sector<BR>&gt; format, is there any merit in using the Ring:Ray format?<BR><BR>&nbsp; What's the Ring:Ray format?&nbsp; Something published?&nbsp; It sounds vaguely<BR>like a polar coordinate system.&nbsp; If so, where is the (0,0) point?<BR>Somewhere allegiance-independent I hope?<BR><BR>&nbsp; Of course, you would have to do some surprisingly messy coordinate<BR>transformations to do anything useful with it, such as determining<BR>distance between two systems.&nbsp; And if the centre is less than a few<BR>hundred parsecs away, your 'sectors' have varying shapes depending on<BR>orientation and distance with respect to that centre.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:32:32 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Fractal hex coordinate system<BR><BR>&nbsp; If you really want to make a weird but consistent coordinate system,<BR>here's one.&nbsp; It has spurious advantages: it is consistent in that the<BR>leftmost digits are always more significant than digits to the right,<BR>it comprises a single number instead of a pair of numbers, and it can<BR>be consistently extended to cover arbitrarily large regions simply by<BR>adding more digits to the left.<BR><BR>&nbsp; It is also totally unusable :)<BR><BR>&nbsp; Start with a chosen centre hex.&nbsp; Number it "0".&nbsp; Number the hexes<BR>around it using the digits 1-6.&nbsp; They form a 'hexagon' of 7 hexes.<BR>Now, you can tile 7 such hexagons into a bigger region of 49 hexes.<BR>As before, number the centre one "0" and the ones around it "1" to<BR>"6".<BR><BR>&nbsp; You can specify any given hex in this region by using the first<BR>digit to indicate which 7-hex group it is in, and the second digit to<BR>indicate the hex within that group.<BR><BR>&nbsp; These 49-hex groups tile into groups of 343, and you just add<BR>another digit to specify which 49-hex group you are talking about.<BR>Continue ad nauseum or until your brain explodes trying to picture<BR>what these groups look like :)<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; It would have to be a rather alien society indeed that used such<BR>coordinates.&nbsp; Obviously you would want to base it on the centre of<BR>mass of the galaxy as point "0" or some such similar arrangement.&nbsp; For<BR>something as small as the Imperium you would probably omit the first<BR>few digits for brevity since they would be constant across the whole<BR>region.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Just my contribution to the Traveller database mapping conventions<BR>discussion :)<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 06:48:10 +0000<BR>From: Paul Campbell &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>On Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:06:46PM +1100, Timothy Little wrote:<BR>&gt; Jeffrey Malone wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Not being much of a programmer, I will however weigh into the issue<BR>&gt; &gt; of data formats.&nbsp; In particular, the issue of stellar coordinate<BR>&gt; &gt; data.&nbsp; Rather than using Sector:Sub-Sector:Position within Sector<BR>&gt; &gt; format, is there any merit in using the Ring:Ray format?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; What's the Ring:Ray format?&nbsp; Something published?&nbsp; It sounds vaguely<BR>&gt; like a polar coordinate system.&nbsp; If so, where is the (0,0) point?<BR>&gt; Somewhere allegiance-independent I hope?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Of course, you would have to do some surprisingly messy coordinate<BR>&gt; transformations to do anything useful with it, such as determining<BR>&gt; distance between two systems.&nbsp; And if the centre is less than a few<BR>&gt; hundred parsecs away, your 'sectors' have varying shapes depending on<BR>&gt; orientation and distance with respect to that centre.<BR><BR>I assumed Jeffrey meant numbering the hex rows and columns within each<BR>sector using the same scale from a universal 0,0 point.&nbsp; The Ring<BR>would be relative to the galactic core and the Ray would be from a<BR>'Greenwich'-like hex column.<BR><BR>It would, I assume, only be used internally by the database and<BR>attendant utilities, which would translate it into the standard hex<BR>locations.&nbsp; Using a system like this also makes it easier to calculate<BR>distances that cross sector borders.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24<BR>http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net<BR>jupiter: 6:42am up 53 days, 20:22, 5 users, load average: 0.13, 0.09, 0.03<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 18:53:27 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>&gt; I assumed Jeffrey meant numbering the hex rows and columns within each<BR>&gt; sector using the same scale from a universal 0,0 point.&nbsp; The Ring<BR>&gt; would be relative to the galactic core and the Ray would be from a<BR>&gt; 'Greenwich'-like hex column.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Oh, if it's just going to be an internal system there are much more<BR>convenient coordinates.&nbsp; Pick any (0,0) point and use U/V coordinates<BR>for example, where the V-axis is a vertical line of hexes and the<BR>U-axis is a sloping line of hexes.<BR><BR>&nbsp; That way you don't need to do fiddly special-case adjustments based<BR>on the fact that the X/Y hex grid has "wiggly" lines.&nbsp; It also allows<BR>you to deal with much more manageable numbers, like +-100 in X/U<BR>instead of about 9900 to 10100 in 'ring' and similarly large numbers<BR>in 'ray'.<BR><BR>&nbsp; As described, it wouldn't really be a polar coordinate system of<BR>course; just a wiggly hex-grid approximation to a cartesian<BR>approximation to a polar coordinate system.&nbsp; I'd rather use a<BR>coordinate system that actually makes use of the symmetries of the<BR>underlying hex grid.<BR><BR>&nbsp; For example, in the existing system (or any extension thereof), the<BR>hex with (X+1,Y) coordinates is sometimes above, sometimes below, the<BR>hex with coordinates (X,Y).&nbsp; Worse still, sometimes (X+1,Y+1) is<BR>adjacent to (X,Y) and sometimes disconnected.&nbsp; I'm sure you can see<BR>the problems associated with this.<BR>&nbsp; The U,V coordinates don't have this problem.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; One question: in Traveller maps, is the galactic center exactly in<BR>line with the hex grid?&nbsp; If so, *which* line?&nbsp; Capital?<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:14:32 +1100<BR>From: "Jeffrey Malone" &lt;nparker1971@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>As per the library data entry in Supplement 8:<BR><BR>The ring passing through Reference/Capital is the 10,000th ring (out from<BR>the galatic core).&nbsp; The ray passing through Reference is the first ray.<BR>This increases trailing, and decreases spinward.&nbsp; Hence, the coordinate for<BR>Regina in the Spinward Marches is Ring 9930/Ray 62773 (circumfrance of the<BR>ring through Reference is 62,832 parsecs, so subtract from this when moving<BR>spinward).<BR><BR>Whilst this is a polar system, in practice for Known Space it approximates a<BR>cartesian system.&nbsp; I did the calcs on the distortion on the furthest<BR>boundaries of Known Space of the difference between polar and cartesian<BR>coordinates.&nbsp; By memory (I did this back in 1983 when I first got Sup 8 as a<BR>LBB) the amount of distortion by the time you get to Far Frontiers (taking<BR>the baseline ray from Reference) was on the order of 0.4%.<BR><BR>J.M.M.<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 6:53 PM<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; I assumed Jeffrey meant numbering the hex rows and columns within each<BR>&gt; &gt; sector using the same scale from a universal 0,0 point.&nbsp; The Ring<BR>&gt; &gt; would be relative to the galactic core and the Ray would be from a<BR>&gt; &gt; 'Greenwich'-like hex column.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Oh, if it's just going to be an internal system there are much more<BR>&gt; convenient coordinates.&nbsp; Pick any (0,0) point and use U/V coordinates<BR>&gt; for example, where the V-axis is a vertical line of hexes and the<BR>&gt; U-axis is a sloping line of hexes.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; That way you don't need to do fiddly special-case adjustments based<BR>&gt; on the fact that the X/Y hex grid has "wiggly" lines.&nbsp; It also allows<BR>&gt; you to deal with much more manageable numbers, like +-100 in X/U<BR>&gt; instead of about 9900 to 10100 in 'ring' and similarly large numbers<BR>&gt; in 'ray'.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; As described, it wouldn't really be a polar coordinate system of<BR>&gt; course; just a wiggly hex-grid approximation to a cartesian<BR>&gt; approximation to a polar coordinate system.&nbsp; I'd rather use a<BR>&gt; coordinate system that actually makes use of the symmetries of the<BR>&gt; underlying hex grid.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; For example, in the existing system (or any extension thereof), the<BR>&gt; hex with (X+1,Y) coordinates is sometimes above, sometimes below, the<BR>&gt; hex with coordinates (X,Y).&nbsp; Worse still, sometimes (X+1,Y+1) is<BR>&gt; adjacent to (X,Y) and sometimes disconnected.&nbsp; I'm sure you can see<BR>&gt; the problems associated with this.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The U,V coordinates don't have this problem.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; One question: in Traveller maps, is the galactic center exactly in<BR>&gt; line with the hex grid?&nbsp; If so, *which* line?&nbsp; Capital?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so-<BR>kk--<BR>&gt; Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:37:09 -0600<BR>From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>At 04:06 PM 3/4/2001 +1100, Tim Little wrote:<BR>&gt;Jeffrey Malone wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Not being much of a programmer, I will however weigh into the issue<BR>&gt; &gt; of data formats.&nbsp; In particular, the issue of stellar coordinate<BR>&gt; &gt; data.&nbsp; Rather than using Sector:Sub-Sector:Position within Sector<BR>&gt; &gt; format, is there any merit in using the Ring:Ray format?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; What's the Ring:Ray format?&nbsp; Something published?&nbsp; It sounds vaguely<BR>&gt;like a polar coordinate system.&nbsp; If so, where is the (0,0) point?<BR>&gt;Somewhere allegiance-independent I hope?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Of course, you would have to do some surprisingly messy coordinate<BR>&gt;transformations to do anything useful with it, such as determining<BR>&gt;distance between two systems.&nbsp; And if the centre is less than a few<BR>&gt;hundred parsecs away, your 'sectors' have varying shapes depending on<BR>&gt;orientation and distance with respect to that centre.<BR><BR>The system he describes was originally published in Supplement 8: Library <BR>Data A-M under Astrography.&nbsp; Supposedly Reference (Core 0140) lies on the <BR>10,000th ring from the core of the galaxy, and is the 0 point for the <BR>ray.&nbsp; This ring is 62,833 parsecs in circumference, so measuring spinward <BR>uses a subtraction from 62,833 and trailing adds to 0.&nbsp; Using this system, <BR>here are a few examples of stellar coordinates:<BR><BR>System (Sector coord)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ring/Ray<BR>Reverence (Core 0140)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 10000/0<BR>Regina (Spinward Marches 1910)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 9930/62723<BR>Vland (Vland 1717)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 9937/62817<BR>Capital (Core 2118)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 9978/20<BR>Terra (Solomani Rim&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 10108/17<BR><BR>Jimmy Simpson<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>"The avalanche has already started.<BR>It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:58:32 +1030<BR>From: htp &lt;htp@metropolis.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 20010228.1344, "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Computing *isn't* some sort&nbsp; of&nbsp; modern&nbsp; religion&nbsp; who's&nbsp; secrets<BR>&gt;should only be revealed to&nbsp; the&nbsp; privileged&nbsp; few&nbsp; who&nbsp; can&nbsp; prove<BR>&gt;themselves&nbsp; worthy!&nbsp; Anything&nbsp; (including&nbsp; VB)&nbsp; that&nbsp;&nbsp; opens&nbsp;&nbsp; up<BR>&gt;computing to the masses is a *good* thing.<BR><BR>Would you consider _anything_ that opens up _brain-surgery_ to the masses <BR>to be a *good* thing also?<BR><BR>I think not.&nbsp; No _sane_ person would.<BR><BR>Licensing is an instrument designed by society to minimise the damage <BR>that individuals can do.&nbsp; Doctors are licensed, drivers are licensed, <BR>teachers are licensed...&nbsp; If _anyone_ was allowed to practice medicine, <BR>public health would be in danger.&nbsp; If _anyone_ was allowed to drive cars, <BR>the roads would be a death-trap.&nbsp; If _anyone_ was allowed to teach, our <BR>civilisation's future would be doomed.<BR><BR>The new programmers of today will grow up to be, surprise, surprise, the <BR>"professional" programmers of tomorrow.&nbsp; If the environment in which <BR>their learning takes place encourages short-cuts, fragile code, the use <BR>of proprietary software, and exclusive programming techniques which <BR>prohibit portability of code, then the industry is completely screwed.<BR><BR>VB is making that miserable future a reality.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;Yes, there will be&nbsp; a<BR>&gt;lot more third-rate programs flying about, but many&nbsp; more&nbsp; people<BR>&gt;than now will be empowered ...<BR><BR>Empowered to write horrible, non-portable code?&nbsp; How can that be good for <BR>society???&nbsp; Those that actually use VB to write _good_ code would have <BR>almost certainly written that code (in the absence of VB) using a more <BR>mature language anyway.<BR><BR>Fine, if you're under 15, use VB.&nbsp; But if you've survived puberty, then <BR>you should really lock away your VB stuff in your closet with your <BR>Britney Spears posters and join the grown-ups.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;Speaking&nbsp; as&nbsp; a&nbsp; professional<BR>&gt;programmer I think your ivory tower viewpoint does our profession<BR>&gt;a dis-service.<BR><BR>I have high standards and care about the future of information <BR>technology.&nbsp; If that position places me in an ivory tower, then so be it. <BR>The view is superb, and the door is always open...<BR><BR>Henry.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 10:34:43 +0000<BR>From: Paul Campbell &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>On Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 06:53:27PM +1100, Timothy Little wrote:<BR>&gt; Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; I assumed Jeffrey meant numbering the hex rows and columns within each<BR>&gt; &gt; sector using the same scale from a universal 0,0 point.&nbsp; The Ring<BR>&gt; &gt; would be relative to the galactic core and the Ray would be from a<BR>&gt; &gt; 'Greenwich'-like hex column.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Oh, if it's just going to be an internal system there are much more<BR>&gt; convenient coordinates.&nbsp; Pick any (0,0) point and use U/V coordinates<BR>&gt; for example, where the V-axis is a vertical line of hexes and the<BR>&gt; U-axis is a sloping line of hexes.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; That way you don't need to do fiddly special-case adjustments based<BR>&gt; on the fact that the X/Y hex grid has "wiggly" lines.&nbsp; It also allows<BR>&gt; you to deal with much more manageable numbers, like +-100 in X/U<BR>&gt; instead of about 9900 to 10100 in 'ring' and similarly large numbers<BR>&gt; in 'ray'.<BR><BR>Never thought about doing it this way.&nbsp; Plotting from this system onto<BR>a standard hex grid should be easy enough.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; As described, it wouldn't really be a polar coordinate system of<BR>&gt; course; just a wiggly hex-grid approximation to a cartesian<BR>&gt; approximation to a polar coordinate system.&nbsp; I'd rather use a<BR>&gt; coordinate system that actually makes use of the symmetries of the<BR>&gt; underlying hex grid.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; For example, in the existing system (or any extension thereof), the<BR>&gt; hex with (X+1,Y) coordinates is sometimes above, sometimes below, the<BR>&gt; hex with coordinates (X,Y).&nbsp; Worse still, sometimes (X+1,Y+1) is<BR>&gt; adjacent to (X,Y) and sometimes disconnected.&nbsp; I'm sure you can see<BR>&gt; the problems associated with this.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The U,V coordinates don't have this problem.<BR><BR>Which would also make 'shortest-path' routines, as such-like, much<BR>easier I suspect.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24<BR>http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net<BR>jupiter: 10:31am up 54 days, 11 min, 4 users, load average: 0.06, 0.11, 0.09<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:22:23 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>&gt; Never thought about doing it this way.&nbsp; Plotting from this system onto<BR>&gt; a standard hex grid should be easy enough.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Yes, converting is relatively easy.&nbsp; X = U, Y = V + U/2 (round up or<BR>down depending on the phase of "wiggle" in the X/Y coordinate system)<BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The U,V coordinates don't have this problem.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Which would also make 'shortest-path' routines, as such-like, much<BR>&gt; easier I suspect.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Yes, so much so that in my own programs, I always convert X/Y<BR>coordinates to U/V coordinates to generate such paths.&nbsp; Efficient path<BR>finding algorithms are hard enough to implement nicely without having<BR>odd/even tests every second line.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 21:52:07 +1030<BR>From: htp &lt;htp@metropolis.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>On 20010228.1759, "Stuart Ferris" &lt;stuart.ferris@virgin.net&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;It seems to be an industry trend to slag off VB and if your a professional<BR>&gt;programmer you've simply got to dislke VB.<BR><BR>Ever spent a nano-second trying to work out _why_ professional <BR>programmers dislike VB?&nbsp; Could it be (shock, horror!) that there are <BR>_very_good_reasons_ why?<BR><BR><BR>&gt;To be honest the thoughtful and coherent way you put forward your argument<BR>&gt;isn't going to change my opinion.<BR><BR>I don't think any thoughtful and coherent argument could change your <BR>opinion.&nbsp; You seem to have errected a Wall of Force, through which logic <BR>cannot penetrate.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;Any programming language is likely to have good programmers and bad<BR>&gt;programmers. I don't mean to be insulting,<BR><BR>Actually, you do.&nbsp; Perhaps your grasp of English is (also) somewhat <BR>tenuous?<BR><BR><BR>&gt;but if you program like you form<BR>&gt;the basis of an argument then I take it you fall into the latter catagory.<BR><BR>I classify myself as an "average" programmer, who strives to only make <BR>any given mistake once, and who is open to suggestions and constructive <BR>criticism from those that show superior aptitude.<BR><BR>A bit over a decade ago, I wrote my first _really_big_ program, and I <BR>though it was great, and many people heaped praise on my efforts.&nbsp; I <BR>developed a massive ego, arrogance, and became exceptionally sensitive to <BR>criticism - especially that which challenged my fundamental beliefs and <BR>assumptions.&nbsp; Then someone wrote a better program.&nbsp; His code was cleaner, <BR>it ran faster, it was extensible, and his choice of language was <BR>obviously more appropriate for the task.&nbsp; In fact, it was better than <BR>mine at just about every level.&nbsp; Even I could see that.&nbsp; The spotlight <BR>faded.<BR><BR>Fame is fleeting and intoxicating - enjoy it while you can, but don't get <BR>drunk.<BR><BR>Henry.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:09:27 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>No - don't be silly, folks. You run the query on the RDBMS through a<BR>web-app, drop the results into XML tagged format and display the<BR>results using an XML parser running SAX rather than DOM. Big speed<BR>improvements and huge cross platform advantage.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>Email&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk<BR>Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Trevor, Peter<BR>&gt; Sent: 01 March 2001 15:58<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Dave McKenna wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Er, so if my&nbsp; 'database'&nbsp; has&nbsp; grown&nbsp; to&nbsp; include&nbsp; all<BR>&gt; canonical<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; sectors of the 3I and describes them down to the level<BR>&gt; generated<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; by Heaven&amp;Earth (including planetary maps), isn't that going to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; (a) take a long time to load into memory, and<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; (b) require an awful lot of memory?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; a) Yes<BR>&gt; &gt; b) Yes<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Especially when you consider that, as a general rule of thumb,<BR>&gt; &gt; you can mulitply the size of any given data structure by about<BR>&gt; &gt; 10 when you encapsulate it in XML.&nbsp; However, you don't try to<BR>&gt; &gt; wrap an entire database into a single XML packet.&nbsp; Rather,<BR>&gt; &gt; distinct elements or entities can be encapsulated... like, for<BR>&gt; &gt; instance, a single system or world (depending on how the schema<BR>&gt; &gt; is put together).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; And so if you then have an application that wants to identify all<BR>&gt; known&nbsp; non-aligned&nbsp; feudal&nbsp; technocracies&nbsp; with&nbsp; TL15&nbsp;&nbsp; class&nbsp;&nbsp; A<BR>&gt; starports and a military base elsewhere in the&nbsp; same&nbsp; system&nbsp; you<BR>&gt; have to scan all the XML packets?&nbsp; Sounds disk intensive.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Regards PLST<BR>&gt; (aka Stalin)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:14:58 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>I've just realised how many replies I've posted to this thread! Sorry<BR>people, but I am trying to address the points as they come up. For<BR>this one, you would be better aiming for "general purpose" - which<BR>means GPL cross-platform open source software rather than ODBC. I am<BR>now convinced that mySQL is the best option (sorry for mentioning<BR>InterBase now - its just that I happen to like it). I never did an<BR>astrogation data Schema, so can we work on the design and get an<BR>agreed set of data? Perhaps if we work in datamats that may help and<BR>let others develop system-specific versions later?<BR><BR>- --<BR>Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>Email&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk<BR>Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Trevor, Peter<BR>&gt; Sent: 01 March 2001 17:47<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Rob Myers wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; If we set the scope to be just astrogation data&nbsp; (for<BR>&gt; now)&nbsp; then<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; the high level definition has *already* been given to<BR>&gt; us&nbsp; in&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; published rules.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; You're absolutely right. :-)<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; So some sort of export-to/-from UPP functionality library<BR>&gt; &gt; would be useful, then?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; What I originally had in mind (before this explosion of&nbsp; interest<BR>&gt; in XML) was to use a free/shareware RDBMS&nbsp; (preferably&nbsp; one&nbsp; that<BR>&gt; was ODBC compliant) as&nbsp; a&nbsp; common&nbsp; data&nbsp; container&nbsp; with&nbsp; just&nbsp; 1<BR>&gt; program equiped&nbsp; with&nbsp; various&nbsp; import/export&nbsp; filters&nbsp; for&nbsp; WBS,<BR>&gt; Genie/Sunbeam, SAR, etc.&nbsp; Then all other programs could use&nbsp; this<BR>&gt; common data container without a need for them to have any import/<BR>&gt; export functions of their own at all.&nbsp; Further, I&nbsp; was&nbsp; going&nbsp; to<BR>&gt; put forward my own drill-down&nbsp; mapper&nbsp; program&nbsp; as&nbsp; the&nbsp; database<BR>&gt; adminstration module ...&nbsp; but&nbsp; making&nbsp; the&nbsp; database&nbsp; design&nbsp; (at<BR>&gt; least) "open source" so that&nbsp; it&nbsp; could&nbsp; support&nbsp; other&nbsp; people's<BR>&gt; programs, too.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Now I have to get my&nbsp; head&nbsp; around&nbsp; the&nbsp; design&nbsp; and&nbsp; performance<BR>&gt; issues of using XML instead of an RDBMS and see what's what.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Regards PLST<BR>&gt; (aka Stalin)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:06:54 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project<BR><BR>There is a Mac version of mySQL - so change my previous advice to "use<BR>mySQL instead of InterBase". By the way, does whoever is dealing with<BR>data design want to email me the design so far and I'll build a Schema<BR>for it. I'll also provide the DTDs and Schemas I already have.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>Email&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk<BR>Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson<BR>&gt; Sent: 02 March 2001 18:12<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; sense (hey, this links the beer thread to the programming<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; thread) or as in free speech sense ?<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; InterBase. Free and Open Source.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Thanks.&nbsp; I had originally wanted a free SQL-compliant RDBMS (ODBC<BR>&gt; &gt; for Windows) but had missed this one.&nbsp; From the blurb on the&nbsp; web<BR>&gt; &gt; it sounds ideal (support for BLOBs, too, so&nbsp; planetary&nbsp; maps&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; &gt; other graphics can be stored).&nbsp; I've downloaded it and will&nbsp; play<BR>&gt; &gt; with it this weekend.&nbsp; Ideally, a common Traveller database could<BR>&gt; &gt; be distributed as SQL scripts and loaded into&nbsp; the&nbsp; SQL-compliant<BR>&gt; &gt; RDBMS of your&nbsp; choice.&nbsp; I&nbsp; notice&nbsp; that&nbsp; InterBase&nbsp; has&nbsp; a&nbsp; Linux<BR>&gt; &gt; version (which would make porting "Traveller Universe"&nbsp; compliant<BR>&gt; &gt; software easier) ... not sure what to do about the Mac brigade.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Alas, not a heckuva lot until MacOSX comes out. Then we can<BR>&gt; port all these nice Open Source ones.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The Mac OS has been seriously deficient with respect to<BR>&gt; database apps<BR>&gt; for a long long time, (pretty much only FileMaker and Acius<BR>&gt; 4D) despite<BR>&gt; having some absolutely brilliant early efforts (such as the<BR>&gt; recently<BR>&gt; revived Helix, a completely graphical, object oriented database/RAD<BR>&gt; created in 1984 or so. see: http://www.helixtech.com/ I<BR>&gt; remember the<BR>&gt; first review of it, in Byte magazine where they described<BR>&gt; two librarians<BR>&gt; who purchased a Mac, got Helix, and proceeded to write a<BR>&gt; new version of<BR>&gt; their check-out/in book tracking software. From scratch. Visual<BR>&gt; computing environments are not all VB, and VB hardly represents the<BR>&gt; state of the art.)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This _will_ change with the advent of Mac OSX.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Bruce Johnson<BR>&gt; University of Arizona<BR>&gt; College of Pharmacy<BR>&gt; Information Technology Group<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:04:51 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Peter, did you make sure to get the patched version of InterBase? The<BR>one covering the security hole announced a couple of weeks ago? If<BR>not, swap to mySQL for now (I'm advising my clients to do the same,<BR>BTW) and switch back later when the patch is in.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>Email&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk<BR>Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Trevor, Peter<BR>&gt; Sent: 02 March 2001 12:57<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Traveller software project<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; sense (hey, this links the beer thread to the programming<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; thread) or as in free speech sense ?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; InterBase. Free and Open Source.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Thanks.&nbsp; I had originally wanted a free SQL-compliant RDBMS (ODBC<BR>&gt; for Windows) but had missed this one.&nbsp; From the blurb on the&nbsp; web<BR>&gt; it sounds ideal (support for BLOBs, too, so&nbsp; planetary&nbsp; maps&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; other graphics can be stored).&nbsp; I've downloaded it and will&nbsp; play<BR>&gt; with it this weekend.&nbsp; Ideally, a common Traveller database could<BR>&gt; be distributed as SQL scripts and loaded into&nbsp; the&nbsp; SQL-compliant<BR>&gt; RDBMS of your&nbsp; choice.&nbsp; I&nbsp; notice&nbsp; that&nbsp; InterBase&nbsp; has&nbsp; a&nbsp; Linux<BR>&gt; version (which would make porting "Traveller Universe"&nbsp; compliant<BR>&gt; software easier) ... not sure what to do about the Mac brigade.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; As for the XML data storage idea ...&nbsp; its&nbsp; outside&nbsp; my&nbsp; range&nbsp; of<BR>&gt; current knowledge at present and I am concerned about performance<BR>&gt; issues.&nbsp; However, using XML as a common means of data transfer to<BR>&gt; non TU-compliant software sounds fine.&nbsp; Perhaps once the database<BR>&gt; table design becomes reasonably stable one&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; XML&nbsp; experts<BR>&gt; here can start converting it into XML and I can build an&nbsp; "export<BR>&gt; in XML" function for the data.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Anyway, I'll report back next week on InterBase.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Regards PLST<BR>&gt; (aka Stalin)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3764<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sunday, March 4 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3765<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Central Software Repository<BR>Astrogation design<BR>OT News: Starlight 'Reveals Billions Of Earths'<BR>Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>RE: Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Fear of commitment<BR>Re: Astrogation design<BR>Re: Scout Brew logo...<BR>Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3764<BR>License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>Sapiens<BR>Re: TravellerBrews LIC<BR>Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?&nbsp; IYTU?<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Astrogation Data<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:59:59 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Central Software Repository<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Andrew<BR>&gt; Moffatt-Vallance<BR>&gt; Sent: 02 March 2001 22:25<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Central Software Repository<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The talk about a standardised Traveller Database and XML<BR>&gt; format got me<BR>&gt; thinking (dangerous thing that). How about we share<BR>&gt; components. Like,<BR>&gt; if/when we get a standardised Traveller UWP database agreed<BR>&gt; on, we write<BR>&gt; standard components to produce the SQL and XML in a variety of<BR>&gt; languages that can just be dropped into projects.<BR>&gt;<BR>That was the basic idea when I started the Traveller XML work (which I<BR>still fiddle with now and then - it has not entirely died off &lt;g&gt;).<BR>One thing though - XML is XML, so we only need one rather than "a<BR>variety of languages".<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:27:31 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Astrogation design<BR><BR>We have several issues in astrogation design - this is a quick try to<BR>pin them down so we can get on with data design.<BR><BR>1. Galaxy mapping. TTI use named sectors - these should be the core<BR>unit, agreed? But how do we identify and set the co-ordinates for<BR>sectors (presumably based on Core as sector 0 or sector 1)?<BR>2. Sectors contain subsectors. Much easier to map.<BR>3. Subsectors contain systems. Again a doddle for mapping.<BR>4. Systems contain stars, planets, asteroids and other bodies. What<BR>needs to be identified and how do we map the location?<BR>5. Each planet needs to be mapped - is that going too far at this<BR>stage (i think so)?<BR><BR>So the basic design would be:<BR><BR>- --&gt;Sector: ID; Location; Name; Other details<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --&gt;Subsector: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be several)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --&gt;System: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be<BR>several)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --&gt;Star: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be<BR>several)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --&gt;Planet: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be<BR>several)<BR>an alternative within the system could be...<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --&gt;Body: ID; Location; Type; Name; Other details<BR><BR>Obviously, we would need to know the details for each type of item -<BR>and importantly a way of identifying different data at different times<BR>for the system so that _one_ set of data can contain the<BR>canon/historical changes in the systems over the span of the Third<BR>Imperium.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>Email&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk<BR>Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 09:10:22 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: OT News: Starlight 'Reveals Billions Of Earths'<BR><BR>Saw this on another mailing list, thought it might be interesting<BR>to Travellers. The original article is at the link at the bottom.<BR><BR>QUOTED TEXT BEGINS:<BR><BR>"American Association:&nbsp; Starlight 'Reveals Billions Of Earths'"<BR><BR>by David Derbyshire, Science Correspondent, in San Francisco<BR><BR>Wednesday, 21 February 2001<BR><BR>The Galaxy is teeming with billions of Earth-like planets, some capable<BR>of supporting life, according to a study.<BR><BR>An analysis of light from hundreds of nearby stars suggests that at<BR>least half contain iron left after collisions with asteroids.&nbsp; And the<BR>astronomers behind the study believe that where there are asteroids with<BR>unstable orbits, there are rocky planets like Mars, Venus, and Earth.<BR><BR>Only a few years ago, astronomers were unable to say whether planetary<BR>systems like our solar system were rare or common.&nbsp; But studies of the<BR>"wobble" of stars, caused by the gravitational tugs of large planets,<BR>has provided evidence of 55 giant planets outside the solar system.<BR>Researchers also believe that they have seen such a giant planet passing<BR>in front of a star, reducing its brightness temporarily.&nbsp; The search for<BR>iron that might have been devoured by stars in collisions with<BR>metal-rich asteroids offers a third technique for spotting possible<BR>solar systems.<BR><BR>Dr. Norman Murray, of the University of Toronto, examined the light<BR>signature from 466 Sun-like stars and another twenty that were entering<BR>old age within 325 light years of the Sun.&nbsp; "What I found is evidence<BR>that there is terrestrial type material orbiting most of the stars in<BR>the solar neighbourhood," he told the American Association for the<BR>Advancement of Science meeting in San Francisco.<BR><BR>"The implication, if this result holds up, is that there are Earth-like<BR>bodies in orbit around most of the stars in the galaxy."<BR><BR>Because stars naturally contain iron, just looking for evidence of the<BR>metal is not enough to prove the existence of rocky asteroids.&nbsp; Instead,<BR>he looked for clues that the iron had been added to the stars long after<BR>they were formed.<BR><BR>A small star will devour iron deposited on its surface, mixing it in<BR>thoroughly with stellar gas.&nbsp; But the largest stars have more stable<BR>outer layers and will retain higher levels of accreted iron away from<BR>their interiors.&nbsp; Dr. Murray found that iron concentrations jumped when<BR>stars reached a certain size, suggesting that their iron could have been<BR>deposited by rocky asteroids.&nbsp; Other means of adding iron to stars were<BR>unlikely or impossible.<BR><BR>He also found that iron levels in the stars known to have orbiting<BR>planets were much higher than average.&nbsp; If rocky material was orbiting<BR>stars, then over time it would clump together to form rocky planets.<BR>And if asteroids were flying into the suns, it is likely that the<BR>gravitational pull of planets was sending them into their chaotic<BR>orbits.<BR><BR>Dr. Murray, who is keen to repeat the study, said:&nbsp; "If there are<BR>terrestrial bodies around these stars, then at least the probability<BR>that there is life that is similar to what we consider to be life has to<BR>be more likely.<BR><BR>"If there weren't any terrestrial planets, there wouldn't be<BR>terrestrial-based life.&nbsp; So it is one more indication that life might be<BR>common in the galaxy, but we don't know that."<BR><BR> Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2000.<BR><BR>QUOTED TEXT ENDS.<BR><BR>Yet.&nbsp; We don't know that...yet.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; ----------<BR>The original link to the article (this will probably wrap - sorry):<BR>http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=004400023112039&amp;rtmo=0xisKsGq&amp;atmo=rrrr<BR>rrrq&amp;pg=/et/01/2/21/waa21.html<BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net<BR><BR>Millihelen: amount of beauty required to launch one ship.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 09:10:35 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>The March 2001 Discover magazine has a short article<BR>(p.12) entitled "Hot Fusion in a Can":<BR><BR>"Richard Siemen, a physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory thinks <BR>he's found a way to harness the nuclear fusion reactions that power <BR>the sun -- and do it with a device not much bigger than a beer can."<BR>[Can you see why I had to post this?]<BR>"The long-standing obstacle to fusion power is that atomic nuclei <BR>strongly repel one another, and it takes some heavy-handed technology <BR>to bring them together. So far, after spending decades and billions <BR>of dollars on warehouse-sized reactors, researchers have yet to <BR>extract enough energy to power a flashlight.&nbsp; Siemen hopes to succeed <BR>where other failed byinjectingheated and magnetized hydrogen into a <BR>10-inch long, 3.5 inch-wide cylinder and then shooting a 10-million <BR>amp current into the can, which collapses and crushes its contents.&nbsp; <BR>Under those conditions, Siemen theorizes, the hydrogen should fuse, <BR>producing helium and a flood of high-speed neutrons whose energy can <BR>be converted to electricity.&nbsp; So far, he has imploded a can but has <BR>not achieved nuclear burning. 'Within 20 years, we could have a <BR>demonstration unit that would cost less than a billion dollars,' he <BR>says. In the fusion world, that would qualify as a real breakthrough.<BR>- -- Kathy A. Svitil"<BR>There's a diagram of the Linear Implosion System included.<BR><BR>I found it online at:<BR>http://www.discover.com/mar_01/breakfusion.html<BR><BR>ObTrav: Mr. Fusion, anyone?<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR>- --<BR>Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net<BR><BR>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:<BR>Canis meus id comedit.&nbsp; --&nbsp;&nbsp; My dog ate it.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:21:54 -0000 <BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Rob Davenport [mailto:rgd@ohio.voyager.net]<BR>&gt; Sent: 04 March 2001 14:11<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The March 2001 Discover magazine has a short article<BR>&gt; (p.12) entitled "Hot Fusion in a Can":<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; "Richard Siemen, a physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory thinks <BR>&gt; he's found a way to harness the nuclear fusion reactions that power <BR>&gt; the sun -- and do it with a device not much bigger than a beer can."<BR>&gt; [Can you see why I had to post this?]<BR><BR><BR>Mmmm, fusion &lt;drool&gt;<BR>(_8(|)<BR><BR><BR>Seriously, great article.<BR>Dean<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:49:32 -0000 <BR>From: "Jones, Dean" &lt;Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Fear of commitment<BR><BR>Going off-list for another week...holiday this time. See y'all soon<BR><BR>Dean <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:29:12 +0000<BR>From: Paul Campbell &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Astrogation design<BR><BR>On Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:27:31PM -0000, Mark Preston wrote:<BR>&gt; We have several issues in astrogation design - this is a quick try to<BR>&gt; pin them down so we can get on with data design.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 1. Galaxy mapping. TTI use named sectors - these should be the core<BR>&gt; unit, agreed? But how do we identify and set the co-ordinates for<BR>&gt; sectors (presumably based on Core as sector 0 or sector 1)?<BR>&gt; 2. Sectors contain subsectors. Much easier to map.<BR>&gt; 3. Subsectors contain systems. Again a doddle for mapping.<BR>&gt; 4. Systems contain stars, planets, asteroids and other bodies. What<BR>&gt; needs to be identified and how do we map the location?<BR><BR>The design I have been working on has a System containing a Star,<BR>which in turn contains Orbits.&nbsp; These Orbits contain other Stars,<BR>Planets, Gas Giants, etc.&nbsp; We could make an Orbit object as complex as<BR>we like to include things like Pluto.&nbsp; At the moment, it only has a<BR>diameter.<BR><BR>&gt; 5. Each planet needs to be mapped - is that going too far at this<BR>&gt; stage (i think so)?<BR><BR>I hadn't gone this far.&nbsp; Although I did split Population into a<BR>seperate object from Planet, to deal with Balkanized worlds and<BR>populated High Ports, etc.<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; So the basic design would be:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; --&gt;Sector: ID; Location; Name; Other details<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --&gt;Subsector: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be several)<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --&gt;System: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be<BR>&gt; several)<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --&gt;Star: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be<BR>&gt; several)<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --&gt;Planet: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be<BR>&gt; several)<BR>&gt; an alternative within the system could be...<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --&gt;Body: ID; Location; Type; Name; Other details<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Obviously, we would need to know the details for each type of item -<BR>&gt; and importantly a way of identifying different data at different times<BR>&gt; for the system so that _one_ set of data can contain the<BR>&gt; canon/historical changes in the systems over the span of the Third<BR>&gt; Imperium.<BR><BR>The root objects in my design were to be Universe objects, allowing<BR>multiple meilieus to be stored in the same DB.&nbsp; Similar to Galactic's<BR>ability.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24<BR>http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net<BR>jupiter: 3:23pm up 54 days, 5:03, 6 users, load average: 0.04, 0.04, 0.00<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:01:31 GMT<BR>From: "John G. Wood" &lt;elvwood@ntlworld.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Scout Brew logo...<BR><BR>"Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/<BR><BR>Perfect! I just wish the other people in my house would understand why I <BR>find it so funny - how many obscure references can you pack into a simple <BR>image?<BR><BR>John<BR>http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:01:39 GMT<BR>From: "John G. Wood" &lt;elvwood@ntlworld.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; On 2 Mar 2001, at 15:59, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Looks 'bout right. My oly reservation was the System &lt;-&gt; &lt;something&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; I'll have to look, I'm not sure if any of the various world generation <BR>&gt; &gt; systems allow naked stars. First In does not, but it's been a while <BR>&gt; &gt; since I used any of the others.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; How about changing Worlds/GasGiants/PlanetoidBelts into SystemBodies <BR>&gt; and making the System &lt;-&gt; SystemBodies 1:M compulsory and then <BR>&gt; defining just what sub catergory the SystemBody falls into.<BR><BR>I don't know if this helps (not having worked with databases), but when I was <BR>writing system generation software I had a "System Body" type which could be of <BR>four subtypes: Star, Gas giant, Terrestrial world, Belt. Each of these (except <BR>Belt) could have children, so the primary Star might have another star (the <BR>secondary) as a child, which might have a Gas giant in the third orbit, which <BR>might have three Terrestrial worlds (moons) and a Belt (ring). I just associated <BR>the primary Star with the System and it simply formed a tree from there.<BR><BR>I also separated out habitation-related info (port, pop, gov, law, tech) from <BR>body info, so each body might or might not have some, because it simplified <BR>things. It might not in a database, but it's worth considering.<BR><BR>&gt; Also, thinking about it, Subsector could be dropped as an entity and turned <BR>&gt; into an attribute of System.<BR><BR>You don't even need that: you can calculate the System's subsector from the hex <BR>position. You just need 16 subsector names associated with the Sector.<BR><BR>&gt; So, unless anybody has any strong objections to the model, I'll move on to <BR>&gt; determining attributes for the entities.<BR><BR>Here are a few ideas. I don't include things that can be calculated directly <BR>(like orbital period), but do include links in all directions in the tree of <BR>orbits for convenience.<BR><BR>System:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; sector *<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; hex location<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; allegiance<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; TAS zone<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; primary star *<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; mainworld *, # gas giants, # planetoid belts if desired for ease<BR><BR>Any System body:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; subtype<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; name<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; notes<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; tree info:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; parent body *<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; next inwards body *<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; next outwards body *<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; innermost satellite body *<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; orbital info:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; radius<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; eccentricity<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; inclination<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ascension<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; periastron<BR><BR>Star:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; class<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; type<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; subtype<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; size<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; mass<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; luminosity<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; bode constant<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; bode multiplier<BR><BR>Belt:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; predominant body diameter<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; maximum body diameter<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; nickel-iron zone %<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; carbonaceous zone %<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; width<BR><BR>Planet (Gas giant or Terrestrial):<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; diameter<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; density<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; tilt<BR><BR>Terrestrial:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; atmosphere:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; pressure<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; composition<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; hydrographics:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; %<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; composition<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>HTH,&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>John<BR>http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 12:37:37 -0500<BR>From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" &lt;caraig@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3764<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 20:56:56 -0800<BR>&gt;From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: [TML] Scout Brew logo...<BR><BR>&gt;"eight-legged whatever-it-is"?!?&nbsp; My dear boy, that's the scouts own,<BR>&gt;beloved PONI from the IISS Communications branch emblem.<BR><BR>Until you told me that, I had no idea what the thing was called. =) I only <BR>knew it had something to do with the Scouts.&nbsp; So THAT'S a poni....<BR><BR>Thanks for the information! =)<BR><BR><BR>- ---<BR>==============================================================<BR>Jonathan McDermott&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; "Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -Steve Wozniak<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:25:17 -0800<BR>From: Russell Bornschlegel &lt;kaleja@estarcion.com&gt;<BR>Subject: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>htp wrote:<BR>&gt; On 20010228.1344, "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;Computing *isn't* some sort&nbsp; of&nbsp; modern&nbsp; religion&nbsp; who's&nbsp; secrets<BR>&gt; &gt;should only be revealed to&nbsp; the&nbsp; privileged&nbsp; few&nbsp; who&nbsp; can&nbsp; prove<BR>&gt; &gt;themselves&nbsp; worthy!&nbsp; Anything&nbsp; (including&nbsp; VB)&nbsp; that&nbsp;&nbsp; opens&nbsp;&nbsp; up<BR>&gt; &gt;computing to the masses is a *good* thing.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Would you consider _anything_ that opens up _brain-surgery_ to the masses <BR>&gt; to be a *good* thing also?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I think not.&nbsp; No _sane_ person would.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Licensing is an instrument designed by society to minimise the damage <BR>&gt; that individuals can do.<BR><BR>While licensing of programmers might be a good thing for a few <BR>life-critical sorts of applications -- air traffic control, computer<BR>assisted brain surgery, nuclear power plants -- I don't see what <BR>harm can be done by writing buggy programs in the privacy of one's <BR>own home.<BR><BR>&gt; If _anyone_ was allowed to teach, our civilisation's future <BR>&gt; would be doomed.<BR><BR>I don't know if you're writing from the US or not, but despite <BR>licensing, the fact that we're paying unlicensed programmers three <BR>times what we pay our licensed teachers is dooming our future anyway.<BR><BR>&gt; The new programmers of today will grow up to be, surprise, surprise, the <BR>&gt; "professional" programmers of tomorrow.&nbsp; If the environment in which <BR>&gt; their learning takes place encourages short-cuts, fragile code, the use <BR>&gt; of proprietary software, and exclusive programming techniques which <BR>&gt; prohibit portability of code, then the industry is completely screwed.<BR><BR>I assure you, the industry is completely screwed. Outside of a few <BR>organizations. Marketing-driven release cycles and "ship it now, fix<BR>it later" are encouraging all the bad stuff you mention there. I <BR>fear that licensing programmers won't help that.<BR><BR>&gt; VB is making that miserable future a reality.<BR><BR>It really seems as if you're basing your opinions on VB primarily on<BR>your memories of classic BASIC. They're very different animals. And <BR>you can write bad code in any language; I've spent a sizable portion <BR>of the last ten years inheriting programs which were "90% done" by <BR>people who would never, no matter what, be able to get that last 10%.<BR>Most of these were in C and C++. <BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Yes, there will be&nbsp; a<BR>&gt; &gt;lot more third-rate programs flying about, but many&nbsp; more&nbsp; people<BR>&gt; &gt;than now will be empowered ...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Empowered to write horrible, non-portable code?&nbsp; How can that be good for <BR>&gt; society??? <BR><BR>How about empowered to write a program that fills a need? <BR><BR>&gt; Fine, if you're under 15, use VB.&nbsp; But if you've survived puberty, then <BR>&gt; you should really lock away your VB stuff in your closet with your <BR>&gt; Britney Spears posters and join the grown-ups.<BR><BR>IMO, this is really out of line and unnecessary. When we're this <BR>far off-topic, it pays to be civil. <BR><BR>Secondly, if you think VB is so evil, and care so much about the <BR>future of programming, "VB is for children" is an illogical <BR>attitude. <BR><BR>&gt; I have high standards and care about the future of information <BR>&gt; technology.&nbsp; If that position places me in an ivory tower, then so be it. <BR>&gt;&nbsp; The view is superb, and the door is always open...<BR><BR>...to those who can afford the licensing fee?<BR><BR>The computer industry, today, is moving too fast for licensing to be<BR>at all sensible. What languages are going to be important in ten <BR>years? What courses could I have taken in college in 1988 that would<BR>have best prepared me to do web development work today?[1] <BR><BR>I'd rather hire a self-taught kid who can show me a huge program he <BR>wrote in VB for some nefarious purpose of his own than someone with <BR>a degree and an MSCE who can't learn a thing outside of school and <BR>who got into the industry because he heard you could make a lot of <BR>money.<BR><BR>- -Russell B<BR><BR>[1] A friend was telling me about a situation where she wanted to <BR>hire a particular person for a position, but by corporate protocol<BR>was required to publically advertise for applicants. She put in <BR>the requirements that candidates needed 6 years of web development <BR>experience. This was in 1997. Strangely, no qualified applicants <BR>appeared.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 11:43:21 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Sapiens<BR><BR>Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.Sapiens?<BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 11:49:30 -0800<BR>From: Cheryl &lt;cheryl@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: TravellerBrews LIC<BR><BR>on 3/1/01 3:09 AM, Jeffrey Malone at nparker1971@ozemail.com.au wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Brewed through a sheep?&nbsp; Sounds more like NZ beer to me (which is not to<BR>&gt; defend many Oz beers...we export the crap so that we won't have to drink it<BR>&gt; here...)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; One wonders then what beer would taste like if it were brewed through a<BR>&gt; penguin...<BR>&gt; <BR>Well that's obvious to anyone who has ever been to the penguin exhibit at<BR>the zoo. That would be fish flavored, of course.<BR><BR>- -Cheryl Glenn<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:56:10 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?&nbsp; IYTU?<BR><BR>On 2 Mar 01, at 14:04, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>&gt; I wish I could stop thinking of yogurt.<BR><BR>:) <BR><BR>&gt; On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Rob Davenport wrote:<BR>&gt; That's true, although most of the places US culture shows up in outside<BR>&gt; the US aren't actually part of the US.&nbsp; Chinese culture is also pretty<BR>&gt; pervasive-- you can find Chinatowns in most large cities.<BR><BR>I guess I agree Charles in that there is a "standard culture" at <BR>least as portrayed in CT canon, and it's a lot like a large country,<BR>with local variations and pockets of the unusual.&nbsp; <BR>The obvious comparison (especially for me) is the U.S. But <BR>remembering the list's international membership made me wonder - what <BR>would some other interesting examples be?&nbsp; The U.K. of the 19th <BR>century comes to mind (yep, I'm still reading those Napoleonic naval <BR>fiction novel by O'Brian and Forester).&nbsp; They controlled a lot of <BR>territory but the culture was (I believe) limited to the upper <BR>classes and the local populations retained much of their own culture.<BR>(cf. early Second Imperium).&nbsp; <BR>Or compare to India - hundreds of local cultures, languages, <BR>religions, sometimes compatible/friendly, sometimes not, all under <BR>one government.&nbsp;&nbsp; China may be similar, but I'm not as familiar with <BR>it.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; I thought the K'Kree were the vegan empire??<BR>:P<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Yes, Cleveland has it's cultural areas, some more commonly known, <BR>&gt; &gt; others only by where various groups live in this decade (and a lot move <BR>&gt; &gt; around - out to the suburbs to be specific).&nbsp; Sure there'd be areas for <BR>&gt; &gt; more common cultural/religious groups. Hmm - could the be a "Zho-<BR>&gt; &gt; town"/"Little Zhodane" on Regina?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; What's funny about such places is the way they tend to shift.&nbsp; Chinatown<BR>&gt; in SF used to be Cantonese-speaking, today all the Cantonese speakers live<BR>&gt; in the Sunset/Richmond area and Chinatown is Mandarin-speaking much more<BR>&gt; than it used to be.&nbsp; There is a heavy Korean presence in Japantown, and<BR>&gt; many of the Japanese have moved into the Tenderloin.<BR><BR>Interesting - would there be populations that move from planet to <BR>planet, looking for a better opportunity while trying to retain their <BR>cultural heritage, facing possibly harsh treatment from locals?<BR>(Well, I'm sure there could be - any examples in canon?)<BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net<BR><BR>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:<BR>Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.<BR>I'm not interested in your dopey religious cult.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:10:03 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>On 2 Mar 01, at 16:35, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>&gt; I'm sure that the mass market Imperial beers would be dehydrated<BR>&gt; at the factory and then reconcentrated with water at the factory.<BR>&gt; They'd probably taste like it too.<BR><BR>With the cost of transportation being so much, if local ingredients <BR>(or materials for things other than beer) can be found/made, wouldn't<BR>it be more likely to have franchises that distribute the Secret <BR>Formulae around?&nbsp; At least as the scale gets beyond a sector or so.<BR>I've envisioned (or read and forget where) that plans, formulae and<BR>research data, all things carried more economically via x-boat or <BR>other couriers would be used for disseminating scientific, financial, <BR>and manufacturing data.&nbsp; LSP sells the plans for it's products to <BR>affiliated manufacturers on various worlds.&nbsp;&nbsp; Quality control <BR>inspectors would be necessary -- now there's a job for PCs - quality <BR>control inspectors for Scout Beer? :)<BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net<BR><BR>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:<BR>Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam<BR>elenganter concinnatur!<BR>Those green pants go so well with that pink shirt and the plaid jacket!<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:01:56 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Astrogation Data<BR><BR>The first cut of an XML format for sector astrogation follows. I've<BR>just shown the XML, but you are all welcome to the Schema for it if<BR>anyone wants to work on it. Ignore the bit between "{{--" and "--}}".<BR>The rest shows a method of using XML for recording unique sector IDs,<BR>names (including spaces etc.) and location (in terms of units, such as<BR>"sectors" to spin/antispinward or core/rimward). Positive numbers are<BR>spin- and coreward, negative ones antispin- and rimward.<BR><BR>Following that is a block from my exiting library data Schema to allow<BR>general and historical data to be recorded, specifying what it can be<BR>used for ("Canon", "TNE" "local" house rules and so on). Sections<BR>shown allow for stellar physical information, rule or affilliation,<BR>political events, economic structure and events, technology, military<BR>records and general history. Most of the possible data is left blank<BR>for (relative) brevity.<BR><BR>As well as general comments on the Schema, it would help if anyone can<BR>identify any other sector-wide data that would need to be stored at<BR>this level. Otherwise, if it meets the needs, I'll add the subsector<BR>level next.<BR><BR>&lt;--Astrogation XML Document (Minimal version)--&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?&gt;<BR>&lt;!-- edited with XML Spy v3.5 (http://www.xmlspy.com) by Mark A.<BR>Preston (The Magpie's Nest) --&gt;<BR>&lt;sector {{--xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2000/10/XMLSchema-instance"<BR>xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="C:\Users\Mark\Games\Traveller\XML\Devel<BR>opment\AstroML.xsd"--}} id="st141" name="Sarah&amp;apos;s Rain" spin="14"<BR>core="3"&gt;<BR>&lt;/sector&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;--Astrogation XML Document (Full options)--&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?&gt;<BR>&lt;!-- edited with XML Spy v3.5 (http://www.xmlspy.com) by Mark A.<BR>Preston (The Magpie's Nest) --&gt;<BR>&lt;sector {{--xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2000/10/XMLSchema-instance"<BR>xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="C:\Users\Mark\Games\Traveller\XML\Devel<BR>opment\AstroML.xsd"--}} id="st141" name="Sarah&amp;apos;s Rain" spin="14"<BR>core="3"&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;stellar&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;general scope="local"&gt;Sarah's Rain is a moderately dense sector,<BR>with a stream of hot, yellow stars forming a narrow band through the<BR>sector from core-spinward to rim-antispinward. Even so, it is very<BR>sparsely populated and has never been an important part of human<BR>exploration.&lt;/general&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;general scope="tml"&gt;A heavily packed sector with extremely dense<BR>superheavy stars scattered throughout. There is a preponderance of red<BR>supergiants, but with a core of hot, blue stars leading many to<BR>suspect that a small singularity may be located near the centre of the<BR>sector.&lt;/general&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;dated scope="local"&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;from day="137" year="1024"/&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;to day="027" year="1038"/&gt;Early in the first millennium,<BR>scientific vessels were sent by the Imperium to investigate the<BR>possible singularity at the core of Sarah's Rain. Communications were<BR>lost and several resue missions sent to investigate, but to no avail.<BR>The last such mission was sent from Core on 027-1038.&lt;/dated&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;/stellar&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;rule/&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;politics/&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;economy/&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;tech/&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;military/&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;history/&gt;<BR>&lt;/sector&gt;<BR><BR>- --<BR>Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>Email&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk<BR>Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3765<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (rly-zb03.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.3]) by air-zb05.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Sun, 04 Mar 2001 15:13:59 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Sun, 04 Mar 2001 15:13:28 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA32655;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:12:04 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:11:13 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA32604<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:11:13 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:11:13 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103042011.PAA32604@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3765<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3766</B></TD></TR>
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<TD>3/5/01 1:23:12 AM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, March 5 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3766<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Fractal hex coordinate system<BR>Re: Sapiens<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Astrogation design<BR>Re: Fractal hex coordinate system<BR>Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Re: Sapiens<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>RE: Sapiens<BR>Re: Scout Brew logo...<BR>Re: Fractal hex coordinate system<BR>Re: New Traveller software project<BR>RE: Sapiens<BR>Re: Fractal hex coordinate system<BR>GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering<BR>EASI Tech: Smart Interfaces for Primitive Users<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering<BR>Re: EASI Tech: Smart Interfaces for Primitive Users<BR>RE: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: License To Program<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 16:48:19 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Fractal hex coordinate system<BR><BR>Hello Tim,<BR>&nbsp; When I worked on the Hex ID distance calculation program, I discovered<BR>that it would work for the entire known traveller universe if the following<BR>new methodology was used...<BR><BR>Treat the capital world as having the HexID as 0000,0000 (this&nbsp; methodology<BR>good for a map system that is 9,999 parsecs in radius).&nbsp; All other worlds<BR>now have their HexID as being +/- 9999, +/-9999.&nbsp; There wouldn't be a need<BR>for strange algorithms or anything else for that matter.&nbsp; As for how to<BR>represent it on a map? a hex could be seen as 9999 9999 (space deliminating<BR>the X and Y values) or it could be read as 9999-9999 for the positive X,<BR>negative Y aspect or -9999 9999 for the negative X positive Y aspect, and<BR>finally -9999-9999.&nbsp; String handling routines can separate the X and Y<BR>coordinates easily enough.<BR><BR>&nbsp; As for the database?&nbsp; The worlds can have their normal world definition<BR>data, but also include a entry that reads "Sector Capital" along with an<BR>entry that reads subsector capital.&nbsp; In this manner, the standard Traveller<BR>set up can be maintained, along with the newer standard...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:49:45 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin askes:<BR><BR>&gt;Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.Sapiens?<BR><BR>No explanations. It is simply stated as a fact. And subsequent Traveller authors<BR>have been unable to resist the temptation to introduce some descendants of<BR>transplanted human populations that has drifted too far to be interfertile with<BR>the rest, so there is a contradiction there.<BR><BR>My own fix IMTU is to introduce a new designation: Hominid races. Hominid races<BR>are those that are no longer interfertile with the human races. That way all<BR>human races are Homo sapiens because the _definition_ of a human race is to be<BR>Homo sapiens. Those that are not are not human but hominid races[*].<BR><BR>Obviously is a canon revision. If hominid races exists an article about human<BR>races would mention them or at the very least refer to them, and the Library<BR>Data entry about Humaniti does no such thing. But if you can get past that, this<BR>explains a lot of other things, like why some material puts the number of human<BR>races at 46 and others put them at 49 (Explanation: There is a grey area. Some<BR>races are partially interfertile and just how partial it has to be to classify a<BR>race as hominid instead of human differs from authority to authority). And it<BR>gives a convenient way to pigeonhole those MHRs that are not interfertile with<BR>the rest of humanity.<BR><BR>[*] For some reason there are not all that many of them. Somewhere between 6 and<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 12 would be my suggestion.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 22:57:54 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>The number and quality of microbreweries here in Colorado rivals Washington <BR>state! (Local plug) While I lived in Hawaii, a friend of mine and some other <BR>Germans went together to finance a microbrewery. They imported all of the <BR>equipment for the brewery and hired a German Master Brewer to oversee the <BR>operation. All of the ingredients were imported except for the water. The <BR>beer was very good, but was never sold off-island.<BR><BR>I can see the same thing happening at different systems in Traveller. Not <BR>all worlds are right for producing good hops, etc., so those would be <BR>imported, but local water would be used. However, the water will cause the <BR>taste to differ. Each world producing Scout Brew or the other leading brands <BR>would have a distinctive flavor from the water (and the exact sources of the <BR>other ingredients) that a connoisseur might be able to identify. (I have <BR>heard that in some places Coke is made with beet sugar and in others cane <BR>sugar, and that there is a difference.)<BR><BR>A suggestion for module for the Modular Cutter: a transportable <BR>microbrewery.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;On 2 Mar 01, at 16:35, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; I'm sure that the mass market Imperial beers would be dehydrated<BR>&gt; &gt; at the factory and then reconcentrated with water at the factory.<BR>&gt; &gt; They'd probably taste like it too.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;With the cost of transportation being so much, if local ingredients<BR>&gt;(or materials for things other than beer) can be found/made, wouldn't<BR>&gt;it be more likely to have franchises that distribute the Secret<BR>&gt;Formulae around?&nbsp; At least as the scale gets beyond a sector or so.<BR>&gt;I've envisioned (or read and forget where) that plans, formulae and<BR>&gt;research data, all things carried more economically via x-boat or<BR>&gt;other couriers would be used for disseminating scientific, financial,<BR>&gt;and manufacturing data.&nbsp; LSP sells the plans for it's products to<BR>&gt;affiliated manufacturers on various worlds.&nbsp;&nbsp; Quality control<BR>&gt;inspectors would be necessary -- now there's a job for PCs - quality<BR>&gt;control inspectors for Scout Beer? :)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;--<BR>&gt;Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:16:54 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Astrogation design<BR><BR>Paul Campbell wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; The design I have been working on has a System containing a Star,<BR>&gt; which in turn contains Orbits.&nbsp; These Orbits contain other Stars,<BR>&gt; Planets, Gas Giants, etc.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Yes, this is similar to how my starmap generation program works.<BR>The only thing to be careful of is to avoid generating large stars "in<BR>orbit" of small ones.&nbsp; If you are reading in pregenerated data it<BR>should be fine.&nbsp; I managed to end up generating a system of planets<BR>around an M-class dwarf.&nbsp; Only problem, the 5th orbit contained an<BR>F-class star, over 10 times as massive as the "primary"!&nbsp; Oops.<BR><BR>&nbsp; If a system has any planets, the stars have to be either much<BR>further apart than the most distant planet, or much closer than the<BR>closest.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; The root objects in my design were to be Universe objects, allowing<BR>&gt; multiple meilieus to be stored in the same DB.&nbsp; Similar to Galactic's<BR>&gt; ability.<BR><BR>&nbsp; This is a good idea.&nbsp; (I suspect you wouldn't be able to store MTU<BR>in the database though.&nbsp; Not without changing a lot of Traveller<BR>astrographic assumptions, such as the one that confines star systems<BR>to a plane)<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:38:10 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Fractal hex coordinate system<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR>&gt; Treat the capital world as having the HexID as 0000,0000 (this<BR>&gt; methodology good for a map system that is 9,999 parsecs in radius).<BR>&gt; All other worlds now have their HexID as being +/- 9999, +/-9999.<BR>&gt; There wouldn't be a need for strange algorithms or anything else for<BR>&gt; that matter.<BR><BR>&nbsp; The fractal coordinates were very tongue-in-cheek, of course :)<BR><BR>&nbsp; On a more serious note, the X/Y coordinates do have the odd/even<BR>problem where neighbouring hexes have different relative coordinates<BR>depending upon whether the X value is odd or even.&nbsp; That's part of<BR>what I mean by "strange algorithms".<BR><BR><BR>- - Tim<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:55:49 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>Rob Davenport wrote :-<BR>&lt;following interesting news story quote&gt;<BR>&gt; Siemen hopes to succeed where other failed by injecting heated and<BR>&gt; magnetized hydrogen into a 10-inch long, 3.5 inch-wide cylinder and<BR>&gt; then shooting a 10-million amp current into the can, which collapses<BR>&gt; and crushes its contents.<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; ObTrav: Mr. Fusion, anyone?<BR>Sadly, not quite as compact as that, given the requirement for a 10MA<BR>current.<BR><BR>The best bet in the near term would seem to be inertial confinement fusion<BR>in Sandia's proposed X-1 X-ray source (~2010s).<BR>Tokamak stuff is problematic, given the lack of financial support for it (is<BR>the U.S. going to chip in again)?<BR><BR>Sigh. Maybe Leslie Woods is right, and it's not possible to achieve<BR>high-yield fusion at all. I hope he's wrong, though.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:39:54 -0800<BR>From: Russell Bornschlegel &lt;kaleja@estarcion.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H. <BR>&gt; Sapiens?<BR><BR>&lt;smartass&gt;<BR><BR>Do you have some other species of human in mind?<BR><BR>&lt;/smartass&gt;<BR><BR>- -Russell B<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:02:00 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>Tod wrote:<BR>&gt;Jesse, Glenn, Doug.&nbsp; Next Fun Shoot Mark and I will have to arrange a trip<BR>&gt;to one of our fine brewpubs, although I know you have you share in SF.<BR><BR>As long as you visit AFTER the Fun Shoot.&nbsp; ;-)<BR><BR>(Strewth, what have I started! It was only my little attempt to hose-down<BR>the VB flamewar, after all. Obviously, the keg is mightier than the sword!)<BR><BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material &amp; opinions contained within are solely those<BR>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 18:08:02 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR>Heh. I was just going over the dates again, and realized (Not for the first<BR>time, I hope) that the H.Sapiens were not the only species of hominid, if<BR>they even evolved on earth by 395,000 BC. (Only my GT stuff is here, but I'm<BR>pretty sure it is the same in each addition.)<BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Russell Bornschlegel<BR>Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:40 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.<BR>&gt; Sapiens?<BR><BR>&lt;smartass&gt;<BR><BR>Do you have some other species of human in mind?<BR><BR>&lt;/smartass&gt;<BR><BR>- -Russell B<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:22:10 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: Re: Scout Brew logo...<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>Mark created:<BR>&gt;Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/<BR><BR>Excellent work!<BR><BR>&gt;Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)<BR><BR>Doubt it. Apart from them being nice guys who can take a joke (unless - in<BR>Stev's case - if the joke is made by the FBI&nbsp; ;-), satire is above such<BR>problems as copyright. This is why TV shows such as "Full Frontal" in Oz<BR>can take an advert and totally send it up without problems.<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material &amp; opinions contained within are solely those<BR>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 21:28:55 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Fractal hex coordinate system<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; On a more serious note, the X/Y coordinates do have the odd/even<BR>&gt;problem where neighbouring hexes have different relative coordinates<BR>&gt;depending upon whether the X value is odd or even.&nbsp; That's part of<BR>&gt;what I mean by "strange algorithms".<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;- Tim<BR><BR>Yuppers - the odd even aspects do come into play with the x/y system.&nbsp; It<BR>also seems to come into play with the U,X system as well.&nbsp; What I found to<BR>be true with the X/Y co-ordinate system is that not only does it matter<BR>whether the starting hex is odd or even, but it also matters whether the<BR>distance itself is odd or even.&nbsp; Oddly enough?&nbsp; The *only* times this came<BR>into play were in the arcs described by either the #6 arc or the #3 arc if<BR>one assumes that the top hex side is the #1 arc.&nbsp; Why this is true, I don't<BR>know.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:35:08 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: Re: New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>htp penned:<BR>&gt;The new programmers of today will grow up to be, surprise, surprise, the<BR>&gt;"professional" programmers of tomorrow.&nbsp; If the environment in which<BR>&gt;their learning takes place encourages short-cuts, fragile code, the use<BR>&gt;of proprietary software, and exclusive programming techniques which<BR>&gt;prohibit portability of code, then the industry is completely screwed.<BR><BR>You mean, like Microsoft?<BR><BR>- - Hyphen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 18:39:53 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR>Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly<BR>120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the<BR>ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the<BR>assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens, or<BR>did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations<BR>they took?<BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jeff<BR>Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 6:08 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR><BR>Heh. I was just going over the dates again, and realized (Not for the first<BR>time, I hope) that the H.Sapiens were not the only species of hominid, if<BR>they even evolved on earth by 395,000 BC. (Only my GT stuff is here, but I'm<BR>pretty sure it is the same in each addition.)<BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Russell Bornschlegel<BR>Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:40 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.<BR>&gt; Sapiens?<BR><BR>&lt;smartass&gt;<BR><BR>Do you have some other species of human in mind?<BR><BR>&lt;/smartass&gt;<BR><BR>- -Russell B<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:42:39 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Fractal hex coordinate system<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR>&gt; Yuppers - the odd even aspects do come into play with the x/y system.&nbsp; It<BR>&gt; also seems to come into play with the U,X system as well.<BR><BR>&nbsp; No, the U/X system (or U/V if you prefer) doesn't have that problem.<BR>The odd/even mess is due to the fact that the hex grid only has<BR>horizontal translational symmetry if you go 2 hexes, not just one.<BR><BR>&nbsp; The U/V system avoids this problem since its axes are also axes of<BR>unit translational symmetry of the hex grid.&nbsp; If you are doing<BR>odd/even cases for the distance calculation in U/V coordinates, it<BR>probably explains why you couldn't get my algorithm to work.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; What I found to be true with the X/Y co-ordinate system is that not<BR>&gt; only does it matter whether the starting hex is odd or even, but it<BR>&gt; also matters whether the distance itself is odd or even.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Yes, because you need to apply the odd/even case to the destination<BR>hex as well as the originating hex.&nbsp; This makes for very messy code<BR>and is best avoided.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; Oddly enough?&nbsp; The *only* times this came into play were in the<BR>&gt; arcs described by either the #6 arc or the #3 arc if one assumes<BR>&gt; that the top hex side is the #1 arc.&nbsp; Why this is true, I don't<BR>&gt; know.<BR><BR>&nbsp; I'm not sure what you mean here -- the 6 cases of arc segments of<BR>constant radius are in the directions top-left, top-right, right,<BR>bottom-right, bottom-left, and left.&nbsp; (The 6 corners can be considered<BR>to belong to either or both arc segments depending upon what sort of<BR>calculation you are doing).&nbsp; So when you say "the top hex side is the<BR>#1 arc", I don't know what you mean.&nbsp; The top hex side is a corner,<BR>not an arc.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 23:19:17 -0500 (EST)<BR>From: Dalton Spence &lt;dalton.spence@hwcn.org&gt;<BR>Subject: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering<BR><BR>A lot of civil engineering seems to involve digging or blasting large<BR>holes in the ground or rock. One of the more intriguing ideas I've had<BR>recently involves the use of Traveller starship weaponry to jumpstart<BR>small or large scale CE projects such as starport construction. (Yes,<BR>this ties into my "How big is my crater?" thread.) Unfortunately I've<BR>been unable to find information on translating various types of weapon<BR>damage from GURPS HP into quantities of earth or rock loosened, moved<BR>or destroyed. (There was an equation for determining impact crater<BR>diameters, but it was derived from nuclear test site data.) Any ideas?<BR><BR>- --<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; @==================================================@<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. &lt;dalton.spence@hwcn.org&gt; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium&nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; Urgent! Aladdin takes the electric penguin and&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; took no notice of London. FNORD!&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; @==================================================@<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 23:19:19 -0500 (EST)<BR>From: Dalton Spence &lt;dalton.spence@hwcn.org&gt;<BR>Subject: EASI Tech: Smart Interfaces for Primitive Users<BR><BR>The skill penalties for using advanced tech (B185) assume that its<BR>operating characteristics would be substantially different than for<BR>the equivalent device at the character's own tech level. While this<BR>has been true in the past, it is now possible to design equipment<BR>with advanced capabilities that can use the same control systems as<BR>their lower tech ancestors. Here is my solution to that conumdrum.<BR><BR>Equipment with EASI (Emulated Alternate Systems Interface) controls<BR>make operator obsolescence and mandatory retraining a thing of the<BR>past, and are extremely useful in settings where PCs of different<BR>tech levels must share the same ultratech gadgets. Implementing EASI<BR>depends on the control mechanism; mechanical and electronic ones<BR>require physical adapters while computerized ones use EASI software.<BR>Unless the setting is inherently multi-tech (eg. Traveller), EASI<BR>devices can not be found over-the-counter, but require some custom<BR>alternations performed by skilled professionals.<BR><BR>EASI isn't cheap; each alternate interface available (*including*<BR>the native one) should double the current retail price. While the<BR>functions that are *quantitatively* increased (such as range, power,<BR>damage, battery life, etc.) can be accessed with no penalty, totally<BR>*new* functions that are above the EASI's nominal tech level (ie.<BR>advanced laser beam types, or Jump Level in Traveller) cannot be<BR>used at all. Switching to a different operating TL requies 1 second<BR>for software EASIs, while changing hardware EASIs requires the same<BR>time as changing the device's power cell (see sibebar CII p.16).<BR><BR>Comments please?<BR><BR>- -- <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; @==================================================@<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. &lt;dalton.spence@hwcn.org&gt; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium&nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | The blueprint from the Bat Cave will go to Mars. |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; FNORD!&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; @==================================================@<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 21:03:42 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>Rob Davenport &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;On 2 Mar 01, at 16:35, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; I'm sure that the mass market Imperial beers would be dehydrated<BR>&gt; &gt; at the factory and then reconcentrated with water at the factory.<BR>&gt; &gt; They'd probably taste like it too.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;With the cost of transportation being so much, if local ingredients<BR>&gt;(or materials for things other than beer) can be found/made, wouldn't<BR>&gt;it be more likely to have franchises that distribute the Secret<BR>&gt;Formulae around?&nbsp; At least as the scale gets beyond a sector or so.<BR><BR>Rob, read the sidebar about "Brubek's" in "GT: Starports", page 86. You'll<BR>note that it (Brubek's) is an Imperium-wide chain and they ship their beer<BR>as a stable concentrate, to be reconstituted on site.&nbsp; Now, I not saying that<BR>what you describe isn't done, but it would seem that the alternative method<BR>is canon, at least for the largest chain of that type in the Imperium.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:45:04 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering<BR><BR>Dalton Spence wrote:<BR>&gt; A lot of civil engineering seems to involve digging or blasting large<BR>&gt; holes in the ground or rock. One of the more intriguing ideas I've had<BR>&gt; recently involves the use of Traveller starship weaponry to jumpstart<BR>&gt; small or large scale CE projects such as starport construction.<BR><BR>&nbsp; I'd say starship weaponry is usually the wrong tool for the job.<BR>Missiles are going to have obvious problems (not least of which is<BR>cost) as blasting devices.&nbsp; Meson guns are probably pretty poor at<BR>construction tasks, since they will probably make the site<BR>radioactive.&nbsp; Other particle beams may have the same problem, or have<BR>problems in atmosphere.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Lasers will almost certainly be pulsed and rapid-fire in weapon<BR>systems, so they may have some promise.&nbsp; However, they would probably<BR>be optimised for penetration of relatively thin armour rather than<BR>bulk material removal or cutting.&nbsp; No starship weapon I can think of<BR>will solve the problem of removing rubble from the resulting holes.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Blowing things up is pretty easy.&nbsp; Doing it accurately enough in<BR>ground of somewhat uncertain composition, getting rid of the mess, and<BR>making sure you don't destroy anything unintentionally is rather<BR>harder.&nbsp; For example, you don't want to shatter the bedrock to<BR>uncertain depth when digging out foundations.<BR><BR>&nbsp; In short, I don't think starship weaponry is going to help much, in<BR>much the same way as tank guns and air-to-ground missiles don't get<BR>used much in existing civil engineering.&nbsp; In general, using the right<BR>tool for the job is much more productive.<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:12:00 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: EASI Tech: Smart Interfaces for Primitive Users<BR><BR>Dalton Spence wrote:<BR>&gt; EASI isn't cheap; each alternate interface available (*including*<BR>&gt; the native one) should double the current retail price.<BR><BR>&nbsp; So a device with just a native interface and a single alternative<BR>costs four times as much?&nbsp; Remind me why I don't just buy two devices<BR>again, at half the cost?&nbsp; Or even four normal ones for the same price?<BR><BR>&nbsp; Particularly for computerised devices, the cost seems rather high<BR>for the added functionality.&nbsp; Besides, if it only works on devices<BR>that exist at the lower TL, why weren't the high-TL devices designed<BR>to be compatible?<BR><BR>&nbsp; At worst, the high-TL device is just going to have a minor<BR>familiarity penalty that will quickly disappear, like any other<BR>unfamiliar version of the same type of device.&nbsp; If anything, it will<BR>probably be *easier* to use once familiarity is achieved (if even<BR>necessary).&nbsp; Modern devices tend to be much more accurate and<BR>self-calibrating than older devices.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Of course, part of the problem is that the developments in future<BR>Traveller tech levels are so much less per TL than past tech levels.<BR>There is nothing to indicate that TTL F is anywhere near as advanced<BR>over TTL A as TTL A is over TTL 5.&nbsp; In fact, from the descriptions and<BR>devices, I'd say the difference between TTL F and TTL A is about the<BR>same as the difference between late and early 1900's (one TL in GURPS<BR>terms).<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:18:13 +0800<BR>From: Nattrass &lt;wulfren@iinet.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project<BR><BR>Ahh VB<BR>The Goon of Beer<BR><BR>*warm feeling*<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:49:56 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>Russell Bornschlegel wrote :<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; While licensing of programmers might be a good thing for a few<BR>&gt; life-critical sorts of applications -- air traffic control, computer<BR>&gt; assisted brain surgery, nuclear power plants -- I don't see what<BR>&gt; harm can be done by writing buggy programs in the privacy of one's<BR>&gt; own home.<BR><BR>Melissa, Anna Kournikova.....<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; It really seems as if you're basing your opinions on VB primarily on<BR>&gt; your memories of classic BASIC.<BR><BR>I would doubt it. BASIC is a great language, it's much better than Visual<BR>Basic.<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; Secondly, if you think VB is so evil, and care so much about the<BR>&gt; future of programming, "VB is for children" is an illogical<BR>&gt; attitude.<BR><BR>Agreed. They should be taught Jade, or if you want a more well known<BR>language, Java.<BR><BR>&gt; The computer industry, today, is moving too fast for licensing to be<BR>&gt; at all sensible. What languages are going to be important in ten<BR>&gt; years? What courses could I have taken in college in 1988 that would<BR>&gt; have best prepared me to do web development work today?[1]<BR><BR>Irreleveant. A licensed programmer does not have to be licensed for a<BR>language or a product, just as general practioner is not licensed for a<BR>particular diagnostic tool or drug.<BR><BR>They need to be licensed as being professional programers who follow best<BR>development practices (Which fundamentally haven't changed in twenty or more<BR>years, despite the claims of methodology vendors).<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:10:51 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program<BR><BR>On 5 Mar 2001, at 19:49, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Secondly, if you think VB is so evil, and care so much about the<BR>&gt; &gt; future of programming, "VB is for children" is an illogical<BR>&gt; &gt; attitude.<BR><BR>&gt; Agreed. They should be taught Jade, or if you want a more well known<BR>&gt; language, Java.<BR><BR>I can't agree too strongly here. The good habits Jade forced on me have <BR>lasted into less vigorous languages such as Delphi and C++. If you want to <BR>teach someone good OO programming, you can't go far wrong with Jade. <BR>Unfortunately, nobody's heard of it outside NZ.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:20 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEKJFNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>Here in the UK, the concept of a 'license to program' has been kicked <BR>about, but it is by and large seen to be unworkable.<BR><BR>We have 'professional bodies' such as the British Computer Society and the <BR>Institution of Analysts and Programmers, which admit people to membership <BR>on the strength of qualifications and experience. BCS members with <BR>suitable academic backgrounds may also become Chartered Engineers. <BR>However, these bodies include a very small fraction of those who actually <BR>program for a living, let alone all those folks who compute for pleasure. <BR>Any attempt to require everybody working in the industry to join one of <BR>these bodies would cause the whole thing to grind to a halt.<BR><BR>There's also the question of suitability of the organisations, and the <BR>fact that programming is one of those trades where people get into it by <BR>many and diverse means. Take me. I'm an academic botanist by training. I <BR>started as a 'trainee programmer' in a small software house one day, or at <BR>least, that's how I was hired. I turned up for the first day at work to <BR>discover that the other 2 programmers employed there had been fired for <BR>attempting to rip off the code, and the chap who'd been hired as my senior <BR>to replace them had turned down the job at the last minute. Ooops. Talk <BR>about a fast learning situation :-)<BR><BR>That was over 10 years ago. I've been in the profession ever since, <BR>programming, technical author and web-head - and I am only now beginning <BR>to reach the stage where I am ready to go for MBCS as my degrees are 'in <BR>the wrong subject'. <BR><BR>For my sins, I'm a member of the Council (governing body) of the <BR>Institution of Analysts and Programmers. Virtually all the people on the <BR>Council have either non-computing degrees or no degree at all. Yet they <BR>are all professional (in every sense of the word) programmers.<BR><BR>A few thoughts.<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR>(No, I am not going to add my post-nominals, it would give Mr Whipsnade <BR>cramp when he responded!)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-za03.mx.aol.com (rly-za03.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.99]) by air-za03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Mar 2001 04:23:12 1900<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Mar 2001 04:22:55 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id EAA64245;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 04:22:22 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 5 Mar 2001 04:21:09 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id EAA64176<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 04:21:09 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 04:21:09 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103050921.EAA64176@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, March 5 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3767<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3762<BR>RE: Sapiens<BR>Re: License To Program<BR>Note for Rockheads<BR>Re: License To Program<BR>Re: Scout Brew logo...<BR>RE: Sapiens<BR>Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Re: Sapiens<BR>Re: Sapiens<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering<BR>Re: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering<BR>Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>Re: sapiens<BR>Re: sapiens<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" <BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:08:01 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ian=20Cooper?= &lt;ian_hammond_cooper@yahoo.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3762<BR><BR>Apologies for interrupting, but does anyone have the<BR>snail mail address for Roger Sanger, who was trying to<BR>sell some of his Traveller material through this list,<BR>as I have something to send him.<BR><BR>Ian<BR><BR>____________________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk<BR>or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 02:26:55 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR>H. Neanderthalensis was around c. 300,000 B.C., as, evidently were a<BR>few surviving H. Erectus (some evidence has them surviving till about<BR>50,000 B.C. in parts of Asia).<BR><BR>IIRC, Cro Magnon was around at this time, too.&nbsp; If so, that is the<BR>critter the Ancients used as DNA analysis indicates that H.<BR>Neanderthalensis was not genetically similar enough to breed<BR>successfully with H. Sapiens.<BR><BR>But, this is not to say that explorers won't come across populations<BR>descended from H. Neanderthalensis or even H. Erectus somewhere out<BR>there.&nbsp; Canon be damned, this would make a far more interesting<BR>universe ...<BR><BR>- --- Jeff &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until<BR>&gt; roughly<BR>&gt; 120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between<BR>&gt; the<BR>&gt; ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the<BR>&gt; assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens<BR>&gt; Sapiens, or<BR>&gt; did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human<BR>&gt; populations<BR>&gt; they took?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Jeffrey Yin<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jeff<BR>&gt; Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 6:08 PM<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Heh. I was just going over the dates again, and realized (Not for the<BR>&gt; first<BR>&gt; time, I hope) that the H.Sapiens were not the only species of<BR>&gt; hominid, if<BR>&gt; they even evolved on earth by 395,000 BC. (Only my GT stuff is here,<BR>&gt; but I'm<BR>&gt; pretty sure it is the same in each addition.)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Jeffrey Yin<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Russell<BR>&gt; Bornschlegel<BR>&gt; Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:40 PM<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Jeffrey Yin wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.<BR>&gt; &gt; Sapiens?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &lt;smartass&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Do you have some other species of human in mind?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &lt;/smartass&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; -Russell B<BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:07:28 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: License To Program<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>&gt; I can't agree too strongly here. The good habits Jade forced on me<BR>&gt; have lasted into less vigorous languages such as Delphi and C++. If<BR>&gt; you want to teach someone good OO programming, you can't go far<BR>&gt; wrong with Jade.&nbsp; Unfortunately, nobody's heard of it outside NZ.<BR><BR>&nbsp; I've heard of Jade, but I'm not sure whether it's the same Jade<BR>you've used.&nbsp; The one I'm thinking of is a parallel-processing<BR>extension to C.&nbsp; There is also a Lisp-variant language called Jade,<BR>but that runs an editor and I don't have any experience with it.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Is there a third Jade?<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:22:28 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Note for Rockheads<BR><BR>Hi.<BR><BR>The Gamasutra web site at http://www.gamasutra.com/ has the first in a series of articles on procedurally generated universes online.<BR><BR>If you can read C++ (or understand maths), it's well worth a look. The author is involved in a re-write of Elite.<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/dylan<BR>"The idea behind Dylan-to offer a range of dynamism appropriate to each piece of an application-feels right, and after using Dylan you will become frustrated with C++ and Java." - Software Development Magazine. <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:29:18 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: License To Program<BR><BR>On 5 Mar 2001, at 22:07, Timothy Little wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've heard of Jade, but I'm not sure whether it's the same Jade<BR>&gt; you've used.&nbsp; The one I'm thinking of is a parallel-processing<BR>&gt; extension to C.&nbsp; There is also a Lisp-variant language called Jade,<BR>&gt; but that runs an editor and I don't have any experience with it.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Is there a third Jade?<BR><BR>The one I'm referring to is an OO language. Try http://www.jade.co.nz<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 06:52:13 -0600<BR>From: "D. Smart" &lt;dsmart@imagin.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Scout Brew logo...<BR><BR>That's it. The logo just became the official nose art<BR>on an NPC's command scoutships. The ship's name:<BR><BR>"Scout's Honor"<BR><BR>(Ah, memories of my time in the Boy Scouts of America)<BR><BR>David<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 08:15:54 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR>&gt;Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly <BR>&gt;120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the <BR>&gt;ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the <BR>&gt;assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens, <BR>&gt;or did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations <BR>&gt;they took?<BR><BR>Or they took them, they evolved into H. Sapiens somewhere else, then they <BR>brought some back.<BR><BR>None of these theories can be "true", though. Traveller canon asserts that <BR>the Ancients came to Terra in -300,000, and they found some H. Sapiens (see <BR>GT: Rim of Fire, page 39, for example -- where it says so in so many words). <BR>Regardless of when our species evolved in the real world, in the Traveller <BR>universe it existed three hundred thousand years ago.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:05:52 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>On 5 Mar 2001, at 11:55, Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>&gt; &lt;following interesting news story quote&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Siemen hopes to succeed where other failed by injecting heated and<BR>&gt; &gt; magnetized hydrogen into a 10-inch long, 3.5 inch-wide cylinder and<BR>&gt; &gt; then shooting a 10-million amp current into the can, which collapses<BR>&gt; &gt; and crushes its contents.<BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; ObTrav: Mr. Fusion, anyone?<BR>&gt; Sadly, not quite as compact as that, given the requirement for a 10MA<BR>&gt; current.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The best bet in the near term would seem to be inertial confinement fusion<BR>&gt; in Sandia's proposed X-1 X-ray source (~2010s).<BR>&gt; Tokamak stuff is problematic, given the lack of financial support for it (is<BR>&gt; the U.S. going to chip in again)?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Sigh. Maybe Leslie Woods is right, and it's not possible to achieve<BR>&gt; high-yield fusion at all. I hope he's wrong, though.<BR><BR>Me too, although after reading Dr.Forward's "Indistinguishable from <BR>Magic" (revision of his "Beyond Magic" IIRC), it sounded like <BR>antimatter might be a potential power source (however non-canon).<BR><BR>My question about the device in the article is - if it crushes the can,<BR>it's pretty much a one-shot deal, no?&nbsp; Or at least you start needing a <BR>lot of cans and/or crushers to get long-term power and thus not be <BR>likely for use in ships.<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:<BR>Gramen artificiosum odi.&nbsp; --&nbsp; I hate Astroturf.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 07:27:56 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR>At 05:39 PM 03/04/01 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H. <BR>&gt;&gt; Sapiens?<BR><BR>&gt;Do you have some other species of human in mind?<BR><BR>H. Erectus.&nbsp; Still fairly common in the proper time frame.<BR><BR>Yes, I'm ignoring the smartass tags.&nbsp; :)<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes<BR>reliable internet access difficult to obtain.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Xaonon, in alt.atheism<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:38:35 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen write:<BR>&gt;&gt;Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.Sapiens?<BR>&gt;No explanations. It is simply stated as a fact. And subsequent Traveller<BR>authors<BR>&gt;have been unable to resist the temptation to introduce some descendants of<BR>&gt;transplanted human populations that has drifted too far to be interfertile with<BR>&gt;the rest, so there is a contradiction there.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Probably the best known definition of a species is the biological<BR>species<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; concept: "Species are groups of actually or potentially interbreeding<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; populations that are reproductively isolated from other such<BR>groups."&nbsp; It<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; should be kept in mind that this is not the only definition, and<BR>there are<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; some problems with it.&nbsp; How do you classify species in which there is no<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; sexual reproduction?&nbsp; Are sterile individuals members of a broad<BR>species?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; What about cases in which population A breeds with population B (same<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; species), and population B breeds with population C (same species), but<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; population A cannot breed with population C (different species)?&nbsp; It<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; happens.&nbsp; Then there are chronospecies...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; All I am trying to say is that you have some latitude in the use of Homo<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; sapiens.<BR><BR>&gt;My own fix IMTU is to introduce a new designation: Hominid races. Hominid races<BR>&gt;are those that are no longer interfertile with the human races. That way all<BR>&gt;human races are Homo sapiens because the _definition_ of a human race is to be<BR>&gt;Homo sapiens. Those that are not are not human but hominid races[*].<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Very reasonable.&nbsp; Homonid refers to H. sapiens along with its recent<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ancestors (back to the Astralopithecines) and close cousins (none of<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; which survive).&nbsp; By the biological species definition, your Hominid<BR>"races"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; would technically be species, but shading the language is nothing new.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:07:42 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>On 4 Mar 2001, at 21:03, Mark F. Cook wrote:<BR>&gt; Rob Davenport &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt; writes:<BR>&gt; &gt;With the cost of transportation being so much, if local ingredients<BR>&gt; &gt;(or materials for things other than beer) can be found/made, wouldn't<BR>&gt; &gt;it be more likely to have franchises that distribute the Secret<BR>&gt; &gt;Formulae around?&nbsp; At least as the scale gets beyond a sector or so.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Rob, read the sidebar about "Brubek's" in "GT: Starports", page 86. You'll<BR>&gt; note that it (Brubek's) is an Imperium-wide chain and they ship their beer<BR>&gt; as a stable concentrate, to be reconstituted on site.&nbsp; Now, I not saying that<BR>&gt; what you describe isn't done, but it would seem that the alternative method<BR>&gt; is canon, at least for the largest chain of that type in the Imperium.<BR><BR>Will do - as soon as I get GT:Starports.&nbsp; :) <BR><BR>I'd *rather* there be more reasons for trading, hauling around physical <BR>material, but that thought popped into my head anyway.&nbsp; Actually, I <BR>would think that there'd be some of both.&nbsp; Some companies would send <BR>around/license the info on how, but it would be cheaper and of less <BR>quality - especially if local ability to 'replicate' the needed <BR>ingredients/materials in not advanced.&nbsp; The first fits of trade with <BR>worlds out in the boonies, the unexplored reaches, might use this to <BR>maximize the returns on their trips, selling more of the info without <BR>having to lug in megatons of material.&nbsp; As trade matured, the desire <BR>for "the real thing" would make commerce in physical materials more <BR>economical.<BR>So after a long adventure on some rockball colony with only locally <BR>reprocessed/repurified ingredients in the local brew, getting back to <BR>"civilization" with a real establishment that serves *real* Scout Brew<BR>would be a welcome relief.<BR><BR>(Well, it's an idea.&nbsp; Might add some color.)<BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:<BR>Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam<BR>elenganter concinnatur!<BR>Those green pants go so well with that pink shirt and the plaid jacket!<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:15:30 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR>&gt;Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly<BR>&gt;120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the<BR>&gt;ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the<BR>&gt;assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens, or<BR>&gt;did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations<BR>&gt;they took?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I don't think that canon ever specifies that all "Humaniti" are<BR>members of<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Homo sapiens sapiens (FYI: Homo is always capitalized, sapiens never<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; is.&nbsp; Of course, Homo sapiens should be italicised or at least<BR>underlined).<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; :)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As you point out, H. sapiens sapiens is considered to have shown up<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; about 100,000 years ago, but H. sapiens appears to have been around<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; since about 300,000 years ago.&nbsp; Thus it may be proposed that all the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; descendents of those transported by the Ancients are H. sapiens but<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; not H. sapiens sapiens.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:12:51 -0000<BR>From: "Alistair J. R. Young" &lt;avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Secondly, if you think VB is so evil, and care so much about the<BR>&gt; &gt; future of programming, "VB is for children" is an illogical<BR>&gt; &gt; attitude.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Agreed. They should be taught Jade, or if you want a more well known<BR>&gt; language, Java.<BR><BR>I won't have a chance to look at Jade for about another four hours, but<BR>please don't let people start with Java (or any other garbage-collected<BR>language, for that matter). It's absolutely dire what languages like<BR>that, and other features that pick up the programmer's mess for him, can<BR>do to the skill set of a beginner.<BR><BR>If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start<BR>with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and<BR>pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them<BR>behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.<BR><BR>Anything else, and you produce people who don't have an appreciation for<BR>how the system actually works; rather, they're stuck with magic-boxism<BR>and when the underlying system comes back at them, they're lost at sea.<BR>And the poor bastard who has to clean up the ensuing mess is *really*<BR>screwed.<BR><BR>Alistair<BR>(Been there, done that, got the lousy disposition to prove it...)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:19:24 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering<BR><BR>Dalton Spence writes:<BR>&gt;A lot of civil engineering seems to involve digging or blasting large<BR>&gt;holes in the ground or rock. One of the more intriguing ideas I've had<BR>&gt;recently involves the use of Traveller starship weaponry to jumpstart<BR>&gt;small or large scale CE projects such as starport construction.<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; There was that refit of old type S Scout/Couriers for mining<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (sorry, I cannot remember the reference).&nbsp; It mounted a<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mining laser in the turret, presumable optimized for cutting<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; into stuff and therefore inferior to standard lasers in combat.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I would imagine that the weapons lasers would be less<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; effective for mining (or engineering).<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:39:18 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering<BR><BR>On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Timothy Little wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; In short, I don't think starship weaponry is going to help much, in<BR>&gt; much the same way as tank guns and air-to-ground missiles don't get<BR>&gt; used much in existing civil engineering.&nbsp; In general, using the right<BR>&gt; tool for the job is much more productive.<BR><BR>Of course, at this point, potential referees everywhere will get this<BR>distant look in their eyes as they try to imagine situations where the<BR>characters are in the wilderness or on a low-tech world and absolutely,<BR>positively have to engage in civil engineering.&nbsp; Their starship and its<BR>laser turrets, of course, are the closest things they have to the right<BR>tool for the job, and there's no time to jump out and get something<BR>better.<BR>Example: on a low-tech world, a volcano has erupted and the lava flow is<BR>headed for the nearby village.&nbsp; The PCs want to help, because they're such<BR>nice guys (or they've been offered a worthwhile reward).&nbsp; Can they dig a<BR>trench to divert the flow with their starship's lasers?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Greg Kettler<BR><BR>"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you<BR>may not actually need an explicit loop exit.&nbsp; The loop will be terminated<BR>automatically at the appropriate moment."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 08:49:45 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>Rob Davenport writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Me too, although after reading Dr.Forward's "Indistinguishable from <BR>&gt; Magic" (revision of his "Beyond Magic" IIRC), it sounded like <BR>&gt; antimatter might be a potential power source (however non-canon).<BR><BR>Dunno what Forward actually says, but antimatter isn't a power source unless<BR>you find a free supply of it somewhere.&nbsp; It's possibly a power storage <BR>mechanism if antimatter production could be made a _lot_ more efficient.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 08:52:20 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Yep. They had an 'out of memory' error the other day. First he gave it<BR>&gt; another&nbsp; 4gigs (as far as anyone could tell it shouldn't have been out of<BR>&gt; memory).&nbsp; Nothing. Gave it another 10gigs. Nothing. Gave it another 40gigs.<BR>&gt; Went fine,&nbsp; and they even got some of it back.<BR><BR>My favorite oracle story was trying to install 8i (I think) and discovering<BR>that the java-based installer wouldn't run with less than 512MB of memory <BR>and a gig of swap...<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:01:18 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations<BR>taken evolve into the same specie?<BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Ian Ferguson<BR>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 7:16 AM<BR>To: traveller@ient.com<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR>&gt;Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly<BR>&gt;120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the<BR>&gt;ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the<BR>&gt;assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens,<BR>or<BR>&gt;did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations<BR>&gt;they took?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I don't think that canon ever specifies that all "Humaniti" are<BR>members of<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Homo sapiens sapiens (FYI: Homo is always capitalized, sapiens never<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; is.&nbsp; Of course, Homo sapiens should be italicised or at least<BR>underlined).<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; :)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As you point out, H. sapiens sapiens is considered to have shown up<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; about 100,000 years ago, but H. sapiens appears to have been around<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; since about 300,000 years ago.&nbsp; Thus it may be proposed that all the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; descendents of those transported by the Ancients are H. sapiens but<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; not H. sapiens sapiens.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:10:04 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: sapiens<BR><BR>The same reason you and I did: Ancients genetic manipulation. The<BR>Solomani aren't "root stock", no matter how much they believe it.<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>Jeff wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations<BR>&gt; taken evolve into the same specie?<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei, <BR>Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."<BR>- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:13:33 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: sapiens<BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR>&gt; Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations<BR>&gt; taken evolve into the same specie?<BR><BR>Well, if they were all the same species to start with, it isn't too surprising<BR>that they'd remain the same species (it also wouldn't be too surprising if<BR>they didn't, but...)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:57:56 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>Well, that's the question. Did they? Even if they did, in all the&nbsp; four<BR>hundred thousand years you would expect greater genetic varaiations then<BR>merely "subspecies" status as currently exists.&nbsp; And if they did, why<BR>experiment with only archaic Homo sapiens? I am only an enthusiast, and no<BR>where near an expert, but I seem to recall that the neanderthal culture was<BR>much more developed at the time, and would seem like a better choice.<BR>Furthermore, as has already been pointed out, erectus survived on the ilse<BR>of java until as recently as perhaps 50,000 B.C. In the interest of study,<BR>it would seem reasonable that the ancients might make use of these other<BR>hominids.<BR><BR>Jeff<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Rob Myers<BR>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 9:10 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: sapiens<BR><BR><BR>The same reason you and I did: Ancients genetic manipulation. The<BR>Solomani aren't "root stock", no matter how much they believe it.<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>Jeff wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations<BR>&gt; taken evolve into the same specie?<BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/<BR>"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,<BR>Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."<BR>- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:57:55 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>To expect none of the forty something to drift far enough to warrant a new<BR>species in four hundred thousand years seems unlikely, given the context of<BR>human evolution.<BR><BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Anthony Jackson<BR>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 9:14 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Cc: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: sapiens<BR><BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR>&gt; Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations<BR>&gt; taken evolve into the same specie?<BR><BR>Well, if they were all the same species to start with, it isn't too<BR>surprising<BR>that they'd remain the same species (it also wouldn't be too surprising if<BR>they didn't, but...)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:22:02 -0800<BR>From: Russell Bornschlegel &lt;kaleja@estarcion.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>&gt; Russell Bornschlegel wrote :<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; While licensing of programmers might be a good thing for a few<BR>&gt; &gt; life-critical sorts of applications -- air traffic control, computer<BR>&gt; &gt; assisted brain surgery, nuclear power plants -- I don't see what<BR>&gt; &gt; harm can be done by writing buggy programs in the privacy of one's<BR>&gt; &gt; own home.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Melissa, Anna Kournikova.....<BR><BR>Touche', but it's not as if a licensed programmer couldn't write a <BR>virus. Unless you're in support of licensing individual copies of <BR>compilers to make it impossible to write a program without its <BR>authorship being traced, which has frightening implications for <BR>privacy and free speech, in my opinion -- and I'm not even a big <BR>Open Source/Free Software Zealot (a sympathizer, perhaps, to some<BR>extent, but not a zealot). <BR><BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; It really seems as if you're basing your opinions on VB primarily on<BR>&gt; &gt; your memories of classic BASIC.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I would doubt it. BASIC is a great language, it's much better than Visual<BR>&gt; Basic.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Doesn't VB have reasonable things like parametrized subroutines and<BR>named labels in it? What makes BASIC "great" and better than VB, <BR>in your opinion?<BR><BR>&gt; Irreleveant. A licensed programmer does not have to be licensed for a<BR>&gt; language or a product, just as general practioner is not licensed for a<BR>&gt; particular diagnostic tool or drug.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; They need to be licensed as being professional programers who follow best<BR>&gt; development practices (Which fundamentally haven't changed in twenty or more<BR>&gt; years, despite the claims of methodology vendors). <BR><BR>The industry doesn't give a flying rat's ass about best development <BR>practices. <BR><BR>- -Russell B<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:22:06 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" <BR><BR>&gt;From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;But I live in San Francisco, where we have "vegans":&nbsp; <BR><BR>Oh, yeah, veganism.&nbsp; I myself cut all the ovo and almost all of the lacto<BR>out of my diet, so I'm pretty close to a vegan now.&nbsp; I describe myself as<BR>an ichthyoornithocarnovegetarian.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:56:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Touche', but it's not as if a licensed programmer couldn't write a <BR>&gt; virus. Unless you're in support of licensing individual copies of <BR>&gt; compilers to make it impossible to write a program without its <BR>&gt; authorship being traced, which has frightening implications for <BR>&gt; privacy and free speech, in my opinion -- and I'm not even a big <BR>&gt; Open Source/Free Software Zealot (a sympathizer, perhaps, to some<BR>&gt; extent, but not a zealot). <BR><BR>Actually the better the programmer, the worse the virus is liable to be.<BR>A virus written by a 12 year old in a kludgy language that is horribly<BR>common has the advantage of being relatively easy to figure out, I would<BR>think.<BR><BR>Kiri&nbsp; ^_^<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3767<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (rly-yc04.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.36]) by air-yc03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:00:22 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:59:50 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA85910;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:57:46 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:57:00 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA85856<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:56:59 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:56:59 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103051856.NAA85856@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3767<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3768</B></TD></TR>
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<TD>3/5/01 12:52:11 PM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, March 5 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3768<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>Re: Traveller software project<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>Lasagna (was Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how...)<BR>RE: License To Program<BR>Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Re: License To Program<BR>RE: License To Program<BR>RE: Sapiens<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>RE: Sapiens<BR>Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>RE: License To Program<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3767<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:57:15 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Yep. They had an 'out of memory' error the other day. First he gave it<BR>&gt;&gt; another&nbsp; 4gigs (as far as anyone could tell it shouldn't have been out of<BR>&gt;&gt; memory).&nbsp; Nothing. Gave it another 10gigs. Nothing. Gave it another 40gigs.<BR>&gt;&gt; Went fine,&nbsp; and they even got some of it back.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; My favorite oracle story was trying to install 8i (I think) and discovering<BR>&gt; that the java-based installer wouldn't run with less than 512MB of memory <BR>&gt; and a gig of swap...<BR><BR>Then there had to be something seriously wrong with that system or <BR>installer...I've put 8i on P-133 NT boxen with a 2 gig drive, and 64 <BR>megs of RAM...it wasn't pretty, but it ran.<BR><BR>Well, walked. Crawled sluggishly is more like it....<BR><BR>Now with some of the off-the-wall things that Oracle can pack into an 8i <BR>install, I'd _almost_ believe it...but not stock 8i.<BR><BR>_Always_ custom install...<BR><BR>ObTrav...That jump 3 astrogation upgrade takes 3 times the amount of <BR>storage space you have. Why? Well they toss in an installer for AOL, <BR>demos for Windows 5674, Tomb Raider 876 (Lara's still around and looking <BR>real old by now ;-), etc...<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:58:29 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>WOW<BR><BR>I love it.<BR><BR>I really do. much better than what i envisioned. I think this is a winner.<BR>let me know what i owe you 8P<BR><BR>now to talk to jesse 8)<BR><BR>then to find a website 8P<BR><BR>Woot we are moving along. 8)<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Mark F. Cook [mailto:markc@peak.org]<BR>Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 8:44 PM<BR>To: Traveller Mail List<BR>Subject: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR><BR>OK, Bill.&nbsp; Here's my 2nd pass as a piece of nose-art for your Beowulf.<BR><BR>http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/ship_logo/<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:06:17 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Then there had to be something seriously wrong with that system or <BR>&gt; installer...I've put 8i on P-133 NT boxen with a 2 gig drive, and 64 <BR>&gt; megs of RAM...it wasn't pretty, but it ran.<BR><BR>Something really fishy with the installer, as far as we could tell.&nbsp; We <BR>didn't worry about it that much, that wasn't really underconfigured for <BR>what we were trying to do and we didn't much care about hunting it down.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 19:20:49 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>I did my first "real" programming in machine and assembly languages for real <BR>time satellite tracking and sensor systems. Boy, do I have an understanding <BR>of how things really work and no magic-boxism. The most interesting project <BR>involved self-modifying code; the program would rewrite parts of itself <BR>depending on what function it was to do. That was back in the days when the <BR>machines could not support all of the code that was needed. We learned to <BR>program very efficiently! Maybe programmers working on embedded systems <BR>still face some of the same problems.<BR><BR>I don't have the patience to do large projects in assembly anymore. I do <BR>hope that software engineering programs do include some assembly or machine <BR>language requirements so new programmers do learn how the computers really <BR>function at the 1 and 0 level.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Alistair J. R. Young" &lt;avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start<BR>&gt;with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and<BR>&gt;pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them<BR>&gt;behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Anything else, and you produce people who don't have an appreciation for<BR>&gt;how the system actually works; rather, they're stuck with magic-boxism<BR>&gt;and when the underlying system comes back at them, they're lost at sea.<BR>&gt;And the poor bastard who has to clean up the ensuing mess is *really*<BR>&gt;screwed.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Alistair<BR>&gt;(Been there, done that, got the lousy disposition to prove it...)<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:49:09 -0500<BR>From: "Walt Smith" &lt;firelock_ny@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Lasagna (was Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how...)<BR><BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;There are some lovely tofu-zucchini casseroles with tomato<BR>&gt;sauce out there that I might even enjoy if people didn't try to convince me <BR>&gt;that they were lasagna (which must have meat,<BR>&gt;and at least three kinds of cheese, in it.)<BR><BR>Actually, "lasagna" refers to the kind of pasta used - flat,<BR>wide strips.&nbsp; Therefore any dish made with lasagna pasta is<BR>correctly called "lasagna", but since so many people prepare<BR>it with cheese and meat it is quite right to specify that<BR>other ingredients have been used - "vegetarian lasagna"<BR>or "tofu-zucchini lasagna", just like you might specify<BR>"spaghetti with marinara sauce" or "linguini alfredo".<BR><BR>Walt Smith<BR>mmmmm....pasta!!&nbsp; :-)<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:54:03 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Secondly, if you think VB is so evil, and care so much about the<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; future of programming, "VB is for children" is an illogical<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; attitude.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Agreed. They should be taught Jade, or if you want a more well known<BR>&gt;&gt; language, Java.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I won't have a chance to look at Jade for about another four hours, but<BR>&gt;please don't let people start with Java (or any other garbage-collected<BR>&gt;language, for that matter). It's absolutely dire what languages like<BR>&gt;that, and other features that pick up the programmer's mess for him, can<BR>&gt;do to the skill set of a beginner.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start<BR>&gt;with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and<BR>&gt;pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them<BR>&gt;behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Anything else, and you produce people who don't have an appreciation for<BR>&gt;how the system actually works; rather, they're stuck with magic-boxism<BR>&gt;and when the underlying system comes back at them, they're lost at sea.<BR>&gt;And the poor bastard who has to clean up the ensuing mess is *really*<BR>&gt;screwed.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Alistair<BR>&gt;(Been there, done that, got the lousy disposition to prove it...)<BR><BR>It is amazing to me the arrogance of some people. Insisting that someone<BR>must learn about memory management, pointers or any other low level<BR>architecture in today's computing environment is like insisting that a<BR>carpenter must be able to make his own tools, or an electrician must be able<BR>to manufacture his own wire.<BR><BR>I've been programming for twenty years. I've written in assembler, and used<BR>everything from Fortran to COBOL to Basic, not to mention Forth, tcl, Motif,<BR>etc.<BR><BR>Now I'm primarily a user and my opinion is that most of my problems result<BR>from the inability of "professional" programmers to do what's really<BR>important to rolling out usable software. That's DOCUMENTATION!<BR>Documentation, help files, user guides, user oriented (as opposed to<BR>programmer oriented) interfaces, documented code, and use of unsuitable<BR>tools (you know, like using c to make a GUI.)<BR><BR>To say that "best development practices" haven't fundamentally changed in<BR>twenty or more years shows a basic lack of appreciation for the differences<BR>between 8-bit and 64-bit architecture, cheap memory and expensive memory,<BR>cheap storage and expensive storage. Insisting that a programmer use a<BR>klutzy first or second generation language "because they'll have a better<BR>appreciation of how the system actually works" smacks of elitism. (Surely<BR>something programmers have never been accused of.)<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>p.s. equating lines of code (LOC) to program usefulness is a facetious<BR>measurement. A single line of tcl can equate to dozens of lines of Motif,<BR>let alone C or C++. Sometimes the only thing more LOC indicate is that the<BR>programmer has made a bad choice of implementation language.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:13:23 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>Hello Anthony,<BR><BR>&gt;Dunno what Forward actually says, but antimatter isn't a power source unless<BR>&gt;you find a free supply of it somewhere.&nbsp; It's possibly a power storage <BR>&gt;mechanism if antimatter production could be made a _lot_ more efficient.<BR><BR>Forward says that antimatter production can be made more efficient with<BR>today's technolgy - and more efficient by a scale of what, 10?&nbsp; He also<BR>indicates that one should build solar arrays in space, and use the "free<BR>energy" to produce antimatter.&nbsp; The only thing that GURPS disagrees with<BR>him on is the storage container aspect.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:09:40 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: License To Program<BR><BR>Terry Carlino writes:<BR><BR>&gt; It is amazing to me the arrogance of some people. Insisting that someone<BR>&gt; must learn about memory management, pointers or any other low level<BR>&gt; architecture in today's computing environment is like insisting that a<BR>&gt; carpenter must be able to make his own tools, or an electrician must be<BR>&gt; able to manufacture his own wire.<BR><BR>Actually, it's more like requiring a carpenter to know about the properties<BR>of wood, or electrician about wire.&nbsp; I disagree that you need to learn to<BR>program in C/assembler to do this, but having some idea of what the machine <BR>is doing is good.<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Now I'm primarily a user and my opinion is that most of my problems result<BR>&gt; from the inability of "professional" programmers to do what's really<BR>&gt; important to rolling out usable software. That's DOCUMENTATION!<BR>&gt; Documentation, help files, user guides, user oriented (as opposed to<BR>&gt; programmer oriented) interfaces, documented code, and use of unsuitable<BR>&gt; tools (you know, like using c to make a GUI.)<BR><BR>Depends on which aspects of usable you're concerned with.&nbsp; Understanding the<BR>basics is mostly useful if you want to avoid having bloated code which requires<BR>10x the memory of another program that does the same thing.&nbsp; However, the<BR>truth is, for many applications (or parts of applications) it doesn't matter<BR>if its bloated, so what if it takes up a megabyte instead of 100k.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:21:50 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;It is amazing to me the arrogance of some people. Insisting that someone<BR>&gt;must learn about memory management, pointers or any other low level<BR>&gt;architecture in today's computing environment is like insisting that a<BR>&gt;carpenter must be able to make his own tools, or an electrician must be <BR>&gt;able<BR>&gt;to manufacture his own wire.<BR>&gt;<BR>Terry,<BR><BR>I'll agree with you that a programmer does not have to know how a computer <BR>or operating system works to be able to program. But, to use your carpenter <BR>analogy, knowing how the system "really" works is like the difference <BR>between a carpenter and woodworker. A woodworker can make, or at least <BR>maintain, his own tools. He has a better understanding of his tools, media, <BR>and craft, and can produce a more refined product.<BR><BR>I am in total disagreement with the concept of only "licensed" programmers <BR>being allowed to program. In my work, most scientists do at least some of <BR>their own programming for data analysis, etc. especially if it only needs to <BR>be run once. Fully mil-spec software is overkill for many applications. <BR>(Yes, I know the arguements that if it were done right the first time, large <BR>parts could be reused on future projects, but I don't have the time to wait <BR>for the first version.)<BR><BR>However, I do appreciate craftsmanship in any profession. Part of that <BR>craftsmanship involves understanding the tools and the history of the trade.<BR><BR>John<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:28:22 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 18:39:53 -0800<BR>&gt; From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until<BR>roughly<BR>&gt; 120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the<BR>&gt; ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the<BR>&gt; assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens,<BR>or<BR>&gt; did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations<BR>&gt; they took?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Jeffrey Yin<BR><BR>Hmm. Quite the three pipe problem Watson.<BR><BR>Lets try this on for size: (my appologies if this has been suggested<BR>already)<BR><BR>The Ancients stumble across earth c. 300,000 years ago and find a<BR>potentially<BR>usefull species (H.sap.) they create the genetic modifications that result<BR>in<BR>H. sap. sap. and seed these creatures throughout known space. On earth<BR>the uplifted servants of the Ancients are placed - for whatever reason - in<BR>cold sleep berths (perhaps durring the final war) in several different<BR>locations<BR>on the planet. Aproximately 100,000 years ago these people (our ancestors)<BR>are woken up. They go on to push asside the H. sap. neanderthal in short<BR>order.<BR><BR>This has the advantage of reconciling the eve theory and the apparent<BR>fact that H. sap. sap. arose virtually simultaneously in several disparate<BR>locations. The problems with this explanation are twofold. First what<BR>happened to the cold sleep chambers that our ancestors survived in?<BR>There should be at least some archaological remains of an ancients<BR>sight from only 100,000 years ago. Secondly why were our ancestors<BR>placed in cold sleep in the first place and how and why were they revived<BR>again?<BR><BR>This of course does absolutely nothing to explain why there hasn't been<BR>more genetic drift between the various human races over the last<BR>300 milenia. Perhaps once a species has achieved a certain level<BR>of intelligence the natural selection preasures that drive evolution<BR>become much less prominent? The theory being if you have the<BR>intelligence needed to figure out how to alter your environment there<BR>is less likelyhood that the environment will alter you. (I think Niven and<BR>Pournell tossed this out in "The Mote in Gods Eye" it might have another<BR>source though.)<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:28:14 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR>&gt;As you point out, H. sapiens sapiens is considered to have shown up<BR>&gt;about 100,000 years ago, but H. sapiens appears to have been around<BR>&gt;since about 300,000 years ago.&nbsp; Thus it may be proposed that all the<BR>&gt;descendents of those transported by the Ancients are H. sapiens but<BR>&gt;not H. sapiens sapiens.<BR>Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations<BR>taken evolve into the same specie?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As someone pointed out, as far as we can tell H. sapiens did<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; not evolve into a different species here on Terra, so it might not<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; have elsewhere (particularly if those pesky Ancient placed<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; them on worlds similar to Terra).<BR><BR>Jeff posts later:<BR>&gt;Well, that's the question. Did they? Even if they did, in all the&nbsp; four<BR>&gt;hundred thousand years you would expect greater genetic varaiations then<BR>&gt;merely "subspecies" status as currently exists.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Rates of speciation can be extremely variable.&nbsp; At the short end,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a new species of plant (reproductively isolated from all others) may<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; sometimes appear essentially instantly due to certain genetic<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; quirks.&nbsp; It has been estimated that 24 species of fruitfly have<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; evolved from a common ancestor within the past 800,000 years.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; We don't typically expect speciation to occur this rapidly, however,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and 3,000,000 years may be more typical.<BR><BR>&gt;And if they did, why<BR>&gt;experiment with only archaic Homo sapiens? I am only an enthusiast, and no<BR>&gt;where near an expert, but I seem to recall that the neanderthal culture was<BR>&gt;much more developed at the time, and would seem like a better choice.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The details are sketchy, and we may well be carrying around<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; neanderthal genes ourselves.&nbsp; They are (IIRC) currently considered<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a subspecies of H. sapiens.<BR><BR>&gt;Furthermore, as has already been pointed out, erectus survived on the ilse<BR>&gt;of java until as recently as perhaps 50,000 B.C. In the interest of study,<BR>&gt;it would seem reasonable that the ancients might make use of these other<BR>&gt;hominids.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I was hoping to avoid the subject of chronospecies&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Anthroplogists, paleontologists, evolutionary biologists and their<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ilk attempt to classify fossilized remains into species by various<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; traits such as size, shape, etc.&nbsp; It can sometimes be difficult to<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; distinguish species.&nbsp; (How different will lion and tiger bones look if<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; you have never seen the whole animals and only have a few<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; partial skeletons to go on?&nbsp; Now compare male and female lions.)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; If that wasn't hard enough, how do you distinguish two species<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; when one slowly evolves from the other?&nbsp; There were hominids<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that we now refer to as H. erectus, they had children who had<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; children who had children... until the children were H. sapiens.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; There may have been "H. erectus" who looked like "H. sapiens",<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; especially late in the transition, and "H. sapiens" who look like<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "H. erectus".<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The bottom line is that 300,000 years ago, "H. erectus" and<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; H. sapiens" may have been the same people. Of course, there<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; may also have been enclaves that were more erectus-like.<BR><BR>&gt;To expect none of the forty something to drift far enough to warrant a new<BR>&gt;species in four hundred thousand years seems unlikely, given the context of<BR>&gt;human evolution.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As I explain above, 400,000 years might be long enough for<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; speciation to occur, but it is not certain that it will have occured<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in that time.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:36:12 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>What color ya' want the stripes :)<BR>Jesse<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane<BR>&gt; Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 10:58 AM<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; WOW<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I love it.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I really do. much better than what i envisioned. I think this is a winner.<BR>&gt; let me know what i owe you 8P<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; now to talk to jesse 8)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; then to find a website 8P<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Woot we are moving along. 8)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Bill<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Mark F. Cook [mailto:markc@peak.org]<BR>&gt; Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 8:44 PM<BR>&gt; To: Traveller Mail List<BR>&gt; Subject: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; OK, Bill.&nbsp; Here's my 2nd pass as a piece of nose-art for your Beowulf.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/ship_logo/<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Mark C.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:43:26 -0800<BR>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR>Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; H. Neanderthalensis was around c. 300,000 B.C., as, evidently were a<BR>&gt; few surviving H. Erectus (some evidence has them surviving till about<BR>&gt; 50,000 B.C. in parts of Asia).<BR><BR>Not exactly.&nbsp; 300K BP you had Homo Erectus and Archaic Homo <BR>Sapiens (something that seemed to be an intermediate form <BR>between Homo Erectus and Homo Neanderthalensis).<BR><BR>&gt; IIRC, Cro Magnon was around at this time, too.&nbsp; If so, that is the<BR>&gt; critter the Ancients used as DNA analysis indicates that H.<BR>&gt; Neanderthalensis was not genetically similar enough to breed<BR>&gt; successfully with H. Sapiens.<BR><BR>Cro Magnon was far later.&nbsp; Also, I strongly suspect that the genetic <BR>data about Neanderthals not being cross fertile with our own <BR>ancestors is simply a mistake.&nbsp; There are a number of skeletons <BR>(specifically skulls) that come from regions with mixed populations <BR>and that appear to be intermediate types (almost certainly <BR>crossbreeds).&nbsp; Neanderthal is a very broad term, and the classic <BR>northern european ones have skeleton that appear to be far more <BR>divergent from us than the middle eastern ones were.&nbsp; I have no <BR>idea if Neanderthals from northern France could breed with Cro <BR>Magnons, but it looks *very* likely that Neanderthals from the <BR>middle east could.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Then again, this issue is currently a hot topic in archeology.<BR><BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:43:36 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Forward says that antimatter production can be made more efficient with<BR>&gt; today's technolgy - and more efficient by a scale of what, 10?&nbsp; He also<BR>&gt; indicates that one should build solar arrays in space, and use the "free<BR>&gt; energy" to produce antimatter.&nbsp; The only thing that GURPS disagrees with<BR>&gt; him on is the storage container aspect.<BR><BR>Factor of 10 isn't a very interesting improvement.&nbsp; 10 orders of magnitude<BR>would probably be sufficient for useful antimatter production.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:52:41 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program<BR><BR>Hello Terry,<BR>&nbsp; One of the reasons I've pretty much stopped commenting with regards to<BR>this thread is just what you mention: elitism.<BR><BR>&gt;It is amazing to me the arrogance of some people. Insisting that someone<BR>&gt;must learn about memory management, pointers or any other low level<BR>&gt;architecture in today's computing environment is like insisting that a<BR>&gt;carpenter must be able to make his own tools, or an electrician must be able<BR>&gt;to manufacture his own wire.<BR><BR>You've hit it in one Terry - arrogance.&nbsp; "I am a professional, and I hate<BR>VB.&nbsp; If you query all the professional programmers - you will see that none<BR>are willing to use VB voluntarily".&nbsp; It almost begs the question "If there<BR>is a programmer who likes VB, does that make him automatically an<BR>unprofessional programmer?"<BR><BR>I could go on and add more to this email, but I won't.&nbsp; It isn't worth it<BR>to me to continue discussing VB with people on this list.&nbsp; Those who are<BR>prepared to be helpful, I gratefully acknowledge your help and appreciate<BR>it.&nbsp; Those of you who are neutral to the issue, again, you have my thanks<BR>for being tolerant.&nbsp; The rest of you however...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:46:35 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;What color ya' want the stripes :)<BR>&gt;Jesse<BR>&gt;<BR>Bill,<BR><BR>I'm running a little slow on my version of your logo, but I do like Mark's. <BR>I did have a thought for the stripes. I have a font of Hawaiian petroglyphs <BR>that could be used on a stripe or as a "stripe" by themselves. For an <BR>example, look at:<BR>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/petroglyph.gif<BR><BR>John<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:48:58 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: William Robertson &lt;eviloverlord668@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3767<BR><BR>Long trailing response to several emails from a<BR>paleontology suffering from Yaskoydray-envy.<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 02:26:55 -0800 (PST)<BR>&gt; From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR>&gt; But, this is not to say that explorers won't come<BR>&gt; across populations<BR>&gt; descended from H. Neanderthalensis or even H.<BR>&gt; Erectus somewhere out<BR>&gt; there.&nbsp; Canon be damned, this would make a far more<BR>&gt; interesting<BR>&gt; universe ...<BR>&gt; <BR>Seems like "Missions of State" for T4 has a scenario<BR>with the Vrash (or something like that), a humanoid<BR>race descended from H. neanderthalensis.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Note:&nbsp; Yeah, I know a lot of Traveller-ites don't care<BR>much for T4 (myself included), but in amongst the<BR>various sourcebooks, there ARE some very interesting<BR>tidbits for other Traveller versions.<BR><BR>&gt; - --- Jeff &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;Is it the<BR>&gt; &gt; assertion that all species X naturally evolved<BR>&gt; into Homo Sapiens<BR>&gt; &gt; Sapiens, or<BR>&gt; &gt; did the ancients cause the same change in all(?)<BR>&gt; known human<BR>&gt; &gt; populations<BR>&gt; &gt; they took?<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Jeffrey Yin<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>Depends on which view of human evolution to which one<BR>adheres.&nbsp; The "Single Origin" hypothesis (one group<BR>evolved into H. sapiens sapiens) would suggest that<BR>the various groups of Humaniti deposited by the<BR>Ancients would have evolved in different directions. <BR>The "Multiple Origin" hypothesis (that modern H.<BR>sapiens arose independently in multiple locations)<BR>would suggest that Humaniti deposited by the Ancients<BR>would have all evolved in the same general direction.<BR><BR>From a purely "scientific" point of view, I've always<BR>liked the CT taxonomy - seems like the various<BR>versions of Humaniti were subspecies rather than fully<BR>differentiated species, although some (Suerrat, for<BR>example) would seem to have changed enough to be<BR>considered a separate species, as overall appearance<BR>might preclude mixing of Suerrat (fuzzy monkey) genes<BR>with more "conventional" species of Humaniti.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; &gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf<BR>&gt; Of Russell<BR>&gt; &gt; Bornschlegel<BR>&gt; &gt; Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:40 PM<BR>&gt; &gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Jeffrey Yin wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Are there any canon references as to why all<BR>&gt; human species are H.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sapiens?<BR>&gt; &gt; &lt;smartass&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Do you have some other species of human in mind?<BR>&gt; &gt; &lt;/smartass&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; -Russell B<BR><BR>No canon references as far as I can recall, but that's<BR>maybe not too unusual - perhaps H. neanderthalensis<BR>and H. erectus were not exactly what the Ancients were<BR>looking for in a (pet/worker/pest control expert/etc.)<BR>so only early H. sapiens samples were removed from<BR>Terra.<BR><BR>300,000-400,000 years ~might~ be enough time for H.<BR>sapiens to evolve into separate species - for<BR>shorter-lived species (rodents, for instance), it<BR>certainly is.&nbsp; Seems like H. sapiens has been around<BR>for at least this long.&nbsp; Subspecies have been proposed<BR>(Homo sapiens sapiens, for example) but I've never<BR>seen a consistent definition for these.&nbsp; Everyone uses<BR>the term differently (by everyone, I mean that<BR>biologists use the term differently).&nbsp; Throw in a good<BR>dose of layman input, then mix well with anthropology,<BR>archaeology and sociology and it gets even ~more~<BR>confusing.<BR><BR>At any rate, IIRC the old CT alien module for Zhodani<BR>indicated that the Zhos were a subspecies of Humaniti.<BR>Seems like MT stuff indicated that Vilani were also a<BR>subspecies.&nbsp; Subspecies are a little more<BR>differentiated than race.<BR><BR>In Traveller terms, Zhos a different number of teeth<BR>when compared to Terran humans, the Vilani are<BR>extraordinarily long-lived, the Darrians have wider<BR>hips, different version of melanin, and like the Zhos<BR>have altered biochemistry.&nbsp; This would indicate (at<BR>least by MY use of the term), that these are<BR>subspecies of Terran Humaniti (i.e. differences that<BR>go beyond simple hair and skin color).<BR><BR>Best regards,<BR>W.D. Robertson, M.S. (Biologist stranded on the<BR>floodplains of South Texas)<BR>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/9327/main.html<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3768<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xc01.mx.aol.com (rly-xc01.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.134]) by air-xc04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:52:11 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xc01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:51:40 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA91183;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:49:14 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:49:02 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA91137<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:49:02 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:49:02 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103052049.PAA91137@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3768<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, March 5 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3769<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: sapiens<BR>Location of QSDS and SSDS<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>OT: VB (was re: Traveller Software Project)<BR>Re: sapiens<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>Scout Brew &amp; Girl Scout Cookies...<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>RE: Sapiens<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR>Another Traveller adventure online<BR>Re: Sapiens<BR>Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:48:27 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>Despite how it may seem, I am *not* trying to be difficult. I am only a lay<BR>man. (I look over to talk origins for the sitings, by the way. If something<BR>there is flawed, you can bet I will be too.) I just think it would be<BR>interesting to have neanderthals ruling some world somewhere.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; "Rates of speciation can be extremely variable.&nbsp; At the &nbsp; &nbsp; short end, a new<BR>species of plant (reproductively isolated &nbsp; &nbsp; from all others) may sometimes<BR>appear essentially instantly &nbsp; &nbsp; due to certain genetic quirks.&nbsp; It has been<BR>estimated that &nbsp; &nbsp; 24 species of fruitfly have evolved from a common ancestor<BR>within the past 800,000 years. We don't typically expect &nbsp; &nbsp; speciation to<BR>occur this rapidly, however, and 3,000,000 &nbsp; &nbsp; years may be more typical."<BR><BR>Hmm. Sounds reasonable. However, a four hundred thousand year period saw the<BR>rise (and in some cases, fall) of archaic H.sapiens, H.sapiens<BR>neanderthalis, and H.sapiens. Three (possibly more, given the vagueness of<BR>the archaic H.sapiens status) is a pretty good rate of change, especially<BR>when compared with the fruitflies. (I would assume it takes less to speciate<BR>with less complex animals, though this would only be a bald assumption.)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; "The bottom line is that 300,000 years ago, "H.erectus" and &nbsp; &nbsp; "H.sapeins"<BR>may have beed the same people. . ."<BR><BR>Again, I would have to admit the validity of this statement. However, this<BR>is because the H.sapiens of 300,000 years ago were not modern humans. I do<BR>not believe it stands to reason that all populations of H.sapiens naturally<BR>evolved into modern humans, given the conditions of ancient intervention.<BR>(Assuming no genetic manipulation.)<BR><BR>Jeff<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:50:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: John Fox &lt;jfox@verity.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Location of QSDS and SSDS<BR><BR>Hello Everyone:<BR>&nbsp; I am trying to get ahold of a copy of the Quick Starship Design Systema nd the <BR>S Starship Design System.&nbsp; Does anyone know where they are located? And if so <BR>could you send the info to me?<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; Thanks<BR>&nbsp; John W. Fox<BR>&nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:55:33 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>Hmmmmm, *that* could be pretty cool!<BR>Jesse<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of John Lambert<BR>&gt; Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 8:47 PM<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;What color ya' want the stripes :)<BR>&gt; &gt;Jesse<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; Bill,<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I'm running a little slow on my version of your logo, but I do <BR>&gt; like Mark's. <BR>&gt; I did have a thought for the stripes. I have a font of Hawaiian <BR>&gt; petroglyphs <BR>&gt; that could be used on a stripe or as a "stripe" by themselves. For an <BR>&gt; example, look at:<BR>&gt; http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/petroglyph.gif<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; John<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; _________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt; Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:54:36 -0500<BR>From: "Walt Smith" &lt;firelock_ny@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: OT: VB (was re: Traveller Software Project)<BR><BR>Alistair J. R. Young &lt;avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start<BR>&gt;with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and<BR>&gt;pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them<BR>&gt;behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.<BR><BR>Not all programmers want to program "seriously", for the above<BR>value of "seriously".&nbsp; Current sub-US$1000 boxes have such<BR>performance that memory management is nowhere near the<BR>big deal it used to be.&nbsp; Sure, a less-skilled user can write<BR>a program that will run out of memory, and has done so with<BR>every computer language created thus far.&nbsp; An average driver<BR>can kill herself and others by making a mistake while driving<BR>under the speed limit, this fact doesn't make us force all<BR>drivers to learn how to build automobiles before we let them<BR>drive.<BR><BR>I don't expect everyone to learn how to be a "serious<BR>programmer".&nbsp; I don't expect every fast-food fry cook to be<BR>a professional dietician and gourmet chef rolled into one, either.<BR>In a perfect world, there would be enough "serious programmers" to<BR>fill the need for software - there isn't, so tools were developed<BR>to make do.&nbsp; You don't like it, then go program fast enough, well<BR>enough and broadly enough to fill the need and put the VB coders<BR>out of their jobs.&nbsp; :-)<BR><BR>Walt Smith<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:00:18 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: sapiens<BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Hmm. Sounds reasonable. However, a four hundred thousand year period saw<BR>&gt; the rise (and in some cases, fall) of archaic H.sapiens, H.sapiens<BR>&gt; neanderthalis, and H.sapiens. Three (possibly more, given the vagueness of<BR>&gt; the archaic H.sapiens status) is a pretty good rate of change, especially<BR>&gt; when compared with the fruitflies.<BR><BR>Well, that is zero new species in that time period.&nbsp; Almost certainly most<BR>minor human races are new subspecies.<BR><BR>&gt; Again, I would have to admit the validity of this statement. However, this<BR>&gt; is because the H.sapiens of 300,000 years ago were not modern humans. I do<BR>&gt; not believe it stands to reason that all populations of H.sapiens naturally<BR>&gt; evolved into modern humans, given the conditions of ancient intervention.<BR>&gt; (Assuming no genetic manipulation.)<BR><BR>Not sure anyone's claiming they did.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:06:04 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>WOW nice stripe. Well I would like to see your Nose art before i make a<BR>final decision. this is so cool. So many different things. I want to thank<BR>all three of you for helping me.<BR><BR>I am truely honored.<BR><BR><BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: John Lambert [mailto:hovtej@hotmail.com]<BR>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:47 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;What color ya' want the stripes :)<BR>&gt;Jesse<BR>&gt;<BR>Bill,<BR><BR>I'm running a little slow on my version of your logo, but I do like Mark's. <BR>I did have a thought for the stripes. I have a font of Hawaiian petroglyphs <BR>that could be used on a stripe or as a "stripe" by themselves. For an <BR>example, look at:<BR>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/petroglyph.gif<BR><BR>John<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:09:11 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>Well i like Johns stripes however I would like to give him an oportunity to<BR>finish his work.<BR><BR>but for color would like it to match the logo. whether it is Marks or<BR>John's. Other wise im cool with anything 8P<BR><BR>I am really really appreciative with the help you 3 are giving me.<BR><BR>If any of you live in the SF area let me know there is a dinner in it for<BR>you 8)<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Jesse Degraff [mailto:jedegraf@cisco.com]<BR>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:36 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR><BR>What color ya' want the stripes :)<BR>Jesse<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane<BR>&gt; Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 10:58 AM<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; WOW<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I love it.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I really do. much better than what i envisioned. I think this is a winner.<BR>&gt; let me know what i owe you 8P<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; now to talk to jesse 8)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; then to find a website 8P<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Woot we are moving along. 8)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Bill<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Mark F. Cook [mailto:markc@peak.org]<BR>&gt; Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 8:44 PM<BR>&gt; To: Traveller Mail List<BR>&gt; Subject: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; OK, Bill.&nbsp; Here's my 2nd pass as a piece of nose-art for your Beowulf.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/ship_logo/<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Mark C.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:10:13 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>"Well, that is zero new species in that time period.&nbsp; Almost certainly most<BR>minor human races are new subspecies."<BR><BR>What do you mean? H.sapiens (archaic) arouse specifically during that<BR>period, and is certianly a (or a combination of) differnt species then<BR>H.erectus. Furthermore, the variation between H.sapiens neanderthalis and<BR>H.sapiens sapiens is far greater then is witnessed among the human<BR>popultions in traveller. (Generally speaking)<BR><BR>"Not sure anyone's claiming they did."<BR><BR>No, they did not. However, implicit in the neglection of such a claim leaves<BR>my initial question. Why do we not see more variation?<BR><BR>Jeff<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:05:12 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;WOW<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I love it.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I really do.&nbsp; much better than what i envisioned. I think this is a winner.<BR>&gt;let me know what i owe you 8P<BR><BR>Bill, I consider those first five sentences payment in full. :^)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:12:24 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Scout Brew &amp; Girl Scout Cookies...<BR><BR>We've had all this discussion about Scout Brew and I recall that someone<BR>on the list (forgive me, but I forget who) made an allusion to the Wednesday<BR>Addams line from the "Addams Family" movie about wondering if Girl Scout<BR>cookies were made from "real girl scouts".&nbsp; Then, this morning, after I got<BR>out of the shower, I opened the medicine cabinet in our bathroom and found<BR>a container of Johnson &amp; Johnson "baby powder" staring me right in the face.<BR><BR>Hmm.<BR><BR>This conspiracy may run much deeper than we originally suspected.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>P.S. Did everybody catch last night's episode of "Futurama: When Good<BR>Penguins Go Bad"? ROTFL!!<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:20:04 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>&gt;my initial question. Why do we not see more variation?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Jeff<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>Maybe the ancients did something to stablize the mutation rate after making <BR>their selection. Maybe they were here earlier, and tinkered with the <BR>mutation rate to encourage a wider range of choices.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:22:55 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR>&gt;Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly<BR>&gt;120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the<BR>&gt;ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the<BR>&gt;assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens,<BR>or<BR>&gt;did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations<BR>&gt;they took?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Jeffrey Yin<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;-----Original Message-----<BR>&gt;From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt;[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jeff<BR>&gt;Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 6:08 PM<BR>&gt;To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt;Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Jeffrey Yin wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.<BR>&gt;&gt; Sapiens?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;smartass&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Do you have some other species of human in mind?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;/smartass&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;-Russell B<BR><BR>The Zhodani are a subspecies of H. Sapiens. They seem to be inter-fertile<BR>with Solomani stock, but they do have fewer teeth.<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:40:25 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>Same here my friend.<BR>Jesse<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Mark F. Cook<BR>&gt; Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 1:05 PM<BR>&gt; To: Traveller Mail List<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt; writes:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;WOW<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;I love it.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;I really do.&nbsp; much better than what i envisioned. I think this <BR>&gt; is a winner.<BR>&gt; &gt;let me know what i owe you 8P<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bill, I consider those first five sentences payment in full. :^)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Mark C.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:50:07 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; Russell Bornschlegel wrote :<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; While licensing of programmers might be a good thing for a few<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; life-critical sorts of applications -- air traffic control, computer<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; assisted brain surgery, nuclear power plants -- I don't see what<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; harm can be done by writing buggy programs in the privacy of one's<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; own home.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Melissa, Anna Kournikova.....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Touche', but it's not as if a licensed programmer couldn't write a<BR>&gt;virus. Unless you're in support of licensing individual copies of<BR>&gt;compilers to make it impossible to write a program without its<BR>&gt;authorship being traced, which has frightening implications for<BR>&gt;privacy and free speech, in my opinion -- and I'm not even a big<BR>&gt;Open Source/Free Software Zealot (a sympathizer, perhaps, to some<BR>&gt;extent, but not a zealot).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; It really seems as if you're basing your opinions on VB primarily on<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; your memories of classic BASIC.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I would doubt it. BASIC is a great language, it's much better than Visual<BR>&gt;&gt; Basic.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Doesn't VB have reasonable things like parametrized subroutines and<BR>&gt;named labels in it? What makes BASIC "great" and better than VB,<BR>&gt;in your opinion?<BR>&gt;<BR>From the other remarks made I would say that the "problem" is an opinion on<BR>the value of proprietary software and systems. BASIC is good because it is<BR>not proprietary. VB is bad because it is. Linux is good because it is not<BR>proprietary. Windows is bad...etc.<BR><BR>Huge numbers of people use MS ware because it has a massive platform base.<BR>Where I work we are in hock to either MS on the business side or HP or Sun<BR>on the science side. And I don't know which is worst. When we have problems<BR>with out MS stuff we have problems because so much of the system software is<BR>not well documented by MS. On the HP side we have to pay thousands to get<BR>the same color resolution that a PC gets with a hundred dollar video board.<BR>You don't want to know what the equivalent of an $80 scanner costs.<BR><BR>I once had a problem with a password protected screen saver on my CUE login.<BR>I work in a control room, where the machine status screens should never have<BR>a screen saver come up, let alone a password protected one. It took a system<BR>admin guy and me over an hour to go through every one of the dozen or so<BR>files that could override my preferences for the screen saver. And people<BR>keep telling me how bad NT is. For my money UNIX can be just as bad, or<BR>worse.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:38:08 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>Terry Carlino wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; I once had a problem with a password protected screen saver on my CUE login.<BR>&gt; I work in a control room, where the machine status screens should never have<BR>&gt; a screen saver come up, let alone a password protected one. It took a system<BR>&gt; admin guy and me over an hour to go through every one of the dozen or so<BR>&gt; files that could override my preferences for the screen saver. And people<BR>&gt; keep telling me how bad NT is. For my money UNIX can be just as bad, or<BR>&gt; worse.<BR><BR>None of the admins here will touch a HP-UX box with a ten foot bargepole, unless there's a primed C4 charge on the end of it.<BR><BR>HP-UX was a horrible FrankenUnix made of the corpses of a System V <BR>(HP's) and a BSD (Apollo's) implementations.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:06:15 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin writes:<BR><BR>&gt;I was just going over the dates again, and realized (Not for the first time, I<BR>&gt;hope) that the H.Sapiens were not the only species of hominid, if they even <BR>&gt;evolved on earth by 395,000 BC.<BR><BR>This is where it becomes necessary to realize that the Traveller universes are<BR>not carbon copies of the real universe. In our universe anthropologists are<BR>debating if an archaic for of Homo sapiens had evolved by 300,000 BC. In the TU<BR>it is an established fact that it had. You can either assume that the two<BR>universes differ or that present-day theories (and they are only theories) are<BR>wrong.<BR><BR>And Jeff also writes:<BR><BR>&gt;Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly<BR>&gt;120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the<BR>&gt;ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the<BR>&gt;assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens, or<BR>&gt;did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations<BR>&gt;they took?<BR><BR>No. The archaic Homo sapiens (_Homo sapiens antiquitus_ as I call them) left<BR>behind on Earth evolved into _Homo sapiens sapiens_. The ones taken to Zhdant<BR>evolved into _Homo sapiens zhodotlas_. The ones take to Darryen evolved into<BR>_Homo sapiens darriensis_[*]. The ones taken to Vland evolved into _Homo<BR>sapiens bilandin_[*]. Etc. They all evolved into different subspecies. That's<BR>not the problem. The problem is that early canon sources implies that none of<BR>these subspecies diverged enough to become separate species. Unfortunately<BR>later Traveller authors forgot that and introduced some that were separate<BR>species.<BR><BR>[*] Terms of my own coinage. Anyone with better ideas are welcome to suggest<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; them.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 23:15:44 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Another Traveller adventure online<BR><BR>The second Yori adventure&nbsp; ("The&nbsp; Name&nbsp; Of&nbsp; The&nbsp; Coral")&nbsp; is&nbsp; now<BR>finished and on StuffOnline.&nbsp; No&nbsp; doubt&nbsp; it&nbsp; will&nbsp; go&nbsp; past&nbsp; with<BR>bearly a whisper of achnowledgement.&nbsp; For those of&nbsp; you&nbsp; who&nbsp; are<BR>wondering I am planning to have part&nbsp; 3&nbsp; ("The&nbsp; Cruel&nbsp; Undersea")<BR>done&nbsp; before&nbsp; Gencon&nbsp; UK.&nbsp; Part&nbsp; 3&nbsp; will&nbsp; feature&nbsp; an&nbsp; underwater<BR>component!&nbsp; (Those of you who haven't read the Yori Landgrab&nbsp; are<BR>probable wondering "but Yori's a desert world, how can&nbsp; there&nbsp; be<BR>an underwater component?")<BR><BR>http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:30:40 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR>Gerry Harris writes:<BR><BR>&gt;But, this is not to say that explorers won't come across populations<BR>&gt;descended from H. Neanderthalensis or even H. Erectus somewhere out<BR>&gt;there.&nbsp; Canon be damned, this would make a far more interesting<BR>&gt;universe ...<BR><BR>Hence my suggestion to introduce/legitimize Minor Hominid Races to the TU.<BR><BR><BR>Paul Drye writes:<BR>&gt;Traveller canon asserts that the Ancients came to Terra in -300,000, and they<BR>&gt;found some H. Sapiens [...] Regardless of when our species evolved in the real<BR>&gt;world, in the Traveller universe it existed three hundred thousand years ago.<BR><BR>But canon doesn't say that they found H. sapiens _sapiens_. Just H. sapiens.<BR>Our species demonstrably existed 300,000 years ago (in the TU), but our<BR>subspecies presumably did not.<BR><BR>Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>&gt;Probably the best known definition of a species is the biological species<BR>&gt;concept: "Species are groups of actually or potentially interbreeding<BR>&gt;populations that are reproductively isolated from other such groups."<BR><BR>The definition used by the Traveller canon is set forth in _Solomani_. I don't<BR>have an exact quote here, but it basically uses the one about interfertility<BR>(and ignores the grey areas).<BR><BR>&gt;It should be kept in mind that this is not the only definition, and there are<BR>&gt;some problems with it.&nbsp; How do you classify species in which there is no<BR>&gt;sexual reproduction?<BR><BR>Not really a problem when talking about hominid species.<BR><BR>&gt;All I am trying to say is that you have some latitude in the use of Homo<BR>&gt;sapiens.<BR><BR>&gt;Hominid refers to H. sapiens along with its recent ancestors (back to the<BR>&gt;Astralopithecines) and close cousins (none of which survive). By the<BR>&gt;biological species definition, your Hominid "races" would technically be<BR>&gt;species, but shading the language is nothing new.<BR><BR>I'm using 'races' the way Traveller canon does. Evidently the usage has changed<BR>over the4 years.<BR><BR>Ian Ferguson also writes:<BR>&gt;Jeff writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly<BR>&gt;&gt;120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the<BR>&gt;&gt;ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the<BR>&gt;&gt;assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens, or<BR>&gt;&gt;did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations<BR>&gt;&gt;they took?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;I don't think that canon ever specifies that all "Humaniti" are members of<BR>&gt;Homo sapiens sapiens.<BR><BR>No, just _Homo sapiens_.<BR><BR>And Jeffery Yin writes:<BR>&gt;Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations<BR>&gt;taken evolve into the same species?<BR><BR>They didn't. They all started out being of the same species and did not diverge<BR>enough to become separate species. All the ones we've heard of till now did<BR>evolve to some degree. Just not enough.<BR><BR>&gt;Rob Myers writes:<BR><BR>&gt;Jeff wrote: <BR>&gt;&gt;Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations<BR>&gt;&gt;taken evolve into the same specie?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The same reason you and I did: Ancients genetic manipulation. The<BR>&gt;Solomani aren't "root stock", no matter how much they believe it.<BR><BR>Unlikely. If the ancients did attempt to 'freeze' their human populations they<BR>did a remarkably poor job, since every subspecies we've heard of till now has<BR>evolved a bit.<BR><BR>(Of course, one could argue that the Ancients did try to stabilize their human<BR>servants and achieved such a remarkable success that they didn't evolve enough<BR>in 300,000 years to become separate species. I suppose it depends on how<BR>powerful one imagines the Ancients to be. My own feeling is that if the Ancients<BR>had wanted to stabilize Humanity, then there would have been no evolution<BR>whatsoever in the last 300,000 years (except possibly on Terra) and every other<BR>human population would still be identical to _Homo sap. antiquitus_. YMMV.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:39:24 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)<BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin writes:<BR><BR>&gt;Well, that's the question. Did they? Even if they did, in all the four<BR>&gt;hundred thousand years you would expect greater genetic varaiations then<BR>&gt;merely "subspecies" status as currently exists. <BR><BR>300,000 years. There are some canon publications where the figure 400,000 years<BR>appear, but they are in error. The Ancients period spans about 20,000 years<BR>roughly 300,000 years ago. Material that claims that the Ancients did this or<BR>that 400,000 years ago is in error.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;And if they did, why experiment with only archaic Homo sapiens? <BR><BR>1) It was the most adaptable of the hominids the Ancients found, so they stuck<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; to them.<BR><BR>2) As above, but samples of the other species were taken. However, none of them<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; survived into historic times.<BR><BR>3) As 2), but some survived. They just haven't been found yet.<BR><BR>4) As 3) and some of them have been found. Note that this last one would<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; defintiely be contrary to canon.<BR><BR>&gt;I am only an enthusiast, and no where near an expert, but I seem to recall<BR>&gt;that the neanderthal culture was much more developed at the time, and would<BR>&gt;seem like a better choice.<BR><BR>The Neanderthals didn't evolved until much later. Currently anthropologists<BR>argue whether they were a subspecies of H. sapiens or a distinct species. But<BR>they were not around when the Ancients came calling.<BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3769<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-za03.mx.aol.com (rly-za03.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.99]) by air-za03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:41:58 1900<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:41:23 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA99028;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:39:47 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:39:26 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA98990<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:39:26 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:39:26 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103052339.SAA98990@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3769<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, March 6 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3770<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR>RE: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)<BR>re: Scout Brew &amp; Girl Scout Cookies...<BR>Re: Sapiens<BR>RE: Sapiens<BR>New law in Australia<BR>Re: New law in Australia<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>RE: Sapiens<BR>RE: Sapiens<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>RE: Sapiens<BR>Re: Sapiens<BR>Re: Sapiens<BR>Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:05:20 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>The issue is not if we can give different names to the other human races.<BR>The question is why there are not more significant morphological and genetic<BR>differences between the human races.<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Hans Rancke-Madsen<BR>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 3:06 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin writes:<BR><BR>&gt;I was just going over the dates again, and realized (Not for the first<BR>time, I<BR>&gt;hope) that the H.Sapiens were not the only species of hominid, if they even<BR>&gt;evolved on earth by 395,000 BC.<BR><BR>This is where it becomes necessary to realize that the Traveller universes<BR>are<BR>not carbon copies of the real universe. In our universe anthropologists are<BR>debating if an archaic for of Homo sapiens had evolved by 300,000 BC. In the<BR>TU<BR>it is an established fact that it had. You can either assume that the two<BR>universes differ or that present-day theories (and they are only theories)<BR>are<BR>wrong.<BR><BR>And Jeff also writes:<BR><BR>&gt;Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly<BR>&gt;120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the<BR>&gt;ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the<BR>&gt;assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens,<BR>or<BR>&gt;did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations<BR>&gt;they took?<BR><BR>No. The archaic Homo sapiens (_Homo sapiens antiquitus_ as I call them) left<BR>behind on Earth evolved into _Homo sapiens sapiens_. The ones taken to<BR>Zhdant<BR>evolved into _Homo sapiens zhodotlas_. The ones take to Darryen evolved into<BR>_Homo sapiens darriensis_[*]. The ones taken to Vland evolved into _Homo<BR>sapiens bilandin_[*]. Etc. They all evolved into different subspecies.<BR>That's<BR>not the problem. The problem is that early canon sources implies that none<BR>of<BR>these subspecies diverged enough to become separate species. Unfortunately<BR>later Traveller authors forgot that and introduced some that were separate<BR>species.<BR><BR>[*] Terms of my own coinage. Anyone with better ideas are welcome to suggest<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; them.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:09:17 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)<BR><BR>The fact that Neanderthal man does not arise until after the decline of<BR>archaic homo sapiens is a good indication of the possible variations that at<BR>least some of the dispersed human populations may have taken, as the same<BR>species is believed to be the last common ancestor of neanderthals and us.<BR><BR>As to your given reasons for why only archaic homo sapiens (very good ones,<BR>btw) there still exists issues.<BR><BR>1) If the ancients found canines worth their time, you would think they<BR>would give other hominids a chance. Not that the canines don't have worth<BR>while advantages the ancients would want, but I see no reason why they would<BR>ignore H.erectus, a very successful species in the hominid line.<BR><BR>2) Certainly possible. The war did wipe out a lot of evidence.<BR><BR>3) Hmm. Sounds like an intriguing possibility.<BR><BR>4) Are there canon references which state something to the tune of "All<BR>humans found are sub species of H.sapiens?" (Not that I don't agree with you<BR>on this one, but if there is also a canon reference, it would be helpful.)<BR><BR>Jeff<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:10:51 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Scout Brew &amp; Girl Scout Cookies...<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;We've had all this discussion about Scout Brew and I recall that someone<BR>&gt;on the list (forgive me, but I forget who) made an allusion to the <BR>&gt;Wednesday Addams<BR><BR>That was me.&nbsp; I would also draw your recollection to the discussion of how<BR>in some places with low literacy, it is common for vendors to put a<BR>picture of the product on the can or box.&nbsp; That can of Boston Baked Beans<BR>will sell just fine there, but the Gerber's Baby Food may at least raise<BR>some eyebrows.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:17:36 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR>&gt; None of these theories can be "true", though. Traveller canon asserts that <BR>&gt;&nbsp; the Ancients came to Terra in -300,000, and they found some H. Sapiens <BR>(see <BR>&gt;&nbsp; GT: Rim of Fire, page 39, for example -- where it says so in so many <BR>words). <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; Regardless of when our species evolved in the real world, in the Traveller <BR>&gt;&nbsp; universe it existed three hundred thousand years ago.<BR><BR>It just means we haven't found the -300K BP evidence yet.<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:34:27 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR>With respect, that isn't what the sidebar says. Following the same<BR>reference, it goes on to say:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; "The most advanced hominid at the time was an "archaic" version of Homo<BR>sapiens." (GT, Rim of Fire, pg. 39 sidebar)<BR><BR>The implication, as the sidebar goes on to make, is either<BR><BR>1) We evolved a lot faster then is currently believed<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; or<BR><BR>2) The ancients modified a large portion of archaic H.sapiens.<BR><BR>The problem with both is it fails to explain why modern H.sapiens do not<BR>appear at 395,000 B.C., nor for more then two hundred thousand years after.<BR>(The GT date, if, as Hans says, not the real date.) Also, if modern<BR>H.sapiens existed over a longer period then is currently believed, it raises<BR>new issues of its own.<BR><BR>More time increases the chances of interaction. Increased interaction should<BR>eventually warrant some evidence. Perhaps archaic Homo sapiens with obvious<BR>spear wounds. Not just isolated people, but communities. Trade, technology<BR>and spiritual beliefs should also be somewhat more advanced.<BR><BR>Jeff<BR><BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 4:18 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR><BR>&gt; None of these theories can be "true", though. Traveller canon asserts that<BR>&gt;&nbsp; the Ancients came to Terra in -300,000, and they found some H. Sapiens<BR>(see<BR>&gt;&nbsp; GT: Rim of Fire, page 39, for example -- where it says so in so many<BR>words).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Regardless of when our species evolved in the real world, in the<BR>Traveller<BR>&gt;&nbsp; universe it existed three hundred thousand years ago.<BR><BR>It just means we haven't found the -300K BP evidence yet.<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:02:01 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: New law in Australia<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>Gee, folks, you'll just *love* this!!!!!<BR><BR>Beware - Big Brother is watching you! (In Oz, at least.)<BR><BR>&gt;As you may, or may not be aware, it is now illegal in Australia to forward<BR>&gt;email without explicit permission of it's author. You face fines up to<BR>&gt;$60000 and 5 years in gaol.<BR>&gt;As such, to protect yourselves I recommend you do not under any<BR>&gt;circumstances forward emails without permission of that emails author, and<BR>&gt;all other quoted authors.<BR>&gt;To protect other people, I recommend you use a stationay such as this one<BR>as<BR>&gt;a&nbsp; minimum.<BR>&gt;A proper legal one follows.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;name&gt; &lt;phone&gt;<BR>&gt;Copyright  &lt;ccyy&gt;<BR>&gt;Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this<BR>&gt;document, but changing it is not allowed.<BR><BR>(Does this mean that proxy servers are breaking the law, because they<BR>forward your emails to you? ;-) ;-)<BR><BR>This was apparently precipitated by that sexually explicit email from the<BR>UK-based Rose Norton law firm that was sent earlier in the year. The only<BR>way the girl involved could get at "Brad the Cad", was to sue him for<BR>breach of copyright (trust a lawyer to work that one out). The Aust govt<BR>decided to pass a law about it on the weekend.<BR><BR>It remains to be seen if internal company emails are affected - does<BR>copyright invest in the author, or the company? Or jointly?<BR><BR>(This'll be one of those things pursued for a while by the govt, and which<BR>will cause a great IT debate, before everyone realises it's silly and "all<BR>too hard" - and thus drop it. Like most attempts to control the Internet -<BR>sorry, but the genie is now out of the bottle!).<BR><BR>I suppose we all need to update our .sig files... bloody hell, mine's long<BR>now, what with the work disclaimer as well (I'm terribly sorry about it! -<BR>especially to all those with slow modems!!). I'll have to make sure I only<BR>reply when really necessary, maybe???<BR><BR>:-(<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>REQ'D AUST DISCLAIMER - Copyright  2001. You are permitted to copy and<BR>distribute verbatim copies of or quotes taken from this document, as<BR>long as the original form of the text is unchanged.<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material &amp; opinions contained within are solely those<BR>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:07:51 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New law in Australia<BR><BR>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;As you may, or may not be aware, it is now illegal in Australia to forward<BR>&gt; &gt;email without explicit permission of it's author.<BR><BR>&nbsp; The attorney-general has explicitly denies that forwarding email is<BR>illegal.&nbsp; However, the wording of the press release implies that this<BR>is only true for "trivial" email that is not considered to have<BR>"necessary originality" -- office gossip, circulated jokes, etc.&nbsp; I<BR>was sort of amused by how it *was* worded -- it carefully avoids the<BR>question of where the boundary is between email covered by copyright<BR>and email not covered.&nbsp; <BR><BR>"Amendments to the Copyright Act that came into effect today do not<BR>&nbsp; outlaw the practice of forwarding personal e-mails to other<BR>&nbsp; people. That would be ridiculous."<BR><BR>However,<BR><BR>"Forwarding a personal e-mail is unlikely to breach copyright<BR>&nbsp; laws."<BR><BR>&lt;http://www.law.gov.au/aghome/agnews/2001newsag/931_01.htm&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; So it would be "ridiculous" to make forwarding personal email<BR>illegal, but is only "unlikely" to breach copyright laws.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; (Does this mean that proxy servers are breaking the law, because they<BR>&gt; forward your emails to you? ;-) ;-)<BR><BR>&nbsp; Well, it still appears that anyone operating any sort of cache that<BR>temporarily holds copyrighted material is breaking the law.&nbsp; I haven't<BR>seen anything to indicate otherwise yet.&nbsp; The only question seems to<BR>be whether a given piece of email has any sort of copyright at all.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; It remains to be seen if internal company emails are affected - does<BR>&gt; copyright invest in the author, or the company? Or jointly?<BR><BR>&nbsp; The implication of the A-G's press release is that very little email<BR>is protected by copyright.&nbsp; Which of course opens up a whole new can<BR>of worms.<BR><BR><BR>- - Tim<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:07:22 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson writes:<BR><BR>&gt; None of the admins here will touch a HP-UX box with a ten foot bargepole,<BR>&gt; unless there's a primed C4 charge on the end of it. <BR><BR>HP-UX isn't quite that bad.&nbsp; The real problem is that you should never touch<BR>Unix windowing systems with a 10' pole.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 19:33:00 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>At 01:09 PM 03/05/01 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;If any of you live in the SF area let me know there is a dinner in it for<BR>&gt;you 8)<BR><BR>Are you on the Traveller in SF list?&nbsp; Or going to BayCon?<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:01:10 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR>&gt;More time increases the chances of interaction. Increased interaction should<BR>&gt;eventually warrant some evidence. Perhaps archaic Homo sapiens with obvious<BR>&gt;spear wounds. Not just isolated people, but communities. Trade, technology<BR>&gt;and spiritual beliefs should also be somewhat more advanced.<BR><BR>Hi Jeff,<BR>&nbsp; Just out of curiosity - what is the oldest non-fossilized set of bones<BR>ever discovered?<BR><BR>&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:26:28 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR>Hmm. If you want an accurate answer, one of the experts of the lists could<BR>probably tell you. If a completely uneducated guess would do, I would think<BR>that bones would take a while to fossilize (like maybe thousands of years,<BR>or something.) So maybe a couple of thousand or something? I have no idea.<BR><BR>Jeff Yin<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of hal@buffnet.net<BR>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 11:01 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR><BR>&gt;More time increases the chances of interaction. Increased interaction<BR>should<BR>&gt;eventually warrant some evidence. Perhaps archaic Homo sapiens with obvious<BR>&gt;spear wounds. Not just isolated people, but communities. Trade, technology<BR>&gt;and spiritual beliefs should also be somewhat more advanced.<BR><BR>Hi Jeff,<BR>&nbsp; Just out of curiosity - what is the oldest non-fossilized set of bones<BR>ever discovered?<BR><BR>&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:42:38 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>On 5 Mar 2001, at 14:12, Alistair J. R. Young wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I won't have a chance to look at Jade for about another four hours, but<BR>&gt; please don't let people start with Java (or any other garbage-collected<BR>&gt; language, for that matter). It's absolutely dire what languages like<BR>&gt; that, and other features that pick up the programmer's mess for him, can<BR>&gt; do to the skill set of a beginner.<BR><BR>&gt; If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start<BR>&gt; with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and<BR>&gt; pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them<BR>&gt; behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.<BR><BR>To put it bluntly, balderdash. What the budding programmers to tommorrow <BR>need to learn above all else (and need to learn desperately, if todays <BR>programmers are anything to go by) is the need for detailed design <BR>documentation and keeping good metrics!<BR><BR>In todays resource rich environments, issues such as memory <BR>management are nice but well down the list from things such as detailed <BR>structured design, system documentation, user documentation, seperation <BR>of interface and functionality, keeping good metrics, the need for rigorous <BR>testing etc. All things the low level languages are *not* good at teaching. <BR>Now adays very few applications need the low level system access that C <BR>and Assembler are good at, but virtually all do need to have code that can <BR>be maintained.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 04:45:32 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>It is not finished (she still needs a flower), but I do have my attempt at <BR>the nose art for the Mahina Tiare posted at:<BR>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/NoseArt.htm<BR>I have also added some additional petroglyphs for the stripe.<BR><BR>Bill, thanks for providing us with such a fun project to work on. Your kind <BR>comments are payment enough. I would share a Scout Brew or the local <BR>equivalent with you sometime!<BR><BR>John<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:19:14 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR>Jeffrey wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until<BR>roughly<BR>&gt;120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between<BR>the<BR>&gt;ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the<BR>&gt;assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens<BR>Sapiens, or<BR>&gt;did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human<BR>populations<BR>&gt;they took?<BR><BR>GDW set the date of Homo Sapiens at -500,000 (Traveller Alien Module 6,<BR>pg 2).&nbsp; Sub-species should be interfertile, thus under GDW's<BR>assumptions, Neanderthal (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis), Cro-Magnon<BR>(Homo sapiens cro-magnon), Solomani (Homo sapiens sapiens), Vilani,<BR>Zhodani, etc are interfertile.<BR><BR>Also note that the diversion between Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon happen<BR>during the time of the Ancients visits. (according to AM6)<BR><BR>Charles H<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:19:29 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR>Hans wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Jeffrey Yin askes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Are there any canon references as to why all human species are<BR>H.Sapiens?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;No explanations. It is simply stated as a fact. And subsequent<BR>Traveller authors<BR>&gt;have been unable to resist the temptation to introduce some descendants<BR>of<BR>&gt;transplanted human populations that has drifted too far to be<BR>interfertile with<BR>&gt;the rest, so there is a contradiction there.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;My own fix IMTU is to introduce a new designation: Hominid races.<BR>Hominid races<BR>&gt;are those that are no longer interfertile with the human races. That<BR>way all<BR>&gt;human races are Homo sapiens because the _definition_ of a human race<BR>is to be<BR>&gt;Homo sapiens. Those that are not are not human but hominid races[*].<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Obviously is a canon revision. If hominid races exists an article about<BR>human<BR>&gt;races would mention them or at the very least refer to them, and the<BR>Library<BR>&gt;Data entry about Humaniti does no such thing. But if you can get past<BR>that, this<BR>&gt;explains a lot of other things, like why some material puts the number<BR>of human<BR>&gt;races at 46 and others put them at 49 (Explanation: There is a grey<BR>area. Some<BR>&gt;races are partially interfertile and just how partial it has to be to<BR>classify a<BR>&gt;race as hominid instead of human differs from authority to authority).<BR>And it<BR>&gt;gives a convenient way to pigeonhole those MHRs that are not<BR>interfertile with<BR>&gt;the rest of humanity.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;[*] For some reason there are not all that many of them. Somewhere<BR>between 6 and<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; 12 would be my suggestion.<BR><BR>What you are talking about are those that have deverged so far as to<BR>become a seperate species, they are now Homo<BR>"something-other-than-sapiens", these may or may not be interfertile,<BR>but if interfertile then it could be like the horse and donkey, able to<BR>create infertile offspring.<BR><BR>Charles H<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:19:44 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR>Jeffrey wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Are there any canon references as to why all human species are<BR>H.Sapiens?<BR><BR>Traveller Alien Module 6&nbsp; pg. 2<BR>Graphic showing Homo sapiens (-500,000 to --200,000)&nbsp; with sub-species<BR>developing from them.<BR>The first 2 secions (about 1/2 page of text)<BR>All human races as well as Neanderthal and Cro-magnon are listed as<BR>subspecies.<BR><BR>Charles H<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:59:01 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>As the only person I know that has actually created a race that is close to <BR>not being interfertile, I thought I should comment here.<BR><BR>GURPS Traveller (p38)<BR>"Humans: Intelligent major race dominating the Imperium...<BR>...Most branches of Humaniti are interfertile, although some of the more <BR>extreme variants are not. For taxonomic purposes, all are included in the <BR>family Homoinoidae, and the vast majority are genus Homo. Solomani and <BR>Vilani are H. sapiens sapiens, Zhodani are H. sapiens zhdotlas".<BR><BR>So, while CT does imply that all the Ancients transplantees became <BR>subspecies (though I don't think it was ever explicitly stated); it would <BR>appear that at least in GT this has been abandoned. Further, I think it also <BR>clearly states that in Traveller useage, the terms "Human" and "Humaniti" <BR>includes all the family Homoinoidae (which sort of knocks Han's Homonid <BR>Minor Races on the head, more's the pity).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:41:58 -0800<BR>From: Jesse DeGraff &lt;jdegraff@pacbell.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>I'm in San Jose, and there's a bunch more TML'ers in SF.&nbsp; See Doug's post<BR>regarding the Trav in SF mailing list :)<BR><BR>Jesse<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane<BR>&gt; Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 1:09 PM<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Well i like Johns stripes however I would like to give him an<BR>&gt; oportunity to<BR>&gt; finish his work.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; but for color would like it to match the logo. whether it is Marks or<BR>&gt; John's. Other wise im cool with anything 8P<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I am really really appreciative with the help you 3 are giving me.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; If any of you live in the SF area let me know there is a dinner in it for<BR>&gt; you 8)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hasta<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Bill<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Jesse Degraff [mailto:jedegraf@cisco.com]<BR>&gt; Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:36 PM<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; What color ya' want the stripes :)<BR>&gt; Jesse<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; &gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane<BR>&gt; &gt; Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 10:58 AM<BR>&gt; &gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; WOW<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I love it.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I really do. much better than what i envisioned. I think this<BR>&gt; is a winner.<BR>&gt; &gt; let me know what i owe you 8P<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; now to talk to jesse 8)<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; then to find a website 8P<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Woot we are moving along. 8)<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Bill<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; From: Mark F. Cook [mailto:markc@peak.org]<BR>&gt; &gt; Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 8:44 PM<BR>&gt; &gt; To: Traveller Mail List<BR>&gt; &gt; Subject: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; OK, Bill.&nbsp; Here's my 2nd pass as a piece of nose-art for your Beowulf.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/ship_logo/<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Mark C.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax:<BR>&gt; 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:09:15 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>Unfortunatly, GT is self conflicting.<BR><BR>GT Rim of Fire states on page 39:<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; "A biologist's definition rewuires that different species cannot<BR>successfully breed with each other, but all known Human subspecies are at<BR>least somewhat interfertile. To be sure, some combinations are rare, or<BR>require medical intervention to bring about."<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Andrew<BR>Moffatt-Vallance<BR>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 9:59 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR><BR>As the only person I know that has actually created a race that is close to<BR>not being interfertile, I thought I should comment here.<BR><BR>GURPS Traveller (p38)<BR>"Humans: Intelligent major race dominating the Imperium...<BR>...Most branches of Humaniti are interfertile, although some of the more<BR>extreme variants are not. For taxonomic purposes, all are included in the<BR>family Homoinoidae, and the vast majority are genus Homo. Solomani and<BR>Vilani are H. sapiens sapiens, Zhodani are H. sapiens zhdotlas".<BR><BR>So, while CT does imply that all the Ancients transplantees became<BR>subspecies (though I don't think it was ever explicitly stated); it would<BR>appear that at least in GT this has been abandoned. Further, I think it also<BR>clearly states that in Traveller useage, the terms "Human" and "Humaniti"<BR>includes all the family Homoinoidae (which sort of knocks Han's Homonid<BR>Minor Races on the head, more's the pity).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:20:57 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>&gt; &gt; None of the admins here will touch a HP-UX box with a ten foot bargepole,<BR>&gt; &gt; unless there's a primed C4 charge on the end of it. <BR>&gt; HP-UX isn't quite that bad.&nbsp; The real problem is that you should never touch<BR>&gt; Unix windowing systems with a 10' pole.<BR><BR>With my meager experience in different flavors of UNIX(r) I agree<BR>wholeheartedly with people who say that Packard should have had his name<BR>first.<BR><BR>This would create a more appropriate acronym for their UNIX(r) system...<BR><BR>(Might be that HUT administration does not use as much effort with PH-UX<BR>than with other UNICEN here, but still... give me debian Linux, please.<BR>B-(<BR><BR>- -- <BR>+++++++++[&gt;+++++++++&lt;-]&gt;-.&lt;+++++[&gt;+++&lt;-]++&gt;++.&lt;++[&gt;++++&lt;-]+&gt;+.&lt;++[&gt;----<BR>&lt;-]&gt;-.&gt;+++[&gt;++++++++++&lt;-]++&gt;++pare@iki.fi&lt;+[&gt;++++&lt;-]&gt;+.-&gt;+[&gt;++++[&lt;&lt;---&gt;<BR>&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;.&gt;&gt;+++++++[&lt;++++++++++&gt;-]++++[&lt;+++++&gt;-]&lt;-.&gt;[-]&gt;+++[&gt;++[&lt;&lt;&lt;----&gt;&gt;<BR>&lt;&gt;&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;&lt;.+.&gt;[-]++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;.++.[-]&gt;[-]++++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;++.&gt;&gt;++[&gt;++[&gt;-&lt;-]&lt;--]<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3770<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-yh01.mx.aol.com (rly-yh01.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.33]) by air-yh03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Mar 2001 03:23:46 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Mar 2001 03:23:15 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id DAA20073;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 03:21:26 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 6 Mar 2001 03:21:02 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id DAA20032<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 03:21:02 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 03:21:02 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103060821.DAA20032@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3770<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3771</B></TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, March 6 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3771<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Re: Sapiens<BR>RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>RE: License To Program<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: Traveller software project<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: Traveller software project<BR>RE: Astrogation design<BR>RE: Astrogation design<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:04:32 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>On 5 Mar 2001, at 22:09, Jeff wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Unfortunatly, GT is self conflicting.<BR><BR>&gt; GT Rim of Fire states on page 39:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; "A biologist's definition rewuires that different species cannot<BR>&gt; successfully breed with each other, but all known Human subspecies are at<BR>&gt; least somewhat interfertile. To be sure, some combinations are rare, or<BR>&gt; require medical intervention to bring about."<BR><BR>This in itself is not entirely contradictory. The keyword here is "somewhat". <BR>Horses and Donkeys (undeniably seperate species by any definition) are <BR>"somewhat" interfertile even with purely natural conception (it is extremely <BR>rare but not unheard of for *fertile* mules to be born). Add in advanced <BR>(early stellar+) medical intervention and RoF does not actually contradict <BR>GT.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 20:37:58 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>Rob Davenport wrote :-<BR>&gt; My question about the device in the article is - if it crushes the<BR>&gt; can, it's pretty much a one-shot deal, no?<BR>Yes.<BR>Consider it an ignition system for the fusion reactor.<BR>There is now a good reason to leave the reactor idling on primitive worlds<BR>or in other wilderness situations.<BR><BR>"Damn! We're out of starter cartridges."<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote :-<BR>&gt; It's possibly a power storage mechanism if antimatter production<BR>&gt; could be made a _lot_ more efficient.<BR>This is essentially what Bob Forward wrote.<BR><BR>&gt; Factor of 10 isn't a very interesting improvement.&nbsp; 10 orders of<BR>&gt; magnitude would probably be sufficient for useful antimatter<BR>&gt; production.<BR>6-8 orders of magnitude look doable in the near term (Forward, 1995).<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote :-<BR>&gt; The only thing that GURPS disagrees with him on is the storage<BR>&gt; container aspect.<BR>All that GURPS Vehicles states is that antimatter fuel bays don't require<BR>power (G:V2e p.90). Is this what you're talking about?<BR><BR>Given that the desired storage temperature for antihydrogen seems to be on<BR>the order of 2 Kelvin, I think power consumption has been omitted for ease<BR>of in-game housekeeping rather than D. Pulver knowing more about the subject<BR>than R. Forward.<BR><BR>&lt;giggle, snort&gt;<BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 02:13:36 -0800<BR>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>Subject: RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>"Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; The issue is not if we can give different names to the other human<BR>&gt; races. The question is why there are not more significant<BR>&gt; morphological and genetic differences between the human races.<BR><BR>Well, there are ones like the Suerrat (picture in DGP's WBH and <BR>described by me in one of the T4 issues of JTAS) [wow, can I use <BR>more acronyms in one sentence]&nbsp; Anyway, they have large eyes <BR>(which makes sense, they evolved for 300,000 years under a dim <BR>red M0 star) are exceedingly hairy/furry and have long arms that <BR>look capable of brachiation.&nbsp; They might be interfertile with Terran-<BR>evolved humans (heck, chimps are close to being interfertile with <BR>modern humans), but that doesn't mean they aren't quite different.<BR><BR>At minimum, any minor human race that evolved for 300K years <BR>under a radically different type of star will have vision that is at least <BR>somewhat different from Terran vision. Even the Darrians have far <BR>more difference between themselves and us and any modern <BR>Terran race does with each other and&nbsp; Compared to some of the <BR>others that have been described in various Traveller products, the <BR>Darrians are very human.<BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 02:28:24 -0800<BR>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>"Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Unfortunatly, GT is self conflicting.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; GT Rim of Fire states on page 39:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; "A biologist's definition rewuires that different species cannot<BR>&gt; successfully breed with each other, but all known Human subspecies are<BR>&gt; at least somewhat interfertile. To be sure, some combinations are<BR>&gt; rare, or require medical intervention to bring about."<BR><BR>Except that the "require medical intervention clause" could easily <BR>mean that they are as interfertile as horses and donkeys, or even <BR>as non (but almost) interfertile as chimps and humans.&nbsp; Clearly all <BR>of them are far more closely related than any hominid is to any <BR>other sentient species.&nbsp; However, given the medical intervention <BR>clause we could easily be talking about very close but actually <BR>separate species who have been defined as the same species for <BR>purely socio-political purposes.<BR><BR>Also, remember that one set of current evidence strongly indicates <BR>that modern humans and neanderthals could and did interbreed. <BR>Given that, we honestly have no idea how many of our other <BR>hominid ancestors we could interbreed with.<BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com&nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:54:30 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR>Now *that's* hand-waving! :-)<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>On Tuesday, March 6, 2001, at 12:17 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; Regardless of when our species evolved in the real world, in the Traveller&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; universe it existed three hundred thousand years ago. <BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; It just means we haven't found the -300K BP evidence yet. <BR><BR>- --<BR>JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/<BR>Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,<BR>Edition en Anglais.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:04:43 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>Russell Bornschlegel wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Russell Bornschlegel wrote :<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; While licensing of programmers might be a good thing for a few<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; life-critical sorts of applications -- air traffic control, computer<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; assisted brain surgery, nuclear power plants -- I don't see what<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; harm can be done by writing buggy programs in the privacy of one's<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; own home.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Melissa, Anna Kournikova.....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Touche', but it's not as if a licensed programmer couldn't write a<BR>&gt; virus. Unless you're in support of licensing individual copies of<BR>&gt; compilers to make it impossible to write a program without its<BR>&gt; authorship being traced, which has frightening implications for<BR>&gt; privacy and free speech, in my opinion -- and I'm not even a big<BR>&gt; Open Source/Free Software Zealot (a sympathizer, perhaps, to some<BR>&gt; extent, but not a zealot).<BR><BR>No, that wouldn't work anyway, it would be hacked as soon as it was<BR>released.<BR>Or we'd all write code with compilers licensed to Bill Gates.<BR><BR>But a professional programmer who could be shown to have written (and<BR>released) a virus could be barred from working againm, in the same way<BR>unprofessional behaviour&nbsp; from doctors and lawyers can result in them being<BR>barred.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; I would doubt it. BASIC is a great language, it's much better<BR>&gt; &gt; than Visual Basic.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Doesn't VB have reasonable things like parametrized subroutines and<BR>&gt; named labels in it? What makes BASIC "great" and better than VB,<BR>&gt; in your opinion?<BR><BR>Actually, I was being a bit tongue in cheek, but the thing about plain BASIC<BR>is that for it's time it was a good teaching language because it was simple,<BR>and provided a good introduction<BR>to C and assembler.<BR><BR>Also it doesn't have all the annnoying idiosyncracies that VB added to it.<BR><BR>Imagine you have a hammer. Now hammers are nice and simple for some jobs,<BR>and no good for others.<BR><BR>Now along comes a vendor and turns your hammer into a hammer with several<BR>swiss army knife attachements on it. But these attachements are so awkwardly<BR>placed that it is now very difficult to use it as a hammer, because the<BR>attachments keep getting between you and the nail, and the attachments<BR>because, they are attached to hammer, rather than a swiss army knife, are<BR>also much harder to use.<BR><BR>That's the sort of feeling I get when trying to use VB.<BR><BR>Then again, I still program using vi, and hate all GUI IDE's even though I<BR>have been developing GUI interfaces for the last ten years. I can write a<BR>screen design in vi quicker than people can lay one out with a GUI IDE, and<BR>it will have better functionality, because it will resize properly as well.<BR><BR>&gt; The industry doesn't give a flying rat's ass about best development<BR>&gt; practices.<BR><BR>I disagree.<BR><BR>These days if you're not ISO9002 accredited and at least CMM level 2, you<BR>stand very little chance of getting a major project. At least, that's true<BR>in the areas where I'm working anyway.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:42:35 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program<BR><BR>Terry Carlino wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; It is amazing to me the arrogance of some people. Insisting that someone<BR>&gt; must learn about memory management, pointers or any other low level<BR>&gt; architecture in today's computing environment is like insisting that a<BR>&gt; carpenter must be able to make his own tools, or an electrician<BR>&gt; must be able to manufacture his own wire.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I've been programming for twenty years. I've written in<BR>&gt; assembler, and used everything from Fortran to COBOL to<BR>&gt; Basic, not to mention Forth, tcl, Motif, etc.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Now I'm primarily a user and my opinion is that most of my problems result<BR>&gt; from the inability of "professional" programmers to do what's really<BR>&gt; important to rolling out usable software. That's DOCUMENTATION!<BR>&gt; Documentation, help files, user guides, user oriented (as opposed to<BR>&gt; programmer oriented) interfaces, documented code, and use of unsuitable<BR>&gt; tools (you know, like using c to make a GUI.)<BR><BR>Programmers are not supposed to do that work, that's what document<BR>specialists are for.<BR><BR>Also, user-oriented interfaces do exist, and the science of usability is<BR>something that is heavily emphasised by professional development<BR>organizations. However, again, it is not the programmer's responsibility to<BR>do this, it is up to the usability experts and the testing organization to<BR>drive this.<BR><BR>Basically, any organization that is not employing documentation<BR>professionals and usability experts is not a professional organization.<BR><BR>The majority of user interfaces are far better now than they were in the<BR>sixties, and they will get better.<BR><BR>&gt; To say that "best development practices" haven't fundamentally changed in<BR>&gt; twenty or more years shows a basic lack of appreciation for the<BR>&gt; differences between 8-bit and 64-bit architecture, cheap memory and<BR>expensive memory,<BR>&gt; cheap storage and expensive storage.<BR><BR>I disagree.<BR>You only mentioned changes in hardware, hardware&nbsp; merely changes the<BR>development parameters.<BR>Best development pratices _are_ still the same.<BR><BR>Heck, CMM has been out for over ten years, and there are still lots of shops<BR>that don't adhere to it, and CMM is merely an amalgamation of the previous<BR>twenty years of experience.<BR><BR>The problem is that it takes twenty years for a "best practice" to be picked<BR>up by the majority of developers.<BR><BR>&gt; Insisting that a programmer use a<BR>&gt; klutzy first or second generation language "because they'll have a better<BR>&gt; appreciation of how the system actually works" smacks of elitism. (Surely<BR>&gt; something programmers have never been accused of.)<BR><BR>I agree and disagree. I agree there is no need to teach modern programmers<BR>older languages, but I don't agree it's elitism. It's merely an opinon.<BR><BR>I've always felt I'm a good programmer partially because I understand how<BR>the whole machine works, from the physics of semiconductors up through the<BR>digital circuits, the OS, etc.<BR><BR>But then I've met some good programmers who didn't know all that, so for<BR>some people it's bviously not neccessarily.<BR><BR>&gt; p.s. equating lines of code (LOC) to program usefulness is a facetious<BR>&gt; measurement. A single line of tcl can equate to dozens of lines of Motif,<BR>&gt; let alone C or C++. Sometimes the only thing more LOC indicate is that the<BR>&gt; programmer has made a bad choice of implementation language.<BR><BR>&lt;grin&gt;<BR>My first job as a C++ Programmer involved me steadily reducing the<BR>application's LOC for the first three months I worked on it !<BR><BR>A high LOC usually means that your being paid or evaluated on a LOC basis.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:11:08 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>&gt; I won't have a chance to look at Jade for about another four hours, but<BR>&gt; please don't let people start with Java (or any other garbage-collected<BR>&gt; language, for that matter). It's absolutely dire what languages like<BR>&gt; that, and other features that pick up the programmer's mess for him, can<BR>&gt; do to the skill set of a beginner.<BR><BR>I disagree completely.<BR>Its not the programmer's mess, its the language's mess.<BR><BR>Java enforces some good programming skills.<BR>If a person ever has to program in an older language such as C, they should<BR>be trained for that then.<BR><BR>The point is to get good programming practices ingrained first, and _then_<BR>move onto the<BR>hard stuff.<BR><BR>&gt; If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start<BR>&gt; with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and<BR>&gt; pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them<BR>&gt; behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.<BR><BR>Pointers are something that should not be worried about in modern<BR>programming at all.<BR><BR>If I was writing in C now, the first thing I would do would be to implement<BR>smart memory management , and then make sure nothing in the program used<BR>anything but that. You do this by replacing the compiler's implementation of<BR>alloc, malloc, and calloc., and the implementation of free, if your compiler<BR>is not already smart enough to do this for you.<BR><BR>Either that or I'd invest in a tool such as Purify. My time is too expensive<BR>to waste on either programming so defensively I completely avoid such errors<BR>or to muck around finding the errors afterwards.<BR><BR>Assembly is something that that should never be used by a modern programmer,<BR>except in very limited areas, such as very small embedded devices (ones that<BR>can't be programmed in Java or C++ ) and when you're after the last ounce of<BR>speed, such as in a 3D-engine. So only the few people who work in those ares<BR>need to know it.<BR><BR>It's like microcode, who programs in microcode? Only those that are<BR>implementing chips.<BR>Would you suggest beginning programmers are taught Microcode?<BR>It's the same with Assembler.<BR><BR>BTW, pointers and memory management are _only_ relevant when dealing with<BR>languages that have such concepts. Only the C family languages have this,<BR>there are a lot of languages out there that do not have such concepts, or<BR>like Java, manage them for you.<BR><BR>You can go an entire career without ever using anything that forces the<BR>programmer to handle memory management, in fact there are machine<BR>architectures that _prevent_ the programmer from doing so (effectively you<BR>_can't_ program in C on these architectures without running it in a VM).<BR><BR>Beginners should never be taught C or assembly language.<BR>That would be almost as bad as learning on VB.<BR>&lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Anything else, and you produce people who don't have an appreciation for<BR>&gt; how the system actually works; rather, they're stuck with magic-boxism<BR>&gt; and when the underlying system comes back at them, they're lost at sea.<BR>&gt; And the poor bastard who has to clean up the ensuing mess is *really*<BR>&gt; screwed.<BR><BR>That just implies that the conmpany employing them is stupid.<BR>If you let people program C or assembler without training them, you get what<BR>you've paid for.<BR>Same goes for any language for that matter.<BR><BR>And it's easy to find pointer errors anyway, that what tools like Purify are<BR>for. If you haven't got such tools, write them yourself, it's not dificult<BR>and it's more efficient than hunting pointer errors by hand.<BR><BR>It's far more important that programmers are taught good generic programming<BR>practices than that they are taught the foibles of specific archaic<BR>languages such as C.<BR><BR>BTW, although I can program in C, I haven't done so professionally since<BR>1993, no-one in the areas I've been working is still using it (I'm working<BR>mainly for major telecommunications companies and web-based stuff), they are<BR>at least using C++, and every C++ project I've worked on has used some form<BR>of smart memory management that protected programmers from pointer errors.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:12:54 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson<BR>&gt; Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Yep. They had an 'out of memory' error the other day. First he <BR>&gt; &gt; gave it another&nbsp; 4gigs (as far as anyone could tell it shouldn't <BR>&gt; &gt; have been out of memory).&nbsp; Nothing. Gave it another 10gigs. <BR>&gt; &gt; Nothing. Gave it another 40gigs.<BR>&gt; &gt; Went fine, and they even got some of it back.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; My favorite oracle story was trying to install 8i (I think) and <BR>&gt; discovering that the java-based installer wouldn't run with less <BR>&gt; than 512MB of memory and a gig of swap...<BR><BR>At least it makes sure you can't install it on an under-specced machine.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:47:52 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>[On programming languages and teaching them.]<BR>On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>[snip much stuff, point here is pointers and memory management]<BR>&gt; Either that or I'd invest in a tool such as Purify. My time is too expensive<BR>&gt; to waste on either programming so defensively I completely avoid such errors<BR>&gt; or to muck around finding the errors afterwards.<BR><BR>&lt;tongue-in-cheek&gt;<BR>Purify or these other measures (wrapping memory management in your own<BR>routines) are completely irrevelant.<BR><BR>Real programmers write correct code when they first write it - so, no need<BR>for cumbersome carbage collection and such stuff.<BR>&lt;/tongue-in-cheek&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Assembly is something that that should never be used by a modern programmer,<BR>&gt; except in very limited areas, such as very small embedded devices (ones that<BR>&gt; can't be programmed in Java or C++ ) and when you're after the last ounce of<BR>&gt; speed, such as in a 3D-engine. So only the few people who work in those ares<BR>&gt; need to know it.<BR><BR>I think that knowing some assembly is mandatory for being a good<BR>programmer. Being a computer science minor in an university, this might be<BR>somewhat biased opinion, but still, I consider the knowledge of the<BR>machine beneath the HLL essential.<BR><BR>Not that people without assembly knowledge couldn't program, and the<BR>assembly languages change with processors, but they do still have many<BR>things in common.<BR><BR>At least this could teach the fledgling programmers that TANSTAAFL...<BR>even with carbage collection.<BR><BR>&gt; Beginners should never be taught C or assembly language.<BR>&gt; That would be almost as bad as learning on VB.<BR><BR>I am more and more inclined towards Scheme as the first programming<BR>language (yes, 'Structure and interpretation of computer programs' has<BR>influenced me). Java has much too much bells and whistles for the<BR>beginner.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>+++++++++[&gt;+++++++++&lt;-]&gt;-.&lt;+++++[&gt;+++&lt;-]++&gt;++.&lt;++[&gt;++++&lt;-]+&gt;+.&lt;++[&gt;----<BR>&lt;-]&gt;-.&gt;+++[&gt;++++++++++&lt;-]++&gt;++pare@iki.fi&lt;+[&gt;++++&lt;-]&gt;+.-&gt;+[&gt;++++[&lt;&lt;---&gt;<BR>&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;.&gt;&gt;+++++++[&lt;++++++++++&gt;-]++++[&lt;+++++&gt;-]&lt;-.&gt;[-]&gt;+++[&gt;++[&lt;&lt;&lt;----&gt;&gt;<BR>&lt;&gt;&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;&lt;.+.&gt;[-]++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;.++.[-]&gt;[-]++++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;++.&gt;&gt;++[&gt;++[&gt;-&lt;-]&lt;--]<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:58:00 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>On Tuesday, March 6, 2001, at 11:47 AM, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I think that knowing some assembly is mandatory for being a good <BR>&gt; programmer. Being a computer science minor in an university, this might be <BR>&gt; somewhat biased opinion, but still, I consider the knowledge of the <BR>&gt; machine beneath the HLL essential. <BR><BR>I'm torn on this. I 'd disagree were it not for the fact that my first contract (1996) had some assembler in it. Knowing the principles is important, but learning assembler is like translating Beowulf on English courses.<BR><BR>&gt; I am more and more inclined towards Scheme as the first programming <BR>&gt; language (yes, 'Structure and interpretation of computer programs' has <BR>&gt; influenced me). <BR><BR>Lisp is the Sanskrit of the computing world. Designed by the high priests to look profound and keep out heathens.<BR><BR>&gt; Java has much too much bells and whistles for the <BR>&gt; beginner. <BR><BR>It never used to. Inner classes: nooooooo! :-(<BR><BR>ObTrav: Yes, you have Computer - 3. Now, this local computer looks simple, but you need to figure out the language. You do have Linguistics - 1+, don't you? What do you mean every computer uses Vilin (the standard Vilani Instruction set)? Didn't you stay awake for the "other languages" section of the course? Oh dear...<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/dylan<BR>"The idea behind Dylan-to offer a range of dynamism appropriate to each piece of an application-feels right, and after using Dylan you will become frustrated with C++ and Java." - Software Development Magazine. <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:11:18 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller software project<BR><BR>Mark Preston wrote:<BR>&gt; Peter, did you make sure to get the patched version of InterBase? The<BR>&gt; one covering the security hole announced a couple of weeks ago? If<BR>&gt; not, swap to mySQL for now (I'm advising my clients to do the same,<BR>&gt; BTW) and switch back later when the patch is in.<BR><BR>*Now*&nbsp; you&nbsp; tell&nbsp; me!&nbsp; &lt;grin&gt;&nbsp; Status&nbsp; so&nbsp; far,&nbsp; I've&nbsp; downloaded<BR>InterBase 6.01 (including the 10Mb documentation) ...&nbsp; on&nbsp; a&nbsp; 56K<BR>modem running at 44K ... and installed it.&nbsp; Then figured out&nbsp; out<BR>to create a database (I'm a programmer, not a DBA ... will need a<BR>"Dummy's Guide" set of instructions&nbsp; for&nbsp; non,&nbsp; er,&nbsp; cyberheads).<BR>Then recreated the basic table&nbsp; structure&nbsp; I&nbsp; had&nbsp; in&nbsp; my&nbsp; Access<BR>database&nbsp; in&nbsp; InterBase&nbsp; via&nbsp; an&nbsp; SQL&nbsp; script&nbsp; (very&nbsp; basic,&nbsp;&nbsp; no<BR>constraints or anything yet).&nbsp; Ran out of time to go further&nbsp; due<BR>to RL activities.<BR><BR>As for mySQL ... it shouldn't matter.&nbsp; As long&nbsp; as&nbsp; the&nbsp; database<BR>(mySQL, InterBase, Oracle,&nbsp; whatever&nbsp; floats&nbsp; yer&nbsp; boat)&nbsp; as&nbsp; SQL<BR>compliant, and on Windows is ODBC compliant (other platforms&nbsp; use<BR>whatever the equvalent) then it shouldn't matter what&nbsp; technology<BR>you use.&nbsp; The requirement for a 'free'&nbsp; database&nbsp; technology&nbsp; was<BR>just so people didn't have to shell out money for a&nbsp; database&nbsp; to<BR>support free software.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:25:18 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Astrogation design<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Paul Campbell<BR>&gt; Sent: 04 March 2001 15:29<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Astrogation design<BR>&gt;<BR>[snip]<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The root objects in my design were to be Universe objects, allowing<BR>&gt; multiple meilieus to be stored in the same DB.&nbsp; Similar to<BR>&gt; Galactic's<BR>&gt; ability.<BR>&gt;<BR>Check out the XML document example I posted - it allows sectors<BR>(that's all I've sent so far) to be defined with different data for<BR>your different "universes". Simplifies the data transport since you<BR>use the same base data for all of them and just get the data you need<BR>for the "universe" you are dealing with. It also allows - because of<BR>that - the use of house rules and locally run campaign data.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:30:46 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Astrogation design<BR><BR>Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>My original Access DB (now converted into InterBase/SQL) had<BR><BR>Sector Table (key = sector id)<BR>&nbsp; sector id&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; char(2)<BR>&nbsp; name&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; varchar(50)<BR>&nbsp; x position&nbsp; &nbsp; integer&nbsp; &lt;-- in sectors relative to 3I core sector<BR>&nbsp; y position&nbsp; &nbsp; integer&nbsp; &lt;-- in sectors relative to 3I core sector<BR><BR>Subsector Table (key = sector id + subsector id)<BR>&nbsp; sector id&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; char(2)<BR>&nbsp; subsector id&nbsp; char(1)<BR>&nbsp; name&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; varchar(50)<BR><BR>Subsector Position Table (key = subsector id)<BR>&nbsp; subsector id&nbsp; char(1)<BR>&nbsp; x position&nbsp; &nbsp; integer&nbsp; &lt;-- value 1-4<BR>&nbsp; y position&nbsp; &nbsp; integer&nbsp; &lt;-- value 1-4<BR><BR>System Table (key = sector id + subsector id + subsector hex)<BR>&nbsp; sector id&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; char(2)<BR>&nbsp; subsector id&nbsp; char(1)<BR>&nbsp; subsector hex char(4)<BR>&nbsp; name&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; varchar(50)<BR>&nbsp; ... other attributes including UWP<BR><BR>Border Table (key = sector id + subsector id + subsector hex)<BR>&nbsp; sector id&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; char(2)<BR>&nbsp; subsector id&nbsp; char(1)<BR>&nbsp; subsector hex char(4)<BR>&nbsp; alignment&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; char(2)<BR>&nbsp; x position&nbsp; &nbsp; integer&nbsp; &lt;-- not normalised but needed for performance<BR>&nbsp; y position&nbsp; &nbsp; integer&nbsp; &lt;--&nbsp; "&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "&nbsp; &nbsp; "&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "<BR><BR>Star Table (key = sector id + subsector id + subsector hex + star id)<BR>&nbsp; sector id&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; char(2)<BR>&nbsp; subsector id&nbsp; char(1)<BR>&nbsp; subsector hex char(4)<BR>&nbsp; star id&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; integer<BR>&nbsp; ... other attributes<BR><BR>Hex Position Table (key = subsector id + subsector hex)<BR>&nbsp; subsector id&nbsp; char(1)<BR>&nbsp; subsector hex char(4)<BR>&nbsp; system hex&nbsp; &nbsp; char(4)<BR><BR>I had multiple DBs for multiple mileus.&nbsp; I hadn't gotten&nbsp; as&nbsp; far<BR>as the planets and moons level yet.&nbsp; A border table record (table<BR>row) does not exist for 'Na' hexes.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 09:59:13 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR>&gt;Despite how it may seem, I am *not* trying to be difficult. I am only a lay<BR>&gt;man.<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; No problem.&nbsp; I hope that I am not being to "preachy," I hold a<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; PhD in evolutionary biology.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Rates of speciation can be extremely variable.<BR>&gt;Hmm. Sounds reasonable. However, a four hundred thousand year period<BR>&gt;saw the rise (and in some cases, fall) of archaic H.sapiens, H.sapiens<BR>&gt;neanderthalis, and H.sapiens. Three (possibly more, given the vagueness of<BR>&gt;the archaic H.sapiens status) is a pretty good rate of change, especially<BR>&gt;when compared with the fruitflies. (I would assume it takes less to speciate<BR>&gt;with less complex animals, though this would only be a bald assumption.)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; These are all subspecies, not (as far as we can tell) species.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Currently we think that no new species have evolved in the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; hominid lineage in the past 300,000 years.&nbsp; So the fruitflies<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; have us beat cold.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Actually, there is no reason to think that "less complex"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; animals require less time to speciate, but those with short<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; generation times certainly may evolve into new species<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; faster.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;"The bottom line is that 300,000 years ago, "H.erectus" and<BR>&gt;&gt;"H.sapeins" may have beed the same people. . ."<BR>&gt;Again, I would have to admit the validity of this statement. However, this<BR>&gt;is because the H.sapiens of 300,000 years ago were not modern humans. I do<BR>&gt;not believe it stands to reason that all populations of H.sapiens naturally<BR>&gt;evolved into modern humans, given the conditions of ancient intervention.<BR>&gt;(Assuming no genetic manipulation.)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think that nobody is suggesting that all populations of H.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; sapiens have evolved into modern humans.&nbsp; In this sense,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for example, the Zhodani are not "modern humans" (that<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; is, not H. sapiens sapiens).&nbsp; Rather they are (to borrow<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; from Hans) H. sapiens zhodotlas.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:10:52 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;"Well, that is zero new species in that time period.&nbsp; Almost certainly most<BR>&gt;&gt;minor human races are new subspecies."<BR>&gt;What do you mean? H.sapiens (archaic) arouse specifically during that<BR>&gt;period, and is certianly a (or a combination of) differnt species then<BR>&gt;H.erectus.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Well, it is not really certain that H. erectus, especially H.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; erectus from 300,000 YA, could not interbreed successfully<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; with folks alive today.<BR><BR>&gt;Furthermore, the variation between H.sapiens neanderthalis and<BR>&gt;H.sapiens sapiens is far greater then is witnessed among the human<BR>&gt;popultions in traveller. (Generally speaking)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; That may be so, though it has been argued that a<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; neanderthal in jeans and a jacket might pass for an<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ugly citizen on the subway.<BR><BR>&gt;"Not sure anyone's claiming they did."<BR>&gt;No, they did not. However, implicit in the neglection of such a claim leaves<BR>&gt;my initial question. Why do we not see more variation?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think that what it comes down to is that there might<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be more variation, but there might not.&nbsp; Certainly on<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; worlds with substantially different conditions (different<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; gravity, star type, atmospheric density) we could<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; argue that more divergent evolution has taken place,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; but not necessarily speciation.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Of course, let's not forget that this is Traveller, a game.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sure it is "harder" SF than some games, but it still has<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; some soft spots.&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:18:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly<BR>&gt;&gt;120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the<BR>&gt;&gt;ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens.<BR>&gt;No. The archaic Homo sapiens (_Homo sapiens antiquitus_ as I call them) left<BR>&gt;behind on Earth evolved into _Homo sapiens sapiens_. The ones taken to Zhdant<BR>&gt;evolved into _Homo sapiens zhodotlas_. The ones take to Darryen evolved into<BR>&gt;_Homo sapiens darriensis_[*]. The ones taken to Vland evolved into _Homo<BR>&gt;sapiens bilandin_[*]. Etc. They all evolved into different subspecies. That's<BR>&gt;not the problem. The problem is that early canon sources implies that none of<BR>&gt;these subspecies diverged enough to become separate species. Unfortunately<BR>&gt;later Traveller authors forgot that and introduced some that were separate<BR>&gt;species.<BR>&gt;[*] Terms of my own coinage. Anyone with better ideas are welcome to suggest<BR>&gt;them.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Excellent.&nbsp; I move that we accept Hans' taxonomy!<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "archaic" humans: _Homo sapiens antiquitus_<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "modern" Terran (Solomani) humans: _Homo sapiens sapiens_<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "modern" Zhodani humans: _Homo sapiens zhodotlas_<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "modern" Daryan humans: _Homo sapiens darriensis_<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "modern" Vilani humans:&nbsp; _Homo sapiens bilandin_<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; All the same species, different subspecies or races, as you prefer.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3771<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, March 6 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3772<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Sapiens<BR>RE: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)<BR>RE: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt; <BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt; <BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt; <BR>Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt; <BR>The Core Route project has moved.<BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt; <BR>Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>RE: Sapiens<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>RE: sapiens<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:27:42 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR>&gt;Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;Probably the best known definition of a species is the biological species<BR>&gt;&gt;concept: "Species are groups of actually or potentially interbreeding<BR>&gt;&gt;populations that are reproductively isolated from other such groups."<BR>&gt;The definition used by the Traveller canon is set forth in _Solomani_. I don't<BR>&gt;have an exact quote here, but it basically uses the one about interfertility<BR>&gt;(and ignores the grey areas).<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I wasn't aware that canon had addressed this issue, but those<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; grey areas are where I would expect that at least some human<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "races" would fall.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;It should be kept in mind that this is not the only definition, and there are<BR>&gt;&gt;some problems with it.&nbsp; How do you classify species in which there is no<BR>&gt;&gt;sexual reproduction?<BR>&gt;Not really a problem when talking about hominid species.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; True of that particular case.&nbsp; My intent was to demonstrate<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that the concept of species is not restricted to the biological<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; species concept.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Hominid refers to H. sapiens along with its recent ancestors (back to the<BR>&gt;&gt;Astralopithecines) and close cousins (none of which survive). By the<BR>&gt;&gt;biological species definition, your Hominid "races" would technically be<BR>&gt;&gt;species, but shading the language is nothing new.<BR>&gt;I'm using 'races' the way Traveller canon does. Evidently the usage has changed<BR>&gt;over the4 years.<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I am not all that familiar with much of the Traveller canon, but<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; isn't it canon that the 'races' in that canon are interfertile?<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:36:50 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)<BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR>&gt;The fact that Neanderthal man does not arise until after the decline of<BR>&gt;archaic homo sapiens is a good indication of the possible variations that at<BR>&gt;least some of the dispersed human populations may have taken, as the same<BR>&gt;species is believed to be the last common ancestor of neanderthals and us.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I'm not sure that archaic H. sapiens "declined."&nbsp; Evidence<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; suggests that they continued to evolve, into H. sapiens<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; neanderthalis and H. sapiens sapiens (or something like<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that, the actual lineage is still contoversial).<BR><BR>&gt;As to your given reasons for why only archaic homo sapiens (very good ones,<BR>&gt;btw) there still exists issues.<BR>&gt;1) If the ancients found canines worth their time, you would think they<BR>&gt;would give other hominids a chance. Not that the canines don't have worth<BR>&gt;while advantages the ancients would want, but I see no reason why they would<BR>&gt;ignore H.erectus, a very successful species in the hominid line.<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Not being Ancients ourselves, it is hard to understand their<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; motivations, but one could assume that they chose a few<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; species that appeared to be optimal for each of their<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; purposes.&nbsp; That being said, they did not necessarily<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ignore H. erectus: at that time H. erectus and H. sapiens<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; may have been the same species (c.f. my commentary<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; on chronospecies).<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:49:29 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)<BR><BR>Genetic instability/mutability may also have been a factor. That and the Ancients may have had a sense of humour...<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR><BR>On Tuesday, March 6, 2001, at 02:36 PM, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Jeff writes: <BR><BR>&gt; &gt;1) If the ancients found canines worth their time, you would think they <BR>&gt; &gt;would give other hominids a chance. Not that the canines don't have worth <BR>&gt; &gt;while advantages the ancients would want, but I see no reason why they would <BR>&gt; &gt;ignore H.erectus, a very successful species in the hominid line. <BR>&gt; &lt;snipped&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Not being Ancients ourselves, it is hard to understand their <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; motivations, but one could assume that they chose a few <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; species that appeared to be optimal for each of their <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; purposes.&nbsp; That being said, they did not necessarily <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ignore H. erectus: at that time H. erectus and H. sapiens <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; may have been the same species (c.f. my commentary <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; on chronospecies). <BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/<BR>Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,<BR>Edition en Anglais.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:53:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance writes:<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR>&gt;Further, I think it also <BR>&gt;clearly states that in Traveller useage, the terms "Human" and "Humaniti" <BR>&gt;includes all the family Homoinoidae (which sort of knocks Han's Homonid <BR>&gt;Minor Races on the head, more's the pity).<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I'm not sure about "Homoinoidae" (typo?), but the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; taxonomy that I am familiar with is:<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Superfamily Hominoidea<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Family Hylobatidae (gibbons)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Family Hominidae<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subfamily Ponginae (orangutans)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subfamily Homininae<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Genus Gorilla (gorillas)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Genus Pan (chimpanzees)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Genus Australopithecus (extinct<BR>humanoids)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Genus Homo<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Homo habilis<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Homo erectus<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Homo sapiens (humans)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; insert Hans'<BR>subspecies here<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Members of the subfamily Homininae are refered to as Hominoids,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; while Hominids are members of the geni Australopithecus and Homo.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; There are variations on this taxonomy, so don't take it as gospel.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 07:07:17 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt; <BR><BR>"Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;On 2 Mar 01, at 16:35, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I'm sure that the mass market Imperial beers would be dehydrated<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; at the factory and then reconcentrated with water at the factory.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; They'd probably taste like it too.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;With the cost of transportation being so much, if local ingredients<BR>&gt; &gt;(or materials for things other than beer) can be found/made, wouldn't<BR>&gt; &gt;it be more likely to have franchises that distribute the Secret<BR>&gt; &gt;Formulae around?&nbsp; At least as the scale gets beyond a sector or so.<BR><BR>I just don't see that as too likely given how much air pressure,<BR>atmospheric conditions, gravity, etc will influence all this.<BR>To get uniform booze (not necessarily good booze) but uniform<BR>booze you need uniform conditions. I see this as being easier with<BR>concentrate. YMMV.<BR><BR>&gt; Rob, read the sidebar about "Brubek's" in "GT: Starports", page 86. You'll<BR>&gt; note that it (Brubek's) is an Imperium-wide chain and they ship their beer<BR>&gt; as a stable concentrate, to be reconstituted on site.&nbsp; Now, I not saying that<BR>&gt; what you describe isn't done, but it would seem that the alternative method<BR>&gt; is canon, <BR><BR>1) GURPS Traveller is _not_ canon, it is a variant. Note that I<BR>am not saying it's not good.<BR><BR>2) I was referring more to booze you buy in a store and take home<BR>rather than booze you buy in a bar and drink their. 'Tap' drinks<BR>may well be different from 'bottled' drinks.<BR><BR>&gt; at least for the largest chain of that type in the Imperium.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:29:57 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt; <BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 7:07, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;With the cost of transportation being so much, if local ingredients<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;(or materials for things other than beer) can be found/made, wouldn't<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;it be more likely to have franchises that distribute the Secret<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;Formulae around?&nbsp; At least as the scale gets beyond a sector or so.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I just don't see that as too likely given how much air pressure,<BR>&gt; atmospheric conditions, gravity, etc will influence all this.<BR>&gt; To get uniform booze (not necessarily good booze) but uniform<BR>&gt; booze you need uniform conditions. I see this as being easier with<BR>&gt; concentrate. YMMV.<BR><BR>Sorry - I didn't make myself clear - I meant the concentrate form as <BR>opposed to distributing the recipe.&nbsp; I agree with you, if you ship <BR>physical materials, a concentrate would be more economical than the <BR>full brew.&nbsp; And the transportation might have adverse affects on the <BR>product (although I wonder about the taste of a "Jumpspace Stout"...).<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:39:04 +0000<BR>From: Rob Myers &lt;robm@h2g2.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt; <BR><BR>An interstellar empire founded on commerce will know the value of good branding. Product fetishism is a good way of ensuring brand loyalty. <BR>"Yeah, you could buy some of that local swarf, or we can reconstitute you some official IISS brew, all the way from Sylea. This is the real stuff!"<BR><BR>Distributing concentrates also keeps recipes/production methods secret. See Coke. IIRC the only people outside of Coke who know the recipe are the Israeli high rabbinical types, who declared it kosher. I'm sure you can get an ObTrav or two from this. :-)<BR><BR>- - Rob.<BR><BR>On Tuesday, March 6, 2001, at 04:29 PM, Rob Davenport wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Sorry - I didn't make myself clear - I meant the concentrate form as&nbsp; <BR>&gt; opposed to distributing the recipe.&nbsp; I agree with you, if you ship&nbsp; <BR>&gt; physical materials, a concentrate would be more economical than the&nbsp; <BR>&gt; full brew.&nbsp; And the transportation might have adverse affects on the&nbsp; <BR>&gt; product (although I wonder about the taste of a "Jumpspace Stout"...). <BR><BR>- --<BR>JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/<BR>Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,<BR>Edition en Anglais.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:06:18 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>Robert O'Connor writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Given that the desired storage temperature for antihydrogen seems to be on<BR>&gt; the order of 2 Kelvin, I think power consumption has been omitted for ease<BR>&gt; of in-game housekeeping rather than D. Pulver knowing more about the<BR>&gt; subject than R. Forward.<BR><BR>Also, I think its assumed that devices which can't afford to ever have a power<BR>failure include dedicated power sources to make sure they don't.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:09:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>Mikko V. I. Parviainen writes:<BR>&gt; On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; None of the admins here will touch a HP-UX box with a ten foot<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; bargepole, unless there's a primed C4 charge on the end of it. <BR>&gt; &gt; HP-UX isn't quite that bad.&nbsp; The real problem is that you should never<BR>&gt; &gt; touch Unix windowing systems with a 10' pole.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; With my meager experience in different flavors of UNIX(r) I agree<BR>&gt; wholeheartedly with people who say that Packard should have had his name<BR>&gt; first.<BR><BR>Hm...I tend to reserve my personal malice for AIX, with their insistence on<BR>doing everything just a little bit differently.&nbsp; I'm generally tolerant of<BR>solaris, linux, and digital unix, and I haven't used IRIX.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:15:46 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt; <BR><BR>Rob Myers wrote:<BR>&gt; An interstellar empire founded on commerce will know the <BR>&gt; value of good branding. Product fetishism is a good way of <BR>&gt; ensuring brand loyalty. <BR>&gt; "Yeah, you could buy some of that local swarf, or we can <BR>&gt; reconstitute you some official IISS brew, all the way from <BR>&gt; Sylea. This is the real stuff!"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Distributing concentrates also keeps recipes/production <BR>&gt; methods secret. See Coke. IIRC the only people outside of <BR>&gt; Coke who know the recipe are the Israeli high rabbinical <BR>&gt; types, who declared it kosher. I'm sure you can get an ObTrav <BR>&gt; or two from this. :-)<BR><BR>Budweisser bought in Europe is actually brewed in Europe (printed<BR>very small on the ads).&nbsp; And that's on the same planet.<BR><BR>Meanwhile,&nbsp; there&nbsp; was&nbsp; an&nbsp; incident&nbsp; recently&nbsp; that&nbsp; highlighted<BR>something:&nbsp; A diabetic died recently&nbsp; after&nbsp; drinking&nbsp; a&nbsp; can&nbsp; of<BR>Pepsi Max.&nbsp; Pepsi Max in the UK is&nbsp; made&nbsp; with&nbsp; neutrasweet,&nbsp; but<BR>this can was bought on the grey market from Canada ... Pepsi&nbsp; Max<BR>in Canada is made with sugar.<BR><BR>I think it unlikely that Sylean beer would be shipped all the way<BR>to the frontier (even in concentrate form).&nbsp; More likely that the<BR>recipe&nbsp; would&nbsp; be&nbsp; sent&nbsp; (by&nbsp; courier)&nbsp; to&nbsp;&nbsp; subsidiary&nbsp;&nbsp; brewing<BR>companies.<BR><BR>Small amounts of novelty items get shipped, large amounts of mass<BR>market items get produced locally under licence.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:40:11 -0800<BR>From: clifford n linehan &lt;cnl.rubicon@juno.com&gt;<BR>Subject: The Core Route project has moved.<BR><BR>Greetings All,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; On March 01, 2001 the Homepage.com, a free web page provider, issued<BR>notice that all service to its free hosted web pages will be discontinued<BR>as of March 31, 2001.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Over the past few days I have transfered the Core Route Project to its<BR>new home.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Traveller Core Route http://www.geocities.com/traveller_core_route<BR><BR>Thanks for your time,<BR><BR>Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com<BR>http://www.geocities.com/traveller_core_route<BR>Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.<BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:53:17 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Budweisser bought in Europe is actually brewed in Europe (printed<BR>&gt;very small on the ads).&nbsp; And that's on the same planet.<BR><BR>And Budweiser in Canada is brewed in Canada, and makes a big deal of it. <BR>American beer has such a bad reputation in Canada that Bud's ad tagline is <BR>"Brewed in Canada to Canadian Strength" or something along those lines.<BR><BR>They don't seem to realize that the facts of the matter are irrelevant now. <BR>Hatred for American beer has become a cultural icon ide fixe; they could <BR>get Claudia Schiffer to serve it personally and it would make little <BR>difference at this point....<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:13:58 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>&gt;Given that the desired storage temperature for antihydrogen seems to be on<BR>&gt;the order of 2 Kelvin, I think power consumption has been omitted for ease<BR>&gt;of in-game housekeeping rather than D. Pulver knowing more about the subject<BR>&gt;than R. Forward.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;giggle, snort&gt;<BR><BR>Hello Robert,<BR>&nbsp; Forward's descriptions of the antimatter containment system by inference<BR>in his story, indicate that the antimatter bunkers do not weight some 25<BR>tons per unit as GURPS VEHICLES has it.&nbsp; GURPS VEHICLES makes the storage<BR>bunkers weigh more per cubic foot than hydrogen fusion containment bottles!<BR>As for David Knowing more than Forward - that is *one* topic I will never<BR>attempt to open my mouth and insert both feet.&nbsp; It is possible that one<BR>person knows more than the other person.&nbsp; Is Forward a trained scientist<BR>who knows more than Pulver?&nbsp; That I can't answer...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:12:27 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Paul Drye wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Budweisser bought in Europe is actually brewed in Europe (printed<BR>&gt; &gt;very small on the ads).&nbsp; And that's on the same planet.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; And Budweiser in Canada is brewed in Canada, and makes a big deal of it. <BR>&gt; American beer has such a bad reputation in Canada that Bud's ad tagline is <BR>&gt; "Brewed in Canada to Canadian Strength" or something along those lines.<BR>&gt; <BR>I believe that this is also true of Budweiser brewed in Japan.<BR><BR>Although I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would WANT to<BR>drink "Bad Weiser" beer if they could drink Asahi Super Dry for less<BR>money.<BR><BR>&gt; They don't seem to realize that the facts of the matter are irrelevant now. <BR>&gt; Hatred for American beer has become a cultural icon ide fixe; they could <BR>&gt; get Claudia Schiffer to serve it personally and it would make little <BR>&gt; difference at this point....<BR><BR>This is true, but you know, America earned this reputation.<BR><BR>There are good beers in America NOW, mostly from microbreweries, but when<BR>I was a kid and first began to drink beer, the choices were pretty much:<BR><BR>Budweiser, Miller, Coors, Schaefer, and Generic.&nbsp; (Somewhere, I have a<BR>picture of me, and about 9 other girls aged 17-21, in front of a giant<BR>tower of generic beer cans that we had emptied.&nbsp; What's really scary is<BR>that most of them were compulsive dieters, so it was generic "light" beer.<BR>Something I would never drink if I were paying for it.&nbsp; But I wasn't.)<BR><BR>On top of that, I lived in a 3.2 beer state in my teens.&nbsp; If you've never<BR>experienced the misery that is 3.2 beer, count yourself very, very lucky.<BR><BR>Kiri ^_^<BR><BR>(ps: Why should *I* care if Claudia Schiffer serves it?&nbsp; Now, get Takeshi<BR>Kaneshiro to serve it, and we'll talk.&nbsp; But only if I can drink it out of<BR>his mouth.&nbsp; Preferably naked.&nbsp; Yes, both of us, dammit!)<BR><BR>ObTrav:&nbsp; This has been an edict of:<BR><BR>Her Serene Majesty<BR>Kiri Moriyama-Estigarribia<BR>First Empress of the Second Imperium<BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:14:47 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>True, however nobody would claim that black and white people look differntly<BR>because they are seperate subspecies. We would expect the other subspecies<BR>to have significant differences above that observed among racially seperate<BR>populations. (As a side issue, is it known how long the racial variations<BR>have been developing?)<BR><BR>Jeff Yin<BR><BR>At minimum, any minor human race that evolved for 300K years<BR>under a radically different type of star will have vision that is at least<BR>somewhat different from Terran vision. Even the Darrians have far<BR>more difference between themselves and us and any modern<BR>Terran race does with each other and&nbsp; Compared to some of the<BR>others that have been described in various Traveller products, the<BR>Darrians are very human.<BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:14:46 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>There again, however, another necessary point has been overlooked. Horses<BR>and Donkeys *are* seperate species. According to GT, all of the human races<BR>are seperated only into subspecies. This would seem to support the inherent<BR>confliction to which I indicate.<BR><BR>Jeff Yin<BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Andrew<BR>Moffatt-Vallance<BR>Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 1:05 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR><BR>On 5 Mar 2001, at 22:09, Jeff wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Unfortunatly, GT is self conflicting.<BR><BR>&gt; GT Rim of Fire states on page 39:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; "A biologist's definition rewuires that different species cannot<BR>&gt; successfully breed with each other, but all known Human subspecies are at<BR>&gt; least somewhat interfertile. To be sure, some combinations are rare, or<BR>&gt; require medical intervention to bring about."<BR><BR>This in itself is not entirely contradictory. The keyword here is<BR>"somewhat".<BR>Horses and Donkeys (undeniably seperate species by any definition) are<BR>"somewhat" interfertile even with purely natural conception (it is extremely<BR>rare but not unheard of for *fertile* mules to be born). Add in advanced<BR>(early stellar+) medical intervention and RoF does not actually contradict<BR>GT.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:14:48 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>Certainly, but that point simply goes further to strengthening my claim of a<BR>GT contradiction.<BR><BR>Jeff Yin<BR><BR>Also, remember that one set of current evidence strongly indicates<BR>that modern humans and neanderthals could and did interbreed.<BR>Given that, we honestly have no idea how many of our other<BR>hominid ancestors we could interbreed with.<BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:12:35 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt; <BR><BR>At 11:29 AM 03/06/01 -0500, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Sorry - I didn't make myself clear - I meant the concentrate form as <BR>&gt;opposed to distributing the recipe.&nbsp; I agree with you, if you ship <BR>&gt;physical materials, a concentrate would be more economical than the <BR>&gt;full brew.&nbsp; And the transportation might have adverse affects on the <BR>&gt;product (although I wonder about the taste of a "Jumpspace Stout"...).<BR><BR>http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/307ale.htm<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>&nbsp; http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>limbs!"&nbsp; - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:17:45 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR>&gt; Hello Robert,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Forward's descriptions of the antimatter containment system by inference<BR>&gt; in his story, indicate that the antimatter bunkers do not weight some 25<BR>&gt; tons per unit as GURPS VEHICLES has it.&nbsp; GURPS VEHICLES makes the storage<BR>&gt; bunkers weigh more per cubic foot than hydrogen fusion containment bottles!<BR><BR>How dense does forward think antimatter storage can be?&nbsp; Space gives a ratio<BR>of 250,000:1 at TL 9, which is not particularly bad and certainly better than<BR>any modern system.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; As for David Knowing more than Forward - that is *one* topic I will never<BR>&gt; attempt to open my mouth and insert both feet.&nbsp; It is possible that one<BR>&gt; person knows more than the other person.&nbsp; Is Forward a trained scientist<BR>&gt; who knows more than Pulver?&nbsp; That I can't answer...<BR><BR>Forward almost certainly does know more.&nbsp; However, he makes up for it by being<BR>wildly optimistic.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:22:31 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>At 09:59 AM 03/06/01 -0400, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; These are all subspecies, not (as far as we can tell) species.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Currently we think that no new species have evolved in the<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; hominid lineage in the past 300,000 years.&nbsp; So the fruitflies<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; have us beat cold.<BR><BR>See sig.&nbsp; :)<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.&nbsp; On the<BR>other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Rich Clancey<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:21:17 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Sapiens<BR><BR>At 08:26 PM 03/05/01 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Just out of curiosity - what is the oldest non-fossilized set of bones<BR>&gt;ever discovered?<BR><BR>The Jakov mammoth, found intact and fozen in Siberia, is around 20,000<BR>years old.&nbsp; This is the beatie featured on the Discovery Channel.<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:24:51 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>The issue before was 400,000 years (The "official" values for GT), which<BR>would extend to include archaic H.sapiens. Do the fruit flies show as much<BR>variation among their species as neanderthals and modern man do as<BR>subspecies? I seem to recall that the lines in these kind of things are<BR>pretty blurry, and it would seem that the actual physical and genetic<BR>differences are more significant then taxonomic accuracy.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; "These are all subspecies, not (as far as we can tell) species. Currently<BR>we think that no new species have evolved in the<BR>hominid lineage in the past 300,000 years.&nbsp; So the fruitflies have us beat<BR>cold."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; "I think that nobody is suggesting that all populations of H.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; sapiens have evolved into modern humans.&nbsp; In this sense,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for example, the Zhodani are not "modern humans" (that<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; is, not H. sapiens sapiens).&nbsp; Rather they are (to borrow<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; from Hans) H. sapiens zhodotlas."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Then the issue remains as before. In over 300,000 years of seperation, why<BR>are there not more significant changes between the human races? Adding a<BR>zhodotlas to the end of H.sapiens may classify them as a new subspecies,<BR>which I am not taking issue with. But why the lack of physical changes?<BR><BR>Jeff Yin<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:28:50 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "Well, it is not really certain that H. erectus, especially H.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; erectus from 300,000 YA, could not interbreed successfully<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; with folks alive today."<BR><BR>Well, it is possible (as another user has pointed out) to interbreed<BR>seperate species sometimes. I get the feeling that these terms hold a lot of<BR>gray areas.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; "That may be so, though it has been argued that a<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; neanderthal in jeans and a jacket might pass for an<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ugly citizen on the subway."<BR><BR>Having ridden a subway, I would agree that a freakish appearence would not<BR>necessarily be an especially consipicous trait.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; "I think that what it comes down to is that there might<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be more variation, but there might not.&nbsp; Certainly on<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; worlds with substantially different conditions (different<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; gravity, star type, atmospheric density) we could<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; argue that more divergent evolution has taken place,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; but not necessarily speciation.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Of course, let's not forget that this is Traveller, a game.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sure it is "harder" SF than some games, but it still has<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; some soft spots.&nbsp; :)"<BR><BR>You are probably right, I'm just not smart enough for the gearhead threads.<BR>In the end, then, it would seem reasonable, though not necessarily canon, to<BR>have a human species somewhere continuing the neanderthal line, or even<BR>taking a different route after H.erectus.<BR><BR>Jeff Yin<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:30:21 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>&gt;ps: Why should *I* care if Claudia Schiffer serves it?<BR><BR>Well, broken engagement or not, she could probably get you that hunk David <BR>Copperfield's home phone number....<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:32:26 -0800<BR>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Jeff writes:<BR>&gt; &gt;Despite how it may seem, I am *not* trying to be difficult. I am only<BR>&gt; &gt;a lay man.<BR>&gt; &lt;snipped&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; No problem.&nbsp; I hope that I am not being to "preachy," I hold a<BR>&gt; PhD in evolutionary biology.<BR><BR>Not at all.&nbsp; I at least have very much enjoyed hearing you discuss <BR>these issues, your knowledge definitely trumps my mere MA in <BR>cultural anthro.<BR><BR>So, is opinion still strongly divided about modern <BR>human/neanderthal interbreeding, or have some of the recent <BR>intermediate skeletons mostly settled that issue?<BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3772<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xa03.mx.aol.com (rly-xa03.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.72]) by air-xa04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:36:50 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xa03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:36:32 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA44124;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:32:57 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:32:14 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA44069<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:32:14 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:32:14 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103061832.NAA44069@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3772<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, March 6 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3773<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>Bye<BR>Hi<BR>Re: Astrogation design<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: Astrogation design<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Question on cloning...<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>Re: Sapiens<BR>Re: Hi<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Real world Travelling:&nbsp; Madison, Wisconsin<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>RE: sapiens<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:33:44 -0800<BR>From: Russell Bornschlegel &lt;kaleja@estarcion.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start<BR>&gt; &gt; with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and<BR>&gt; &gt; pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them<BR>&gt; &gt; behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Pointers are something that should not be worried about in modern<BR>&gt; programming at all.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; If I was writing in C now, the first thing I would do would be to implement<BR>&gt; smart memory management , and then make sure nothing in the program used<BR>&gt; anything but that. You do this by replacing the compiler's implementation of<BR>&gt; alloc, malloc, and calloc., and the implementation of free, if your compiler<BR>&gt; is not already smart enough to do this for you.<BR><BR>But if you don't understand pointers, you can't implement this memory <BR>management in the first place! You have the freedom to work at a higher <BR>level (smart memory management) only because you already know how things <BR>work at a lower level (dumb pointers). <BR><BR>&gt; Beginners should never be taught C or assembly language.<BR><BR>Well, I disagree; maybe they shouldn't be taught C first-thing, but <BR>they should probably learn it before they get too far into the higher-<BR>level languages -- if they want to be as flexible and adaptable as <BR>possible.<BR><BR>But today, most apps are written in C and C++. Heavily disciplined use of <BR>C++ can just about eliminate explicit pointer management, but any <BR>programmer in the real world is eventually going to be exposed to plain <BR>old pointers, and I'd really really prefer it if they'd learn the concepts,<BR>even if it were as "crude and unsafe but rebindable references". <BR><BR>Pointer education is like sex education -- you can pretend the subject<BR>doesn't exist, but the kids are going to be exposed to it eventually.<BR><BR>- -Russell B<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:41:22 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)<BR><BR>on 1/3/01 4:50 pm, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Hivers - Lisp.<BR>&gt;&gt; Solomani - C++.<BR>&gt;&gt; Zhodani - Smalltalk.<BR>&gt;&gt; K'Kree - VB.<BR>&gt;&gt; Droyne - Forth.<BR>&gt;&gt; Aslan - Males - BASIC <BR>&gt;&gt; Females - COBOL<BR>&gt;&gt; Vargr - Perl.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; And of course, Virus would use VBScript.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; And nobody uses stright C. That's so sad.<BR><BR>The Darrians used C, allowing them to reach their pinnacle of technology.<BR>Unfortunately, a sales weasel from Stellar Microsystems introduced them to<BR>Java and their tech capabilities collapsed.<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:41:22 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>on 2/3/01 12:15 pm, Volker at volker@greimann.de wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I once saw imported german beer in a US liquor store. Not with the<BR>&gt; rest of the beers, but with the hard liquor... ;-)<BR><BR>Having just departed from the UK, I can now look forward to decent beer at<BR>decent prices. When I was last over here in the Main Line (just outside<BR>Philly) I bought a case of some lovely Belhaven 80 Shilling (a Scottish<BR>brew). It was the most expensive thing in the store, and everybody was<BR>shocked that I'd pay so much for beer. I pointed out that the price was less<BR>than two thirds of what it would cost in a shop next door to the damn<BR>brewery. Lower duty, y'ken.<BR><BR>I'm currently drinking Stoudt's Scarlet Lady Ale ESB, a quite acceptable<BR>local brew.<BR><BR>Gordon (in Berwyn, near Bryn Mawr, but not in Wales).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:41:22 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering<BR><BR>on 4/3/01 11:19 pm, Dalton Spence at dalton.spence@hwcn.org wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; A lot of civil engineering seems to involve digging or blasting large<BR>&gt; holes in the ground or rock.<BR><BR>As the son of a civil engineer, I can assure you that the bulk of civil<BR>engineering work involves analysis and design, producing sample data,<BR>building mathematical models and dealing with suppliers and subcontractors.<BR>The blowing stuff up part is merely a perk of the job, but boy, what a perk.<BR>:)<BR><BR>However, it's unlikely that an engineer would want to use any military<BR>weapons systems for real excavation work. Perhaps for leisure, but not where<BR>precise measured ground charges are required.<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:41:22 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>on 5/3/01 5:38 pm, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; None of the admins here will touch a HP-UX box with a ten foot bargepole,<BR>&gt; unless there's a primed C4 charge on the end of it.<BR><BR>Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator will suffice.<BR><BR>&gt; HP-UX was a horrible FrankenUnix made of the corpses of a System V<BR>&gt; (HP's) and a BSD (Apollo's) implementations.<BR><BR>Which still beat Sequent Dynix hands down. Dynix (pre /ptx) was a system<BR>that had dual 'universes'. One was BSD and one was SysV. There were command<BR>line tools and system calls to invoke one or the other on demand,<BR>irrespective of which universe the shell was invoked from. Lunatics in their<BR>systems division would write tools and scripts that used both universes. It<BR>became a confused mess very quickly. Shudder.<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:42:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Paul Drye wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;ps: Why should *I* care if Claudia Schiffer serves it?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Well, broken engagement or not, she could probably get you that hunk David <BR>&gt; Copperfield's home phone number....<BR><BR>Hunk?&nbsp; David Copperfield?&nbsp; A hunk of what?<BR><BR>Ew.<BR><BR>Kiri<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:44:52 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Jeff wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "That may be so, though it has been argued that a<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; neanderthal in jeans and a jacket might pass for an<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ugly citizen on the subway."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Having ridden a subway, I would agree that a freakish appearence would not<BR>&gt; necessarily be an especially consipicous trait.<BR><BR>I'm absolutely certain that I have seen a few neanderthals on the SF Muni.<BR><BR>I'm not quite sure that I haven't seen the occasional australopithecine.<BR><BR>Kiri&nbsp; ^_^<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:59:58 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Bye<BR><BR>It's goodbye from me...<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:59:58 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Hi<BR><BR>...and it's hello from me.<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:56:50 +0000<BR>From: Paul Campbell &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Astrogation design<BR><BR>On Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 08:25:18PM -0000, Mark Preston wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; &gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Paul Campbell<BR>&gt; &gt; Sent: 04 March 2001 15:29<BR>&gt; &gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: Astrogation design<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; [snip]<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; The root objects in my design were to be Universe objects, allowing<BR>&gt; &gt; multiple meilieus to be stored in the same DB.&nbsp; Similar to<BR>&gt; &gt; Galactic's<BR>&gt; &gt; ability.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; Check out the XML document example I posted - it allows sectors<BR>&gt; (that's all I've sent so far) to be defined with different data for<BR>&gt; your different "universes". Simplifies the data transport since you<BR>&gt; use the same base data for all of them and just get the data you need<BR>&gt; for the "universe" you are dealing with. It also allows - because of<BR>&gt; that - the use of house rules and locally run campaign data.<BR><BR>This is good at the level where differences occur at the local level,<BR>and especially when the changes are in 'free text' fields as per your<BR>example.&nbsp; Problems arise when you start to develop Untilites that need<BR>to traverse this universe autonomously.&nbsp; Given two differing profiles<BR>for a star system which one do you use?<BR><BR>Personally I'm not convinced either is better of worse from a<BR>modelling point of view.&nbsp; However programatically I would prefer the<BR>parallel universes as they are easier to seperate at an early stage.<BR>And allow multiple unrelated milieus to reside safely within the same<BR>database.&nbsp; The benefits of this are demonstrated by Galactic.<BR><BR>If the point you were making was for universe specific *notes* such as<BR>in you XML example, then this could be handled by a flag on Notes<BR>objects, which I have yet to add to the schema but could be attached<BR>to any object in the database, from Universe to Planet to Room.&nbsp; It's<BR>a hierarchical database.&nbsp; How low do you want to go?<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24<BR>http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net<BR>jupiter: 6:47pm up 56 days, 8:27, 7 users, load average: 1.07, 1.19, 1.32<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:13:07 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>on 6/3/01 3:20 am, Mikko V. I. Parviainen at mvparvia@cc.hut.fi wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; With my meager experience in different flavors of UNIX(r) I agree<BR>&gt; wholeheartedly with people who say that Packard should have had his name<BR>&gt; first.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; This would create a more appropriate acronym for their UNIX(r) system...<BR><BR>Thanks Mikko, you've just become the first here to keyboard kill me. I'm<BR>currently wiping beer off a PowerBook. :)<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:35:01 +0000<BR>From: Simon Brodie &lt;mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Mr. Erickson,<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; On a related subject, can't low powered lasers currently be used to<BR>&gt; &gt; blind?&nbsp; I got this nagging memory of attempts to blind pilots with them.<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Just another figment of my little grey cells or is there a kernal of<BR>&gt; &gt; truth in it?<BR><BR>However, there is (AFAIK) no reason why the 'side effect' of any military&nbsp; lasing unit cannot cause temporary or permanent blindness.&nbsp; As long as the item's intended use and design spec does not call for optical<BR>damaging capabilities (but you just the military spec so that you get this as a 'bonus').<BR><BR>Si<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:11:46 +0000<BR>From: Paul Campbell &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Astrogation design<BR><BR>On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:30:46PM -0000, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;g&gt; I like your style of editing.<BR><BR>&gt; My original Access DB (now converted into InterBase/SQL) had<BR><BR>Good move.&nbsp; We have a guy on our network who keeps building 10,000+<BR>record tables in Access.&nbsp; This is driving our NetWare Admin nuts.&nbsp; He<BR>keeps having to reboot the server, cause it doesn't recover by itself.<BR><BR>Some questions.&nbsp; My thinking cap is back at work so excuse any lame<BR>ones.<BR><BR>Why are you using char(2) for you id fields instead of an integer<BR>field of some sort?&nbsp; Especially one tied to a Sequence.&nbsp; ('Autonumber'<BR>in Access lingo)<BR><BR>&gt; Sector Table (key = sector id)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; sector id&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; char(2)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; name&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; varchar(50)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; x position&nbsp; &nbsp; integer&nbsp; &lt;-- in sectors relative to 3I core sector<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; y position&nbsp; &nbsp; integer&nbsp; &lt;-- in sectors relative to 3I core sector<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Subsector Table (key = sector id + subsector id)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; sector id&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; char(2)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; subsector id&nbsp; char(1)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; name&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; varchar(50)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Subsector Position Table (key = subsector id)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; subsector id&nbsp; char(1)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; x position&nbsp; &nbsp; integer&nbsp; &lt;-- value 1-4<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; y position&nbsp; &nbsp; integer&nbsp; &lt;-- value 1-4<BR><BR>Any particular reason why this isn't part of the Subsector Table?&nbsp; I'm<BR>not saying you don't have a reason, I just don't see it.<BR><BR>&gt; System Table (key = sector id + subsector id + subsector hex)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; sector id&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; char(2)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; subsector id&nbsp; char(1)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; subsector hex char(4)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; name&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; varchar(50)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ... other attributes including UWP<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Border Table (key = sector id + subsector id + subsector hex)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; sector id&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; char(2)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; subsector id&nbsp; char(1)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; subsector hex char(4)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; alignment&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; char(2)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; x position&nbsp; &nbsp; integer&nbsp; &lt;-- not normalised but needed for performance<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; y position&nbsp; &nbsp; integer&nbsp; &lt;--&nbsp; "&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "&nbsp; &nbsp; "&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "<BR><BR>I'd suggest putting the Alignment in the System Table unless you<BR>specifically want to allocate Alignements to empty hexes.<BR><BR>&gt; Star Table (key = sector id + subsector id + subsector hex + star id)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; sector id&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; char(2)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; subsector id&nbsp; char(1)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; subsector hex char(4)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; star id&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; integer<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ... other attributes<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hex Position Table (key = subsector id + subsector hex)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; subsector id&nbsp; char(1)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; subsector hex char(4)<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; system hex&nbsp; &nbsp; char(4)<BR><BR>I don't understand what this last table represents.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24<BR>http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net<BR>jupiter: 6:57pm up 56 days, 8:37, 7 users, load average: 1.48, 1.34, 1.31<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:25:19 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>Simon Brodie writes:<BR><BR>&gt; However, there is (AFAIK) no reason why the 'side effect' of any military <BR>&gt; lasing unit cannot cause temporary or permanent blindness.&nbsp; As long as the item's intended use and design spec does not call for optical damaging capabilities (but you just the military spec so that you get this as a 'bonus').<BR><BR>Note, however, that microsecond optical opaquing systems which will protect<BR>from this are well on their way to being developed.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:29:58 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Question on cloning...<BR><BR>I know the basic process as it stands today. however Is it or will it be<BR>possable in the future to cloane people in say a tank of vat so that they<BR>are cloned fully grown? and if so the next question is how long would it<BR>take to train a clone to take an active part in society in the furture even<BR>if that is just a menial type job? I mean would they have developed some<BR>sort of "fast programming" method that will teach the clone quickly.<BR>Something like sixth day (or at least what i think they did in that movie i<BR>never saw it 8P)<BR><BR>The reason for asking is that the charicters are thinking about rescuing a<BR>person from their captors and they idea was if they could get a clone fast<BR>enough they could sneak in and switch them. truth is im not sure this is<BR>doable but thought i would throw it out to the mailing list to give me some<BR>feed back.<BR><BR>thanks for your info.<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:31:54 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; This is true, but you know, America earned this reputation.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; There are good beers in America NOW, mostly from microbreweries, but when<BR>&gt; I was a kid and first began to drink beer, the choices were pretty much:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Budweiser, Miller, Coors, Schaefer, and Generic.<BR><BR>One word: Prohibition. Prohibition was the Great Extinction for breweries in the US; prior to Prohibition, beer was made and consumed locally, and there were few (if any) national brands.<BR><BR>There's a really good, enjoyable book about the beer industry in America and how it got that way, written by the son of the man who started importing Heinekens to the US way back when.<BR><BR>_Beer blast :the inside story of the brewing industry's bizarre battles for your money_&nbsp; by Philip Van Munching <BR>Times Business pub. 1997<BR><BR>ISBN 0812963911<BR><BR>It's a pretty light, informative read by someone who was deep into the <BR>industry, and has lots of stories to tell, like the _first_ time Coors <BR>tried to market Zima, only it was antifreeze green...and how 'light <BR>beer' was originally invented to be a 'healthy alternative' and died in <BR>the market.<BR><BR>There's lots of oBTrav fodder in this book.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:35:45 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Sapiens<BR><BR>Douglas Berry wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; At 08:26 PM 03/05/01 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; Just out of curiosity - what is the oldest non-fossilized set of bones<BR>&gt;&gt; ever discovered?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The Jakov mammoth, found intact and fozen in Siberia, is around 20,000<BR><BR>Alas, now that they've started thawing it, it seems far less intact than they had hoped.<BR><BR>Saw that last night on Discovery News; the follow-up special about it is <BR>coming up soon.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:23:01 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Hi<BR><BR>At 01:59 PM 03/06/01 -0500, you wrote:<BR>&gt;...and it's hello from me.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Gordon.<BR><BR>Shades of the Two Ronnies!<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>&nbsp; http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,<BR>in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:40:36 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>Gordon Hundley wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Which still beat Sequent Dynix hands down. Dynix (pre /ptx) was a system<BR>&gt; that had dual 'universes'. One was BSD and one was SysV. There were command<BR>&gt; line tools and system calls to invoke one or the other on demand,<BR>&gt; irrespective of which universe the shell was invoked from. Lunatics in their<BR>&gt; systems division would write tools and scripts that used both universes. It<BR>&gt; became a confused mess very quickly. Shudder.<BR><BR>Why do I feel wild, manaiacal laughter welling up in me??? Gods, what a bender that THAT one must have been thought up on...<BR><BR>Anyway we used to have a large sign above the table holding all our consoles "You are in a maze of twisty little Unixes, all slightly different"<BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:55:29 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR>&gt;True, however nobody would claim that black and white people look differntly<BR>&gt;because they are seperate subspecies.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Actually, there are people who claim exactly that.&nbsp; Unfortunately,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; terms like "subspecies" carry emotional luggage.&nbsp; I believe that<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "subspecies" is more difficult to define than species, but where<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; humans are involved there are even more complications.<BR><BR>&gt;We would expect the other subspecies<BR>&gt;to have significant differences above that observed among racially seperate<BR>&gt;populations. (As a side issue, is it known how long the racial variations<BR>&gt;have been developing?)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; We would expect that it is possible that other subspecies<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (having evolved for the past 300,000 years on another world)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to have greater differences than those observed among<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "races" on Terra, but not necessarily so.&nbsp; In any event, I<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; am not aware of anything in canon that specifies that the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; various "races" of humaniti are no more different than the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Terran "races," but I am no canon expert.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:58:39 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>A magazine (I want to say Biblical Archaeology, but I could be wrong)<BR>had an article a year or so ago talking about Neanderthal/Sapien<BR>relations in the Holy Land.&nbsp; According to that article, the two races<BR>lived side-by-side for close on 50,000 years, but there was absolutely<BR>no evidence that they interbred.<BR><BR>A possible Sapien/Neanderthal cross was unearthed in a cave in Spain<BR>about the same time, but the individual in question was about 4 when he<BR>died, so his morphology was not well developed and his remains remain<BR>controversial.<BR><BR>DNA analysis of modern humans and the remains of neanderthals indicate<BR>they were fairly distantly related, though this is also somewhat<BR>controversial.<BR><BR><BR>- --- Jeff &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; Certainly, but that point simply goes further to strengthening my<BR>&gt; claim of a<BR>&gt; GT contradiction.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Jeff Yin<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Also, remember that one set of current evidence strongly indicates<BR>&gt; that modern humans and neanderthals could and did interbreed.<BR>&gt; Given that, we honestly have no idea how many of our other<BR>&gt; hominid ancestors we could interbreed with.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:02:26 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;Horses and Donkeys (undeniably seperate species by any definition) are<BR>&gt;&gt;"somewhat" interfertile even with purely natural conception (it is extremely<BR>&gt;&gt;rare but not unheard of for *fertile* mules to be born). Add in advanced<BR>&gt;&gt;(early stellar+) medical intervention and RoF does not actually contradict<BR>&gt;&gt;GT.<BR>&gt;There again, however, another necessary point has been overlooked. Horses<BR>&gt;and Donkeys *are* seperate species. According to GT, all of the human races<BR>&gt;are seperated only into subspecies. This would seem to support the inherent<BR>&gt;confliction to which I indicate.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; It certainly points to the grey areas that can arise.&nbsp; If 1 in 100,000<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; matings result in infertile offspring in our population (just a wild<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; guess, I have no idea how often this happens), then where do you<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; you start calling another population a separate species?&nbsp; When 1<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in 10,000 are infertile?&nbsp; 1 in 1,000?&nbsp; 1 in 100?&nbsp; 1 in 10?&nbsp; 9 in 10?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 99 in 100?&nbsp; 999 in 1,000?&nbsp; You get the idea.&nbsp; It is certainly<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; possible to have all those Traveller "races" as subspecies,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; possibly with some level of genetic incompatability.&nbsp; More different<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; than Terran "races," but all H. sapiens.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:04:28 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Real world Travelling:&nbsp; Madison, Wisconsin<BR><BR>I expect to be in Madison, Wisconsin on business for two or three days<BR>early next week.&nbsp; If anyone there would like to do dinner or whatever, or<BR>if you have suggestions for fun things to do, please email me off list.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:11:29 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR>&gt;The issue before was 400,000 years (The "official" values for GT), which<BR>&gt;would extend to include archaic H.sapiens.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I believe that the canon time frame is 300,000 YA for Traveller,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; but I couldn't swear to it.&nbsp; In any event, there is enough<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; uncertainty that the 100,000 year difference is not going to<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; sink anyone.<BR><BR>&gt;Do the fruit flies show as much<BR>&gt;variation among their species as neanderthals and modern man do as<BR>&gt;subspecies?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; That depends on what you mean by variation.&nbsp; A very large<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; can of several species of worms.&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>&gt;I seem to recall that the lines in these kind of things are<BR>&gt;pretty blurry, and it would seem that the actual physical and genetic<BR>&gt;differences are more significant then taxonomic accuracy.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I'm not sure what you mean by "taxonomic accuracy"?<BR><BR><BR>&gt;Then the issue remains as before. In over 300,000 years of seperation, why<BR>&gt;are there not more significant changes between the human races? Adding a<BR>&gt;zhodotlas to the end of H.sapiens may classify them as a new subspecies,<BR>&gt;which I am not taking issue with. But why the lack of physical changes?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Why should there be more physical change?&nbsp; You have<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; argued that it is possible that there could be significant<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; physical changes, but have given no reasons to expect<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; physical changes greater than those observed on Terra.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Nor it is necessarily true (AFAIK) that Zhodanis are no<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; more different from Vilani than eskimos are from<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; bushmen.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:18:38 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR>&gt;"Well, it is not really certain that H. erectus, especially H.<BR>&gt;erectus from 300,000 YA, could not interbreed successfully<BR>&gt;with folks alive today."<BR>&gt;Well, it is possible (as another user has pointed out) to interbreed<BR>&gt;seperate species sometimes. I get the feeling that these terms hold a lot of<BR>&gt;gray areas.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I believe that you may be missing the point.&nbsp; As of<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 300,000 YA, H. erectus and H. sapiens may have<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; been the same species.&nbsp; The fact that taxonomists<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; have recognized these two categories does not<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mean or imply that there were never individuals<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that could be said to belong to both categories.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This has nothing to do with two groups living at the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; same time being considered separate species and<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; yet being able to interbreed.&nbsp; This is about one<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; group happily interbreeding that might be<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; considered H. erectus and/or H. sapiens.<BR><BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR>&gt;You are probably right, I'm just not smart enough for the gearhead threads.<BR>&gt;In the end, then, it would seem reasonable, though not necessarily canon, to<BR>&gt;have a human species somewhere continuing the neanderthal line, or even<BR>&gt;taking a different route after H.erectus.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I've always wanted a navigator named Thag.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; :)<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3773<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-ye04.mx.aol.com (rly-ye04.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.201]) by air-ye01.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:21:16 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:20:06 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA49391;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:18:53 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:18:40 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA49355<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:18:40 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:18:40 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103062018.PAA49355@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3773<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tuesday, March 6 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3774<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>Re: Question on cloning...<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR>Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Re: Question on cloning...<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Help... Orbital Period Calculations!<BR>Re: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!<BR>RE: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!<BR>Re: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Another munchkin magnet from SMEG/OFF<BR>RE: License To Program<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>RE: New law in Australia<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:21:40 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Jeff writes:<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;Horses and Donkeys (undeniably seperate species by any definition) are<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;"somewhat" interfertile even with purely natural conception (it is extremely<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;rare but not unheard of for *fertile* mules to be born). Add in advanced<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;(early stellar+) medical intervention and RoF does not actually contradict<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;GT.<BR>&gt; &gt;There again, however, another necessary point has been overlooked. Horses<BR>&gt; &gt;and Donkeys *are* seperate species. According to GT, all of the human races<BR>&gt; &gt;are seperated only into subspecies. This would seem to support the inherent<BR>&gt; &gt;confliction to which I indicate.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; It certainly points to the grey areas that can arise.&nbsp; If 1 in 100,000<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; matings result in infertile offspring in our population (just a wild<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; guess, I have no idea how often this happens), then where do you<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; you start calling another population a separate species?&nbsp; When 1<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; in 10,000 are infertile?&nbsp; 1 in 1,000?&nbsp; 1 in 100?&nbsp; 1 in 10?&nbsp; 9 in 10?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 99 in 100?&nbsp; 999 in 1,000?&nbsp; You get the idea.&nbsp; It is certainly<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; possible to have all those Traveller "races" as subspecies,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; possibly with some level of genetic incompatability.&nbsp; More different<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; than Terran "races," but all H. sapiens.<BR><BR>There's genetic incompatibility and then there's genetic incompatibility.<BR><BR>The Rh factor caused lots of fetal deaths until we knew what it was and<BR>how to treat it; when a woman who didn't have this blood protein had a<BR>child with a man who did, the first one would often be OK, but subsequent<BR>ones would be miscarried due to her allergic reaction to the baby's blood<BR>protein that she didn't share.<BR><BR>There are all kinds of weird factors in blood (I used to work in a blood<BR>bank) that are specific to certain ethnicities or even to people born in<BR>certain isolated areas.&nbsp; Just matching the A/B/O blood group isn't nearly<BR>safe enough for transfusion.<BR><BR>I'm sure that if you took humans and kept them on different planets until<BR>they developed space travel, weird blood proteins and antibodies would be<BR>one of the first differences to manifest.&nbsp; I wouldn't want a blood<BR>transfusion from a Zhodani, even if we were the same blood type, unless it<BR>was thoroughly screened for such weirdnesses-- and I'm sure that if a<BR>healthy woman (let's not use me as an example for anything related to<BR>reproduction) from Earth tried to have a child with a Zhodani male, the<BR>chance of something like the Rh factor turning up would be pretty high.<BR><BR>This doesn't mean they're separate species, but it would make reproduction<BR>difficult without medical assistance.<BR><BR>Kiri<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:22:04 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>John Snead writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;No problem.&nbsp; I hope that I am not being to "preachy," I hold a<BR>&gt;&gt;PhD in evolutionary biology.<BR>&gt;Not at all.&nbsp; I at least have very much enjoyed hearing you discuss <BR>&gt;these issues, your knowledge definitely trumps my mere MA in <BR>&gt;cultural anthro.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Not for everything.&nbsp; Remember that a specialist is<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; someone who knows more and more about less and<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; less until they know everything about nothing.&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>&gt;So, is opinion still strongly divided about modern <BR>&gt;human/neanderthal interbreeding, or have some of the recent <BR>&gt;intermediate skeletons mostly settled that issue?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Human evolution is not my strong suit, but I believe<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that there is no sign of the issue being very settled.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:51:29 -0800<BR>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>Subject: Re: Question on cloning...<BR><BR>William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I know the basic process as it stands today. however Is it or will it<BR>&gt; be possable in the future to cloane people in say a tank of vat so<BR>&gt; that they are cloned fully grown? and if so the next question is how<BR>&gt; long would it take to train a clone to take an active part in society<BR>&gt; in the furture even if that is just a menial type job? I mean would<BR>&gt; they have developed some sort of "fast programming" method that will<BR>&gt; teach the clone quickly. Something like sixth day (or at least what i<BR>&gt; think they did in that movie i never saw it 8P)<BR><BR>Using anything remotely resembling current medical tech, growing <BR>a clone to adulthood will take ~20 years, just like for anyone else.<BR>In Traveller, growth quickening at a 100 x rate exists at TL13, that <BR>means those 20 years suddenly become more like 2 1/2 months.<BR><BR>OTOH, Traveller has never specifically discussed fast learning.&nbsp; The <BR>only equivalent would be the crude memory transfer described in <BR>Mega-Traveller (the clone gets basic info, anything that can be <BR>learned by rote (like languages and most basic physical tasks, but <BR>no detailed memories, skills, or personality traits), which is <BR>available at TL 16. Doable, but you'll need to find the right world.&nbsp; <BR>OTOH, while you can argue (somewhat dubiously) that just-vated a <BR>clone is not exactly a person, one which has had a memory <BR>transfer is definitely a person that will be able to walk speak, and <BR>express its (albeit fairly simple) wants.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>&gt; The reason for asking is that the charicters are thinking about<BR>&gt; rescuing a person from their captors and they idea was if they could<BR>&gt; get a clone fast enough they could sneak in and switch them. truth is<BR>&gt; im not sure this is doable but thought i would throw it out to the<BR>&gt; mailing list to give me some feed back.<BR><BR>A more moral (if far more expensive) option is a pseudobio robot. It <BR>won't be cheap, but you could make a robot that can pass as <BR>human.&nbsp; It's TL 15, but you could likely even grow the person's skin <BR>around it, which combined with careful shielding will allow it to pass <BR>nearly anything except a medical test.&nbsp; Of course, doing this will <BR>likely cost at minimum 500,000 Credits, more if you want it to be <BR>able to hold a simple human-seeming conversation.&nbsp; Probably more <BR>like 2 MCr.<BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:59:21 -0800<BR>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A magazine (I want to say Biblical Archaeology, but I could be wrong)<BR>&gt; had an article a year or so ago talking about Neanderthal/Sapien<BR>&gt; relations in the Holy Land.&nbsp; According to that article, the two races<BR>&gt; lived side-by-side for close on 50,000 years, but there was absolutely<BR>&gt; no evidence that they interbred.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A possible Sapien/Neanderthal cross was unearthed in a cave in Spain<BR>&gt; about the same time, but the individual in question was about 4 when<BR>&gt; he died, so his morphology was not well developed and his remains<BR>&gt; remain controversial.<BR><BR>Actually IIRC within the last 4-6 months archeologists have found <BR>additional intermediate skeletons, including I believe at least one <BR>adult (or perhaps they merely found one adult skeleton).&nbsp; Ian likely <BR>knows more than I.&nbsp; I saw it on<BR><BR>http://www.sciquest.com/cgi-<BR>bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/sci_level3.d2w/report?nav_banner=bio<BR>&amp;resource=articles&amp;gateway=B-evolut<BR><BR>If you are interested, go back through the previous articles for a few <BR>months. It's somewhere in there.<BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 08:12:45 +1100<BR>From: Rob &lt;rhoughto@one.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>Now all we need is a way to cross this with the "Hot Fusion in a can" thread...<BR><BR>any ideas anyone? Using a can of beer in the "fusion initiator" by accident and getting your V**** infected reactor drunk?<BR><BR>Rob<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:08:14 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>&gt; Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator<BR>&gt; will suffice.<BR><BR>Don't you mean det-cord loop? :)&nbsp; I didn't think cordite came in cord form.<BR>Mark?<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; HP-UX was a horrible FrankenUnix made of the corpses of a System V<BR>&gt; &gt; (HP's) and a BSD (Apollo's) implementations.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Which still beat Sequent Dynix hands down. Dynix (pre /ptx) was a system<BR>&gt; that had dual 'universes'. One was BSD and one was SysV. There<BR>&gt; were command<BR>&gt; line tools and system calls to invoke one or the other on demand,<BR>&gt; irrespective of which universe the shell was invoked from.<BR>&gt; Lunatics in their<BR>&gt; systems division would write tools and scripts that used both<BR>&gt; universes. It<BR>&gt; became a confused mess very quickly. Shudder.<BR><BR>Yea Gods!&nbsp; Glad I never had to mess with that crap...<BR><BR>Jesse<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:19:14 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; Note, however, that microsecond optical opaquing systems which will<BR>&gt; protect from this are well on their way to being developed.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Unfortunately microsecond switching is way too slow -- nanosecond<BR>pulses are trivial to achieve and with a fair bit of effort you can<BR>get picosecond pulses or shorter.&nbsp; Sure, you can protect against<BR>continuous-beam lasers, which may suffice for 'accidental' blinding<BR>from laser designators and such like.&nbsp; It would certainly not stop a<BR>pulsed laser that had a 'byproduct' of blinding.<BR><BR><BR>- - Tim<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:45:22 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 2:08 PM<BR>Subject: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator<BR>&gt; &gt; will suffice.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Don't you mean det-cord loop? :)&nbsp; I didn't think cordite came in cord<BR>form.<BR>&gt; Mark?<BR><BR>Yeah, det-cord or prima-cord.&nbsp; Cordite is a propellant made from<BR>nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine and petroleum jelly, usually extruded into<BR>spaghetti like strands, and used primarily by British and Empire military in<BR>smallarms and some artillery.<BR><BR>The combustion byproducts have a characteristic 'tangy' odor, the "reek of<BR>cordite".<BR><BR>Tod<BR>webmaster@cordite.com<BR>http://www.cordite.com<BR><BR>(among others)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:46:37 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 12:21, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I'm sure that if you took humans and kept them on different planets until they<BR>&gt; developed space travel, weird blood proteins and antibodies would be one of<BR>&gt; the first differences to manifest.&nbsp; I wouldn't want a blood transfusion from a<BR>&gt; Zhodani, even if we were the same blood type, unless it was thoroughly<BR>&gt; screened for such weirdnesses-- and I'm sure that if a healthy woman (let's<BR>&gt; not use me as an example for anything related to reproduction) from Earth<BR>&gt; tried to have a child with a Zhodani male, the chance of something like the Rh<BR>&gt; factor turning up would be pretty high.<BR><BR>&gt; This doesn't mean they're separate species, but it would make reproduction<BR>&gt; difficult without medical assistance.<BR><BR>Yes, but from what I understand (how it was explained to my wife and I) is <BR>that the Rh factor is only important for the *second* and subequent <BR>children (I stand ready to be corrected). That's a little different from being <BR>totally unable to interbreed without medical assistance.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:46:37 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Question on cloning...<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 12:51, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; OTOH, Traveller has never specifically discussed fast learning.&nbsp; The <BR>&gt; only equivalent would be the crude memory transfer described in <BR>&gt; Mega-Traveller (the clone gets basic info, anything that can be <BR>&gt; learned by rote (like languages and most basic physical tasks, but <BR>&gt; no detailed memories, skills, or personality traits), which is <BR>&gt; available at TL 16. Doable, but you'll need to find the right world.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; OTOH, while you can argue (somewhat dubiously) that just-vated a <BR>&gt; clone is not exactly a person, one which has had a memory <BR>&gt; transfer is definitely a person that will be able to walk speak, and <BR>&gt; express its (albeit fairly simple) wants.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>Uhmm, one of DGPs major sins (IMHO of course) was introducing mass <BR>cloning and rapid learning for the Terrans during the Interstellar Wars (S&amp;A <BR>Genassist). So that would put the technology at TL11 (or better option, just <BR>ignore this)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:46:37 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:14, Jeff wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; There again, however, another necessary point has been overlooked. Horses and<BR>&gt; Donkeys *are* seperate species. According to GT, all of the human races are<BR>&gt; seperated only into subspecies. This would seem to support the inherent<BR>&gt; confliction to which I indicate.<BR><BR>Only according to RoF (according to GT they are seperate species). The <BR>way I look at things is: if they need medical intervention to produce fertile <BR>offspring then biologically speaking they are a seperate species.<BR><BR>Hmmm, interesting. Obviously, for some reason the Imperium chooses to <BR>classify humans who clearly are biological distinct species as mere <BR>subspecies. "Look they're the same species, they can swap genetic <BR>material. Sure we have to use medical intervention to do it, but they're still <BR>swapping genetic material". Hmmm, maybe something to do with the <BR>Imperial discrediting the Solomani Movement (We're all just one big happy <BR>genome, honest).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:41:51 +1100 <BR>From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!<BR><BR>I am trying to calculate the orbital period of an artificial satellite<BR>above an earthlike world at an altitude of 1120 km<BR><BR>I use the formula from<BR>http://www.seds.org/pub/faq/Space_FAQ_04_13_-_Calculations, which is<BR><BR>P&nbsp; &nbsp; = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))<BR><BR>But keep comming up with around 6 minutes (373 seconds), which doesn't<BR>sound right. <BR><BR>I have tried this with a formula from an Astrophysics book I own,&nbsp; but<BR>come up with the same number...<BR><BR>Can someone walk me through the use of this formula so I can see if I am<BR>right or wrong.... <BR><BR>Then maybe this friday I will be able to confidantly tell my players how<BR>long it takes them to do a complete orbit....<BR><BR>sigh.....<BR><BR><BR><BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Paul Harris<BR>Dytech Solutions<BR>Ph: (03) 6224 4116<BR>Fax: (03) 6224 4117<BR>Mob: 0419 880 248<BR>Email: paul.harris@dytech.com.au<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:58:35 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!<BR><BR>Paul Harris writes:<BR>&gt; I am trying to calculate the orbital period of an artificial satellite<BR>&gt; above an earthlike world at an altitude of 1120 km<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I use the formula from<BR>&gt; http://www.seds.org/pub/faq/Space_FAQ_04_13_-_Calculations, which is<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; P&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; But keep comming up with around 6 minutes (373 seconds), which doesn't<BR>&gt; sound right. <BR><BR>Add the radius of the planet.&nbsp; Actual altitude is probably about 7,500 km.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:52:30 +1100 <BR>From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!<BR><BR>Doh.....!<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Anthony Jackson [mailto:ajackson@molly.iii.com]<BR>Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 9:59 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!<BR><BR><BR>Paul Harris writes:<BR>&gt; I am trying to calculate the orbital period of an artificial satellite<BR>&gt; above an earthlike world at an altitude of 1120 km<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I use the formula from<BR>&gt; http://www.seds.org/pub/faq/Space_FAQ_04_13_-_Calculations, which is<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; P&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; But keep comming up with around 6 minutes (373 seconds), which doesn't<BR>&gt; sound right. <BR><BR>Add the radius of the planet.&nbsp; Actual altitude is probably about 7,500<BR>km.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:05:22 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!<BR><BR>&gt;I am trying to calculate the orbital period of an artificial satellite<BR>&gt;above an earthlike world at an altitude of 1120 km<BR><BR>Are you mixing up the distance from the centre point of the planet with the <BR>height above the surface? An altitude of 1120 km is 7498 km from the <BR>centre....<BR><BR>In any case, there's a web-based calculator that will do this for you at:<BR><BR>http://www.bumply.com/2300/astro.htm<BR><BR>Second form down, "Planets and Satellite Orbital Calculations".<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt;I use the formula from<BR>&gt;http://www.seds.org/pub/faq/Space_FAQ_04_13_-_Calculations, which is<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;P&nbsp; &nbsp; = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;But keep comming up with around 6 minutes (373 seconds), which doesn't<BR>&gt;sound right.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I have tried this with a formula from an Astrophysics book I own,&nbsp; but<BR>&gt;come up with the same number...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Can someone walk me through the use of this formula so I can see if I am<BR>&gt;right or wrong....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Then maybe this friday I will be able to confidantly tell my players how<BR>&gt;long it takes them to do a complete orbit....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;sigh.....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>&gt;Paul Harris<BR>&gt;Dytech Solutions<BR>&gt;Ph: (03) 6224 4116<BR>&gt;Fax: (03) 6224 4117<BR>&gt;Mob: 0419 880 248<BR>&gt;Email: paul.harris@dytech.com.au<BR>&gt;------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:06:24 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On 6 Mar 2001, at 12:21, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; I'm sure that if you took humans and kept them on different planets until they<BR>&gt; &gt; developed space travel, weird blood proteins and antibodies would be one of<BR>&gt; &gt; the first differences to manifest.&nbsp; I wouldn't want a blood transfusion from a<BR>&gt; &gt; Zhodani, even if we were the same blood type, unless it was thoroughly<BR>&gt; &gt; screened for such weirdnesses-- and I'm sure that if a healthy woman (let's<BR>&gt; &gt; not use me as an example for anything related to reproduction) from Earth<BR>&gt; &gt; tried to have a child with a Zhodani male, the chance of something like the Rh<BR>&gt; &gt; factor turning up would be pretty high.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; This doesn't mean they're separate species, but it would make reproduction<BR>&gt; &gt; difficult without medical assistance.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Yes, but from what I understand (how it was explained to my wife and<BR>&gt; I) is that the Rh factor is only important for the *second* and<BR>&gt; subequent children (I stand ready to be corrected). That's a little<BR>&gt; different from being totally unable to interbreed without medical<BR>&gt; assistance.<BR><BR>Second and subsequent PREGNANCIES, not second and subsequent CHILDREN.<BR><BR>(Big difference.)<BR><BR>If she's had an abortion or miscarriage in the past and been sensitized to<BR>whatever factor it is, she'll still miscarry.&nbsp;&nbsp; Basically, you need<BR>medical assistance to interbreed-- she's got to have the treatment to<BR>prevent her from rejecting future pregnancies.&nbsp; And that means the<BR>treatment has to be developed.<BR><BR>I'm sure the original Vilani-Solomani intermarriages had lots of<BR>problems-- there were probably ALL SORTS of things in Solomani blood that<BR>Vilani women reacted to, and possibly the other way round as well, but<BR>being as how the Vilani are more homogeneous, there were fewer of them.<BR><BR>Of course the use of artificial wombs is probably quite common on any<BR>world with the requisite TL; as someone who has experienced near-death in<BR>childbirth and has never successfully produced a living child, I don't at<BR>all understand the romantic fascination with which others of my gender<BR>invest the notion of "natural childbirth", and would hope so anyway.<BR><BR>Kiri<BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:40:37 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Another munchkin magnet from SMEG/OFF<BR><BR>For imediate release<BR><BR>The Orcrist Firearms Foundry (a division of the Spinward Marches<BR>Entertainment Group) are pleased to announce the latest in their<BR>series of small arms for the discriminating user:<BR><BR>The "ArchDuke" 20mm Revolver.<BR><BR>Ammo: length=35mm Weight=38g Price=Cr1.52<BR>Barrel: Length=10cm weight=.2kg Price=Cr40*<BR>4 rnd Revolver cylinder: Length=20cm Weight=2.448kg Price=Cr367.20*<BR>Pistol grip: Length=0cm Weight=.4kg* Price=Cr5*<BR>Totals: Length=30cm Weight(empty)=3.048kg (loaded)=3.2kg<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Price=Cr412.20*<BR><BR>E=2448joules<BR>Damage Ball/DS=3 HE/HEAP=8<BR>Penetration Ball=2-nil DS=1-2-nil<BR>ROF=DAR<BR>Short Range Ball=20m DS=24m HE/HEAP=15m<BR>Due to the low power cartridge the weapon counts as sound suppressed<BR>(but not silenced)<BR>Bulk=2<BR>Recoil=3<BR><BR>Lets face it. Nothing says authority quite like a big freaking gun and we<BR>at the SMEG/OFF development team have created the gun that screams,<BR>"I'm in charge here," louder than most. But intimidation isn't the only<BR>feature of this weapon. This side arm is painstakingly crafted out of the<BR>finest materials and is decorated by gold and silver inlay on the barrel and<BR>cylinder of the weapon. Rounding out the decorative appointments is the<BR>grip hand carved from daghadasi ivory imported from the far end of the<BR>Imperium at great expense. This weapon is sure to cause pistol envey<BR>in even the most powerfull of Imperial nobles. Order yours today as the<BR>demand for this revolver (each one hand crafted with decoration made<BR>to specific order by our renowned artisans) is sure to exceed supply.<BR><BR>Final Cost Cr9,999.95*<BR><BR>SMEG/OFF Marketing Division.<BR><BR>*The cost has been artificially inflated to account for the special<BR>detailing<BR>and because I felt like it. I gave the ivory pistol grip double the weight<BR>of a<BR>wooden grip as a WAG for the density. The daghadasi is from Adventure 9<BR>Nomads of the World-Ocean. I'm not sure if they are an actual source<BR>for ivory or something similar but what the hey it's a nice evil sort of<BR>way to get it.<BR><BR>I've been wanting to do a weapon like this since I came across the<BR>blurb on the revolver in the T4 book. If revolvers are a status symbol<BR>there has to be a market for a big flashy gun for the petty nobles trying<BR>to up their apparent social class. Or at least intimidate the even pettier<BR>nobles into some semblance of respect. This is the weapon of the neuvo<BR>noblesse.<BR><BR>I suspect that this design probably inherits the same major problem as<BR>it's forbear the sniper cannon, to whit, the range is probably to high in<BR>relation to real world data. Oh well.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:34:59 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Now I'm primarily a user and my opinion is that most of my problems<BR>result<BR>&gt;&gt; from the inability of "professional" programmers to do what's really<BR>&gt;&gt; important to rolling out usable software. That's DOCUMENTATION!<BR>&gt;&gt; Documentation, help files, user guides, user oriented (as opposed to<BR>&gt;&gt; programmer oriented) interfaces, documented code, and use of unsuitable<BR>&gt;&gt; tools (you know, like using c to make a GUI.)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Programmers are not supposed to do that work, that's what document<BR>&gt;specialists are for.<BR>&gt;<BR>Unfortunately when you work at a national lab there are no document<BR>specialists.<BR><BR>&gt;Also, user-oriented interfaces do exist, and the science of usability is<BR>&gt;something that is heavily emphasised by professional development<BR>&gt;organizations. However, again, it is not the programmer's responsibility to<BR>&gt;do this, it is up to the usability experts and the testing organization to<BR>&gt;drive this.<BR>&gt;<BR>Ditto, as above no implementation specialists.<BR><BR>&gt;Basically, any organization that is not employing documentation<BR>&gt;professionals and usability experts is not a professional organization.<BR>&gt;<BR>Unfortunately you're correct, as I've tried to tell management more than<BR>once. Sorry if I've come on rather strong, but this is a big problem for me<BR>professional. Our programmers tend to be people strait out of school. They<BR>are given a project to implement, most often some kind of control system<BR>tool, which requires everything from low level to high level programming.<BR>They are supposedly responsible for the entire project, but when they<BR>finish, or move on, what we usually get is a tool that is barely usable, has<BR>no documentation, a clunky interface, and is made up of spaghetti code.<BR><BR>I swear, we have one tool that was written by a guy who went out the door as<BR>soon at it was completed. It was written in C++, awk, Perl and tcl/tk. And<BR>since it kinda works there are no plans to commit the resources to write<BR>something that really works.<BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:46:37 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 15:06, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Yes, but from what I understand (how it was explained to my wife and<BR>&gt; &gt; I) is that the Rh factor is only important for the *second* and<BR>&gt; &gt; subequent children (I stand ready to be corrected). That's a little<BR>&gt; &gt; different from being totally unable to interbreed without medical<BR>&gt; &gt; assistance.<BR><BR>&gt; Second and subsequent PREGNANCIES, not second and subsequent CHILDREN.<BR><BR>&gt; (Big difference.)<BR><BR>If the two populations can have one pregnancy (and child), then they *can* <BR>obviously interbreed without medical assistance (at least once). Hmm, this <BR>raises an interesting point. If the two populations have a blood protien that <BR>causes the *first* pregnancy to abort, are they then seperate species?<BR><BR>&gt; If she's had an abortion or miscarriage in the past and been sensitized to<BR>&gt; whatever factor it is, she'll still miscarry.&nbsp;&nbsp; Basically, you need medical<BR>&gt; assistance to interbreed-- she's got to have the treatment to prevent her from<BR>&gt; rejecting future pregnancies.&nbsp; And that means the treatment has to be<BR>&gt; developed.<BR><BR>I thought that there was also a real risk to the mother on the third and <BR>subsequent pregnancy?<BR><BR>&gt; I'm sure the original Vilani-Solomani intermarriages had lots of<BR>&gt; problems-- there were probably ALL SORTS of things in Solomani blood that<BR>&gt; Vilani women reacted to, and possibly the other way round as well, but being<BR>&gt; as how the Vilani are more homogeneous, there were fewer of them.<BR><BR>Very definitely. Without medical assistance, such pregnancies would be <BR>*very* risky. Another, interesting point, as the Solomani &amp; Vilani <BR>intermingled, just what effect would the spread of different blood proteins <BR>have?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:45:15 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: New law in Australia<BR><BR>David does that mean we are no longer allowed to clip parts of your messages<BR>in our replies to your comments because that would mean that we have changed<BR>the original form of the text?<BR><BR>I agree it is a silly law, but on a par with some of the other Internet<BR>related law some countries have been passing in the last year.<BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3774<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, March 7 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3775<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Cloning robots...<BR>Traveller Can Prevent Alzheimer's<BR>Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Re : Question on cloning... (longish)<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Re: Human/Neanderthal interbreeding<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Re: Question on cloning...<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>Re: Question on cloning...<BR>KB3 On the NET!<BR>Re: Question on cloning...<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:56:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On 6 Mar 2001, at 15:06, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Yes, but from what I understand (how it was explained to my wife and<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I) is that the Rh factor is only important for the *second* and<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; subequent children (I stand ready to be corrected). That's a little<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; different from being totally unable to interbreed without medical<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; assistance.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Second and subsequent PREGNANCIES, not second and subsequent CHILDREN.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; (Big difference.)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; If the two populations can have one pregnancy (and child), then they *can* <BR>&gt; obviously interbreed without medical assistance (at least once). Hmm, this <BR>&gt; raises an interesting point. If the two populations have a blood protien that <BR>&gt; causes the *first* pregnancy to abort, are they then seperate species?<BR><BR>I don't know.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; If she's had an abortion or miscarriage in the past and been sensitized to<BR>&gt; &gt; whatever factor it is, she'll still miscarry.&nbsp;&nbsp; Basically, you need medical<BR>&gt; &gt; assistance to interbreed-- she's got to have the treatment to prevent her from<BR>&gt; &gt; rejecting future pregnancies.&nbsp; And that means the treatment has to be<BR>&gt; &gt; developed.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I thought that there was also a real risk to the mother on the third and <BR>&gt; subsequent pregnancy?<BR><BR>I am not sure but having repeated miscarriages in and of itself is a<BR>medical risk (This much I know for sure).<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; I'm sure the original Vilani-Solomani intermarriages had lots of<BR>&gt; &gt; problems-- there were probably ALL SORTS of things in Solomani blood that<BR>&gt; &gt; Vilani women reacted to, and possibly the other way round as well, but being<BR>&gt; &gt; as how the Vilani are more homogeneous, there were fewer of them.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Very definitely. Without medical assistance, such pregnancies would be <BR>&gt; *very* risky. Another, interesting point, as the Solomani &amp; Vilani <BR>&gt; intermingled, just what effect would the spread of different blood proteins <BR>&gt; have?<BR><BR>Interesting question.&nbsp; Not sure.&nbsp; I would bet that it cut the fad for<BR>minimal medical involvement in pregnancy dead though.<BR><BR>Kiri<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 19:09:42 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Cloning robots...<BR><BR>John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com puts into the Ether:<BR>&gt;A more moral (if far more expensive) option is a pseudobio robot. It<BR>&gt;won't be cheap, but you could make a robot that can pass as<BR>&gt;human.&nbsp; It's TL 15, but you could likely even grow the person's skin<BR>&gt;around it, which combined with careful shielding will allow it to pass<BR>&gt;nearly anything except a medical test.&nbsp; Of course, doing this will<BR>&gt;likely cost at minimum 500,000 Credits, more if you want it to be<BR>&gt;able to hold a simple human-seeming conversation.&nbsp; Probably more<BR>&gt;like 2 MCr.<BR><BR>Hmmm...I smell an adventure hook here.&nbsp; Weathy, and very old patron has <BR>pushed anti-aging drug therapy as far as it will go, and wants one of these <BR>for a new body.<BR><BR><BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:52:05 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Traveller Can Prevent Alzheimer's<BR><BR>Brain Teasers May Delay Alzheimer's<BR>Study finds intellectual hobbies in adult life have protective effect<BR>by Paul Recer<BR>Associated Press<BR><BR>I read the article in paper media format, and do not have an electronic<BR>address to which to refer you.&nbsp; It appears in today's San Francisco<BR>Chronicle, at A9 column 1.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Disclaimer:&nbsp; The article does not actually mention Traveller or<BR>role-playing games, but it does say, "A survey of people in their 70s<BR>showed that those who regularly participated in hobbies that were<BR>intellectually challenging during their younger adult years tended to be<BR>protected from Alzheimer's disease."&nbsp; Among the intellectually challenging<BR>hobbies are listed "chess or other board games."&nbsp; <BR><BR>I, for one, am going to be sure to attend the monthly San Jose Traveller<BR>board game group for as long as possible.&nbsp; It's for my own good.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:30:26 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR>&gt;&gt; Hello Robert,<BR>&gt;&gt; Forward's descriptions of the antimatter containment system by<BR>&gt;&gt; inference in his story, indicate that the antimatter bunkers do not<BR>&gt;&gt; weight some 25 tons per unit as GURPS VEHICLES has it.&nbsp; GURPS<BR>&gt;&gt; VEHICLES makes the storage bunkers weigh more per cubic foot than<BR>&gt;&gt; hydrogen fusion containment bottles!<BR><BR>From the _story_ : 3mg AM to 1400g prop/sec burn<BR>800Mg prop carried, so 1.7 kg enclosed in a space 'about as big as a kitchen<BR>refrigerator'.<BR><BR>I agree that this is ridiculous.<BR><BR>From the preceding essay ('Antimatter') in 'Indistinguishable From Magic':-<BR>&gt; One of these Penning traps could easily hold up to a trillion<BR>&gt; antiprotons. The traps are very small in size... They do require<BR>&gt; large thermos-like containers full of liquid helium to keep them<BR>&gt; cold, so they are more pickup-truck portable than hand portable.)<BR>This is the modern system you're referring to, Anthony.<BR><BR>Hal wrote :-<BR>&gt; Is Forward a trained scientist who knows more than Pulver?&nbsp; That I<BR>&gt; can't answer...<BR>?!<BR>'Indistinguishable From Magic' has (peer-reviewed) journal references<BR>after each of the 'reviews', as do some of his other books, IIRC.<BR>Optionally, check the list of publications at the Tethers International<BR>website (I think it's www.whiteby.com - but hit a search engine to check).<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote :-<BR>&gt; Forward almost certainly does know more.&nbsp; However, he makes up for it<BR>&gt; by being wildly optimistic.<BR>With regard to physics and electrical engineering, I'd remove 'almost' from<BR>the first sentence, on the basis of qualifications, publication record,<BR>patents, etc...<BR><BR>Forward's fiction is pretty average, though.<BR><BR>He is certainly wildly optimistic in his fiction. The journal articles he's<BR>submitted seem to be relatively sober and thoughtful, given the subjects<BR>under discussion.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:30:32 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Question on cloning... (longish)<BR><BR>William Lane wrote :-<BR>&gt; however Is it or will it be possable in the future to cloane people<BR>&gt; in say a tank of vat so that they are cloned fully grown?<BR><BR>In Reality(TM), the technical difficulties in getting cell cultures to<BR>reliably survive are hurdle enough, let alone producing viable fertilised<BR>eggs for the cloning work.<BR><BR>Artificial wombs and growth quickening are a long way off. They may not be<BR>possible at all (nanotech assembly methods may be able to do both of them,<BR>anyway).<BR><BR>However, in Traveller, growth quickening is available at typical Imperial<BR>tech levels (MT Ref's Companion p.28, from TTL 10). This may be nanotech<BR>based, as there's no detailed description given.<BR><BR>&gt; if so the next question is how long would it take to train a clone to<BR>&gt; take an active part in society in the furture even if that is just a<BR>&gt; menial type job? I mean would they have developed some<BR>&gt; sort of "fast programming" method that will teach the clone quickly.<BR>Realistically, years, and probably no. Why?<BR><BR>The molecular basis of learning, short-term memory and neural plasticity has<BR>been painfully teased out over the last 30 years. What has been learned is<BR>just the tip of the iceberg.<BR><BR>There are 10^11 neurons in the human central nervous system. There's an<BR>average of 1000 connections (synapses) from each neuron.<BR>The system is complex.<BR><BR>Much more needs to be known about the fine structure of the brain before<BR>such a task can be performed.<BR>How do we see what the connections are like in the brain we want to<BR>duplicate? Is the reading process destructive or not?<BR>What pattern of connections, and to which areas, mean 'skill x' or<BR>'behaviour y'?<BR><BR>I do not think that it will be possible to rapidly (less than several years)<BR>'program' a nervous system, short of building it in the desired<BR>configuration (more nanomagic beyond average TTLs, _unless_ you consider<BR>growth quickening to be nanotech based).<BR><BR>For the purposes of the game, 2-6 months to grow and teach a clone (nanotech<BR>quickened growth and custom built brain). This doesn't include time taken to<BR>read the brain of the original.<BR><BR>&gt; The reason for asking is that the charicters are thinking about<BR>&gt; rescuing a person from their captors and they idea was if they could<BR>&gt; get a clone fast enough they could sneak in and switch them.<BR>Is the hostage conscious or not?<BR>If not, the clone doesn't need to have a mind. This might save a little<BR>time, but could lead to complications.<BR><BR>If the hostage is conscious, then the clone's brain pattern has to be very<BR>accurate. Given that it is possible to clone people, you can assess the<BR>accuracy of duplication by functional imaging.<BR>Consider it an advanced form of identity verification ('biometrics').<BR><BR>In other words, magnetic resonance or PET/SPECT scanning of the brain during<BR>a standardised activity (reading a list of numbers or words off a screen,<BR>for example).<BR><BR>A poor copy will have slight differences in the timing and distribution of<BR>blood flow to the brain, compared to the original.<BR><BR>Sorry about the length of the post.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:54:42 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>Kiri Morgan wrote :-<BR>&gt; Just matching the A/B/O blood group isn't nearly safe enough for<BR>&gt; transfusion.<BR>Yes, but matching ABO and Rh is sufficient to get 99% safety.<BR>The 1% reaction rate is going to consist mainly of fevers from white cell<BR>and platelet aggregates, etc. Full-blown haemolytic reactions will be rare,<BR>thankfully.<BR><BR>Matching for the other antigen systems (e.g. P, MNS, the dozens of named<BR>antigens) gains you at best a few tenths of a percent.<BR><BR>Andrew M-V. wrote :-<BR>&gt; Hmm, this raises an interesting point. If the two populations have a<BR>&gt; blood protien that causes the *first* pregnancy to abort, are they<BR>&gt; then seperate species?<BR>Yes, using the conventional definition of a species.<BR><BR>&gt; I thought that there was also a real risk to the mother on the third<BR>&gt; and subsequent pregnancy?<BR>No ; haemolytic disease of the newborn is a form of hypersensitivity<BR>syndrome (Gell and Coombs type 2, to be precise).<BR><BR>The idea of 'immunisation' is to prevent foetal cells from sensitising the<BR>maternal immune system, so anti-D globulin is given to mum at the time of<BR>the first pregnancy. This effectively prevents foetal blood cells from<BR>entering the maternal circulation and staying there long enough to prime the<BR>defenses.<BR><BR>There is a theoretical risk with subsequent pregnancies, but it is very<BR>small. It is not standard obstetric practice to repeat the anti-D treatment.<BR><BR>&gt; Another, interesting point, as the Solomani &amp; Vilani<BR>&gt; intermingled, just what effect would the spread of different blood<BR>&gt; proteins have?<BR>From a clinical standpoint, not a lot. It makes haemolytic disease a little<BR>more likely. Blood and tissues are somewhat more difficult to cross-match.<BR>Solomani medical tech over the period should cope easily.<BR><BR>Hmm...<BR>Thinking about other tissue transplantation, there could be problems with<BR>MHC (Major Histocompatibility Complex) antigens. Certain combinations are<BR>associated with a variety of autoimmune diseases. There may be 'outbreaks'<BR>of arthritis, lupus, etc.<BR>But again, Solomani medical tech should deliver (?TTL10-12?!) over this<BR>period.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:05:04 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>Robert O'Connor writes:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;From the _story_ : 3mg AM to 1400g prop/sec burn<BR>&gt; 800Mg prop carried, so 1.7 kg enclosed in a space 'about as big as a<BR>&gt; kitchen refrigerator'.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I agree that this is ridiculous.<BR><BR>GTL-9 antimatter storage is 500 lb/gram, or 227 grams/mg (681 g/3 mg).&nbsp; That's<BR>about twice as good as Forward's numbers.&nbsp; As written, it doesn't seem<BR>obvious what the minimum size of a storage container is, it seems that you<BR>could have .01 lb antimatter storage units holding 20 micrograms of antimatter<BR>with a nominal yield of 1 ton, and that's light enough you could probably <BR>embed it into a 20mm round and have mass left over for padding.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:34:39 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Human/Neanderthal interbreeding<BR><BR>&gt; So, is opinion still strongly divided about modern <BR>&gt;&nbsp; human/neanderthal interbreeding, or have some of the recent <BR>&gt;&nbsp; intermediate skeletons mostly settled that issue?<BR><BR>Last time I consulted John Harshman, PhD, he told me it was still a matter of <BR>some dispute.<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:04:50 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; That depends on what you mean by variation.&nbsp; A very large<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; can of several species of worms.&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>Oh. Well, I guess I mean a fairly lay definition. By that, are there are<BR>clear and obvious differences that can be appreciated in the same way as may<BR>seperate modern humans and neanderthals. My point, and this ties into the<BR>taxonomic accuracy bit, that even though we and neanderthal are only<BR>subspecies to each other, we seem to display significant differences. If the<BR>fruitflies species do not vary to the same degree, then claiming a more<BR>significant rate of change for the fruitflies based solely on the technical<BR>classification of those new species, fails to measure the actual changes.<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Why should there be more physical change?&nbsp; You have<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; argued that it is possible that there could be significant<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; physical changes, but have given no reasons to expect<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; physical changes greater than those observed on Terra.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Nor it is necessarily true (AFAIK) that Zhodanis are no<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; more different from Vilani than eskimos are from<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; bushmen.<BR><BR>I would expect more differences because the species the ancients took sprout<BR>two major decendant lines here on earth. Now, while I know that does not<BR>prove nor even imply that the transplanted populations should drift, at the<BR>same time, given the variety of conditions, as well as the significant time<BR>allowances, that some form of greater change should have been observed.<BR>Thus, I believe that humaniti should display more variation then among<BR>modern terran races for the following reasons.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 1) 300,000 years is much more time then current racial populations have<BR>been developing. (After all, 300,000 there were no modern people even.)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 2) The range of enviornmental conditions (ecology, gravity, temperature,<BR>and so on) of the forty something transplanted people should be AT LEAST as<BR>varied as any climate conditions on earth. (Not necessary that each<BR>population was exposed to varied enviornments like here on earth, but that<BR>the forty something situations should all display significant differences<BR>between each other.) Neanderthals had significant adaptations to their<BR>enviornment, so why not the rest of transplanted humaniti?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 3) The starting point, archaic Homo sapiens, does infact give rise to at<BR>least two significantly different subspecies. This is only on earth, and<BR>within the 300,000 year range. It would seem reasonable to assert that some<BR>transplanted population could take another route.<BR><BR>Jeff Yin<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:37:30 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>&gt;How dense does forward think antimatter storage can be?&nbsp; Space gives a ratio<BR>&gt;of 250,000:1 at TL 9, which is not particularly bad and certainly better than<BR>&gt;any modern system.<BR><BR>Hello Anthony,<BR>&nbsp; Forward doesn't assume that an antimatter containment system weighs more<BR>than what David Pulver hypothesized, he assumes it will be *less* than what<BR>David suggests.<BR><BR>Excerpted from INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC (Turn left at the Moon):<BR><BR>The antimatter rocket engine is not much bigger than some of the chemical<BR>rocket engines used on the big boosters back in the 1990's," said the<BR>scotty.&nbsp; "It's three meters in diameter inside the annihilation chamber,<BR>while the bell of the nozzle expands out to ten meters to get the maximum<BR>thrust out of the hot exhaust gases.&nbsp; In each second of operation, the<BR>engine uses 3 milligrams of antimatter to heat fourteen hundred grams of<BR>propellant.&nbsp; The power level is five hundred gigawatts, about fifteen times<BR>the power level of the early Saturn Five moon rockets.<BR>&nbsp; The shuttlecraft moved on to the other side of the thick metal disk about<BR>3 meters in diameter.&nbsp; It was fifteen centimeters thick at the center and<BR>tapered down to a few centimeters thick at the rim.&nbsp; Right in back of the<BR>metal disk was a large rectangle about as big as a kitchen refrigerator.<BR>&nbsp; "The big metal Disk is the radiation shield, while the rectangular box on<BR>the other side is the antimatter storage container"<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; Forward goes on to explain the mechanics of antimatter reaction with<BR>matter and so on.&nbsp; I don't mind saying that I fully understand that this is<BR>a "story" and that it is likely Forward mangled science a bit in order to<BR>write a story.&nbsp; It is also entirely plausible that he didn't do a lot of<BR>research when he wrote what he wrote.&nbsp; However, he does go on to say in<BR>other parts of his book, that if one were to create a power generation<BR>system using solar panels in space (300 km x 30 km to produce 10 terawatts<BR>of power).&nbsp; His estimate of our "efficiency" in antimatter production would<BR>change from 1 in 60 million to 1 in 10,000 - so I was wrong about his claim<BR>on efficiency change if the antimatter generators were built as an ongoing<BR>commercial concern instead of a precision scientific concern.&nbsp; His estimate<BR>too of how much it would cost per milligram is 10 million dollars per.<BR>According to him, at 10 million per milligram, it would still be cost<BR>effective as a fuel.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Me?&nbsp; I don't know enough about physics one way or another to comment on<BR>Forward's "flights of fantasy" or wild optimism &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; What I will say<BR>however, is that it seems odd that in GURPS VEHICLES, antimatter requires<BR>containment systems that are far heavier than fusion power plants (on a<BR>weight per cubic volume basis).&nbsp; At the very least, I'd have expected that<BR>antimatter containment systems would be at worst, as heavy as fusion<BR>plants, not heavier!<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:49:16 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Question on cloning...<BR><BR>Hello Bill,<BR>&nbsp; I've always enjoyed thinking about Cloning and all that goes with it...<BR><BR>1) how does one get a person's clone to be exactly the same height/weight<BR>as the donor's body <BR><BR>2) cancer is the process where a clump of cells grow at a wildly inflated<BR>rate.&nbsp; The implications of forced growth clones is that either we've<BR>conquered cancer, or that we've managed to find the start growth/stop<BR>growth mechanisms.<BR><BR>3) is it ethical to grow a clone and deny him/her it's potential to be a<BR>fully matured and self-sustaining individual of society?&nbsp; And if it is<BR>*not* ethical to grow a clone for spare parts, is it ethical to genetically<BR>manipulate genetic material such that it can never have higher inteligence<BR>functions?&nbsp; It would be fully interesting to see what happens if you modify<BR>a clone body so that it can't start off with a brain, and then use it for<BR>reproductive purposes (Brain transplants anyone?).<BR><BR>4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to divide<BR>abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that they develop<BR>separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a clone of an<BR>individual does not have a soul?&nbsp; <BR><BR>5) in instances where genetic mapping has been done on humankind, and some<BR>2,000 years plus has passed since this was first achieved, would not<BR>mankind know which genes trigger what conditions within the human body?<BR>Would not too, mankind understand what produces psionic ability?&nbsp; And<BR>finally, in a universe where Imperial Nobles have access to cutting edge<BR>technology, would not those individuals seek to use genetic science to<BR>improve their bloodlines?<BR><BR>&nbsp; In case anyone wonders &lt;grin&gt;, yes, I LOVE GURPS BIOTECH...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:59:39 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>&gt;Yes, but from what I understand (how it was explained to my wife and I) is <BR>&gt;that the Rh factor is only important for the *second* and subequent <BR>&gt;children (I stand ready to be corrected). That's a little different from<BR>being <BR>&gt;totally unable to interbreed without medical assistance.<BR><BR>In my family of five kids...&nbsp; Father was Rh Positive, Mother was Rh<BR>Negative (the only way it matters as I understand it, Rh Positive being<BR>dominant)<BR><BR>Firstborn - no problem<BR>Secondborn - no problem<BR>Thirdborn - minor problems <BR>Fourthborn - major problems (some blood transfusion required)<BR>Fifthborn - total blood transfusion required<BR><BR>Guess which one I was in the list &lt;grin&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:57:06 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>on 6/3/01 5:08 pm, Jesse Degraff at jedegraf@cisco.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator<BR>&gt;&gt; will suffice.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Don't you mean det-cord loop? :)&nbsp; I didn't think cordite came in cord form.<BR>&gt; Mark?<BR><BR>It came in strands like twine, ISTR. My father had a supply in the far East<BR>which he used to demolish old bridges. You could certainly make a loop<BR>because that's what my father once threw into a river for a little bit of<BR>extreme fishing. Once the locals had scooped up a few hundred stunned fish<BR>they held a village feast.<BR><BR>&gt; Yea Gods!&nbsp; Glad I never had to mess with that crap...<BR><BR>Dynix was bile. The SVR4 Dynix/ptx that replaced it was such an improvement<BR>that nobody seemed to notice that it was one of the most bug-ridden<BR>implementations of SVR4 ever released. I fully expect all the bad bits of<BR>SCO SVR5, AIX and Dynix to be distilled together to produce the future IBM<BR>'nix.<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:07:17 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>on 6/3/01 5:45 pm, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Yeah, det-cord or prima-cord.&nbsp; Cordite is a propellant made from<BR>&gt; nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine and petroleum jelly, usually extruded into<BR>&gt; spaghetti like strands, and used primarily by British and Empire military in<BR>&gt; smallarms and some artillery.<BR><BR>And demolitions work, and of course it wasn't just the military that used<BR>it, the British civil services overseas used it in abundance because (i) it<BR>was invented by a Scot and produced in Britain (ii) it travelled better than<BR>most other blasting powders. It looks like brown twine and it can be rolled<BR>up tightly to make a pretty good amateur rocket propellant. I'm guessing it<BR>would probably be fairly uncommon outside military use today.<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:03:04 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Question on cloning...<BR><BR>on 7/3/01 1:49 am, hal@buffnet.net at hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; 1) how does one get a person's clone to be exactly the same height/weight<BR>&gt; as the donor's body<BR><BR>One doesn't. A clone is another separate organism grown using the same DNA.<BR>For some things, exact is not an option. Why would my clone have the same<BR>environmental inputs as me? The half inch I lose through carrying weights<BR>poorly at a young age may not happen.<BR><BR>&gt; 2) cancer is the process where a clump of cells grow at a wildly inflated<BR>&gt; rate.&nbsp; The implications of forced growth clones is that either we've<BR>&gt; conquered cancer, or that we've managed to find the start growth/stop<BR>&gt; growth mechanisms.<BR><BR>Most likely both, I'd reckon.<BR><BR>&gt; 3) is it ethical to grow a clone and deny him/her it's potential to be a<BR>&gt; fully matured and self-sustaining individual of society?&nbsp; And if it is<BR>&gt; *not* ethical to grow a clone for spare parts, is it ethical to genetically<BR>&gt; manipulate genetic material such that it can never have higher inteligence<BR>&gt; functions?&nbsp; It would be fully interesting to see what happens if you modify<BR>&gt; a clone body so that it can't start off with a brain, and then use it for<BR>&gt; reproductive purposes (Brain transplants anyone?).<BR><BR>It certainly isn't ethical in my book. It's perhaps ethical to grow a<BR>vegetative clone with minimal cerebral functions, but you would have to<BR>suppose that there would be all sorts of complications resulting from that<BR>which would hinder the retrofit of a higher-order cortex. I'd reckon that no<BR>brain at all would be impossible.<BR><BR>&gt; 4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to divide<BR>&gt; abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that they develop<BR>&gt; separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a clone of an<BR>&gt; individual does not have a soul?<BR><BR>Where did that come from? As much as any of us has a soul, a clone has too.<BR>We're talking about another quite distinct animal here. The only difference<BR>is that normal, natural genetic selection has not taken place. Somebody has<BR>done a bit of cutting and pasting to get a genetic match with the donor. In<BR>every other respect, this is a distinct life.<BR><BR>&gt; 5) in instances where genetic mapping has been done on humankind, and some<BR>&gt; 2,000 years plus has passed since this was first achieved, would not<BR>&gt; mankind know which genes trigger what conditions within the human body?<BR><BR>Absolutely. This is the ultimate priority of human genome research.<BR><BR>&gt; Would not too, mankind understand what produces psionic ability?&nbsp; And<BR>&gt; finally, in a universe where Imperial Nobles have access to cutting edge<BR>&gt; technology, would not those individuals seek to use genetic science to<BR>&gt; improve their bloodlines?<BR><BR>You'd have to deal with the psionics thing at an individual referee level.<BR>There are no good guidelines in my opinion. In my mind, psionics are a<BR>fantasy construct that are awkward to deal with in all situations. I'd say<BR>yes, we'd understand psionics at a genetic level, psi powers are not magic<BR>but quite explainable, and that the genetic codes are pandemic. Were they<BR>not universally present but dormant, psionic suppression by the Imperium<BR>would have been enforced by aborting those foetuses that demonstrate the<BR>gene. However, I know of other GMs for whom this is probably not a good<BR>solution. In a Universe where psionic genes are not shared by all, the<BR>Imperium would have to have some higher moral code while they gave the<BR>psionic-skilled a kicking.<BR><BR>And finally, sure, of course they would. ;)<BR><BR>&gt; In case anyone wonders &lt;grin&gt;, yes, I LOVE GURPS BIOTECH...<BR><BR>I don't have it. It's on my (long) wish-list... after the Traveller books<BR>I've yet to get, Ultratech and Vehicles.<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:45:25 -0600<BR>From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: KB3 On the NET!<BR><BR>- --------------E67AC16F65068A9ECAFB2B34<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR>Just to give everyone an update...<BR><BR>David is using KB3 for his game, and he's doing a fine job of writing a<BR>clear, concise version of the KB3 rules, posting this stuff on his web<BR>site.<BR><BR>He doesn't quite have it all up yet, but he will have soon.&nbsp; He just<BR>sent me a preview of the write up of the rules.&nbsp; He did a very good job,<BR>and it will help you weed out all the mish-mash of stuff that's come<BR>down over the list about KB3 over the last few months.<BR><BR>If you're at all interested in KB3, you can check it out on his web site<BR>at:<BR><BR>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw<BR><BR>Kenneth.<BR><BR>- --------------E67AC16F65068A9ECAFB2B34<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR>&lt;!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"&gt;<BR><BR>Just to give everyone an update...<BR>
<P>David is using KB3 for his game, and he's doing a fine job of writing<BR>a clear, concise version of the KB3 rules, posting this stuff on his web<BR>site.<BR>
<P>He doesn't quite have it all up yet, but he will have soon.&amp;nbsp; He<BR>just sent me a preview of the write up of the rules.&amp;nbsp; He did a very<BR>good job, and it will help you weed out all the mish-mash of stuff that's<BR>come down over the list about KB3 over the last few months.<BR>
<P>If you're at all interested in KB3, you can check it out on his web<BR>site at:<BR>
<P><U><A href="http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw" title=http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw</A></U><BR>
<P>Kenneth.<BR><BR>- --------------E67AC16F65068A9ECAFB2B34--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:53:50 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Question on cloning...<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; 4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to divide<BR>&gt;&gt; abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that they develop<BR>&gt;&gt; separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a clone of an<BR>&gt;&gt; individual does not have a soul?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Where did that come from? As much as any of us has a soul, a clone has too.<BR>&gt;We're talking about another quite distinct animal here. The only difference<BR>&gt;is that normal, natural genetic selection has not taken place. Somebody has<BR>&gt;done a bit of cutting and pasting to get a genetic match with the donor. In<BR>&gt;every other respect, this is a distinct life.<BR><BR>Hello Gordon,<BR>&nbsp; In answer to "where did that come from?" - my wife and I took a car<BR>journey that lasted several hours, and thus, we enjoyed a rousing<BR>discussion on the various aspects of cloning, mind taping, spinal/brain<BR>transplants, etc.&nbsp; Many of the things we discussed were not just the<BR>technical aspects, but also the likely responses to this "ungodly science"<BR>where man meddles in an area of Divine perogatives.&nbsp; You have merely to<BR>look about you in today's news casts to see that mankind has not totally<BR>emerged from the barbarism of religious guided stupidity.&nbsp; I do not doubt,<BR>that the first human ever created via cloning will face such<BR>discrimination.&nbsp; As I see it, your responses were mainly rational and well<BR>thought out.&nbsp; The only problem I have with your matter of fact presentation<BR>of your viewpoints - the emotionally guided individual will not be swayed<BR>by logic, but by emotions.&nbsp; <BR><BR>&nbsp; If you can, get your hands on GURPS BIOTECH and soon.&nbsp; There are a lot of<BR>things in there worth considering for a science fiction campaign. <BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3775<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-za02.mx.aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.98]) by air-za05.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:52:45 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:52:02 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id AAA73296;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:49:30 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:49:02 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id AAA73239<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:49:02 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:49:02 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103070549.AAA73239@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3775<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3776</B></TD></TR>
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<TD>3/7/01 4:25:58 AM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, March 7 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3776<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>Scramjet<BR>Re: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)<BR>Re: New law in Australia<BR>Re:&nbsp; Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>Re: New law in Australia<BR>Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Re: Question on cloning...<BR>Re: Question on cloning...<BR>Crusades of the Future<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: Astrogation design<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>Introduction<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>Ginger = Stirling Engine?<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Re: Cordite loops<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:36:19 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>Rob wrote :<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Now all we need is a way to cross this with the "Hot Fusion in a<BR>&gt; can" thread...<BR><BR>Well, "Hot fusion in a can" sounds like a good slogan for a drink of some<BR>sort !<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:43:58 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; GTL-9 antimatter storage is 500 lb/gram, or 227 grams/mg (681 g/3<BR>&gt; mg).&nbsp; That's about twice as good as Forward's numbers.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Only if a 'kitchen refrigerator' weighs over 400 tonnes (for a<BR>density of more than 50 times that of lead).&nbsp; Are you sure you aren't<BR>confusing grams with kilograms, or with pounds?<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:53:25 +1100<BR>From: Rob &lt;rhoughto@one.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Rob wrote :<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Now all we need is a way to cross this with the "Hot Fusion in a<BR>&gt; &gt; can" thread...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Well, "Hot fusion in a can" sounds like a good slogan for a drink of some<BR>&gt; sort !<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Probably some sort of self heating coffee/alcohol drink, "turn can over, rip<BR>off tab, turn can upright, wait and remove lid...caution contents are hot..."<BR><BR>"Cold fusion in a can would be the same, but an iced coffee version..."<BR><BR>DS...can we have this in our game?<BR><BR>Rob<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:56:18 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>My attempt at the nose art for the Mahina Tiare is done, flowers and all. It <BR>is posted at:<BR>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/NoseArt.htm<BR><BR>Bill, thanks again for the interesting project.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:34:28 -0800<BR>From: "Antony Farrell" &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Scramjet<BR><BR>Thought the list may be interested in an article from the University of<BR>Queensland regarding testing of a scramjet.<BR><BR>You can find it at<BR>http://www.uq.edu.au/research/research-report/research2000-blast.htm<BR><BR>Antony<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:42:30 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;And if they did, why experiment with only archaic Homo sapiens? <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 1) It was the most adaptable of the hominids the Ancients found, so they stuck<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; to them.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 2) As above, but samples of the other species were taken. However, none of them<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; survived into historic times.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 3) As 2), but some survived. They just haven't been found yet.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 4) As 3) and some of them have been found. Note that this last one would<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; defintiely be contrary to canon.<BR><BR>IIRC Canon says only that none of the _surviving_ races were<BR>not Homo Sapiens. Therefore: <BR><BR>5) All samples of other species that survived into historical times<BR>and were discovered were exterminated or died off after discovery<BR>but before the date (probably about 1105 Imperial or so) of<BR>the canon statements.<BR><BR>Should also be possible, shouldn't it?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:46:53 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New law in Australia<BR><BR>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;As you may, or may not be aware, it is now illegal in Australia to forward<BR>&gt; &gt;email without explicit permission of it's author. You face fines up to<BR>&gt; &gt;$60000 and 5 years in gaol.<BR>&gt; &gt;To protect other people, I recommend you use a stationay such as this one<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&lt;name&gt; &lt;phone&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Copyright  &lt;ccyy&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this<BR>&gt; &gt;document, but changing it is not allowed.<BR><BR>Does editing someone's email, as I did above constitute<BR>'changing it' under the applicable law? If so you may want<BR>to allow editing as well so that people don't have to include<BR>your entire message with theirs.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:01:44 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re:&nbsp; Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>"Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt; wrote<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: &gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;ps: Why should *I* care if Claudia Schiffer serves it?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Well, broken engagement or not, she could probably get you that hunk David <BR>&gt; Copperfield's home phone number....<BR><BR>While Kiri may have what David is looking for, she does not<BR>have it as, er, original equipment....<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:10:44 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 14:08, Jesse Degraff wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator<BR>&gt; &gt; will suffice.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Don't you mean det-cord loop? :)&nbsp; I didn't think cordite came in cord form.<BR>&gt; Mark?<BR><BR>I can't imagine cordite doing much good. Besides it comes in little rods like <BR>pencil leads (for .303 rounds) or larger rods (for artillery).<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:10:44 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 14:45, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Yeah, det-cord or prima-cord.&nbsp; Cordite is a propellant made from<BR>&gt; nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine and petroleum jelly, usually extruded into<BR>&gt; spaghetti like strands, and used primarily by British and Empire military in<BR>&gt; smallarms and some artillery.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The combustion byproducts have a characteristic 'tangy' odor, the "reek of<BR>&gt; cordite".<BR><BR>If you get some genuine Mark VII .303 rounds and disect them you'll find it's a <BR>nice browny-orage colour. Also if you examine the rods closely you'll see <BR>little holes than run down the length of the rods (which are about 1.5" long, <BR>IIRC). Considering that it was invented before WWI (again, IIRC) it's quite <BR>high-tech stuff.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:10:44 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:12, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On top of that, I lived in a 3.2 beer state in my teens.&nbsp; If you've never<BR>&gt; experienced the misery that is 3.2 beer, count yourself very, very lucky.<BR><BR>I presume that this means something along the lines of "no beer is allowed more <BR>than 3.2% alcohol"? If so I sympathise - even weak modern NZ beers make 4% <BR>(some arsehole did this survey that concluded that we like our beer at 4.5% and <BR>under, and some even bigger arsehole listened).<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:15:24 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New law in Australia<BR><BR>Peter Newman wrote:<BR>&gt; Does editing someone's email, as I did above constitute<BR>&gt; 'changing it' under the applicable law? If so you may want<BR>&gt; to allow editing as well so that people don't have to include<BR>&gt; your entire message with theirs.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Don't forget adding "&gt; " marks at the beginning of each line, not to<BR>mention the automatic word wrapping that some email readers do.&nbsp; Not<BR>that it would matter much -- "fair use" includes quoting excepts of a<BR>copyrighted work for comment, at least under what I believe of<BR>Australian law.&nbsp; <BR><BR><BR>- - Tim<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:24:24 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote :-<BR>&gt; As written, it doesn't seem obvious what the minimum size of a<BR>&gt; storage container is,...<BR>The limit would appear to be the support structures required to keep the<BR>antihydrogen cold. Turbulence experiments aside, how small can we make Dewar<BR>flasks containing liquid helium?<BR><BR>Are there any plausible alternative storage media?<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:23:53 -0800<BR>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>Subject: Re: Question on cloning...<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Hello Bill,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've always enjoyed thinking about Cloning and all that goes with<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; it...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 1) how does one get a person's clone to be exactly the same<BR>&gt; height/weight as the donor's body <BR><BR>I imagine this would be possible, especially with grav technology.&nbsp; <BR>If you are using growth quickening, you simply monitor the clone's <BR>development, adjust nutrients and gravity to compensate, and you'll <BR>likely get height and weight within the normal amount of variation <BR>that everyone has. <BR><BR>&gt; 2) cancer is the process where a clump of cells grow at a wildly<BR>&gt; inflated rate.&nbsp; The implications of forced growth clones is that<BR>&gt; either we've conquered cancer, or that we've managed to find the start<BR>&gt; growth/stop growth mechanisms.<BR><BR>Given that growth quickening is TL 10, I'd say that cancer will be <BR>basically a somewhat nasty historical curiosity, much like yaws, <BR>smallpox, and scarlet fever are today.<BR><BR>&gt; 3) is it ethical to grow a clone and deny him/her it's potential to be<BR>&gt; a fully matured and self-sustaining individual of society?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Highly dubious at best, and probably something that should be <BR>considered immoral.&nbsp; <BR><BR>&gt; And if it<BR>&gt; is *not* ethical to grow a clone for spare parts, is it ethical to<BR>&gt; genetically manipulate genetic material such that it can never have<BR>&gt; higher inteligence functions?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Why would this be unethical?&nbsp; All you have a hunk of brainless <BR>meat that was never anything more than this.&nbsp; Unless a society <BR>rules that genetic engineering of all sorts is immoral to use on <BR>sentients (a both foolish and unlikely to be popular choice) doing <BR>so sees ethically neutral.&nbsp; Given that you primarily do this sort of <BR>thing to provide medical treatment for the donor I see it as a moral <BR>and ethical good.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>&gt; It would be fully interesting to see<BR>&gt; what happens if you modify a clone body so that it can't start off<BR>&gt; with a brain, and then use it for reproductive purposes (Brain<BR>&gt; transplants anyone?).<BR><BR>I doubt you could create a brainless clone that could accept a <BR>brain.&nbsp; However, a head transplant might work.&nbsp; Sort of gruesome, <BR>but likely possible (perhaps some of the folks having their heads <BR>frozen will end up like this).<BR><BR>&gt; 4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to<BR>&gt; divide abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that<BR>&gt; they develop separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a<BR>&gt; clone of an individual does not have a soul?&nbsp; <BR><BR>I've not heard that fear outside of folks who have no real clue about <BR>what cloning is. <BR><BR>&gt; 5) in instances where genetic mapping has been done on humankind, and<BR>&gt; some 2,000 years plus has passed since this was first achieved, would<BR>&gt; not mankind know which genes trigger what conditions within the human<BR>&gt; body? Would not too, mankind understand what produces psionic ability?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; And finally, in a universe where Imperial Nobles have access to<BR>&gt; cutting edge technology, would not those individuals seek to use<BR>&gt; genetic science to improve their bloodlines?<BR><BR>Psionics might not be genetic at all.&nbsp; Perhaps you merely need to <BR>be exposed to just the right amount of psionic energy (insert any <BR>other form of actual or handwaved radiation here) at the right point <BR>in fetal or early childhood development to induce psionic latancy.&nbsp; If <BR>the exact mechanism is subtle and complex enough (perhaps <BR>exposure to a series of specific circumstances in a particular order <BR>is required) then it might still remain a mystery even at TL 16.&nbsp; <BR>Intelligence is clearly not purely a genetic phenomena, perhaps <BR>psionics is similar but even more environmentally determined. <BR><BR>As for genetic engineering. Some MegaTraveller material indicates <BR>that this has been done on a local level.&nbsp; However, clearly Vilani-<BR>influenced Imperial culture frowns on such things.<BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:57:47 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Question on cloning...<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 22:49, hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Hello Bill,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've always enjoyed thinking about Cloning and all that goes with it...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 1) how does one get a person's clone to be exactly the same height/weight as<BR>&gt; the donor's body <BR><BR>By duplicating the effects environmental factor that effected the original<BR><BR>&gt; 2) cancer is the process where a clump of cells grow at a wildly inflated<BR>&gt; rate.&nbsp; The implications of forced growth clones is that either we've conquered<BR>&gt; cancer, or that we've managed to find the start growth/stop growth mechanisms.<BR><BR>Yep, pretty much does.<BR><BR>&gt; 3) is it ethical to grow a clone and deny him/her it's potential to be a<BR>&gt; fully matured and self-sustaining individual of society?&nbsp; And if it is<BR>&gt; *not* ethical to grow a clone for spare parts, is it ethical to genetically<BR>&gt; manipulate genetic material such that it can never have higher inteligence<BR>&gt; functions?&nbsp; It would be fully interesting to see what happens if you modify a<BR>&gt; clone body so that it can't start off with a brain, and then use it for<BR>&gt; reproductive purposes (Brain transplants anyone?).<BR><BR>Me personally, I'd say not (same situation as bringing a child into the world <BR>and then denying him/her the ability to achieve their full potential). <BR>However, the existance of cloned doubles for Nobles clearly shows that the <BR>Thrid Imperium does not share my ethical viewpoint &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; 4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to divide<BR>&gt; abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that they develop<BR>&gt; separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a clone of an<BR>&gt; individual does not have a soul?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Interesting (and potentially explosive) question. I'd say that it requires more <BR>than one cell to posses a soul. Actually this very dilema is going to be one <BR>of the plot lines in my Prometheus Rising work.<BR><BR>&gt; 5) in instances where genetic mapping has been done on humankind, and some<BR>&gt; 2,000 years plus has passed since this was first achieved, would not mankind<BR>&gt; know which genes trigger what conditions within the human body? Would not too,<BR>&gt; mankind understand what produces psionic ability?&nbsp; And finally, in a universe<BR>&gt; where Imperial Nobles have access to cutting edge technology, would not those<BR>&gt; individuals seek to use genetic science to improve their bloodlines?<BR><BR>Doubtless it does happen (IIRC correctly, there are even canonical <BR>examples) but its similar to excessive use of anagathics by Nobles. A <BR>Noble can pobably get away with it to a limited extent, but social/cultural <BR>pressures prevent it from being widespread (the masses do not want to be <BR>ruled by a geneetically engineered and/or immortal elite from which they <BR>are excluded).<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 06:29:00 -0000<BR>From: "Ben Aaronovitch" &lt;bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Crusades of the Future<BR><BR>I couldn't help noticing recently that while religon is a hot button issue so<BR>are programming languages. It occured to me that in some societies, particularly<BR>high tech ones, various programming languages could reflect (or even cause)<BR>philosophical differences within or between societies that might lead to<BR>conflict. Perhaps even violent conflict.<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR>'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:25:29 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>I don't want to interrupt a good rant - you all seem to be enjoying it<BR>so much - but way back a long while ago the question was (basically)<BR>"can you suggest a programme I could write for Traveller in VB?". Can<BR>anyone actually help the poor chap?<BR><BR>- --<BR>Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>Email&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk<BR>Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:26:42 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Astrogation design<BR><BR>Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>&gt; Why are you using char(2) for you id fields instead of an integer<BR>&gt; field of some sort?&nbsp; Especially one tied to a Sequence.&nbsp; ('Autonumber'<BR>&gt; in Access lingo)<BR><BR>Three reasons:<BR><BR>1) There is an obscure star&nbsp; id&nbsp; code&nbsp; (used&nbsp; in&nbsp; some&nbsp; Gamelords<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; products) that starts with&nbsp; a&nbsp; 2&nbsp; character&nbsp; sector&nbsp; code.&nbsp; By<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; using 2 character sector id codes right from the start&nbsp; I&nbsp; can<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; add this in relatively easily when I get to writting that part<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; of my half finished program.&nbsp; (Trivial, but why make life hard<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; for youself unneccessarily?)<BR><BR>2) Habit.&nbsp; As a mainframe programmer working on legacy I&nbsp; usually<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; have to use indexed files rather than an&nbsp; RDBMS.&nbsp; Thus,&nbsp; there<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; is no formatted display utility for a file (unless&nbsp; you&nbsp; write<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; one and you usually don't have the time).&nbsp; So&nbsp; when&nbsp; debugging<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; you sometimes look at the contents of&nbsp; your&nbsp; file&nbsp; in&nbsp; a&nbsp; text<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; editor.&nbsp; Numbers stored in binary are&nbsp; fairly&nbsp; indecipherable,<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; but ascii character fields are okay.&nbsp; So&nbsp; by&nbsp; habit&nbsp; I&nbsp; always<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; make key fields ascii text.<BR><BR>3) Although I started this project using an Access database I&nbsp; do<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; not have the Access program.&nbsp; I was using an&nbsp; example&nbsp; program<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; that shipped with VB4(Prof) as a utility to create&nbsp; an&nbsp; Access<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; database and the structures within.&nbsp; So I&nbsp; didn't&nbsp; know&nbsp; there<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; was an autonumber feature.&nbsp; And maintaining&nbsp; sequence&nbsp; numbers<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; manually is a chore.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Subsector Position Table<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Any particular reason why this isn't part of the Subsector Table?&nbsp; I'm<BR>&gt; not saying you don't have a reason, I just don't see it.<BR><BR>As a "good little programmer" I try to put as much of my data&nbsp; in<BR>"third&nbsp; normal&nbsp; form"&nbsp; as&nbsp;&nbsp; possible&nbsp;&nbsp; (then&nbsp;&nbsp; denormalise&nbsp;&nbsp; when<BR>performance is an issue).&nbsp; The subsector codes (from A to P) have<BR>fixed positions (as established by canon).<BR><BR>For example:&nbsp; Subsector C of the Spinward Marches is&nbsp; the&nbsp; Regina<BR>subsector.&nbsp; Subsector C of the Trojan&nbsp; Reach&nbsp; is&nbsp; the&nbsp; Pax&nbsp; Rulin<BR>subsector.&nbsp; Each&nbsp; would&nbsp; have&nbsp; its&nbsp; own&nbsp; separate&nbsp; entry&nbsp; in&nbsp; the<BR>Subsector Table, yet both have&nbsp; their&nbsp; relative&nbsp; position&nbsp; (third<BR>along on the top row) the same.&nbsp; Thus,&nbsp; data&nbsp; normalisation&nbsp; says<BR>this is a separate data entity ... you&nbsp; should&nbsp; only&nbsp; store&nbsp; this<BR>once (in the Subsector Position Table) for *all* subsector Cs.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Border Table<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I'd suggest putting the Alignment in the System Table unless you<BR>&gt; specifically want to allocate Alignements to empty hexes.<BR><BR>Exactly.&nbsp; The best way I could come up with to implement&nbsp; borders<BR>that matched published canon was to allocate allignments to empty<BR>hexs (which I know sounds kind of dumb when you&nbsp; first&nbsp; think&nbsp; of<BR>it).&nbsp; Check out the screenshot on StuffOnline for an&nbsp; example&nbsp; of<BR>the Jewell subsector as displayed in my half finished program ...<BR>complete with borders.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Hex Position Table<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I don't understand what this last table represents.<BR><BR>I was building some data importers I noticed&nbsp; some&nbsp; file&nbsp; formats<BR>favour numbering hexs over the whole sector (from 0101&nbsp; to&nbsp; 3240)<BR>... aka "sector hex".&nbsp; I had decided to go&nbsp; with&nbsp; numbering&nbsp; hexs<BR>over subsectors as in the early LBBs (from 0101 to 0810) ...&nbsp; aka<BR>"subsector hex" ...plus using the letter codes (from A to P)&nbsp; for<BR>subsectors.&nbsp; This table translates system hex&nbsp; to/from&nbsp; subsector<BR>id and subsector hex.&nbsp; I could have implemented this as code&nbsp; but<BR>I chose this solution.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:33:15 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>Mark Preston wrote:<BR>&gt; I don't want to interrupt a good rant - you all seem to be enjoying it<BR>&gt; so much - but way back a long while ago the question was (basically)<BR>&gt; "can you suggest a programme I could write for Traveller in VB?". Can<BR>&gt; anyone actually help the poor chap?<BR><BR>I did&nbsp; (but&nbsp; it&nbsp; was&nbsp; possibly&nbsp; drowned&nbsp; out&nbsp; in&nbsp; the&nbsp; noise).&nbsp; I<BR>suggested a COACC vehicle builder.&nbsp; Actually, I suggested&nbsp; an&nbsp; MT<BR>vehicle builder similar to Rob Prior's utility but with&nbsp; emphesis<BR>on&nbsp; the&nbsp; various&nbsp; add-ins&nbsp; especially&nbsp; COACC.&nbsp;&nbsp; Its&nbsp;&nbsp; the&nbsp;&nbsp; COACC<BR>functionality I really want.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 00:39:57 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>On 7 Mar 2001, at 11:33, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Mark Preston wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; I don't want to interrupt a good rant - you all seem to be enjoying it<BR>&gt; &gt; so much - but way back a long while ago the question was (basically)<BR>&gt; &gt; "can you suggest a programme I could write for Traveller in VB?". Can<BR>&gt; &gt; anyone actually help the poor chap?<BR><BR>&gt; I did&nbsp; (but&nbsp; it&nbsp; was&nbsp; possibly&nbsp; drowned&nbsp; out&nbsp; in&nbsp; the&nbsp; noise).&nbsp; I<BR>&gt; suggested a COACC vehicle builder.&nbsp; Actually, I suggested&nbsp; an&nbsp; MT<BR>&gt; vehicle builder similar to Rob Prior's utility but with&nbsp; emphesis<BR>&gt; on&nbsp; the&nbsp; various&nbsp; add-ins&nbsp; especially&nbsp; COACC.&nbsp;&nbsp; Its&nbsp;&nbsp; the&nbsp;&nbsp; COACC<BR>&gt; functionality I really want.<BR><BR>Yes I did get it and I am working on it. At the moment I'm just starting the <BR>detailed design. I expect to start coding in a month or so.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:52:49 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>&gt; Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Beginners should never be taught C or assembly language.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Well, I disagree; maybe they shouldn't be taught C first-thing,<BR>&gt; but they should probably learn it before they get too far into<BR>&gt; the higher-level languages -- if they want to be as flexible and<BR>&gt; adaptable as possible.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; But today, most apps are written in C and C++. Heavily disciplined<BR>&gt; use of C++ can just about eliminate explicit pointer management,<BR>&gt; but any programmer in the real world is eventually going to be<BR>&gt; exposed to plain old pointers, and I'd really really prefer it if<BR>&gt; they'd learn the concepts, even if it were as "crude and unsafe<BR>&gt; but rebindable references". <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Pointer education is like sex education -- you can pretend the<BR>&gt; subject doesn't exist, but the kids are going to be exposed to<BR>&gt; it eventually.<BR><BR>I've been a professional programmer since 1987,&nbsp; worked&nbsp; for&nbsp; the<BR>construction industry,&nbsp; automotive,&nbsp; telecoms,&nbsp; several&nbsp; merchant<BR>banks, software houses, and multinationals.&nbsp; My question is this:<BR>what's a "pointer"?<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 04:07:15 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Introduction<BR><BR>Greetings All,<BR><BR>Just a quick post to say hello and introduce myself to the list. My name is Antaine, and I am 34 yo bloke from Australia. I have played Traveller since around 80-81 but due to a real time Military career, I have been "away" from gaming for quite a few years. I am just re-involving myself and having found Downport.com, followed my nose and wound up in mIRC and now here. (Thanks Jeff for your advice on the major-domo error) <BR><BR>I am a CT player and once I am back into the groove so to speak, I'll be running a game or two. I have to face the huge challenge now of finding some people for face to face gaming. Any Aussies in NSW feel free to e-mail me off-list and maybe we can arrange something.<BR><BR>For the rest on the list, I usually post only if I have something to say or a question to ask, but hope to get to know a few fellow Sophonts around the globe.<BR><BR>Respectfully,<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>&lt;geek code to follow&gt;<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:07:17 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>&gt; Yes I did get it and I am working on it. At the moment I'm just starting<BR>the <BR>&gt; detailed design. I expect to start coding in a month or so.<BR><BR>Cool.&nbsp; :-)<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:15:51 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Ginger = Stirling Engine?<BR><BR>http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/066/nation/Inventor_s_clues_fuel_talk_that_ideal_engine_is_near+.shtml<BR><BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;Pine.BSF.4.10.10103061554120.16632-100000@shell.tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>Even 1st pregnancies can have their risks (and this is when breeding with <BR>someone who - as far as I know - is the same species!). You can develop a <BR>condition called pre-eclampsia, which simply put is the <BR>pregnancy equivalent of transplant organ rejection - the mother's body <BR>rejects the baby inside and the only treatment is to get it out FAST. If <BR>you're lucky, the baby is in a viable state. It is a killer, the mother <BR>will be dead in hours if the baby is not removed.<BR><BR>It normally happens on a first pregnancy only. However, if you change <BR>partners and get pregnant again, it can recur. Dunno. No plans to change <BR>partner!<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR>(In case you worry, we were lucky - the baby survived. She's now 4 and <BR>already interested in roleplayinG!)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;3.0.1.32.20010306225939.006a7088@buffnet.net&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>As I understand the Rh factors, Hal is correct. If the parents are <BR>different (one Rh+, the other Rh-), the first child will be born (at least <BR>as far as THAT problem is concerned) without difficulty. However, leakage <BR>of foetal cells into the mother's bloodstream sensitises her so that when <BR>a second pregnancy begins antibodies are developed to the foetal blood of <BR>the child within her. Hence what is popularly refered to as a 'blue baby' <BR>who needs immediate and possibly massive transfusion on arrival into this <BR>world.<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loops<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;B6CB1E21.49A5%drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>Det/prima-cord is very useful... but quite hard to get hold of :-(<BR><BR>Makes good cutting charges for things like building entry. If you are <BR>doing house clearance, the standard method is NOT to go in by the door - <BR>the enemy sort of expect that. So you use a frame charge which is <BR>basically prima-cord on a square wood frame (pre-prepared) to make a <BR>'mousehole' through which you first post a couple of grenades and then <BR>effect your entry.<BR><BR>A similar trick - only with lesser amounts of explosive - is used to blow <BR>out windows during hostage rescue operations. Oh, and you usually chuck <BR>'flash-bangs' rather than explosive grenades. The hostages prefer it!<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3776<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3777</B></TD></TR>
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<TD vAlign=top width="10%">Date: </TD>
<TD>3/7/01 5:24:44 AM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, March 7 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3777<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Crusades of the Future<BR>Re: Cordite loops<BR>Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3776<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23:18 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Crusades of the Future<BR><BR>Ben Aaronovitch wrote:<BR>&gt; I couldn't help noticing recently that while religon is a hot<BR>&gt; button issue so are programming languages. It occured to me that<BR>&gt; in some societies, particularly high tech ones, various programming<BR>&gt; languages could reflect (or even cause) philosophical differences<BR>&gt; within or between societies that might lead to conflict. Perhaps<BR>&gt; even violent conflict.<BR><BR>Until recently I would have said that was a very silly idea.&nbsp; But<BR>now ...<BR><BR>Obviously Star Trek got it wrong when they portrayed Mr Spock&nbsp; as<BR>a calm logical computer expert ... it&nbsp; seems&nbsp; that&nbsp; in&nbsp; RL&nbsp; there<BR>ain't&nbsp; no&nbsp; such&nbsp; thing!&nbsp; You&nbsp; can&nbsp; just&nbsp; imagine&nbsp; the&nbsp; fisticuffs<BR>breaking out during a symposium at the Vulcan Academy of Science.<BR><BR>ObTrav: Programming languages ...&nbsp; the&nbsp; real&nbsp; reason&nbsp; behind&nbsp; the<BR>Rebellion.&nbsp; Strephon liked&nbsp; proprietry&nbsp; languages&nbsp; (anything&nbsp; MS)<BR>with their support and large user base, Dulinor thought&nbsp; everyone<BR>would benefit from the virtues of platform-independant Java,&nbsp; and<BR>Lucan was secretly just a malicious script-kiddie (who&nbsp; unleashed<BR>Mellissa 2).<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 04:35:03 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loops<BR><BR>- --- mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;In-Reply-To: &lt;B6CB1E21.49A5%drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Greetings dear hearts.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Det/prima-cord is very useful... but quite hard to get hold of :-(<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Makes good cutting charges for things like building entry. If you are <BR>&gt;doing house clearance, the standard method is NOT to go in by the door - <BR>&gt;the enemy sort of expect that. So you use a frame charge which is <BR>&gt;basically prima-cord on a square wood frame (pre-prepared) to make a <BR>&gt;'mousehole' through which you first post a couple of grenades and then <BR>&gt;effect your entry.<BR><BR>A similar method is to use a satchel shaped charge combining det cord and plastic to blow the mouse hole. This can save on grenades as there is a greater generation of shrapnel from the wall. ;o) Problem here is that it is time intensive in preperation in relation to the frame/det cord method.<BR><BR>Respectfully,<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR><BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 12:43:05 GMT<BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Actually, there are people who claim exactly that.&nbsp; Unfortunately,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; terms like "subspecies" carry emotional luggage.&nbsp; I believe that<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "subspecies" is more difficult to define than species, but where<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; humans are involved there are even more complications.<BR><BR>Total layman's question:&nbsp; are the different breeds of dog, like<BR>chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?<BR><BR>ObTrav:&nbsp; the possibility of subspecies of Vargr, naturally...<BR><BR>Stephen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 13:23:24 <BR>From: "Michael McKeown" &lt;mmckeown67@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3776<BR><BR>&gt;For the rest on the list, I usually post only if I have something to &gt;say <BR>&gt;or a question to ask, but hope to get to know a few fellow &gt;Sophonts around <BR>&gt;the globe.<BR><BR>&gt;Respectfully,<BR><BR>&gt;Antaine.<BR>&lt;geek code to follow&gt;<BR><BR>Welcome to the list...<BR><BR>Mike<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>- ----Original Message Follows----<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3776<BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:24:24 -0500 (EST)<BR>Received: from [204.85.32.11] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id <BR>MHotMailBC6F73B100A840043258CC55200B08F10; Wed Mar 07 04:25:26 2001<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) <BR>with SMTP id HAA88185;Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:25:09 -0500 (EST)(envelope-from <BR>owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:24:24 <BR>- -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id <BR>HAA88106for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:24:24 -0500 <BR>(EST)(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>&gt;From owner-traveller@lists.ient.com Wed Mar 07 04:27:10 2001<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103071224.HAA88106@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, March 7 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3776<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>Scramjet<BR>Re: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)<BR>Re: New law in Australia<BR>Re:&nbsp; Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>Re: New law in Australia<BR>Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Re: Question on cloning...<BR>Re: Question on cloning...<BR>Crusades of the Future<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: Astrogation design<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>Introduction<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>Ginger = Stirling Engine?<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Re: Cordite loops<BR><BR>- ----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:36:19 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>Rob wrote :<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Now all we need is a way to cross this with the "Hot Fusion in a<BR>&gt; can" thread...<BR><BR>Well, "Hot fusion in a can" sounds like a good slogan for a drink of some<BR>sort !<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:43:58 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; GTL-9 antimatter storage is 500 lb/gram, or 227 grams/mg (681 g/3<BR>&gt; mg).&nbsp; That's about twice as good as Forward's numbers.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Only if a 'kitchen refrigerator' weighs over 400 tonnes (for a<BR>density of more than 50 times that of lead).&nbsp; Are you sure you aren't<BR>confusing grams with kilograms, or with pounds?<BR><BR><BR>- - --<BR>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+&gt;++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- <BR>kk--<BR>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:53:25 +1100<BR>From: Rob &lt;rhoughto@one.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Rob wrote :<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Now all we need is a way to cross this with the "Hot Fusion in a<BR>&gt; &gt; can" thread...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Well, "Hot fusion in a can" sounds like a good slogan for a drink of some<BR>&gt; sort !<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Probably some sort of self heating coffee/alcohol drink, "turn can over, rip<BR>off tab, turn can upright, wait and remove lid...caution contents are <BR>hot..."<BR><BR>"Cold fusion in a can would be the same, but an iced coffee version..."<BR><BR>DS...can we have this in our game?<BR><BR>Rob<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:56:18<BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>My attempt at the nose art for the Mahina Tiare is done, flowers and all. It<BR>is posted at:<BR>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/NoseArt.htm<BR><BR>Bill, thanks again for the interesting project.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:34:28 -0800<BR>From: "Antony Farrell" &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Scramjet<BR><BR>Thought the list may be interested in an article from the University of<BR>Queensland regarding testing of a scramjet.<BR><BR>You can find it at<BR>http://www.uq.edu.au/research/research-report/research2000-blast.htm<BR><BR>Antony<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:42:30 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;And if they did, why experiment with only archaic Homo sapiens?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 1) It was the most adaptable of the hominids the Ancients found, so they <BR>stuck<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; to them.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 2) As above, but samples of the other species were taken. However, none <BR>of them<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; survived into historic times.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 3) As 2), but some survived. They just haven't been found yet.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 4) As 3) and some of them have been found. Note that this last one would<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; defintiely be contrary to canon.<BR><BR>IIRC Canon says only that none of the _surviving_ races were<BR>not Homo Sapiens. Therefore:<BR><BR>5) All samples of other species that survived into historical times<BR>and were discovered were exterminated or died off after discovery<BR>but before the date (probably about 1105 Imperial or so) of<BR>the canon statements.<BR><BR>Should also be possible, shouldn't it?<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:46:53 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New law in Australia<BR><BR>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;As you may, or may not be aware, it is now illegal in Australia to <BR>forward<BR>&gt; &gt;email without explicit permission of it's author. You face fines up to<BR>&gt; &gt;$60000 and 5 years in gaol.<BR>&gt; &gt;To protect other people, I recommend you use a stationay such as this <BR>one<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&lt;name&gt; &lt;phone&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Copyright  &lt;ccyy&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this<BR>&gt; &gt;document, but changing it is not allowed.<BR><BR>Does editing someone's email, as I did above constitute<BR>'changing it' under the applicable law? If so you may want<BR>to allow editing as well so that people don't have to include<BR>your entire message with theirs.<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:01:44 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re:&nbsp; Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>"Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt; wrote<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: &gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;ps: Why should *I* care if Claudia Schiffer serves it?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Well, broken engagement or not, she could probably get you that hunk <BR>David<BR>&gt; Copperfield's home phone number....<BR><BR>While Kiri may have what David is looking for, she does not<BR>have it as, er, original equipment....<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:10:44 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 14:08, Jesse Degraff wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator<BR>&gt; &gt; will suffice.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Don't you mean det-cord loop? :)&nbsp; I didn't think cordite came in cord <BR>form.<BR>&gt; Mark?<BR><BR>I can't imagine cordite doing much good. Besides it comes in little rods <BR>like<BR>pencil leads (for .303 rounds) or larger rods (for artillery).<BR><BR>- - --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:10:44 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 14:45, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Yeah, det-cord or prima-cord.&nbsp; Cordite is a propellant made from<BR>&gt; nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine and petroleum jelly, usually extruded into<BR>&gt; spaghetti like strands, and used primarily by British and Empire military <BR>in<BR>&gt; smallarms and some artillery.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The combustion byproducts have a characteristic 'tangy' odor, the "reek <BR>of<BR>&gt; cordite".<BR><BR>If you get some genuine Mark VII .303 rounds and disect them you'll find <BR>it's a<BR>nice browny-orage colour. Also if you examine the rods closely you'll see<BR>little holes than run down the length of the rods (which are about 1.5" <BR>long,<BR>IIRC). Considering that it was invented before WWI (again, IIRC) it's quite<BR>high-tech stuff.<BR><BR>- - --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:10:44 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:12, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On top of that, I lived in a 3.2 beer state in my teens.&nbsp; If you've never<BR>&gt; experienced the misery that is 3.2 beer, count yourself very, very lucky.<BR><BR>I presume that this means something along the lines of "no beer is allowed <BR>more<BR>than 3.2% alcohol"? If so I sympathise - even weak modern NZ beers make 4%<BR>(some arsehole did this survey that concluded that we like our beer at 4.5% <BR>and<BR>under, and some even bigger arsehole listened).<BR><BR>- - --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:15:24 +1100<BR>From: Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New law in Australia<BR><BR>Peter Newman wrote:<BR>&gt; Does editing someone's email, as I did above constitute<BR>&gt; 'changing it' under the applicable law? If so you may want<BR>&gt; to allow editing as well so that people don't have to include<BR>&gt; your entire message with theirs.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Don't forget adding "&gt; " marks at the beginning of each line, not to<BR>mention the automatic word wrapping that some email readers do.&nbsp; Not<BR>that it would matter much -- "fair use" includes quoting excepts of a<BR>copyrighted work for comment, at least under what I believe of<BR>Australian law.<BR><BR><BR>- - - Tim<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:24:24 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote :-<BR>&gt; As written, it doesn't seem obvious what the minimum size of a<BR>&gt; storage container is,...<BR>The limit would appear to be the support structures required to keep the<BR>antihydrogen cold. Turbulence experiments aside, how small can we make Dewar<BR>flasks containing liquid helium?<BR><BR>Are there any plausible alternative storage media?<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:23:53 -0800<BR>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>Subject: Re: Question on cloning...<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Hello Bill,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've always enjoyed thinking about Cloning and all that goes with<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; it...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 1) how does one get a person's clone to be exactly the same<BR>&gt; height/weight as the donor's body<BR><BR>I imagine this would be possible, especially with grav technology.<BR>If you are using growth quickening, you simply monitor the clone's<BR>development, adjust nutrients and gravity to compensate, and you'll<BR>likely get height and weight within the normal amount of variation<BR>that everyone has.<BR><BR>&gt; 2) cancer is the process where a clump of cells grow at a wildly<BR>&gt; inflated rate.&nbsp; The implications of forced growth clones is that<BR>&gt; either we've conquered cancer, or that we've managed to find the start<BR>&gt; growth/stop growth mechanisms.<BR><BR>Given that growth quickening is TL 10, I'd say that cancer will be<BR>basically a somewhat nasty historical curiosity, much like yaws,<BR>smallpox, and scarlet fever are today.<BR><BR>&gt; 3) is it ethical to grow a clone and deny him/her it's potential to be<BR>&gt; a fully matured and self-sustaining individual of society?<BR><BR>Highly dubious at best, and probably something that should be<BR>considered immoral.<BR><BR>&gt; And if it<BR>&gt; is *not* ethical to grow a clone for spare parts, is it ethical to<BR>&gt; genetically manipulate genetic material such that it can never have<BR>&gt; higher inteligence functions?<BR><BR>Why would this be unethical?&nbsp; All you have a hunk of brainless<BR>meat that was never anything more than this.&nbsp; Unless a society<BR>rules that genetic engineering of all sorts is immoral to use on<BR>sentients (a both foolish and unlikely to be popular choice) doing<BR>so sees ethically neutral.&nbsp; Given that you primarily do this sort of<BR>thing to provide medical treatment for the donor I see it as a moral<BR>and ethical good.<BR><BR>&gt; It would be fully interesting to see<BR>&gt; what happens if you modify a clone body so that it can't start off<BR>&gt; with a brain, and then use it for reproductive purposes (Brain<BR>&gt; transplants anyone?).<BR><BR>I doubt you could create a brainless clone that could accept a<BR>brain.&nbsp; However, a head transplant might work.&nbsp; Sort of gruesome,<BR>but likely possible (perhaps some of the folks having their heads<BR>frozen will end up like this).<BR><BR>&gt; 4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to<BR>&gt; divide abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that<BR>&gt; they develop separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a<BR>&gt; clone of an individual does not have a soul?<BR><BR>I've not heard that fear outside of folks who have no real clue about<BR>what cloning is.<BR><BR>&gt; 5) in instances where genetic mapping has been done on humankind, and<BR>&gt; some 2,000 years plus has passed since this was first achieved, would<BR>&gt; not mankind know which genes trigger what conditions within the human<BR>&gt; body? Would not too, mankind understand what produces psionic ability?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; And finally, in a universe where Imperial Nobles have access to<BR>&gt; cutting edge technology, would not those individuals seek to use<BR>&gt; genetic science to improve their bloodlines?<BR><BR>Psionics might not be genetic at all.&nbsp; Perhaps you merely need to<BR>be exposed to just the right amount of psionic energy (insert any<BR>other form of actual or handwaved radiation here) at the right point<BR>in fetal or early childhood development to induce psionic latancy.&nbsp; If<BR>the exact mechanism is subtle and complex enough (perhaps<BR>exposure to a series of specific circumstances in a particular order<BR>is required) then it might still remain a mystery even at TL 16.<BR>Intelligence is clearly not purely a genetic phenomena, perhaps<BR>psionics is similar but even more environmentally determined.<BR><BR>As for genetic engineering. Some MegaTraveller material indicates<BR>that this has been done on a local level.&nbsp; However, clearly Vilani-<BR>influenced Imperial culture frowns on such things.<BR><BR>- - -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:57:47 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Question on cloning...<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 22:49, hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Hello Bill,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've always enjoyed thinking about Cloning and all that goes with it...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 1) how does one get a person's clone to be exactly the same height/weight <BR>as<BR>&gt; the donor's body<BR><BR>By duplicating the effects environmental factor that effected the original<BR><BR>&gt; 2) cancer is the process where a clump of cells grow at a wildly inflated<BR>&gt; rate.&nbsp; The implications of forced growth clones is that either we've <BR>conquered<BR>&gt; cancer, or that we've managed to find the start growth/stop growth <BR>mechanisms.<BR><BR>Yep, pretty much does.<BR><BR>&gt; 3) is it ethical to grow a clone and deny him/her it's potential to be a<BR>&gt; fully matured and self-sustaining individual of society?&nbsp; And if it is<BR>&gt; *not* ethical to grow a clone for spare parts, is it ethical to <BR>genetically<BR>&gt; manipulate genetic material such that it can never have higher <BR>inteligence<BR>&gt; functions?&nbsp; It would be fully interesting to see what happens if you <BR>modify a<BR>&gt; clone body so that it can't start off with a brain, and then use it for<BR>&gt; reproductive purposes (Brain transplants anyone?).<BR><BR>Me personally, I'd say not (same situation as bringing a child into the <BR>world<BR>and then denying him/her the ability to achieve their full potential).<BR>However, the existance of cloned doubles for Nobles clearly shows that the<BR>Thrid Imperium does not share my ethical viewpoint &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; 4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to divide<BR>&gt; abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that they develop<BR>&gt; separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a clone of an<BR>&gt; individual does not have a soul?<BR><BR>Interesting (and potentially explosive) question. I'd say that it requires <BR>more<BR>than one cell to posses a soul. Actually this very dilema is going to be one<BR>of the plot lines in my Prometheus Rising work.<BR><BR>&gt; 5) in instances where genetic mapping has been done on humankind, and <BR>some<BR>&gt; 2,000 years plus has passed since this was first achieved, would not <BR>mankind<BR>&gt; know which genes trigger what conditions within the human body? Would not <BR>too,<BR>&gt; mankind understand what produces psionic ability?&nbsp; And finally, in a <BR>universe<BR>&gt; where Imperial Nobles have access to cutting edge technology, would not <BR>those<BR>&gt; individuals seek to use genetic science to improve their bloodlines?<BR><BR>Doubtless it does happen (IIRC correctly, there are even canonical<BR>examples) but its similar to excessive use of anagathics by Nobles. A<BR>Noble can pobably get away with it to a limited extent, but social/cultural<BR>pressures prevent it from being widespread (the masses do not want to be<BR>ruled by a geneetically engineered and/or immortal elite from which they<BR>are excluded).<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 06:29:00 -0000<BR>From: "Ben Aaronovitch" &lt;bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Crusades of the Future<BR><BR>I couldn't help noticing recently that while religon is a hot button issue <BR>so<BR>are programming languages. It occured to me that in some societies, <BR>particularly<BR>high tech ones, various programming languages could reflect (or even cause)<BR>philosophical differences within or between societies that might lead to<BR>conflict. Perhaps even violent conflict.<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR>'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:25:29 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>I don't want to interrupt a good rant - you all seem to be enjoying it<BR>so much - but way back a long while ago the question was (basically)<BR>"can you suggest a programme I could write for Traveller in VB?". Can<BR>anyone actually help the poor chap?<BR><BR>- - --<BR>Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>Email&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk<BR>Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:26:42 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Astrogation design<BR><BR>Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>&gt; Why are you using char(2) for you id fields instead of an integer<BR>&gt; field of some sort?&nbsp; Especially one tied to a Sequence.&nbsp; ('Autonumber'<BR>&gt; in Access lingo)<BR><BR>Three reasons:<BR><BR>1) There is an obscure star&nbsp; id&nbsp; code&nbsp; (used&nbsp; in&nbsp; some&nbsp; Gamelords<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; products) that starts with&nbsp; a&nbsp; 2&nbsp; character&nbsp; sector&nbsp; code.&nbsp; By<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; using 2 character sector id codes right from the start&nbsp; I&nbsp; can<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; add this in relatively easily when I get to writting that part<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; of my half finished program.&nbsp; (Trivial, but why make life hard<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for youself unneccessarily?)<BR><BR>2) Habit.&nbsp; As a mainframe programmer working on legacy I&nbsp; usually<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; have to use indexed files rather than an&nbsp; RDBMS.&nbsp; Thus,&nbsp; there<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; is no formatted display utility for a file (unless&nbsp; you&nbsp; write<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; one and you usually don't have the time).&nbsp; So&nbsp; when&nbsp; debugging<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; you sometimes look at the contents of&nbsp; your&nbsp; file&nbsp; in&nbsp; a&nbsp; text<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; editor.&nbsp; Numbers stored in binary are&nbsp; fairly&nbsp; indecipherable,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; but ascii character fields are okay.&nbsp; So&nbsp; by&nbsp; habit&nbsp; I&nbsp; always<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; make key fields ascii text.<BR><BR>3) Although I started this project using an Access database I&nbsp; do<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; not have the Access program.&nbsp; I was using an&nbsp; example&nbsp; program<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; that shipped with VB4(Prof) as a utility to create&nbsp; an&nbsp; Access<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; database and the structures within.&nbsp; So I&nbsp; didn't&nbsp; know&nbsp; there<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; was an autonumber feature.&nbsp; And maintaining&nbsp; sequence&nbsp; numbers<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; manually is a chore.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Subsector Position Table<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Any particular reason why this isn't part of the Subsector Table?&nbsp; I'm<BR>&gt; not saying you don't have a reason, I just don't see it.<BR><BR>As a "good little programmer" I try to put as much of my data&nbsp; in<BR>"third&nbsp; normal&nbsp; form"&nbsp; as&nbsp;&nbsp; possible&nbsp;&nbsp; (then&nbsp;&nbsp; denormalise&nbsp;&nbsp; when<BR>performance is an issue).&nbsp; The subsector codes (from A to P) have<BR>fixed positions (as established by canon).<BR><BR>For example:&nbsp; Subsector C of the Spinward Marches is&nbsp; the&nbsp; Regina<BR>subsector.&nbsp; Subsector C of the Trojan&nbsp; Reach&nbsp; is&nbsp; the&nbsp; Pax&nbsp; Rulin<BR>subsector.&nbsp; Each&nbsp; would&nbsp; have&nbsp; its&nbsp; own&nbsp; separate&nbsp; entry&nbsp; in&nbsp; the<BR>Subsector Table, yet both have&nbsp; their&nbsp; relative&nbsp; position&nbsp; (third<BR>along on the top row) the same.&nbsp; Thus,&nbsp; data&nbsp; normalisation&nbsp; says<BR>this is a separate data entity ... you&nbsp; should&nbsp; only&nbsp; store&nbsp; this<BR>once (in the Subsector Position Table) for *all* subsector Cs.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Border Table<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I'd suggest putting the Alignment in the System Table unless you<BR>&gt; specifically want to allocate Alignements to empty hexes.<BR><BR>Exactly.&nbsp; The best way I could come up with to implement&nbsp; borders<BR>that matched published canon was to allocate allignments to empty<BR>hexs (which I know sounds kind of dumb when you&nbsp; first&nbsp; think&nbsp; of<BR>it).&nbsp; Check out the screenshot on StuffOnline for an&nbsp; example&nbsp; of<BR>the Jewell subsector as displayed in my half finished program ...<BR>complete with borders.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Hex Position Table<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I don't understand what this last table represents.<BR><BR>I was building some data importers I noticed&nbsp; some&nbsp; file&nbsp; formats<BR>favour numbering hexs over the whole sector (from 0101&nbsp; to&nbsp; 3240)<BR>... aka "sector hex".&nbsp; I had decided to go&nbsp; with&nbsp; numbering&nbsp; hexs<BR>over subsectors as in the early LBBs (from 0101 to 0810) ...&nbsp; aka<BR>"subsector hex" ...plus using the letter codes (from A to P)&nbsp; for<BR>subsectors.&nbsp; This table translates system hex&nbsp; to/from&nbsp; subsector<BR>id and subsector hex.&nbsp; I could have implemented this as code&nbsp; but<BR>I chose this solution.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:33:15 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>Mark Preston wrote:<BR>&gt; I don't want to interrupt a good rant - you all seem to be enjoying it<BR>&gt; so much - but way back a long while ago the question was (basically)<BR>&gt; "can you suggest a programme I could write for Traveller in VB?". Can<BR>&gt; anyone actually help the poor chap?<BR><BR>I did&nbsp; (but&nbsp; it&nbsp; was&nbsp; possibly&nbsp; drowned&nbsp; out&nbsp; in&nbsp; the&nbsp; noise).&nbsp; I<BR>suggested a COACC vehicle builder.&nbsp; Actually, I suggested&nbsp; an&nbsp; MT<BR>vehicle builder similar to Rob Prior's utility but with&nbsp; emphesis<BR>on&nbsp; the&nbsp; various&nbsp; add-ins&nbsp; especially&nbsp; COACC.&nbsp;&nbsp; Its&nbsp;&nbsp; the&nbsp;&nbsp; COACC<BR>functionality I really want.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 00:39:57 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>On 7 Mar 2001, at 11:33, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Mark Preston wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; I don't want to interrupt a good rant - you all seem to be enjoying it<BR>&gt; &gt; so much - but way back a long while ago the question was (basically)<BR>&gt; &gt; "can you suggest a programme I could write for Traveller in VB?". Can<BR>&gt; &gt; anyone actually help the poor chap?<BR><BR>&gt; I did&nbsp; (but&nbsp; it&nbsp; was&nbsp; possibly&nbsp; drowned&nbsp; out&nbsp; in&nbsp; the&nbsp; noise).&nbsp; I<BR>&gt; suggested a COACC vehicle builder.&nbsp; Actually, I suggested&nbsp; an&nbsp; MT<BR>&gt; vehicle builder similar to Rob Prior's utility but with&nbsp; emphesis<BR>&gt; on&nbsp; the&nbsp; various&nbsp; add-ins&nbsp; especially&nbsp; COACC.&nbsp;&nbsp; Its&nbsp;&nbsp; the&nbsp;&nbsp; COACC<BR>&gt; functionality I really want.<BR><BR>Yes I did get it and I am working on it. At the moment I'm just starting the<BR>detailed design. I expect to start coding in a month or so.<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:52:49 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>&gt; Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Beginners should never be taught C or assembly language.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Well, I disagree; maybe they shouldn't be taught C first-thing,<BR>&gt; but they should probably learn it before they get too far into<BR>&gt; the higher-level languages -- if they want to be as flexible and<BR>&gt; adaptable as possible.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; But today, most apps are written in C and C++. Heavily disciplined<BR>&gt; use of C++ can just about eliminate explicit pointer management,<BR>&gt; but any programmer in the real world is eventually going to be<BR>&gt; exposed to plain old pointers, and I'd really really prefer it if<BR>&gt; they'd learn the concepts, even if it were as "crude and unsafe<BR>&gt; but rebindable references".<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Pointer education is like sex education -- you can pretend the<BR>&gt; subject doesn't exist, but the kids are going to be exposed to<BR>&gt; it eventually.<BR><BR>I've been a professional programmer since 1987,&nbsp; worked&nbsp; for&nbsp; the<BR>construction industry,&nbsp; automotive,&nbsp; telecoms,&nbsp; several&nbsp; merchant<BR>banks, software houses, and multinationals.&nbsp; My question is this:<BR>what's a "pointer"?<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 04:07:15 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Introduction<BR><BR>Greetings All,<BR><BR>Just a quick post to say hello and introduce myself to the list. My name is <BR>Antaine, and I am 34 yo bloke from Australia. I have played Traveller since <BR>around 80-81 but due to a real time Military career, I have been "away" from <BR>gaming for quite a few years. I am just re-involving myself and having found <BR>Downport.com, followed my nose and wound up in mIRC and now here. (Thanks <BR>Jeff for your advice on the major-domo error)<BR><BR>I am a CT player and once I am back into the groove so to speak, I'll be <BR>running a game or two. I have to face the huge challenge now of finding some <BR>people for face to face gaming. Any Aussies in NSW feel free to e-mail me <BR>off-list and maybe we can arrange something.<BR><BR>For the rest on the list, I usually post only if I have something to say or <BR>a question to ask, but hope to get to know a few fellow Sophonts around the <BR>globe.<BR><BR>Respectfully,<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>&lt;geek code to follow&gt;<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:07:17 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>&gt; Yes I did get it and I am working on it. At the moment I'm just starting<BR>the<BR>&gt; detailed design. I expect to start coding in a month or so.<BR><BR>Cool.&nbsp; :-)<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:15:51 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Ginger = Stirling Engine?<BR><BR>http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/066/nation/Inventor_s_clues_fuel_talk_that_ideal_engine_is_near+.shtml<BR><BR>- - <BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>- - <BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;Pine.BSF.4.10.10103061554120.16632-100000@shell.tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>Even 1st pregnancies can have their risks (and this is when breeding with<BR>someone who - as far as I know - is the same species!). You can develop a<BR>condition called pre-eclampsia, which simply put is the<BR>pregnancy equivalent of transplant organ rejection - the mother's body<BR>rejects the baby inside and the only treatment is to get it out FAST. If<BR>you're lucky, the baby is in a viable state. It is a killer, the mother<BR>will be dead in hours if the baby is not removed.<BR><BR>It normally happens on a first pregnancy only. However, if you change<BR>partners and get pregnant again, it can recur. Dunno. No plans to change<BR>partner!<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR>(In case you worry, we were lucky - the baby survived. She's now 4 and<BR>already interested in roleplayinG!)<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;3.0.1.32.20010306225939.006a7088@buffnet.net&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>As I understand the Rh factors, Hal is correct. If the parents are<BR>different (one Rh+, the other Rh-), the first child will be born (at least<BR>as far as THAT problem is concerned) without difficulty. However, leakage<BR>of foetal cells into the mother's bloodstream sensitises her so that when<BR>a second pregnancy begins antibodies are developed to the foetal blood of<BR>the child within her. Hence what is popularly refered to as a 'blue baby'<BR>who needs immediate and possibly massive transfusion on arrival into this<BR>world.<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loops<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;B6CB1E21.49A5%drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>Det/prima-cord is very useful... but quite hard to get hold of :-(<BR><BR>Makes good cutting charges for things like building entry. If you are<BR>doing house clearance, the standard method is NOT to go in by the door -<BR>the enemy sort of expect that. So you use a frame charge which is<BR>basically prima-cord on a square wood frame (pre-prepared) to make a<BR>'mousehole' through which you first post a couple of grenades and then<BR>effect your entry.<BR><BR>A similar trick - only with lesser amounts of explosive - is used to blow<BR>out windows during hostage rescue operations. Oh, and you usually chuck<BR>'flash-bangs' rather than explosive grenades. The hostages prefer it!<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>- ------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3776<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3777<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3778</B></TD></TR>
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<TD vAlign=top width="10%">Date: </TD>
<TD>3/7/01 9:13:00 AM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, March 7 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3778<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt; <BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>RE: sapiens<BR>Re: Introduction<BR>Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3773<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>Re: Wealth <BR>RE: Astrogation design<BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: Introduction<BR>Re: Location of QSDS and SSDS<BR>Re: Location of QSDS and SSDS<BR>RE: sapiens (long)<BR>RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>RE: sapiens (long)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:29:49 -0000<BR>From: "Michael R. Blair" &lt;michael@carrickfergus.schoolzone.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned that<BR>dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have been<BR>associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.<BR>To me it sounds as if the two species have almost evolved in parallel or<BR>symbiosis.<BR><BR>Michael R. Blair<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:55:01 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt; <BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:12, Douglas Berry wrote:<BR>&gt; At 11:29 AM 03/06/01 -0500, you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;Sorry - I didn't make myself clear - I meant the concentrate form as <BR>&gt; &gt;opposed to distributing the recipe.&nbsp; I agree with you, if you ship <BR>&gt; &gt;physical materials, a concentrate would be more economical than the <BR>&gt; &gt;full brew.&nbsp; And the transportation might have adverse affects on the <BR>&gt; &gt;product (although I wonder about the taste of a "Jumpspace Stout"...).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/307ale.htm<BR><BR>ROTFLMAO!! <BR><BR>Thanks, that really brightened a snowy morning. :)<BR><BR>Rob<BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>'Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.'<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:01:46 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 12:53, Paul Drye wrote:<BR>&gt; Hatred for American beer has become a cultural icon ide fixe; they could <BR>&gt; get Claudia Schiffer to serve it personally and it would make little <BR>&gt; difference at this point....<BR><BR>&lt;tongue firmly in cheek&gt;<BR>Now will a Canadian program in that horrible VB I wonder??<BR>If Claudia Schiffer were the program manager?<BR>&lt;/tongue firmly in cheek&gt;<BR><BR><BR><BR>- --<BR>Rob<BR><BR>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:<BR>Radix lecti&nbsp;&nbsp; --&nbsp; Couch potato<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:11:19 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:28, Jeff wrote:<BR>&gt; You are probably right, I'm just not smart enough for the gearhead threads.<BR>&gt; In the end, then, it would seem reasonable, though not necessarily canon, to<BR>&gt; have a human species somewhere continuing the neanderthal line, or even<BR>&gt; taking a different route after H.erectus.<BR><BR>Homo neanderthalensis sapiens?<BR><BR>What would you imagine such an evolved form of H.neanderthal to have<BR>as characteristics?&nbsp; (thinking ObTrav).<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Rob D.<BR><BR>LINUX --- the choice of a GNU generation ---<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 06:09:48 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Introduction<BR><BR>At 04:07 AM 03/07/01 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Greetings All,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Just a quick post to say hello and introduce myself to the list. My name<BR>is Antaine, and I am 34 yo &gt;bloke from Australia. I have played Traveller<BR>since around 80-81 but due to a real time Military &gt;career, I have been<BR>"away" from gaming for quite a few years. I am just re-involving myself and<BR>&gt;having found Downport.com, followed my nose and wound up in mIRC and now<BR>here. (Thanks Jeff for your &gt;advice on the major-domo error) <BR><BR>Welcome!&nbsp; The list seems to be in a bit of a slump, so feel free to jump in<BR>at any time.<BR><BR>Now, the matter of your newbie essay..&nbsp; I've given out the last couple.<BR>Leonard?&nbsp; Isn't it your turn to assign one?<BR><BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR><BR>TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:52:38 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>on 7/3/01 6:52 am, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I've been a professional programmer since 1987,&nbsp; worked&nbsp; for&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; construction industry,&nbsp; automotive,&nbsp; telecoms,&nbsp; several&nbsp; merchant<BR>&gt; banks, software houses, and multinationals.&nbsp; My question is this:<BR>&gt; what's a "pointer"?<BR><BR>Simply C jargon for a call by reference rather than by value.<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 10:01:53 -0500<BR>From: "Walt Smith" &lt;firelock_ny@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3773<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; This is true, but you know, America earned this reputation.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; There are good beers in America NOW, mostly from microbreweries, but <BR>&gt;when<BR>&gt; &gt; I was a kid and first began to drink beer, the choices were pretty much:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Budweiser, Miller, Coors, Schaefer, and Generic.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;One word: Prohibition. Prohibition was the Great Extinction for breweries <BR>&gt;in the US; prior to Prohibition, beer was made and consumed locally, and <BR>&gt;there were few (if any) national brands.<BR><BR>Hmmm...I'm taking a class in Management at my workplace now,<BR>we just did a bit on the development of the US national<BR>brewing industry.&nbsp; According to our textbook, the US brewing<BR>industry was still made up of hundreds of small regional<BR>companies right up until 1960.&nbsp; A few successful ones (the makers<BR>of the beers listed above) started going after larger markets at<BR>about that time, buying out and closing down local breweries in<BR>other regions.&nbsp; They'd still market the local brand for a while,<BR>but they'd closely link it with their national name.<BR><BR>The critical transition period between "every city has a local<BR>brewing company" and "six nationwide companies have 75% of the beer<BR>market" seemed to be between 1960 and 1979, long after prohibition.<BR>Not that many breweries didn't go under when Prohibition reduced<BR>them to making non-alcoholic beer or alternate products, but our<BR>class readings seem to indicate that many more sprang up when the<BR>"Great Experiment" of Prohibition was ended.<BR><BR>Always interesting to see different views of history - an<BR>industry insider associating the change with Prohibition, a team<BR>of management analysts (the writers of our textbook) associating<BR>the change with other factors like the development of nationwide<BR>television networks (and the associated advertising markets).<BR><BR>Walt Smith<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:07:37 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>Gordon Hundley wrote:<BR>&gt; on 7/3/01 6:52 am, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; I've been a professional programmer since 1987,&nbsp; worked&nbsp; for&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; &gt; construction industry,&nbsp; automotive,&nbsp; telecoms,&nbsp; several&nbsp; merchant<BR>&gt; &gt; banks, software houses, and multinationals.&nbsp; My question is this:<BR>&gt; &gt; what's a "pointer"?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Simply C jargon for a call by reference rather than by value.<BR><BR>Good grief, is that all.&nbsp; Why do some people like C&nbsp; so&nbsp; much&nbsp; if<BR>you have to bother yourself with such trivial matters?<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 15:14:17 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>I grew up in a state with 3.2 beer also (Kansas). It took some adjustment <BR>when I moved to a state with real beer!<BR><BR>Just to show that it is possible to mess up a good thing: My wife was <BR>working in Oklahoma a few years ago. I went to visit her and, on the <BR>suggestion of some friends, we went out to a local microbrewery. We were <BR>expecting something on the order of what we have in Colorado and were very <BR>disappointed to discover that they only made 3.2 beer!<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:12, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; On top of that, I lived in a 3.2 beer state in my teens.&nbsp; If you've <BR>&gt;never<BR>&gt; &gt; experienced the misery that is 3.2 beer, count yourself very, very <BR>&gt;lucky.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I presume that this means something along the lines of "no beer is allowed <BR>&gt;more<BR>&gt;than 3.2% alcohol"? If so I sympathise - even weak modern NZ beers make 4%<BR>&gt;(some arsehole did this survey that concluded that we like our beer at 4.5% <BR>&gt;and<BR>&gt;under, and some even bigger arsehole listened).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;--<BR>&gt;"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 10:24:27 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>John Snead writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;According to that article, the two races lived side-by-side for close<BR>&gt;&gt;on 50,000 years, but there was absolutely no evidence that they<BR>&gt;&gt;interbred.<BR>&gt;&gt;A possible Sapien/Neanderthal cross was unearthed in a cave in<BR>&gt;&gt;Spain about the same time, but the individual in question was<BR>&gt;&gt;about 4 when he died, so his morphology was not well developed<BR>&gt;&gt;and his remains remain controversial.<BR>&gt;Actually IIRC within the last 4-6 months archeologists have found <BR>&gt;additional intermediate skeletons, including I believe at least one <BR>&gt;adult (or perhaps they merely found one adult skeleton).&nbsp; Ian likely <BR>&gt;knows more than I.<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I don't have time to follow developments on human evolution<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; very closely, and I hadn't heard about this.&nbsp; Sounds<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; interesting, but it will likely take some pretty compelling<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; evidence to settle this matter.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 06:52:08 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth <BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; Peter Newman writes:<BR>&gt; &gt;Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;No law requires them to sell you anything if they don't want to. And if<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;you can't pay them with something they want, they won't want to.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Are you trying to tell me that when you walk into a store with Imperial<BR>&gt; &gt;Credits and the shopkeeper refuses to accept them that the Imperial<BR>&gt; &gt;government is going to let them get away with it?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The question is moot, because the conditions doesn't exist. There IS trade<BR>&gt; between the planets of the Imperium and consequently people CAN buy stuff they<BR>&gt; want with Imperial credits.<BR><BR>You are evading the question. The question is not if buyers<BR>can buy with Imperial credits but if sellers must accept<BR>Imperial credits.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;That sort of thing was directly responsible for the fall of the Rule of Man<BR>&gt; &gt;and the Long Night. Do you honestly think that the Third Imperium is going<BR>&gt; &gt;to allow it?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I'm quite sure the Imperium couldn't care less if Eneri Q. <BR>&gt; Public accepts Crimps or not. They might get shirty if a <BR>&gt; sector branch of an Imperial bank refused to honor a draft.<BR><BR>What if Eneri Q Public is domain manager for a mega corporation<BR>and he (after a Vilani style consensus is achieved) announces<BR>that they will no longer accept CrImps?<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;The only way the Imperium can get anything useful from a world is to spend<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;those credits on stuff that can be physically lifted off the planetary<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;surface and moved elsewhere.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;The most expensive goods the Imperium uses are probably capital class<BR>&gt; &gt;starships. Canon establishes that many types of starships are built at<BR>&gt; &gt;many locations. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; What's your point? If that isn't an example of the Imperium taking its taxes<BR>&gt; out in kind then I don't know what is.<BR><BR>I'm asserting that the most expensive thing they buy can lift <BR>itself off of a planetary surface. Thus it need not be "physically <BR>lifted off the planetary surface and moved elsewhere" but rather<BR>it transports itself.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;The way I see it the Imperium demands that people accept Imperial credits.<BR>&gt; &gt;When they want something they buy it on location, hire someone to deliver it,<BR>&gt; &gt;or transport it themselves in their own (typically military) starships that<BR>&gt; &gt;they purchased using Imperial Credits or which they had built by yard crew<BR>&gt; &gt;paid in Imperial credits.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In other words, they buy goods and transport them off-world. Just as I said.<BR><BR>No. I am asserting that they are more likely to have them<BR>transported off world than to transport them off world themselves.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;The Imperial credit is a symbol of the idea of the Imperium. When you reject<BR>&gt; &gt;the credit you are rejecting the Imperium. Yes, of course, the Imperial credit<BR>&gt; &gt;is intrinsically nothing more than pretty extruded plastic with cunning anti<BR>&gt; &gt;counterfeiting measures but the common acceptance of the Imperial credit is<BR>&gt; &gt;one of the key reasons for the creation of the Imperium in the first place (to<BR>&gt; &gt;promote trade, which common currencies do).<BR><BR>&gt; And that trade is how the wealth is transferred from planet to planet. The<BR>&gt; exchange of Crimps is merely a way to keep score. A tally. Promisory notes.<BR><BR>No because the Imperial Credit can be, and is, used for internal<BR>commerce as well as external commerce. Thus the Imperial Credit<BR>serves as a medium of exchange as well.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;But all that gets them is a promisory note. You can't eat a promisory note,<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;you can't use it to fuel your starships and you can't use it to pay someone<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;on the next planet over _unless_ there is some trade between the two planets.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;If the next planet over will not accept your Imperial credits they are saying<BR>&gt; &gt;that they do not believe that the Imperium is good for the debt. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; And if they can't use those credit to buy stuff on another planet then the<BR>&gt; Imperium is not good for the debt. You're arguing in circles. The reason people<BR>&gt; accept Crimps is precisely because they know they CAN buy stuff from other<BR>&gt; worlds with it. If they couldn't, they wouldn't accept them.<BR><BR>Not exactly. What I am asserting is that because the Imperium<BR>is willing to kill people who don't accept the Imperial credit<BR>this provides an incentive for people to accept the Imperial<BR>credit. Even people who are willing to risk being killed will<BR>accept the credit because they know that others will accept<BR>it or risk being killed.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;For a member world to say that is clearly rebellious. There is a very good<BR>&gt; &gt;reason why the Imperial navy has weapons of mass destruction and it is not<BR>&gt; &gt;the Zhodani. <BR>&gt; &gt;Read your MT.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In the interest of keeping this civil I'll refrain from replying to this the<BR>&gt; way it so richly deserves.<BR><BR>If, as usual, you're going to be snide about this I may as well <BR>note that I've rarely known you to be civil and this is not one <BR>of those times. You constantly project the patronizing attitude <BR>that you know Traveller better than others. Much of the time your <BR>belief is correct but there are people [1] who know it as well and <BR>merely interpret it differently.<BR><BR>MT canon clearly establishes that the Imperial Navy did use<BR>it's weapons on its people. It establishes that at least<BR>billions of people died as a result. Canon does not establish<BR>that billions died in the Frontier Wars. Therefore the Imperial Navy<BR>is a greater threat to the Imperium than the Zhodani Consulate<BR>is. <BR><BR>[1] Which group I am not _necessarily_ asserting I belong to.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:45:23 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Astrogation design<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Paul Campbell<BR>&gt; Sent: 06 March 2001 18:57<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Astrogation design<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>[snip]<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This is good at the level where differences occur at the<BR>&gt; local level,<BR>&gt; and especially when the changes are in 'free text' fields<BR>&gt; as per your<BR>&gt; example.&nbsp; Problems arise when you start to develop<BR>&gt; Untilites that need<BR>&gt; to traverse this universe autonomously.&nbsp; Given two<BR>&gt; differing profiles<BR>&gt; for a star system which one do you use?<BR>&gt;<BR>Unfortunately, when you are designing a sort of "free-for-all"<BR>transport data structure that can be plugged in to dozens of different<BR>applications, that is exactly the problem you will hit. What I have<BR>done so far assumes (and even this much may be wrong, which is why I<BR>posted it) that the _physical_ details - in this case just the<BR>location of the sector - will be the same for all the game settings<BR>and software and that just the descriptions (if they are used by<BR>particular applications) might vary. I managed that by setting the<BR>canon/T4/CT flags up for the text and allowed the "local" option for<BR>those that didn't fit.<BR><BR>You are dead right though - "local" is not enough as it stands. An<BR>extra, optional, tag is needed to say what the local rules apply to.<BR>I'll add that as well and it should mean that any application can<BR>select just the data it needs to run for the particular game setting<BR>being dealt with.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Personally I'm not convinced either is better of worse from a<BR>&gt; modelling point of view.&nbsp; However programatically I would prefer the<BR>&gt; parallel universes as they are easier to seperate at an early stage.<BR>&gt; And allow multiple unrelated milieus to reside safely<BR>&gt; within the same<BR>&gt; database.&nbsp; The benefits of this are demonstrated by Galactic.<BR>&gt;<BR>Oh my word yes - it would probably be possible to actually design an<BR>application to traverse and calculate based on the data in the XML,<BR>but I wouldn't like to do it personally. The whole idea is to have an<BR>XML structure that can be used to import and export data from an<BR>application so that it can be used by others. Its a data-sharing tool,<BR>not an application database.<BR><BR>Thanks for the feedback on this stage. I'll make the change to the<BR>"local" flag, add a second layer for subsectors and then start looking<BR>at the really tricky one...systems...after I post the updated XML.<BR>When I add subsectors, by the way, I will do it so that a document can<BR>contain either one or more sectors, one or more subsectors, or one or<BR>more sectors (which include one or more subsectors) or one or more<BR>sectors (which include pointers to one or more subsectors in the same<BR>or a different document). That should allow any level of detail or<BR>simplification on the XML.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:14:06 +0100<BR>From: Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>"Michael R. Blair" wrote:<BR>&gt; Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned that<BR>&gt; dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have been<BR>&gt; associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.<BR>&gt; To me it sounds as if the two species have almost evolved in parallel or<BR>&gt; symbiosis.<BR><BR>Or the development of the two species were overseen by the same scientists.<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:17:49 +0100<BR>From: Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Introduction<BR><BR>Douglas Berry wrote:<BR>&gt; Now, the matter of your newbie essay..&nbsp; I've given out the last couple.<BR>&gt; Leonard?&nbsp; Isn't it your turn to assign one?<BR><BR>I have a suggestion for an essay subject:<BR><BR>Describe the impact that widely available nanotechnology would have on the<BR>Official Traveller Universe.<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:19:53 +0100<BR>From: Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Location of QSDS and SSDS<BR><BR>John Fox wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am trying to get ahold of a copy of the Quick Starship Design Systema nd<BR>&gt; the S Starship Design System.&nbsp; Does anyone know where they are located? And if<BR>&gt; so could you send the info to me?<BR><BR>QSDS:&nbsp; Marc Miller's Traveller core rulebook (T4)<BR><BR>SSDS:&nbsp; Starships (supplement for T4)<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:39:28 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Location of QSDS and SSDS<BR><BR>On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>&gt; John Fox wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am trying to get ahold of a copy of the Quick Starship Design Systema nd<BR>&gt; &gt; the S Starship Design System.&nbsp; Does anyone know where they are located? And if<BR>&gt; &gt; so could you send the info to me?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; QSDS:&nbsp; Marc Miller's Traveller core rulebook (T4)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; SSDS:&nbsp; Starships (supplement for T4)<BR><BR>As I understand it, the versions posted online are updated/corrected and<BR>therefore better.&nbsp; Plus, you don't have to go looking for out-of-print<BR>books.&nbsp; Try looking in the directory:<BR>http://traveller.mu.org/archive/T4/<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Greg Kettler<BR><BR>"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you<BR>may not actually need an explicit loop exit.&nbsp; The loop will be terminated<BR>automatically at the appropriate moment."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 11:44:24 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens (long)<BR><BR>Jeff writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;Do the fruit flies show as much variation among their species as<BR>&gt;&gt;neanderthals and modern man do as subspecies?<BR>&gt;That depends on what you mean by variation.&nbsp; A very large<BR>&gt;can of several species of worms.&nbsp; :)<BR>&gt;Oh. Well, I guess I mean a fairly lay definition. By that, are there are<BR>&gt;clear and obvious differences that can be appreciated in the same way as may<BR>&gt;seperate modern humans and neanderthals.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Being humans, we tend to be highly sensitive to subtle<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; variations between humans.&nbsp; To most people, one fruit fly<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; looks much like another, but the fruit flies can detect the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; difference.&nbsp; There really is no objective way to compare<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the differences among fruit flies with the differences<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; between H. sapiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalis,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; other than that (if neanderthalis is indeed a subspecies)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the fruit flies are more different taxonomically.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Remember: time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; banana.<BR><BR>&gt;My point, and this ties into the<BR>&gt;taxonomic accuracy bit, that even though we and neanderthal are only<BR>&gt;subspecies to each other, we seem to display significant differences.<BR>&gt;If the fruitflies species do not vary to the same degree, then claiming a<BR>&gt;more significant rate of change for the fruitflies based solely on the<BR>&gt;technical classification of those new species, fails to measure the<BR>&gt;actual changes.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; First, I didn't claim "a more significant rate of change for the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; fruitflies", only a higher rate of speciation.&nbsp; This was meant to<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; contribute to the discussion of how long it would take for<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; speciation in humans.&nbsp; The issue of evolutionary changes is<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; not exactly the same, though obviously some changes have to<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; occur to have speciation.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The quantification of change is more difficult than you might<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; imagine.&nbsp; Are a 100 g rat and a 400 g rat (which are identicle<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in shape and other features) more different than a 100 g rat<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; with a tail and a 100 g rat with no tail?&nbsp; Are a rat with a tail<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and a rat with no tail more different than a rat with a short<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; tail plus short legs and a rat with a long tail plus long legs?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Are a rat with short legs and a rat with long legs more<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; different than a rat with insulin type X and a rat with insulin<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type Y?&nbsp; Are a rat with insulin type X and a rat with insulin<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type Y more different than a rat that is attracted to light and<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a rat that is afraid of light?&nbsp; These are questions without<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; objective answers (AFAICT).<BR><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Why should there be more physical change?&nbsp; You have<BR>&gt;&gt;argued that it is possible that there could be significant<BR>&gt;&gt;physical changes, but have given no reasons to expect<BR>&gt;&gt;physical changes greater than those observed on Terra.<BR>&gt;&gt;Nor it is necessarily true (AFAIK) that Zhodanis are no<BR>&gt;&gt;more different from Vilani than eskimos are from<BR>&gt;&gt;bushmen.<BR>&gt;I would expect more differences because the species the ancients took sprout<BR>&gt;two major decendant lines here on earth. Now, while I know that does not<BR>&gt;prove nor even imply that the transplanted populations should drift, at the<BR>&gt;same time, given the variety of conditions, as well as the significant time<BR>&gt;allowances, that some form of greater change should have been observed.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (First, see above discussion on quantifying differences.)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Greater than is found on earth, quite possibly.&nbsp; Greater than is<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; found in the 3I, possibly, but not necessarily.&nbsp; Are Zhodanis more<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; different from Vilani than archaic and modern H. sapiens, I don't<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; know.<BR><BR>&gt;Thus, I believe that humaniti should display more variation then among<BR>&gt;modern terran races for the following reasons.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I agree that humaniti could easily display more variation than<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; among modern Terran races (keeping in mind the limitations<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to the concept of "more variation").&nbsp; I have not intentionally argued<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; against this proposition.<BR><BR>&lt;snipped and pasted below&gt;<BR>&gt;2) The range of enviornmental conditions (ecology, gravity, temperature,<BR>&gt;and so on) of the forty something transplanted people should be AT LEAST as<BR>&gt;varied as any climate conditions on earth. (Not necessary that each<BR>&gt;population was exposed to varied enviornments like here on earth, but that<BR>&gt;the forty something situations should all display significant differences<BR>&gt;between each other.) Neanderthals had significant adaptations to their<BR>&gt;enviornment, so why not the rest of transplanted humaniti?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On the other hand, if modern humans on Terra have evolved to be<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the way we are, why shouldn't humans on a similar world evolve the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; same way?&nbsp; As I pointed out a while back, substantial differences<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in gravity would lead to substantial changes, a different class of<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; star would lead to the evolution of different proteins in the eye.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; There may be "races" of humaniti out there that are superficially<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; or more subtly different, depending on how different were the worlds<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; on which they were seeded.&nbsp; It does not follow that they will be<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; separate species, nor is it necessary (within the framework of<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Traveller) to conclude that the various "races" of humaniti must<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be more different than some benchmark.<BR><BR>&gt;1) 300,000 years is much more time then current racial populations have<BR>&gt;been developing. (After all, 300,000 there were no modern people even.)<BR>&gt;3) The starting point, archaic Homo sapiens, does infact give rise to at<BR>&gt;least two significantly different subspecies. This is only on earth, and<BR>&gt;within the 300,000 year range. It would seem reasonable to assert that some<BR>&gt;transplanted population could take another route.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I put these together as they seem to be the same point.&nbsp; If you<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; assume that human evolution has been driven by genetic drift<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; over the past 300,000 years, then this argument would hold<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; more force.&nbsp; Even so, I'm not sure that H. aspiens zhodotlas<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Zhodani) and Homo sapiens bilandin (Vilani) are any less<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; different than H. aspiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalis.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On the other hand, one might argue that natural selection has<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; been the dominant force in shaping (or maintaining) human<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; traits since H. erectus.&nbsp; If this is the case, then we might<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; humans from Terra-like worlds to be remarkably similar, given<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that most selective on these worlds might be very similar to<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; what they are here.&nbsp; Naturally, one can argue that the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; conditions will be very different, in which case more differences<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; would tend to emerge.&nbsp; YMMV.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 16:52:50 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>OBTrav: "Rum Running" may be very much alive in the Traveller Universe if <BR>the law level of a world prohibits alcohol or restricts the alcohol content. <BR>Having concentrates makes the process easier.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I grew up in a state with 3.2 beer also (Kansas). It took some adjustment<BR>&gt;when I moved to a state with real beer!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Just to show that it is possible to mess up a good thing: My wife was<BR>&gt;working in Oklahoma a few years ago. I went to visit her and, on the<BR>&gt;suggestion of some friends, we went out to a local microbrewery. We were<BR>&gt;expecting something on the order of what we have in Colorado and were very<BR>&gt;disappointed to discover that they only made 3.2 beer!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;John<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:12, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; On top of that, I lived in a 3.2 beer state in my teens.&nbsp; If you've<BR>&gt;&gt;never<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; experienced the misery that is 3.2 beer, count yourself very, very<BR>&gt;&gt;lucky.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:09:56 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: sapiens (long)<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Do the fruit flies show as much variation among their species as<BR>&gt;&gt;neanderthals and modern man do as subspecies?<BR>&gt;That depends on what you mean by variation.&nbsp; A very large<BR>&gt;can of several species of worms.&nbsp; :)<BR>&gt;Oh. Well, I guess I mean a fairly lay definition. By that, are there are<BR>&gt;clear and obvious differences that can be appreciated in the same way as <BR>&gt;may<BR>&gt;seperate modern humans and neanderthals.<BR><BR>Another example of a species with a very wide range of variations is the dog <BR>(Canis familiaris). Of course, there was an agent encouraging the <BR>variations, us instead of the Ancients. In spite of the wide variations, <BR>dogs are interfertile, although certain crosses can cause problems due <BR>mostly to size. The difference between the breeds of dogs are far more <BR>extreme than between the human races in Traveller. (I live with two <BR>extremes: an 8-pound Maltese and two 140-pound Great Pyrenees.) I believe <BR>that there are significant genetic differences between wolves and dogs, but <BR>they are still interfertile.<BR><BR>John<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3778<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (rly-yh04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.36]) by air-yh05.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Mar 2001 12:13:00 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Mar 2001 12:12:38 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA99483;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:11:38 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:10:29 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id MAA99399<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:10:29 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:10:29 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103071710.MAA99399@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3778<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, March 7 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3779<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Time shortage<BR>RE: Time shortage<BR>re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Attn: Craig Berry<BR>Re: Time shortage<BR>Re: [still way off topic] License to Program<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>RE: Time shortage<BR>Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR>Re: Cordite loops<BR>Re: [still way off topic] License to Program<BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Horosho/Glisten added to spinwardmarches.com<BR>Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR>Programming in the 3I Re: License to Program<BR>Re: Programming in the 3I Re: License to Program<BR>Scout Brew....<BR>RE: Introduction<BR>RE: dog races/subspecies<BR>RE: Cordite loops<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR>Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:53:19 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Time shortage<BR><BR>I thought I'd let folks know that I'm likely to be spending a lot less<BR>time reading the list for at least a while. <BR><BR>I'm afraid I've found someone^H^H^Hthing more interesting to occupy my<BR>time. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>I'll still be looking in, but I'm going to be skipping a *lot* of stuff.<BR>Sorry, but a guy has to have his priorities straight. :-)<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:23:43 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Time shortage<BR><BR>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G}) wrote:<BR>&gt; I thought I'd let folks know that I'm likely to be spending a<BR>&gt; lot less time reading the list for at least a while. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I'm afraid I've found someone^H^H^Hthing more interesting to<BR>&gt; occupy my time. &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I'll still be looking in, but I'm going to be skipping a *lot*<BR>&gt; of stuff.<BR>&gt; Sorry, but a guy has to have his priorities straight. :-)<BR><BR>Surely you're missing something&nbsp; here.&nbsp; Relationships&nbsp; are&nbsp; about<BR>sharing.&nbsp; Educate this other person in the ways of Traveller&nbsp; and<BR>then you can both share the joy of reading the TML together.&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:32:55 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Michael R. Blair" &lt;michael@carrickfergus.schoolzone.co.uk&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned that<BR>&gt;dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have been<BR>&gt;associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.<BR><BR>One of my family's dogs was fond of remarking that if humans did not<BR>already exist, dogs would have had to invent them.&nbsp; <BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:21:55 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Attn: Craig Berry<BR><BR>Your email address is bouncing on me, please contact as soon as is<BR>convenient.<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:23:04 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Time shortage<BR><BR>At 08:53 AM 03/07/01 PST, you wrote:<BR>&gt;I thought I'd let folks know that I'm likely to be spending a lot less<BR>&gt;time reading the list for at least a while. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I'm afraid I've found someone^H^H^Hthing more interesting to occupy my<BR>&gt;time. &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I'll still be looking in, but I'm going to be skipping a *lot* of stuff.<BR>&gt;Sorry, but a guy has to have his priorities straight. :-)<BR><BR>As the Leonard Erickson Breeding Program waits in hushed anticipation...<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:22:00 -0800<BR>From: Russell Bornschlegel &lt;kaleja@estarcion.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [still way off topic] License to Program<BR><BR>Peter Trevor wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Pointer education is like sex education -- you can pretend the<BR>&gt; &gt; subject doesn't exist, but the kids are going to be exposed to<BR>&gt; &gt; it eventually.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I've been a professional programmer since 1987,&nbsp; worked&nbsp; for&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; construction industry,&nbsp; automotive,&nbsp; telecoms,&nbsp; several&nbsp; merchant<BR>&gt; banks, software houses, and multinationals.&nbsp; My question is this:<BR>&gt; what's a "pointer"?<BR><BR>Assuming you're being serious, a pointer is a variable which stores<BR>a memory address, usually the address of another variable or data<BR>object. I'm largely familiar with pointers from the C language, <BR>though many Pascal dialects have pointers. More modern languages <BR>provide references, which are similar to pointers though usually <BR>"safer", if less flexible. <BR><BR>If you have a structure or record in memory, and you wish to, for <BR>example, tell some subroutine to operate on a given structure/record, <BR>you may create a pointer to that structure/record, pass the pointer<BR>to the subroutine, and let the subroutine do its thing, which is <BR>in general a cheaper operation than copying the structure/record <BR>on entry and exit to the subroutine.<BR><BR>This sort of pointer operation is extremely common in the C language.<BR>Some other languages have more elegant ways to do similar things,<BR>and some languages don't have any equivalent. While it appears very<BR>clumsy to those who are used to other methods, the fact is that the<BR>underlying hardware frequently uses pointers (in the form of address<BR>registers), and so the way C does it is "close to the machine"; a <BR>programmer experienced in both C and assembly language is often <BR>very aware of what the assembly version of the code is going to look<BR>like even as it's being written.<BR><BR>There. You have now learned about pointers "on the street". Now <BR>you can educate me. What language/languages have you been using? <BR>How do those languages best allow you to write a single subroutine <BR>to manipulate similarly-structured records which come from different<BR>sources? <BR><BR>- -Russell B<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:36:18 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:12, Douglas Berry wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/307ale.htm<BR><BR>307 Ale:&nbsp; the quintessential American beer.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:15:33 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>&gt;on 7/3/01 6:52 am, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; I've been a professional programmer since 1987,&nbsp; worked&nbsp; for&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; &gt; construction industry,&nbsp; automotive,&nbsp; telecoms,&nbsp; several&nbsp; merchant<BR>&gt; &gt; banks, software houses, and multinationals.&nbsp; My question is this:<BR>&gt; &gt; what's a "pointer"?<BR><BR>My experience with programming pointers was in passing variables between <BR>FORTRAN programs and assembly or machine language subroutines. The pointers <BR>provided a link to the address of the passed value.<BR><BR>I've noticed that FORTRAN has not even been mentioned in the discussions of <BR>programming languages. I hope I'm not starting another round of debate. <BR>There is still a surprising amount of FORTRAN code lurking in technical <BR>applications.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:35:11 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>They are both Excellent Graphics. and I had to sit and think last night. It<BR>is a tough choice.<BR><BR>That said I still Like Marks the best. And I would like to use Marks on the<BR>Ship that Jesse is going to slap together us. I would like to use both<BR>graphics on the web page if allowed. I am thinking that and the strips John<BR>has provided will help me create a little Polynesian feel.<BR><BR>Also Jesse I had a change of heart on the Strips on the ship if you can make<BR>the strips match the flowers that are being thrown into the air i would<BR>appreciate it.<BR><BR>Sort ofa&nbsp; side note the Four flowers being thrown up will represent the 4<BR>players in the group. it is almost as is Mark were Psycic or something.<BR><BR>Also would like to put a note on our web pages with thanks to all of you for<BR>your work and links to any web sites you may have.<BR><BR>I would like to say again Johns work was excellent also and the decision was<BR>extremly hard.<BR><BR>And I Live in Palo Alto So those of you who are in SF lets do dinner 8)<BR><BR>Hasta <BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: John Lambert [mailto:hovtej@hotmail.com]<BR>Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 11:56 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR><BR>My attempt at the nose art for the Mahina Tiare is done, flowers and all. It<BR><BR>is posted at:<BR>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/NoseArt.htm<BR><BR>Bill, thanks again for the interesting project.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:49:52 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>&gt; Also Jesse I had a change of heart on the Strips on the ship if<BR>&gt; you can make<BR>&gt; the strips match the flowers that are being thrown into the air i would<BR>&gt; appreciate it.<BR><BR><BR>Actually, that's what I was planning on ;)&nbsp; I got the font from John last<BR>night (or was it the night before...) so I'll be able to work on this soon.<BR>I need to finish something for SJG &amp; BITS first, so it'll be about a week<BR>before I have a chance to do it.<BR><BR>Best,<BR>Jesse<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:50:52 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Time shortage<BR><BR>On 7 Mar 2001, at 17:23, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G}) wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; I thought I'd let folks know that I'm likely to be spending a<BR>&gt; &gt; lot less time reading the list for at least a while. <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; I'm afraid I've found someone^H^H^Hthing more interesting to<BR>&gt; &gt; occupy my time. &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; I'll still be looking in, but I'm going to be skipping a *lot*<BR>&gt; &gt; of stuff.<BR>&gt; &gt; Sorry, but a guy has to have his priorities straight. :-)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Surely you're missing something&nbsp; here.&nbsp; Relationships&nbsp; are&nbsp; about<BR>&gt; sharing.&nbsp; Educate this other person in the ways of Traveller&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; then you can both share the joy of reading the TML together.&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>Or divide up the daily posting between you, then you have something<BR>to discuss over dinner.&nbsp; :)<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Rob D.<BR><BR>It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.<BR>It is by the beans of Java that my thoughts acquire speed.<BR>My hands begin to shake.&nbsp; The shakes are a warning.<BR>It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.<BR>- -- unknown<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:55:47 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Hello Anthony,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Forward doesn't assume that an antimatter containment system weighs more<BR>&gt; than what David Pulver hypothesized, he assumes it will be *less* than what<BR>&gt; David suggests.<BR><BR>I figured he did, I just was curious what that efficiency he gave.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The shuttlecraft moved on to the other side of the thick metal disk about<BR>&gt; 3 meters in diameter.&nbsp; It was fifteen centimeters thick at the center and<BR>&gt; tapered down to a few centimeters thick at the rim.&nbsp; Right in back of the<BR>&gt; metal disk was a large rectangle about as big as a kitchen refrigerator.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; "The big metal Disk is the radiation shield, while the rectangular box on<BR>&gt; the other side is the antimatter storage container"<BR><BR>Which unfortunately doesn't tell me what the total storage is, since we don't<BR>know either the mass (probably about a ton, if its refrigerator sized) or<BR>the total endurance.&nbsp; With TL 9 antimatter storage, endurance is ~20 minutes,<BR>which is not too bad.&nbsp; I suspect he was wanting at least 10x that endurance,<BR>but that quote doesn't tell me.&nbsp; In any case, a lot of Forward's technology<BR>is well above what GURPS calls TL 9, a TL 11 high-cap antimatter bay<BR>would hold 18 hours of fuel, which is plenty.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Me?&nbsp; I don't know enough about physics one way or another to comment on<BR>&gt; Forward's "flights of fantasy" or wild optimism &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; What I will say<BR>&gt; however, is that it seems odd that in GURPS VEHICLES, antimatter requires<BR>&gt; containment systems that are far heavier than fusion power plants (on a<BR>&gt; weight per cubic volume basis).&nbsp; At the very least, I'd have expected that<BR>&gt; antimatter containment systems would be at worst, as heavy as fusion<BR>&gt; plants, not heavier!<BR><BR>Um...huh?&nbsp; The two problems aren't even related.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 07:57:32 +1300<BR>From: "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loops<BR><BR>On 7 Mar 2001, at 12:23, Megan Robertson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; In-Reply-To: &lt;B6CB1E21.49A5%drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Greetings dear hearts.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Det/prima-cord is very useful... but quite hard to get hold of :-(<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Makes good cutting charges for things like building entry. If you are <BR>&gt; doing house clearance, the standard method is NOT to go in by the door - <BR>&gt; the enemy sort of expect that. So you use a frame charge which is <BR>&gt; basically prima-cord on a square wood frame (pre-prepared) to make a <BR>&gt; 'mousehole' through which you first post a couple of grenades and then <BR>&gt; effect your entry.<BR><BR>Me, I'm from the school of thought that the Russian appear to belong to, too. <BR>The best way to clear a house is with a battery of howizters.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 12:19:54 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [still way off topic] License to Program<BR><BR>Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; If you have a structure or record in memory, and you wish to, for <BR>&gt; example, tell some subroutine to operate on a given structure/record, <BR>&gt; you may create a pointer to that structure/record, pass the pointer<BR>&gt; to the subroutine, and let the subroutine do its thing, which is <BR>&gt; in general a cheaper operation than copying the structure/record <BR>&gt; on entry and exit to the subroutine.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>"Cheaper" in terms of memory and CPU usage, but hardly cheaper in economic terms of producing software. Chasing bugs in pointers is one of the biggest PITA's, and waster of programmer time that have ever come from that mostrosity known as 'C'.<BR><BR>Passing by reference, and allowing your compiler to keep track of the actual state of memory will ALWAYS pay off at debugging time.<BR><BR>A structured language may take up more memory and cpu cycles, but in the long run, what costs is not that but programming and debugging time.<BR><BR><BR>I saw a button once, "'C', a macro assembler cleverly disguised as a higher language."<BR><BR>If you're after the last ounce of speed, memory utilization, and efficiency, by all means get down to the silicon and program there. &gt;95%% of all the applications out there don't need such performance, and indeed, using them in these programs is on the order of dropping a Formula 1 powertrain into your family car.<BR><BR>Sure you'll get improved performace, but at the cost of having to rebuild your engine every 100 miles...<BR><BR>By the time of the 3I, in fact, I really doubt that assembler, pointers, or any of this will really latter anymore; in fact for 'proven' programs you _can't_ use languages that let you anywhere near the hardware, as there's far too much room for introducing errors.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 12:28:37 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>Michael R. Blair wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned that<BR>&gt; dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have been<BR>&gt; associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.<BR>&gt; To me it sounds as if the two species have almost evolved in parallel or<BR>&gt; symbiosis.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Michael R. Blair<BR><BR>Yeah, and the scientist who has found the greatest evidence for <BR>canid-hominid association is of the opinion that dogs have molded humans <BR>as much as humans have molded dogs, that we are much more pack-like than <BR>we would otherwise be.<BR><BR>Of coure my dogs just look at me, grin, and say 'Duh!' but, we <BR>two-footers are sometimes slow to catch on.<BR><BR>After all who does all the work, and who gets to laze about all day <BR>chasing cats and balls...;-P<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:37:14 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Horosho/Glisten added to spinwardmarches.com<BR><BR>I have added most of the data provided from Horosho/Glisten to<BR>http://www.spinwardmarches.com.<BR><BR>If Michael Cessna would please take a look and comment, I'd appreciate it.<BR><BR>Thanks, Tod<BR>- ----<BR>When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.<BR>- ----<BR>Tod Glenn<BR>webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>http://www.travellerguns.com<BR>http://www.spinwardmarches.com<BR>http://www.solsec.org<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 12:38:43 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>Stephen Tempest wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt; writes:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Actually, there are people who claim exactly that.&nbsp; Unfortunately,<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; terms like "subspecies" carry emotional luggage.&nbsp; I believe that<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "subspecies" is more difficult to define than species, but where<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; humans are involved there are even more complications.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Total layman's question:&nbsp; are the different breeds of dog, like<BR>&gt; chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?<BR><BR>They're not even considered 'races'; all of em are Canis familiaris, or depending on who you talk to, Canis lupus familiaris, as some people don't distiguish between dogs and wolves on a species level and even the subspecies designation is more a cultural thing on the part of the humans than a taxonomical difference.<BR><BR>For that matter coyotes (Canis atrox (?)) are also probably the same species, as they're completely interfertile. In fact, aside from looks, the single largest difference between dogs, coyotes and wolves is that dogs have been bred to remain in the puppy stage of development; domestication seems to do this to canids. In Russia they introduced a silver fox domestication program to breed foxes amenable to fur farming. They got their 'domesticated' fox. It also displays a juvenile coat and behavior patterns throughout it's life, making it useless for the fur industry (not the behavior, but the coat.)<BR><BR>Dogs, apparently, have very plastic genome, and in the wild turn out to be shorter haired dogs, about 35-40 pounds in weight, with upright, pointed ears. In fact, aside from the coyotes bushy tail, outbred feral dogs end up looking remarkably like coyotes.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:51:50 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Programming in the 3I Re: License to Program<BR><BR>On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; By the time of the 3I, in fact, I really doubt that assembler, pointers,<BR>&gt; or any of this will really latter anymore; in fact for 'proven' programs<BR>&gt;you <BR>&gt;_can't_ use languages that let you anywhere near the hardware, as there's<BR>&gt;far <BR>&gt;too much room for introducing errors.<BR><BR>Hmm... if I'm not mistaken, this thread finally has an ObTrav.&nbsp; Of course,<BR>the most interesting idea about programming in the future I've seen<BR>appears in Vernor Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky.&nbsp; In that society, you<BR>don't just have programmers; you have "programmer-archeologists," whose<BR>job it is to mine a few millenia's worth of archived code for the solution<BR>to your problem.&nbsp; In all that time, someone must have had to solve a<BR>similar one.<BR>Of course, my favorite title in that book is still "programmer-at-arms."<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Greg Kettler<BR><BR>"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you<BR>may not actually need an explicit loop exit.&nbsp; The loop will be terminated<BR>automatically at the appropriate moment."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:59:21 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Programming in the 3I Re: License to Program<BR><BR>On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; By the time of the 3I, in fact, I really doubt that assembler, pointers,<BR>&gt; or any of this will really latter anymore; in fact for 'proven' programs you <BR>&gt; _can't_ use languages that let you anywhere near the hardware, as there's<BR>&gt; far too much room for introducing errors.<BR><BR>Well, some knowledge of low-level coding will always be necessary, even if <BR>the low-level code is all machine-written.&nbsp; You need to understand the low<BR>level stuff to write a compiler, though you don't need to actually write<BR>any low level code to write a compiler.&nbsp; You also, obviously, need to <BR>understand the low level stuff to create new hardware.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:01:32 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Scout Brew....<BR><BR>Ok this is a question for the mailing list. dont know if anyone would be<BR>interesed besides me but i thought i would throw it out.<BR><BR>There is an Internet company out there that will allow you to get Tshirts<BR>made. you can set the price of them at cost so there is no profit made of<BR>the sale of the tshirts. it takes a few mins to set up and they can produce<BR>the shrits the next day.<BR><BR>I dont know if anyone besides me would be interested in the scout brew<BR>tshirt but this is something to think about. If people are interested ill<BR>forward the info so mark can go out and set it up.<BR><BR>some of the products you can get your image on are Mugs, Mouse pads,<BR>tshirts, sweat shirts, and baby doll shirts. if anyone wants to see what im<BR>talking about you can go to WWW.mr-bandwidth.com/aegiswolves/ and look under<BR>merchandise. the items sold there are priced at 1 dollar over cost for<BR>charity. but again they can be priced at cost.<BR><BR>Anyway I hope i dont get stoned. I just think it would be a blast to have a<BR>"Scout Brew" T-Shirt<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 15:15:00 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Introduction<BR><BR>Antaine writes:<BR>&gt;Greetings All,<BR>&gt;Just a quick post to say hello and introduce myself to the list. My<BR>&gt;name is Antaine, and I am 34 yo bloke from Australia. I have played<BR>&gt;Traveller since around 80-81 but due to a real time Military career, I<BR>&gt;have been "away" from gaming for quite a few years. I am just re-<BR>&gt;involving myself and having found Downport.com, followed my nose<BR>&gt;and wound up in mIRC and now here. (Thanks Jeff for your advice on<BR>&gt;the major-domo error) <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Welcome to the TML!&nbsp; You will likely find interesting, informative<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; entertaining and occasionaly frustrating.&nbsp; If you don't want any<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; trouble, just don't say the "P" word.&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>&gt;I am a CT player and once I am back into the groove so to speak, I'll<BR>&gt;be running a game or two. I have to face the huge challenge now of<BR>&gt;finding some people for face to face gaming. Any Aussies in NSW<BR>&gt;feel free to e-mail me off-list and maybe we can arrange something.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Allright!&nbsp; Another True Believer.<BR><BR>&gt;For the rest on the list, I usually post only if I have something to say<BR>&gt;or a question to ask, but hope to get to know a few fellow Sophonts<BR>&gt;around the globe.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Very nice to make your aquaintance.<BR><BR>:)<BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 15:19:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: dog races/subspecies<BR><BR>Stephen writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;Actually, there are people who claim exactly that.&nbsp; Unfortunately,<BR>&gt;&gt;terms like "subspecies" carry emotional luggage.&nbsp; I believe that<BR>&gt;&gt;"subspecies" is more difficult to define than species, but where<BR>&gt;&gt;humans are involved there are even more complications.<BR>&gt;Total layman's question:&nbsp; are the different breeds of dog, like<BR>&gt;chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?<BR>&gt;ObTrav:&nbsp; the possibility of subspecies of Vargr, naturally...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Neither, they are breeds.&nbsp; ;)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; There is no universal definition of species, and the various<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; subdivisions of species are even less certain.&nbsp; Subspecies,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; races, breeds, varieties, phases, populations, forms,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; regional types... it is pretty nebulous.&nbsp; Mostly they are<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; members of the same species that may be distinguished<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; by shared traits that are different from others of that<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; species.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:35:11 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Cordite loops<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Det/prima-cord is very useful... but quite hard to get hold of :-(<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Makes good cutting charges for things like building entry. If you are <BR>&gt;&gt; doing house clearance, the standard method is NOT to go in by the door - <BR>&gt;&gt; the enemy sort of expect that. So you use a frame charge which is <BR>&gt;&gt; basically prima-cord on a square wood frame (pre-prepared) to make a <BR>&gt;&gt; 'mousehole' through which you first post a couple of grenades and then <BR>&gt;&gt; effect your entry.<BR><BR>&gt;Me, I'm from the school of thought that the Russian appear to belong to,<BR>too. <BR>&gt;The best way to clear a house is with a battery of howizters.<BR><BR>&gt;--<BR>&gt;"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR><BR>Me i prefer an Air Strike with laser guided bombs 8P<BR><BR>My motto there are few problems that cant be solved with a sutable<BR>application of Air Power. 8P<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:37:21 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>&gt;Actually, that's what I was planning on ;)&nbsp; I got the font from John last<BR>&gt;night (or was it the night before...) so I'll be able to work on this soon.<BR>&gt;I need to finish something for SJG &amp; BITS first, so it'll be about a week<BR>&gt;before I have a chance to do it.<BR><BR>&gt;Best,<BR>&gt;Jesse<BR><BR>Thanks jesse 8) now i just need to get a website 8)<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:39:05 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt<BR><BR>Bill,<BR><BR>Good choice: I like Mark's better too. Please feel free to use anything I've <BR>done on your web page and let me know if you would like anything done <BR>differently.<BR><BR>Thanks again for the interesting project. It has given me a chance to dust <BR>off some old skills and software.<BR><BR>Doing dinner sounds good, but I rarely get to SF. Let me know if you're ever <BR>in Colorado.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Mar 2001 10:35:11 -0800<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;They are both Excellent Graphics. and I had to sit and think last night. It<BR>&gt;is a tough choice.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;That said I still Like Marks the best. And I would like to use Marks on the<BR>&gt;Ship that Jesse is going to slap together us. I would like to use both<BR>&gt;graphics on the web page if allowed. I am thinking that and the strips John<BR>&gt;has provided will help me create a little Polynesian feel.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Hasta<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:51:41 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Total layman's question:&nbsp; are the different breeds of dog, like<BR>&gt; &gt;chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?<BR>&gt; &gt;ObTrav:&nbsp; the possibility of subspecies of Vargr, naturally...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Neither, they are breeds.&nbsp; ;)<BR>&gt;<BR><BR><BR>This brings up the question.&nbsp; Canon material seems to suggests that all<BR>Vargr are the same 'Breed', i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf.&nbsp; What do<BR>list members think of differentiated 'breeds' of Vargr.&nbsp; Does anyone<BR>(besides me) use a variety of Vargr 'breeds'&nbsp; in you TU?<BR><BR>Personally, I like the idea of a huge, hulking bruiser of a Vargr with<BR>vaguely mastif qualities, or a short, wiry Vargr with lots of spunk and<BR>energy.<BR><BR>Thoughts?<BR><BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3779<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3780</B></TD></TR>
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<TD vAlign=top width="10%">Date: </TD>
<TD>3/7/01 5:00:05 PM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Wednesday, March 7 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3780<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>House clearing<BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Intro<BR>Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR>Re: Crusades of the Future<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Re: sapiens (long)<BR>Re: Cloning Robots<BR>RE: Astrogation design<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: sapiens (long)<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3773<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Re: House clearing<BR>Re: Wealth<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 22:02:14 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>We've discussed species separating into unique subspecies which develop <BR>unique differences. Does the inverse occur, where two unique, but <BR>interfertile subspecies interbreed and merge to the point one is completely <BR>absorbed into the other? There would be some additional genetic diversity <BR>introduced into the remaining population, but maybe not that pronounced. <BR>Could that be what happened to Neanderthal?<BR><BR>John<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:05:45 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:29:49 -0000<BR>&gt; From: "Michael R. Blair" &lt;michael@carrickfergus.schoolzone.co.uk&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned that<BR>&gt; dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have been<BR>&gt; associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.<BR>&gt; To me it sounds as if the two species have almost evolved in parallel or<BR>&gt; symbiosis.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Michael R. Blair<BR><BR>The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener<BR>senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the higher<BR>intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be their own best<BR>friends.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 22:12:25 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>I've always provided for the existance of breeds of Vargr. I also seem to <BR>recall some canon statements supporting the idea. As flexible as the canine <BR>species is, it would be able to adjust rapidly to suit the environments of <BR>different worlds, maybe several times on each world. There was a show, I <BR>think on Discovery (maybe the same one that was on the BBC), tracing the <BR>spread of canines across the globe (independent of the human-dog <BR>association) and showing how they changed size, coat, metabolism, <BR>circulation patterns, etc. to adapt to each new environmental opening.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;This brings up the question.&nbsp; Canon material seems to suggests that all<BR>&gt;Vargr are the same 'Breed', i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf.&nbsp; What <BR>&gt;do<BR>&gt;list members think of differentiated 'breeds' of Vargr.&nbsp; Does anyone<BR>&gt;(besides me) use a variety of Vargr 'breeds'&nbsp; in you TU?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Personally, I like the idea of a huge, hulking bruiser of a Vargr with<BR>&gt;vaguely mastif qualities, or a short, wiry Vargr with lots of spunk and<BR>&gt;energy.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Thoughts?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Tod<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:12:56 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: House clearing<BR><BR>"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt; types:<BR>&gt;Me, I'm from the school of thought that the Russian appear to belong to, too.<BR>&gt;The best way to clear a house is with a battery of howizters.<BR><BR>"The preferred method of entering a building is to use a tank main gun <BR>round, direct fire artillery round, or TOW, Dragon, or Hellfire missile to <BR>clear the first room." -- THE RANGER HANDBOOK U.S. Army, 1992<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:18:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&gt;From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;After all who does all the work, and who gets to laze about all day <BR>&gt;chasing cats and balls...;-P<BR><BR>Still, dogs must think that we're the greatest hunters ever (or at least<BR>the greatest scavengers).&nbsp; We go out for an hour and we come back with<BR>hunks of red meat, birds, and fish -- amounts of food that it would take<BR>dogs days and days to accumulate.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:35:58 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Jeff Hopper &lt;jeff37923@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Intro<BR><BR>Hello.<BR>My name is Jeff Hopper, a Traveller player who<BR>started back in 1983 with CT and have followed it<BR>through to the present. I'm an ex-Navy nuke who is<BR>living in Tennessee building hazardous duty robots for<BR>a living. I just wanted to stop lurking around this<BR>site and say "Howdy!" to ya'all.<BR>I'm part of a gaming group that is in Knoxville, but<BR>none of them seem interested in playing Traveller<BR>(Most of them are stuck in the D&amp;D hack and slash<BR>mode). I would like to contact other members in the<BR>same area who would like to start up a regular game of<BR>either Traveller (CT, TNE, T4, or GT) or 2300AD.<BR>Contact me if interested.<BR>I've got a couple of questions for the list, though.<BR>There has been a lot of recent articles about a<BR>plasma-based drive system which used radio waves to<BR>heat up the hydrogen fuel called VASIMIR. I was<BR>wondering if anyone out there has taken a shot at<BR>writing this up as a maneuver drive for FF&amp;S or FF&amp;S2.<BR>I'd like to compare notes. <BR>Does anyone know of a set of rules governing<BR>radiation exposure and its damaging effects for CT?<BR>I've been able to find a kludge for TNE based on<BR>Twilight:2000, but that is all. If anyone knows of<BR>any, please let me know.<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:41:58 -0800<BR>From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loop???&nbsp; RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator<BR>&gt; &gt; will suffice.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Don't you mean det-cord loop? :)&nbsp; I didn't think cordite came in cord<BR>form.<BR>&gt; Mark?<BR><BR>I am reminded that cordite is also is useful for gettting sick time.&nbsp; Put a<BR>piece under your tongue, and after a while you'll get heart palpitations,<BR>look pastey and sweat alot. Just FYI.<BR><BR>Tod<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:52:17 -0000<BR>From: "Ben Aaronovitch" &lt;bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Crusades of the Future<BR><BR>Amazing.<BR><BR>I didn't even know there was such a thing as projectile snorting.<BR><BR>Another keyboard kill.<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR>'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: Trevor, Peter &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 12:23 PM<BR>Subject: RE: Crusades of the Future<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Ben Aaronovitch wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; I couldn't help noticing recently that while religon is a hot<BR>&gt; &gt; button issue so are programming languages. It occured to me that<BR>&gt; &gt; in some societies, particularly high tech ones, various programming<BR>&gt; &gt; languages could reflect (or even cause) philosophical differences<BR>&gt; &gt; within or between societies that might lead to conflict. Perhaps<BR>&gt; &gt; even violent conflict.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Until recently I would have said that was a very silly idea.&nbsp; But<BR>&gt; now ...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Obviously Star Trek got it wrong when they portrayed Mr Spock&nbsp; as<BR>&gt; a calm logical computer expert ... it&nbsp; seems&nbsp; that&nbsp; in&nbsp; RL&nbsp; there<BR>&gt; ain't&nbsp; no&nbsp; such&nbsp; thing!&nbsp; You&nbsp; can&nbsp; just&nbsp; imagine&nbsp; the&nbsp; fisticuffs<BR>&gt; breaking out during a symposium at the Vulcan Academy of Science.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; ObTrav: Programming languages ...&nbsp; the&nbsp; real&nbsp; reason&nbsp; behind&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; Rebellion.&nbsp; Strephon liked&nbsp; proprietry&nbsp; languages&nbsp; (anything&nbsp; MS)<BR>&gt; with their support and large user base, Dulinor thought&nbsp; everyone<BR>&gt; would benefit from the virtues of platform-independant Java,&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; Lucan was secretly just a malicious script-kiddie (who&nbsp; unleashed<BR>&gt; Mellissa 2).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Regards PLST<BR>&gt; (aka Stalin)<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:26:24 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>At 10:12 PM -0800 3/7/01, John Lambert wrote:<BR>&gt;I've always provided for the existance of breeds of Vargr. I also <BR>&gt;seem to recall some canon statements supporting the idea. As <BR>&gt;flexible as the canine species is, it would be able to adjust <BR>&gt;rapidly to suit the environments of different worlds, maybe several <BR>&gt;times on each world. There was a show, I think on Discovery (maybe <BR>&gt;the same one that was on the BBC), tracing the spread of canines <BR>&gt;across the globe (independent of the human-dog association) and <BR>&gt;showing how they changed size, coat, metabolism, circulation <BR>&gt;patterns, etc. to adapt to each new environmental opening.<BR><BR>Much of the variation in dogs (and note: Vargr are not decendant from <BR>dogs, but more root canine stock) is due to breeding by humans.&nbsp; If <BR>allowed to breed freely, much of the variation would disappear. <BR>Given Vargr society, forced breeding doesn't seem to be likely.<BR><BR>Also note: just like humans, Vargr evolved on one world and then <BR>spread out into space with the technology to control their <BR>environments.<BR><BR>There were breeds in one of the DGP publications.&nbsp; I never liked the idea<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:14:06 -0500<BR>From: Thom Jones-Low &lt;tjoneslo@together.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: sapiens (long)<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:09:56<BR>&gt; From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: sapiens (long)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;Do the fruit flies show as much variation among their species as<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;neanderthals and modern man do as subspecies?<BR>&gt; &gt;That depends on what you mean by variation.&nbsp; A very large<BR>&gt; &gt;can of several species of worms.&nbsp; :)<BR>&gt; &gt;Oh. Well, I guess I mean a fairly lay definition. By that, are there are<BR>&gt; &gt;clear and obvious differences that can be appreciated in the same way as<BR>&gt; &gt;may<BR>&gt; &gt;seperate modern humans and neanderthals.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Another example of a species with a very wide range of variations is the dog<BR>&gt; (Canis familiaris). Of course, there was an agent encouraging the<BR>&gt; variations, us instead of the Ancients. In spite of the wide variations,<BR>&gt; dogs are interfertile, although certain crosses can cause problems due<BR>&gt; mostly to size. The difference between the breeds of dogs are far more<BR>&gt; extreme than between the human races in Traveller. (I live with two<BR>&gt; extremes: an 8-pound Maltese and two 140-pound Great Pyrenees.) I believe<BR>&gt; that there are significant genetic differences between wolves and dogs, but<BR>&gt; they are still interfertile.<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; I've done some research into this area (dogs and wolves). From what<BR>I've been able to find dogs can interbreed with both wolves and coyotes,<BR>and there isn't enough genetic differences to be able to tell if you<BR>have a cross breed or not. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; There is some evidence to indicate that dogs were domesticated several<BR>different times from different sub-species of wolves. Then cross bred to<BR>produce the wide variety seen today. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thomas Jones-Low<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; tjoneslo@together.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:22:06 -0500<BR>From: Thom Jones-Low &lt;tjoneslo@together.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cloning Robots<BR><BR>&gt; John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com puts into the Ether:<BR>&gt; &gt;A more moral (if far more expensive) option is a pseudobio robot. It<BR>&gt; &gt;won't be cheap, but you could make a robot that can pass as<BR>&gt; &gt;human.&nbsp; It's TL 15, but you could likely even grow the person's skin<BR>&gt; &gt;around it, which combined with careful shielding will allow it to pass<BR>&gt; &gt;nearly anything except a medical test.&nbsp; Of course, doing this will<BR>&gt; &gt;likely cost at minimum 500,000 Credits, more if you want it to be<BR>&gt; &gt;able to hold a simple human-seeming conversation.&nbsp; Probably more<BR>&gt; &gt;like 2 MCr.<BR>&gt; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; This concept has already been done almost to death. The original DPG<BR>adventures in the Traveller Digest were all based around the Robiticist,<BR>his experimental robot, and their travel through the Imperium. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; IIRC, they managed to get to Capital just in time to see Dulinor shoot<BR>Strephon, then escaped rimward and back to the Marches via the Aslan. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thomas Jones-Low<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; tjoneslo@together.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:32:40 -0000<BR>From: "Mark Preston" &lt;mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Astrogation design<BR><BR>Does your software need a link from sector&lt;--&gt;subsector&lt;--&gt;system then<BR>Stalin? I've not included that in the XML for data sharing, but will<BR>if it will be needed.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>Email&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk<BR>Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:06:20 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>The Discovery program addressed the variation in canines excluding the <BR>forced breeding of dogs. The original canines evolved into the wide variety <BR>of wolves, foxes, and wild dogs. These different varieties vary greatly in <BR>size and physical build to match extreme hot, cold, and dry environments.<BR><BR>The type of variation I would expect in the Vargr would be to such things as <BR>high or low gravity, dim or bright light, etc. which are not easy to escape <BR>using normal technology. The canines appear to be able to change physical <BR>structure to adapt more than early man.<BR><BR>There is an article in the current Scientific American describing how <BR>certain lizards (I don't have the article with me)on islands have evolved on <BR>many islands into similar subspecies even though it appears that only one of <BR>the subspecies was originally introduced onto the island.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;At 10:12 PM -0800 3/7/01, John Lambert wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;I've always provided for the existance of breeds of Vargr. I also<BR>&gt;&gt;seem to recall some canon statements supporting the idea. As<BR>&gt;&gt;flexible as the canine species is, it would be able to adjust<BR>&gt;&gt;rapidly to suit the environments of different worlds, maybe several<BR>&gt;&gt;times on each world. There was a show, I think on Discovery (maybe<BR>&gt;&gt;the same one that was on the BBC), tracing the spread of canines<BR>&gt;&gt;across the globe (independent of the human-dog association) and<BR>&gt;&gt;showing how they changed size, coat, metabolism, circulation<BR>&gt;&gt;patterns, etc. to adapt to each new environmental opening.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Much of the variation in dogs (and note: Vargr are not decendant from<BR>&gt;dogs, but more root canine stock) is due to breeding by humans.&nbsp; If<BR>&gt;allowed to breed freely, much of the variation would disappear.<BR>&gt;Given Vargr society, forced breeding doesn't seem to be likely.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Also note: just like humans, Vargr evolved on one world and then<BR>&gt;spread out into space with the technology to control their<BR>&gt;environments.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;There were breeds in one of the DGP publications.&nbsp; I never liked the idea<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;______________________________<BR>&gt;summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>&gt;(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in <BR>&gt;California.)<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:18:52 <BR>From: "David Interdonato" &lt;digrazzi@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>Perhaps a new section could be added to the homeworld resolution section of <BR>character generation.&nbsp; For instance a character that has thrown results to <BR>describe that they and their family are long term residents of a world with <BR>pretty odd living conditions a certain amount of +/- could be applied to <BR>their attributes.<BR><BR>I have always assumed that the Vargr are as varied amoung themselves as <BR>Solomani are varied.&nbsp; This generally is attained by the 2D6 throw of dice <BR>for attributes.&nbsp; Meaning that yes Vargr are many different breeds/races, <BR>they all fall within a Vargr-norm in the same way a Kalahari pygmie and a <BR>Sumo wrestler are both perfectly human.<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:22:43 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>Fetch me my food, monkey boy!<BR><BR>(at least, that's how my dog puts it...)<BR><BR>- --- Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; Michael R. Blair wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned<BR>&gt; that<BR>&gt; &gt; dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have<BR>&gt; been<BR>&gt; &gt; associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.<BR>&gt; &gt; To me it sounds as if the two species have almost evolved in<BR>&gt; parallel or<BR>&gt; &gt; symbiosis.<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Michael R. Blair<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Yeah, and the scientist who has found the greatest evidence for <BR>&gt; canid-hominid association is of the opinion that dogs have molded<BR>&gt; humans <BR>&gt; as much as humans have molded dogs, that we are much more pack-like<BR>&gt; than <BR>&gt; we would otherwise be.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Of coure my dogs just look at me, grin, and say 'Duh!' but, we <BR>&gt; two-footers are sometimes slow to catch on.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; After all who does all the work, and who gets to laze about all day <BR>&gt; chasing cats and balls...;-P<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; -- <BR>&gt; Bruce Johnson<BR>&gt; University of Arizona<BR>&gt; College of Pharmacy<BR>&gt; Information Technology Group<BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:24:12 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: sapiens (long)<BR><BR>Thom Jones-Low wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; I've done some research into this area (dogs and wolves). From what<BR>&gt; I've been able to find dogs can interbreed with both wolves and coyotes,<BR>&gt; and there isn't enough genetic differences to be able to tell if you<BR>&gt; have a cross breed or not. <BR><BR>Absolutely. There is some debate regarding whether the endangered Eastern Red Wolf ever was anything but a cross between coyotes and gray wolves.<BR><BR>This is the largets argument on the side of the taxonomists that lump <BR>them all into a single species.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:26:16 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3773<BR><BR>Walt Smith wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt; This is true, but you know, America earned this reputation.<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt; There are good beers in America NOW, mostly from microbreweries, <BR>&gt;&gt; but when<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt; I was a kid and first began to drink beer, the choices were pretty <BR>&gt;&gt; much:<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt; Budweiser, Miller, Coors, Schaefer, and Generic.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; One word: Prohibition. Prohibition was the Great Extinction for <BR>&gt;&gt; breweries in the US; prior to Prohibition, beer was made and consumed <BR>&gt;&gt; locally, and there were few (if any) national brands.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hmmm...I'm taking a class in Management at my workplace now,<BR>&gt; we just did a bit on the development of the US national<BR>&gt; brewing industry.&nbsp; According to our textbook, the US brewing<BR>&gt; industry was still made up of hundreds of small regional<BR>&gt; companies right up until 1960.&nbsp; A few successful ones (the makers<BR>&gt; of the beers listed above) started going after larger markets at<BR>&gt; about that time, buying out and closing down local breweries in<BR>&gt; other regions.&nbsp; They'd still market the local brand for a while,<BR>&gt; but they'd closely link it with their national name.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The critical transition period between "every city has a local<BR>&gt; brewing company" and "six nationwide companies have 75% of the beer<BR>&gt; market" seemed to be between 1960 and 1979, long after prohibition.<BR>&gt; Not that many breweries didn't go under when Prohibition reduced<BR>&gt; them to making non-alcoholic beer or alternate products, but our<BR>&gt; class readings seem to indicate that many more sprang up when the<BR>&gt; "Great Experiment" of Prohibition was ended.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Always interesting to see different views of history - an<BR>&gt; industry insider associating the change with Prohibition, a team<BR>&gt; of management analysts (the writers of our textbook) associating<BR>&gt; the change with other factors like the development of nationwide<BR>&gt; television networks (and the associated advertising markets).<BR><BR>Hmm, much of my infoprmation was based on reading _Beer Blast_, whihc covered a lot of that ground.<BR><BR>Does your textbook give sources for their info? I'd like to see some of it.<BR><BR>(It's likely that they're right, and I'm wrong.)<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:28:00 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>- --- Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&lt;&lt;...i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf.&gt;&gt;<BR><BR>This brings up the question:&nbsp; Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to be a<BR>comic genius or a racist stereotype?<BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:52:23 -0800<BR>From: "Pronto" &lt;pronto_r031@telus.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: House clearing<BR><BR>From: "Mark Urbin" &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt; replied to:<BR><BR>&gt; "Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt; types:<BR>&gt; &gt;Me, I'm from the school of thought that the Russian appear to belong to,<BR>too.<BR>&gt; &gt;The best way to clear a house is with a battery of howizters.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; "The preferred method of entering a building is to use a tank main gun<BR>&gt; round, direct fire artillery round, or TOW, Dragon, or Hellfire missile to<BR>&gt; clear the first room." -- THE RANGER HANDBOOK U.S. Army, 1992<BR><BR><BR>Those are both good systems, but I think the original idea was to keep some<BR>of the hostages alive.&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;G&gt;<BR><BR><BR>Pronto<BR>AKA Brian Taylor<BR>Next year, at Burning Man!<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 01:56:59 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>Peter Newman writes:<BR>&gt;Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Peter Newman writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;Are you trying to tell me that when you walk into a store with Imperial<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;Credits and the shopkeeper refuses to accept them that the Imperial<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;government is going to let them get away with it?<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;The question is moot, because the conditions doesn't exist. There IS trade<BR>&gt;&gt;between the planets of the Imperium and consequently people CAN buy stuff they<BR>&gt;&gt;want with Imperial credits.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;You are evading the question. The question is not if buyers can buy with<BR>&gt;Imperial credits but if sellers must accept Imperial credits.<BR><BR>I'm not evading the question, I'm telling you that it is meaningless because it<BR>presupposes a condition that doesn't exist. It is on a par with questions like<BR>"If Strephon was a Vargr, would he be able to make Brzk obey him?"<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;The most expensive goods the Imperium uses are probably capital class<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;starships. Canon establishes that many types of starships are built at<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;many locations. <BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;What's your point? If that isn't an example of the Imperium taking its taxes<BR>&gt;&gt;out in kind then I don't know what is.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I'm asserting that the most expensive thing they buy can lift itself off of a<BR>&gt;planetary surface. Thus it need not be "physically lifted off the planetary<BR>&gt;surface and moved elsewhere" but rather it transports itself.<BR><BR>And what difference does that make? You're claiming that if the planet gives the<BR>subsector duke a sackful of Imperial credits, the planet is poorer by that<BR>amount. I'm claiming that unless the subsector duke actually shows up and<BR>demands goods for those credits then the planet isn't poorer by one jot. That<BR>the goods can move by themselves is completely irrelevant to that argument.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;In other words, they buy goods and transport them off-world. Just as I said.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;No. I am asserting that they are more likely to have them<BR>&gt;transported off world than to transport them off world themselves.<BR><BR>A distinction without any meaning. The point is still that the Imperium has no<BR>joy whatsoever of owning a crate of Crimp notes unless they plan to use them to<BR>buy goods (or services).<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;And that trade is how the wealth is transferred from planet to planet. The<BR>&gt;&gt;exchange of Crimps is merely a way to keep score. A tally. Promisory notes.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;No because the Imperial Credit can be, and is, used for internal<BR>&gt;commerce as well as external commerce. Thus the Imperial Credit<BR>&gt;serves as a medium of exchange as well.<BR><BR>A lot of people has the same trouble you have distinguishing between the wealth<BR>and the markers. It's an illusion that works as long as everybody believes in<BR>it. But ask anyone who's found a fortune in Confederate money how rich they are.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;And if they can't use those credit to buy stuff on another planet then the<BR>&gt;&gt;Imperium is not good for the debt. You're arguing in circles. The reason people<BR>&gt;&gt;accept Crimps is precisely because they know they CAN buy stuff from other<BR>&gt;&gt;worlds with it. If they couldn't, they wouldn't accept them.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Not exactly. What I am asserting is that because the Imperium is willing to<BR>&gt;kill people who don't accept the Imperial credit this provides an incentive<BR>&gt;for people to accept the Imperial credit.<BR><BR>You do realise that you have no evidence to support your CLAIM that the Imperium<BR>is willing to kill people who won't accept Imperial credits.<BR><BR>&gt;Even people who are willing to risk being killed will accept the credit<BR>&gt;because they know that others will accept it or risk being killed.<BR><BR>People accept Imperial credits because they can buy something for them, not<BR>because they are afraid not to. And the reason they can buy stuff with Crimps is<BR>that stuff is, indeed, traded between planets. If that wasn't the case, they<BR>wouldn't be able to buy stuff with their Crimp.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;For a member world to say that is clearly rebellious. There is a very good<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;reason why the Imperial navy has weapons of mass destruction and it is not<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;the Zhodani. <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;Read your MT.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;In the interest of keeping this civil I'll refrain from replying to this the<BR>&gt;&gt;way it so richly deserves.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;If, as usual, you're going to be snide about this I may as well <BR>&gt;note that I've rarely known you to be civil and this is not one <BR>&gt;of those times.<BR><BR>To imply that the MT books support your contentions and that the only reason I'm<BR>arguing against them must be that I haven't read them properly is extremely rude<BR>of you. I consider my gentle reproach quite restrained. Perhaps you should look<BR>up 'civil' in the dictionary. I don't think it means what you think it means.<BR><BR>&gt;You constantly project the patronizing attitude that you know Traveller better<BR>&gt;than others. <BR><BR>While I'm sorry to hear that I come across as patronizing and willing to try to<BR>remedy that, I don't think being patronizing is incompatible with being civil.<BR><BR>&gt;Much of the time your belief is correct but there are people [1]<BR>&gt;who know it as well and merely interpret it differently.<BR><BR>So there are, and on several occasions I've been persuaded that they were right<BR>and I was wrong. On more occasions I've come to agree to disagree with them.<BR><BR>This is not one of those occasions. <BR><BR>&gt;MT canon clearly establishes that the Imperial Navy did use it's weapons on<BR>&gt;its people. It establishes that at least billions of people died as a result.<BR><BR>Yes, but it doesn't say that they did this because those planets refused to<BR>accept Imperial credits. And unless that was what you were implying, the whole<BR>argument makes no sense at all in connection with this discussion.<BR><BR>Look, let's start again. It's obvious that i've failed to explain myself<BR>adequately. Let me try a different tack.<BR><BR>I'm going to promise you a beer. I mean that sincerely. Show up on my doorstep<BR>and I'll take you out and buy you a beer. Now, doesn't that quench your thirst<BR>remarkably? I didn't think it would. You've just recieved an electronic transfer<BR>of funds, an electronic IOU:<BR><BR>- ----------------------<BR>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>|&nbsp; IOU one beer.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| &nbsp; &nbsp; Hans Rancke&nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>|_____________________|<BR><BR>Now, you can print that out and frame it, but unless you actually come over to<BR>Denmark and collect, you're not one bit better off than before. And I'm not a<BR>bit worse off. I've got a beer in my larder (left behind by a visitor), and<BR>unless you show up one day to collect it, I'm going to keep on having that beer<BR>in my larder. In the same way, a planet can send a message to the subsector duke<BR>that they owe him 10 billion credits, but unless he shows up to collect ships or<BR>supplies to the tune of 10 billion credits, the planet is not one decicred<BR>poorer.<BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3780<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xa02.mx.aol.com (rly-xa02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.71]) by air-xa02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:00:05 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xa02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:59:24 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA19330;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:57:29 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:57:04 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id TAA19283<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:57:04 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:57:04 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103080057.TAA19283@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3780<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3781</B></TD></TR>
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<TD>3/7/01 11:49:16 PM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, March 8 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3781<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise <BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>RE: Wealth<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>RE: Wealth<BR>Re: Cordite loop???<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>re: Intro<BR>RE: Cordite loops<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Qship design questions<BR>FFS2 design characteristics<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Re: Cordite loops<BR>RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Cordite loop???<BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: Cloning Robots<BR>RE: Crusades of the Future<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:59:10 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise <BR><BR>Stephen wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt; writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Actually, there are people who claim exactly that.<BR>Unfortunately,<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; terms like "subspecies" carry emotional luggage.&nbsp; I believe<BR>that<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "subspecies" is more difficult to define than species, but<BR>where<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; humans are involved there are even more complications.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Total layman's question:&nbsp; are the different breeds of dog, like<BR>&gt;chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?<BR><BR>The different breeds of dogs are all the same species (Canis<BR>familiaris), some call them seperate sub-species.<BR>ObTrav: Alien Modules 6 calls them seperate sub-species.<BR><BR>Dogs, wolves (Canis lupis), and coyotes (Canis latrans) are<BR>interfertile, and thus may be misclassified as seperate species.<BR><BR>Charles H<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 01:02:12 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>This is exactly the sort of variation I envision. There will be a Vargr <BR>norm, but the Vargr will display a wider range of physical adaptation to an <BR>environment than the Solomani would. These variations would not be as <BR>extreme as the variety in dog breeds (although it is this genetic <BR>flexibility that dog breeders have capitalized on). The variations would be <BR>reflected in heavier or lighter builds, heavier or lighter coats (possibly <BR>with undercoats), darker or lighter coats, etc. possibliity with localized <BR>color trends (like humans). They would all be recognizable as Vargr, but an <BR>expert could place Vargr's homeworld more easily than a Solomani's.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;From: "David Interdonato" &lt;digrazzi@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Perhaps a new section could be added to the homeworld resolution section of<BR>&gt;character generation.&nbsp; For instance a character that has thrown results to<BR>&gt;describe that they and their family are long term residents of a world with<BR>&gt;pretty odd living conditions a certain amount of +/- could be applied to<BR>&gt;their attributes.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I have always assumed that the Vargr are as varied amoung themselves as<BR>&gt;Solomani are varied.&nbsp; This generally is attained by the 2D6 throw of dice<BR>&gt;for attributes.&nbsp; Meaning that yes Vargr are many different breeds/races,<BR>&gt;they all fall within a Vargr-norm in the same way a Kalahari pygmie and a<BR>&gt;Sumo wrestler are both perfectly human.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:11:57 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Wealth<BR><BR>- ----------------------<BR>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>|&nbsp; IOU one beer.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| &nbsp; &nbsp; Hans Rancke&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>|_____________________|<BR><BR><BR>Now i just have to figure out how to get to Denmark! WOOT! im one beer<BR>richer 8P<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:34:13 -0700<BR>From: "J. Paul Sanders" &lt;jps64@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>At 03:26 PM 3/7/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;There were breeds in one of the DGP publications.&nbsp; I never liked the idea<BR><BR>Vilani &amp; Vargr - I actually sort of liked the idea of Vargr breeds myself.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:32:02 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Wealth<BR><BR>- ----------------------<BR>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>|&nbsp; IOU one beer.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| &nbsp; &nbsp; Hans Rancke&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>|_____________________|<BR><BR>DOH im missing the whole point of this this discussion. If i can find<BR>someone who is going to Denmark i can barter with them to accept my Beer at<BR>face value. and there by get them to buy me a beer here. then they can take<BR>the Beer Buck(tm) to denmark and cash in. WOOT!<BR><BR>Anyone going to denmark any time soon?<BR><BR>I place total faith ion the face value of my Beer Buck(tm) 8P<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:26:37 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loop???<BR><BR>Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;I am reminded that cordite is also is useful for gettting sick time.&nbsp; Put a<BR>&gt;piece under your tongue, and after a while you'll get heart palpitations,<BR>&gt;look pastey and sweat alot. Just FYI.<BR><BR>...and if you put too *big* a piece under your tongue, you'll get cardiac<BR>arrest, look blue, and not sweat at all.&nbsp; It's the nitro in the cordite, you<BR>see. It's a smooth-muscle relaxant and coronary artery dilator.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:45:04 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>Peter Newman wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;You are evading the question. The question is not if buyers<BR>&gt;can buy with Imperial credits but if sellers must accept<BR>&gt;Imperial credits.<BR><BR>IMTU, no sellers do not have to accept Imperial Credits.&nbsp; But if they<BR>want to stay in business, they need to accept the most common and most<BR>stable currency locally available.&nbsp; The only places in the Imperium that<BR>you would find that it is hard to buy things with CrImps would be the<BR>outback areas of worlds.&nbsp; The closer you are to the starport (travel<BR>time/communications time) the more places will accept CrImps.<BR><BR>&gt;What if Eneri Q Public is domain manager for a mega corporation<BR>&gt;and he (after a Vilani style consensus is achieved) announces<BR>&gt;that they will no longer accept CrImps?<BR><BR>What more common AND more stable currency was available for his company<BR>to accept?&nbsp; Congratulations, he just gave 90% of his coustomer base to<BR>the competition.<BR><BR>Hans wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; And if they can't use those credit to buy stuff on another planet<BR>then the<BR>&gt;&gt; Imperium is not good for the debt. You're arguing in circles. The<BR>reason people<BR>&gt;&gt; accept Crimps is precisely because they know they CAN buy stuff from<BR>other<BR>&gt;&gt; worlds with it. If they couldn't, they wouldn't accept them.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Not exactly. What I am asserting is that because the Imperium<BR>&gt;is willing to kill people who don't accept the Imperial credit<BR>&gt;this provides an incentive for people to accept the Imperial<BR>&gt;credit. Even people who are willing to risk being killed will<BR>&gt;accept the credit because they know that others will accept<BR>&gt;it or risk being killed.<BR><BR>I agree with Hans on this.&nbsp; People will use the form of currency that is<BR>most common and stable, this will be a currency that the bearer can<BR>exchange the currency for wanted products and/or services within an<BR>acceptable length of time.&nbsp; He will not likely want to return to a<BR>planet that has issued the currency to exchange it.&nbsp; The Imperium pays<BR>its bills, saleries, and aid in Imperial Credits, therefore there are a<BR>lot of CrImps moving about in and around starports, therefore the CrImps<BR>are a very common currency for travellers.&nbsp; Also Imperial run<BR>organizations such as the SPA require payment in CrImps.&nbsp; (Imperial tax<BR>collectors may accept anything that they can convert to CrImps)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 02:57:14 +0100<BR>From: "Patrik Holmstrm" &lt;glappkaeft@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>&gt;Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;Another, interesting point, as the Solomani &amp; Vilani<BR>&gt;&gt;intermingled, just what effect would the spread of different blood<BR>&gt;&gt;proteins have?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;From a clinical standpoint, not a lot. It makes haemolytic disease a <BR>&gt; &gt;little more likely. Blood and tissues are somewhat more difficult to <BR>&gt; &gt;cross-match. Solomani medical tech over the period should cope easily.<BR><BR>However that period was ended quite abruptly by the long night not many <BR>years after the Nth interstellar war (and the spreading of Solomani humans). <BR>The situation would be a lot worse with TL0-6 medicine, right?<BR><BR>Patrik<BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:13:09 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Intro<BR><BR>&gt;From: Jeff Hopper &lt;jeff37923@yahoo.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Does anyone know of a set of rules governing<BR>&gt;radiation exposure and its damaging effects for CT?<BR>&gt;I've been able to find a kludge for TNE based on<BR>&gt;Twilight:2000, but that is all. If anyone knows of<BR>&gt;any, please let me know.<BR><BR>DGP wrote some rules for this in Traveller's Digest or Megatraveller<BR>Journal, but I think they apply to MT.&nbsp; <BR><BR>This would be a good newbie essay.&nbsp; <BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:57:33 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Cordite loops<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:35:11 -0800<BR>&gt; From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Cordite loops<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Me, I'm from the school of thought that the Russian appear to belong to,<BR>&gt; too.<BR>&gt; &gt;The best way to clear a house is with a battery of howizters.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;--<BR>&gt; &gt;"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Me i prefer an Air Strike with laser guided bombs 8P<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; My motto there are few problems that cant be solved with a sutable<BR>&gt; application of Air Power. 8P<BR><BR>It's a pity that most of the historical evidence suggests that neither<BR>approach is particularly effective. Blowing buildings up just leaves<BR>lots of rubble for defenders to slink around in.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:11:33 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:51:41 -0800<BR>&gt; From: "Tod Glenn" &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This brings up the question.&nbsp; Canon material seems to suggests that all<BR>&gt; Vargr are the same 'Breed', i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf.&nbsp; What<BR>do<BR>&gt; list members think of differentiated 'breeds' of Vargr.&nbsp; Does anyone<BR>&gt; (besides me) use a variety of Vargr 'breeds'&nbsp; in you TU?<BR><BR>First off I would hesitate to call subspecies of vargr "breeds" on the<BR>theory that vargr aren't bread. (sp?) Secondly I doubt I'd make a big<BR>deal about different subspecies of vargr unless I was willing to deal<BR>with the ugly implications of racism. On the other hand I have heard<BR>of cannon mentions of different subspecies in some obscure dgp stuff<BR>so YMMV.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:20:16 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>&gt;This brings up the question:&nbsp; Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to be a<BR>&gt;comic genius or a racist stereotype?<BR><BR>I asked two Vargr that question and got the following four answers:&nbsp; Yes,<BR>no, who cares?, and would you please clarify the question?<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 03:24:02 +0100<BR>From: "Patrik Holmstrm" &lt;glappkaeft@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Qship design questions<BR><BR>I have been busy the last 2 weeks pulling 80-90 h a week (if I could find <BR>the administrator who thinks this is reasonable for only 200$ a month and <BR>the privilege of putting myself 500$ in dept every month...) so I have been <BR>unable to answer Mr Larsons questions on my Q-ship design. However the <BR>answers given by Jens Rydholm, John Groth and others (my thanks) were very <BR>accurate. Now that I have cleared my 1,5 Mb backlog I can answer any <BR>questions left unclear.<BR><BR>Patrik Holmstrm<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 03:32:04 +0100<BR>From: "Patrik Holmstrm" &lt;glappkaeft@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: FFS2 design characteristics<BR><BR>&gt;John Groth wrote<BR>&gt;For instance, we at AuricTech Shipyards tend to prioritize ship<BR>&gt;characteristics as follows (in approximate order, from most to least<BR>&gt;important): performance (both n-space and jump), sensor range,<BR>&gt;habitability (very few AuricTech ships use double-occupancy staterooms<BR>&gt;or bunks), armor, weapons, and small craft capacity, with the exact<BR>&gt;order of these characteristics depending on the mission of the ship in<BR>&gt;question.&nbsp; (Note that these priorities tend to drive prices _way_ up.)<BR><BR>Dimashq favour similar design guidelines as AuricTech with the main <BR>difference being heavier use of stealth. We sometimes favour armour over <BR>acceleration if the benefit is large enough (i.e for very large designs).<BR><BR>&gt;Other firms, such as Gridlore Technologies, Dimashq Shipyards, and<BR>&gt;Famille Spofulam have different design philosophies.&nbsp; None of these is<BR>&gt;wrong, yet none of these yards would approach a design in quite the<BR>&gt;high-capability, high-cost way that AuricTech does.<BR><BR>The most expensive vessel I have seen to date however is the Dimashq 900kdt <BR>"Recurrent Glory" (1498 GCr) leaving the AuricTech 1000kdt "Shiva" (1353GCr) <BR>in third place after the 800kdt "Mengingjord" (1373 GCr), another Dimashq <BR>design. However I have great faith in AuricTech's ability to remedy this <BR>situation. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Sidenote: It's impossible to play a game of TCS with any of the above <BR>designs. :)<BR><BR>Patrik Holmstrm &lt;glappkaeft@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/<BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:47:17 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>John Lambert wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;I've always provided for the existance of breeds of Vargr. I also seem<BR>to<BR>&gt;recall some canon statements supporting the idea. As flexible as the<BR>canine<BR>&gt;species is, it would be able to adjust rapidly to suit the environments<BR>of<BR>&gt;different worlds, maybe several times on each world. There was a show,<BR>I<BR>&gt;think on Discovery (maybe the same one that was on the BBC), tracing<BR>the<BR>&gt;spread of canines across the globe (independent of the human-dog<BR>&gt;association) and showing how they changed size, coat, metabolism,<BR>&gt;circulation patterns, etc. to adapt to each new environmental opening.<BR><BR>I agree with you.<BR><BR>DGP's Vilani and Vargr states that most Vargr subspecies have been<BR>driven coreward, and are thus unknown to humans. (pg 63)<BR><BR>canon??? ( I cannot seem to find my Alien Module 3, Vargr)<BR><BR>Charles H<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:57:27 -0800<BR>From: Cheryl &lt;cheryl@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loops<BR><BR>on 3/7/01 4:00 AM, Megan Robertson at mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; In-Reply-To: &lt;B6CB1E21.49A5%drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Greetings dear hearts.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Det/prima-cord is very useful... but quite hard to get hold of :-(<BR>&gt; <BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>Actually, it's really common, because it's used by the commercial explosives<BR>users as well as the military. Any place that you can legitimately buy<BR>dynamite, you can also likely acquire det cord. "hard to get hold of" is of<BR>course, relative to your level of local regulations. In many states (in the<BR>U.S.) all you have to do is show photo ID, fill out a federal form, pay the<BR>dealer and load it into a placarded vehicle.<BR><BR>- -Cheryl Glenn<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:53:43 +1100 <BR>From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>This would imply that the Vargr *are* a race superior to humaniti.<BR>Better keep this wild theory under wraps....<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: DaveShayne [mailto:daveshayne@email.msn.com]<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 9:06 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:29:49 -0000<BR>&gt; From: "Michael R. Blair" &lt;michael@carrickfergus.schoolzone.co.uk&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned<BR>that<BR>&gt; dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have been<BR>&gt; associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.<BR>&gt; To me it sounds as if the two species have almost evolved in parallel<BR>or<BR>&gt; symbiosis.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Michael R. Blair<BR><BR>The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener<BR>senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the higher<BR>intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be their own<BR>best<BR>friends.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:06:03 -0800<BR>From: "Pronto" &lt;pronto_r031@telus.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; ----------------------<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; IOU one beer.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; | Hans Rancke&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; |_____________________|<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Now i just have to figure out how to get to Denmark! WOOT! im one beer<BR>&gt; richer 8P<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bill<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;<BR>ROFL!<BR>Hans is going to owe everybody beer!<BR>Let's all go to Denmark!<BR><BR>Pronto<BR>AKA Brian Taylor<BR>Next year, at Burning Man! <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:07:56 -0800<BR>From: "Pronto" &lt;pronto_r031@telus.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loop???<BR><BR>&gt; Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt; writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;I am reminded that cordite is also is useful for gettting sick time.&nbsp; Put<BR>a<BR>&gt; &gt;piece under your tongue, and after a while you'll get heart palpitations,<BR>&gt; &gt;look pastey and sweat alot. Just FYI.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; ...and if you put too *big* a piece under your tongue, you'll get cardiac<BR>&gt; arrest, look blue, and not sweat at all.&nbsp; It's the nitro in the cordite,<BR>you<BR>&gt; see. It's a smooth-muscle relaxant and coronary artery dilator.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Mark C.<BR>&gt;<BR>Thank you. I've always wondered what the mechanism behind that trick was.<BR><BR>Pronto<BR>AKA Brian Taylor<BR>Next year, at Burning Man!<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:35:55 -0600<BR>From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>At 05:05 PM 3/7/2001 -0500, David Shayne wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener<BR>&gt;senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the higher<BR>&gt;intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be their own best<BR>&gt;friends.<BR><BR>I'm Mawg.<BR>Half-man, half-dog.<BR>I'm my own best friend.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; John Candy as Mawg<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Space Balls<BR><BR>Jimmy Simpson<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>"The avalanche has already started.<BR>It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:33:32 -0600<BR>From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cloning Robots<BR><BR>At 07:22 PM 3/7/2001 -0500, Thomas Jones-Low wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com puts into the Ether:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;A more moral (if far more expensive) option is a pseudobio robot. It<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;won't be cheap, but you could make a robot that can pass as<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;human.&nbsp; It's TL 15, but you could likely even grow the person's skin<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;around it, which combined with careful shielding will allow it to pass<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;nearly anything except a medical test.&nbsp; Of course, doing this will<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;likely cost at minimum 500,000 Credits, more if you want it to be<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;able to hold a simple human-seeming conversation.&nbsp; Probably more<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;like 2 MCr.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; This concept has already been done almost to death. The original DPG<BR>&gt;adventures in the Traveller Digest were all based around the Robiticist,<BR>&gt;his experimental robot, and their travel through the Imperium.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; IIRC, they managed to get to Capital just in time to see Dulinor <BR>&gt; shoot<BR>&gt;Strephon, then escaped rimward and back to the Marches via the Aslan.<BR><BR>No, they were about 11 years too early (1105) for the assassination, but <BR>they did get to see Norris' holorep petitioning the emperor for command of <BR>the Spinward Marches fleets should war break out with the Zhodani <BR>(5FW).&nbsp; If you can get a copy of 101 robots, they have the break down for <BR>AB-101 (Aybee Wan Owen (sp?)) and his cost is about MCr11, but he is <BR>cutting edge tech.&nbsp; There is another pseudo-bio robot listed for about MCr1.5.<BR><BR>Jimmy Simpson<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>"The avalanche has already started.<BR>It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:06:56 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Crusades of the Future<BR><BR>Ben Aaronovitch wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; I couldn't help noticing recently that while religon <BR>&gt; is a hot button issue so are programming languages. <BR>&gt; It occured to me that in some societies, particularly<BR>&gt; high tech ones, various programming languages could <BR>&gt; reflect (or even cause)philosophical differences <BR>&gt; within or between societies that might lead to<BR>&gt; conflict. Perhaps even violent conflict.<BR><BR>That's what TNE is.<BR><BR>What you don't want to use the Virus Operating System ?<BR>Heathen Machine Hater ! Die !<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:10:20 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I've been a professional programmer since 1987,&nbsp; worked&nbsp; for&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; construction industry,&nbsp; automotive,&nbsp; telecoms,&nbsp; several&nbsp; merchant<BR>&gt; banks, software houses, and multinationals.&nbsp; My question is this:<BR>&gt; what's a "pointer"?<BR><BR>A block of memory, ontaining the memory address of some other block of<BR>memory.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:12:49 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>Gordon Hundley wrote :<BR>&gt; on 7/3/01 6:52 am, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; I've been a professional programmer since 1987,&nbsp; worked&nbsp; for&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; &gt; construction industry,&nbsp; automotive,&nbsp; telecoms,&nbsp; several&nbsp; merchant<BR>&gt; &gt; banks, software houses, and multinationals.&nbsp; My question is this:<BR>&gt; &gt; what's a "pointer"?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Simply C jargon for a call by reference rather than by value.<BR><BR>Nope, it's not a "call" at all. <BR><BR>Franie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 23:39:01 -0800<BR>From: "Kelly St.Clair" &lt;kellys@efn.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 01:56:59 +0100, Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Look, let's start again. It's obvious that i've failed to explain myself<BR>&gt;adequately. Let me try a different tack.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I'm going to promise you a beer. I mean that sincerely. Show up on my <BR>&gt;doorstep and I'll take you out and buy you a beer. Now, doesn't that <BR>&gt;quench your thirst remarkably? I didn't think it would. You've just <BR>&gt;recieved an electronic transfer of funds, an electronic IOU:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;- ---------------------<BR>&gt;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&gt;|&nbsp; IOU one beer.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&gt;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&gt;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hans Rancke&nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&gt;|_____________________|<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Now, you can print that out and frame it, but unless you actually come over<BR>&gt;to Denmark and collect, you're not one bit better off than before. And I'm<BR>&gt;not a bit worse off. I've got a beer in my larder (left behind by a visitor),<BR>&gt;and unless you show up one day to collect it, I'm going to keep on having <BR>&gt;that beer in my larder.<BR><BR>Alternatively, Mr. Newman can trade that IOU to someone else (for whatever <BR>item, service, or other thing of value they agree upon) who thinks he might <BR>be able to trade it to someone else etc, etc, until it winds up in the <BR>hands of someone living in or visiting your town.&nbsp; And as the IOU is for <BR>"bearer", they can turn up on your doorstep and ask for that beer.<BR><BR>This is how currency works. :)&nbsp; And that about exhausts MY knowledge of the <BR>black art known as "economics".<BR><BR>(Incidentally, Hans, aren't you worried that Peter might start printing out <BR>hundreds, even thousands of copies of that IOU - minting his own <BR>Hans-braus, basically?&nbsp; If enough holders try to negotiate their currency <BR>at once, you could soon find yourself out of specie.)<BR><BR><BR>- --------------<BR>Kelly St.Clair&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "'Cause you've got Trouble<BR>kellys@efn.org&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Right here in fair Verona<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; With a capital T that rhymes with D<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; That stands for Duel..."<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:47:54 -0800<BR>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>At 10:12 PM -0800 3/7/01, John Lambert wrote:<BR>&gt; I've always provided for the existance of breeds of Vargr. I also<BR>&gt; seem to recall some canon statements supporting the idea. As flexible<BR>&gt; as the canine species is, it would be able to adjust rapidly to suit<BR>&gt; the environments of different worlds, maybe several times on each<BR>&gt; world. There was a show, I think on Discovery (maybe the same one<BR>&gt; that was on the BBC), tracing the spread of canines across the globe<BR>&gt; (independent of the human-dog association) and showing how they<BR>&gt; changed size, coat, metabolism, circulation patterns, etc. to adapt<BR>&gt; to each new environmental opening.<BR><BR>Digest Group Publications did this in Vilani and Vargr.&nbsp; There were <BR>the sub-species of Urzaeng Vargr who were larger and stronger <BR>than normal (STR &amp; END 2d+2, DEX &amp; INT 2d-1). In the book there <BR>were supposed to have originally be bred by the Ancients for <BR>menial work and guard duty.&nbsp; THey also described an exceedingly <BR>rare&nbsp; pygmy sub-species (the Kokasha) and a wacky blind psionic <BR>sub-species.&nbsp; I really liked the Urzaeng and the Kokasha, but the <BR>Roth Thokken (the blind psis) were perhaps a bit too odd.<BR><BR>All these sub-species were small minorities and the only one that <BR>were at all common were the Urzaeng.&nbsp; I'd say maybe ~10% of <BR>Vargr are minor sub-species and around 95% of those are are <BR>Urzaeng.<BR><BR>On a similar note, in the MT Journal DPG also described an <BR>interesting human minor race pair of the Barnai and the Feskals of <BR>the Florian League (of the Trojan Reach sector).&nbsp; These were two <BR>human minor races that originated on one world.&nbsp; One was small, <BR>very smart and not terribly strong, the others were big and dumb (in <BR>the description the dumb ones sounded on the level of maybe <BR>homo erectus or maybe even less (ie substantially lower <BR>intellectual capacity, intermediate between chimps and us).&nbsp; The <BR>cool part was the League was a strict democracy and neither group <BR>was oppressed or enslaved.&nbsp; IIRC, the two species were not <BR>interfertile.&nbsp; These were described as an Ancient genetic <BR>experiment rather than natural evolution.&nbsp; <BR><BR>However, it is certainly possible that there might be a minor human <BR>race where simply hadn't evolved very far mentally.&nbsp; The brain of a <BR>homo erectus was about 0.75% the size of a modern humans.&nbsp; <BR>This doesn't mean they were dumber, since among humans brain <BR>size certainly doesn't correlate well with intelligence.&nbsp; However, <BR>they might well be honestly less capable of abstract thought and <BR>complex reasoning (maybe rolling their INT score on 1D6+1or even <BR>1D3+1).&nbsp; Running into some corporation who was enslaving the <BR>members of such a minor race could make for an interesting <BR>adventure dealing with complex moral points (like the dividing line <BR>between slaves and domestic animals). <BR><BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3781<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xb02.mx.aol.com (rly-xb02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.103]) by air-xb05.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Mar 2001 02:49:15 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xb02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Mar 2001 02:48:34 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id CAA35843;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 02:48:11 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 8 Mar 2001 02:47:34 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id CAA35791<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 02:47:34 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 02:47:34 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103080747.CAA35791@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3781<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, March 8 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3782<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: Scout Brew....<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Dogs.<BR>RE: Breeds of Vargr &amp; Human Selectivity (or the lack thereof)<BR>RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR>RE: Intro<BR>RE: Astrogation design<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Cordite loops<BR>RE: [still way off topic] License to Program<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR>RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>RE: Intro<BR>Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:55:38 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, DaveShayne wrote:<BR>[on dogs and humans]<BR>&gt; The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener<BR>&gt; senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the higher<BR>&gt; intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be their own best<BR>&gt; friends.<BR><BR>Reminds me of the Mog called Barf, who is his best friend. (Half-man,<BR>half-dog.)<BR><BR>Yes, he might be a good Vargr example...<BR><BR>- -- <BR>+++++++++[&gt;+++++++++&lt;-]&gt;-.&lt;+++++[&gt;+++&lt;-]++&gt;++.&lt;++[&gt;++++&lt;-]+&gt;+.&lt;++[&gt;----<BR>&lt;-]&gt;-.&gt;+++[&gt;++++++++++&lt;-]++&gt;++pare@iki.fi&lt;+[&gt;++++&lt;-]&gt;+.-&gt;+[&gt;++++[&lt;&lt;---&gt;<BR>&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;.&gt;&gt;+++++++[&lt;++++++++++&gt;-]++++[&lt;+++++&gt;-]&lt;-.&gt;[-]&gt;+++[&gt;++[&lt;&lt;&lt;----&gt;&gt;<BR>&lt;&gt;&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;&lt;.+.&gt;[-]++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;.++.[-]&gt;[-]++++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;++.&gt;&gt;++[&gt;++[&gt;-&lt;-]&lt;--]<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:08:35 -0800<BR>From: Evyn MacDude &lt;wmacdude@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Scout Brew....<BR><BR>William Lane wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Anyway I hope i dont get stoned. I just think it would be a blast to have a<BR>&gt; "Scout Brew" T-Shirt<BR><BR>Better yet being from the non tee shirt crowd A Ball Cap.<BR><BR>- --<BR>"Fortes fortuna juvat"<BR><BR>Evyn<BR><BR>"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; This day shall gentle his condition."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -- William Shakespeare, King Henry the Fifth, IV:iii:60-63<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:21:53 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; Peter Newman writes:<BR>&gt; &gt;Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;Peter Newman writes:<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;Are you trying to tell me that when you walk into a store with Imperial<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;Credits and the shopkeeper refuses to accept them that the Imperial<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;government is going to let them get away with it?<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;The question is moot, because the conditions doesn't exist. There IS trade<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;between the planets of the Imperium and consequently people CAN buy stuff <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;they want with Imperial credits.<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;You are evading the question. The question is not if buyers can buy with<BR>&gt; &gt;Imperial credits but if sellers must accept Imperial credits.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I'm not evading the question, I'm telling you that it is meaningless because it<BR>&gt; presupposes a condition that doesn't exist. It is on a par with questions like<BR>&gt; "If Strephon was a Vargr, would he be able to make Brzk obey him?"<BR><BR>Let me try to make myself clear. Traveller is a role playing<BR>game. The question I am asking is "Suppose that the players go <BR>into the only bar on a low population planet within the Imperium <BR>and order a drink. The bartender requires payment in advance. For <BR>some strange and illogical reason of his own he will not take Imperial <BR>credits as payment, despite the fact that he could spend them easily. <BR>Can the characters get Imperial law enforcement agents to make<BR>the bartender take their credits or are they S.O.L.?"<BR><BR>The question I am asking is not if Imperial credits are generally<BR>accepted, the question I am asking is "Must Imperial credits,<BR>as a matter of law, be accepted?" I am simply stating that my<BR>reading of canon about the fall of the Second Imperium and T4<BR>canon about the formation of the Third Imperium make me believe<BR>that the Third Imperium seems like the sort of place that would<BR>require its people to take Imperial credits. Your mileage may<BR>vary.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;The most expensive goods the Imperium uses are probably capital class<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;starships. Canon establishes that many types of starships are built at<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;many locations. <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;What's your point? If that isn't an example of the Imperium taking its taxes<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;out in kind then I don't know what is.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;I'm asserting that the most expensive thing they buy can lift itself off of a<BR>&gt; &gt;planetary surface. Thus it need not be "physically lifted off the planetary<BR>&gt; &gt;surface and moved elsewhere" but rather it transports itself.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; And what difference does that make? <BR><BR>If you have to move a box full of something across a few score<BR>parsecs you're going to have to pay through the nose to do so,<BR>typically CR 1,000 per ton per jump. If you move a 500,000 ton<BR>starship one jump you don't usually have to pay Cr 500,000,000<BR>to do so.<BR><BR>If you want to move that brand new Tigress that you just had built<BR>in Core Sector out to one of the borders all you have to pay for<BR>is crew salary, maintenance and unrefined fuel (you could even skip<BR>the fuel costs by using a handy gas giant). Therefore the fact that<BR>the one of the most expensive things the Imperium ever buys (capital <BR>ships) can move themselves for way less (per parsec/ton) than other<BR>goods means that it does not (on average) cost the Imperium as<BR>much to move stuff as it would if they shipped it all as freight.<BR>This may make a big monetary difference.<BR><BR>&gt; You're claiming that if the planet gives the<BR>&gt; subsector duke a sackful of Imperial credits, the planet is poorer by that<BR>&gt; amount. <BR><BR>No, I never intended to claim that. What I'm saying is say that<BR>the government of Regina has a sack full of money. They could<BR>either use this money to go buy stuff they want _or_ they could<BR>use that money to pay their taxes. When they chose to pay their taxes<BR>they incur the opportunity cost of not being able to spend that<BR>money on other stuff.<BR><BR>&gt; I'm claiming that unless the subsector duke actually shows up and<BR>&gt; demands goods for those credits then the planet isn't poorer by one jot. That<BR>&gt; the goods can move by themselves is completely irrelevant to that argument.<BR><BR>The planet is poorer because if they had not given the credits to<BR>the Imperium they could have blown it all on something else.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;In other words, they buy goods and transport them off-world. Just as I said.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;No. I am asserting that they are more likely to have them<BR>&gt; &gt;transported off world than to transport them off world themselves.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A distinction without any meaning. <BR><BR>The point, as I explained above, had to do with the cost per<BR>ton to do so.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;No because the Imperial Credit can be, and is, used for internal<BR>&gt; &gt;commerce as well as external commerce. Thus the Imperial Credit<BR>&gt; &gt;serves as a medium of exchange as well.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A lot of people has the same trouble you have distinguishing between the wealth<BR>&gt; and the markers. It's an illusion that works as long as everybody believes in<BR>&gt; it. But ask anyone who's found a fortune in Confederate money how rich they are.<BR><BR>I am quite familiar with the difference, thank you very much.<BR>While I don't want to turn this into ECON 101 I will simply note<BR>that most modern economists believe that money has several uses.<BR>I was asserting that the use of money in this case was an a <BR>medium of exchange.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;And if they can't use those credit to buy stuff on another planet then the<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;Imperium is not good for the debt. You're arguing in circles. The reason<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;people accept Crimps is precisely because they know they CAN buy stuff from <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;other worlds with it. If they couldn't, they wouldn't accept them.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Not exactly. What I am asserting is that because the Imperium is willing to<BR>&gt; &gt;kill people who don't accept the Imperial credit this provides an incentive<BR>&gt; &gt;for people to accept the Imperial credit.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; You do realise that you have no evidence to support your CLAIM that the <BR>&gt; Imperium is willing to kill people who won't accept Imperial credits.<BR><BR>If you mean a direct quote saying so than no I don't. However<BR>canon (The Warrant of Restoration) establishes that trade is very<BR>important to the Imperium and that the Imperium reserves the right<BR>to do what it wants. Therefore I am asserting that canon supports<BR>my claim that they have the power and the right to kill people<BR>who do not accept Imperial credits. Canon also establishes that<BR>when people and governments do things the Imeprium does not like<BR>(using nukes, etc) the Imperium sometimes kills them for doing <BR>so (Imperial Intervention). Therefore _if_ the Imperium cares<BR>enough about people not taking Imperial credits they might indeed<BR>kill over it,<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;For a member world to say that is clearly rebellious. There is a very good<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;reason why the Imperial navy has weapons of mass destruction and it is not<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;the Zhodani. <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;Read your MT.<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;In the interest of keeping this civil I'll refrain from replying to this the<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;way it so richly deserves.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;If, as usual, you're going to be snide about this I may as well <BR>&gt; &gt;note that I've rarely known you to be civil and this is not one <BR>&gt; &gt;of those times.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; To imply that the MT books support your contentions and that <BR>&gt; the only reason I'm arguing against them must be that I haven't <BR>&gt; read them properly is extremely rude of you. I consider my gentle <BR>&gt; reproach quite restrained. <BR><BR>On the contrary by asserting that my argument was not worthy of<BR>response you were denigrating my comments, moreover by declining<BR>to respond (as is your right, your time is your own) but never less<BR>asserting that, were you willing to be uncivil, you could rebut<BR>them you eliminated the possibility that I could rebut your rebuttal.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; Perhaps you should look<BR>&gt; up 'civil' in the dictionary. I don't think it means what you think it means.<BR><BR>civil -<BR><BR>8. In that social condition which accompanies and is involved <BR>in citizenship or life in communities; not barbarous; civilized;<BR>advanced in the arts of life<BR><BR>9. Educated; well bred; refined; polished, 'polite'<BR><BR>the OED.<BR><BR>By claiming that an argument you were not going to deign to make<BR>would rebut my argument you suggested that my argument, and by <BR>extension me, was not worthy of your response. I found this behavior <BR>to be the antithesis of 'polite'. <BR><BR>&gt; &gt;You constantly project the patronizing attitude that you know Traveller better<BR>&gt; &gt;than others. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; While I'm sorry to hear that I come across as patronizing and willing to try to<BR>&gt; remedy that, I don't think being patronizing is incompatible with being civil.<BR><BR>I disagree. This is not some University of Traveller in which you<BR>have a Doctoral Degree in Traveller canon and can therefore claim<BR>a position of authority from which to look down on others. Nor is<BR>this some Feudal Nobility in which Sir Ranke-Madsen rightfully<BR>claims superiority. Patronizing implies a patronage relationship,<BR>when no such relationship exists it is _very_ uncivil, especially<BR>to many Americans.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;MT canon clearly establishes that the Imperial Navy did use it's weapons on<BR>&gt; &gt;its people. It establishes that at least billions of people died as a result.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Yes, but it doesn't say that they did this because those planets refused to<BR>&gt; accept Imperial credits. And unless that was what you were implying, the whole<BR>&gt; argument makes no sense at all in connection with this discussion.<BR><BR>Let me try to connect it. The Rebellion happened because Dulinor<BR>would not accept Strephon's authority (yes that's a bit simplified).<BR>Therefore the rebellion was about the extent of imperial power.<BR>I am asserting that canon (the Warrant of Restoration) gives the<BR>Imperium the authority (supremacy clause) to do what they feel is <BR>necessary. Canon (library data and numerous adventures) also establishes <BR>that the Imperial government sometimes uses that authority. It also<BR>establishes that currency problems caused the fall of the Rule of<BR>man (library data). It also establishes (Milieu 0 Campaign) that<BR>when the Third Imperium was put together Cleon wanted to avoid<BR>the problems of the First and Second Empires.<BR><BR>Therefore it seems to me that the Imperium would not let people<BR>not take Imperial Credits. It also seemed to me (and is canon) <BR>that when people do things the Imperial government does not like<BR>they sometimes kill them. Therefore not accepting Imperial credits<BR>is one of the things on the list that of things the Imperium might<BR>kill people for. I am suggesting that this power was probably used<BR>on at least one occasion during the Rebellion.<BR><BR>&gt; Look, let's start again. It's obvious that i've failed to explain myself<BR>&gt; adequately. Let me try a different tack.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I'm going to promise you a beer. I mean that sincerely. Show up on my doorstep<BR>&gt; and I'll take you out and buy you a beer. Now, doesn't that quench your thirst<BR>&gt; remarkably? I didn't think it would. You've just recieved an electronic <BR>&gt;transfer of funds, an electronic IOU:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; - ----------------------<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; IOU one beer.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hans Rancke&nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; |_____________________|<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Now, you can print that out and frame it, but unless you actually come over to<BR>&gt; Denmark and collect, you're not one bit better off than before. <BR><BR>I don't have to come to Denmark, all I have to do is sell it<BR>on EBay to someone who is already in Denmark or is already planning<BR>to go to Denmark. One beer is typically worth more than enough<BR>stamps to mail a piece of paper the size of the above IOU to<BR>most locations.<BR><BR>&gt; And I'm not a<BR>&gt; bit worse off. I've got a beer in my larder (left behind by a visitor), and<BR>&gt; unless you show up one day to collect it, I'm going to keep on having that beer<BR>&gt; in my larder. <BR><BR>The cost of keeping that beer in your larder is that you can't sell<BR>or give it to someone else. Similarly if the government of Regina<BR>pays their taxes they can't then go spend those same credits on<BR>something else. Opportunity cost is real is all I'm saying.<BR><BR>&gt; In the same way, a planet can send a message to the subsector <BR>&gt; duke that they owe him 10 billion credits, but unless he shows <BR>&gt; up to collect ships or supplies to the tune of 10 billion credits, <BR>&gt; the planet is not one decicred poorer.<BR><BR>1) If they merely say that they owe him the ten billion credits than<BR>no they are not one decicred poorer. If _however_ they actually<BR>set the ten billion credits aside than they can't use them to<BR>buy anything else with. That's all I'm saying.<BR><BR>2) He can sell their IOU to someone else who can then stop<BR>buy and get the stuff. Similarly I could sell your IOU one<BR>beer on EBay. The costs of communication and transport in<BR>the Traveller universe are a bit different than on Earth<BR>today. If you wanted to claim that an IOU one beer on Regina<BR>would be effectively worthless on the Solomani Rim I'd be inclined<BR>to agree, but an IOU ten billion credits is worth the cost<BR>of transport.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:23:45 -0000<BR>From: "Jeff Rowse" &lt;jeffrowse@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs.<BR><BR>Ha!&nbsp; All my cats need to do is delicately insert tooth and claw into my foot <BR>and I know *exactly* what they want - be it food, letting out or just more <BR>space on the bed.<BR>If I am really lucky, they may sing to me...<BR><BR>Jeff.<BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:55:25 -0000<BR>From: "Michael R. Blair" &lt;michael@carrickfergus.schoolzone.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Breeds of Vargr &amp; Human Selectivity (or the lack thereof)<BR><BR>I toyed around with the presence on a frontier world of a 'lost' varient of<BR>Vargr - bigger and dumber. Something strange and scarey in the wilderness<BR>beyond the settlement.<BR><BR>Of course isolation and small gene pool could probably account for this in a<BR>few millenia, we don't need the ancients for everything.<BR><BR>Otherwise I got the impression that vargr were quite homogeneus, different<BR>pelt colours and more cultures than you could count (oops, there goes<BR>another one) but to use an old racist sterotype maybe all vargr look the<BR>same to us? Though I doubt it - the human experience of dogs again.<BR><BR>As to interbreeding between humanoid subraces, humans seemingly will attempt<BR>to couple with anything vaguely humanoid and warm - the degree of<BR>selectivity depending on desperation so at somepoint some lonely band of<BR>hunters has probably gang raped just about every hominid species they came<BR>in contact with. A cynical view of humanity but probably realistic.<BR><BR>Michael<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:05:38 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al<BR><BR>Patrik Holmstrom wrote :-<BR>&gt; However that period was ended quite abruptly by the long night not<BR>&gt; many years after the Nth interstellar war (and the spreading of<BR>&gt; Solomani humans). The situation would be a lot worse with TL0-6<BR>&gt; medicine, right?<BR><BR>Jenner vaccinated against smallpox at ~TTL 3.<BR>The pathophysiology of haemolytic disease of the newborn was figured out in<BR>the ~TTL 5-6 period.<BR><BR>So local technology may be capable of dealing with the problem, but there<BR>are bigger worries (lack of sanitation, for example) at the TTL range you've<BR>posted.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:13:12 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Intro<BR><BR>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>&gt; From: Jeff Hopper &lt;jeff37923@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Does anyone know of a set of rules governing<BR>&gt; &gt; radiation exposure and its damaging effects for CT?<BR>&gt; &gt; I've been able to find a kludge for TNE based on<BR>&gt; &gt; Twilight:2000, but that is all. If anyone knows of<BR>&gt; &gt; any, please let me know.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; DGP wrote some rules for this in Traveller's Digest or<BR>&gt; Megatraveller Journal, but I think they apply to MT.&nbsp; <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This would be a good newbie essay.&nbsp; <BR><BR>It was in Digest 15, and it was for MT.&nbsp; However,&nbsp; as&nbsp; MT&nbsp; is&nbsp; an<BR>evolution on CT[1] (unlike TNE which is&nbsp; a&nbsp; completely&nbsp; different<BR>ruleset) it should be fairly straight forward to&nbsp; translate&nbsp; back<BR>into CT terms.<BR><BR>[1] = 90% of the radiation rules just require understanding DGP's<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; task system which was originally developed as an add-on&nbsp; to<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CT.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:23:34 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Astrogation design<BR><BR>Mark Preston wrote:<BR>&gt; Does your software need a link from sector&lt;--&gt;subsector&lt;--&gt;system<BR>&gt; then Stalin? I've not included that in the XML for data sharing,<BR>&gt; but will if it will be needed.<BR><BR>My program is a 'drill-down viewer' (much as Galactic is) so I do<BR>need to have a sector --&gt; subsector --&gt; system linkage.&nbsp; The&nbsp; way<BR>I set up my data structures a reverse link was possible,&nbsp; but&nbsp; so<BR>far I don't see a need for a reverse link.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:54 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;3AA74F2F.A9A865D7@gci.net&gt;<BR>Greetings Peter and the rest of you dear people.<BR><BR>On payment, UK law states that: -<BR><BR>1. By offering to sell, and posting prices for, an item, there is an <BR>implicit contract the terms of which are met by<BR><BR>2. You offering ('tendering' is the technical term) payment of at least <BR>the value asked for the item using coin of the realm - which is called <BR>'legal tender' erm, because it is the thing you legally are supposed to <BR>tender.<BR><BR>If the shopkeeper refuses to take 'legal tender' in exchange for goods he <BR>has on sale, he is in breach of the law. Unless he says, when you come in, <BR>that he is closed, or doesn't want to sell to YOU.<BR><BR>They are allowed to set terms on other forms of payment: cheques, <BR>credit/debit cards, charge cards, etc. About the only thing with real hard <BR>cash is that they can refuse to accept a really massive pile of small <BR>coins (e.g. paying a hundred pounds in two-pence coins!).<BR><BR>If the same held good in the 3I, that the Imperial Credit is 'legal <BR>tender', then the barman would have to accept it unless he decided to <BR>ban you from the premises (wise move with most TRAVELLER parties I've <BR>refereed!).<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:54 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Cordite loops<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;B6CC4326.87A2%cheryl@travellercentral.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>Getting hold of det-cord may be easy in the US, at least in some states. <BR>Not so easy in the UK. Probably could if I had to, but it might not be <BR>strictly legal :-)<BR><BR>Another thing to play with when I come visit!<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR>(Pining for things that go bang)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:27:09 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: [still way off topic] License to Program<BR><BR>Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>&gt; Peter Trevor wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; what's a "pointer"?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Assuming you're being serious,<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>My question was serious, but my tone was not&nbsp; (I&nbsp; was&nbsp; trying&nbsp; to<BR>counterpoint&nbsp; your&nbsp; suggestion&nbsp; that&nbsp; a&nbsp; good&nbsp; understanding&nbsp;&nbsp; of<BR>pointers would benefit programmers of higher-level&nbsp; languages&nbsp; by<BR>pointing out that I&nbsp; have&nbsp; been&nbsp; a&nbsp; programmer&nbsp; in&nbsp; a&nbsp; commercial<BR>environment for some time without explicitly using pointers).<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; There. You have now learned about pointers "on the street". Now <BR>&gt; you can educate me. What language/languages have you been using? <BR><BR>My core skill is good ol' fashioned&nbsp; COBOL.&nbsp; Not&nbsp; a&nbsp; particularly<BR>sexy language, I admit, and almost useless for graphics and GUIs.<BR>But still in widespread use, still being used for new development<BR>of bespoke applications.&nbsp; I'm also a Powerhouse programmer (a 4GL<BR>with the same old fashioned 80x23 character display).<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; How do those languages best allow you to write a single subroutine <BR>&gt; to manipulate similarly-structured records which come from different<BR>&gt; sources? <BR><BR>In COBOL you'd code it like this ...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; CALL "SUBR1" USING SOURCE1_RECORD<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; CALL "SUBR1" USING SOURCE2_RECORD<BR><BR>Then in the linkage section of SUBR1 you define the common record<BR>structure which maps SUBR1's references onto the&nbsp; dataspace.&nbsp; You<BR>can specify if each parameter is by reference or by value, but it<BR>defaults&nbsp; to&nbsp; by&nbsp; reference.&nbsp; You&nbsp; don't&nbsp; need&nbsp; to&nbsp; define&nbsp;&nbsp; your<BR>pointers, that is all handled for you behind the scenes.<BR><BR>Powerhouse dosen't really have the concept of subroutines.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Commercially I've used ...<BR><BR>Machines:&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; DEC Alpha, DEC VAX-11, DEC PDP-11, IBM3090, MDISL<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sequoia M9420 &amp; M9430<BR><BR>O/S:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Open/VMS, VMS, Unix, TSO, RT-11, PICK<BR><BR>File Systems: RMS, RDB (now Oracle) with RDO and SQL<BR><BR>4GL:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Powerhouse, ALL (Pro-IV variant)<BR><BR>3GL:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; COBOL, DCL, Data/BASIC, RatFor, PROC<BR><BR>...&nbsp; and&nbsp; at&nbsp; home:&nbsp; PC&nbsp; and&nbsp; CBM-8032&nbsp; stuff&nbsp; (everything&nbsp;&nbsp; from<BR>programming in GW-BASIC, writing HTML without a&nbsp; WYSISWG&nbsp; editor,<BR>setting up a home LAN, and rebuilding my&nbsp; PC,&nbsp; all&nbsp; self&nbsp; tought.<BR>Now teaching myself VB.<BR><BR>(I did do a courses in Pascal and Macro-11 back in 1984, and I've<BR>just remembered Pascal used pointers.&nbsp; But I havn't used it since<BR>then, so I forgot.)<BR><BR>Okay, so now you know the background I'm coming from&nbsp; (except&nbsp; to<BR>add that in&nbsp; most&nbsp; commercial&nbsp; environments&nbsp; I've&nbsp; been&nbsp; in&nbsp;&nbsp; the<BR>"install it now, fix it later"&nbsp; mentality&nbsp; is&nbsp; unfortunately&nbsp; the<BR>norm ... which is why I don't see the "VB&nbsp; encourages&nbsp; bad&nbsp; code"<BR>issue as very significant).<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:16:40 GMT<BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;game. The question I am asking is "Suppose that the players go <BR>&gt;into the only bar on a low population planet within the Imperium <BR>&gt;and order a drink. The bartender requires payment in advance. For <BR>&gt;some strange and illogical reason of his own he will not take Imperial <BR>&gt;credits as payment, despite the fact that he could spend them easily. <BR>&gt;Can the characters get Imperial law enforcement agents to make<BR>&gt;the bartender take their credits or are they S.O.L.?"<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>My Cr0.02:&nbsp; the Imperium would normally require that a world accept<BR>the CrImp as legal tender for off-world trade, as one of the<BR>conditions of membership of the Imperium.<BR><BR>The currency that the world uses in its own internal economy is a<BR>matter for local sovereignity.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Some worlds may choose to use the CrImp as their own legal tender - in<BR>which case the bartender would be breaking planetary (not Imperial)<BR>law by not accepting your money.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Some would allow it to be freely converted into and out of the local<BR>currency - which means that the bartender *might* accept the money,<BR>depending on his calculation of what it was worth - considering<BR>exchange rates, the commission charged by the bank to convert it into<BR>his own currency, and whether he can be bothered with the time and<BR>hassle getting it converted.<BR><BR>On other worlds, it might be illegal for private citizens to hold<BR>CrImps - these are reserved for government use.&nbsp; Only those people or<BR>organisations specifically licenced to deal with off-worlders would be<BR>permitted a supply of CrImps, and they would be carefully accounted<BR>for. (Think strict customs inspections, currency declarations, etc<BR>whenever you try and cross the starport extrality line).&nbsp; So in this<BR>situation, the bartender would be commiting a crime if he took your<BR>money.<BR><BR>So no, private citizens do not have to accept CrImps under Imperial<BR>law.&nbsp; If it was the planetary government _itself_ that was refusing to<BR>accept CrImps in settlement of a debt, or to allow offworlders to<BR>convert CrImps into its own local currency, *then* the Imperium might<BR>take interest - since the world would be in breach of its treaty of<BR>membership of the Imperium.&nbsp; The local Duke could consider that to be<BR>rebellion, so in that case yes, the Imperial Navy and Marines might<BR>turn up in orbit over the planet...<BR><BR>Stephen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:15:06 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>&gt; &lt;&lt;...i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf.&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; This brings up the question:&nbsp; Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to be <BR>&gt; a comic genius or a racist stereotype?<BR><BR>Tragic hero.<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:42:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>John Lambert writes:<BR>&gt;We've discussed species separating into unique subspecies which develop <BR>&gt;unique differences. Does the inverse occur, where two unique, but <BR>&gt;interfertile subspecies interbreed and merge to the point one is completely <BR>&gt;absorbed into the other? There would be some additional genetic diversity <BR>&gt;introduced into the remaining population, but maybe not that pronounced. <BR>&gt;Could that be what happened to Neanderthal?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This is, in fact, one of the hypotheses that is being considered.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:46:11 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>DaveShayne writes:<BR>&gt;The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener<BR>&gt;senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the higher<BR>&gt;intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be their own best<BR>&gt;friends.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Dogs certainly have a more sensitive sense of smell, and can hear<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; higher frequency sounds than humans, but don't sell us short.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Humans have excellent vision, probably better than that of dogs<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (though this is difficult to determine).<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:49:35 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Intro<BR><BR>Jeff Hopper writes:<BR>&gt; Hello.<BR>&gt;My name is Jeff Hopper, a Traveller player who<BR>&gt;started back in 1983 with CT and have followed it<BR>&gt;through to the present. I'm an ex-Navy nuke who is<BR>&gt;living in Tennessee building hazardous duty robots for<BR>&gt;a living. I just wanted to stop lurking around this<BR>&gt;site and say "Howdy!" to ya'all.<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Howdy!<BR><BR>&gt;Does anyone know of a set of rules governing<BR>&gt;radiation exposure and its damaging effects for CT?<BR>&gt;I've been able to find a kludge for TNE based on<BR>&gt;Twilight:2000, but that is all. If anyone knows of<BR>&gt;any, please let me know.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I believe that Dr. O'Connor, the TML medico,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; has developded something like this.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:54:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>Charles H writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;Total layman's question:&nbsp; are the different breeds of dog, like<BR>&gt;&gt;chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?<BR>&gt;The different breeds of dogs are all the same species (Canis<BR>&gt;familiaris), some call them seperate sub-species.<BR>&gt;ObTrav: Alien Modules 6 calls them seperate sub-species.<BR>&gt;Dogs, wolves (Canis lupis), and coyotes (Canis latrans) are<BR>&gt;interfertile, and thus may be misclassified as seperate species.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Just to be fair to the taxonomists, even if they are<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; interfertile, and even if that applies to all populations<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and is complete (no reduction in viability of offspring),<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; considering them different species is not necessarily<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "misclassifying" them.&nbsp; Although we may accept the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "biological species concept" for use with humaniti in<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Traveller, it is not the universal definition in the Real<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; World (tm).<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3782<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-yd01.mx.aol.com (rly-yd01.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.1]) by air-yd01.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:58:46 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yd01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:58:23 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA51912;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:57:41 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:54:08 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id JAA51812<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:54:08 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:54:08 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103081454.JAA51812@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3782<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, March 8 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3783<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re : Radiation rules (was : Intro)<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Imperial and local currency<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Imperial and local currency<BR>RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Latin in the Far Future (well, maybe in 2300)<BR>Re: FFS2 design characteristics<BR>RE: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Cutter Books<BR>Re: Wealth<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 10:08:11 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>John Snead writes:<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR>&gt;The brain of a <BR>&gt;homo erectus was about 0.75% the size of a modern humans.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A typo, I presume.&nbsp; 0.75% of 1400 ml (the approximate<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mean for modern humans) is 10.5 ml.&nbsp; :)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The figure that I am familiar with is 1000 ml for H.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; erectus from about 1,000,000 years ago (near 75%).<BR><BR>&gt;This doesn't mean they were dumber, since among humans brain <BR>&gt;size certainly doesn't correlate well with intelligence.&nbsp; However, <BR>&gt;they might well be honestly less capable of abstract thought and <BR>&gt;complex reasoning (maybe rolling their INT score on 1D6+1or even <BR>&gt;1D3+1).<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Very important point.&nbsp; Women have (on average) smaller<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; brains than men, but there is no reason to think that one<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; sex is more intelligent than the other (though there may<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; well be average differences in certain aspects of<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "intelligence", with each sex approaching problems<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; differently).&nbsp; On a broader scale, it seams pretty obvious<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that among species there is some relationship between<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; brain size and intelligence (though we cannot even<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; define intelligence very well, so we must be careful<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; here).<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:09:24 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>On 8 Mar 2001, at 1:56, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>&gt; A distinction without any meaning. The point is still that the Imperium has no<BR>&gt; joy whatsoever of owning a crate of Crimp notes unless they plan to use them to<BR>&gt; buy goods (or services).<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Not to interrupt a serious debate, but...<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; "Crimp notes" - I like that.&nbsp; Sounds like good slang (though I first <BR>thought of a crimping tool and then 'cliff notes' before my mind <BR>identified the term. :)&nbsp; Has it been around long or did you just come <BR>up with it?<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&gt; A lot of people has the same trouble you have distinguishing between the wealth<BR>&gt; and the markers. It's an illusion that works as long as everybody believes in<BR>&gt; it. But ask anyone who's found a fortune in Confederate money how rich they are.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Or those old Rule of Man commemorative coins... :)<BR><BR>&nbsp; I'm no economics expert so please forgive what may be elementary <BR>questions.&nbsp;&nbsp; What is the definition of wealth?&nbsp; Is it physical goods? <BR>Land (productive land = i.e. has the ability to produce goods and <BR>services)? Stockpiles of valuables?&nbsp;&nbsp; Or is wealth anything that has <BR>'value' - meaning someone somewhere does or would want to exchange <BR>something to obtain it?&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; (Does the 3I have a "Fort Knox" equivalent?)<BR><BR>&nbsp; Money started as minted valuable metals, valuable in and of <BR>themselves, progressed to paper currency (the promisory note - a <BR>promise to give the bearer something valuable for it),&nbsp; to credits <BR>(electronic tally sheets of accounts), IIRC.&nbsp; I remember the CT <BR>adventure with 'soggy Crimp bills' and didn't like the idea that paper <BR>money existed 3500 years from now - though now I can say I certainly <BR>wouldn't want a totally electronic economy, but that gets into issues <BR>of privacy, etc., for another thread.&nbsp; I was wondering if there's canon <BR>stating whether or not the Imperial credit is tied to any kind of 'gold <BR>standard'?&nbsp; <BR><BR>&nbsp; I don't know the pros and cons such a system but I just had the idea: <BR>what if Crimps had embedded a tiny amount of platinum or something - <BR>then perhaps they have value in and of themselves and they wouldn't <BR>necessarily have to be used in offworld trade to have worth.&nbsp; But, it's <BR>just the silly idea of a tired morning mind that needs caffeine...<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&gt; You do realise that you have no evidence to support your CLAIM that the Imperium<BR>&gt; is willing to kill people who won't accept Imperial credits.<BR><BR>&nbsp; As (Hans?) mentioned, I could see force being threatened during the <BR>last years of the 2I as it falls apart after the one major bank fails <BR>to honor (an Imperial?) draft note or something to that effect.<BR><BR>&nbsp; I could also see the threat of force being used in the first wild and <BR>wooly years of the 3I as it's expanding and convincing worlds to join <BR>or stay joined, but in the last 500+ years I wouldn't think it likely.<BR>Wouldn't most planets be pretty well settled into the trade <BR>arrangements?&nbsp; (Though perhaps there are interesting singletons or <BR>isolated pockets where the situation is different but that just makes <BR>for adventurous areas.)<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Even people who are willing to risk being killed will accept the credit<BR>&gt; &gt;because they know that others will accept it or risk being killed.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; People accept Imperial credits because they can buy something for them, not<BR>&gt; because they are afraid not to. And the reason they can buy stuff with Crimps is<BR>&gt; that stuff is, indeed, traded between planets. If that wasn't the case, they<BR>&gt; wouldn't be able to buy stuff with their Crimp.<BR><BR>On those worlds with a strong Imperial culture, wouldn't the local <BR>population use Imperial credits to transact local business?&nbsp; Sure they <BR>could have local currency (reflecting the local distribution of <BR>wealth?) and those with strong local cultures probably do, but I think <BR>it would make things easier if the world is strongly Imperial and/or <BR>does a lot of interstellar trade.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Rob D.<BR><BR>'Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.'<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 02:21:16 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Radiation rules (was : Intro)<BR><BR>Jeff Hopper wrote :-<BR>&gt;Does anyone know of a set of rules governing<BR>&gt;radiation exposure and its damaging effects for CT?<BR>&gt;I've been able to find a kludge for TNE based on<BR>&gt;Twilight:2000, but that is all. If anyone knows of<BR>&gt;any, please let me know.<BR><BR>I am not sure what approach CT takes to resolve tasks.<BR><BR>There are a set of medical rules which can be adapted to any of the other<BR>Trav task systems at Freelance Traveller :-<BR>http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/features/rules/index.htm<BR><BR>It covers most injurious agents, not just radiation.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 19:01:23 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Rob Davenport wrote:<BR>&gt; of privacy, etc., for another thread.&nbsp; I was wondering if there's canon <BR>&gt; stating whether or not the Imperial credit is tied to any kind of 'gold <BR>&gt; standard'?&nbsp; <BR><BR>The only place I remember reading where Imperial Credit is explained is<BR>Library Data. MT version does not say anything about this.<BR><BR>I have never thought much about this, IMTU IC is just legal tender and one<BR>can use it everywhere inside the Imperial borders. This is probably just<BR>expected, as I am a techology student, not economy...<BR><BR>- -- <BR>+++++++++[&gt;+++++++++&lt;-]&gt;-.&lt;+++++[&gt;+++&lt;-]++&gt;++.&lt;++[&gt;++++&lt;-]+&gt;+.&lt;++[&gt;----<BR>&lt;-]&gt;-.&gt;+++[&gt;++++++++++&lt;-]++&gt;++pare@iki.fi&lt;+[&gt;++++&lt;-]&gt;+.-&gt;+[&gt;++++[&lt;&lt;---&gt;<BR>&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;.&gt;&gt;+++++++[&lt;++++++++++&gt;-]++++[&lt;+++++&gt;-]&lt;-.&gt;[-]&gt;+++[&gt;++[&lt;&lt;&lt;----&gt;&gt;<BR>&lt;&gt;&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;&lt;.+.&gt;[-]++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;.++.[-]&gt;[-]++++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;++.&gt;&gt;++[&gt;++[&gt;-&lt;-]&lt;--]<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:06:57 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>Frank G. Pitt writes:<BR>&gt; Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; I've been a professional programmer since 1987,&nbsp; worked&nbsp; for&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; &gt; construction industry,&nbsp; automotive,&nbsp; telecoms,&nbsp; several&nbsp; merchant<BR>&gt; &gt; banks, software houses, and multinationals.&nbsp; My question is this:<BR>&gt; &gt; what's a "pointer"?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A block of memory, ontaining the memory address of some other block of<BR>&gt; memory.<BR><BR>Hm...I'd call a pointer 'a variable containing the address of a block of<BR>memory'.&nbsp; Several languages use pointer-like objects without calling them<BR>pointers, however -- for example, a 'new X' call in an object-oriented <BR>language returns what is functionally a pointer.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:40:35 -0800<BR>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; DaveShayne writes:<BR>&gt; &gt;The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener<BR>&gt; &gt;senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the<BR>&gt; &gt;higher intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be<BR>&gt; &gt;their own best friends.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Dogs certainly have a more sensitive sense of smell, and can<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; hear higher frequency sounds than humans, but don't sell us<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; short. Humans have excellent vision, probably better than that<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; of dogs (though this is difficult to determine).<BR><BR>Humans also have one of the best senses of touch in the entire <BR>animal kingdom, certainly far better than a dog's (since they lack <BR>the vast amount of brain space devoted to their paws that we have <BR>devoted to our hands).<BR><BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:57:53 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Imperial and local currency<BR><BR>This is an interesting discussion, and I wish I had been paying closer<BR>attention earlier.&nbsp; That won't stop me from commenting, of course.<BR><BR>What are the economic consequences to the Imperium of member states using<BR>their own currencies internally?&nbsp; I like the concept of a member state<BR>having the choice of using its own currency, which is part of its own<BR>internal autonomy.&nbsp; Would that harm the economy of the Imperium in any<BR>way?&nbsp; <BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:04:51 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>William Lane writes:<BR>&gt;-----------------------<BR>&gt;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&gt;|&nbsp; IOU one beer.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&gt;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&gt;| &nbsp; &nbsp; Hans Rancke&nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&gt;|_____________________|<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Now i just have to figure out how to get to Denmark! WOOT! im one beer<BR>&gt;richer 8P<BR><BR>Well, if you were Peter, you would be one beer richer IF you could get to<BR>Denmark. The point I was trying to make was that unless he can get to Denmark<BR>even Peter is not, actually, a beer richer, even though I own him one.<BR><BR>And William Lane continued:<BR>&gt;DOH im missing the whole point of this this discussion. If i can find<BR>&gt;someone who is going to Denmark i can barter with them to accept my Beer at<BR>&gt;face value. and there by get them to buy me a beer here. then they can take<BR>&gt;the Beer Buck(tm) to denmark and cash in. WOOT!<BR><BR>Well, if I had authorized Peter to make it transferrable and you got his from<BR>him, then, yes, you could do as you say. In fact, I forgot that little detail,<BR>but let me remedy that. I will authorize Peter to transfer his Beer Buck (just<BR>do it in handwriting, Peter).<BR><BR>&gt;Anyone going to denmark any time soon?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I place total faith ion the face value of my Beer Buck(tm) 8P<BR><BR>Good for you. But Peter is only going to be able to cash in his Beer Buck if he<BR>can find someone who is not only going to Denmark, but is also confident that<BR>I'm going to keep my word (and, incidentally, knows where I live ;-).<BR><BR><BR>And Kelly St.Clair asks:<BR>&gt;Alternatively, Mr. Newman can trade that IOU to someone else (for whatever <BR>&gt;item, service, or other thing of value they agree upon) who thinks he might <BR>&gt;be able to trade it to someone else etc, etc, until it winds up in the <BR>&gt;hands of someone living in or visiting your town.&nbsp; And as the IOU is for <BR>&gt;"bearer", they can turn up on your doorstep and ask for that beer.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;This is how currency works. :)&nbsp; And that about exhausts MY knowledge of the <BR>&gt;black art known as "economics".<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;(Incidentally, Hans, aren't you worried that Peter might start printing out <BR>&gt;hundreds, even thousands of copies of that IOU - minting his own <BR>&gt;Hans-braus, basically?&nbsp; If enough holders try to negotiate their currency <BR>&gt;at once, you could soon find yourself out of specie.)<BR><BR>Actually, no. First of all, the IOU is not to bearer. I specifically promised<BR>_Peter_ a beer. Still, as I said above, I'll allow him to transfer it to another<BR>just to make it a little more like money. But I didn't authorize him to start<BR>minting Beer Bucks. Secondly, I always have the option of defaulting, don't I?<BR>As I said above, that Beer Buck isn't going to do Peter any good unless he can<BR>find someone who trusts that I will redeem it. It's not a beer, it's merely a<BR>promise of one. Just as treasury notes are not wealth, they are merely promises.<BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:14:44 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial and local currency<BR><BR>&gt;What are the economic consequences to the Imperium of member states using <BR>&gt;their own currencies internally?&nbsp; Would that harm the economy of the <BR>&gt;Imperium in any way?<BR><BR>If anything, it would help. If a currency is used over a region so large <BR>that the economy isn't even, then it's very difficult to control economic <BR>growth. For example, Region A is going like gangbusters and you want to cool <BR>it off to prevent inflation, but Region B is on the verge of recession and <BR>you want to pump things up. With different currencies in each region, you <BR>can fiddle with the money supply of each. With a single currency across <BR>both, you lose this lever.<BR><BR>An empire more than a two years across is almost certainly too big for a <BR>single currency to be the best solution.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:19:27 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:46:11 -0400 (EDT)<BR>&gt; From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Dogs certainly have a more sensitive sense of smell, and can hear<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; higher frequency sounds than humans, but don't sell us short.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Humans have excellent vision, probably better than that of dogs<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (though this is difficult to determine).<BR><BR>I think it's probably 6 of one half a dozen of the other. As I recall dogs<BR>see<BR>into the infra-red spectrum and have a generally better visual accuity<BR>resulting in better night vision. (not sure of that last one) Our daytime<BR>vision<BR>is probably superior (we can see colors at any rate) again our talents<BR>(as species) appear quite complementary.<BR><BR>The cat/human symbiosis is a little more tenuous but we get along quite<BR>well with them also. While cats aren't as amenable to training as dogs they<BR>do quite well hunting the smaller vermin and the purr thing is a wonderfull<BR>stress reducer.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:58:47 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:53:43 +1100<BR>&gt; From: Paul Harris &lt;paul.harris@dytech.com.au&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This would imply that the Vargr *are* a race superior to humaniti.<BR>&gt; Better keep this wild theory under wraps....<BR><BR>"Grrrrrrf! Who says we aren't?" - Rosco (real name unkown) lead<BR>howler of near-c-rocks.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:02:41 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:35:55 -0600<BR>&gt; From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; I'm Mawg.<BR>&gt; Half-man, half-dog.<BR>&gt; I'm my own best friend.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; John Candy as Mawg<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Space Balls<BR><BR>That's the trouble with most of the really good one liners.<BR>Somebody has probably already used it.<BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:24:25 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&gt;From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;DaveShayne writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener<BR>&gt;&gt;senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the higher<BR>&gt;&gt;intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be their own <BR>&gt;&gt;best friends.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Dogs certainly have a more sensitive sense of smell, and can hear<BR>&gt;&nbsp; higher frequency sounds than humans, but don't sell us short.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Humans have excellent vision, probably better than that of dogs<BR>&gt;&nbsp; (though this is difficult to determine).<BR><BR>I'm not even convinced that humans have the greater intellect, although we<BR>appear to be much better at symbolic analysis.&nbsp; This leads us to the trap<BR>of measuring intellect by measuring the ability to perform symbolic<BR>analysis.&nbsp; Dogs are admittedly not very good at symbolic analysis; you can<BR>barely teach them to do arithmetic, let alone read, write, or do<BR>mathematics.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Nevertheless, they know a lot about you, about how the world works, how to<BR>get what they need, and how to feel good and balanced just about all the<BR>time.&nbsp; If you spend some time doing pack activities with a dog (or better<BR>a couple of dogs), and stay open to the dog experience, you will learn a<BR>lot.&nbsp; <BR><BR>The best activities, in my opinion, are patrolling the territory (not just<BR>walking and waiting for the dog to poop, but perceiving what has changed<BR>and what has not since you were here last, even if you cannot experience<BR>the subtlety of odors that the dog can), hunting and exploring (not just<BR>walking while the dog runs around, but staying quiet, breathing well,<BR>keeping all of your senses open to danger and opportunity), and<BR>stalking/observing (the internal energy -- or ki -- of us monkeyboys and<BR>- -girls is in constant, rapid, even erratic, motion, making it hard for us<BR>to sit still; dogs can lie in wait, nearly motionless, just observing, for<BR>longer than even a ninja can take; try lying down beside the observing dog<BR>and letting all of your senses open up while you clear all of the dialogue<BR>- -- all of which consists entirely of symbols -- out of your mind).<BR><BR>The Vargr may well have the best of both capabilities:&nbsp; ki that flows in<BR>slow waves, allowing great concentration, and highly developed talent at<BR>symbolic analysis.&nbsp; The Ancients probably developed the Vargr not to be<BR>guards and assistants, but to be thinkers, who could focus for long<BR>periods on a problem and who could bring all of their capabilities to<BR>bear.&nbsp; It is no surprise that the Vargr invented the jump drive on their<BR>own.&nbsp; They just had to think about how to get to the stars.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:31:29 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.<BR><BR>- --- DaveShayne &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:46:11 -0400 (EDT)<BR>&gt; &gt; From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Dogs certainly have a more sensitive sense of smell, and<BR>&gt; can hear<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; higher frequency sounds than humans, but don't sell us<BR>&gt; short.<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Humans have excellent vision, probably better than that of<BR>&gt; dogs<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (though this is difficult to determine).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I think it's probably 6 of one half a dozen of the other. As I recall<BR>&gt; dogs<BR>&gt; see<BR>&gt; into the infra-red spectrum and have a generally better visual<BR>&gt; accuity<BR>&gt; resulting in better night vision. (not sure of that last one) Our<BR>&gt; daytime<BR>&gt; vision<BR>&gt; is probably superior (we can see colors at any rate) again our<BR>&gt; talents<BR>&gt; (as species) appear quite complementary.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The cat/human symbiosis is a little more tenuous but we get along<BR>&gt; quite<BR>&gt; well with them also. While cats aren't as amenable to training as<BR>&gt; dogs they<BR>&gt; do quite well hunting the smaller vermin and the purr thing is a<BR>&gt; wonderfull<BR>&gt; stress reducer.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; David Shayne<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:36:48 -0800<BR>From: "Thing" &lt;thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>On Thursday, March 08, 2001 11:31 AM<BR>Gerry Harris,<BR><BR>&gt; Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.<BR><BR>As are something like 20%-30% of Caucasian males, or maybe it's blue-green<BR>colour blind.&nbsp; I'll have to go check my visual design reference books.<BR><BR>G.D.D.<BR>ThingUnderTheStairs<BR>Minion of SheChemist and GothBunny<BR>Grand Master of the Electron Flow<BR>===========================<BR>"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite<BR>you.&nbsp; That is the principal difference between a dog and a man." -Mark Twain<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:43:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Latin in the Far Future (well, maybe in 2300)<BR><BR>I have just received an email newsletter from Morrison &amp; Foerster, a local<BR>law firm, that begins as follows:<BR><BR>&gt;The European Union is on the verge of adopting a Regulation[1] that would<BR>&gt;for the first time establish a true pan-European company form, &gt;the<BR>Societas Europeae (or SE for short), a European public limited<BR>&gt;liability company.&nbsp; <BR><BR>What is interesting to me (and, I hope, to you) is that the European Union<BR>has chosen to use Latin for the name of this new concept.&nbsp; There is<BR>presently a great deal of interest in classical Latin in Europe.&nbsp; Now that<BR>a few thousand years have passed, the language of a brutal occupying power<BR>is perceived as a way to unify and empower, rather than oppress.&nbsp; (Church<BR>Latin is quite different from classical Latin, but may also be a factor in<BR>Europe's fascination with the language.&nbsp;&nbsp; It is only some 40 years since<BR>the Catholic Church stopped using Latin in its services.&nbsp; Interestingly,<BR>the Catholic Church first flourished in areas occupied by Romans.)<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 10:44:22 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: FFS2 design characteristics<BR><BR>"Patrik Holmstrm" &lt;glappkaeft@hotmail.com&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; The most expensive vessel I have seen to date however is the Dimashq 900kdt <BR>&gt; "Recurrent Glory" (1498 GCr) <BR>&gt; Sidenote: It's impossible to play a game of TCS with any of the above <BR>&gt; designs. :)<BR><BR>Well don't just stand there, go design some rules for Quadrillion<BR>Credit Squadron. :)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:55:06 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>I found an interesting web page describing the evolution of canines and <BR>their chromosome differences. I think that this difference in the <BR>chromosomes between dogs, wolves, foxes, etc. is the comment I was trying to <BR>remember from the Discovery(?) show on the spread of canines across the <BR>globe.<BR><BR>http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne2.htm<BR><BR>John<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:59:52 -0600<BR>From: Loren Wiseman &lt;lkw@io.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Cutter Books<BR><BR>I am reliably informed that these were drop-shipped to the distribution<BR>chain, and should be arriving at your US FLGS any time between this weekend<BR>and next weekend. We get ours (for W23) Monday.<BR><BR>Go look at the cool Jesse art on the cover and inside.<BR><BR>&lt;fnord&gt;<BR>Jesse: Are you sure the hypno-coding was properly imbedded in the dot<BR>screens this time? Last time, the "Buy Me NOW!" subliminal embed was so<BR>subtle as to be only 23% effective, and we don't want that happening again.<BR>&lt;/fnord&gt;<BR><BR>I've been trying to get this book published for 10 years, and finally did it.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Loren Wiseman<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society&nbsp; http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SJ Games<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:28:49 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>Peter Newman writes:<BR>&gt;Let me try to make myself clear. Traveller is a role playing game. The<BR>&gt;question I am asking is "Suppose that the players go into the only bar on a<BR>&gt;low population planet within the Imperium and order a drink. The bartender<BR>&gt;requires payment in advance. For some strange and illogical reason of his<BR>&gt;own he will not take Imperial credits as payment, despite the fact that he<BR>&gt;could spend them easily. Can the characters get Imperial law enforcement<BR>&gt;agents to make the bartender take their credits or are they S.O.L.?"<BR><BR>Put in that form I would say emphatically no. They may be able to get the local<BR>law to do something about it, but that would entirely depend on local laws about<BR>legal tender and offers and deals.<BR><BR>&gt;The question I am asking is not if Imperial credits are generally accepted,<BR>&gt;the question I am asking is "Must Imperial credits, as a matter of law, be<BR>&gt;accepted?" I am simply stating that my reading of canon about the fall of<BR>&gt;the Second Imperium and T4 canon about the formation of the Third Imperium<BR>&gt;make me believe that the Third Imperium seems like the sort of place that<BR>&gt;would require its people to take Imperial credits. Your mileage may vary.<BR><BR>Let's leave it at that, then.<BR><BR>&gt;...the fact that the one of the most expensive things the Imperium ever buys<BR>&gt;(capital ships) can move themselves for way less (per parsec/ton) than other<BR>&gt;goods means that it does not (on average) cost the Imperium as much to move<BR>&gt;stuff as it would if they shipped it all as freight. This may make a big<BR>&gt;monetary difference.<BR><BR>So it does, but I still don't see the relevance to this discussion. <BR><BR>&gt;...What I'm saying is say that the government of Regina has a sack full of<BR>&gt;money. <BR><BR>What kind of money and where did they get it in the first place?<BR><BR>&gt;They could either use this money to go buy stuff they want _or_ they could<BR>&gt;use that money to pay their taxes.<BR><BR>There are two different situations that you have to distinguish between:<BR><BR>1) If it's Crimps that they've recieved for selling goods to offworld merchants,<BR>then you're right. They can either buy other stuff or pay their taxes. But in<BR>that case they have _already_ paid for those tokens (the Crimps) in real wealth<BR>(the goods they delivered in exchange for the Crimps). And if they use them to<BR>pay their taxes and the subsector duke wants to get some ships from that planet,<BR>he has to give those Crimp notes back in order to get the ships. In which case<BR>the planet delivered another set of goods (the ships) and got their promisory<BR>notes back, which means the planet can spend them on buying offworld goods to<BR>the value of the ships after all.<BR><BR>2) Now, if they haven't sold any goods, they don't have any Crimps to pay their<BR>taxes with (and they wouldn't have had them to buy offworld goods with either).<BR>In that case they have to promise the subsector duke to pay their taxes in the<BR>form of a promisory note: "IOU Umpteen billion Crimps." Now, when the duke comes<BR>to get his ships, the planet deliver a bunch of real wealth (the ships) and<BR>either recieve a bunch of Crimps which they immidiately use to pay off the IOU<BR>or the duke tears up the IOU. The effect is exactly the same.<BR><BR>&gt;When they chose to pay their taxes they incur the opportunity cost of not<BR>&gt;being able to spend that money on other stuff.<BR><BR>Yep, but they achieve the gain of having paid their taxes and not owing the duke<BR>anything. If the duke wants ships, he'll have to pay for them now. Once again:<BR>the actual notes (or electronic notations) are merely ways to keep score.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;I'm claiming that unless the subsector duke actually shows up and<BR>&gt;&gt;demands goods for those credits then the planet isn't poorer by one jot. That<BR>&gt;&gt;the goods can move by themselves is completely irrelevant to that argument.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The planet is poorer because if they had not given the credits to<BR>&gt;the Imperium they could have blown it all on something else.<BR><BR>That's a function of taxes, not of money.<BR><BR>&gt;While I don't want to turn this into ECON 101 I will simply note<BR>&gt;that most modern economists believe that money has several uses.<BR>&gt;I was asserting that the use of money in this case was an a <BR>&gt;medium of exchange.<BR><BR>As a means of keeping score, you mean?<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;You do realise that you have no evidence to support your CLAIM that the <BR>&gt;&gt;Imperium is willing to kill people who won't accept Imperial credits.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;If you mean a direct quote saying so than no I don't. However canon (The<BR>&gt;Warrant of Restoration) establishes that trade is very important to the<BR>&gt;Imperium and that the Imperium reserves the right to do what it wants.<BR>&gt;Therefore I am asserting that canon supports my claim that they have the<BR>&gt;power and the right to kill people who do not accept Imperial credits.<BR><BR>They sure have the power and they may claim the right. But they definitely don't<BR>have the need, because the existing situation does not encourage people to<BR>refuse Imperial credits. Because trade DO take place and Crimps ARE accepted. So<BR>as I said, the whole question is moot.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;To imply that the MT books support your contentions and that <BR>&gt;&gt;the only reason I'm arguing against them must be that I haven't <BR>&gt;&gt;read them properly is extremely rude of you. I consider my gentle <BR>&gt;&gt;reproach quite restrained. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;On the contrary by asserting that my argument was not worthy of<BR>&gt;response you were denigrating my comments, moreover by declining<BR>&gt;to respond (as is your right, your time is your own) but never less<BR>&gt;asserting that, were you willing to be uncivil, you could rebut<BR>&gt;them you eliminated the possibility that I could rebut your rebuttal.<BR><BR>Well, I apologize for being obtuse. What I meant to imply was that the response<BR>your comment really deserved would have been inflammatory and that I preferred<BR>not to excalate this into a flame fest.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Perhaps you should look<BR>&gt;&gt;up 'civil' in the dictionary. I don't think it means what you think it means.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;civil -<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;8. In that social condition which accompanies and is involved <BR>&gt;in citizenship or life in communities; not barbarous; civilized;<BR>&gt;advanced in the arts of life<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;9. Educated; well bred; refined; polished, 'polite'<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;the OED.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;By claiming that an argument you were not going to deign to make<BR>&gt;would rebut my argument you suggested that my argument, and by <BR>&gt;extension me, was not worthy of your response. <BR><BR>as I explained above, I didn't mean to imply that. I meant that the response<BR>that corresponded in rudeness to yours would have been inflammatory.<BR><BR>&gt;I found this behavior to be the antithesis of 'polite'. <BR><BR>So much for using dictionaries to solve these problems. According to<BR>Merriam-Webster you can be civil without being polite.<BR><BR>"2 a : CIVILIZED &lt;civil society&gt; b : adequate in courtesy and politeness :<BR>MANNERLY<BR><BR>synonyms CIVIL, POLITE, COURTEOUS,<BR>CHIVALROUS mean observant of the forms required by good<BR>breeding. CIVIL often suggests little more than the avoidance of<BR>overt rudeness &lt;owed the questioner a civil reply&gt;. POLITE<BR>commonly implies polish of speech and manners and sometimes<BR>suggests an absence of cordiality &lt;if you can't be pleasant, at<BR>least be polite&gt;. COURTEOUS implies more actively considerate<BR>or dignified politeness &lt;clerks who were unfailingly courteous to<BR>customers&gt;."<BR><BR>Merriam-Webster online dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/).<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;While I'm sorry to hear that I come across as patronizing and willing to try to<BR>&gt;&gt;remedy that, I don't think being patronizing is incompatible with being civil.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I disagree. This is not some University of Traveller in which you<BR>&gt;have a Doctoral Degree in Traveller canon and can therefore claim<BR>&gt;a position of authority from which to look down on others.<BR><BR>Nor am I consious of ever having done so. Nor is the current discussion about<BR>anything related to the Traveller canon except indirectly. It's a discussion<BR>about the nature of money and wealth and whether or not there is a difference.<BR><BR>&gt;Nor is this some Feudal Nobility in which Sir Ranke-Madsen rightfully<BR>&gt;claims superiority. Patronizing implies a patronage relationship,<BR><BR>That's one of the two meanings of the word. The one not usually meant nowadays.<BR>The other one is:<BR><BR>"2 : to adopt an air of condescension toward : treat haughtily or coolly."<BR><BR>And 'condescending' means: <BR><BR>"1 : voluntary descent from one's rank or dignity in relations with an inferior"<BR><BR>Now, since I don't consider you an inferior, I am unable to condescend to you.<BR><BR>(Hmmm. As far as I can see, being patronizing and being polite are not mutuall<BR>&gt;Let me try to connect it. The Rebellion happened because Dulinor<BR>&gt;would not accept Strephon's authority (yes that's a bit simplified).<BR>&gt;Therefore the rebellion was about the extent of imperial power.<BR>&gt;I am asserting that canon (the Warrant of Restoration) gives the<BR>&gt;Imperium the authority (supremacy clause) to do what they feel is <BR>&gt;necessary.<BR><BR>What it doesn't say anywhere is that the Imperium would feel the need to enforce<BR>the acceptance of Imperial credits at gunpoint. As I've repeatedly stated,<BR>Crimps ARE accepted as legal tender. I just don't believe it is for the reason<BR>you propose.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;You've just recieved an electronic transfer of funds, an electronic IOU:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;[...]<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Now, you can print that out and frame it, but unless you actually come over to<BR>&gt;&gt;Denmark and collect, you're not one bit better off than before. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I don't have to come to Denmark, all I have to do is sell it on EBay to<BR>&gt;someone who is already in Denmark or is already planning to go to Denmark.<BR><BR>If I made the promise transferrable (as I've done in another post) and if you<BR>can find someone who will trust me to keep my promise (and I'm not going to bet<BR>you can't find some idiot on eBay who will do so. Go ahead and try it. I would<BR>be interested to see how much you can get for it).<BR><BR>But you're missing the point. You have that option only because there IS trade<BR>and travel between the US and Denmark. Get a similar promise from someone in a<BR>remote African jungle village and see if you can get the same payment for that.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;And I'm not a bit worse off. I've got a beer in my larder (left behind by a<BR>&gt;&gt;visitor), and unless you show up one day to collect it, I'm going to keep on<BR>&gt;&gt;having that beer in my larder. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The cost of keeping that beer in your larder is that you can't sell or give it<BR>&gt;to someone else. <BR><BR>Why not? If I believed you might one day show up here and cash in your Beer<BR>Buck, I might or might not feel a bit restrained in my treatment of that beer<BR>(don't worry, if I should spend it and you do show up, I'll just go buy another<BR>one). But until you do show up, I still control the disposition of that beer. If<BR>someone shows up and demands my beer or my life, I can give him the beer. If I<BR>had mailed it to you, I couldn't do so.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;In the same way, a planet can send a message to the subsector <BR>&gt;&gt;duke that they owe him 10 billion credits, but unless he shows <BR>&gt;&gt;up to collect ships or supplies to the tune of 10 billion credits, <BR>&gt;&gt;the planet is not one decicred poorer.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;1) If they merely say that they owe him the ten billion credits than<BR>&gt;no they are not one decicred poorer. If _however_ they actually<BR>&gt;set the ten billion credits aside than they can't use them to<BR>&gt;buy anything else with. That's all I'm saying.<BR><BR>What ten billion credits? This is situation 2) as described above. They didn't<BR>sell anything, so they send the Duke an IOU. If he ever shows up to cash it in,<BR>they will be poorer by the ships he buys. But until he show up, THEY control the<BR>ships. And if he never shows up, they don't lose anything.<BR><BR>Now, if we're talking about situation 1), then they are already poorer by goods<BR>to the tune of ten billion credits. But they lost that wealth the moment they<BR>turned ower their goods to the merchant and recieved those Crimp notes instead.<BR>If the duke shows up, they can give him those notes and they don't lose<BR>anything more. If he doesn't show up, they can use them as Monopoly money and<BR>they still won't get any poorer for that.<BR><BR>Now, it's true that if they don't plan to use the money to pay taxes, they can<BR>buy off-world goods instead. But they have already paid for those goods by<BR>delivering goods to the merchants in the first place. Exchanging Crimp notes<BR>for new goods merely bring things back in balance. The end result in the latter<BR>case would have been exactly the same if they had swapped the original goods<BR>for the off-world goods in the first place. The money merely serves to keep<BR>score. They could just as well pay their taxes by delivering goods to the<BR>merchants and make the merchants deliver some ships from _their_ home planet to<BR>the duke.<BR><BR>&gt;2) He can sell their IOU to someone else who can then stop buy and get the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; stuff.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>To the planet this is exactly the same situation as if the duke himself shows<BR>up. No, wait, it's not. If the planet is damn sure the duke will never show up<BR>and the New Guy is a weakling, the planet now has the option to renege on their<BR>IOU and refuse to pay it. Because the IOU is not wealth, it is merely the<BR>promise of wealth.&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&gt;Similarly I could sell your IOU one beer on EBay. <BR><BR>Yes you could. But he is not going to get his thirst quenched until I actually<BR>deliver on my promise. He can't drink the IOU.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3783<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xb01.mx.aol.com (rly-xb01.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.102]) by air-xb04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:32:21 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xb01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:31:57 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA65526;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:30:30 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:28:54 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA65439<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:28:54 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:28:54 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103082028.PAA65439@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3783<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3784</B></TD></TR>
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<TD>3/8/01 7:11:02 PM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, March 8 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3784<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Cutter Books<BR>RE: dog vs human senses<BR>3d Walkthroughs<BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Fw: [URL] Superconductors!<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: Astrogation design<BR>Re: Astrogation design<BR>Re: Astrogation design<BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Hyphen's Combat Rules and KB3<BR>Re: Hyphen's Combat Rules and KB3<BR>What Kind of Vargr are you?<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:32:31 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cutter Books<BR><BR>On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Loren Wiseman wrote:<BR>&gt; I am reliably informed that these were drop-shipped to the distribution<BR>&gt; chain, and should be arriving at your US FLGS any time between this weekend<BR>&gt; and next weekend. We get ours (for W23) Monday.<BR><BR>Grrr... I knew this would happen.&nbsp; I just placed a W23 order this<BR>Monday.&nbsp; But at the rate things are going, if I sit and wait for "just<BR>one more book" to come out, I'd never buy anything.&nbsp; It seems something<BR>cool is always at the printer.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Greg Kettler<BR><BR>"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you<BR>may not actually need an explicit loop exit.&nbsp; The loop will be terminated<BR>automatically at the appropriate moment."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:48:39 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: dog vs human senses<BR><BR>DaveShayne writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;Dogs certainly have a more sensitive sense of smell, and can hear<BR>&gt;&gt;higher frequency sounds than humans, but don't sell us short.<BR>&gt;&gt;Humans have excellent vision, probably better than that of dogs<BR>&gt;&gt;(though this is difficult to determine).<BR>&gt;I think it's probably 6 of one half a dozen of the other. As I recall<BR>&gt;dogs see into the infra-red spectrum<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I have not read this anywhere, though it may be true.<BR><BR>&gt;and have a generally better visual accuity resulting in better night<BR>&gt;vision. (not sure of that last one)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Better accuity does not necessarily lead to better night vision.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Dogs appear to have better night vision, but it is tricky to work<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; out the accuity comparison.<BR><BR>&gt;Our daytime vision is probably superior (we can see colors at any<BR>&gt;rate) again our talents (as species) appear quite complementary.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; They certainly are, but I would argue not just because humans<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; are smart.<BR><BR>&gt;The cat/human symbiosis is a little more tenuous but we get along quite<BR>&gt;well with them also. While cats aren't as amenable to training as dogs they<BR>&gt;do quite well hunting the smaller vermin and the purr thing is a wonderfull<BR>&gt;stress reducer.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Let's not forget the cows, pigs, chickens, wheat, corn, apple trees,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; yeast, mushrooms, Penicilium, etc.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:33:56 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: 3d Walkthroughs<BR><BR>Over in the T5 forum somebody is asking about 3D walkthroughs. I seem to<BR>recal somebody talking about some of these a while ago. Maybe still on the<BR>net somewhere.<BR><BR>The discusion thread is in the Fleet section of the Citizens of the Imperium<BR>at Marc's site.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:51:45 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>Thing writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.<BR>&gt;As are something like 20%-30% of Caucasian males, or maybe it's blue-green<BR>&gt;colour blind.&nbsp; I'll have to go check my visual design reference books.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Red-green colour blindness is the most common, occuring in<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; something like 5-8% of males (in North America, at least),<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and 0.25-0.6% of females.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:11:46 -0800<BR>From: "Thing" &lt;thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Fw: [URL] Superconductors!<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Thing" &lt;thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 12:34 PM<BR>Subject: [URL] Superconductors!<BR><BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010308/sc/plastic_superconductor_1.html<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:14:49 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>At 12:06 AM -0800 3/8/01, John Lambert wrote:<BR>&gt;The Discovery program addressed the variation in canines excluding <BR>&gt;the forced breeding of dogs. The original canines evolved into the <BR>&gt;wide variety of wolves, foxes, and wild dogs. These different <BR>&gt;varieties vary greatly in size and physical build to match extreme <BR>&gt;hot, cold, and dry environments.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The type of variation I would expect in the Vargr would be to such <BR>&gt;things as high or low gravity, dim or bright light, etc. which are <BR>&gt;not easy to escape using normal technology. The canines appear to be <BR>&gt;able to change physical structure to adapt more than early man.<BR><BR>That would be OK for Vargr that evolved on different worlds or were <BR>isolated for a long time (and didn't just use technology to counter <BR>the environmental differences).&nbsp; But the Vargr evolved on one world <BR>and didn't leave until they had the technology to counter most of the <BR>changed in the environment.&nbsp; Add to this that most Vargr worlds are <BR>in contact with the rest of the extents and will be intermarrying.<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:16:20 -0800<BR>From: "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>At 4:28 PM -0800 3/7/01, Gerry Harris wrote:<BR>&gt;--- Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;&lt;...i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf.&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;This brings up the question:&nbsp; Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to be a<BR>&gt;comic genius or a racist stereotype?<BR><BR>Vargr wouldn't related to them at all, any more than you would relate <BR>to a cartoon chimp...<BR><BR>______________________________<BR>summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>(This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:29:54 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>Am Tuesday, March 06, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Budweisser bought in Europe is actually brewed in Europe (printed<BR>&gt;&gt;very small on the ads).&nbsp; And that's on the same planet.<BR><BR>&gt; And Budweiser in Canada is brewed in Canada, and makes a big deal of it.<BR>But European -Budweiser has nothing to do with American Budweiser.<BR>Completely different company from the Czech town of Budweis. They won<BR>a legal battle to the rights of the name.<BR>What you call budweiser, if at all found in Europe (only very seldom)<BR>is sold as "B".<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:49:15 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>I relate to Magilla Gorilla, does that count?<BR><BR>- --- "David P. Summers" &lt;summers@alum.mit.edu&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; At 4:28 PM -0800 3/7/01, Gerry Harris wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;--- Tod Glenn &lt;webmaster@travellercentral.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&lt;&lt;...i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf.&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;This brings up the question:&nbsp; Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to be<BR>&gt; a<BR>&gt; &gt;comic genius or a racist stereotype?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Vargr wouldn't related to them at all, any more than you would relate<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; to a cartoon chimp...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; ______________________________<BR>&gt; summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>&gt; (This is the net.&nbsp; My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in<BR>California.)<BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:04:53 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&gt;From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;The cat/human symbiosis is a little more tenuous but we get along quite<BR>&gt;well with them also. While cats aren't as amenable to training as dogs <BR>&gt;they do quite well hunting the smaller vermin and the purr thing is a <BR>&gt;wonderfull stress reducer.<BR><BR>A cat would laugh at this comment, but wouldn't be sure whether it was<BR>naivete or arrogance.&nbsp; Any cat will tell you that it is cats who have<BR>found humans to be quite amenable to training.&nbsp; The cats even got us to<BR>worship them as gods in one of our major civilizations a while ago.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:11:51 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>on 7/3/01 10:07 am, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; what's a "pointer"?<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Simply C jargon for a call by reference rather than by value.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Good grief, is that all.&nbsp; Why do some people like C&nbsp; so&nbsp; much&nbsp; if<BR>&gt; you have to bother yourself with such trivial matters?<BR><BR>As pointed out, the 'call' part was inaccurate. A pointer is a reference to<BR>the address of a data structure of some sort rather than the structure<BR>itself. It's often used to pass a reference in a call rather than the value.<BR>It also allows you to do all sorts of low-level clever addressing tricks. Of<BR>course, some of the things you can do using pointer arithmetic are just<BR>plain dangerous, particularly if you make assumptions about the hardware<BR>remaining constant.<BR><BR>The reasons that C is popular - it's a highly portable (simple to implement<BR>on any hardware) language that creates a sort of 'high level assembler' that<BR>is largely architecture neutral and syntactically simple. It's also popular<BR>simply because the original C compilers were distributed free with the Bell<BR>Labs Unix distributions. As a result it's the de-facto way to program on a<BR>Unix-related system.<BR><BR>However, many people don't like C precisely because it requires so much<BR>attention to machine-related issues. Sometimes it's better to have a system<BR>that's less trivial to port but which deals with these issues itself. It's<BR>here that C is a boon - these environments become more portable themselves<BR>if coded in C.<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:10:19 GMT<BR>From: "John G. Wood" &lt;elvwood@ntlworld.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>knightsky@juno.com wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; This brings up the question:&nbsp; Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to be <BR>&gt; &gt; a comic genius or a racist stereotype?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Tragic hero.<BR><BR>You've been reading Grant Morrison's Animal Man, haven't you?<BR><BR>John<BR>http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:16:22 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:24:25 -0800 (PST)<BR>&gt; From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; I'm not even convinced that humans have the greater intellect, although we<BR>&gt; appear to be much better at symbolic analysis.&nbsp; This leads us to the trap<BR>&gt; of measuring intellect by measuring the ability to perform symbolic<BR>&gt; analysis.&nbsp; Dogs are admittedly not very good at symbolic analysis; you can<BR>&gt; barely teach them to do arithmetic, let alone read, write, or do<BR>&gt; mathematics.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Nevertheless, they know a lot about you, about how the world works, how to<BR>&gt; get what they need, and how to feel good and balanced just about all the<BR>&gt; time.&nbsp; If you spend some time doing pack activities with a dog (or better<BR>&gt; a couple of dogs), and stay open to the dog experience, you will learn a<BR>&gt; lot.<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>I won't argue the point a whole bunch. I am saying that the capabilities of<BR>humans and dogs are complementary and so lead to a good symbiotic<BR>relationship.<BR><BR>&gt; The Vargr may well have the best of both capabilities:&nbsp; ki that flows in<BR>&gt; slow waves, allowing great concentration, and highly developed talent at<BR>&gt; symbolic analysis.&nbsp; The Ancients probably developed the Vargr not to be<BR>&gt; guards and assistants, but to be thinkers, who could focus for long<BR>&gt; periods on a problem and who could bring all of their capabilities to<BR>&gt; bear.&nbsp; It is no surprise that the Vargr invented the jump drive on their<BR>&gt; own.&nbsp; They just had to think about how to get to the stars.<BR><BR>I kinda made the same point (less eloquently I'll admit) upthread.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:20:02 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:31:29 -0800 (PST)<BR>&gt; From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.<BR><BR>Oops. I hereby ammend my statement to,<BR>"humans see *more* colors than dogs."<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:27:02 +0000<BR>From: Paul Campbell &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Astrogation design<BR><BR>On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 11:26:42AM -0000, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Why are you using char(2) for you id fields instead of an integer<BR>&gt; &gt; field of some sort?&nbsp; Especially one tied to a Sequence.&nbsp; ('Autonumber'<BR>&gt; &gt; in Access lingo)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Three reasons:<BR>&gt; [Snip]<BR><BR>Okay, I understand why now.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subsector Position Table<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Any particular reason why this isn't part of the Subsector Table?&nbsp; I'm<BR>&gt; &gt; not saying you don't have a reason, I just don't see it.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; As a "good little programmer" I try to put as much of my data&nbsp; in<BR>&gt; "third&nbsp; normal&nbsp; form"&nbsp; as&nbsp;&nbsp; possible&nbsp;&nbsp; (then&nbsp;&nbsp; denormalise&nbsp;&nbsp; when<BR>&gt; performance is an issue).&nbsp; The subsector codes (from A to P) have<BR>&gt; fixed positions (as established by canon).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; For example:&nbsp; Subsector C of the Spinward Marches is&nbsp; the&nbsp; Regina<BR>&gt; subsector.&nbsp; Subsector C of the Trojan&nbsp; Reach&nbsp; is&nbsp; the&nbsp; Pax&nbsp; Rulin<BR>&gt; subsector.&nbsp; Each&nbsp; would&nbsp; have&nbsp; its&nbsp; own&nbsp; separate&nbsp; entry&nbsp; in&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; Subsector Table, yet both have&nbsp; their&nbsp; relative&nbsp; position&nbsp; (third<BR>&gt; along on the top row) the same.&nbsp; Thus,&nbsp; data&nbsp; normalisation&nbsp; says<BR>&gt; this is a separate data entity ... you&nbsp; should&nbsp; only&nbsp; store&nbsp; this<BR>&gt; once (in the Subsector Position Table) for *all* subsector Cs.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Border Table<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I'd suggest putting the Alignment in the System Table unless you<BR>&gt; &gt; specifically want to allocate Alignements to empty hexes.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Exactly.&nbsp; The best way I could come up with to implement&nbsp; borders<BR>&gt; that matched published canon was to allocate allignments to empty<BR>&gt; hexs (which I know sounds kind of dumb when you&nbsp; first&nbsp; think&nbsp; of<BR>&gt; it).&nbsp; Check out the screenshot on StuffOnline for an&nbsp; example&nbsp; of<BR>&gt; the Jewell subsector as displayed in my half finished program ...<BR>&gt; complete with borders.<BR><BR>I'd looked at this [your site] earlier.&nbsp; I like the maps.&nbsp; Should be<BR>even more impressive once you've added the other sectors.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24<BR>http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net<BR>jupiter: 8:21pm up 58 days, 10:01, 4 users, load average: 0.85, 0.52, 0.22<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:40:03 +0000<BR>From: Paul Campbell &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Astrogation design<BR><BR>On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:45:23PM -0000, Mark Preston wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; &gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Paul Campbell<BR>&gt; &gt; Sent: 06 March 2001 18:57<BR>&gt; &gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: Astrogation design<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; [snip]<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; This is good at the level where differences occur at the local<BR>&gt; &gt; level, and especially when the changes are in 'free text' fields<BR>&gt; &gt; as per your example.&nbsp; Problems arise when you start to develop<BR>&gt; &gt; Untilites that need to traverse this universe autonomously.&nbsp; Given<BR>&gt; &gt; two differing profiles for a star system which one do you use?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; Unfortunately, when you are designing a sort of "free-for-all"<BR>&gt; transport data structure that can be plugged in to dozens of<BR>&gt; different applications, that is exactly the problem you will<BR>&gt; hit. What I have done so far assumes (and even this much may be<BR>&gt; wrong, which is why I posted it) that the _physical_ details - in<BR>&gt; this case just the location of the sector - will be the same for all<BR>&gt; the game settings and software and that just the descriptions (if<BR>&gt; they are used by particular applications) might vary. I managed that<BR>&gt; by setting the canon/T4/CT flags up for the text and allowed the<BR>&gt; "local" option for those that didn't fit.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; You are dead right though - "local" is not enough as it stands. An<BR>&gt; extra, optional, tag is needed to say what the local rules apply to.<BR>&gt; I'll add that as well and it should mean that any application can<BR>&gt; select just the data it needs to run for the particular game setting<BR>&gt; being dealt with.<BR><BR>A way round it could be to and a 'setting' or 'milieu' flag against<BR>each object.&nbsp; Then apply a filter in your programs to only access a<BR>given set.&nbsp; Some items may be valid for more than one setting, and I'd<BR>be reluctant to use a field for each setting.&nbsp; Even though in my own<BR>database design this would be handled in Objects table, it would make<BR>any programs awkward.&nbsp; A field type of SET, as documented in MySQL<BR>could be used.&nbsp; This would require the different settings to be know<BR>at the time the datebase was created.&nbsp; I'll need to think on this a<BR>bit more to get a better answer.<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Personally I'm not convinced either is better of worse from a<BR>&gt; &gt; modelling point of view.&nbsp; However programatically I would prefer<BR>&gt; &gt; the parallel universes as they are easier to seperate at an early<BR>&gt; &gt; stage.&nbsp; And allow multiple unrelated milieus to reside safely<BR>&gt; &gt; within the same database.&nbsp; The benefits of this are demonstrated<BR>&gt; &gt; by Galactic.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; Oh my word yes - it would probably be possible to actually design an<BR>&gt; application to traverse and calculate based on the data in the XML,<BR>&gt; but I wouldn't like to do it personally. The whole idea is to have<BR>&gt; an XML structure that can be used to import and export data from an<BR>&gt; application so that it can be used by others. Its a data-sharing<BR>&gt; tool, not an application database.<BR><BR>This is exactly how I was envisioning it.&nbsp; The project I'm working on<BR>is an SQL database that can handle this data.&nbsp; You have raised a few<BR>points in your XML that I have realised I would have some difficulty<BR>modeling in my current design.&nbsp; I'm looking to make gs-db as flexible<BR>as I can make it in what it can store.&nbsp; Eventually I'd like to be able<BR>to store individual characters in the database, and be able to move<BR>them from location to location, simply change the parent_id field and<BR>they are there.&nbsp; (Which just makes me realise I'll need some sort of<BR>'jump space' location for ships in transit, with destination location<BR>and times recorded)<BR><BR>&gt; Thanks for the feedback on this stage. I'll make the change to the<BR>&gt; "local" flag, add a second layer for subsectors and then start<BR>&gt; looking at the really tricky one...systems...after I post the<BR>&gt; updated XML.&nbsp; When I add subsectors, by the way, I will do it so<BR>&gt; that a document can contain either one or more sectors, one or more<BR>&gt; subsectors, or one or more sectors (which include one or more<BR>&gt; subsectors) or one or more sectors (which include pointers to one or<BR>&gt; more subsectors in the same or a different document). That should<BR>&gt; allow any level of detail or simplification on the XML.<BR><BR>Let me know what change you make so I can make sure I can reflect this<BR>in gs-db.&nbsp; Thanks.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24<BR>http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net<BR>jupiter: 8:27pm up 58 days, 10:07, 4 users, load average: 1.07, 0.71, 0.37<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:06:37 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Astrogation design<BR><BR>On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 11:26:42AM -0000, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Border Table<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I'd suggest putting the Alignment in the System Table unless you<BR>&gt; &gt; specifically want to allocate Alignements to empty hexes.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Exactly.&nbsp; The best way I could come up with to implement&nbsp; borders<BR>&gt; that matched published canon was to allocate allignments to empty<BR>&gt; hexs (which I know sounds kind of dumb when you&nbsp; first&nbsp; think&nbsp; of<BR>&gt; it).&nbsp; Check out the screenshot on StuffOnline for an&nbsp; example&nbsp; of<BR>&gt; the Jewell subsector as displayed in my half finished program ...<BR>&gt; complete with borders.<BR><BR>Actually, coming up with any sensible border table at all requires you to<BR>give alignments to empty hexes.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 01:38:20 -0000<BR>From: "Ben Aaronovitch" &lt;bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>I'm red-brown colour blind and I find it almost impossible to explain how the<BR>world looks to me even to other red-brown colour blind people.<BR><BR>People with full colour sight can't understand what I'm talking about at all.<BR><BR>For example:<BR>'What colour is that?'<BR>'It's red.'<BR>'So you can see red?'<BR>'I can see that that red thing is red yes.'<BR>'So you can see red?'<BR>'I can generally differentiate primary red from brown but mostly I know its red<BR>because its a London Bus.'<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR>'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Thing &lt;thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 7:36 PM<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR><BR>&gt; On Thursday, March 08, 2001 11:31 AM<BR>&gt; Gerry Harris,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; As are something like 20%-30% of Caucasian males, or maybe it's blue-green<BR>&gt; colour blind.&nbsp; I'll have to go check my visual design reference books.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; G.D.D.<BR>&gt; ThingUnderTheStairs<BR>&gt; Minion of SheChemist and GothBunny<BR>&gt; Grand Master of the Electron Flow<BR>&gt; ===========================<BR>&gt; "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite<BR>&gt; you.&nbsp; That is the principal difference between a dog and a man." -Mark Twain<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 01:39:51 -0000<BR>From: "Ben Aaronovitch" &lt;bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>Some humans are amenable to training.<BR><BR>Others believe that cats are a form of evil parasitic space alien.<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR>'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>To: traveller mailing aa list &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 10:04 PM<BR>Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt;From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;The cat/human symbiosis is a little more tenuous but we get along quite<BR>&gt; &gt;well with them also. While cats aren't as amenable to training as dogs <BR>&gt; &gt;they do quite well hunting the smaller vermin and the purr thing is a <BR>&gt; &gt;wonderfull stress reducer.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A cat would laugh at this comment, but wouldn't be sure whether it was<BR>&gt; naivete or arrogance.&nbsp; Any cat will tell you that it is cats who have<BR>&gt; found humans to be quite amenable to training.&nbsp; The cats even got us to<BR>&gt; worship them as gods in one of our major civilizations a while ago.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; --Glenn<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; __________________________________________________<BR>&gt; Do You Yahoo!?<BR>&gt; Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>&gt; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:22:59 +1100<BR>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>Subject: Hyphen's Combat Rules and KB3<BR><BR>Dear Folks -<BR><BR>The first draft of the KB3 Traveller Task System (v0.5) is now up on my<BR>webpage.<BR><BR>Go to Tavonni Repair Bays ==&gt; Hyphen's Combat Rules ==&gt; The Task Roll ==&gt;<BR>The KB3 Traveller Task System.<BR><BR>I still have about 22 emails from Kenneth to look through, so some of the<BR>more advanced elements are missing (such as Skill Options, Static Target<BR>Numbers for GM's, Optional E-Die Usage, etc). Fortunately, I already had<BR>most of the info he sent (which is where the write-up came from in the<BR>first place), so it should just be a matter of adding a few things, adding<BR>examples, and polishing the text. The section on Skills, for example, needs<BR>some work - I'm thinking on splitting it into Character Skills, Explicit<BR>Level-0 Skills, and Default (Assumed) Level-0 Skills - then explaining what<BR>each means.<BR><BR>Also, I'll probably end up adding the KB3 Experience System as a separate<BR>document.<BR><BR>Comments are welcome, but bear in mind that this is a alpha release, and<BR>there is still some work yet to be done!<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material &amp; opinions contained within are solely those<BR>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:05:48 -0600<BR>From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions &lt;dreamer@brokersys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Hyphen's Combat Rules and KB3<BR><BR>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; The section on Skills, for example, needs<BR>&gt; some work - I'm thinking on splitting it into Character Skills, Explicit<BR>&gt; Level-0 Skills, and Default (Assumed) Level-0 Skills - then explaining what<BR>&gt; each means.<BR><BR>Sounds like a good idea.<BR><BR>Kenneth.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:59:24 -0500<BR>From: "Daniel Phelps" &lt;phelpsd@gate.net&gt;<BR>Subject: What Kind of Vargr are you?<BR><BR>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR><BR>- ------=_NextPart_000_01F7_01C0A81B.0997CAA0<BR>Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR>Two posts that have nothing serious to add to the current Vargr debate.&nbsp; =<BR>The first with a Traveller twist asks what kind of Vargr are you.<BR><BR>http://www.emode.com/dog/<BR><BR><BR><BR>The second is a filched poem from another very strange list I've =<BR>Travellerized.<BR><BR><BR>The clicking of their thunderin' paws,<BR>Ne'er will prepare ye,<BR>For the sight of this horde,<BR>Will sure amaze and scare ye.<BR><BR>Bodies small, numbers vast,<BR>The sight will surely awe ye.<BR>Ye'll be knocked from off yer feet,<BR>By theVargrian Chihuahuas.<BR><BR>They'll chew ankles an' bring ye down,<BR>An' put ye in yer place.<BR>They'll make ye beg for mercy,<BR>By licking ears an' face.<BR><BR>An' yet the cruelty is nay done,<BR>By those beasts that rampage for us.<BR>Ye'll be rendered deaf an' mad,<BR>By their yapping chorus.<BR><BR>These mighty beasts have courage,<BR>Fearless, and so bold.<BR>Then why do brave beasts quake so much?<BR>"Meng, we're reely cold!"<BR><BR>They'll tear ye oop from limb to limb,<BR>Yer defeat t'will true embarrass.<BR>So fear the mighty Yapping Horde,<BR>Chihuahuas de Vargr!<BR><BR><BR>- ------=_NextPart_000_01F7_01C0A81B.0997CAA0<BR>Content-Type: text/html;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR>&lt;!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;HEAD&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =<BR>http-equiv=3DContent-Type&gt;<BR>&lt;META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR&gt;<BR>&lt;/HEAD&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;DIV&gt;Two posts that have nothing serious to add to the current Vargr=20<BR>debate.&amp;nbsp; The first with a Traveller twist asks what kind of Vargr =<BR>are=20<BR>you.&lt;/DIV&gt;<BR>&lt;DIV&gt;<BR>&lt;A=20<BR>href=3D"http://www.emode.com/dog/"&gt;http://www.emode.com/dog/</A><BR>&lt;/DIV=<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;DIV&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;<BR>&lt;DIV&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;<BR>&lt;DIV&gt;<FONT color=#3d0000>The second is a filched poem from another =<BR>very strange=20<BR>list I've Travellerized.</FONT>&lt;/DIV&gt;<BR>&lt;DIV&gt;<FONT color=#3d0000></FONT>&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;<BR>&lt;DIV&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;<BR>&lt;DIV&gt;The clicking of their thunderin' paws,<BR>Ne'er will prepare =<BR>ye,<BR>For the=20<BR>sight of this horde,<BR>Will sure amaze and scare ye.<BR><BR>Bodies =<BR>small,=20<BR>numbers vast,<BR>The sight will surely awe ye.<BR>Ye'll be knocked from =<BR>off yer=20<BR>feet,<BR>By theVargrian Chihuahuas.<BR><BR>They'll chew ankles an' bring =<BR>ye=20<BR>down,<BR>An' put ye in yer place.<BR>They'll make ye beg for =<BR>mercy,<BR>By=20<BR>licking ears an' face.<BR><BR>An' yet the cruelty is nay done,<BR>By =<BR>those=20<BR>beasts that rampage for us.<BR>Ye'll be rendered deaf an' mad,<BR>By =<BR>their=20<BR>yapping chorus.<BR><BR>These mighty beasts have courage,<BR>Fearless, =<BR>and so=20<BR>bold.<BR>Then why do brave beasts quake so much?<BR>&amp;quot;Meng, we're =<BR>reely=20<BR>cold!&amp;quot;<BR><BR>They'll tear ye oop from limb to limb,<BR>Yer defeat =<BR>t'will=20<BR>true embarrass.<BR>So fear the mighty Yapping Horde,<BR>Chihuahuas de=20<BR>Vargr!<BR>&lt;/DIV&gt;<BR><BR>- ------=_NextPart_000_01F7_01C0A81B.0997CAA0--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3784<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; 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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xc01.mx.aol.com (rly-xc01.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.134]) by air-xc04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:11:02 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xc01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:10:23 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA82114;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:09:20 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:08:29 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA82070<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:08:29 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:08:29 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103090308.WAA82070@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3784<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, March 9 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3785<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Leviathan--sort of<BR>Re: Cloning Robots<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR>RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: Introduction<BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>Re: Cutter Books<BR>Re: Introduction<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Preferred method to entering buildings<BR>Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR>RE: dogs &amp; humans<BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:08:40 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Leviathan--sort of<BR><BR>I am attempting to design a GURPS Traveller version of the Leviathan-class<BR>IGS vessel the IISS Nicolas de Nicolay. As in all my starship design<BR>endeavors I am using Tom Bont's great modular design program GURPS Traveller<BR>Shipyard. Since I want the ship to be compatible with GT:Starships, when it<BR>comes out, I'm using the Repository from the playtest.<BR><BR>I'm hoping Tom or one of the other ship design gurus will answer a few<BR>questions for me. According to Adv 4 the Leviathans have two 300 dton<BR>demountable fuel tanks. The program doesn't seem to have any way that I can<BR>add the fuel tanks without them counting toward the vessel's hull tonnage.<BR>(Since they are external they should count against the jump drive distance<BR>calculation, but not the internal hull volume.) Next question is how do I<BR>model the couplings for the fuel tanks? Do I use Turrets with External<BR>clamps installed rated for the stons of the fuel tanks?<BR><BR>Since I'm doing the IGS variant I need a ventral and dorsal external craft<BR>cradle for the 100 dton scout craft. I pretty sure that the program requires<BR>a hardpoint or turret be installed and then that the cradle be installed in<BR>the turret, but I'd like Tom or someone to point out if I'm going about this<BR>wrong.<BR><BR>The lifeboats I'm pretty sure should be in vehicle bays. But should the<BR>Shuttle and pinnace be in a spacedock or two vehicle bays?<BR><BR>I'm entirely unsure of how to handle the emergency personnel capsules. The<BR>whole idea is silly really. Four emergency capsules in addition to the<BR>lifeboats, each one good for one person. Just enough for a group of PC's to<BR>escape in if things get too dicey, while the rest of the NPC crew goes down<BR>with the ship. And the rest of the tubes (2 on deck D, 2 on deck E) are used<BR>for drones or missiles. I suspect I'll just include a probe module to launch<BR>drones and maybe model the capsule tubes as individual .5 dton vehicle bays<BR>with work capsules in them.<BR><BR>I'll post the design as soon as it's finished, so someone please help me fix<BR>the warts.<BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:14:24 -0500<BR>From: Thom Jones-Low &lt;tjoneslo@together.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cloning Robots<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:33:32 -0600<BR>&gt; From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Cloning Robots<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; At 07:22 PM 3/7/2001 -0500, Thomas Jones-Low wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; This concept has already been done almost to death. The original DPG<BR>&gt; &gt;adventures in the Traveller Digest were all based around the Robiticist,<BR>&gt; &gt;his experimental robot, and their travel through the Imperium.<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; IIRC, they managed to get to Capital just in time to see Dulinor<BR>&gt; &gt; shoot<BR>&gt; &gt;Strephon, then escaped rimward and back to the Marches via the Aslan.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; No, they were about 11 years too early (1105) for the assassination, but<BR>&gt; they did get to see Norris' holorep petitioning the emperor for command of<BR>&gt; the Spinward Marches fleets should war break out with the Zhodani<BR>&gt; (5FW).&nbsp; If you can get a copy of 101 robots, they have the break down for<BR>&gt; AB-101 (Aybee Wan Owen (sp?)) and his cost is about MCr11, but he is<BR>&gt; cutting edge tech.&nbsp; There is another pseudo-bio robot listed for about MCr1.5.<BR>&gt; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; I've got a copy of 101 Robots somewhere in my Traveller collection. I<BR>think a big part of AB-101's cost was the near AI TL16 robotic brain the<BR>doctor put into him. Personally I think the doctor pulled a<BR>Frankenstein, and had a brain in a bottle in AB-101's chest. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thomas Jones-Low<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; tjoneslo@together.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:29:52 -0600<BR>From: Sinbad Sam &lt;sinbad@hex.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>At 01:47 AM 03/08/2001, you wrote:<BR>&gt;At 10:12 PM -0800 3/7/01, John Lambert wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; I've always provided for the existance of breeds of Vargr. I also<BR>&gt;&gt; seem to recall some canon statements supporting the idea. As flexible<BR>&gt;&gt; as the canine species is, it would be able to adjust rapidly to suit<BR>&gt;&gt; the environments of different worlds, maybe several times on each<BR>&gt;&gt; world. There was a show, I think on Discovery (maybe the same one<BR>&gt;&gt; that was on the BBC), tracing the spread of canines across the globe<BR>&gt;&gt; (independent of the human-dog association) and showing how they<BR>&gt;&gt; changed size, coat, metabolism, circulation patterns, etc. to adapt<BR>&gt;&gt; to each new environmental opening.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Digest Group Publications did this in Vilani and Vargr.&nbsp; There were <BR>&gt;the sub-species of Urzaeng Vargr who were larger and stronger <BR>&gt;than normal (STR &amp; END 2d+2, DEX &amp; INT 2d-1). In the book there <BR>&gt;were supposed to have originally be bred by the Ancients for <BR>&gt;menial work and guard duty.&nbsp; THey also described an exceedingly <BR>&gt;rare&nbsp; pygmy sub-species (the Kokasha) and a wacky blind psionic <BR>&gt;sub-species.&nbsp; I really liked the Urzaeng and the Kokasha, but the <BR>&gt;Roth Thokken (the blind psis) were perhaps a bit too odd.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;All these sub-species were small minorities and the only one that <BR>&gt;were at all common were the Urzaeng.&nbsp; I'd say maybe ~10% of <BR>&gt;Vargr are minor sub-species and around 95% of those are are <BR>&gt;Urzaeng.\<BR><BR>Well the list from V&amp;V is:<BR>Kokasha/Rukhs Dall(mental at expense of physical)nearly extinct<BR>Akumgeda/Ksinanirz(weird psi powers)<BR>Nakagun/Listanaya(weird psi powers)<BR>Roth Thokken/Angfitsag(weird psi powers)it was noted in the story pages in the vargr section that some vargr(Roth Thokken) were stepping over an IR detector beam fence, but did not have any visible IR gear being worn.<BR><BR>The rest of the subspecies were "..members of many different sub species exist in small numbers scattered throughtout the Extents and Enclaves, awaiting discovery by curious sophontologists."<BR><BR>V&amp;V page 63<BR><BR>Sinbad Sam<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:28:51 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; This brings up the question:&nbsp; Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to<BR>be <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; a comic genius or a racist stereotype?<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Tragic hero.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; You've been reading Grant Morrison's Animal Man, haven't you?<BR><BR>Is it that obvious?&nbsp; :-)<BR><BR>Of course, long before I ever read "The Coyote Gospel" I rooted for Wile.<BR>Everything he does *should* work, but life (and those damned Acme<BR>products) conspires against him.&nbsp; Still, he doesn't let it stop him, and<BR>he just keeps on trying.<BR><BR>Wile is my hero.<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:19:47 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>Mexal wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;On payment, UK law states that: -<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>1&gt;. By offering to sell, and posting prices for, an item, there is an<BR>i&gt;mplicit contract the terms of which are met by<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;2. You offering ('tendering' is the technical term) payment of at least<BR><BR>&gt;the value asked for the item using coin of the realm - which is called<BR>&gt;'legal tender' erm, because it is the thing you legally are supposed to<BR><BR>&gt;tender.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;If the shopkeeper refuses to take 'legal tender' in exchange for goods<BR>he<BR>&gt;has on sale, he is in breach of the law. Unless he says, when you come<BR>in,<BR>&gt;that he is closed, or doesn't want to sell to YOU.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;They are allowed to set terms on other forms of payment: cheques,<BR>&gt;credit/debit cards, charge cards, etc. About the only thing with real<BR>hard<BR>&gt;cash is that they can refuse to accept a really massive pile of small<BR>&gt;coins (e.g. paying a hundred pounds in two-pence coins!).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;If the same held good in the 3I, that the Imperial Credit is 'legal<BR>&gt;tender', then the barman would have to accept it unless he decided to<BR>&gt;ban you from the premises (wise move with most TRAVELLER parties I've<BR>&gt;refereed!).<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>OK, how is the situation handled if there is more than one form of<BR>"legal tender"?&nbsp; (I am hoping for an answer from those in Europe, who<BR>are in the process of changing to the Euro)&nbsp; Canon states that worlds<BR>have thier own currency.&nbsp; Can a shop keeper post a sign that he only<BR>accepts one but not the other?&nbsp; My example, was that in areas far from<BR>the sources of Imperial Currency that fewer shopkeepers would accept it<BR>(i.e. that it is harder for them to exchange it for things that they<BR>need or want).&nbsp; Can a shopkeeper post a notice that prices are in "local<BR>Cr" and that the exchange rate is 20CrImp to 1 "local Cr" when at the<BR>starport the exchange rate is 20 "local Cr" to 1 CrImp?<BR><BR>Charles H<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:28:51 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise<BR><BR>Peez wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Charles H writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;Total layman's question:&nbsp; are the different breeds of dog, like<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;The different breeds of dogs are all the same species (Canis<BR>&gt;&gt;familiaris), some call them seperate sub-species.<BR>&gt;&gt;ObTrav: Alien Modules 6 calls them seperate sub-species.<BR>&gt;&gt;Dogs, wolves (Canis lupis), and coyotes (Canis latrans) are<BR>&gt;&gt;interfertile, and thus may be misclassified as seperate species.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Just to be fair to the taxonomists, even if they are<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; interfertile, and even if that applies to all populations<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and is complete (no reduction in viability of offspring),<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; considering them different species is not necessarily<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "misclassifying" them.&nbsp; Although we may accept the<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "biological species concept" for use with humaniti in<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Traveller, it is not the universal definition in the Real<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; World (tm).<BR><BR>I stand corrected.<BR><BR>Thanks<BR>Charles H<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:55:14 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Volker wrote:<BR>&gt; Am Tuesday, March 06, 2001, las ich folgendes:<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;Budweisser bought in Europe is actually brewed in Europe (printed<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;very small on the ads).&nbsp; And that's on the same planet.<BR>&gt; &gt; And Budweiser in Canada is brewed in Canada, and makes a big deal of it.<BR>&gt; But European -Budweiser has nothing to do with American Budweiser.<BR>&gt; Completely different company from the Czech town of Budweis. They won<BR>&gt; a legal battle to the rights of the name.<BR>&gt; What you call budweiser, if at all found in Europe (only very seldom)<BR>&gt; is sold as "B".<BR><BR>Well, here in Finland we have (or at least had a couple of years ago) both<BR>the Czech Budweiser and the American Budweiser. (No, I can't think of a<BR>reason to import American Bud, we produce our own p*** very well, thank<BR>you. It might be the feeling of drinking an American drink, though...)<BR><BR>- -- <BR>+++++++++[&gt;+++++++++&lt;-]&gt;-.&lt;+++++[&gt;+++&lt;-]++&gt;++.&lt;++[&gt;++++&lt;-]+&gt;+.&lt;++[&gt;----<BR>&lt;-]&gt;-.&gt;+++[&gt;++++++++++&lt;-]++&gt;++pare@iki.fi&lt;+[&gt;++++&lt;-]&gt;+.-&gt;+[&gt;++++[&lt;&lt;---&gt;<BR>&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;.&gt;&gt;+++++++[&lt;++++++++++&gt;-]++++[&lt;+++++&gt;-]&lt;-.&gt;[-]&gt;+++[&gt;++[&lt;&lt;&lt;----&gt;&gt;<BR>&lt;&gt;&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;&lt;.+.&gt;[-]++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;.++.[-]&gt;[-]++++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;++.&gt;&gt;++[&gt;++[&gt;-&lt;-]&lt;--]<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 22:06:29 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)<BR><BR>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>&gt; Frank G. Pitt writes:<BR>&gt; &gt; Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I've been a professional programmer since 1987,&nbsp; worked&nbsp; for&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; construction industry,&nbsp; automotive,&nbsp; telecoms,&nbsp; several&nbsp; merchant<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; banks, software houses, and multinationals.&nbsp; My question is this:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; what's a "pointer"?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; A block of memory, ontaining the memory address of some other block of<BR>&gt; &gt; memory.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hm...I'd call a pointer 'a variable containing the address of a block of<BR>&gt; memory'.<BR><BR>Actually, I agree my definition is not complete, it needs to be stated that<BR>you can modify the value of the block of memory for it to be a "pointer"<BR>rather than a "reference", which calling it a "variable" implies.<BR><BR>The reason I didn't use the term "variable" is that in C and C++ it doesn't<BR>have to be a "variable" as defined by the langage to use it as a pointer.<BR><BR>For instance you can malloc a block of memory, and then use part of _that_<BR>memory&nbsp; as a pointer, without ever declaring the block of memory to be a<BR>"variable".<BR><BR>&gt; Several languages use pointer-like objects without calling them<BR>&gt; pointers, however -- for example, a 'new X' call in an object-oriented<BR>&gt; language returns what is functionally a pointer.<BR><BR>Sort of. For instance, C++ does, but Java doesn't.<BR><BR>For it to be a pointer you have to be able to directly modify the _value_ of<BR>the block of memory.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 22:12:41 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>Ben Aaronovitch wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; Some humans are amenable to training.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Others believe that cats are a form of evil parasitic space alien.<BR><BR>And some humans train cats.<BR><BR>My wife, for instance, has trained two of our cats to roll over on command,<BR>and one of them to jump up onto a bed on command.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 01:10:01 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Introduction<BR><BR>- --- Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I have a suggestion for an essay subject:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Describe the impact that widely available nanotechnology would have on the<BR>&gt;Official Traveller Universe.<BR><BR><BR>Strike Me pink.....I'm just a simple Grunt, what the hell is an essay? &lt;weg&gt;<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 01:19:39 -0800<BR>From: "Kelly St.Clair" &lt;kellys@efn.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;The cats even got us to worship them as gods in one of our major <BR>&gt;civilizations a while ago.<BR><BR>More importantly, cats have never forgotten this.<BR><BR><BR>- --------------<BR>Kelly St.Clair&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "'Cause you've got Trouble<BR>kellys@efn.org&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Right here in fair Verona<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; With a capital T that rhymes with D<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; That stands for Duel..."<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:22:34 +0100<BR>From: Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cutter Books<BR><BR>Loren Wiseman wrote:<BR>&gt; I am reliably informed that these were drop-shipped to the distribution<BR>&gt; chain, and should be arriving at your US FLGS any time between this weekend<BR>&gt; and next weekend. We get ours (for W23) Monday.<BR><BR>I will order it, either from W23 or from my local shop if possible (actually<BR>cheaper that way).<BR><BR>&gt; Go look at the cool Jesse art on the cover and inside.<BR><BR>As always.<BR><BR>&gt; I've been trying to get this book published for 10 years, and finally did it.<BR><BR>Congratulations! Some people may have their doubts about this book, but I feel<BR>that it will be both useful and inspiring.<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:30:02 +0100<BR>From: Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Introduction<BR><BR>Antaine wrote:<BR>&gt; Strike Me pink.....I'm just a simple Grunt, what the hell is an essay? &lt;weg&gt;<BR><BR>Traditionally, list newbies are required to write an essay on a topic allocated<BR>by the list. The topics are either topics of past flamewars, past jokes, or just<BR>overly complicated.<BR><BR>In case you haven't guessed, its just another one of our past jokes. Sometimes,<BR>however, a person actually writes something and posts it. The resulting<BR>discussion of an old subject using this new view of the problem can be very<BR>entertaining.<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:29 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) &gt;<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;Pine.OSF.4.10.10103090749520.5461-100000@akvamariini.hut.fi&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>In the UK, you can get both US Budweiser and a (superior) product from <BR>Czechoslovakia called Budvar. Budweiser, incidentally, is far nicer served <BR>draught than from bottles, but I only know one place locally that does <BR>that (it's a US style diner/burger place).<BR><BR>But I'm a 'real ale' drinker and my favourite watering hole brews its <BR>own... the beer I like best is actually a 3.2 called Charles I (the head <BR>brewer is an English Civil War enthusiast and names all his brews after <BR>personalities and events from that period!).<BR><BR>There's probably an ObTrav in that, erm... no doubt you'll find someone <BR>serving locally brewed ales named after Imperial notables. Fancy a pint of <BR>Strephon's Armpit, anyone? Or Old Dulinor Piss?<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:29 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;3AA867F0.F1132FF3@gte.net&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>Currency transactions can be vastly amusing (especially to the DM!).<BR><BR>In 1990 I visited Russia. The 'official' exchange rate was one rouble to <BR>one pound sterling. Any black market street corner entrepreneur would <BR>offer you 30 roubles for your pound, so the official exhangers did <BR>virtually no business. Eventually the government realised that they were <BR>losing out, and reset the official rate to 10 roubles to the pound. A lot <BR>of people then played safe by using the official changers, the risk being <BR>no longer worth the profit!<BR><BR>I'm sure the same sort of thing happens on planets in TRAVELLER. Just as <BR>in Europe, some nations have adopted the Euro and others have not, so <BR>planetary governments will be making choices about what constitutes legal <BR>tender... and traders decide what they will accept. For example, in my <BR>globetrotting, I have found few places that will not accept a US dollar <BR>(except in the Arab world!).<BR><BR>Sometimes I will decide that a planet uses a local currency - for example <BR>I have one world called Legeza, that uses a currency made up of Sheckels <BR>and Bits (100 Bits = 1 Sheckel, there is also a 25 Sheckel coin called a <BR>Wheel). Nobody will look at a CrImp (I love that term and intend to use it <BR>henceforth!), so moneychangers at the starport do a roaring trade. Other <BR>planets have adopted the CrImp entirely, or accept it in parallel with <BR>local currency.<BR><BR>Imperial Law, I would imagine, requires the acceptance of CrImp as legal <BR>tender. However it's down to the planetary government (if sovereign) to <BR>decide if they want to use their own currency for purely local <BR>transactions. Any Imperial contract would be specified in CrImps, and <BR>Imperial military, etc., personnel on planet are paid therein - but can <BR>draw local currency from the cash officer if they prefer. (Those of you <BR>who have served in the military no doubt are familiar with being paid in <BR>local currency when overseas, although your actual pay is in the currency <BR>of the nation you serve.)<BR><BR>Official exchange rates may be either set by government or traded on the <BR>open market. That probably depends on the nature of the planetary <BR>government (i.e. how much fiscal control they wish to exert) and the <BR>nature of the relationships and treaty agreements between that planet and <BR>the Imperium.<BR><BR>More bumpf straight off the top of my head...<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:48:51 GMT<BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;OK, how is the situation handled if there is more than one form of<BR>&gt;"legal tender"?&nbsp; (I am hoping for an answer from those in Europe, who<BR>&gt;are in the process of changing to the Euro)&nbsp; Canon states that worlds<BR>&gt;have thier own currency.&nbsp; Can a shop keeper post a sign that he only<BR>&gt;accepts one but not the other?&nbsp; <BR><BR>If a currency is legal tender, then, by definition, it's illegal for<BR>the shopkeeper to refuse to accept it.&nbsp; <BR><BR>(I *think* that if he did refuse to take the money, you would be<BR>within your rights to leave it lying on the counter and walk out the<BR>shop with your goods.&nbsp; But I wouldn't recommend doing this in practice<BR>until you've checked the position with a lawyer...)<BR><BR>As I recall, when the UK decimalised its currency back in the 1970s,<BR>both the old and the new coins and notes were legal tender for a short<BR>changeover period.&nbsp; There was a fixed exchange rate (one old shilling<BR>= 5 new pence), and all prices had to be quoted in the new currency.<BR>Very quickly, the old coins were withdrawn from circulation by the<BR>banks, and then their legal tender status was revoked.&nbsp; I imagine the<BR>same will be done in those countries introducing the Euro next year.<BR>(Although I understand it's already compulsory in the Eurozone to<BR>display prices in both currencies).<BR><BR>&gt;My example, was that in areas far from<BR>&gt;the sources of Imperial Currency that fewer shopkeepers would accept it<BR>&gt;(i.e. that it is harder for them to exchange it for things that they<BR>&gt;need or want).&nbsp; Can a shopkeeper post a notice that prices are in "local<BR>&gt;Cr" and that the exchange rate is 20CrImp to 1 "local Cr" when at the<BR>&gt;starport the exchange rate is 20 "local Cr" to 1 CrImp?<BR><BR>If the CrImp is legal tender on the world, then no he can't.&nbsp; However,<BR>I personally doubt that the Imperium will insist on planets making the<BR>CrImp legal tender for *internal* transactions - see my earlier post<BR>on this.<BR><BR>For an example of how this might work, consider the Euro - this<BR>currency is already in use for intergovernment transactions in Europe,<BR>and multinational companies publish their accounts in Euros;&nbsp; but it<BR>is impossible for an ordinary citizen to go into a bank and ask for<BR>money in Euro notes, because there aren't any in circulation yet.<BR><BR>Alternatively, consider any of the countries with fixed exchange<BR>controls and non-convertible currencies.&nbsp; The locals can only obtain<BR>local currency, which they have to spend in local shops.&nbsp; Tourists who<BR>come in with hard currency can go to special government-run tourist<BR>shops and spend their dollars, Euros, pounds etc on luxury goods.&nbsp; The<BR>government then uses this hard currency to purchase goods from abroad<BR>for its own use.&nbsp; There is probably also a black market, aimed at<BR>obtaining hard currency from tourists and distributing it to the<BR>locals - who can then use it to buy luxury imported goods.<BR><BR><BR>If you *do* have two separate currencies that are both legal tender,<BR>then complications arise.&nbsp; Do you have a fixed exchange rate between<BR>them?&nbsp; Then if the real value of one currency drops (due to outside<BR>forces - maybe the Sector Duke has printed a few bushels of new CrImps<BR>to finance his personal yacht) the other currency will be hoarded, or<BR>people may start illegally refusing to accept the cheaper currency, or<BR>unofficially adjusting its value in transactions.&nbsp; If both currencies<BR>can float in value, then every transaction becomes an adventure, as<BR>the shopkeeper decides how much he's going to have to charge in each<BR>currency.&nbsp; On a high-tech world, everyone would need a computer<BR>plugged into the currency exchange markets to work out prices every<BR>time they bought a loaf of bread...<BR><BR>As for a real-life example of this situation, the only one I can think<BR>of is bimetallism, when both silver and gold coinage was legal tender<BR>- - and the supply of silver and gold was independent of each other.<BR>That led to periodic bursts of inflation and depression as new mines<BR>were opened and closed.<BR><BR>Stephen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:51:39 EST<BR>From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Preferred method to entering buildings<BR><BR>- --part1_55.123c1db3.27da2bdb_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><BR>&gt;"The preferred method of entering a building is to use a tank main gun <BR>&gt;round, direct fire artillery round, or TOW, Dragon, or Hellfire missile <BR><BR>I prefer on my own two feet, or even better inside the tank, riding one of <BR>those rounds or a missile is a little hard on the body at my age.......<BR><BR>Bryan<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_55.123c1db3.27da2bdb_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2><BR><BR>&amp;gt;"The preferred method of entering a building is to use a tank main gun <BR><BR>&amp;gt;round, direct fire artillery round, or TOW, Dragon, or Hellfire missile <BR><BR><BR><BR>I prefer on my own two feet, or even better inside the tank, riding one of <BR><BR>those rounds or a missile is a little hard on the body at my age.......<BR><BR><BR><BR>Bryan<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_55.123c1db3.27da2bdb_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:55:51 EST<BR>From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?<BR><BR>- --part1_a2.1128dd34.27da2cd7_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR>Actually in canon there are (or is) room for different breeds. If I remember <BR>correctly there is a blind(?) Vargr race in Gvurrdon sector for instance. <BR>However, I don't think there is room for too many variations.<BR><BR>Bryan<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_a2.1128dd34.27da2cd7_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>Actually in canon there are (or is) room for different breeds. If I remember <BR><BR>correctly there is a blind(?) Vargr race in Gvurrdon sector for instance. <BR><BR>However, I don't think there is room for too many variations.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Bryan<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_a2.1128dd34.27da2cd7_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:11:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: dogs &amp; humans<BR><BR>DaveShayne<BR>&gt;I won't argue the point a whole bunch. I am saying that the capabilities of<BR>&gt;humans and dogs are complementary and so lead to a good symbiotic<BR>&gt;relationship.<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; FYI: a common missuse of the term "symbiosis" is to refer to a<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mutually beneficial relationship between two organisms.&nbsp; In fact,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; it means a very close relationship between two organisms.&nbsp; Thus,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a tapeworm and its host are in a symbiotic relationship.&nbsp; When<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the interaction between two organisms is mutually beneficial, it<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; is called a mutualism.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:14:15 EST<BR>From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>- --part1_32.11aa6636.27da3127_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR>Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>Thing writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.<BR>&gt;&gt;As are something like 20%-30% of Caucasian males, or maybe it's blue-green<BR>&gt;&gt;colour blind.=A0 I'll have to go check my visual design reference books.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Red-green colour blindness is the most common, occuring in<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 something like 5-8% of males (in North America, at least),<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 and 0.25-0.6% of females<BR><BR>Gee, and women thought all men are dogs......<BR><BR>(and some men thought all women are bit****)<BR><BR>Bryan<BR>All&nbsp; references to being human are purely fictional and any resemblance to=20<BR>anybody living is purely coincidental.<BR><BR><BR>- --part1_32.11aa6636.27da3127_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR><BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3>Re: Dogs &amp;amp; Human Evol=<BR>ution<BR><BR><BR><BR>Thing writes:<BR><BR>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.<BR><BR>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;As are something like 20%-30% of Caucasian males, or maybe it's=20=<BR>blue-green<BR><BR>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;colour blind.=A0 I'll have to go check my visual design referenc=<BR>e books.<BR><BR>&amp;gt;<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Red-green colour blindness is the most common, occur=<BR>ing in<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 something like 5-8% of males (in North America, at l=<BR>east),<BR><BR>&amp;gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 and 0.25-0.6% of females<BR><BR><BR><BR>Gee, and women thought all men are dogs......<BR><BR><BR><BR>(and some men thought all women are bit****)<BR><BR><BR><BR>Bryan<BR><BR>All &amp;nbsp;references to being human are purely fictional and any resembl=<BR>ance to=20<BR><BR>anybody living is purely coincidental.<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_32.11aa6636.27da3127_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3785<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xb05.mx.aol.com (rly-xb05.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.106]) by air-xb02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:16:39 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xb05.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:16:18 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id IAA05124;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:15:47 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:14:54 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id IAA05038<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:14:54 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:14:54 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103091314.IAA05038@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3785<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, March 9 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3786<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: 3d Walkthroughs<BR>RE: 3d Walkthroughs<BR>re: Intro<BR>15mm Laserburn Troopers and Vehicles miniatures on Ebay<BR>RE: Imperial and local currency<BR>RE: 3d Walkthroughs<BR>RE: Wealth<BR>RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR>RE: [URL] Superconductors!<BR>FNG....Hello folks<BR>RE: FNG....Hello folks<BR>Re: Time shortage<BR>Re: Time shortage<BR>RE: Wealth<BR>Unsubscribe<BR>RE: Unsubscribe<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>RE: Wealth<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>RE: Unsubscribe<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 07:27:59 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: 3d Walkthroughs<BR><BR>On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:33:56 -0500 daveshayne@email.msn.com (DaveShayne) wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Over in the T5 forum somebody is asking about 3D walkthroughs. I seem to<BR>&gt;recal somebody talking about some of these a while ago. Maybe still on the<BR>&gt;net somewhere.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The discusion thread is in the Fleet section of the Citizens of the Imperium<BR>&gt;at Marc's site.<BR><BR>I remember a looong time ago, someone was talking about how they dida starship<BR>in a game level designer (perhaps it was Marathon, perhaps it was Quake)<BR><BR>One possible solution is Design Workshop. This is a 3D CAD program available<BR>at Artifice: http://www.artifice.com <BR><BR>A lite version is avaliable for the cost of downloading it, or $20 on CD (with<BR>a bunch of other stuff). There are two higher levels of the program getting<BR>you more features and a larger workspace (greater number of objects) at $80<BR>and $450...<BR><BR>It's available for both Mac and PC and is a pretty neat program for slapping<BR>together a quick walkthrough.<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:47:54 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: 3d Walkthroughs<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; (DaveShayne) wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Over in the T5 forum somebody is asking about 3D walkthroughs.<BR>&gt; &gt; I seem to recal somebody talking about some of these a while<BR>&gt; &gt; ago.&nbsp; Maybe still on the net somewhere.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I remember a looong time ago, someone was talking about how they<BR>&gt; dida starship in a game level designer (perhaps it was Marathon,<BR>&gt; perhaps it was Quake)<BR><BR>I found some Marathon stuff during&nbsp; a&nbsp; Website&nbsp; Review&nbsp; of&nbsp; Glenn<BR>Hoppe's "Jumpspace" website (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275).<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:42:29 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Jeff Hopper &lt;jeff37923@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Intro<BR><BR>Now that I know what a newbie essay is, I accept your<BR>challenge Mr. Goffin.&nbsp; <BR>I ask for two things. First about a week to collect<BR>some real world data on radiation sickness beyond my<BR>nuke overview of 12 years ago. Second, the assistance<BR>of the TML members in constructive criticism when the<BR>rules draft is posted here.<BR>I'll hit short-term radiation exposure first.<BR>Long-term radiation exposure will take a lot longer<BR>for me to research. <BR><BR>- --- Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;From: Jeff Hopper &lt;jeff37923@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Does anyone know of a set of rules governing<BR>&gt; &gt;radiation exposure and its damaging effects for CT?<BR>&gt; &gt;I've been able to find a kludge for TNE based on<BR>&gt; &gt;Twilight:2000, but that is all. If anyone knows of<BR>&gt; &gt;any, please let me know.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; DGP wrote some rules for this in Traveller's Digest<BR>&gt; or Megatraveller<BR>&gt; Journal, but I think they apply to MT.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; This would be a good newbie essay.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; --Glenn<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; __________________________________________________<BR>&gt; Do You Yahoo!?<BR>&gt; Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>&gt; http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:54:05 -0500 <BR>From: Glenn Myers &lt;glenn.myers@ansys.com&gt;<BR>Subject: 15mm Laserburn Troopers and Vehicles miniatures on Ebay<BR><BR>Hi all,<BR><BR>I just put up some Laserburn 15mm Troopers and Vehicles (Combat trikes) on<BR>EBAY. I bought out the remaining stock of a UK hobby store and have been<BR>sifting through the stuff deciding what I want to keep.<BR><BR>http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&amp;userid=arathar&amp;inc<BR>lude=0&amp;since=-1&amp;sort=2&amp;rows=25<BR><BR>Also, I recently put up a set of Keith Brothers Folio adventures but they<BR>sold right away. I mention it only because I scanned the covers and the<BR>artwork is cool.<BR><BR>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=568098317<BR><BR>Maybe I was dumb to accept $30 for it, because it went so fast.<BR><BR>Bye,<BR><BR>Glenn (arathar)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:57:27 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Imperial and local currency<BR><BR>According to Far Trader Imperial Credits are issued by Sector Treasuries. I<BR>would assume that the credits are good in any sector, but FT comments on the<BR>Imperium's ability to withdraw backing from credits from a particular<BR>sector, should serious economic disaster strike.<BR><BR>FT also says that the Imperium doesn't practice electronic transactions the<BR>way present Earth cultures do. Banks may make deals between themselves for<BR>letters or credit or drafts, but in the final tally the only way to get<BR>credits from world A to world B is to either transport bales of cash or<BR>transport actual goods.<BR><BR>It strikes me that this would make it harder for the little guy to utilize<BR>interstellar banking, The big boys will always be able to pay somebody to<BR>make it easy for them. (Like Hortelez et Cie for example.)<BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Paul Drye<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:15 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Re: Imperial and local currency<BR><BR>&gt;What are the economic consequences to the Imperium of member states using<BR>&gt;their own currencies internally?&nbsp; Would that harm the economy of the<BR>&gt;Imperium in any way?<BR><BR>If anything, it would help. If a currency is used over a region so large<BR>that the economy isn't even, then it's very difficult to control economic<BR>growth. For example, Region A is going like gangbusters and you want to cool<BR>it off to prevent inflation, but Region B is on the verge of recession and<BR>you want to pump things up. With different currencies in each region, you<BR>can fiddle with the money supply of each. With a single currency across<BR>both, you lose this lever.<BR><BR>An empire more than a two years across is almost certainly too big for a<BR>single currency to be the best solution.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:39:20 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: 3d Walkthroughs<BR><BR>I was part of those discussions about a year(!!!) ago now or so.&nbsp; I'd wanted<BR>to do levels for the [fnord] in Half-Life, but haven't had time.&nbsp; Maybe with<BR>the [fnord...fnord...fnord...]<BR><BR><BR>&lt;modem reports no carrier&gt;<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Trevor, Peter<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 6:48 AM<BR>&gt; To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: 3d Walkthroughs<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; (DaveShayne) wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Over in the T5 forum somebody is asking about 3D walkthroughs.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I seem to recal somebody talking about some of these a while<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; ago.&nbsp; Maybe still on the net somewhere.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I remember a looong time ago, someone was talking about how they<BR>&gt; &gt; dida starship in a game level designer (perhaps it was Marathon,<BR>&gt; &gt; perhaps it was Quake)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I found some Marathon stuff during&nbsp; a&nbsp; Website&nbsp; Review&nbsp; of&nbsp; Glenn<BR>&gt; Hoppe's "Jumpspace" website (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Regards PLST<BR>&gt; (aka Stalin)<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:10:27 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Wealth<BR><BR>Peter Newman writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Let me try to make myself clear. Traveller is a role playing<BR>&gt;game. The question I am asking is "Suppose that the players go<BR>&gt;into the only bar on a low population planet within the Imperium<BR>&gt;and order a drink. The bartender requires payment in advance. For<BR>&gt;some strange and illogical reason of his own he will not take Imperial<BR>&gt;credits as payment, despite the fact that he could spend them easily.<BR>&gt;Can the characters get Imperial law enforcement agents to make<BR>&gt;the bartender take their credits or are they S.O.L.?"<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The question I am asking is not if Imperial credits are generally<BR>&gt;accepted, the question I am asking is "Must Imperial credits,<BR>&gt;as a matter of law, be accepted?" I am simply stating that my<BR>&gt;reading of canon about the fall of the Second Imperium and T4<BR>&gt;canon about the formation of the Third Imperium make me believe<BR>&gt;that the Third Imperium seems like the sort of place that would<BR>&gt;require its people to take Imperial credits. Your mileage may<BR>&gt;vary.<BR><BR>I have to honestly say that I'm surprised at this question. Is there any<BR>legitimate government is existence that does not require business (and<BR>citizens for that matter) within its boarders not to accept its currency? As<BR>a matter of fact the refusal of a person to take the currency of his own<BR>country is usually a sign that the government is near collapse, i.e. the<BR>persons involved feel that the currency will become worthless.<BR><BR>Now I know that there were times in history when people could refuse to take<BR>script, and insist on gold or silver. I don't think that situation applies<BR>here, since the Imperium does not use a back currency.<BR><BR>So the question is, I guess, is the CrImp like the U.S. dollar, or like the<BR>Euro? By that I mean people in the U.S must accept the dollar "for all debts<BR>public and private." The government's standard response is not to kill the<BR>individual involved, but simply to make it impossible for him to operate.<BR>They are not alone in this. If someone won't use the dollar how do they pay<BR>their taxes? Who will rent a building to them? How will they buy their<BR>wares? Basically no one can refuse to use the dollar in isolation.<BR><BR>I'm not sure about how the Euro works, but as I understand it the countries<BR>in the European Union are also keeping their own currency. So you can pay in<BR>either. Can someone refuse Euro's and insist on being paid in Francs? I<BR>don't know. If they could then I suppose Francs would become worth more, in<BR>the real world, if not on the exchange. If enough people felt this way. (I<BR>might be wrong and people might have to take Euro's, in which case my<BR>analogy still works, the real life example is just wrong.)<BR><BR>The best example of how the CrImp might work is the example of the U.S.<BR>dollar, not in the U.S., but overseas. I've traveled all over the world. In<BR>a pinch, in almost every place, I could find someone who would take the U.S.<BR>dollar, even if it was illegal for them to accept in instead of their own<BR>country's currency. (Europe is mostly an exception here, though it's very<BR>easy to find a place to exchange dollars there.) Typically if it was a place<BR>tourist go, they accept the dollar. If it was a bar (or brothel) in a port<BR>city they accept the dollar. Many time the worst shape the local government<BR>was in or the worst their relationship was with the U.S. government, the<BR>more anxious they were to accept the dollar.<BR><BR>Why? Because, unlike their own money, which rose or fell with their own<BR>governments (which changed quite often in some cases) they had confidence<BR>the U.S. would still be around the honor that dollar. That meant other<BR>people would honor that dollar too. It didn't matter if the hated the U.S.<BR>with all their guts. It was a form of currency that had a particular value.<BR>No one made them take it. In most cases they wanted more than their own<BR>money, which was not a stable in value. As I said in some cases it was<BR>actually illegal for them to except it (and me to give it to them.) They<BR>still wanted it, because it was "hard currency", currency that had long term<BR>value. I believe this is the just of Han's statements. He believes that<BR>people will take the CrImp for the same reason so many people take the<BR>dollar.<BR><BR>To get back to your bar: If the bar is&nbsp; in the starport, I'd say he'd have<BR>to take the CrImps. They person to complain to wouldn't be security. The<BR>PC's would have to lodge a complaint with the Starport Authority, who would<BR>probably consider this a lease violation, and out his business would go. If<BR>it was in town, I'd say he just doesn't want off world business. If it's a<BR>backwater then I suspect no one will care, unless all his suppliers want<BR>CrImps, at which time he goes out of business. The ***local*** government<BR>might want ***their*** taxes in CrImp, in which case they might jail him for<BR>refusal to pay. I don't think the government would care that he won't sell<BR>to the PC's though.<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Let me try to connect it. The Rebellion happened because Dulinor<BR>&gt;would not accept Strephon's authority (yes that's a bit simplified).<BR>&gt;Therefore the rebellion was about the extent of imperial power.<BR>&gt;I am asserting that canon (the Warrant of Restoration) gives the<BR>&gt;Imperium the authority (supremacy clause) to do what they feel is<BR>&gt;necessary. Canon (library data and numerous adventures) also establishes<BR>&gt;that the Imperial government sometimes uses that authority. It also<BR>&gt;establishes that currency problems caused the fall of the Rule of<BR>&gt;man (library data). It also establishes (Milieu 0 Campaign) that<BR>&gt;when the Third Imperium was put together Cleon wanted to avoid<BR>&gt;the problems of the First and Second Empires.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Therefore it seems to me that the Imperium would not let people<BR>&gt;not take Imperial Credits. It also seemed to me (and is canon)<BR>&gt;that when people do things the Imperial government does not like<BR>&gt;they sometimes kill them. Therefore not accepting Imperial credits<BR>&gt;is one of the things on the list that of things the Imperium might<BR>&gt;kill people for. I am suggesting that this power was probably used<BR>&gt;on at least one occasion during the Rebellion.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>The Imperial Government will not let world governments not honor the CrImp.<BR>Whether that means that they must accept CrImps at a set exchange rate to<BR>their own currency, or take CrImps directly from offworld visitors is up to<BR>the GM. I don't suspect they would act against ***individuals*** who refuse<BR>the CrImp. Now if banks, companies (there is a differnce between a "Mom &amp;<BR>Pop" business and a company or corporation) refused to take CrImps that is<BR>another matter, which might result in a violent reaction. More likely I just<BR>think the world would be interdicted. Once the standard of living decreases<BR>because there is no trade the populous will come around. (Traveller<BR>interdictions work better than real world ones because the IN doesn't play<BR>games, unlike the U.S. Navy which is hamstrung by lots of rules that allow<BR>massive amounts of contraband to enter and leave the interdicted country the<BR>IN simply blows out of the sky anyone breaking the interdiction.)<BR><BR>(Since Megacorps are primarily owned by the Nobility, who have a lot riding<BR>on the Imperium and the CrImp I suspect a Megacorp Director who refuse to<BR>accept CrImps would find himself running a mining operation on a Corrosive<BR>Atmosphere hellhole for the rest of his career.)<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:33:09 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Dogs &amp; Human Evolution<BR><BR>&gt;From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I'm not even convinced that humans have the greater intellect, although<BR><BR><BR>&gt;I won't argue the point a whole bunch. I am saying that the capabilities <BR>&gt;of humans and dogs are complementary and so lead to a good symbiotic<BR>&gt;relationship.<BR><BR>Agreed.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; The Vargr may well have the best of both capabilities:&nbsp; ki that flows<BR>in<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I kinda made the same point (less eloquently I'll admit) upthread.<BR><BR>I was just continuing your thought.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:29:44 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: [URL] Superconductors!<BR><BR>Certainly an interesting development. Of course the real breakthrough will<BR>be when (and if) we discover high temperature superconductors.<BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Thing<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 4:12 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Fw: [URL] Superconductors!<BR><BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Thing" &lt;thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 12:34 PM<BR>Subject: [URL] Superconductors!<BR><BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010308/sc/plastic_superconductor_1.html<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:13:09 -0500<BR>From: "Mycroft3" &lt;mycroft3@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: FNG....Hello folks<BR><BR>Hi everyone, I am a long time traveller fan, mostly a collector these days.<BR>Just stumbled over the list doing a client's search!<BR><BR>I'll just shut up now and go back to lurking.<BR><BR>Mycroft<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:17:09 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: FNG....Hello folks<BR><BR>Shoundt have said anything Mycroft Now your going to get an Essay Assignment<BR>8P<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Mycroft3 [mailto:mycroft3@earthlink.net]<BR>Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 10:13 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: FNG....Hello folks<BR><BR><BR>Hi everyone, I am a long time traveller fan, mostly a collector these days.<BR>Just stumbled over the list doing a client's search!<BR><BR>I'll just shut up now and go back to lurking.<BR><BR>Mycroft<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:42:25 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Time shortage<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; At 08:53 AM 03/07/01 PST, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;I thought I'd let folks know that I'm likely to be spending a lot less<BR>&gt;&gt;time reading the list for at least a while. <BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;I'm afraid I've found someone^H^H^Hthing more interesting to occupy my<BR>&gt;&gt;time. &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;I'll still be looking in, but I'm going to be skipping a *lot* of stuff.<BR>&gt;&gt;Sorry, but a guy has to have his priorities straight. :-)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; As the Leonard Erickson Breeding Program waits in hushed anticipation...<BR><BR>Sorry, neither of us is planning on having kids. <BR><BR>If the program is willing to settle for a sperm donation, I'm *sure*<BR>she'd be glad to co-operate in helping me provide one. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:44:53 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Time shortage<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G}) wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; I thought I'd let folks know that I'm likely to be spending a<BR>&gt;&gt; lot less time reading the list for at least a while. <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; I'm afraid I've found someone^H^H^Hthing more interesting to<BR>&gt;&gt; occupy my time. &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; I'll still be looking in, but I'm going to be skipping a *lot*<BR>&gt;&gt; of stuff.<BR>&gt;&gt; Sorry, but a guy has to have his priorities straight. :-)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Surely you're missing something&nbsp; here.&nbsp; Relationships&nbsp; are&nbsp; about<BR>&gt; sharing.&nbsp; Educate this other person in the ways of Traveller&nbsp; and<BR>&gt; then you can both share the joy of reading the TML together.&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>Thanks, but there's quite enough to share already. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:24:26 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Wealth<BR><BR>Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>&gt; I'm not sure about how the Euro works, but as I understand it<BR>&gt; the countries in the European Union are also keeping their own<BR>&gt; currency. So you can pay in either. Can someone refuse Euro's<BR>&gt; and insist on being paid in Francs? I don't know. If they could<BR>&gt; then I suppose Francs would become worth more, in the real world,<BR>&gt; if not on the exchange. If enough people felt this way. (I might<BR>&gt; be wrong and people might have to take Euro's, in which case my<BR>&gt; analogy still works, the real life example is just wrong.)<BR><BR>Quick clarification on the Euro:<BR><BR>1) First off, most (but not all) member states&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; European<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Union have 'joined the Euro'.&nbsp; A few (eg.&nbsp; UK,&nbsp; Denmark,&nbsp; etc)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; have declined joining ... initially.&nbsp; In some cases there were<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; compulsory exclusions due to unfavourable economic conditions,<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; in other cases&nbsp; the&nbsp; member&nbsp; state&nbsp; voluntarily&nbsp; declined&nbsp; for<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; political reasons (sometimes dressed up as economic&nbsp; reasons).<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; However, most of the key member states did join.<BR><BR>2) Coins and notes are tokens 'representing'&nbsp; money.&nbsp; On&nbsp; joining<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; the Euro those member&nbsp; state's&nbsp; national&nbsp; currencies&nbsp; actually<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; ceased to exist in the true sense!&nbsp; But the coins and notes of<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; the&nbsp; old&nbsp; currencies&nbsp; remain&nbsp; in&nbsp; circulation&nbsp; as&nbsp; non-decimal<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; denominations of a Euro (thus the exchange rates between these<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; 'currencies' and the Euro are fixed).&nbsp; This is a&nbsp; transitional<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; stage&nbsp; ...&nbsp; soon&nbsp; these&nbsp; non-decimal&nbsp; denominations&nbsp; will&nbsp;&nbsp; be<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; withdrawn leaving just Euro notes and coins.<BR><BR>So, for example, a German shop refusing French Francs is the same<BR>as a US shop refusing&nbsp; certain&nbsp; inconveinent&nbsp; sized&nbsp; bills&nbsp; (like<BR>refusing a $50.00 for a pack of gum).<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; The best example of how the CrImp might work is the example of<BR>&gt; the U.S. dollar, not in the U.S., but overseas.<BR><BR>That's how it works IMTU.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; To get back to your bar: If the bar is&nbsp; in the starport, I'd<BR>&gt; say he'd have to take the CrImps. They person to complain to<BR>&gt; wouldn't be security. The PC's would have to lodge a complaint<BR>&gt; with the Starport Authority, who would probably consider this<BR>&gt; a lease violation, and out his business would go. If it was in<BR>&gt; town, I'd say he just doesn't want off world business. If it's<BR>&gt; a backwater then I suspect no one will care, unless all his<BR>&gt; suppliers want CrImps, at which time he goes out of business.<BR>&gt; The ***local*** government might want ***their*** taxes in<BR>&gt; CrImp, in which case they might jail him for refusal to pay. I<BR>&gt; don't think the government would care that he won't sell to<BR>&gt; the PC's though.<BR><BR>IMTU inside the XT line is off-planet and so&nbsp; the&nbsp; crimp&nbsp; is&nbsp; the<BR>standard currency.&nbsp; Other currencies may be accepted on a&nbsp; barter<BR>basis (and caviat emtor (sp?)).&nbsp; Outside the XT line&nbsp; it&nbsp; depends<BR>on the local government but probably the startown&nbsp; would&nbsp; readily<BR>accept crimps ... but at a fixed rate that is not&nbsp; favourable&nbsp; to<BR>the customer.&nbsp; (I once had a job in a&nbsp; Canadian&nbsp; 7-11&nbsp; store.&nbsp; We<BR>would accept US dollars but you'd get better value if you changed<BR>your US&nbsp; dollars&nbsp; for&nbsp; Canadian&nbsp; dollars&nbsp; at&nbsp; a&nbsp; bank.)&nbsp; Unstable<BR>economies and/or authoritarian regimes&nbsp; would&nbsp; probably&nbsp; restrict<BR>the use of crimps onplanet (maybe even ban them outright).<BR><BR>Offworld trade must be in crimps ... no I'm contradicting myself:<BR>Say a merchant from world A wants to buy 10,000&nbsp; widgets&nbsp; from&nbsp; a<BR>merchant from world B.&nbsp; If the 1st merchant has 1,000,000&nbsp; dinars<BR>and the price is Crimp 50,000 for the widgets&nbsp; the&nbsp; 2nd&nbsp; merchant<BR>might make a deal to 'buy' the dinars from the 1st&nbsp; merchant&nbsp; for<BR>Crimp 50,000 if the 1st merchant agrees to the widget sale.&nbsp; Thus<BR>the 1st merchant gets his widgets and the&nbsp; 2nd&nbsp; merchant&nbsp; gets&nbsp; a<BR>bunch of dinars ... but it&nbsp; was&nbsp; done&nbsp; as&nbsp; 2&nbsp; transactions,&nbsp; each<BR>involving crimps.&nbsp; Outside of world A dinars are not&nbsp; a&nbsp; currency<BR>but merely another asset ... but any asset is tradeable.<BR><BR>Regardless, world governments must pay their&nbsp; Imperial&nbsp; taxes&nbsp; in<BR>crimps.&nbsp; Pure and simple.<BR><BR>To summarise: IMTU if the bar is&nbsp; offworld&nbsp; (eg.&nbsp; within&nbsp; the&nbsp; XT<BR>line) it must accept crimps (or it may barter if&nbsp; it&nbsp; wants&nbsp; to).<BR>But if onworld it may accept crimps at a bad exchange rate [1] or<BR>alternatively it may be barred from&nbsp; trading&nbsp; in&nbsp; crimps&nbsp; by&nbsp; the<BR>local government.<BR><BR>[1] = For example: if the&nbsp; local&nbsp; currency&nbsp; is&nbsp; "marks"&nbsp; and&nbsp; the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; exchange rate varies (from day to&nbsp; day)&nbsp; from&nbsp; 1.3&nbsp; to&nbsp; 1.5<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; marks to the crimp, a startown bar might accept crimps at a<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; fixed value of 1.25 marks to the crimp.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:26:29 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Unsubscribe<BR><BR>Unsubscribe<BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:29:40 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Unsubscribe<BR><BR>Gerry Harris wrote:<BR>&gt; Unsubscribe<BR><BR>Was it something we said?<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:37:24 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>What I find interesting in this thread is the fact that no one has<BR>mentioned the exchange rate rules in TRAVELLER...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:43:47 -0000 <BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Wealth<BR><BR>Hal wrote:<BR>&gt; What I find interesting in this thread is the fact that no one has<BR>&gt; mentioned the exchange rate rules in TRAVELLER...<BR><BR>We were just coming to that.&nbsp; :-P<BR><BR>The exchange rate rules in Traveller give you&nbsp; an&nbsp; exchange&nbsp; rate<BR>between the crimp and a hypothetical currency&nbsp; called&nbsp; the&nbsp; local<BR>'credit'.&nbsp; The actual local currency will have an&nbsp; exchange&nbsp; rate<BR>to the local credit that can be any number ... it has&nbsp; no&nbsp; effect<BR>on the value of the local currency.&nbsp; Thus if Terran&nbsp; dollars&nbsp; are<BR>100 to the&nbsp; local&nbsp; credit&nbsp; simply&nbsp; multiply&nbsp; *all*&nbsp; local&nbsp; credit<BR>amounts by 100 to get Terran dollars.<BR><BR>So the PCs might be please when&nbsp; they&nbsp; convert&nbsp; their&nbsp; Cr(imp)100<BR>pocket money and get Fr100,000 ... until they realise that a beer<BR>costs Fr10,000!<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:50:19 -0500 (EST)<BR>From: "Richard J. Pugh" &lt;rjpugh@patriot.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 hal@buffnet.net wrote:<BR>&gt; What I find interesting in this thread is the fact that no one has<BR>&gt; mentioned the exchange rate rules in TRAVELLER...<BR><BR>Aren't the monetary units for the major political groups largely<BR>standardized?&nbsp; An Imperial Credit is pretty much the same everywhere you<BR>go in the Imperium and environs.<BR><BR>At least, that's how it was in the last Traveller game.&nbsp; At the local<BR>level, things varried a lot.&nbsp; In some border regions, like the Marches and<BR>Reaver's Deep, barter operations were the norm.<BR><BR><BR>Richard Pugh<BR>(who never wrote his newbie essay, and probably never will.&nbsp; &lt;grin&gt;)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:58:18 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Unsubscribe<BR><BR>No.&nbsp; Drill Weekend.&nbsp; Can't come home to 652 email messages ... I'd<BR>never get them all read.&nbsp; I'll be back Monday.<BR><BR>BTW, if I've unsubscribed, why am I still getting email?<BR><BR>- --- "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; Gerry Harris wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Unsubscribe<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Was it something we said?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Regards PLST<BR>&gt; (aka Stalin)<BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1<BR>**********************************************************************************************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3786<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xd03.mx.aol.com (rly-xd03.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.168]) by air-xd01.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:01:09 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xd03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:00:14 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id OAA21705;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:58:53 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:58:20 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id OAA21656<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:58:20 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:58:20 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103091958.OAA21656@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3786<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3787</B></TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Friday, March 9 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3787<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Unsubscribe<BR>re: Intro<BR>RE: Imperial and local currency<BR>re: FNG....Hello folks<BR>Newbie Essays<BR>RE: FNG....Hello folks<BR>Re: FNG....Hello folks<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Time shortage<BR>Re: Newbie Essays<BR>RE: dogs &amp; humans<BR>Re: 3D walkthroughs<BR>RE: Unsubscribe<BR>Re: 15mm Laserburn Troopers and Vehicles miniatures on Ebay<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)<BR>RE: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)<BR>RE: FNG....Hello folks<BR>Hello, and my apologies<BR>RE: Hello, and my apologies<BR>Breeds of Vargr IMTU<BR>RE: FNG....Hello folks<BR>Re: FNG....Hello folks<BR>Re: Hello, and my apologies<BR>Antaine's Newbie essay<BR>Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:03:31 -0800 <BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Unsubscribe<BR><BR>We are the TML. <BR>Resistance is futile. <BR>You have been assimilated into the collective. <BR>We have added your Biological and technological Distinctiveness to our own.<BR><BR>^_~<BR><BR>Bill <BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Gerry Harris [mailto:harrisgwjr@yahoo.com]<BR>Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 11:58 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: RE: Unsubscribe<BR><BR><BR>No.&nbsp; Drill Weekend.&nbsp; Can't come home to 652 email messages ... I'd<BR>never get them all read.&nbsp; I'll be back Monday.<BR><BR>BTW, if I've unsubscribed, why am I still getting email?<BR><BR>- --- "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; Gerry Harris wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Unsubscribe<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Was it something we said?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Regards PLST<BR>&gt; (aka Stalin)<BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR>=====<BR>Gerry Harris<BR>****************************************************************************<BR>******************<BR>ther Traveller - http://www.aethertraveller.com <BR>Soldier's Companion -<BR>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html<BR>****************************************************************************<BR>******************<BR>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" - Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act<BR>3, Scene 1<BR>****************************************************************************<BR>******************<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:29:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Intro<BR><BR>&gt;From: Jeff Hopper &lt;jeff37923@yahoo.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Now that I know what a newbie essay is, I accept your challenge Mr.<BR>&gt;Goffin.&nbsp; <BR><BR>That's the spirit!<BR><BR>&gt; I ask for two things. First about a week to collect some real world data<BR>&gt;on radiation sickness beyond my nuke overview of 12 years ago. <BR><BR>There are no deadlines for this kind of thing.&nbsp; <BR><BR>&gt;Second, the assistance of the TML members in constructive criticism when<BR>&gt;the rules draft is posted here.<BR><BR>That's what we do.&nbsp; I'm looking forward to reading, critiquing, and<BR>eventually using your work.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:29 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: RE: Imperial and local currency<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCECMCNAA.carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>In my opinion, Far Trader is making a serious error if it does not allow <BR>for some form of funds transfer between worlds. There is no way the CrImp <BR>can be accepted as a 'currency standard' unless it is possible.<BR><BR>I would have thought that funds transfer by means of a smart card would <BR>have been perfectly feasible (at least, that's how it works IMTU).<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:31:48 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: FNG....Hello folks<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Mycroft3" &lt;mycroft3@earthlink.net&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Hi everyone, I am a long time traveller fan, mostly a collector these <BR>&gt;days.&nbsp; Just stumbled over the list doing a client's search!<BR><BR>Where are you located?&nbsp; You know, some of us do actually play the game (a<BR>lot of us, I think), and you might get invited.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:39:35 -0500<BR>From: "Anthony Colosetti" &lt;acoloset@kent.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Newbie Essays<BR><BR>&lt;tongue-in-cheek&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; OK, That's it!!!&nbsp; I've been on this list since 10/00 and I never<BR>received my newbie essay assignment.&nbsp; Who do I forward my formal complaint<BR>too?&nbsp; And it's not liked I've been invisible here, I've posted my share of<BR>dumb questions...<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Of course my big question is where do you fill out your qualifications<BR>for essay assignments?&nbsp; As a student of cognitive &amp; social experimental<BR>psychology I doubt my talents cover any gear-head related material.&nbsp; Someone<BR>really needs to keep up on this kind of stuff.&nbsp; Oh well back to lurking...<BR><BR>Anthony Colosetti<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:42:17 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: FNG....Hello folks<BR><BR>Collector, eh?&nbsp; May have something for you soon....<BR><BR>Jesse<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Mycroft3<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 10:13 AM<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: FNG....Hello folks<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hi everyone, I am a long time traveller fan, mostly a collector <BR>&gt; these days.<BR>&gt; Just stumbled over the list doing a client's search!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I'll just shut up now and go back to lurking.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Mycroft<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:46 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: FNG....Hello folks<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;000201c0a8c4$9a2bec00$01c8c8c8@gig1&gt;<BR>Greetings Mycroft.<BR><BR>Welcome aboard! Enjoy...<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:44:32 -0000<BR>From: "Mark S Peace" &lt;mark.s.peace@dunelm.org.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>&gt; OK, how is the situation handled if there is more than one form of<BR>&gt; "legal tender"?&nbsp; (I am hoping for an answer from those in Europe, who<BR>&gt; are in the process of changing to the Euro)&nbsp; Canon states that worlds<BR>&gt; have thier own currency.&nbsp; Can a shop keeper post a sign that he only<BR>&gt; accepts one but not the other?&nbsp; My example, was that in areas far from<BR>&gt; the sources of Imperial Currency that fewer shopkeepers would accept it<BR>&gt; (i.e. that it is harder for them to exchange it for things that they<BR>&gt; need or want).&nbsp; Can a shopkeeper post a notice that prices are in "local<BR>&gt; Cr" and that the exchange rate is 20CrImp to 1 "local Cr" when at the<BR>&gt; starport the exchange rate is 20 "local Cr" to 1 CrImp?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Charles H<BR>&gt;<BR>How about a few examples:<BR><BR>In the UK, the Bank of England prints English bank notes, but in Scotland<BR>several banks print their own notes.&nbsp; Are these Scottish notes accepted in<BR>English shops?&nbsp; Usually, but not always.&nbsp; When they are used they seem to be<BR>taken out of circulation and presumably sent back to Scotland.<BR><BR>Next year (?) Euro notes will be issued in many countries (but not the UK).<BR>Will we have to accept them?&nbsp; No, but I expect some shops will.<BR><BR>I believe that is many countries (particularly if there are problems with<BR>inflation), people would rather have US dollars than their local currency.<BR>I'm sure this would apply with CrImp on lots of worlds.<BR><BR>Mark.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:41:03 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Time shortage<BR><BR>At 10:42 AM 03/09/01 PST, you wrote:<BR>&gt;In mail you write:<BR>&gt;&gt; As the Leonard Erickson Breeding Program waits in hushed anticipation...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Sorry, neither of us is planning on having kids. <BR><BR>Who said you get a choice?&nbsp; We've studied at the National Zoo School of<BR>Panda Lust to perfect our techniques!&nbsp; When the three metric tons of bamboo<BR>show, accept delivery.&nbsp; Trust us, it seems to work wonders!<BR><BR>&gt;If the program is willing to settle for a sperm donation, I'm *sure*<BR>&gt;she'd be glad to co-operate in helping me provide one. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>This is me being a good penguin and *not* going to any of the possible<BR>destinations...<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:56:14 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays<BR><BR>At 03:39 PM 03/09/01 -0500, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&lt;tongue-in-cheek&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; OK, That's it!!!&nbsp; I've been on this list since 10/00 and I never<BR>&gt;received my newbie essay assignment.&nbsp; Who do I forward my formal complaint<BR>&gt;too?&nbsp; And it's not liked I've been invisible here, I've posted my share of<BR>&gt;dumb questions...<BR><BR>We apologize for the oversight.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Of course my big question is where do you fill out your qualifications<BR>&gt;for essay assignments?&nbsp; As a student of cognitive &amp; social experimental<BR>&gt;psychology I doubt my talents cover any gear-head related material.&nbsp; Someone<BR>&gt;really needs to keep up on this kind of stuff.&nbsp; Oh well back to lurking...<BR><BR>Your essay assignment:&nbsp; How do you complain to the Imperial Government?<BR>What channels do the average citizens have to register they<BR>opinion/gripes/schizophrenic delusions with an actual representative of the<BR>Imperium?<BR><BR>As an example, how would citizens go about getting the Imperial Navy to<BR>restrict the flight hours at a naval base's landing field?&nbsp; <BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:57:18 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: dogs &amp; humans<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:11:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>&gt; From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: dogs &amp; humans<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; FYI: a common missuse of the term "symbiosis" is to refer to a<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; mutually beneficial relationship between two organisms.&nbsp; In fact,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; it means a very close relationship between two organisms.&nbsp; Thus,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; a tapeworm and its host are in a symbiotic relationship.&nbsp; When<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; the interaction between two organisms is mutually beneficial, it<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; is called a mutualism.<BR><BR>Mea Culpa.<BR><BR>In my defense I'm not sure mutualism was commonly in use when I was<BR>learning the lingo (late seventies.) The way I learned it if the<BR>relationship<BR>was mutually benificial it was symbiotic if it was unilateraly benificial it<BR>was<BR>refered to as parasitic. Both situations described species in close<BR>biological<BR>contact and wouldn't in a strict sense be applied to the co-operative<BR>relationship between humans and dogs&nbsp; but would pertain to the relationship<BR>between humans and their intestinal bacteria.<BR><BR>So I was speaking imprecisely no matter how you look at it.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:17:09 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: 3D walkthroughs<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Bruce Johnson<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Regards PLST<BR>&gt; (aka Stalin)<BR><BR>Thanks. I forwarded your posts to the T5 board.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:23:53 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Unsubscribe<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:58:18 -0800 (PST)<BR>&gt; From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: RE: Unsubscribe<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; No.&nbsp; Drill Weekend.&nbsp; Can't come home to 652 email messages ... I'd<BR>&gt; never get them all read.&nbsp; I'll be back Monday.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; BTW, if I've unsubscribed, why am I still getting email?<BR><BR>Probably because you sent the request to the list instead of the list agent.<BR>try this instead<BR><BR>&gt; To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR><BR>If you get the non-digest form substitute traveller for traveller-digest<BR>in the message body.<BR><BR>Course you've probably already been inundated with replys to this already.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:19:49 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: 15mm Laserburn Troopers and Vehicles miniatures on Ebay<BR><BR>Glenn Myers &lt;glenn.myers@ansys.com&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; Also, I recently put up a set of Keith Brothers Folio adventures but they<BR>&gt; sold right away. I mention it only because I scanned the covers and the<BR>&gt; artwork is cool.<BR>&gt; http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=568098317<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Maybe I was dumb to accept $30 for it, because it went so fast.<BR><BR>I believe the last time I saw a set of these on Ebay they went for<BR>$86 IIRC, although that may have been for a set of four. I would<BR>suggest that before you sell stuff you rune an EBay search on<BR>completed items to see what similar items sold for last time but<BR>this feature does have a time limit so items that sold longer ago<BR>will not show up.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:34:54 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>Mark S Peace wrote:<BR><BR><BR>&gt; I believe that is many countries (particularly if there are problems with<BR>&gt; inflation), people would rather have US dollars than their local currency.<BR>&gt; I'm sure this would apply with CrImp on lots of worlds.<BR><BR>Well, a number of South American countries are doing exactly that: adopting the US dollar as their official currency. Ecuador, I believe, was the latest.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:40:21 -0500 (EST)<BR>From: "Richard J. Pugh" &lt;rjpugh@patriot.net&gt;<BR>Subject: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)<BR><BR>Hi folks.&nbsp; One of the recent nose art rondells had a computer generated<BR>woman holding a single, large flower.&nbsp; (As opposed to the color-cell<BR>style one where she's superimposed over a pic of the moon and throwing a<BR>bunch of flowers around).&nbsp; I've seen computer generated "people" like<BR>that in many other places; there is an Internet run comic strip that uses<BR>such cgi "people" (www.togetherwefall.com).<BR><BR>Could someone please tell me the program or programs that were used to<BR>generate these "people?"&nbsp; I understand that there is a program out there<BR>that stores a CGI "doll" that can be posed and clothed according to<BR>whatever the user requires.<BR><BR>Please contact me personally, as this doesn't really apply to Traveller<BR>per se.&nbsp; Thanks in advance,<BR><BR><BR>Richard Pugh<BR>(rjpugh@patriot.net)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:59:07 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)<BR><BR>The program is Poser.&nbsp; Last I knew, it was at version 4, which is pretty<BR>damn useful :)&nbsp; There's a very large fan support base out there, and someone<BR>who's truly mastered the program can turn out images where you CAN'T tell it<BR>was done in Poser ;)&nbsp; Note that I include MYSELF in the group that that<BR>can't do this.&nbsp; All my Poser stuff looks like Poser stuff :D<BR><BR>Jesse<BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Richard J. Pugh<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 1:40 PM<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hi folks.&nbsp; One of the recent nose art rondells had a computer generated<BR>&gt; woman holding a single, large flower.&nbsp; (As opposed to the color-cell<BR>&gt; style one where she's superimposed over a pic of the moon and throwing a<BR>&gt; bunch of flowers around).&nbsp; I've seen computer generated "people" like<BR>&gt; that in many other places; there is an Internet run comic strip that uses<BR>&gt; such cgi "people" (www.togetherwefall.com).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Could someone please tell me the program or programs that were used to<BR>&gt; generate these "people?"&nbsp; I understand that there is a program out there<BR>&gt; that stores a CGI "doll" that can be posed and clothed according to<BR>&gt; whatever the user requires.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Please contact me personally, as this doesn't really apply to Traveller<BR>&gt; per se.&nbsp; Thanks in advance,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Richard Pugh<BR>&gt; (rjpugh@patriot.net)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 18:02:53 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: FNG....Hello folks<BR><BR>Mycroft writes:<BR>&gt;Hi everyone, I am a long time traveller fan, mostly a collector these days.<BR>&gt;Just stumbled over the list doing a client's search!<BR>&gt;I'll just shut up now and go back to lurking.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hi Mycroft.&nbsp; Welcome aboard.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:10:49 -0000<BR>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Hello, and my apologies<BR><BR>Gentlemen,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few <BR>weeks.&nbsp; I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil <BR>delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st.&nbsp; I'm currently resting at a <BR>relative's home with a few busted limbs.&nbsp; Walking lessons will begin in a <BR>few weeks.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am sorry.&nbsp; I'm ging <BR>to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll unsubscribe <BR>for the lenght of my recovery.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Have fun and play nice!<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>P.S.&nbsp; Mr. Rancke-Madsen - Thank you so much for responding to my message.&nbsp; <BR>It was very kind of you.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:18:46 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Hello, and my apologies<BR><BR>Damn Larsen!!!&nbsp; Makes my fire of September look like childs-play!&nbsp; Get well<BR>soon my friend.<BR><BR>Very Best,<BR>Jesse<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 3:11 PM<BR>&gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; Subject: Hello, and my apologies<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Gentlemen,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the<BR>&gt; last few<BR>&gt; weeks.&nbsp; I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil<BR>&gt; delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st.&nbsp; I'm currently<BR>&gt; resting at a<BR>&gt; relative's home with a few busted limbs.&nbsp; Walking lessons will begin in a<BR>&gt; few weeks.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am<BR>&gt; sorry.&nbsp; I'm ging<BR>&gt; to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll<BR>&gt; unsubscribe<BR>&gt; for the lenght of my recovery.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Have fun and play nice!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Larsen<BR>&gt; P.S.&nbsp; Mr. Rancke-Madsen - Thank you so much for responding to my<BR>&gt; message.<BR>&gt; It was very kind of you.<BR>&gt; _________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt; Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:31:31 -0600<BR>From: "Shadowcat" &lt;res053z0@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Breeds of Vargr IMTU<BR><BR>the wacky folks at Genassist actually attempted to uplift a chihuha <BR>to sentience, the problem was this experiment was conducted on <BR>the same planet where they were uplifting velociraptors...<BR>with predictable results...burp!<BR><BR>on the other hand experiments with uplifting various terran <BR>domestic cats, and a mutated german shepard named Ralph <BR>proved very sucessful. then again the first all chihuha show was <BR>held in an exhibition hall next to an all Maine Coon show... a fine <BR>time was had by all but the rattmutts, there were no survivors.<BR><BR>I have a dainty little maine coon here who tilts the scales at over 35 <BR>pounds, and is almost 4 foot from nose to tail...<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 18:27:44 -0500<BR>From: "Mycroft3" &lt;mycroft3@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: FNG....Hello folks<BR><BR>I'll just plagerize someone elses!<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane<BR>Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 1:17 PM<BR>To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'<BR>Subject: RE: FNG....Hello folks<BR><BR><BR>Shoundt have said anything Mycroft Now your going to get an Essay Assignment<BR>8P<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Mycroft3 [mailto:mycroft3@earthlink.net]<BR>Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 10:13 AM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: FNG....Hello folks<BR><BR><BR>Hi everyone, I am a long time traveller fan, mostly a collector these days.<BR>Just stumbled over the list doing a client's search!<BR><BR>I'll just shut up now and go back to lurking.<BR><BR>Mycroft<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:26:58 +0100<BR>From: Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: FNG....Hello folks<BR><BR>Mycroft3 wrote:<BR>&gt; I'll just plagerize someone elses!<BR><BR>No you won't. Each newbie gets his/her own assignment. And it seems that no one<BR>has stepped forward to give you yours yet. I'll bite.<BR><BR>You assignment: Write an essay describing in scientific terms why jumpspace maps<BR>onto a two-dimensional surface with discrete steps. You may not use Real World<BR>(ie publishing) arguments.<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:31:00 +0100<BR>From: Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Hello, and my apologies<BR><BR>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few<BR>&gt; weeks.&nbsp; I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil<BR>&gt; delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st.&nbsp; I'm currently resting at a<BR>&gt; relative's home with a few busted limbs.&nbsp; Walking lessons will begin in a<BR>&gt; few weeks.<BR><BR>From what my imagination conjures up, you are lucky to be typing at all. Sorry<BR>to hear about this accident. Hope you get well soon...<BR><BR>How long do you expect to be rehabilitating?<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am sorry.&nbsp; I'm ging<BR>&gt; to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll unsubscribe<BR>&gt; for the lenght of my recovery.<BR><BR>OK. Please notify us if you unsubscribe and when you resubscribe. We do care.<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:35:39 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR><BR>&lt;Introduction&gt;<BR><BR>In this essay I will be looking at the effect of the widely available nano technology on the Traveller Universe. I approached this by doing nano seconds of background research.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hardware will be smaller<BR><BR>&lt;Conclusion&gt;<BR><BR>In conclusion, we can see that the overall effects will be far reaching and would involve a major rule rewrite for areas such as Starship design and construction. <BR><BR>&lt;End&gt;<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:59:30 -0800<BR>From: "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!<BR><BR>Or maybe not. Thanks to Doug Berry for turning me on to Tom Smiths<BR>wonderful filk at http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/103/tom_smith.html.<BR>After listening to "307 Ale" about a hundred times, I was finally inspired<BR>to design a logo for it (ala "Scout Brew"). You can see the result at<BR>http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/307ale (I'm going to re-use that beer<BR>mug clipart to *death*.)<BR><BR>I sent e-mail to Tom this afternoon and offered it to him. He's already<BR>replied and he *loves* it. It's like his "I Want My Music On Napster"<BR>song; I'd love to be rich, but I'll settle for famous. :^)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR><BR>&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3787<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xc01.mx.aol.com (rly-xc01.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.134]) by air-xc04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:09:05 1900<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xc01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:08:39 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id UAA35257;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:08:17 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:07:21 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA35184<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:07:21 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:07:21 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103100107.UAA35184@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3787<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Saturday, March 10 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3788<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!<BR>Re: Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!<BR>Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR>CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)<BR>Breeds of Vargr IMTU<BR>Re: 3d Walkthroughs<BR>Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR>Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR>Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR>Re: Introduction<BR>Re: Introduction<BR>Jump-1 question<BR>Re: Jump-1 question<BR>Re: Jump-1 question<BR>RE: Hello, and my apologies<BR>Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3787<BR>Re: Hello, and my apologies<BR>Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR>Astronomy Question<BR>Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR>Re: Hello, and my apologies<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:17:31 -0800<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!<BR><BR>ROFLMAO!!!!&nbsp; Outstanding!<BR>Jesse<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Mark F. Cook<BR>&gt; Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 5:00 PM<BR>&gt; To: Traveller Mail List<BR>&gt; Subject: Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Or maybe not. Thanks to Doug Berry for turning me on to Tom Smiths<BR>&gt; wonderful filk at http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/103/tom_smith.html.<BR>&gt; After listening to "307 Ale" about a hundred times, I was finally inspired<BR>&gt; to design a logo for it (ala "Scout Brew"). You can see the result at<BR>&gt; http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/307ale (I'm going to re-use that beer<BR>&gt; mug clipart to *death*.)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I sent e-mail to Tom this afternoon and offered it to him. He's already<BR>&gt; replied and he *loves* it. It's like his "I Want My Music On Napster"<BR>&gt; song; I'd love to be rich, but I'll settle for famous. :^)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Mark C.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:22:05 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!<BR><BR>LMAO....think 307 ALE will sponsor my Traveller site when I finaly put one together?<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~<BR><BR>- --- "Mark F. Cook" &lt;markc@peak.org&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;Or maybe not. Thanks to Doug Berry for turning me on to Tom Smiths<BR>&gt;wonderful filk at http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/103/tom_smith.html.<BR>&gt;After listening to "307 Ale" about a hundred times, I was finally inspired<BR>&gt;to design a logo for it (ala "Scout Brew"). You can see the result at<BR>&gt;http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/307ale (I'm going to re-use that beer<BR>&gt;mug clipart to *death*.)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I sent e-mail to Tom this afternoon and offered it to him. He's already<BR>&gt;replied and he *loves* it. It's like his "I Want My Music On Napster"<BR>&gt;song; I'd love to be rich, but I'll settle for famous. :^)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp; printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp; 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp; http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Phone: 541-745-5709&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fax: 541-745-5818<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:33:44 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR><BR>On 03/09/01 at 09:29 AM,&nbsp; mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson) said:<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;I'm sure the same sort of thing happens on planets in TRAVELLER.<BR>&gt;Just as&nbsp; in Europe, some nations have adopted the Euro and others<BR>&gt;have not, so&nbsp; planetary governments will be making choices about<BR>&gt;what constitutes legal&nbsp; tender... and traders decide what they will<BR>&gt;accept. For example, in my&nbsp; globetrotting, I have found few places<BR>&gt;that will not accept a US dollar&nbsp; (except in the Arab world!).<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Imperial Law, I would imagine, requires the acceptance of CrImp as<BR>&gt;legal&nbsp; tender. <BR><BR>Yes, but what about outside the Imperium?&nbsp; Here exchange rates are<BR>going to complicate the PC's lives..up to situations where a world<BR>might simply reject the Crimp could happen.<BR><BR>However, I want to change the subject slightly...<BR><BR>Here's the situation.&nbsp; The PC's are in Reaver's Deep and have come<BR>into possession of a "few million credits", and they are having no<BR>trouble spending them where they are now.&nbsp; Now they wish to travel<BR>to another world to "look at a ship" that might be a good buy.&nbsp; The<BR>question that they are struggling with is how to transport their<BR>new-found "wealth" from point A to point B?<BR><BR>A large strongbox filled with Crimps?&nbsp; <BR><BR>A Letter of Credit from one bank to another?<BR><BR>A bag of diamonds and Rigalian bloodstones?<BR><BR>A cargo hold filled with trade goods?<BR><BR>A portfolio of megacorporate bearer bonds?<BR><BR>I suspect they could use some suggestions on how to proceed from the<BR>collective wisdom of the TML.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:51:57 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)<BR><BR>"Richard J. Pugh" &lt;rjpugh@patriot.net&gt; writes:<BR>&gt;Hi folks. One of the recent nose art rondells had a computer generated<BR>&gt;woman holding a single, large flower. (As opposed to the color-cell<BR>&gt;style one where she's superimposed over a pic of the moon and throwing a<BR>&gt;bunch of flowers around). I've seen computer generated "people" like<BR>&gt;that in many other places; there is an Internet run comic strip that uses<BR>&gt;such cgi "people" (www.togetherwefall.com).<BR>&gt;Could someone please tell me the program or programs that were used to<BR>&gt;generate these "people?" I understand that there is a program out there<BR>&gt;that stores a CGI "doll" that can be posed and clothed according to<BR>&gt;whatever the user requires.<BR><BR>The software used is called Poser.&nbsp; For more details try:<BR><BR>http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/3D/Poser.html<BR><BR>http://www.curiouslabs.com/<BR><BR>http://www.renderosity.com/<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>urbin@bigfoot.com http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/&nbsp; Opinions Mine!<BR>"Treeware" - Manuals and documentation.<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:57:22 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Breeds of Vargr IMTU<BR><BR>Shadowcat" &lt;res053z0@gte.net&gt; puts into the Ether:<BR>[snip]<BR>&gt;on the other hand experiments with uplifting various terran<BR>&gt;domestic cats, and a mutated german shepard named Ralph<BR>&gt;proved very sucessful.<BR><BR>Would this be the famous German Police dog Ralph Von WuWu<BR><BR>&gt;then again the first all chihuha show was<BR>&gt;held in an exhibition hall next to an all Maine Coon show... a fine<BR>&gt;time was had by all but the rattmutts, there were no survivors.<BR><BR>Hmm...smart Raccoons.&nbsp;&nbsp; You can latch onto Bruce Sterling's collection of <BR>shorts called "Globalhead", do so.<BR>There is a great short in there called "Our Neural Chernobyl."<BR><BR><BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:05:49 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: 3d Walkthroughs<BR><BR>On 03/08/01 at 03:33 PM,&nbsp; "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;Over in the T5 forum somebody is asking about 3D walkthroughs. I<BR>&gt;seem to recal somebody talking about some of these a while ago.<BR>&gt;Maybe still on the net somewhere.<BR><BR>&gt;The discusion thread is in the Fleet section of the Citizens of the<BR>&gt;Imperium at Marc's site.<BR><BR>T5 forum?&nbsp; Where's that?<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 22:09:58 -0500<BR>From: "Daniel Phelps" &lt;phelpsd@gate.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR><BR>Was written:<BR><BR>&gt;Here's the situation.&nbsp; The PC's are in Reaver's Deep and have come<BR>&gt;into possession of a "few million credits", and they are having no<BR>&gt;trouble spending them where they are now.&nbsp; Now they wish to travel<BR>&gt;to another world to "look at a ship" that might be a good buy.&nbsp; The<BR>&gt;question that they are struggling with is how to transport their<BR>&gt;new-found "wealth" from point A to point B?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A large strongbox filled with Crimps?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A Letter of Credit from one bank to another?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A bag of diamonds and Rigalian bloodstones?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A cargo hold filled with trade goods?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A portfolio of megacorporate bearer bonds?<BR><BR><BR>Drugs lots and lots of drugs,&nbsp; antiagathics etc., the market is out there...<BR><BR>Dan<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:30:03 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR><BR>- --- eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;However, I want to change the subject slightly...<BR><BR>&gt;The question that they are struggling with is how to transport their<BR>&gt;new-found "wealth" from point A to point B?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A large strongbox filled with Crimps?&nbsp; <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A Letter of Credit from one bank to another?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A bag of diamonds and Rigalian bloodstones?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A cargo hold filled with trade goods?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;A portfolio of megacorporate bearer bonds?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I suspect they could use some suggestions on how to proceed from the<BR>&gt;collective wisdom of the TML.<BR><BR><BR>OK....depending on Law levels here, IMTU Black Market items are always a good idea even if stashed away for "emegencies". So what about Speculative Arms Dealing? Speculative Space Vehicle dealings? Maybe a barter option for the ship in question with a ship the owner would need?<BR><BR>Hope this helps.<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:39:39 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR><BR>On 03/09/01 at 10:09 PM,&nbsp; "Daniel Phelps" &lt;phelpsd@gate.net&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Here's the situation.&nbsp; The PC's are in Reaver's Deep and have come<BR>&gt;&gt;into possession of a "few million credits", and they are having no<BR>&gt;&gt;trouble spending them where they are now.&nbsp; Now they wish to travel<BR>&gt;&gt;to another world to "look at a ship" that might be a good buy.&nbsp; The<BR>&gt;&gt;question that they are struggling with is how to transport their<BR>&gt;&gt;new-found "wealth" from point A to point B?<BR><BR>&gt;Drugs lots and lots of drugs,&nbsp; antiagathics etc., the market is out<BR>&gt;there...<BR><BR>LOL! Well, they'll be passing though a system that produces a "spice" that is addictive and narcotic to Aslan.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:54:34 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: Introduction<BR><BR>On 03/07/01 at 04:07 AM,&nbsp; Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;I am a CT player and once I am back into the groove so to speak,<BR>&gt;I'll be running a game or two. I have to face the huge challenge<BR>&gt;now of finding some people for face to face gaming. Any Aussies in<BR>&gt;NSW feel free to e-mail me off-list and maybe we can arrange<BR>&gt;something.<BR><BR>Welcome!<BR><BR>Drop by my website, listed below, and check the Traveller Roster. I think there are some NSW folks listed.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:05:39 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Introduction<BR><BR>Thanks, I have bookmarked it for a detailed perusal!<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~<BR><BR>- --- eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;On 03/07/01 at 04:07 AM,&nbsp; Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt; said:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;I am a CT player and once I am back into the groove so to speak,<BR>&gt;&gt;I'll be running a game or two. I have to face the huge challenge<BR>&gt;&gt;now of finding some people for face to face gaming. Any Aussies in<BR>&gt;&gt;NSW feel free to e-mail me off-list and maybe we can arrange<BR>&gt;&gt;something.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Welcome!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Drop by my website, listed below, and check the Traveller Roster. I think there are some NSW folks listed.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Eris<BR>&gt;-- <BR>&gt;-----------------------------------------------------------<BR>&gt;eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>&gt;http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>&gt;-----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 22:32:12 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Jump-1 question<BR><BR>Some time back it was mentioned/suggested that Jump-1 drives could, as<BR>'outdated tech', could be discounted from it's base listed cost.&nbsp; This<BR>sounded like a good idea to me, and I thought I had saved the message,<BR>but evidently I hadn't.&nbsp; Can anyone remember what this said hypothetical<BR>discount would be?<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:30:31 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Jump-1 question<BR><BR>At 10:32 PM 3/9/2001 -0500, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Some time back it was mentioned/suggested that Jump-1 drives could, as<BR>&gt;'outdated tech', could be discounted from it's base listed cost.&nbsp; This<BR>&gt;sounded like a good idea to me, and I thought I had saved the message,<BR>&gt;but evidently I hadn't.&nbsp; Can anyone remember what this said hypothetical<BR>&gt;discount would be?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Perry<BR>&gt;"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR>Hello Perry,<BR>&nbsp; The discounted value you are looking to "remember" is 50% as per GURPS<BR>SPACE and in some respects, GURPS VEHICLES...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:37:26 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: Jump-1 question<BR><BR>On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:30:31 -0800 hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR>&gt; At 10:32 PM 3/9/2001 -0500, you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;Some time back it was mentioned/suggested that Jump-1 drives could, <BR>&gt; as<BR>&gt; &gt;'outdated tech', could be discounted from it's base listed cost.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; This<BR>&gt; &gt;sounded like a good idea to me, and I thought I had saved the <BR>&gt; message,<BR>&gt; &gt;but evidently I hadn't.&nbsp; Can anyone remember what this said <BR>&gt; hypothetical<BR>&gt; &gt;discount would be?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Perry<BR>&gt; &gt;"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hello Perry,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The discounted value you are looking to "remember" is 50% as per <BR>&gt; GURPS<BR>&gt; SPACE and in some respects, GURPS VEHICLES...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>Thanks for the info.&nbsp; I'll discount the price for the fat trader the<BR>players will be using in my upsoming CT campaign.<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:51:19 -0500<BR>From: "Chris Seamans" &lt;semo@pil.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Hello, and my apologies<BR><BR>Larsen wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Gentlemen,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few<BR>&gt;weeks.&nbsp; I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil<BR>&gt;delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st.&nbsp; I'm currently resting at<BR>a<BR>&gt;relative's home with a few busted limbs.&nbsp; Walking lessons will begin in a<BR>&gt;few weeks.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am sorry.&nbsp; I'm<BR>ging<BR>&gt;to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll<BR>unsubscribe<BR>&gt;for the lenght of my recovery.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Have fun and play nice!<BR><BR>Hey Larsen!<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Sorry to hear that you were involved in a serious accident. I sincerely<BR>wish you a quick and pleasant recovery, and I hope that you're back on your<BR>feet (figuratively and literally) as soon as possible.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:14:28 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR><BR>On 9 Mar 2001, at 20:33, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Here's the situation.&nbsp; The PC's are in Reaver's Deep and have come<BR>&gt; into possession of a "few million credits", and they are having no<BR>&gt; trouble spending them where they are now.&nbsp; Now they wish to travel<BR>&gt; to another world to "look at a ship" that might be a good buy.&nbsp; The<BR>&gt; question that they are struggling with is how to transport their<BR>&gt; new-found "wealth" from point A to point B?<BR><BR>&gt; A large strongbox filled with Crimps?&nbsp; <BR><BR>&gt; A Letter of Credit from one bank to another?<BR><BR>&gt; A bag of diamonds and Rigalian bloodstones?<BR><BR>&gt; A cargo hold filled with trade goods?<BR><BR>&gt; A portfolio of megacorporate bearer bonds?<BR><BR>&gt; I suspect they could use some suggestions on how to proceed from the<BR>&gt; collective wisdom of the TML.<BR><BR>Any and all of the above would work. I'd imagine the LoC from two <BR>corresponding banks would be the most common (this method is used <BR>nowadays for international trade), followed by the megacorp bearer bonds. <BR>The currency/high value items (gems/stamps/works of art etc) has the <BR>disadvantage of being more vunerable to theft and bulky. The trade goods <BR>also has these disadvantages (even more so in bulk) *and* has the <BR>additional disadvantage of being of variable value at the destination.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 00:11:00 -0500<BR>From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" &lt;caraig@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3787<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:10:49 -0000<BR>&gt;From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Hello, and my apologies<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Gentlemen,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few<BR>&gt;weeks.&nbsp; I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil<BR>&gt;delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st.&nbsp; I'm currently resting at a<BR>&gt;relative's home with a few busted limbs.&nbsp; Walking lessons will begin in a<BR>&gt;few weeks.<BR><BR>Oh, good heavens!&nbsp; Let me add my voice to other's and wish you a very <BR>speedy recovery, Mr. Whipsnade!&nbsp; Our best wishes go out to you!<BR><BR><BR>- ---<BR>==============================================================<BR>Jonathan McDermott&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; "Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -Steve Wozniak<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:45:14 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Hello, and my apologies<BR><BR>On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:10:49 -0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"<BR>&lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Gentlemen,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few <BR>&gt;weeks.&nbsp; I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil <BR>&gt;delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st.&nbsp; I'm currently resting at a <BR>&gt;relative's home with a few busted limbs.&nbsp; Walking lessons will begin in a <BR>&gt;few weeks.<BR>&gt;&lt;SNIP&gt;<BR><BR>Being a resident of the (lately) slightly less frozen north, I'm all<BR>too familiar with the sort of hazards you are alluding to.<BR><BR>Pay attention to those walking lessons; you will be surprised how much<BR>abused muscles can hurt when you try to accommodate your new mobility<BR>restrictions.<BR><BR>Though I've never been rendered inoperative to your degree, I have had<BR>the opportunity to closely inspect the undercarriage of a bus in an<BR>unanticipated moment.<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am sorry.&nbsp; I'm ging <BR>&gt;to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll unsubscribe <BR>&gt;for the lenght of my recovery.<BR><BR>If you are anticipating moving more to a read-only mode, I commend to<BR>you the advantages of the digest version of our mailing list.&nbsp; Only<BR>two to four largish collections of posts per day which can be printed<BR>and browsed from recumbent comfort.<BR><BR>Our best regards to you and hopes for a speedy recovery.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:45:29 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR><BR>On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:35:39 -0800 (PST), Antaine<BR>&lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&lt;Introduction&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;In this essay I will be looking at the effect of the widely available<BR>&gt;nano technology on the Traveller Universe. I approached this by doing<BR>&gt;nano seconds of background research.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Hardware will be smaller<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;Conclusion&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;In conclusion, we can see that the overall effects will be far<BR>&gt;reaching and would involve a major rule rewrite for areas such as<BR>&gt;Starship design and construction. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;End&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Antaine.<BR><BR>Had the list known that you were a poet and gifted with the ability to<BR>illustrate complex issues in so few words, the bar would have<BR>originally been set much higher.<BR><BR>Please restate your above findings in the form of (at your option)<BR>haiku, sonnet or limerick.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:25:56 -0800<BR>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>Subject: Astronomy Question<BR><BR>I'm doing some setting work involving either an open or globular star <BR>cluster.&nbsp; I've a few questions for folks with more astronomy <BR>background that I:<BR><BR>1) I know the approximate figures for globular clusters, but I'm <BR>wondering how many stars are in a large open cluster and how <BR>much closer than average they are? <BR><BR>2) On a related note, I've read that there are on average 100,000 <BR>starts in a globular cluster and they are on average 100-1000 x <BR>closer together. Does that mean the distance between stars is 100-<BR>100 x less or that there are 100 - 1000 x as many star in a cubic <BR>parsec.<BR><BR>3) The sky would look very different inside a star cluster.&nbsp; About <BR>how bright would it be?&nbsp; How many orders of&nbsp; magnitude of <BR>brightness separate a clear moonless night, a clear night with a full <BR>moon, a cloudy day, and a bright sunny day.<BR><BR>Would a clear moonless night in a globular cluster be (say where <BR>stars were 100 x closer) look like a bight sunny day, a clear <BR>moonlit night, or something in between? <BR><BR>Many Thanks-<BR><BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:04:45 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR><BR>- --- JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Had the list known that you were a poet and gifted with the ability to<BR>&gt;illustrate complex issues in so few words, the bar would have<BR>&gt;originally been set much higher.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Please restate your above findings in the form of (at your option)<BR>&gt;haiku, sonnet or limerick.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;-- <BR>&gt;JR Holmes<BR>&gt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>Happy to:<BR><BR>There was a smart man named Miller,<BR>Who designed a universe called Traveller.<BR>We 'travelled' sublime,<BR>but our science has grown,<BR>now nano means it's much smaller.<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:09 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Hello, and my apologies<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;F226eek8IpTfmetJUkw00009a51@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts, especially Mr Whipsnade.<BR><BR>Oh dear :-(<BR><BR>Thought you had been quiet of late. Big (but gentle) hug and every good <BR>wish for a speedy recovery.<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3788<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xd02.mx.aol.com (rly-xd02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.167]) by air-xd01.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:11:20 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xd02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:11:02 1900<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id FAA58467;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:09:57 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:09:42 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id FAA58423<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:09:42 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:09:42 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103101009.FAA58423@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3788<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3789</B></TD></TR>
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<TD>3/10/01 3:17:33 PM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Saturday, March 10 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3789<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR>Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR>Re: Newbie Essays<BR>Re: Hello, and my apologies<BR>Re: 3d Walkthroughs<BR>GURPS Traveller Shipyard question<BR>Re: 3d Walkthroughs<BR>Re: 3d Walkthroughs<BR>Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question<BR>Re: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)<BR>Re: Wealth <BR>Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question<BR>Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR>Re: Jump-1 question<BR>RE: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question<BR>RE: Hello, and my apologies<BR>Vac Suits and air pressure<BR>RE: Imperial and local currency<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:28:51 +1100<BR>From: Rob &lt;rhoughto@one.net.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR><BR>Antaine wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; --- JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Had the list known that you were a poet and gifted with the ability to<BR>&gt; &gt;illustrate complex issues in so few words, the bar would have<BR>&gt; &gt;originally been set much higher.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Please restate your above findings in the form of (at your option)<BR>&gt; &gt;haiku, sonnet or limerick.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;--<BR>&gt; &gt;JR Holmes<BR>&gt; &gt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Happy to:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; There was a smart man named Miller,<BR>&gt; Who designed a universe called Traveller.<BR>&gt; We 'travelled' sublime,<BR>&gt; but our science has grown,<BR>&gt; now nano means it's much smaller.<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;GROAN&gt; &lt;SPLORT&gt;<BR><BR>a hit! a palpable hit!<BR><BR>Other Rob<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:30:06 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR><BR>See what you get when you let a Grunt loose on a mailing list.....LOL<BR><BR>- --- Rob &lt;rhoughto@one.net.au&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;GROAN&gt; &lt;SPLORT&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;a hit! a palpable hit!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Other Rob<BR><BR><BR>See what you get when you let a Grunt loose on a mailing list.....LOL<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:18:04 -0600<BR>From: Charles R Hensley &lt;hensley.cr@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays<BR><BR>Anthony wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&lt;tongue-in-cheek&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; OK, That's it!!!&nbsp; I've been on this list since 10/00 and I never<BR>&gt;received my newbie essay assignment.&nbsp; Who do I forward my formal<BR>complaint<BR>&gt;too?&nbsp; And it's not liked I've been invisible here, I've posted my share<BR>of<BR>&gt;dumb questions...<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Of course my big question is where do you fill out your<BR>qualifications<BR>&gt;for essay assignments?&nbsp; As a student of cognitive &amp; social experimental<BR><BR>&gt;psychology I doubt my talents cover any gear-head related material.<BR>Someone<BR>&gt;really needs to keep up on this kind of stuff.&nbsp; Oh well back to<BR>lurking...<BR><BR>If you fill out that form, Then we are required to set the newby essay<BR>in a field in which you have no qualifications.&nbsp; You are supposed to<BR>give information freely in the fields that you are qualified in.<BR><BR>&lt;/tongue-in-cheek&gt;<BR>Charles<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 04:50:45 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Hello, and my apologies<BR><BR>At 11:10 PM 03/09/01 -0000, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few <BR>&gt;weeks.&nbsp; I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil <BR>&gt;delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st.&nbsp; I'm currently resting at a <BR>&gt;relative's home with a few busted limbs.&nbsp; Walking lessons will begin in a <BR>&gt;few weeks.<BR><BR>Yikes!&nbsp; I'd have a word of to with the Referee over that "adventure."<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am sorry.&nbsp; I'm ging <BR>&gt;to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll unsubscribe <BR>&gt;for the lenght of my recovery.<BR><BR>Health first, Traveller second.&nbsp; Trust me on this.<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR><BR>TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:36:00 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: 3d Walkthroughs<BR><BR>on 9/3/01 10:05 pm, eris@pcola.gulf.net at eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; The discusion thread is in the Fleet section of the Citizens of the<BR>&gt;&gt; Imperium at Marc's site.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; T5 forum?&nbsp; Where's that?<BR><BR>http://www.farfuture.net/cgi-bin/Trav/ixs/Ultimate.cgi<BR><BR>[Random thought: maybe it would be neat to gateway all the open<BR>Traveller-related lists and web fora into a single NNTP server with extended<BR>archiving. I like skimming through the SJG fora using UseNet tools]<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:25:05 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question<BR><BR>I've been having a lot of fun with this program, and have just pulled down<BR>the modules from the Starships playtest page.<BR><BR>Question is, how do I add the new modules?&nbsp; The documentation isn't too<BR>clear, at least to me.<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"<BR>- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:53:17 -0500<BR>From: "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: 3d Walkthroughs<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:05:49 -0600<BR>&gt; From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: 3d Walkthroughs<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR><BR>&gt; T5 forum?&nbsp; Where's that?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Eris<BR><BR><BR>It's the Citizens of the Imperium section of Marc's site.<BR>www.farfuture.net In the left hand frame click on jumpoints and<BR>scroll a bit. It's the first option after jumpoints. It was announced<BR>to the list a few weeks ago to tepid response (do we really need<BR>another discusion group?) There is of course much more being<BR>discussed than T5 but it's got a definite bent in that direction.<BR><BR>David Shayne<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:35:53 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: 3d Walkthroughs<BR><BR>On 03/10/01 at 01:53 PM,&nbsp; "DaveShayne" &lt;daveshayne@email.msn.com&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; T5 forum?&nbsp; Where's that?<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Eris<BR><BR><BR>&gt;It's the Citizens of the Imperium section of Marc's site.<BR><BR>Thanks, I found it.<BR><BR>&gt;www.farfuture.net In the left hand frame click on jumpoints and<BR>&gt;scroll a bit. It's the first option after jumpoints.<BR><BR>&gt;It was<BR>&gt;announced to the list a few weeks ago to tepid response (do we<BR>&gt;really need another discusion group?) There is of course much more<BR>&gt;being discussed than T5 but it's got a definite bent in that<BR>&gt;direction.<BR><BR>So, I see.&nbsp; Well, *do* we really need another discussion group? &lt;g&gt; <BR><BR>The problem I have with web based systems is the messages aren't<BR>delivered to your mailbox, you have to remember go look, and in most<BR>cases, I can't tell what I've read and what I haven't.&nbsp; &lt;shrug&gt;<BR><BR>IAC, from a read-through of the posts in the T5 forum, it looks like<BR>Marc is still working on T5.&nbsp; Technically, it's still about where it<BR>was last time he said much about it here...modified T4 task and<BR>character generation systems, initial setting M200, with "multiple<BR>entry points" planned for later.&nbsp; The "life pursuits" have been<BR>mentioned here...I think...but it looks like Marc is really high on<BR>that concept.&nbsp; One new thing that I noticed, and if I have this<BR>wrong sorry, was that Marc intends to keep CT in publication even<BR>after T5 is released..simple version vs advanced version. <BR><BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:50:53 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question<BR><BR>On 03/10/01 at 09:25 AM,&nbsp; Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;I've been having a lot of fun with this program, and have just<BR>&gt;pulled down the modules from the Starships playtest page.<BR><BR>Same here.&nbsp; I've even run up the same ship using HG2, FFS and GTS (600 dton Liner) and compared the results...pretty close.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>&gt;Question is, how do I add the new modules?&nbsp; The documentation isn't<BR>&gt;too clear, at least to me.<BR><BR>What I did was modify some existing modules, rather than add<BR>completely new ones.<BR><BR>Is Tom Bont on the TML?&nbsp; &lt;g&gt; I'd love to petition him for some<BR>additions to his html and spreadsheet output.&nbsp; I suspect he's been<BR>pretty busy with other things, so I haven't pestered him about it<BR>yet.<BR><BR>Oh, and I *still* think Loren is wrong on the "power slice" issue!<BR>I was a good boy, though, and shut up once it was clear he wasn't<BR>going to let Rob and Tom change that.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>However, I still want to have a repository of "sliceless modules"<BR>for GTS!<BR><BR>I also would really, *really* like to see the various modules<BR>deconstructed into their VE3 components.&nbsp; I can't really gearhead<BR>new ones, or correct modify existing ones unitl I know how they were<BR>constructed.&nbsp; ;-&lt; I know something like that couldn't be in the<BR>book, but it would be nice if there was a link to a file somewhere.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:26:13 -0500<BR>From: "Mike Peters" &lt;Travelleri@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)<BR><BR>Richard,<BR>As an addition to Jesse's information you can pick up a lot of information,<BR>as well as art galleries and freebies,&nbsp; from www.RENDEROSITY.com, there are<BR>also numerous links to other sites. Poser 4 (actualy 4.03) and he new add-on<BR>Poser Pro Pak are produced by Curious Labs at www.curiouslabs.com. The next<BR>to last iteration of the program, Poser 3 is also available on several<BR>Brittish published magazines (however Curious labs doen't recognize the free<BR>editions for upgrades). Check out www.3dworld.com or www.computerarts.co.uk<BR>for the availability of back issues.<BR><BR>Enjoy<BR>Mike<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Jesse Degraff" &lt;jedegraf@cisco.com&gt;<BR>To: &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 4:59 PM<BR>Subject: RE: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)<BR><BR><BR>&gt; The program is Poser.&nbsp; Last I knew, it was at version 4, which is pretty<BR>&gt; damn useful :)&nbsp; There's a very large fan support base out there, and<BR>someone<BR>&gt; who's truly mastered the program can turn out images where you CAN'T tell<BR>it<BR>&gt; was done in Poser ;)&nbsp; Note that I include MYSELF in the group that that<BR>&gt; can't do this.&nbsp; All my Poser stuff looks like Poser stuff :D<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Jesse<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; &gt; [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Richard J. Pugh<BR>&gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 1:40 PM<BR>&gt; &gt; To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt; &gt; Subject: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Hi folks.&nbsp; One of the recent nose art rondells had a computer generated<BR>&gt; &gt; woman holding a single, large flower.&nbsp; (As opposed to the color-cell<BR>&gt; &gt; style one where she's superimposed over a pic of the moon and throwing a<BR>&gt; &gt; bunch of flowers around).&nbsp; I've seen computer generated "people" like<BR>&gt; &gt; that in many other places; there is an Internet run comic strip that<BR>uses<BR>&gt; &gt; such cgi "people" (www.togetherwefall.com).<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Could someone please tell me the program or programs that were used to<BR>&gt; &gt; generate these "people?"&nbsp; I understand that there is a program out there<BR>&gt; &gt; that stores a CGI "doll" that can be posed and clothed according to<BR>&gt; &gt; whatever the user requires.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Please contact me personally, as this doesn't really apply to Traveller<BR>&gt; &gt; per se.&nbsp; Thanks in advance,<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Richard Pugh<BR>&gt; &gt; (rjpugh@patriot.net)<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:34:30 -0900<BR>From: Peter Newman &lt;pnewman@gci.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth <BR><BR>"Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt; wrote<BR><BR>&gt; Peter Newman writes:<BR>&gt; &gt;Let me try to make myself clear. Traveller is a role playing<BR>&gt; &gt;game. The question I am asking is "Suppose that the players go<BR>&gt; &gt;into the only bar on a low population planet within the Imperium<BR>&gt; &gt;and order a drink. The bartender requires payment in advance. For<BR>&gt; &gt;some strange and illogical reason of his own he will not take Imperial<BR>&gt; &gt;credits as payment, despite the fact that he could spend them easily.<BR>&gt; &gt;Can the characters get Imperial law enforcement agents to make<BR>&gt; &gt;the bartender take their credits or are they S.O.L.?"<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;The question I am asking is not if Imperial credits are generally<BR>&gt; &gt;accepted, the question I am asking is "Must Imperial credits,<BR>&gt; &gt;as a matter of law, be accepted?" <BR><BR>&gt; I have to honestly say that I'm surprised at this question. Is there any<BR>&gt; legitimate government is existence that does not require business (and<BR>&gt; citizens for that matter) within its boarders not to accept its currency? <BR><BR>IANAL but my understanding is that in many countries you have<BR>to take their money in payment of a debt but you don't have to<BR>sell to people just because they will pay in cash.<BR><BR>Therefore if I take my car in to be have it's oil changed and<BR>they tell be before they start that it will be $30 and I say yes<BR>they have to take my $30 US cash. If on the other hand they say<BR>that they don't do oil changes for mere money and that they want <BR>an hour of my time tutoring their kids instead that that's OK.<BR><BR>&gt; As<BR>&gt; a matter of fact the refusal of a person to take the currency of his own<BR>&gt; country is usually a sign that the government is near collapse, i.e. the<BR>&gt; persons involved feel that the currency will become worthless.<BR><BR>If people in general behave this way, maybe - If only a few people<BR>behave this way than no.<BR><BR>OTOH it may be not that their currency is bad but merely that another<BR>currency is better. Therefore I would not be surprised if a few<BR>client states had their own currency but defacto used the CrImp<BR>since most places preferred it to their own currency.<BR><BR>&gt; Now I know that there were times in history when people could refuse to take<BR>&gt; script, and insist on gold or silver. I don't think that situation applies<BR>&gt; here, since the Imperium does not use a back currency.<BR><BR>In some campaigns the CrImp might be (partially) backed by Iridium. <BR>Maybe the Iridium Throne is not merely a symbol.<BR><BR>&gt; The best example of how the CrImp might work is the example of the U.S.<BR>&gt; dollar, not in the U.S., but overseas. I've traveled all over the world. In<BR>&gt; a pinch, in almost every place, I could find someone who would take the U.S.<BR>&gt; dollar, Many time the worst shape the local government<BR>&gt; was in or the worst their relationship was with the U.S. government, the<BR>&gt; more anxious they were to accept the dollar.<BR><BR>That's sort of what I'm thinking.<BR><BR>&gt; To get back to your bar: If the bar is&nbsp; in the starport, I'd say he'd have<BR>&gt; to take the CrImps. They person to complain to wouldn't be security. The<BR>&gt; PC's would have to lodge a complaint with the Starport Authority, who would<BR>&gt; probably consider this a lease violation, and out his business would go. If<BR>&gt; it was in town, I'd say he just doesn't want off world business.<BR><BR>Right. The question I'm asking is if the Imperium is OK with that.<BR>Suppose you're an Imperial Marine, paid in Imperial Credits,<BR>and you've just gotten a well deserved leave. If the bar or brothel<BR>won't take them you're going to be pissed off. OTOH maybe you<BR>were just dumb not to have changed some of your pay (Imperial<BR>troops are canonically paid in cash) for local money and should<BR>be S.O.L.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:42:58 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question<BR><BR>On 03/10/01 at 09:25 AM,&nbsp; Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;I've been having a lot of fun with this program, and have just<BR>&gt;pulled down the modules from the Starships playtest page.<BR><BR>Dag-nab-it!&nbsp; <BR><BR>After saying good things about GTS, I decided to play a little with<BR>it.&nbsp; I have the latest version on my system at work (for use *only*<BR>during lunch ;-).&nbsp; Here at home, I have an older version, so I went<BR>to Tom's site to grab 2.29.08.<BR><BR>Problem!&nbsp; I can't get it to download!!!&nbsp; With both IE and NS, I get<BR>64k of the file and the download stops.&nbsp; I've tried with two ISP's<BR>and two browsers, and it dies at the same spot everytime...rats!!!<BR><BR>Is that happening to anyone else, or am I the only unlucky one?<BR><BR>Well, anyway, could someone, send me the latest GTS.zip as a file<BR>attachment?&nbsp; Hum...maybe I shouldn't ask the list that, I might get<BR>a hundred copies.&nbsp; What the hey!&nbsp; I'm going to ask.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>BTW, the older version is working just fine here, but it wouldn't<BR>read the newest Repository.&nbsp; That's when I realized I'd never dl'ed<BR>the newer version of the program.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:26:38 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR><BR>On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:04:45 -0800 (PST), Antaine<BR>&lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;--- JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Had the list known that you were a poet and gifted with the ability to<BR>&gt;&gt;illustrate complex issues in so few words, the bar would have<BR>&gt;&gt;originally been set much higher.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Please restate your above findings in the form of (at your option)<BR>&gt;&gt;haiku, sonnet or limerick.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;-- <BR>&gt;&gt;JR Holmes<BR>&gt;&gt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Happy to:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;There was a smart man named Miller,<BR>&gt;Who designed a universe called Traveller.<BR>&gt;We 'travelled' sublime,<BR>&gt;but our science has grown,<BR>&gt;now nano means it's much smaller.<BR><BR>Though I can't argue with the quality of your conclusions, I find your<BR>scansion and rhyming deficient.&nbsp; In what way do "sublime" and "grown"<BR>rhyme?&nbsp; And it takes a considerable mangling to make the scansion of<BR>the second line work.<BR><BR>Such is the pain of choosing a limerick as your form of expression.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:47:25 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Jump-1 question<BR><BR>&gt;From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>&gt;Subject: Jump-1 question<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Some time back it was mentioned/suggested that Jump-1 drives could, as<BR>&gt;'outdated tech', could be discounted from it's base listed cost.&nbsp; This<BR>&gt;sounded like a good idea to me, and I thought I had saved the message,<BR>&gt;but evidently I hadn't.&nbsp; Can anyone remember what this said hypothetical<BR>&gt;discount would be?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Perry<BR>&gt;"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR>That would probably have been me.<BR><BR>The easiest way to do it (and explain to your players that you may have to retrospectively rule <BR>'temporary market conditions' if they find a too-nice way to rort it) is to rule that the Imperial Credit is a <BR>TL11 currency.<BR><BR>Goods produced at below TL11 get a 20% discount on their 'sticker cost' per TL. A jump-1 drive is <BR>therefore available for roughly 60% of the 'sticker cost', if you pay Imperial Credits (it's a TL9 device, <BR>and is therefore at sticker price 0.8^2) .<BR><BR>Goods produced at above TL11 get a 20% increase in their sticker cost per TL. A TL15 fusion plant <BR>will therefore cost about 190% of it's sticker cost (1.2^4).<BR><BR>Remember that spare parts may cost more than this - there isnt that much demand for TL15 spare <BR>parts in District 268, so you might gouge them for everything you can get.<BR><BR>You will need to adjust the price of jump-1 transport, but remember that a jump-1 freighter will probably <BR>not be all TL9 components - it will probably need a set of TL11 thruster plates, and if it wants to avoid <BR>a fission power plant it will probably want a TL12 small fusion plant.<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:53:36 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question<BR><BR>On 03/10/01 at 09:25 AM,&nbsp; Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt; said:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;I've been having a lot of fun with this program, and have just<BR>&gt;&gt;pulled down the modules from the Starships playtest page.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Dag-nab-it!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;After saying good things about GTS, I decided to play a little with<BR>&gt;it.&nbsp; I have the latest version on my system at work (for use *only*<BR>&gt;during lunch ;-).&nbsp; Here at home, I have an older version, so I went<BR>&gt;to Tom's site to grab 2.29.08.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Problem!&nbsp; I can't get it to download!!!&nbsp; With both IE and NS, I get<BR>&gt;64k of the file and the download stops.&nbsp; I've tried with two ISP's<BR>&gt;and two browsers, and it dies at the same spot everytime...rats!!!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Is that happening to anyone else, or am I the only unlucky one?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Well, anyway, could someone, send me the latest GTS.zip as a file<BR>&gt;attachment?&nbsp; Hum...maybe I shouldn't ask the list that, I might get<BR>&gt;a hundred copies.&nbsp; What the hey!&nbsp; I'm going to ask.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;BTW, the older version is working just fine here, but it wouldn't<BR>&gt;read the newest Repository.&nbsp; That's when I realized I'd never dl'ed<BR>&gt;the newer version of the program.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Eris<BR>&gt;--<BR>&gt;-----------------------------------------------------------<BR>&gt;eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>&gt;http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>&gt;-----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>I passed a question to Tom last week and he hasn't answered yet, which is<BR>not like him. So I suppose he's still busy working on GT:Starships and<BR>hasn't had time to keep up with the list.<BR><BR>I'll take a shot at answering both questions.<BR><BR>Question 1: Load the new module file by Opening Repository. Find the<BR>repository file and open it. Modules already included in the ship will<BR>remain, but a new set of modules will be displayed in the lower module<BR>listing section, but only after you click on a different subsystem. In other<BR>words if your in the Engine:Jump module listing section you must click on<BR>Accommodations section before you'll see the new modules, for some reason<BR>they don't update in the listing you've already selected. You can choose<BR>modules from any number of repositories for the same ship.<BR><BR>Question 2: Tom has previously stated that because he's on @Home.com his<BR>files sometimes don't download properly. I think that it has something to do<BR>with the way @Home.com handles its files. The only fix is to keep trying.<BR>Eventually the file will download in its entirety. Not a very good answer<BR>for those who pay by the minute or have slow access, I'm afraid. It took me<BR>a couple of tries to get the file to download last time I updated, and I'm<BR>on @Home.com myself. (You would think that all the traffic would be along<BR>their own backbone and so have fewer problems.) All I can say is the<BR>programs really worth it.<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:58:46 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Hello, and my apologies<BR><BR>Good luck on you recovery. I highly recommend moving to the digest version.<BR>You can print it out and read it while in bed. Very entertaining if you're<BR>not going to be spending time answering anyway, any you get only two to five<BR>a day instead of 75 emails, which can be tedious to peruse if it's<BR>uncomfortable to sit up.<BR><BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade<BR>Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 6:11 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Hello, and my apologies<BR><BR>Gentlemen,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few<BR>weeks.&nbsp; I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil<BR>delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st.&nbsp; I'm currently resting at a<BR>relative's home with a few busted limbs.&nbsp; Walking lessons will begin in a<BR>few weeks.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am sorry.&nbsp; I'm ging<BR>to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll unsubscribe<BR>for the lenght of my recovery.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Have fun and play nice!<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Larsen<BR>P.S.&nbsp; Mr. Rancke-Madsen - Thank you so much for responding to my message.<BR>It was very kind of you.<BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:56:38 -0500<BR>From: Glenn Grant &lt;neo@total.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Vac Suits and air pressure<BR><BR>A question for Rob O'Connor, Leonard, and any space buffs out there:<BR><BR>I understand that NASA EVA suits, being non-rigid, have to operate at <BR>a low air pressure -- if they pumped them up to a full atmosphere, <BR>they would be inflexible, puffed up like balloons.&nbsp; IIRC they use <BR>something like 15 or 20% of normal air pressure.&nbsp; And this requires <BR>the astronauts to do pure-oxygen pre-breathing for hours prior to <BR>exiting the ship -- to avoid getting the bends, if I'm not mistaken.<BR><BR>But AFAIK, this problem has never been dealt with in any version of <BR>Traveller.&nbsp; Even Greg Porter's rules for Getting In and Out of <BR>Spacesuits (CSC p.16) makes no mention of pre-breathing time, nor <BR>does he mention what pressure his listed EVA suits use.&nbsp; Perhaps the <BR>suits are rigid (or, at high TLs, made of rigidifying smart materials <BR>that flex at the joints), and thus operate at or near a full <BR>atmosphere pressure.&nbsp; But what about the cheaper "space baggy" suits? <BR>These should require pre-breathing time, yes?<BR><BR>Question is, how much pre-breathing is required?&nbsp; I suppose this <BR>would depend on the suit's pressure, which in turn would depend on <BR>its TL and cost.<BR><BR>And what effects would PCs suffer when they have to suit up in a <BR>hurry as the ship rapidly decompresses from a major hit?<BR><BR>Anybody got rules to cover this?<BR><BR>Thanks in advance,<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; +GMG+<BR>- -- <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Glenn Grant&nbsp; &lt;neo@total.net&gt;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "How come if we can send a man to the Moon,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; we can't send a man to the Moon anymore?"<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --Cmdr Rick, _Prisoners of Gravity_<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:11:26 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Imperial and local currency<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCECMCNAA.carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Greetings dear hearts.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;In my opinion, Far Trader is making a serious error if it does not allow<BR>&gt;for some form of funds transfer between worlds. There is no way the CrImp<BR>&gt;can be accepted as a 'currency standard' unless it is possible.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I would have thought that funds transfer by means of a smart card would<BR>&gt;have been perfectly feasible (at least, that's how it works IMTU).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Hugs and kisses,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mexal.<BR><BR>I believe the authors were going for the Nineteenth Century letter of credit<BR>feel. Sure your PC might have 54 MCr at the bank in Glisten, but unless<BR>she's made arrangements through Hortelez et Cie or another bank when she<BR>gets to Muan Gwi all she'll have is the clothes on her back and whatever<BR>credits she's got in her luggage. It won't be just a matter of going up to a<BR>bank and arranging an electronic transfer.<BR><BR>That would have limit use anyway. Even if the banks are in the same sector<BR>it could take months for the transfer information to get from one bank to<BR>the other. Even for worlds 1 jump apart on an XBoat route it's still a<BR>minimum of 2 weeks to find out a check didn't clear. Would you accept a<BR>check from an off-worlder drawn on a bank on another planet, knowing that<BR>the person could be parsecs away by the time his bank told you he was<BR>overdrawn?<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3789<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD>3/11/01 5:37:39 AM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sunday, March 11 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3790<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Wealth<BR>Re: Vac Suits and air pressure<BR>Re: Vac Suits and air pressure<BR>RE: Imperial and local currency<BR>RE: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question<BR>Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR>GURPS Traveller Shipyard question<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR>Re: Crusades of the Future<BR>Re: Cutter Books<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>Re: Newbie Essays<BR>Re: Jump-1 question<BR>Heinlein honored by the USNA!<BR>Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR>Re: Newbie Essays<BR>Re : Vac suits and air pressure<BR>Re: Time shortage<BR>Re: Astronomy Question<BR>Subject: RE: Imperial and local currency<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:29:40 -0500<BR>From: "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Wealth<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; To get back to your bar: If the bar is&nbsp; in the starport, I'd say he'd<BR>have<BR>&gt;&gt; to take the CrImps. They person to complain to wouldn't be security. The<BR>&gt;&gt; PC's would have to lodge a complaint with the Starport Authority, who<BR>would<BR>&gt;&gt; probably consider this a lease violation, and out his business would go.<BR>If<BR>&gt;&gt; it was in town, I'd say he just doesn't want off world business.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Right. The question I'm asking is if the Imperium is OK with that.<BR>&gt;Suppose you're an Imperial Marine, paid in Imperial Credits,<BR>&gt;and you've just gotten a well deserved leave. If the bar or brothel<BR>&gt;won't take them you're going to be pissed off. OTOH maybe you<BR>&gt;were just dumb not to have changed some of your pay (Imperial<BR>&gt;troops are canonically paid in cash) for local money and should<BR>&gt;be S.O.L.<BR><BR>As were many of the American Sailors I've known, who on their first<BR>deployment, assumed that they locals would take dollars, based on the fact<BR>that the brothels in T.J. did when they were on liberty from San Diego Navy<BR>Base. (The only other time they had every been outside the U.S.)<BR><BR>Terry C<BR>All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>Not all who travel are lost<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:53:03 -0800<BR>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>Subject: Re: Vac Suits and air pressure<BR><BR>Glenn Grant &lt;neo@total.net&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; A question for Rob O'Connor, Leonard, and any space buffs out there:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I understand that NASA EVA suits, being non-rigid, have to operate at<BR>&gt; a low air pressure -- if they pumped them up to a full atmosphere,<BR>&gt; they would be inflexible, puffed up like balloons.&nbsp; IIRC they use<BR>&gt; something like 15 or 20% of normal air pressure.&nbsp; And this requires<BR>&gt; the astronauts to do pure-oxygen pre-breathing for hours prior to<BR>&gt; exiting the ship -- to avoid getting the bends, if I'm not mistaken.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; But AFAIK, this problem has never been dealt with in any version of<BR>&gt; Traveller.&nbsp; Even Greg Porter's rules for Getting In and Out of<BR>&gt; Spacesuits (CSC p.16) makes no mention of pre-breathing time, nor does<BR>&gt; he mention what pressure his listed EVA suits use.&nbsp; Perhaps the suits<BR>&gt; are rigid (or, at high TLs, made of rigidifying smart materials that<BR>&gt; flex at the joints), and thus operate at or near a full atmosphere<BR>&gt; pressure.&nbsp; But what about the cheaper "space baggy" suits? These<BR>&gt; should require pre-breathing time, yes?<BR><BR>I always assumed that Traveller suits were either:<BR><BR>1) Smart materials that could maintain full pressure and bend at <BR>the joints.&nbsp; I would assume these would only exist at TL 12+<BR><BR>2) (Cooler and even more likely, even at TL 10+) space suits were <BR>the skin-tight suits I've run across in various SF stories (and that <BR>NASA has considered, but discarded due to a materials <BR>difficulties). With the right materials, skin-tight suits would provide <BR>sufficient pressure on the skin to equal atmospheric pressure. A <BR>skin suit would allow the wearer to move normally, but without any <BR>pressure problems&nbsp; <BR><BR>My idea would be: <BR><BR>1) TL 10-11 such suits must be custom made for a specific <BR>individual.&nbsp; Generic suits will either be some form of rescue ball or <BR>rigid hardsuits.<BR><BR>2) TL 12-13 such suits are made using materials that can shrink to <BR>fit almost anyone of a given species or minor human race.&nbsp; <BR><BR>3) At TL 14+ tailored vac suits (like the ones in MT) are possible. <BR>You can wear these full time, the suit is a loose and comfortable <BR>jumpsuit in normal air pressure and shrinks to a tight-fitting skin-<BR>suit in low pressure situations.<BR><BR>Sound good?<BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:59 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Vac Suits and air pressure<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;a05001900b6d04ac7e711@[154.20.7.44]&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>IMTU most people who need to go EVA rely on a skin-tight tailored garment <BR>which provides the necessary pressure through elasticity rather than air <BR>pressure. Air is supplied from the backpack to a 'goldfish bowl' helmet <BR>for breathing purposes. A baggy, but unpressurised, overgarment is <BR>normally worn to provide 'contact protection' (i.e. to stop the skin-tight <BR>garment being abraded).<BR><BR>Emergency suits are just that. They are designed to be jumped into at a <BR>moment's notice. They are not particularly sophisticated, the objective is <BR>to keep you alive, not enable you to do very much. Basically a <BR>non-tailored loose garment pressurised to about 25% atmospheric, plus <BR>breathing kit akin to a SCUBA set to actually supply what you need to <BR>breathe.<BR><BR>That any help?<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:59 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: RE: Imperial and local currency<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEDJCNAA.carlino@home.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts, especially Terry.<BR><BR>I don't think I've made myself clear as to what I meant by 'smart card'. <BR>What happens IMTU is that an individual can 'load' their financial <BR>resources onto a card, and then 'offload' them again when setting up an <BR>account or making a purchase elsewhere. So if you are planet-hopping, you <BR>ensure that all your worldly wealth is loaded onto the smart card (which I <BR>call a CredCard, by the way), and that gets tucked in your pocket until <BR>you reach the next planet. So it basically acts like a letter of credit in <BR>that you take the evidence of your funds with you, rather than relying on <BR>third parties to inform each other about how much money you have.<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:00:07 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: RE: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question<BR><BR>On 03/10/01 at 05:53 PM,&nbsp; "Terry Carlino" &lt;carlino@home.com&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;Question 2: Tom has previously stated that because he's on<BR>&gt;@Home.com his files sometimes don't download properly. I think that<BR>&gt;it has something to do with the way @Home.com handles its files.<BR><BR>That's a bad advertisement for @home.com now isn't it?&nbsp; The old<BR>version is on SJG's site, and that one dl's from io.com just fine.<BR><BR>&gt;The only fix is to keep trying. Eventually the file will download<BR>&gt;in its entirety. Not a very good answer for those who pay by the<BR>&gt;minute or have slow access, I'm afraid. It took me a couple of<BR>&gt;tries to get the file to download last time I updated, and I'm on<BR>&gt;@Home.com myself. (You would think that all the traffic would be<BR>&gt;along their own backbone and so have fewer problems.) All I can say<BR>&gt;is the programs really worth it.<BR><BR>Well, after 15 tries where it dies at the same point (68,456) I<BR>dispair of ever getting it to dl here at home.&nbsp; :-&lt;<BR><BR>I suppose if no one sends me a copy, I'll have wait until Monday<BR>when I can put my copy at work on a floppy.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:02:22 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR><BR>As I said...the results of letting a Grunt loose on a mailing list ;o) ...I never said I was a poet or gifted in anyway at all.... LOL.....nor do I profess to speak English as you know it so I could never answer the latest questions. Have fun with that concept &lt;weg&gt;<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~<BR><BR><BR>- --- JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Though I can't argue with the quality of your conclusions, I find your<BR>&gt;scansion and rhyming deficient.&nbsp; In what way do "sublime" and "grown"<BR>&gt;rhyme?&nbsp; And it takes a considerable mangling to make the scansion of<BR>&gt;the second line work.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Such is the pain of choosing a limerick as your form of expression.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;-- <BR>&gt;JR Holmes<BR>&gt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:36:23 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question<BR><BR>Just a note to let everyone know that a kind soul too pity on me and sent me a copy of the new version of GTS.&nbsp; Thanks, Gordon!<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:42:45 -0500 (EST)<BR>From: Dalton Spence &lt;dalton.spence@hwcn.org&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>Thanks for the beer, Hans. I'll be over to claim it as soon as I can<BR>afford the air fare. ;)<BR><BR>AFAIK, the obligation to accept Imperial credits only exists on the<BR>planetary level; that is, member planets must provide a means of<BR>exchanging Imperial credits for local currency. How they do this is<BR>up to the local government; they may make it illegal for individual<BR>citizens or businesses to refuse payment in CrImps, or they force<BR>outworlders to deal only with government owned or chartered banks by<BR>making it illegal for others to accept CrImps. Imperial force only<BR>comes into play when trade is threatened on a planetary level, a<BR>situation most *sane* planetary governments would try very hard to<BR>avoid for purely practical reasons (ie. they need CrImps to pay<BR>their Imperial tax obligations or Imperial Marines come knocking).<BR>Unless that threat comes in the form of an uprising against the<BR>Imperium (ie. a popular boycott of CrImps), that force will directed<BR>against the government, not against Imperial citizens. The problem<BR>of exchange rates is mostly self correcting; if they are unfair,<BR>Imperial business goes elsewhere and the supply of CrImps dries up<BR>with the aforementioned consequences.<BR><BR>- --<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; @==================================================@<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. &lt;dalton.spence@hwcn.org&gt; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium&nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; Hillary is the dragon; Internal Security took&nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; refuge in Mission Control. FNORD!&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; @==================================================@<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:45:02 EST<BR>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)<BR><BR>In a message dated 3/4/01 10:59:54 PM !!!First Boot!!!, hovtej@hotmail.com <BR>writes:<BR><BR>&lt;&lt; A suggestion for module for the Modular Cutter: a transportable <BR>microbrewery. &gt;&gt;<BR><BR>which will promptly be installed in EVERY single PC starship and non-starship <BR>in every single Traveller campaign in the (real) world...:-)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:57:49 EST<BR>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Crusades of the Future<BR><BR>In a message dated 3/7/01 10:05:21 AM !!!First Boot!, <BR>bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk writes:<BR><BR>&lt;&lt; I couldn't help noticing recently that while religon is a hot button issue <BR>so<BR>are programming languages. It occured to me that in some societies, <BR>particularly<BR>high tech ones, various programming languages could reflect (or even cause)<BR>philosophical differences within or between societies that might lead to<BR>conflict. Perhaps even violent conflict. &gt;&gt;<BR><BR>while off topic, if you have a copy of GURPS Ogre, read the passage on the <BR>debates between the various religions about whether sentient Ogres (not all <BR>were...) have souls...<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:07:27 EST<BR>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Cutter Books<BR><BR>In a message dated 3/9/01 9:21:54 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>jenry023@student.liu.se writes:<BR><BR>&lt;&lt; Congratulations! Some people may have their doubts about this book, but I <BR>feel<BR>that it will be both useful and inspiring.<BR>&nbsp; &gt;&gt;<BR><BR>If nothing else, it may cause all future PC ships to have 50 ton boat bays <BR>installed...:-). For my money, I don't why more ships don't have them as <BR>auxiliaries. IMHO, it's the most useful non-starship ever published, with the <BR>possible exception of the 95 ton shuttle.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:10:10 EST<BR>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>In a message dated 3/9/01 7:27:30 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com writes:<BR><BR>&lt;&lt; US shop refusing&nbsp; certain&nbsp; inconveinent&nbsp; sized&nbsp; bills&nbsp; (like<BR>refusing a $50.00 for a pack of gum).<BR>&nbsp; &gt;&gt;<BR><BR>I hope not, as this happens in the US all the time...:-)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:12:57 EST<BR>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays<BR><BR>In a message dated 3/9/01 8:58:07 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>gridlore@mindspring.com writes:<BR><BR>&lt;&lt; We apologize for the oversight.<BR>&nbsp; &gt;&gt;<BR><BR>Hey Doug; I don't consider myself a newbie, or an old master like yourself. <BR>What the hell am I (and for that matter the others on the list in the same <BR>boat)? ...:-)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:14:04 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: Jump-1 question<BR><BR>Thanks for the info.&nbsp; I'll probably modify this to where the costs are<BR>modified relative to whatever world/economy they're dealing with at the<BR>moment.&nbsp; Give the ECMs a chnce to 'buy low, sell high' as it were.<BR><BR><BR>On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:47:25 +1100 Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>writes:<BR>&gt; &gt;From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>&gt; &gt;Subject: Jump-1 question<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Some time back it was mentioned/suggested that Jump-1 drives could, <BR>&gt; as<BR>&gt; &gt;'outdated tech', could be discounted from it's base listed cost.&nbsp; <BR>&gt; This<BR>&gt; &gt;sounded like a good idea to me, and I thought I had saved the <BR>&gt; message,<BR>&gt; &gt;but evidently I hadn't.&nbsp; Can anyone remember what this said <BR>&gt; hypothetical<BR>&gt; &gt;discount would be?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Perry<BR>&gt; &gt;"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; That would probably have been me.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The easiest way to do it (and explain to your players that you may <BR>&gt; have to retrospectively rule <BR>&gt; 'temporary market conditions' if they find a too-nice way to rort <BR>&gt; it) is to rule that the Imperial Credit is a <BR>&gt; TL11 currency.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Goods produced at below TL11 get a 20% discount on their 'sticker <BR>&gt; cost' per TL. A jump-1 drive is <BR>&gt; therefore available for roughly 60% of the 'sticker cost', if you <BR>&gt; pay Imperial Credits (it's a TL9 device, <BR>&gt; and is therefore at sticker price 0.8^2) .<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Goods produced at above TL11 get a 20% increase in their sticker <BR>&gt; cost per TL. A TL15 fusion plant <BR>&gt; will therefore cost about 190% of it's sticker cost (1.2^4).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Remember that spare parts may cost more than this - there isnt that <BR>&gt; much demand for TL15 spare <BR>&gt; parts in District 268, so you might gouge them for everything you <BR>&gt; can get.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; You will need to adjust the price of jump-1 transport, but remember <BR>&gt; that a jump-1 freighter will probably <BR>&gt; not be all TL9 components - it will probably need a set of TL11 <BR>&gt; thruster plates, and if it wants to avoid <BR>&gt; a fission power plant it will probably want a TL12 small fusion <BR>&gt; plant.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ian Whitchurch <BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:22:15 EST<BR>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>Subject: Heinlein honored by the USNA!<BR><BR>I found this on the Steve Jackson Games website; VERY COOL.....<BR><BR><A href="http://web.usna.navy.mil/~aeroweb/admin/HEINLEINCHAIR.htm" title=http://web.usna.navy.mil/~aeroweb/admin/HEINLEINCHAIR.htm>The <BR>Robert A</A> <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 04:25:13 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR><BR>It all begins one day, when the Emperor requests that one of his most<BR>trusted agents appears for an audience.&nbsp; He is concerned that certain<BR>reports regarding the Spinward Marches are not entirely truthful.&nbsp; The time<BR>is 7 years before the end of the Fifth Frontier war.&nbsp; The Emperor grants<BR>his agent an Imperial Writ that demands help for the bearer when needed.<BR>As this writ is numbered, the activities of this particular agent can be<BR>tracked when ever the writ is executed.<BR>&nbsp; As fate would have it, the agent is assigned to Naval Intelligence who in<BR>turn, assign him to infiltrate an enemy organization who seems intent on<BR>furthering the power of a Megacorporation at the expense of a noble's<BR>estate.&nbsp; The agent becomes an assassin for hire, and is hired by the<BR>megacorporation to assassinate select individuals.&nbsp; The deaths of these<BR>individuals actually further the corporations plans in other areas, but<BR>also act as a means for testing the loyalty of this relatively unknown<BR>assassin.&nbsp; After passing such tests, the assassin is given a final task to<BR>assassinate two children, a boy and girl child, being gestated in<BR>artificial wombs.&nbsp; These two children are the last hope of a noble couple<BR>who are childless and will ultimately loose their estate to the corporation<BR>on the grounds that there are no heirs to inherit - something to do with<BR>convoluted laws regarding the use of an estate as collateral.<BR>&nbsp; The agent is unwilling to murder unborn children, asks for confirmation<BR>of his orders from Naval intelligence.&nbsp; Rather than lose their only<BR>infiltrator, they order the hit on the children as well.&nbsp; Unable to stomach<BR>the orders, the agent tells his superiors in the Spinward marchers Naval<BR>Intelligence to practice self-inflicted anatomical changes.&nbsp; He does<BR>arrange for what appears to be the death of the children, but instead,<BR>ghosts them away to another planet.&nbsp; Despite the fact they are near the<BR>delvolpment stage for birthing, the agent lets one child be born, and<BR>places the other fetus into a low berth state (for five years as fate would<BR>have it).&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; At present, the organization/Megacorporation has successfully taken over<BR>the estate of the now dead nobles (funny what happens in a war isn't it?).<BR>Initially fearful of non-compliance with their wishes of an assassination,<BR>the megacorporation seeds databases with a trojan program that will flag<BR>the presense of any medical inquiries relating to the genetic code of those<BR>two children.&nbsp; Years later, when nothing surfaces, the megacorporation<BR>forgets about this watchdog program/database waiting to signal the<BR>existance of the children who supposedly died, but left no bodies for<BR>confirmation.<BR><BR>What happened in 25 years?&nbsp; The boy is placed in the care of his parents<BR>who raise him with the added inducement of the Imperial Writ.&nbsp; On two<BR>occasions, the writ is used to withdraw sums needed to bribe the parents<BR>(once for each child).&nbsp; The girl is decanted five years after the boy is<BR>decanted, and the two are brother and sister with foster parents.&nbsp; The<BR>agent acts as a friend of the family and is the God Father of the children.<BR>He in turn, gets a job as a financial intelligence forecast analyst.<BR>After the fifth frontier war comes to a halt, the local economy crashes,<BR>and in a supposedly freak accident, the parents are killed.&nbsp; In reality,<BR>those parents are killed due to the policies of this megacorporation in its<BR>quest for profits.<BR>&nbsp; Unfortunately, the agent loses track of the kids as they end up in the<BR>poorer section of the planet's only city/starport.&nbsp; He himself creates his<BR>own "watcher" virus to inform him when any data on his "kids" show up.<BR><BR>Enter the PC's.&nbsp; They wander in the city's slum section and discover that<BR>"Koala" is right handy with his fists, and has a heart of gold for<BR>strangers about to get their collective buttocks handed to them.&nbsp; Perhaps<BR>the young man just has a penchant for brawling.&nbsp; Whatever the reason, it is<BR>a fateful event as he is asked to join the PC's in an effort to crew an old<BR>Beowulf class ship.&nbsp; He assents readily enough, but asks if his sister can<BR>be hired as a stewardess.&nbsp; She cooks well enough, and has waited on tables<BR>and worked in hotels in her last 5 years of life.&nbsp; The Kindly captain<BR>orders a background check on these two "kids" and a complete physical.<BR>Turns out that as a result of her stint in low berth while in the<BR>artificial womb, she's suffered correctable genetic defects that affect how<BR>her body metabolizes food.&nbsp; As a scrawny and nearly starving waiflike young<BR>woman of 20 standard years - the captain orders her into a medical for<BR>evaluation.<BR><BR>Enter the bad guys: the evaluation sends her code to the local database for<BR>confirmation and evaluation.&nbsp; This in turns notifies the megacorporation<BR>hacks of her existance.&nbsp; 2 weeks later, a local talent assassin attempts to<BR>kill the boy but instead bungles the assignment.&nbsp; The Assassin is unaware<BR>that the Agent is desparately trying to find his kids and save their lives.<BR>When the assassination attempt is bungled, the Agent unearths his writ,<BR>and starts storming the gates of hell so to speak, in an effort to protect<BR>them.&nbsp; In the end, he only manages to get himself shot.&nbsp; But not before he<BR>hands to the PC's - a strongbox with the money originally given to him to<BR>effect an assassination some 25 years prior.&nbsp; He's also got records that<BR>show he was given money to assassinate the noble's children.&nbsp; Finally, he's<BR>given the PC's a metal case to store in their ship's locker - as he had<BR>originally intended to board the freighter as a passenger.&nbsp; Alas, he took a<BR>3mm Gauss rifle round into his chest (damage equivalent to a .50 cal round<BR>by the way).<BR><BR>Ultimately, what this story is about is how some sleeping dogs should be<BR>left to lie...<BR><BR>&lt;how did he mean "Lie" I wonder?&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;can those kids still inherit their father's lands - if it can be proven<BR>that the megacorporation wrongfully assumed ownership of the estate?&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;For whom the bell tolls - what political ramifications will come into play<BR>when it is discovered that the officer in Naval Intelligence ordered the<BR>death of Imperial Nobles - is now the second most senior officer in charge<BR>of a local Naval Intelligence base?&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;How will the players deal with the machinations of a Megacorporation where<BR>the unearthing of such fouls manueverings in the past, can ruin consumer<BR>confidence and effect profitability?&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;after the players argued about whether to rent out all 20 low berth tubes,<BR>they discover that when they really *NEED* a low berth for medical<BR>emergencies, they don't have one.&nbsp; Wanna bet they won't rent out all the<BR>tubes in the future?&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; Well, I'm tired, and need some sleep.&nbsp; If anyone can point out<BR>ramifications I've overlooked, feel free to comment.&nbsp; Oh, before I forget?<BR>The Imperial Agent is considered to be AWOL, and is currently wanted for<BR>questioning.&nbsp; <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:36:02 +0100<BR>From: Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays<BR><BR>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt; Hey Doug; I don't consider myself a newbie, or an old master like yourself.<BR>&gt; What the hell am I (and for that matter the others on the list in the same<BR>&gt; boat)? ...:-)<BR><BR>I believe the correct title is 'Initiate'<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:16:28 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re : Vac suits and air pressure<BR><BR>Glenn Grant wrote :-<BR>&gt; Question is, how much pre-breathing is required?<BR>Current NASA suits are pressurised to 200mmHg (~3.7 psi), with a 95% oxygen<BR>gas mixture.<BR><BR>Yep, the bends or decompression sickness (DCS) is the big concern.<BR><BR>Decompression regime :-<BR>1 hour breathing 100% oxygen at 760mmHg pressure (1 atmosphere)<BR>Depressurisation from 760 -&gt; 500mmHg, hold for 12 hours<BR>Depressurisation from 500 -&gt; 200mmHg (another 40 minutes) -&gt; EVA<BR>This carries a 2% chance of decompression sickness per person-day of EVA.<BR><BR>&gt; And what effects would PCs suffer when they have to suit up in a<BR>&gt; hurry as the ship rapidly decompresses from a major hit?<BR>Hop over to Geoffrey Landis' website :-<BR>http://www.sff.net/people/geoffrey.landis/<BR><BR>He's got NASA data on decompression related problems (ebullism, burns, etc.)<BR>A diving website or www.brooks.af.mil will have more info on DCS.<BR><BR>&gt; Anybody got rules to cover this?<BR>These may still be part of the T5 draft rules :-<BR><BR>&gt; Decompression<BR>&gt; The environment for the character (vac suit, building, vehicle) loses<BR>&gt; pressure.<BR>&gt; Slow Leak. Suffocate-1 per hour.<BR>&gt; Major Leak. Suffocate-1 per ten minutes.<BR>&gt; Explosive Decompression. Suffocate-1 per combat round.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Suffocate is applied to Intelligence (instead of the three physical<BR>&gt; characteristics). When Intelligence is reduced to zero, the character<BR>&gt; is unconscious. When Suffocate equal to twice Intelligence are<BR>&gt; received, the character is in a coma; when Suffocate equal to three<BR>&gt;times Intelligence, the character is dead.<BR><BR>I would rule that in the case of an explosive decompression, a character has<BR>(2 X End) seconds before losing consciousness.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 03:26:26 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Time shortage<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; At 10:42 AM 03/09/01 PST, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;In mail you write:<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; As the Leonard Erickson Breeding Program waits in hushed anticipation...<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Sorry, neither of us is planning on having kids. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Who said you get a choice?&nbsp; We've studied at the National Zoo School of<BR>&gt; Panda Lust to perfect our techniques!&nbsp; When the three metric tons of bamboo<BR>&gt; show, accept delivery.&nbsp; Trust us, it seems to work wonders!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;If the program is willing to settle for a sperm donation, I'm *sure*<BR>&gt;&gt;she'd be glad to co-operate in helping me provide one. &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This is me being a good penguin and *not* going to any of the possible<BR>&gt; destinations...<BR><BR>And I suspect that you can come up with a lot of destinations. If not,<BR>I *know* you know people who can clue you in after you show them my<BR>post. :-)<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 03:33:27 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Astronomy Question<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; I'm doing some setting work involving either an open or globular star <BR>&gt; cluster.&nbsp; I've a few questions for folks with more astronomy <BR>&gt; background that I:<BR><BR>You might want to double check what *kind* of stars such clusters have.<BR>I vaguely recal them having population II stars, which are very<BR>unlikely to have usable planets.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:36:08 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ian=20Cooper?= &lt;ian_hammond_cooper@yahoo.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Subject: RE: Imperial and local currency<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR>&lt;&lt;In my opinion, Far Trader is making a serious error<BR>if it does not allow for some form of funds transfer<BR>between worlds. There is no way the CrImp can be<BR>accepted as a 'currency standard' unless it is<BR>possible.<BR>I would have thought that funds transfer by means of a<BR>smart card would have been perfectly feasible (at<BR>least, that's how it works IMTU).&gt;&gt;<BR><BR>Terry Carlino:<BR><I Nineteenth<BR the for going were authors believe>Century letter of credit feel. Sure your PC might have<BR>54 MCr at the bank in Glisten, but unless she's made<BR>arrangements through Hortelez et Cie or another bank<BR>when shegets to Muan Gwi all she'll have is the<BR>clothes on her back and whatever credits she's got in<BR>her luggage. It won't be just a matter of going up <BR>to a bank and arranging an electronic transfer.&gt;<BR><BR>If I want to purchase somehting from a US suplier,<BR>from the UK I have three ways of overcoming the <BR><BR>currency problems:<BR>1: Credit Card<BR>2: Banker's Draft<BR>3: Third-party payment holding organistion such as<BR>pay-pal.<BR><BR>IMO all 3 would have equivalents in the Imperium.<BR>1: Credit Card - a credit card that can be used<BR>off-planet is probably going to be rarer, depending on<BR><BR>how common you percieve interstellar travel as being,<BR>and underwritten by the megacorporations (I don't <BR>care if you can pay Hortalez et Cie, or TAS what you<BR>owe, I care that they will pay me). A <BR>megacorporation has this kind of clout, sector-wide<BR>and subsector wide companies may be able to <BR>underwrite these cards within their own area of<BR>influence as well. Charges might be high,<BR>administration costs are not cheap, and would probably<BR>passed on to the consumer (extra 10% say for payment<BR>by interstellar credit card). Possibly the model would<BR>be less a credit card than a charge card (like Amex) <BR>or debit card (effectively a card that you must allows<BR>ou to sepnd money you already have, not that will <BR>lend you money). Security will be tight to avoid<BR>fraud, and would be both elctronic/biometric on the<BR>card itself, and probably involve the megacorporation<BR>security services to stamp out fraud.<BR>2: Having just sent one of these the issue is: The<BR>purchaser's bank has an agreement with a bank at the <BR>destination world. The purchaser gives his bank the<BR>funds, which are cleared, and they then issue him a <BR>cheque. The purchaser sends the cheque (or electronic<BR>transfer via xboat or whatever). The seller&nbsp; cashes <BR>the cheque. The local bank pays immediately (they have<BR>an agreement with the purchasers bank, who will <BR>always pay them. becuase the purchasers funds were<BR>cleared before the cheque was issued).<BR>3: A megacorporation could act as a clearing house.<BR>Both parties register, say with Hortaez et Cie. The <BR>purchaser pays the money to Hortalez et cie on his<BR>world. When the funds clear H&amp;C contact the seller. <BR>The seller ships the goods. On receipt of the goods<BR>the purchaser notifies H&amp;C to release the funds.<BR><BR>Hope this helps,<BR><BR><BR><BR>Ian<BR><BR><BR>____________________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk<BR>or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3790<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sunday, March 11 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3791<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: [TML] Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR>Re: Newbie Essays<BR>Re: Astronomy Question<BR>Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyards question<BR>FFW<BR>Neither Newbie Nor TML GOO....<BR>Question about the Imperial military<BR>Re: Jump-1 question<BR>Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR>Re: Vac Suits and air pressure<BR>Re: Vac Suits and air pressure<BR>Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR>Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR>Between Worlds fanzines on Ebay<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:01:39 -0500<BR>From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" &lt;caraig@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [TML] Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 04:25:13 -0500<BR>&gt;From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>&gt;Subject: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR><BR>I rather like this adventure.&nbsp; It's got some great background, plays on <BR>quite a few emotions, and sounds like it could turn into quite the run. =) <BR>Great job!! I'll read it a bit more, and see what more to say. =)<BR><BR>Cheers<BR><BR>- ---<BR>==============================================================<BR>Jonathan McDermott&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; "Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -Steve Wozniak<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 09:28:12 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays<BR><BR>At 12:12 AM 03/11/01 EST, you wrote:<BR>&gt;In a message dated 3/9/01 8:58:07 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>&gt;gridlore@mindspring.com writes:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;&lt; We apologize for the oversight.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Hey Doug; I don't consider myself a newbie, or an old master like yourself. <BR>&gt;What the hell am I (and for that matter the others on the list in the same <BR>&gt;boat)? ...:-)<BR><BR>The vast majority of Traveller players/fans.<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR><BR>TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:37:28 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Astronomy Question<BR><BR>on 11/3/01 6:33 am, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; In mail you write:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; I'm doing some setting work involving either an open or globular star<BR>&gt;&gt; cluster.&nbsp; I've a few questions for folks with more astronomy<BR>&gt;&gt; background that I:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; You might want to double check what *kind* of stars such clusters have.<BR>&gt; I vaguely recal them having population II stars, which are very<BR>&gt; unlikely to have usable planets.<BR><BR>For which this database may be useful:<BR><BR>http://obswww.unige.ch/webda/<BR>(A Site Devoted to Stellar Open Clusters)<BR><BR>And this more general page:<BR><BR>http://www.seds.org/messier/open.html<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:46:01 -0500<BR>From: Thom Jones-Low &lt;tjoneslo@together.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyards question<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:50:53 -0600<BR>&gt; From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On 03/10/01 at 09:25 AM,&nbsp; Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt; said:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;Question is, how do I add the new modules?&nbsp; The documentation isn't<BR>&gt; &gt;too clear, at least to me.<BR>&gt; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Open GTS and open a ship. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; In the bottom left pane open tree to the proper place where you want to<BR>put the new module. E.g. Adding an alien accommodations you open<BR>Accommodations and select Crew Quarters. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Click on the right bottom pane. (any entry will do)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Select Repository, New Module menu items<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; This will display and Edit dialog where you can enter all the<BR>information about the module. Press OK when you have finished entering<BR>the information. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Select Repository, Save As... menu items to save your changes. <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; You can, if you are a Pyramid subscriber, download the latest version<BR>of the GT repository with all the modules that will be in the Starships<BR>book from the Starships playtest area. (Subscribe Today!)<BR><BR>&gt; What I did was modify some existing modules, rather than add<BR>&gt; completely new ones.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Is Tom Bont on the TML?&nbsp; &lt;g&gt; I'd love to petition him for some<BR>&gt; additions to his html and spreadsheet output.&nbsp; I suspect he's been<BR>&gt; pretty busy with other things, so I haven't pestered him about it<BR>&gt; yet.<BR>&gt; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; I far as I know he's not. I have periodic contact with him. He is<BR>active on the Pyramid and JTAS boards. He is very busy with Starships at<BR>the moment. <BR><BR>&gt; Oh, and I *still* think Loren is wrong on the "power slice" issue!<BR>&gt; I was a good boy, though, and shut up once it was clear he wasn't<BR>&gt; going to let Rob and Tom change that.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; However, I still want to have a repository of "sliceless modules"<BR>&gt; for GTS!<BR>&gt; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; So do I. I know he build most of the sliceless modules as an<BR>experiment. You can get a taste of them by downloading the GS3 (GURPS<BR>Space 3) Repository. <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; I know this is of highest demand, so he may publish it after Starships<BR>is out, either as a JTAS article or simply on the web site.<BR><BR>&gt; I also would really, *really* like to see the various modules<BR>&gt; deconstructed into their VE3 components.&nbsp; I can't really gearhead<BR>&gt; new ones, or correct modify existing ones unitl I know how they were<BR>&gt; constructed.&nbsp; ;-&lt; I know something like that couldn't be in the<BR>&gt; book, but it would be nice if there was a link to a file somewhere.<BR>&gt; <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; I have copies of all of them. They are posted in the Starships playtest<BR>area as one of the downloads. Check the Verified Design Notes.zip file.<BR>(Subscribe Today!). <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Perhaps when the book is published they will be put in a public area. <BR>- -- <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thomas Jones-Low<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; tjoneslo@together.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:49:11 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: FFW<BR><BR>Does anyone remember the site with the information for expanding Fifth<BR>Frontier War to the entire Spinward Marches?<BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:25:07 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: AuricTech Shipyards &lt;aurictech@esweeet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Neither Newbie Nor TML GOO....<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:36:02 +0100<BR>From: Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays<BR><BR>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt; Hey Doug; I don't consider myself a newbie, or an old master like yourself.<BR>&gt; What the hell am I (and for that matter the others on the list in the <BR>same<BR>&gt; boat)? ...:-)<BR><BR>I believe the correct title is 'Initiate'<BR><BR>As in "Ellery Queen Intitiate of the Mysteries."<BR><BR>BTW, I finally arrived in Bosnia, following a trainup in Germany.&nbsp; I look forward to having regular (though brief) e-mail access again.<BR><BR>ObTrav:&nbsp; Well, IIRC, the Imperial Army spends a lot of time on internal security missions, which may well be similar to peacekeeping....<BR><BR>==<BR>AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR><BR>http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>Free eSweeet Mail - http://www.esweeet.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:54:44 EST<BR>From: Spm073@aol.com<BR>Subject: Question about the Imperial military<BR><BR>- --part1_18.9feb490.27dd4014_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR>I AM a newbie and have recently gotten involved in Traveller through the <BR>GURPs incarnation, so bear that in mind if i manage to offend anyone.<BR><BR>Ive been trying to find a setting that i oculd run a major military campaign <BR>in with both starships, dropships and ground forces.&nbsp; A friend referred me to <BR>Traveller and here i am three months later still trying to work some things <BR>out.&nbsp; <BR><BR>The questions:<BR><BR>1)&nbsp; What are the common types/classes of ships in the Imperium?&nbsp; to help me <BR>name some vessels.&nbsp; <BR><BR>2)&nbsp; What military branches are there in the Imperium and where can i find <BR>more information?&nbsp; Im planning on having Players play members of a starship <BR>that contains both dropships/fighters and houses some marines or a landing <BR>party.&nbsp; In essense theywill be playing out game sessions at any of the 3 <BR>levels.&nbsp; However, if this seems ridiculous from a Traveller standpoint let me <BR>know.&nbsp; (the origianl inspiration was the Starship Troopers movie and its <BR>framing of some scenes around Mobile Infantry and others around the Fleet)<BR><BR>3)&nbsp; What types of conflicts (other than creating one) would be a good setting <BR>for a large military mobilization by the imperium?<BR><BR>4)&nbsp; This may negate the previous questions, but am i overstepping the use of <BR>the Imperium (one of my players is a fan of traveller from several years <BR>back) and should i use one of the minor races as my core group)?&nbsp; Do they <BR>become involved in enough fullscale mobilizations to warrant creating this <BR>campaign?&nbsp; If not, any ideas or options to keep the same flavor of my game?<BR><BR>Patrick<BR><BR>- --part1_18.9feb490.27dd4014_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>I AM a newbie and have recently gotten involved in Traveller through the <BR><BR>GURPs incarnation, so bear that in mind if i manage to offend anyone.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Ive been trying to find a setting that i oculd run a major military campaign <BR><BR>in with both starships, dropships and ground forces. &amp;nbsp;A friend referred me to <BR><BR>Traveller and here i am three months later still trying to work some things <BR><BR>out. &amp;nbsp;<BR><BR><BR><BR>The questions:<BR><BR><BR><BR>1) &amp;nbsp;What are the common types/classes of ships in the Imperium? &amp;nbsp;to help me <BR><BR>name some vessels. &amp;nbsp;<BR><BR><BR><BR>2) &amp;nbsp;What military branches are there in the Imperium and where can i find <BR><BR>more information? &amp;nbsp;Im planning on having Players play members of a starship <BR><BR>that contains both dropships/fighters and houses some marines or a landing <BR><BR>party. &amp;nbsp;In essense theywill be playing out game sessions at any of the 3 <BR><BR>levels. &amp;nbsp;However, if this seems ridiculous from a Traveller standpoint let me <BR><BR>know. &amp;nbsp;(the origianl inspiration was the Starship Troopers movie and its <BR><BR>framing of some scenes around Mobile Infantry and others around the Fleet)<BR><BR><BR><BR>3) &amp;nbsp;What types of conflicts (other than creating one) would be a good setting <BR><BR>for a large military mobilization by the imperium?<BR><BR><BR><BR>4) &amp;nbsp;This may negate the previous questions, but am i overstepping the use of <BR><BR>the Imperium (one of my players is a fan of traveller from several years <BR><BR>back) and should i use one of the minor races as my core group)? &amp;nbsp;Do they <BR><BR>become involved in enough fullscale mobilizations to warrant creating this <BR><BR>campaign? &amp;nbsp;If not, any ideas or options to keep the same flavor of my game?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Patrick</FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_18.9feb490.27dd4014_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:54:00 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Jump-1 question<BR><BR>&gt;From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: Jump-1 question<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Thanks for the info.&nbsp; I'll probably modify this to where the costs are<BR>&gt;modified relative to whatever world/economy they're dealing with at the<BR>&gt;moment.&nbsp; Give the ECMs a chnce to 'buy low, sell high' as it were.<BR><BR>*nods* But remember 'If the money is this easy, why isnt everybody doing it ?' - if you see an easy profit <BR>opportunitiy, there should be 3-5 other Free Traders/ECMs trying to cut the same deal. Who all have <BR>to be got rid of, one way or another ...<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:59:01 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR><BR>Hello Patrick,<BR>&nbsp; I don't know if these suggestions will be helpful or not, but what the<BR>heck right? &lt;grin&gt;...<BR><BR>&nbsp; One book out there, that you may be able to get your hands upon is the<BR>Fighting Ships of the Imperium.&nbsp; If I recall correctly, all of the classic<BR>books of TRAVELLER were reprinted recently.&nbsp; In the FIGHTING SHIPS OF THE<BR>IMPERIUM, are ship classes built using HIGH GUARD.&nbsp; With the exception of<BR>fusion guns, most of the weapons of those ships can be recreated using<BR>GURPS TRAVELLER.&nbsp; While I personally disagree with the design options<BR>chosen to simulate HIGH GUARD meson weapons in TRAVELLER, it is possible to<BR>create GURPS analogs of most of the classic ship classes for use in your<BR>campaign.<BR><BR>&nbsp; With regards to running a military campaign, there is nothing that<BR>prohibits you from having a 6th Frontier war.&nbsp; After all, the fifth<BR>frontier war was initiated without much warning against the Imperium.&nbsp; In<BR>real life history, Germany was defeated in 1918, and reinitiated World War<BR>II in 1939.&nbsp; Oddly enough, this 20 year period of peace is close to the<BR>time that has passed in the GURPS TRAVELLER universe &lt;grin&gt;.<BR><BR>What would be considered the flashpoint of the 6th Frontier war?&nbsp; How about<BR>the Sword worlds?&nbsp; Better yet?&nbsp; Give the Zho's a new Grand Admiral who<BR>orchestrates a far more subtle war plan against the Imperium?&nbsp; First phase<BR>would be to rattle the sabers and get the Imperium edgy and nervous.&nbsp; The<BR>Imperium stations a few fleets within 2 jump cycles from the border.&nbsp; Why?<BR>They don't want to give the Zho's the ability to strike against an unwarned<BR>fleet, so they place a few picket ships near the border with instructions<BR>to maintain constant communications via scout couriers.&nbsp; Meanwhile, the<BR>Sword Worlders have been getting infusions of technology to upgrade from<BR>their current Tech 9 technological base to a Tech 10 or Tech 11.&nbsp; The<BR>Imperium views this upgrade with alarm and arms the buffer states with a<BR>corresponding technological upgrade.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Then, on the night you launch your wartime campaign, you can have Imperial<BR>advisors helping the Buffer states deal with the Sword worlds, who are<BR>attempting to reintegrate their original empire.&nbsp; The Imperium can't commit<BR>resources from the Zho border to the sword world border without weakening<BR>that defensive stance.&nbsp; The players can either play the Sword Worlders, the<BR>Buffer States, or the Imperial advisors.<BR><BR>Considerations for your campaign: one problem involved here is whether you<BR>use the concept that a jump requires a target gravity well to emerge from<BR>jumpspace.&nbsp; If this is the case, then ships may not jump to the outer orbit<BR>region of a star and move in.&nbsp; It gives known potential emergence sites<BR>that the "defender" may use for their ambush sites.<BR>&nbsp; If you use the concept that you do not need a gravity well to emerge in -<BR>deep space jump destinations are possible, permitting an enemy fleet to<BR>stage to and from in their war against an enemy.&nbsp; Design Tanker class ships<BR>that permit a fleet to refuel in deep space and hit unexpected targets.<BR>This has the effect of forcing a defender to defend a broad area of<BR>operations instead of massing his fleets.&nbsp; It gives the attacker a critical<BR>edge in establishing momentum in his offense.<BR><BR>&nbsp; Remember too, that missiles in GURPS TRAVELLER are FAR more effective in<BR>warfare than they were in HIGH GUARD (I Can't speak for MT or TNE because I<BR>never ran any such campaigns with large scale warfare).<BR><BR>&nbsp; If you want to have fun with your players - consider creating variant<BR>class fighter platforms.&nbsp; As mentioned before, fighters generally tend to<BR>be ineffectual in major fleet engagements due to the limited fire power<BR>abilities.&nbsp; They can take on escort ships and such, but not battle fleets.<BR>There is nothing in the rules that state a fighter has to be laser armed.<BR>Put a weapons officer aboard a fighter platform, and make it a two man<BR>crew, and you've got an effective punch when 40 fighters launch 40 missiles<BR>at the same time.&nbsp; But the best part of creating a fighter wing for your<BR>campaign is the simple fact that your players can be involved in all sorts<BR>of activity against the enemy.&nbsp; They can be involved in freighter<BR>interdiction, they can be involved in shore leaves, they can be involved in<BR>fighting activity where individual bravery still counts (as opposed to<BR>being a gunner aboard a Battleship where you are one of many on a single<BR>hull).&nbsp; Fighters who are originally stations aboard a carrier can be<BR>reassigned to a planetary base, or even reassigned to a jeep carrier class<BR>ship where only a few fighters are required.&nbsp; Such a ship could be used as<BR>a commerce raider type unit.&nbsp; One trick that can be used to extend the<BR>flight duration of fighter class ships?<BR><BR>SLOW and FAST drug use.&nbsp; And since one list member pointed out problems<BR>with hypothermia - use specially designed flight suits that maintain pilot<BR>temperatures to combat such problems &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; Pilots can now engage in long<BR>distance strikes merely by using metabolism altering drugs.&nbsp; One "trick" I<BR>used for my own campaigns in GURPS TRAVELLER was to use a daisy chain<BR>communications link.&nbsp; A forward fighter would spot a larger enemy ship well<BR>outside of the mother ship's sensor range.&nbsp; Fighter would link to another<BR>fighter, who in turn would link with the next fighter, who in turn linked<BR>with the mother ship.&nbsp; Mother ship would engage in a high speed run towards<BR>the target before launching her own missiles.&nbsp; The missiles then coast<BR>towards the enemy until they are within range of the target.&nbsp; The lead<BR>fighter then takes control of the missiles and guides them onto target.<BR><BR>&nbsp; I should mention that a lot of my "tactics" evolve around the fact that I<BR>use vector movement rather than the standard GURPS movement rules.&nbsp; GURPS<BR>TRAVELLER *REQUIRES* that the last movement point of a missile *ends* in<BR>the hex of its target in order to secure a potential hit.&nbsp; In my traveller<BR>universe, the only thing required to secure a potential hit was for the<BR>VECTOR of the missile to pass through the target point.&nbsp; Anyone who is<BR>interested in my "homebrew" adaptation of MAYDAY rules in my GURPS<BR>TRAVELLER campaigns, may email me privately for the full details.&nbsp; The<BR>"rough" details are as follows:<BR><BR>Each ship has its intended plot or course.&nbsp; Ships move before missiles<BR>move.&nbsp; In a vector based plotting system, you have the current location<BR>marker (or apex of the triangle of engagement zone), the drift marker - the<BR>location the missile will end up in if it doesn't change its course at all,<BR>and the changed course maximum boundry.&nbsp; These three points determine the<BR>area in the form of a triangle, that a missile can hit.&nbsp; If the target ship<BR>is entirely within the triangle, and the missile can hit it on the turn of<BR>determination, the missile is said to have secured a potential hit and<BR>requires the song and dance ritual of missile operator versus target<BR>pilot's manuevers in order to secure a hit or miss result.&nbsp; If the ship is<BR>outside of the missile's triangle of opportunity, the GM attempts to<BR>determine of the ship left the "triangle" before it could be hit, or was<BR>potentially able to be hit before it left.&nbsp; In other words, if the ship is<BR>nearer to the apex of the triangle when it's movement takes it out of the<BR>triangle, it is more likely to have been hit.&nbsp; The middle area of the<BR>triangle means it was more likely to have been hit before it left the<BR>triangle, and nearer to the back, it means that the ship was likely able to<BR>scuttle out to safety by the narrowest of margins.<BR><BR>&nbsp; For what it is worth - do NOT attempt to use my methods unless you have<BR>four counters to represent a ship.&nbsp; You need the last position of the ship<BR>prior to this turn, the current position of the ship, the pending position<BR>of the ship if it doesn't make any course corrections, and the final<BR>position of the ship (or missile for that matter!) with regards to the<BR>potential course change.&nbsp; The pilot of the vehicle then places his<BR>controlled vehicle's final location by picking a spot within the "triangle"<BR>to denote this is where he intended to go.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:47:36 -0500<BR>From: Glenn Grant &lt;neo@total.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Vac Suits and air pressure<BR><BR>John Snead sez,<BR><BR>&gt;I always assumed that Traveller suits were either:<BR>&gt;1) Smart materials that could maintain full pressure and bend at<BR>&gt;the joints.&nbsp; I would assume these would only exist at TL 12+<BR>&gt;2) (Cooler and even more likely, even at TL 10+) space suits were<BR>&gt;the skin-tight suits I've run across in various SF stories<BR>[snip]<BR>&gt;Sound good?<BR><BR>Sounds good to me, John.&nbsp; My concern would be wrinkles: if the suit <BR>isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause the <BR>wearer's skin to pucker.&nbsp; Space-hickeys, basically.&nbsp; So the suit <BR>would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the joints.<BR><BR>Might be do-able, though.<BR><BR><BR>Megan sez,<BR><BR>&gt;IMTU most people who need to go EVA rely on a skin-tight tailored garment<BR>&gt;which provides the necessary pressure through elasticity rather than air<BR>&gt;pressure. Air is supplied from the backpack to a 'goldfish bowl' helmet<BR>&gt;for breathing purposes. A baggy, but unpressurised, overgarment is<BR>&gt;normally worn to provide 'contact protection' (i.e. to stop the skin-tight<BR>&gt;garment being abraded).<BR><BR>The overgarment would also provide some modesty, as the skin-tight <BR>layer alone wouldn't leave much to the imagination!<BR><BR>I'm also wondering how comfortable a skintight would be; it would <BR>need to be awfully, um, intimate with parts of the body not usually <BR>in such snug contact with one's clothes. (Think "wedgie"...)<BR><BR>&gt;Emergency suits are just that. They are designed to be jumped into at a<BR>&gt;moment's notice. They are not particularly sophisticated, the objective is<BR>&gt;to keep you alive, not enable you to do very much. Basically a<BR>&gt;non-tailored loose garment pressurised to about 25% atmospheric, plus<BR>&gt;breathing kit akin to a SCUBA set to actually supply what you need to<BR>&gt;breathe.<BR><BR>But rapidly going from full pressure to 25% would give you the bends, <BR>hence my original post.<BR><BR>So emergency suits absolutely must be pumped to 100% -- which means <BR>they have to be rigid with mechanical joints (at TL-11-), or made of <BR>smart materials that can flex at the joints (At TL 12+), as John <BR>stated above.<BR><BR><BR>Rob O'Connor sez,<BR><BR>&gt;Yep, the bends or decompression sickness (DCS) is the big concern.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Decompression regime :-<BR>&gt;1 hour breathing 100% oxygen at 760mmHg pressure (1 atmosphere)<BR>&gt;Depressurisation from 760 -&gt; 500mmHg, hold for 12 hours<BR>&gt;Depressurisation from 500 -&gt; 200mmHg (another 40 minutes) -&gt; EVA<BR>&gt;This carries a 2% chance of decompression sickness per person-day of EVA.<BR><BR>Wow! Takes a lot longer than I thought.<BR><BR>&gt;I would rule that in the case of an explosive decompression, a character has<BR>&gt;(2 X End) seconds before losing consciousness.<BR><BR>Good stuff, Rob, as usual.<BR><BR>Many thanks, all!<BR><BR>&nbsp; + GMG +<BR>- -- <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Glenn Grant&nbsp; &lt;neo@total.net&gt;<BR>_Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Edited by David Hartwell &amp; Glenn Grant<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ++Now in trade paperback from Tor Books++<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:47:36 -0500<BR>From: Glenn Grant &lt;neo@total.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Vac Suits and air pressure<BR><BR>John Snead sez,<BR><BR>&gt;I always assumed that Traveller suits were either:<BR>&gt;1) Smart materials that could maintain full pressure and bend at<BR>&gt;the joints.&nbsp; I would assume these would only exist at TL 12+<BR>&gt;2) (Cooler and even more likely, even at TL 10+) space suits were<BR>&gt;the skin-tight suits I've run across in various SF stories<BR>[snip]<BR>&gt;Sound good?<BR><BR>Sounds good to me, John.&nbsp; My concern would be wrinkles: if the suit <BR>isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause the <BR>wearer's skin to pucker.&nbsp; Space-hickeys, basically.&nbsp; So the suit <BR>would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the joints.<BR><BR>Might be do-able, though.<BR><BR><BR>Megan sez,<BR><BR>&gt;IMTU most people who need to go EVA rely on a skin-tight tailored garment<BR>&gt;which provides the necessary pressure through elasticity rather than air<BR>&gt;pressure. Air is supplied from the backpack to a 'goldfish bowl' helmet<BR>&gt;for breathing purposes. A baggy, but unpressurised, overgarment is<BR>&gt;normally worn to provide 'contact protection' (i.e. to stop the skin-tight<BR>&gt;garment being abraded).<BR><BR>The overgarment would also provide some modesty, as the skin-tight <BR>layer alone wouldn't leave much to the imagination!<BR><BR>I'm also wondering how comfortable a skintight would be; it would <BR>need to be awfully, um, intimate with parts of the body not usually <BR>in such snug contact with one's clothes. (Think "wedgie"...)<BR><BR>&gt;Emergency suits are just that. They are designed to be jumped into at a<BR>&gt;moment's notice. They are not particularly sophisticated, the objective is<BR>&gt;to keep you alive, not enable you to do very much. Basically a<BR>&gt;non-tailored loose garment pressurised to about 25% atmospheric, plus<BR>&gt;breathing kit akin to a SCUBA set to actually supply what you need to<BR>&gt;breathe.<BR><BR>But rapidly going from full pressure to 25% would give you the bends, <BR>hence my original post.<BR><BR>So emergency suits absolutely must be pumped to 100% -- which means <BR>they have to be rigid with mechanical joints (at TL-11-), or made of <BR>smart materials that can flex at the joints (At TL 12+), as John <BR>stated above.<BR><BR><BR>Rob O'Connor sez,<BR><BR>&gt;Yep, the bends or decompression sickness (DCS) is the big concern.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Decompression regime :-<BR>&gt;1 hour breathing 100% oxygen at 760mmHg pressure (1 atmosphere)<BR>&gt;Depressurisation from 760 -&gt; 500mmHg, hold for 12 hours<BR>&gt;Depressurisation from 500 -&gt; 200mmHg (another 40 minutes) -&gt; EVA<BR>&gt;This carries a 2% chance of decompression sickness per person-day of EVA.<BR><BR>Wow! Takes a lot longer than I thought.<BR><BR>&gt;I would rule that in the case of an explosive decompression, a character has<BR>&gt;(2 X End) seconds before losing consciousness.<BR><BR>Good stuff, Rob, as usual.<BR><BR>Many thanks, all!<BR><BR>&nbsp; + GMG +<BR>- -- <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Glenn Grant&nbsp; &lt;neo@total.net&gt;<BR>_Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Edited by David Hartwell &amp; Glenn Grant<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ++Now in trade paperback from Tor Books++<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:09:27 -0500<BR>From: Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR><BR>On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:09:42 -0500 (EST), JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:35:39 -0800 (PST), Antaine<BR>&gt;&lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&lt;Introduction&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;In this essay I will be looking at the effect of the widely available<BR>&gt;&gt;nano technology on the Traveller Universe. I approached this by doing<BR>&gt;&gt;nano seconds of background research.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Hardware will be smaller<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&lt;Conclusion&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;In conclusion, we can see that the overall effects will be far<BR>&gt;&gt;reaching and would involve a major rule rewrite for areas such as<BR>&gt;&gt;Starship design and construction. <BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&lt;End&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Antaine.<BR><BR>&gt;Had the list known that you were a poet and gifted with the ability to<BR>&gt;illustrate complex issues in so few words, the bar would have<BR>&gt;originally been set much higher.<BR><BR>&gt;Please restate your above findings in the form of (at your option)<BR>&gt;haiku, sonnet or limerick.<BR><BR>Nanotech makes change<BR>Hardware will become smaller<BR>Need to rewrite rules<BR><BR>- --<BR>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:12:45 +0100<BR>From: Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR><BR>Spm073@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt; I AM a newbie and have recently gotten involved in Traveller through the<BR>&gt; GURPs incarnation, so bear that in mind if i manage to offend anyone.<BR><BR>Hey, the last week or two has had more newbies than ever dropping in around<BR>here. Great! Welcome!<BR><BR>And have no fear about the offense part. We won't hurt you. We'll maybe hurt<BR>your keyboard, but not you.<BR><BR>&gt; Ive been trying to find a setting that i oculd run a major military campaign<BR>&gt; in with both starships, dropships and ground forces.&nbsp; A friend referred me to<BR>&gt; Traveller and here i am three months later still trying to work some things<BR>&gt; out.<BR><BR>Great choice! Make sure you thank your friend :-)<BR><BR>&gt; 1)&nbsp; What are the common types/classes of ships in the Imperium?&nbsp; to help me<BR>&gt; name some vessels.<BR><BR>A ship class is often named after the first ship in that class. Later ships get<BR>names along the same theme.<BR><BR>Example: There is a mercenary cruiser ship class called Broadsword. The first<BR>such ship was named Broadsword. When other, (more or less) identical ships were<BR>made, they were said to be of the Broadsword class. They got names such as<BR>Longsword, Claymore, ...<BR><BR>So, if you have a unique ship it can have any name. If you make another ship<BR>like the first one, you'd probably give it a similiar name.<BR><BR>There are, off course, plenty of ships that do not follow these naming<BR>guidelines. However, military and megacorporation ships often do. Mercenary<BR>ships, free traders, and other such rabble give their ships just about any names<BR>these days...&nbsp; ;-)<BR><BR>&gt; 2)&nbsp; What military branches are there in the Imperium and where can i find<BR>&gt; more information?&nbsp; Im planning on having Players play members of a starship<BR>&gt; that contains both dropships/fighters and houses some marines or a landing<BR>&gt; party.<BR><BR>Branches:<BR><BR>1) Navy. In addition to actual fleets, the navy contains support vessels, bases,<BR>marines, and other necessary things for navy operations. This seems to be<BR>exactly what you want.&nbsp; ;-)<BR><BR>2) Army. The army is ground troops, "wet" navy (boats, submarines...),<BR>planetbound airforce, etc. The non-elite (non-marines) dropship troops are part<BR>of the army as well.<BR><BR>3) Scouts. The scouts are not exactly military, but it is for instance possible<BR>to be drafted for scout service. The scout service explores the known and<BR>unknown universe.<BR><BR>4) Merchants. Also a somewhat non-military branch, but still a possible draft<BR>destination.<BR><BR>Information about the scouts can be found in GT: First In (GT is an abbrevation<BR>for GURPS Traveller). The army appears in GT: Ground Forces. The best source for<BR>information about merchants (independent or not) is GT: Far Trader.<BR><BR>Sadly, GT: Imperial Navy doesn't exist yet, but it will at some point. If you<BR>need specific information, feel free to ask your questions here&nbsp; ;-)<BR><BR>&gt; 3)&nbsp; What types of conflicts (other than creating one) would be a good setting<BR>&gt; for a large military mobilization by the imperium?<BR><BR>Either conflict with the Zhodani (in the Spinward Marches) or with the Solomani<BR>(in the Solomani Sphere). Information about these areas can be found in GT:<BR>Beyond the Claw (Spinward Marches) or GT: Rim of Fire (Solomani Sphere).<BR><BR>&gt; 4)&nbsp; This may negate the previous questions, but am i overstepping the use of<BR>&gt; the Imperium (one of my players is a fan of traveller from several years<BR>&gt; back) and should i use one of the minor races as my core group)?&nbsp; Do they<BR>&gt; become involved in enough fullscale mobilizations to warrant creating this<BR>&gt; campaign?&nbsp; If not, any ideas or options to keep the same flavor of my game?<BR><BR>The Imperium certainly gets stuck in where the action is. Besides, playing<BR>humans is a lot easier to do well. The universe is complex enough *outside* the<BR>head of the character you are playing.<BR><BR>For these reasons, the Imperium is kind of the default setting. Most of the<BR>people on this list use it. It's large, complex, intriguing... but wait, there<BR>is more. If you order today, you will receive not one, not two, but three<BR>penguins, free of additional charge.<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:44:27 -0700<BR>From: "J. Paul Sanders" &lt;jps64@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Between Worlds fanzines on Ebay<BR><BR>For those interested, I am offering up a complete set (1-6) of a mid-80's <BR>Traveller fanzine for sale on Ebay. The zine was called "Between Worlds" <BR>and was published by Magnus Abel. They're are being sold individually and <BR>the url with further information is: <BR>http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&amp;userid=timmon&amp;include=0&amp;since=-1&amp;sort=2&amp;rows=25<BR><BR>Cordially,<BR>Paul Sanders<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3791<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-za04.mx.aol.com (rly-za04.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.100]) by air-za03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:42:29 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:41:59 1900<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA46497;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:41:37 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:41:15 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA46445<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:41:15 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:41:15 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103112341.SAA46445@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, March 12 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3792<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR>Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR>Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR>New Website<BR>Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR>Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR>Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR>Re: New Website<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791<BR>Re: New Website<BR>Re: Neither Newbie Nor TML GOO....<BR>Re: Neither Newbie Nor TML GOO....<BR>Re: New Website<BR>Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791<BR>Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR>RE: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR>RE: Newbie Essays<BR>Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR>Oh, Belgium!<BR>Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:01:46 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR><BR>On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:35:39 -0800 (PST) Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net (Antaine)<BR>wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&lt;Introduction&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Hardware will be smaller<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;Conclusion&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR><BR>Ack! ROFL SPLORT and a dead keyboard.<BR><BR>Your gonna fit in just fine!<BR><BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:23:54 EST<BR>From: Spm073@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR><BR>- --part1_97.125b645a.27dd711a_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR>OK, <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I guess now im getting closer to what i need to fill in the blanks.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>Now, to a more practical matter:<BR><BR>What do the ships of the Imperium look like?&nbsp; Im trying to find a ship that <BR>can perform both as a carrier for a few fighters (for its own protection) and <BR>dropships for marines which are housed on board.&nbsp; Anyone have an suggestions. <BR>Im planning on this being my players homeship but possibly having another <BR>ship there as a sister ship (either a larger one with enough resources to <BR>bail the players out of trouble or a smaller one to force the players to bail <BR>it out of trouble)<BR><BR>Also, anyone have any pics or descriptions of the typical Imperial NAval <BR>officers' uniform/equpiment?&nbsp; Same thing for Marine?<BR><BR>Im also looking or plot/campaign threads to run these people through, so Id <BR>appreciate any feedback.<BR><BR>I lost the earlier reply about possible threat races for a major conflict.&nbsp; <BR>Can whoever sent it please resend?&gt;<BR><BR>Patrick<BR><BR>- --part1_97.125b645a.27dd711a_boundary<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR><BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>OK, <BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;I guess now im getting closer to what i need to fill in the blanks. &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;<BR><BR>Now, to a more practical matter:<BR><BR><BR><BR>What do the ships of the Imperium look like? &amp;nbsp;Im trying to find a ship that <BR><BR>can perform both as a carrier for a few fighters (for its own protection) and <BR><BR>dropships for marines which are housed on board. &amp;nbsp;Anyone have an suggestions. <BR><BR>&amp;nbsp;Im planning on this being my players homeship but possibly having another <BR><BR>ship there as a sister ship (either a larger one with enough resources to <BR><BR>bail the players out of trouble or a smaller one to force the players to bail <BR><BR>it out of trouble)<BR><BR><BR><BR>Also, anyone have any pics or descriptions of the typical Imperial NAval <BR><BR>officers' uniform/equpiment? &amp;nbsp;Same thing for Marine?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Im also looking or plot/campaign threads to run these people through, so Id <BR><BR>appreciate any feedback.<BR><BR><BR><BR>I lost the earlier reply about possible threat races for a major conflict. &amp;nbsp;<BR><BR>Can whoever sent it please resend?&amp;gt;<BR><BR><BR><BR>Patrick</FONT><BR><BR>- --part1_97.125b645a.27dd711a_boundary--<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:33:24 -0600<BR>From: JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR><BR>On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:09:27 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin<BR>&lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:09:42 -0500 (EST), JR Holmes &lt;jrholmes@wi.rr.com&gt;<BR>&gt;wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:35:39 -0800 (PST), Antaine<BR>&gt;&gt;&lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;Introduction&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;In this essay I will be looking at the effect of the widely available<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;nano technology on the Traveller Universe. I approached this by doing<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;nano seconds of background research.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;Hardware will be smaller<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;Conclusion&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;In conclusion, we can see that the overall effects will be far<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;reaching and would involve a major rule rewrite for areas such as<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;Starship design and construction. <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;End&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;Antaine.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Had the list known that you were a poet and gifted with the ability to<BR>&gt;&gt;illustrate complex issues in so few words, the bar would have<BR>&gt;&gt;originally been set much higher.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Please restate your above findings in the form of (at your option)<BR>&gt;&gt;haiku, sonnet or limerick.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Nanotech makes change<BR>&gt;Hardware will become smaller<BR>&gt;Need to rewrite rules<BR><BR>Though I had found that Antaine's offered limerick was inadequate due<BR>to errors in scansion and rhyme, this is marvelously succinct and true<BR>to form.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>JR Holmes<BR>jrholmes@wi.rr.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:44:47 -0600<BR>From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: New Website<BR><BR>I have just finished putting up my Library Data website.&nbsp; Right now it <BR>concentrates on the Reavers' Deep, but I will be expanding it to include <BR>more later.<BR><BR>Jimmy Simpson<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>"The avalanche has already started.<BR>It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:47:23 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR><BR>At 03:54 PM 03/11/01 EST, you wrote: <BR><BR><BR>&lt;excerpt&gt;&lt;fontfamily&gt;&lt;param&gt;arial&lt;/param&gt;&lt;smaller&gt;Ive been trying to find<BR>a setting that i oculd run a major military campaign <BR><BR>in with both starships, dropships and ground forces.&nbsp; A friend referred<BR>me to <BR><BR>Traveller and here i am three months later still trying to work some<BR>things <BR><BR>out.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR><BR>The questions: <BR><BR><BR>1)&nbsp; What are the common types/classes of ships in the Imperium?&nbsp; to help<BR>me <BR><BR>name some vessels.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>&lt;/smaller&gt;&lt;/fontfamily&gt;&lt;/excerpt&gt;<BR><BR>Battleships seem to be named after people.<BR><BR><BR>Cruisers have all sorts of names, planets, people, events.<BR><BR><BR>There is no real pattern beyond that.<BR><BR><BR>&lt;excerpt&gt;&lt;fontfamily&gt;&lt;param&gt;arial&lt;/param&gt;&lt;smaller&gt;2)&nbsp; What military<BR>branches are there in the Imperium and where can i find <BR><BR>more information?&nbsp; Im planning on having Players play members of a<BR>starship <BR><BR>that contains both dropships/fighters and houses some marines or a<BR>landing <BR><BR>party.&nbsp; In essense theywill be playing out game sessions at any of the 3 <BR><BR>levels.&nbsp; However, if this seems ridiculous from a Traveller standpoint<BR>let me <BR><BR>know.&nbsp; (the origianl inspiration was the Starship Troopers movie and its <BR><BR>framing of some scenes around Mobile Infantry and others around the<BR>Fleet) <BR><BR>&lt;/smaller&gt;&lt;/fontfamily&gt;&lt;/excerpt&gt;<BR><BR>You know it's hard to recommend Ground Forces here without looking like a<BR>self-serving SOB, but I covered a lot of that in the book.&nbsp; I has<BR>everything you need to know about the Marines and the Army.<BR><BR><BR>&lt;excerpt&gt;&lt;fontfamily&gt;&lt;param&gt;arial&lt;/param&gt;&lt;smaller&gt;3)&nbsp; What types of<BR>conflicts (other than creating one) would be a good setting <BR><BR>for a large military mobilization by the imperium? <BR><BR>&lt;/smaller&gt;&lt;/fontfamily&gt;&lt;/excerpt&gt;<BR><BR>Ibid<BR><BR><BR>&lt;excerpt&gt;&lt;fontfamily&gt;&lt;param&gt;arial&lt;/param&gt;&lt;smaller&gt;4)&nbsp; This may negate the<BR>previous questions, but am i overstepping the use of <BR><BR>the Imperium (one of my players is a fan of traveller from several years <BR><BR>back) and should i use one of the minor races as my core group)?&nbsp; Do they <BR><BR>become involved in enough fullscale mobilizations to warrant creating<BR>this <BR><BR>campaign?&nbsp; If not, any ideas or options to keep the same flavor of my<BR>game? <BR><BR>&lt;/smaller&gt;&lt;/fontfamily&gt;&lt;/excerpt&gt;<BR><BR>The Imperial standard for nonhumans in the military is simple:&nbsp; The<BR>members of the race have to be able to understand and obey orders, use<BR>the same equipment as everybody else, understand the concept and scope of<BR>the Imperium, and not have unusual environmental concerns.<BR><BR><BR>Beyond that, a team centered around a minor race sounds interesting.&nbsp; I<BR>suggest you look into the history of African American soldiers to see how<BR>such minority troops might face unusual problems.<BR><BR><BR>Feel free to ask me anything, but be advised that most of the answers<BR>will be "buy the book."&nbsp; :)<BR><BR>- -- <BR><BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp;&nbsp; Templar Agent at Large.<BR><BR>gridlore@mindspring.com<BR><BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR><BR><BR>Author of GT: Ground Forces&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:50:49 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR><BR>At 07:23 PM 03/11/01 EST, you wrote: <BR><BR><BR><BR>&lt;excerpt&gt;&lt;fontfamily&gt;&lt;param&gt;arial&lt;/param&gt;&lt;smaller&gt;What do the ships of<BR>the Imperium look like?&nbsp; Im trying to find a ship that <BR><BR>can perform both as a carrier for a few fighters (for its own protection)<BR>and <BR><BR>dropships for marines which are housed on board.&nbsp; Anyone have an<BR>suggestions. <BR><BR>Im planning on this being my players homeship but possibly having<BR>another <BR><BR>ship there as a sister ship (either a larger one with enough resources to <BR><BR>bail the players out of trouble or a smaller one to force the players to<BR>bail <BR><BR>it out of trouble) <BR><BR>&lt;/smaller&gt;&lt;/fontfamily&gt;&lt;/excerpt&gt;<BR><BR>Imperial ships tend to be of the "shiny wedge" school of design.&nbsp; Look at<BR>Jesse DeGraff's page for ideas.<BR><BR><BR>&lt;excerpt&gt;&lt;fontfamily&gt;&lt;param&gt;arial&lt;/param&gt;&lt;smaller&gt;Also, anyone have any<BR>pics or descriptions of the typical Imperial NAval <BR><BR>officers' uniform/equpiment?&nbsp; Same thing for Marine? <BR><BR>&lt;/smaller&gt;&lt;/fontfamily&gt;&lt;/excerpt&gt;<BR><BR>In Ground Forces (I warned you)<BR><BR>&lt;fontfamily&gt;&lt;param&gt;arial&lt;/param&gt;<BR><BR>&lt;/fontfamily&gt;<BR><BR>- -- <BR><BR><BR>Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR><BR>&nbsp; http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR><BR>Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.<BR><BR>- -Chicago reader, 10/15/82<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:00:08 -0600<BR>From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR><BR>At 09:39 PM 3/9/2001 -0600, Eris wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;there...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;LOL! Well, they'll be passing though a system that produces a "spice" that <BR>&gt;is addictive and narcotic to Aslan.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Eris<BR><BR>So what and where is this world with the spice?&nbsp; If it's in the Deep, I <BR>would like to add it to my new website?<BR><BR>Jimmy Simpson<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>"The avalanche has already started.<BR>It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:54:15 -0600<BR>From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Website<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:44:47 -0600<BR>&gt;To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt;From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: New Website<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I have just finished putting up my Library Data website.&nbsp; Right now it <BR>&gt;concentrates on the Reavers' Deep, but I will be expanding it to include <BR>&gt;more later.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Jimmy Simpson<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>Well, don't you just love it when you hit the send button too early?<BR><BR>Here is the website:<BR>http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm<BR><BR>Jimmy Simpson<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>"The avalanche has already started.<BR>It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:15:30 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791<BR><BR>&gt; Sounds good to me, John.&nbsp; My concern would be wrinkles: if the suit <BR>&gt;&nbsp; isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause the <BR>&gt;&nbsp; wearer's skin to pucker.&nbsp; Space-hickeys, basically.&nbsp; So the suit <BR>&gt;&nbsp; would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the joints.<BR><BR>It has always occured to me that the genitalia would be especially sensitive <BR>to this sort of problem. Special arrangements are no doubt made.<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:41:26 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: New Website<BR><BR>- --- Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Well, don't you just love it when you hit the send button too early?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Here is the website:<BR>&gt;http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm<BR>&gt;<BR><BR><BR>Looks like a load of good work.<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:41:20 EST<BR>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Neither Newbie Nor TML GOO....<BR><BR>In a message dated 3/11/01 8:26:04 PM !!!First Boot!!!, aurictech@esweeet.com <BR>writes:<BR><BR>&lt;&lt; BTW, I finally arrived in Bosnia, following a trainup in Germany.&nbsp; I look <BR>forward to having regular (though brief) e-mail access again. &gt;&gt;<BR><BR>You watch your a** boyo...be careful; real life medicine's only TL8<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:47:03 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Neither Newbie Nor TML GOO....<BR><BR>- --- AuricTech Shipyards &lt;aurictech@esweeet.com&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;BTW, I finally arrived in Bosnia, following a trainup in Germany.&nbsp; I look forward to having regular (though brief) e-mail access again.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;ObTrav:&nbsp; Well, IIRC, the Imperial Army spends a lot of time on internal security missions, which may well be similar to peacekeeping....<BR><BR>Ugh....PK! Keep your spirits up, your wits about you and I wish you a uneventful tour.<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Thankful I'm retired from all that! Geek code to follow~<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:25:12 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: New Website<BR><BR>On 03/11/01 at 08:54 PM,&nbsp; Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;I have just finished putting up my Library Data website.&nbsp; Right now it <BR>&gt;&gt;concentrates on the Reavers' Deep, but I will be expanding it to include <BR>&gt;&gt;more later.<BR><BR>Great work, Jimmy!&nbsp; <BR><BR>I'm running a game set in Reaver's Deep, so this will certainly come in handy.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:55:52 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR><BR>On 03/11/01 at 09:00 PM,&nbsp; Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;At 09:39 PM 3/9/2001 -0600, Eris wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;there...<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;LOL! Well, they'll be passing though a system that produces a "spice" that <BR>&gt;&gt;is addictive and narcotic to Aslan.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Eris<BR><BR>&gt;So what and where is this world with the spice?&nbsp; If it's in the<BR>&gt;Deep, I&nbsp; would like to add it to my new website?<BR><BR>Jimmy, don't count on me sticking *only* to canon.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt; The world<BR>with the spice is Daken, and the part about it being addictive to<BR>Aslan is my own enhancement.&nbsp; I'm sure I'll be generating plenty of<BR>data that "extends" any published material about the Deep as my<BR>group travels around. <BR><BR>Example one:&nbsp; I've added a good bit of information about the<BR>"natives" of Scotia that isn't published anywhere.&nbsp; Scotia is a<BR>world of estates for Caledonian noblity, but before the nobles came<BR>a population of low tech people lived on the island chains.&nbsp; Today<BR>those primatives have been, mostly, reduced being servants and<BR>gardeners for the estate holders, but there is still an entire<BR>Islander Culture out there.<BR><BR>Example two:&nbsp; I've fleshed out Drellesarr a good bit, adding details<BR>about the "Freeport"(Blackjack), the government (yes it's 0 law<BR>level, but that's just weapon's law, there *is* a government), a<BR>famous local bar, and a number of other things.<BR><BR>I suspect I've been digging through the same source material you<BR>have.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt; Oh, btw, I don't have Khtearie as officially part of the<BR>Gralyn Union, do you have a reference for that?<BR><BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:58:17 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791<BR><BR>On 03/11/01 at 10:15 PM,&nbsp; GDWGAMES@aol.com said:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Sounds good to me, John.&nbsp; My concern would be wrinkles: if the suit <BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause the <BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; wearer's skin to pucker.&nbsp; Space-hickeys, basically.&nbsp; So the suit <BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the joints.<BR><BR>&gt;It has always occured to me that the genitalia would be especially<BR>&gt;sensitive&nbsp; to this sort of problem. Special arrangements are no<BR>&gt;doubt made.<BR><BR>Some things are better left to the imagination...or not!&nbsp; &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:16:09 -0500<BR>From: Gordon Hundley &lt;drgoon@netaxs.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR><BR>on 11/3/01 5:09 pm, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Nanotech makes change<BR>&gt; Hardware will become smaller<BR>&gt; Need to rewrite rules<BR><BR>Which made me think of Chapter 24 (of the I Ching), and Barrett singing<BR>"Change returns success". :)<BR><BR>Gordon.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:53:46 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR><BR>That was certainly a keeper !<BR><BR>Well done, Hal!<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:10:01 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Newbie Essays<BR><BR>Jens Rydholm wrote :<BR>&gt; Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Hey Doug; I don't consider myself a newbie, or an<BR>&gt; &gt; old master like yourself. What the hell am I (and<BR>&gt; &gt; for that matter the others on the list in the same<BR>&gt; &gt; boat)? ...:-)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I believe the correct title is 'Initiate'<BR><BR>Which gives you free access to cult skill training and battle-magic, and the<BR>abiity to purchase one-use rune spells.<BR><BR>Hmm, anyone written up the Cult of the TML Great Old Ones yet ?<BR><BR>Cult Rune Spells<BR><BR>ONE POINT SPELLS<BR><BR>Summon Small Penguin<BR>Duration : Hours equal to 20 minus penguin's Int<BR>Range : 20 yards<BR>Reusable<BR>A specialist rune-spell of the Berry sub-cult, freinds of the Penguin Boy<BR>can be taught this spell which acts in a similar way to other elemental<BR>summoning spells, but reaults in the apearance of a penguin of smaller<BR>stature.<BR><BR><BR>Two Point Spells<BR>Ignite Flame War<BR>Duration : Interminable&nbsp; Range : limited only by cross posting controls<BR>Reusable<BR>The friendly cult of alt.syntax.tactical allows TML cultists to have their<BR>very own flame wars.<BR><BR>Summon Large Penguin<BR>Duration : Hours equal to 20 minus penguin's Int<BR>Range : 20 yards<BR>Reusable<BR>As per Summon Small Penguin, but reaults in the appearance of a penguin of<BR>larger stature.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 01:09:04 -0600<BR>From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR><BR>At 10:55 PM 3/11/2001 -0600, you wrote:<BR>&gt;On 03/11/01 at 09:00 PM,&nbsp; Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt; said:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Jimmy, don't count on me sticking *only* to canon.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt; The world<BR>&gt;with the spice is Daken, and the part about it being addictive to<BR>&gt;Aslan is my own enhancement.&nbsp; I'm sure I'll be generating plenty of<BR>&gt;data that "extends" any published material about the Deep as my<BR>&gt;group travels around.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Example one:&nbsp; I've added a good bit of information about the<BR>&gt;"natives" of Scotia that isn't published anywhere.&nbsp; Scotia is a<BR>&gt;world of estates for Caledonian noblity, but before the nobles came<BR>&gt;a population of low tech people lived on the island chains.&nbsp; Today<BR>&gt;those primatives have been, mostly, reduced being servants and<BR>&gt;gardeners for the estate holders, but there is still an entire<BR>&gt;Islander Culture out there.<BR><BR>The only problem I have with "natives" of Scotia, is that there is already <BR>two minor human races just next door, Rejhappur (RD 1218) and Drexilthar <BR>(RD 1826) (and I also included Derek Stanley's Ayansh'i, does anyone know <BR>what happened to him, or where his website has moved too), so that's two <BR>(or three) mhr's.&nbsp; J. Andrew Keith, in his write up of the Caledonian <BR>subsector in Traveller Chronicle #5 said that there are only two non-human <BR>minor races "native" to the Caledonian subsector, the Yn-tsai and the Lhshana.<BR><BR>&gt;Example two:&nbsp; I've fleshed out Drellesarr a good bit, adding details<BR>&gt;about the "Freeport"(Blackjack), the government (yes it's 0 law<BR>&gt;level, but that's just weapon's law, there *is* a government), a<BR>&gt;famous local bar, and a number of other things.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I suspect I've been digging through the same source material you<BR>&gt;have.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt; Oh, btw, I don't have Khtearie as officially part of the<BR>&gt;Gralyn Union, do you have a reference for that?<BR><BR>Traveller Chronicle #6 is the reference, but you are right the posting is <BR>not clear.&nbsp; It should read:<BR>"The Gralyn Union is made up of Gralyn (Reavers' Deep 1735), it's moon <BR>Askoapoy, Botany Bay (Reavers' Deep 1734) and one of the nations on <BR>Khtearle (Reavers' Deep 1733)."<BR><BR>My next update will correct that page.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;Eris<BR>&gt;--<BR>&gt;-----------------------------------------------------------<BR>&gt;eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>&gt;http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>&gt;-----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR>Jimmy Simpson<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>"The avalanche has already started.<BR>It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:13:15 -0000<BR>From: "Jeff Rowse" &lt;jeffrowse@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Oh, Belgium!<BR><BR>&lt;SNIP&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:35:39 -0800 (PST)<BR>&gt;From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Antaine's Newbie essay<BR>&gt;<BR>&lt;/SNIP&gt;<BR>Dammit, that's the first time I've heard of a Newbie Essay Keyboard Kill.&nbsp; <BR>And it's the pc at work, too...&nbsp; #8(<BR><BR>Jeff.<BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:03:51 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote :-<BR>&gt; SLOW and FAST drug use.&nbsp; And since one list member pointed out<BR>&gt; problems with hypothermia - use specially designed flight suits that<BR>&gt; maintain pilot temperatures to combat such problems &lt;grin&gt;.<BR><BR>This isn't a solution.<BR>Your metabolism is either sped up (slow) or greatly slowed (fast drug).<BR>At least with the proposed suits you would be comfortable with the slow<BR>drug.<BR><BR>Fast drug is another matter. All metabolism is slowed 60:1, IIRC. This<BR>includes immune function, as it must. At usual body temperatures, all you<BR>will do is rot faster.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3792<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (rly-yd03.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.3]) by air-yd02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:04:11 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:03:53 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id FAA71611;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:02:46 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:02:03 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id FAA71557<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:02:02 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:02:02 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103121002.FAA71557@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3792<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, March 12 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3793<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791<BR>Subject: The cult of TML<BR>Re: Newbie Essays<BR>RE: Question about the Imperial military<BR>RE: Subject: The cult of TML<BR>RE: Hello, and my apologies<BR>RE: dogs &amp; humans<BR>Lookin For...<BR>Re: Space Hickeys<BR>RE: Space Hickeys<BR>Re: Newbie Essays<BR>re: Hello, and my apologies<BR>RE: Lookin For...<BR>re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR>Re: Wealth<BR>re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR>Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR>Re: Lookin For...<BR>Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:04:05 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791<BR><BR>Loren wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Sounds good to me, John.&nbsp; My concern would be wrinkles: if the<BR>&gt; &gt; suit isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause<BR>&gt; &gt; the wearer's skin to pucker.&nbsp; Space-hickeys, basically.&nbsp; So the<BR>&gt; &gt; suit would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the<BR>&gt; &gt; joints.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; It has always occured to me that the genitalia would be<BR>&gt; especially sensitive to this sort of problem. Special<BR>&gt; arrangements are no doubt made.<BR><BR>With high-TL medicine there's always "offsite" storage:&nbsp; surgical<BR>removal, with re-attachment as and when needed.&nbsp; Probably&nbsp; safer,<BR>too, having the "family jewels" kept in a safe somewhere.<BR><BR>(Possible adventure ideas: hilarity ensues when there is a mix-up<BR>at the hospital and the wrong, er, ... maybe not.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:19:15 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ian=20Cooper?= &lt;ian_hammond_cooper@yahoo.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Subject: The cult of TML<BR><BR>Jens Rydholm wrote :<BR>&gt;I believe the correct title is 'Initiate'<BR><BR>Frank G. Pitt:<BR>&gt;Which gives you free access to cult skill training<BR>and battle-magic, <BR>&gt;and the abiity to purchase one-use rune spells.<BR><BR>&lt;snipped RQ TML cult&gt;<BR><BR>Well under the HeroWars system, that has replaced RQ<BR>as Glorantha's game system of choice, <BR><BR>http:\\www.glorantha.com<BR><BR>this would be (as a theist cult rather than animist,<BR>sorcerer or mystic)<BR><BR>The Cult of the TML<BR><BR>Description/Common Knowledge<BR>The Traveller Mailing List (TML) is open to<BR>discussions on all aspects of Traveller. It exists as<BR>a means for the Traveller Player/GM to exchange ideas<BR>and discuss the various aspects of the Traveller<BR>System, and its universe.<BR><BR>Entry Requirements<BR>To subscribe to the TML, send a mail message to<BR>traveller-request@lists.ient.com <BR>Complete&nbsp; a newbie assignment.<BR><BR>Physical Abilities<BR>Type without rest&nbsp; <BR><BR>Mental Abilities<BR>Compose Reply, Digest huge number of postings,<BR>Understand Netiquette, Post Message<BR><BR>Virtues<BR>Supportive, Welcoming<BR><BR>Affinities <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Extropolate (Reference esoteric knowledge, Hold<BR>Forth on Any Topic, Make Observation Traveller,<BR>Digress beyond value, Invoke Canon)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Flame(Initiate flame War, Sarcastic Assault,<BR>Willfully Misinterpet Other,Peace Through Humor,<BR>Reductio ad absurdio, Refute reply, Personal Insult)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Gearhead (Engineer Universe on Spreadhseet, Know<BR>How Starships Work, Understand Incomprehensible<BR>Technology, Analyze the Imaginary)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>Secret<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Keyboard Kill: Allows the hero a final action in<BR>any contest in which they previously used another<BR>Affinity, even where one would not otherwise be<BR>allowed. <BR>Sacrifices<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Time &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>Worshippers<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Various: includes CT, MT, TNE and GT<BR>Manifestations<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; As Digest or as mail<BR>Holy Days<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; None specific<BR>Other Side<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Disputed by the various adherents.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>Other Connections<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Traveller culture, Citizens of the Imperium<BR>Disadvantages<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Geek image&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR><BR><BR>____________________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk<BR>or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:54:26 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: RE: Newbie Essays<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Hmm, anyone written up the Cult of the TML Great Old Ones yet ?<BR><BR>You missed Rune affiliation. I'd argue for 'Truth' and 'Disorder'.<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Cult Rune Spells<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;ONE POINT SPELLS<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Summon Small Penguin<BR>&gt;Duration : Hours equal to 20 minus penguin's Int<BR>&gt;Range : 20 yards<BR>&gt;Reusable<BR>&gt;A specialist rune-spell of the Berry sub-cult, freinds of the Penguin Boy<BR>&gt;can be taught this spell which acts in a similar way to other elemental<BR>&gt;summoning spells, but reaults in the apearance of a penguin of smaller<BR>&gt;stature.<BR><BR>Shouldnt that be 'friends of Penguin Boy' ? And how is Penguin Boy linked to the Vadeli ?<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Two Point Spells<BR>&gt;Ignite Flame War<BR>&gt;Duration : Interminable&nbsp; Range : limited only by cross posting controls<BR>&gt;Reusable<BR>&gt;The friendly cult of alt.syntax.tactical allows TML cultists to have their<BR>&gt;very own flame wars.<BR><BR>Alt.syntax.tactical ... so that what killed the God of the Silver Ill-shut-up-now-before-the-Sending-Ones-<BR>get-me. Hmmm, Is there an R. Kat on mil.syntax.tactical ...<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Summon Large Penguin<BR>&gt;Duration : Hours equal to 20 minus penguin's Int<BR>&gt;Range : 20 yards<BR>&gt;Reusable<BR>&gt;As per Summon Small Penguin, but reaults in the appearance of a penguin of<BR>&gt;larger stature.<BR><BR>Note that the God Learners attempted to warp this spell by summoning a Penguin with an INT of <BR>infinitly negative (cf the sinking of the Jrusteli Isles).<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:08:46 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Question about the Imperial military<BR><BR>Patrick wrote:<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>There are GT supplements for army and&nbsp; scouts&nbsp; but&nbsp; the&nbsp; navy&nbsp; is<BR>missing at present.&nbsp; So first lets have a quick 'n dirty&nbsp; summary<BR>of the Imperium's naval assets (done from memory, ain't I sad):<BR><BR>The Imperium's&nbsp; navy&nbsp; has&nbsp; three&nbsp; tiers.&nbsp; The&nbsp; top&nbsp; tier&nbsp; is&nbsp; the<BR>"Imperial&nbsp; Navy",&nbsp; below&nbsp; that&nbsp; are&nbsp; numerous&nbsp; subsector&nbsp;&nbsp; navies<BR>(sometimes called Colonial&nbsp; Navies),&nbsp; and&nbsp; below&nbsp; that&nbsp; are&nbsp; many<BR>planetary navies.&nbsp; Colonial Navies don't always have&nbsp; top-of-the-<BR>line ships but have sufficiant number to be a significant&nbsp; force.<BR>Planetary navies are usually smaller and usually don't have&nbsp; jump<BR>capability (they are&nbsp; primarily&nbsp; for&nbsp; a&nbsp; world's&nbsp; defence).&nbsp; Many<BR>planetary navies are&nbsp; just&nbsp; squadrons&nbsp; of&nbsp; SDBs&nbsp; (system&nbsp; defense<BR>boats) that use hit and run tactics (think WW2 U-boats).<BR><BR>The basic unit of a navy is the&nbsp; squadron.&nbsp; These&nbsp; are&nbsp; organised<BR>into fleets.&nbsp; Squadron types are&nbsp; battle&nbsp; squadron&nbsp; ("Batron"&nbsp; or<BR>"BR"), cruiser squadron&nbsp; ("Cruron"&nbsp; or&nbsp; "CR"),&nbsp; assualt&nbsp; squadron<BR>("AR"),&nbsp; tanker&nbsp; squadron&nbsp; ("TR"),&nbsp; and&nbsp; scout&nbsp; squadron&nbsp; ("SR").<BR>Batrons and crurons are&nbsp; the&nbsp; main&nbsp; force&nbsp; of&nbsp; a&nbsp; fleet,&nbsp; assault<BR>squadrons are large troop transports, tanker&nbsp; squadrons&nbsp; are&nbsp; for<BR>fast refueling, and scout squadrons are made up&nbsp; of&nbsp; recon&nbsp; ships<BR>and couriers (they are considered&nbsp; squadrons&nbsp; on&nbsp; paper&nbsp; but&nbsp; are<BR>usually dispersed on missions).<BR><BR>Batrons&nbsp; can&nbsp; be&nbsp; made&nbsp; of&nbsp; battleships&nbsp; (aka&nbsp; dreadnaughts)&nbsp;&nbsp; or<BR>battleriders.&nbsp; (Frontier forces&nbsp; tend&nbsp; to&nbsp; be&nbsp; the&nbsp; former&nbsp; while<BR>reinforcements tend to be the latter.):&nbsp; It costs to armour&nbsp; each<BR>dton of warship and for jump-4 capability a drive and fuel&nbsp; tanks<BR>can be about half the&nbsp; ship.&nbsp; Battleriders&nbsp; have&nbsp; no&nbsp; j-drive&nbsp; or<BR>j-drive fuel, instead&nbsp; they&nbsp; are&nbsp; transported&nbsp; by&nbsp; an&nbsp; unarmoured<BR>battle tender (which sits safely to the rear of any combat).<BR><BR>Cruisers come in a wide variety of types: heavy, light,&nbsp; armoured<BR>(with extra hull armour), strike (slower, but geared&nbsp; for&nbsp; ground<BR>attack), ...<BR><BR>Typical dreadnaught classes: Plankwell,&nbsp; Tigress&nbsp; (looks&nbsp; like&nbsp; a<BR>giant pacman or "Happy Eater"), Kokirrak ...&nbsp; The&nbsp; only&nbsp; pictures<BR>I've seen of battle riders/tenders&nbsp; show&nbsp; the&nbsp; riders&nbsp; as&nbsp; wedge-<BR>shaped (like Star Wars), attached 6 to a tender&nbsp; (open&nbsp; frame,&nbsp; a<BR>bit like the International Space Station).<BR><BR>Typical cruiser classes: Ghalalk class Armored Cruiser,&nbsp; Arakoine<BR>class Strike Cruiser (looks like a fat beetle), Wind class Strike<BR>Carrier (looks like Battlestar Galactica), ...<BR><BR>So, for example, IMTU the 214th Fleet under&nbsp; Admiral&nbsp; Romao&nbsp; (and<BR>based at Glisten) is composed&nbsp; of&nbsp; BR123,&nbsp; BR504,&nbsp; CR358,&nbsp; CR501,<BR>CR502, and colonial CR2510.&nbsp; That&nbsp; makes&nbsp; 32&nbsp; capital&nbsp; ships,&nbsp; 88<BR>support ships, and 275 battalions.<BR><BR><BR><BR>I recommend you try and get "The Spinward Marches" campaign,&nbsp; the<BR>"Supplements" (Classic Reprints), and the&nbsp; "Fifth&nbsp; Frontier&nbsp; War"<BR>(boardgame).&nbsp;&nbsp; All&nbsp; are&nbsp; CT&nbsp; products&nbsp; but&nbsp; have&nbsp; usable&nbsp;&nbsp; source<BR>material.&nbsp; Also, you might find&nbsp; some&nbsp; stuff&nbsp; in&nbsp; the&nbsp; "Rebellion<BR>Sourcebook"&nbsp; (for&nbsp; MT).&nbsp;&nbsp; *Avoid*&nbsp; the&nbsp; "Fighting&nbsp; Ships&nbsp; of&nbsp; the<BR>Shattered Imperium"&nbsp; at&nbsp; all&nbsp; costs&nbsp; (not&nbsp; to&nbsp; be&nbsp; confused&nbsp; with<BR>"Fighting Ships" in "Supplements").<BR><BR>Also, some of the old CT ships (especially the&nbsp; dreadnaughts&nbsp; and<BR>cruisers)&nbsp; have&nbsp; been&nbsp; converted&nbsp; to&nbsp; MT&nbsp; and&nbsp;&nbsp; are&nbsp;&nbsp; posted&nbsp;&nbsp; to<BR>StuffOnline, along&nbsp; with&nbsp; a&nbsp; partially&nbsp; detailed&nbsp; Imperial&nbsp; fleet<BR>(the 214th based at Glisten).<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; StuffOnline:&nbsp; http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol<BR><BR>For possible conflicts ... there was a large army mobilisation on<BR>Efate with the Imperium v the Ine Givar&nbsp; just&nbsp; before&nbsp; the&nbsp; Fifth<BR>Frontier War, there was the Fifth Frontier&nbsp; War&nbsp; itself,&nbsp; or&nbsp; you<BR>could&nbsp; do&nbsp; something&nbsp; with&nbsp; the&nbsp; aftermath:&nbsp; the&nbsp;&nbsp; Sword&nbsp;&nbsp; Worlds<BR>Confederation was split in two as a result&nbsp; of&nbsp; the&nbsp; 5FW,&nbsp; rather<BR>than think of it as a metaphor for post-WW2 Germany think&nbsp; of&nbsp; it<BR>as a metaphor for the Middle East (the Sword Worlds&nbsp; as&nbsp; Lebanon,<BR>the Imperium as Isreal, and the Border&nbsp; Worlds&nbsp; as&nbsp; the&nbsp; occupied<BR>territories).&nbsp; You can then have an Imperial fleet action against<BR>bases of the BWLO (Border Worlds Liberation&nbsp; Organiseation)&nbsp; that<BR>are in the remaining Sword Worlds and attacking&nbsp; Imperial&nbsp; assets<BR>in and around the Border Worlds.<BR><BR>As for adventure ideas, the one I used was for the players to&nbsp; be<BR>part of Irregular Operations (aka the odd-job squad).&nbsp; Based on a<BR>cruiser during the 5FW, the group of junior naval officers,&nbsp; NCOs<BR>and an attached Marine were given tasks such as search and rescue<BR>(of fighter pilots after an engagement), recon, covert&nbsp; transport<BR>(behind enemy lines), etc.<BR><BR>How's that?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:28:46 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Subject: The cult of TML<BR><BR>Ian Cooper wrote:<BR>&gt; The Cult of the TML<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; Holy Days<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; None specific<BR><BR>Well we should have one then.&nbsp; On what day&nbsp; was&nbsp; Traveller&nbsp; first<BR>published?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:00:24 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Hello, and my apologies<BR><BR>Larsen writes:<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR>&gt;I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil <BR>&gt;delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st.&nbsp; I'm currently resting at a <BR>&gt;relative's home with a few busted limbs.&nbsp; Walking lessons will begin in a <BR>&gt;few weeks.<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ouch.&nbsp; How many D of damage is that?&nbsp; Hope you are back to<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; full hit points soon!<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:14:57 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: dogs &amp; humans<BR><BR>DaveShayne writes:<BR>&gt;&gt;FYI: a common missuse of the term "symbiosis" is to refer to a<BR>&gt;&gt;mutually beneficial relationship between two organisms.&nbsp; In fact,<BR>&gt;&gt;it means a very close relationship between two organisms.&nbsp; Thus,<BR>&gt;&gt;a tapeworm and its host are in a symbiotic relationship.&nbsp; When<BR>&gt;&gt;the interaction between two organisms is mutually beneficial, it<BR>&gt;&gt;is called a mutualism.<BR>&gt;Mea Culpa.<BR>&gt;In my defense I'm not sure mutualism was commonly in use when<BR>&gt;I was learning the lingo (late seventies.)<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; That is not unusual, and it has started to become accepted in<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that definition because of popular use.&nbsp; (I belately checked the<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Webster's dictionary: the second definition of symbiosis is<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a mutually benificial interaction.&nbsp; Thus, in popular use it is not<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; really a "missuse" of the term.&nbsp; Such is the evolution of a<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; language.)<BR><BR>&gt;The way I learned it if the relationship was mutually benificial it was<BR>&gt;symbiotic if it was unilateraly benificial it was refered to as parasitic.<BR>&lt;snipped&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Broadly speaking an interaction between species in which one<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; benefits while the other suffers is either parasitism or predator-<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; prey.&nbsp; The line between the two is pretty blurry, and there are<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; parsitoids that fall in between somewhere.&nbsp; An interaction in<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; which both suffer is typically competition.&nbsp; An interaction in<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; which one benefits while the other neither benefits nor suffers<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; is a commensalism.&nbsp; When neither benefit or suffer, there is<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; said to be no interaction.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:57:35 -0600<BR>From: Loren Wiseman &lt;lkw@io.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Lookin For...<BR><BR>Can someone help this gentleman?<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:36:19 -0500<BR>&gt;From: "Georges P. Godfrin" &lt;georgesrn@worldnet.att.net&gt;<BR>&gt;Reply-To: georgesrn@worldnet.att.net<BR>&gt;X-Accept-Language: en<BR>&gt;MIME-Version: 1.0<BR>&gt;To: lkw@io.com<BR>&gt;Subject: Lookin For...<BR>&gt;Status: RO<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Dear Ms. Wiseman,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; I am looking for a Traveller based / style / type&nbsp; MUD / MUSH / MOO.<BR>&gt;If you know of any, could you please send the address? Thanks!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Georges<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;georgesrn@worldnet.att.net<BR>&gt;<BR><BR><BR><BR>Loren Wiseman<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society&nbsp; http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SJ Games<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:05:45 -0500<BR>From: Ethan Henry &lt;ethan.henry@sitraka.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Space Hickeys<BR><BR>GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt; Sounds good to me, John.&nbsp; My concern would be wrinkles: if the suit<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause the<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; wearer's skin to pucker.&nbsp; Space-hickeys, basically.&nbsp; So the suit<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the joints.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; It has always occured to me that the genitalia would be especially sensitive<BR>&gt; to this sort of problem. Special arrangements are no doubt made.<BR><BR>I imagine that there's be something like a smooth, airtight pair of <BR>underwear on that makes the wearer look something like a Barbie or<BR>Ken doll - just smooth platic-y-ness where tender bits had once been.<BR><BR>(Where's Kenji to expound on the semiotics of the impact of <BR>androgeny on spacer culture?)<BR><BR>Alternatively, you might fill the area with some sort of <BR>non-compressive yet breathable gel that 'fills in the blanks' as it<BR>were. You'll probably cover the whole body in something akin to <BR>vaseline anyway to reduce chaffing. As anyone who has ever had<BR>runner's nipple knows, chaffing is a real and present danger.<BR><BR>At any rate, if we compare to something like a modern wetsuit,<BR>you don't get ultra-wedgie because the suit forces your buttocks<BR>together making one "mono-buttock" and leaving very little space<BR>inbetween.<BR><BR>Ethan<BR><BR>Yes, I just posted this so I could write "buttock". Heh he he heh.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:23:55 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Space Hickeys<BR><BR>Ethan Henry wrote:<BR>&gt; Alternatively, you might fill the area with some sort of <BR>&gt; non-compressive yet breathable gel that 'fills in the blanks'<BR>&gt; as it were. You'll probably cover the whole body in something<BR>&gt; akin to vaseline anyway to reduce chaffing.<BR><BR>LOL!&nbsp; That sounds like Bert's character in the film "Striptease" ...<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; Yes, I just posted this so I could write "buttock". Heh he he heh.<BR><BR>From "Striptease" to "Bevis &amp; Butthead".<BR><BR>Hmmm ... twisted adventure plot a brewin'!<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:27:52 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays<BR><BR>&gt;From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Your essay assignment:&nbsp; How do you complain to the Imperial Government?<BR><BR>Good assignment, Doug!<BR><BR>&gt;As an example, how would citizens go about getting the Imperial Navy to<BR>&gt;restrict the flight hours at a naval base's landing field?&nbsp; <BR><BR>This is a nice segue into a conversation that Luther Martin and I had a<BR>while ago:&nbsp; What do people experience in the presence of gravitic drives? <BR>If you're standing beside a hovering air/raft, do you hear anything? Are<BR>there any visual phenomena beside or below the vehicle?&nbsp; What if you're<BR>under a floating or moving grav vehicle?&nbsp; Do you feel pressure or anything<BR>at all?&nbsp; <BR><BR>What if you're inside the vehicle:&nbsp; Do you feel your normal weight?&nbsp; Do<BR>you feel inertia as you change direction or speed (probably not)?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Are there any health effects associated with gravitics?&nbsp; Do gravitic<BR>technicians suffer any damage to the parts of their bodies exposed to the<BR>drives?&nbsp; What about users?&nbsp; What about people over whom grav vehicles fly?<BR><BR>Here's another health issue:&nbsp; In a major city (like Credo, Regina, for an<BR>easy example in my Traveller universe), there will be gravitic<BR>thoroughfares for flight safety reasons.&nbsp; Will people living under these<BR>thoroughfares suffer any health effects?<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.<BR>http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:43:20 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Hello, and my apologies<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" &lt;grote1731@hotmail.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last<BR>&gt;few weeks.&nbsp; I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an<BR>&gt;oil delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st.&nbsp; I'm currently<BR>&gt;resting at a relative's home with a few busted limbs.&nbsp; Walking lessons<BR>&gt;will begin in a few weeks.<BR><BR>I hope that in the future, you can restrict adventures of this sort to<BR>Traveller campaigns, rather than experiencing them in Real Life (tm).<BR><BR>Good luck, and get well soon.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.<BR>http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:47:14 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Lookin For...<BR><BR>Closest thing i know of is Anarchy Online that is comming out this summer.<BR>Someone on TML said they were working on a traveller online game but im sure<BR>that is a&nbsp; year or 2 till release.<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Loren Wiseman [mailto:lkw@io.com]<BR>Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:58 AM<BR>To: traveller@ient.com<BR>Subject: Lookin For...<BR><BR><BR>Can someone help this gentleman?<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:36:19 -0500<BR>&gt;From: "Georges P. Godfrin" &lt;georgesrn@worldnet.att.net&gt;<BR>&gt;Reply-To: georgesrn@worldnet.att.net<BR>&gt;X-Accept-Language: en<BR>&gt;MIME-Version: 1.0<BR>&gt;To: lkw@io.com<BR>&gt;Subject: Lookin For...<BR>&gt;Status: RO<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Dear Ms. Wiseman,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; I am looking for a Traveller based / style / type&nbsp; MUD / MUSH / MOO.<BR>&gt;If you know of any, could you please send the address? Thanks!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Georges<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;georgesrn@worldnet.att.net<BR>&gt;<BR><BR><BR><BR>Loren Wiseman<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society<BR>http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; SJ Games<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:00:51 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR><BR>The agent is obviously unhinged:&nbsp; He's happy to kill people who have<BR>already been born in order to demonstrate his loyalty to the organization<BR>that he's infiltrated, but he balks at destroying in vitro fetuses.&nbsp; <BR><BR>There is a great Hong Kong action movie in which two undercover cops<BR>separately infiltrate a criminal organization.&nbsp; Cop #1 gets in first.&nbsp; The<BR>crooks suspect that Cop #2 is a cop, so to test Cop #1's loyalty, they<BR>drive out to a deserted lot and tell Cop #1 to shoot Cop #2 -- which he<BR>does, in the chest, trying to get close enough to the heart to look fatal<BR>but still trying to miss heart and lungs.&nbsp; Then everybody drives away in<BR>many vehicles.&nbsp; Cop #1 takes an exit, returns to the vacant lot, throws<BR>Cop #2 into his car, and rushes to the hospital (which he calls on his<BR>cell phone while en route).&nbsp; <BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.<BR>http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:59:43 +0000<BR>From: Martin Hardgrave &lt;martin@deira.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Wealth<BR><BR>In message &lt;EF761B879251D44A995B1BEEEBAC55D3097EEB@RWSCAMIS004.asera.com<BR>&gt;, William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt; writes<BR>&gt;Anyone going to denmark any time soon?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I place total faith ion the face value of my Beer Buck(tm) 8P<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Hasta<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Bill<BR><BR>and it's just the right time of year to get a bottle of Albani<BR>paaskebryg too!<BR>- -- <BR>Martin Hardgrave<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:28:37 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR><BR>At 10:00 AM 03/12/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;The agent is obviously unhinged:&nbsp; He's happy to kill people who have<BR>&gt;already been born in order to demonstrate his loyalty to the organization<BR>&gt;that he's infiltrated, but he balks at destroying in vitro fetuses.&nbsp; <BR><BR><BR>Hello Glenn,<BR>&nbsp; It is a possibility for GM's to portray the Agent as someone who is<BR>unhinged.&nbsp; In some respects, I can see it as being a situation where he<BR>doesn't have much in the way of scruples against killing people who are a<BR>threat to the Imperium, yet define his "threat" parameters a bit more um,<BR>ethically?&nbsp; It is entirely possible, that he saw a chance to have something<BR>of a normal family life without having to go through channels to do it.&nbsp; He<BR>doesn't have any records that point to these kids in any way.&nbsp; He can<BR>rationalize his kidnapping as a means of *saving* the children instead of<BR>for what it was - kidnapping.&nbsp; He easily could have tipped the mother and<BR>father off anonymously, and delivered the kids *after* the danger was past.<BR>He could have continued with his mission instead of going awol.&nbsp; I'm<BR>certain that what ever "managers" still in existance for the<BR>megacorporation would like to have a talk with the man who took their money<BR>for the assassination, but was never seen again afterwards.&nbsp; All sorts of<BR>fun plotlines to work off of after wards &lt;grin&gt;.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:34:11 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR><BR>At 09:03 PM 03/12/2001 +1100, you wrote:<BR>&gt;hal@buffnet.net wrote :-<BR>&gt;&gt; SLOW and FAST drug use.&nbsp; And since one list member pointed out<BR>&gt;&gt; problems with hypothermia - use specially designed flight suits that<BR>&gt;&gt; maintain pilot temperatures to combat such problems &lt;grin&gt;.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;This isn't a solution.<BR>&gt;Your metabolism is either sped up (slow) or greatly slowed (fast drug).<BR>&gt;At least with the proposed suits you would be comfortable with the slow<BR>&gt;drug.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Fast drug is another matter. All metabolism is slowed 60:1, IIRC. This<BR>&gt;includes immune function, as it must. At usual body temperatures, all you<BR>&gt;will do is rot faster.<BR><BR>Hello Robert,<BR>&nbsp; Interesting question for you: if Fast slows the metabolism of the host<BR>body, would it not also slow down the metabolism of the bacteria as well as<BR>viruses that may be present in the body?<BR><BR>In any event &lt;grin&gt; - it almost sounds as if the FAST and SLOW drugs should<BR>be removed from "canon" or at least modified (much like computers were<BR>modified in later editions of TRAVELLER).&nbsp; The whole idea of using the FAST<BR>drug is to expand out the life support of the fighters.&nbsp; I imagine it is<BR>not very popular with the fighter pilots for one particular reason -<BR>"KINKS" &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; After sitting up in a cockpit for hours, they are going to<BR>feel some serious pains after getting out of the cockpit.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:32:27 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Lookin For...<BR><BR>Try MudConnector.com<BR><BR><BR>Loren Wiseman wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Can someone help this gentleman?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:36:19 -0500<BR>&gt; &gt;From: "Georges P. Godfrin" &lt;georgesrn@worldnet.att.net&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Reply-To: georgesrn@worldnet.att.net<BR>&gt; &gt;X-Accept-Language: en<BR>&gt; &gt;MIME-Version: 1.0<BR>&gt; &gt;To: lkw@io.com<BR>&gt; &gt;Subject: Lookin For...<BR>&gt; &gt;Status: RO<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Dear Ms. Wiseman,<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; I am looking for a Traveller based / style / type&nbsp; MUD / MUSH / MOO.<BR>&gt; &gt;If you know of any, could you please send the address? Thanks!<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Georges<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;georgesrn@worldnet.att.net<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Loren Wiseman<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society&nbsp; http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SJ Games<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:11:26 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)<BR><BR>On 03/12/01 at 01:09 AM,&nbsp; Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Example one:&nbsp; I've added a good bit of information about the<BR>&gt;&gt;"natives" of Scotia that isn't published anywhere.&nbsp; Scotia is a<BR>&gt;&gt;world of estates for Caledonian noblity, but before the nobles came<BR>&gt;&gt;a population of low tech people lived on the island chains.&nbsp; Today<BR>&gt;&gt;those primatives have been, mostly, reduced being servants and<BR>&gt;&gt;gardeners for the estate holders, but there is still an entire<BR>&gt;&gt;Islander Culture out there.<BR><BR>&gt;The only problem I have with "natives" of Scotia, is that there is<BR>&gt;already&nbsp; two minor human races just next door, Rejhappur (RD 1218)<BR>&gt;and Drexilthar&nbsp; (RD 1826) <BR><BR>I put "natives" in quotes, because they aren't really natives in the<BR>minor race sense.&nbsp; They are the descendents of marooned crews and<BR>passengers left there during the Long Night by pirates.&nbsp; Scotia was<BR>a good place to dump prisoners, stick them on an island and take<BR>off.&nbsp; Many ended up stuck there for life and their descendents are<BR>the "natives" of Scotia...IMTU, anyway.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;(and I also included Derek Stanley's<BR>&gt;Ayansh'i, does anyone know&nbsp; what happened to him, or where his<BR>&gt;website has moved too), so that's two&nbsp; (or three) mhr's.&nbsp; J. Andrew<BR>&gt;Keith, in his write up of the Caledonian&nbsp; subsector in Traveller<BR>&gt;Chronicle #5 said that there are only two non-human&nbsp; minor races<BR>&gt;"native" to the Caledonian subsector, the Yn-tsai and the Lhshana.<BR><BR>Derek is still around, though not on the TML.&nbsp; His site is at<BR>http://members.home.net/nightrim/Home.html<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Example two:&nbsp; I've fleshed out Drellesarr a good bit, adding details<BR>&gt;&gt;about the "Freeport"(Blackjack), the government (yes it's 0 law<BR>&gt;&gt;level, but that's just weapon's law, there *is* a government), a<BR>&gt;&gt;famous local bar, and a number of other things.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;I suspect I've been digging through the same source material you<BR>&gt;&gt;have.&nbsp; &lt;g&gt; Oh, btw, I don't have Khtearie as officially part of the<BR>&gt;&gt;Gralyn Union, do you have a reference for that?<BR><BR>&gt;Traveller Chronicle #6 is the reference, but you are right the<BR>&gt;posting is&nbsp; not clear.&nbsp; It should read:<BR>&gt;"The Gralyn Union is made up of Gralyn (Reavers' Deep 1735), it's<BR>&gt;moon&nbsp; Askoapoy, Botany Bay (Reavers' Deep 1734) and one of the<BR>&gt;nations on&nbsp; Khtearle (Reavers' Deep 1733)."<BR><BR>Okay. <BR><BR>&gt;My next update will correct that page.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3793<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Monday, March 12 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3794<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Newbie Essays<BR>Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR>re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR>RE: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR>latin<BR>Re: Cult of the TML<BR>Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR>Re: latin<BR>Re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3793<BR>Re: latin<BR>Re: latin<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3793<BR>Re: latin<BR>Re: Traveller Holy Day<BR>Re: Traveller Holy Day<BR>Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR>Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR>Re: Traveller Holy Day<BR>Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR>Gravitics (was Re: Newbie essays)<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:02:21 GMT<BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays<BR><BR>Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;You missed Rune affiliation. I'd argue for 'Truth' and 'Disorder'.<BR><BR>A Traveller cult would definitely need the Movement rune.<BR><BR>(And if we're allowed to use Hero Wars runes, the Cosmos rune as well)<BR><BR>Also, don't forget the TML's dreaded Spirit of Reprisal, the Keyboard<BR>Kill.&nbsp; It attacks offenders in spirit combat then possesses them,<BR>rendering them temporarily helpless and making them spray beverages<BR>over any nearby computer hardware.&nbsp; <BR>INT 2D6+6&nbsp; POW 5D6<BR><BR>Stephen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:02:22 GMT<BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR><BR>Spm073@aol.com writes:<BR><BR><BR>&gt;What do the ships of the Imperium look like?&nbsp; Im trying to find a ship that <BR>&gt;can perform both as a carrier for a few fighters (for its own protection) and <BR>&gt;dropships for marines which are housed on board.&nbsp; Anyone have an suggestions. <BR><BR>Why not the good old Azhanti High Lightning Class cruiser?&nbsp; At 60,000<BR>tons, it's large enough to operate independently, but not so big that<BR>a 500,000 ton enemy battleship couldn't give it serious problems.<BR>It also carries 150 marines, and 80 fighters (its own crew is 395).<BR>Best of all, the details are (presumably- I've not seen it) printed in<BR>the Supplements reprint from Classic Traveller. <BR><BR>If you need something smaller, then the Kinunir class colonial<BR>cruisers are equally good fun.&nbsp; 1250 tons, 35 marines, 45 crew.&nbsp; No<BR>fighters, though.&nbsp; Again, plenty of details and deckplans can be found<BR>in the Adventures reprint.<BR><BR>Both ships are basically flattish wedges with "tailplane"-like dorsal<BR>fins.<BR><BR>GT: Ground Forces also includes details of a more specialised<BR>Marine-carrier starship.&nbsp; (Incidentally, when I spotted the little<BR>detail the artist included on the cargo deck of that ship, I nearly<BR>dropped the book laughing).<BR><BR><BR><BR>Bear in mind that naval combat in Traveller falls into the<BR>"battleship" rather than the "aircraft carrier" paradigm.&nbsp; In other<BR>words, big heavily-armoured warships can only be defeated by equally<BR>big, heavily-armed opponents.&nbsp; Fighters are generally ineffective in a<BR>major fleet action, although they are good for scouting, harrassing<BR>the enemy, ground support, and dealing with minor opponents.<BR><BR>&gt;Also, anyone have any pics or descriptions of the typical Imperial NAval <BR>&gt;officers' uniform/equpiment?&nbsp; Same thing for Marine?<BR><BR>Has anything ever been printed in canon about Imperial Navy uniforms?<BR>"Space-black" seems to be a common colour in general SF works, from<BR>Doc Smith through to David Weber...&nbsp; Of course, I'd think that<BR>high-tech level tailored vacc-suits (with chameleon surface options -<BR>black if you don't want to be detected, flourescent orange if you do)<BR>will be standard wear during combat.<BR><BR>&gt;Im also looking or plot/campaign threads to run these people through, so Id <BR>&gt;appreciate any feedback.<BR><BR>The Third Imperium hasn't been involved in any huge _life-and-death_<BR>wars since its early days (other than a Civil War and, in a different<BR>version of the timeline, a Rebellion).&nbsp; However, it's so big that<BR>there's almost always going to be a border conflict going on somewhere<BR>or other, and occasionally these grow so large that local forces can't<BR>handle it, and the Imperium has to mobilise all its resources. <BR><BR>Quick summary of potential opponents:<BR><BR>The Zhodani and the Solomani:&nbsp; two large human states, both disliking<BR>the Imperium on (different) ideological grounds, and both involved in<BR>major wars with the Imperium in the last century or so.<BR><BR>The Aslan and the Vargr:&nbsp; two alien races, both divided into lots of<BR>competing political units and involved in constant low-grade military<BR>adventures and grabs for territory (again, each for different<BR>reasons).<BR><BR>Border states, client states, etc:&nbsp; too many to list (the Sword Worlds<BR>are one example, mentioned in a previous post).<BR><BR>Internal dissent:&nbsp; since each planet in the Imperium has local<BR>autonomy, and many of them have built their own private battlefleets,<BR>there is an ongoing need for the Imperial Navy to act as a policeman<BR>and make sure things don't get out of hand.<BR><BR>Stephen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:24:02 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR><BR>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; The agent is obviously unhinged:&nbsp; He's happy to kill people who have<BR>&gt; already been born in order to demonstrate his loyalty to the organization<BR>&gt; that he's infiltrated, but he balks at destroying in vitro fetuses.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Oh, if he's unhinged, then so is a lot of America.&nbsp; Valuing fetal life<BR>higher than walking-around, living-life life is considered a religious<BR>obligation by a loud, obnoxious religious minority in this country that<BR>loves to pretend they're the majority, even though they really are just<BR>loud.<BR><BR>Kiri<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:44:16 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; The agent is obviously unhinged:&nbsp; He's happy to kill people who have<BR>&gt;&gt; already been born in order to demonstrate his loyalty to the organization<BR>&gt;&gt; that he's infiltrated, but he balks at destroying in vitro fetuses.&nbsp; <BR><BR>&gt;Oh, if he's unhinged, then so is a lot of America.&nbsp; Valuing fetal life<BR>&gt;higher than walking-around, living-life life is considered a religious<BR>&gt;obligation by a loud, obnoxious religious minority in this country that<BR>&gt;loves to pretend they're the majority, even though they really are just<BR>&gt;loud.<BR><BR>&gt;Kiri<BR><BR>Totally agree with kiri 8P<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:55:46 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: latin<BR><BR>I never studied Latin and well i saw this in the topic of a message<BR><BR>anyone know what it means?<BR><BR>Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit<BR>materiari?<BR><BR>for all i know it is an insult. but my curiosity got the better of me.<BR><BR>heres to hoping it is not offensive.<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:58:01 +1100<BR>From: Ian or Katts &lt;ikjw@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Cult of the TML<BR><BR>&gt;From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ian=20Cooper?= &lt;ian_hammond_cooper@yahoo.co.uk&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Well under the HeroWars system, that has replaced RQ<BR>&gt;as Glorantha's game system of choice, <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;http:\\www.glorantha.com<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;this would be (as a theist cult rather than animist,<BR>&gt;sorcerer or mystic)<BR><BR>God Learner heretic ! Meldek ! What was good enough for our forefathers is good enough for us !<BR><BR>&gt;Sacrifices<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Time &nbsp; &nbsp; <BR><BR>Coool. Can we sacrifice her daughter too ? Wait. She already did that herself.<BR><BR>Kenji. Famile Spofulam. Tendency to buy large amounts of RL ammunition to sacrifice in the mystic <BR>land of 'Oregon'.<BR><BR>Ian Whitchurch<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:20:45 -0600<BR>From: Chris Olson &lt;chris@pdaguy.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR><BR>Glen Goffin wrote:<BR>&gt; What do people experience in the presence of gravitic drives?<BR>&gt; If you're standing beside a hovering air/raft, do you hear anything? Are<BR>&gt; there any visual phenomena beside or below the vehicle?&nbsp; What if you're<BR>&gt; under a floating or moving grav vehicle?&nbsp; Do you feel pressure or anything<BR>&gt; at all?&nbsp; <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; What if you're inside the vehicle:&nbsp; Do you feel your normal weight?&nbsp; Do<BR>&gt; you feel inertia as you change direction or speed (probably not)?&nbsp; <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Are there any health effects associated with gravitics?&nbsp; Do gravitic<BR>&gt; technicians suffer any damage to the parts of their bodies exposed to the&nbsp; <BR>&gt; drives?&nbsp; What about users?&nbsp; What about people over whom grav vehicles fly?<BR>Ok, a cool set of questions I feel like answering.&nbsp; Please bear in mind <BR>that this in IMHO and IMTU so you can take it or leave it, there are no <BR>canon referents laying around (although I would like to hear about <BR>anything I contradict on my merry way, and oh yeah, this will probably <BR>exceed reasonable length :-)<BR><BR>Gravitic drives function by altering the exchange of gravitons in thier <BR>environment.&nbsp; When two or more objects intereact gravitcally they are <BR>exchanging these quantum particles.&nbsp;&nbsp; The gravitic drive functions by <BR>deflecting the particles and preventing this interection.&nbsp; This <BR>particular definition of how gravitc drives work has a number of <BR>implications related to the questions above.&nbsp; Lets address them one at a <BR>time:<BR><BR>1)&nbsp; What do people experience in the presence of a gravitic drive?&nbsp; <BR>Hearing? Sight?<BR><BR>The only noise aI can imagine a gravitic drive making is whatever <BR>electronic humm that the circuitry would produce.&nbsp; Looking at the force <BR>required to lift an air/raft, I would say the humm would be noticable, <BR>but not to loud, similar to a transformer on a pole.&nbsp; The visual effects <BR>would be quite interesting.&nbsp; Let me explain...<BR><BR>Gravitons are exchanged between two objects.&nbsp; During the exchange, the <BR>objects are moved closer to each other in proportion to the gravitons <BR>exchanged.&nbsp; Reflecting the gravtions results in a net force away from <BR>the source of the gravitons, proportional to the masses involved.&nbsp; You <BR>can tune both the strength and the angle of reflection to provide lift <BR>and thrust similar to a helicopter.&nbsp; Note that these reflected gravitons <BR>will want to attract objects toward the air/raft starship!&nbsp; Note that <BR>the reflection would be unfocused and lamp-light-like in nature (rapidly <BR>spreading out in all directions).<BR><BR>There, with that explanation, we can imagine what a low-level air/raft <BR>looks like.&nbsp; It sould be surrounded by small bits of dust and dirt drawn <BR>toward the air/raft (rather like an intact on a large engine).&nbsp; Due to <BR>the unfocused nature, and the fact that it is in fact not completely <BR>negating gravity (to keep the air/raft from starting to climb) only <BR>small objects are in any real danger of fly off the ground.&nbsp; It is <BR>concievable that an air/raft can accumulate a significant junk of grit <BR>on the bottom, but cycling the gravity on/off should be able to <BR>discourage any large scale accumulations.&nbsp; But the area around the <BR>bottom of the air/raft will be filled with swirling debris, grass being <BR>pulled up toward the air/raft, etc.<BR><BR>Standing on the ground near an air/raft (within a few feet) would result <BR>in a similar sensation to walking on ice, as your feet and loweer legs <BR>are drawn slightly toward the air/raft.<BR><BR>2) What happens if a grav vehicle flies over you? At close range and far?<BR><BR>Like a helicaopter,&nbsp; you feel nothing if the vehicle is some distance <BR>away, but if it is fairly close (left as an exercise to the reader) , <BR>you could be lifted from ou feet and pulled up into the bottom of the <BR>air/raft.&nbsp; At speed, this would be a lift and drop plus tumble effect <BR>(in addition to any urge to duck!)<BR><BR>3) Do passengers feel thier normal weight?&nbsp; Does inertia matter?<BR><BR>Nope, no weight without a gravitc generator to pull them toward the <BR>air/raft.&nbsp; Inertia rules still apply though.&nbsp; Without the gravity <BR>generator, you will need to be buckled in.<BR><BR>4) Any health risks involved with gravitics?&nbsp; To technicians? Those <BR>living under flyways?<BR><BR>Health risks are probably more to the techs than to the people living <BR>under the flyways (although a small, but vocal minority points to <BR>statistical anomolies to people living in these flyways being more <BR>susceptable to disease than others, but other people point out that the <BR>health care for these people is not up to par because only the poor live <BR>along these flyways, etc.).<BR><BR>Techs working on these devices, if they are on, may be subjected to <BR>shear forces, especially as they get closer to the actual device <BR>itself.&nbsp; The energies involved may also have slightly detriemental <BR>effects on thier health (anybody care to speeculate on the effects of <BR>powerful electro-magnetic-gravitic fields with steep gradients on living <BR>tissues?)<BR><BR>Injuries to techs will probably range from micro-fractures of the bones <BR>to ligament and connective tissue dislocation.&nbsp; Safety regs for working <BR>on these things probably stress keeping hands and feet outside the <BR>fields, and not to pass unbraced equipment through it either (to avoid <BR>secondary injury from the tool making a sudden sharp turn to the right, <BR>for instance)<BR><BR>Chris Olson<BR><BR>PS.&nbsp; Another post!&nbsp; That's two in two weeks?&nbsp; Am I delurking or just bored?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:30:54 +0100<BR>From: Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: latin<BR><BR>William Lane wrote:<BR>&gt; anyone know what it means?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit<BR>&gt; materiari?<BR><BR>How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?<BR><BR>I might be misinformed, but this is the meaning I know. I don't know the<BR>language, I learn it by rote.<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:33:25 +0100<BR>From: Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR><BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>&gt; Oh, if he's unhinged, then so is a lot of America.&nbsp; Valuing fetal life<BR>&gt; higher than walking-around, living-life life is considered a religious<BR>&gt; obligation by a loud, obnoxious religious minority in this country that<BR>&gt; loves to pretend they're the majority, even though they really are just<BR>&gt; loud.<BR><BR>What?!?! You mean they *lied* to me?<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:04:01 -0000<BR>From: "Jeff Rowse" &lt;jeffrowse@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3793<BR><BR>&lt;SNIP&gt;<BR>&gt;From: Glenn Goffin Subject: re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The agent is obviously unhinged: He's happy to kill people who have already <BR>&gt;been born in order to demonstrate his loyalty to the organization that he's <BR>&gt;infiltrated, but he balks at destroying in vitro fetuses.<BR>&lt;/SNIP&gt;<BR><BR>Glenn,<BR>I believe the point was made that the agent had killed only people whom he <BR>considered to be 'bad' anyway, so it wasn't quite the same as killing two <BR>unborns.&nbsp; As in everything though, YMMV - there are some "people" who *I* <BR>think the world could manage without, but they are all someone's sons and <BR>daughters... more or less.<BR><BR>Obtrav:&nbsp; There's this secret agent who's been 'asked' to kill a couple of <BR>unborn fetuses...<BR><BR>Jeff.<BR>Jeff.<BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: 12 Mar 2001 22:14:03 +0000<BR>From: Paul Campbell &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: latin<BR><BR>On 12 Mar 2001 22:30:54 +0100, Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>&gt; William Lane wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; anyone know what it means?<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit<BR>&gt; &gt; materiari?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?<BR><BR><BR>*ZOT*<BR><BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I might be misinformed, but this is the meaning I know. I don't know the<BR>&gt; language, I learn it by rote.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>&gt; | jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; | ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>&gt; * http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24<BR>http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net<BR>jupiter: 10:13pm up 62 days, 11:53, 4 users, load average: 0.09, 0.26, 0.30<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:28:51 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: latin<BR><BR>I believe it's "How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck <BR>could chuck wood?"<BR><BR>Rob D.<BR><BR>On 12 Mar 2001, at 12:55, William Lane wrote:<BR><BR>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "'traveller@lists.ient.com'" &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Subject:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; latin<BR>Date sent:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:55:46 -0800<BR>Send reply to:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR><BR>&gt; I never studied Latin and well i saw this in the topic of a message<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; anyone know what it means?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit<BR>&gt; materiari?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; for all i know it is an insult. but my curiosity got the better of me.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; heres to hoping it is not offensive.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bill<BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR><BR>Rob<BR>- ---<BR>Rob Davenport 0301 C438875-B&nbsp; zh- so- 713<BR>- ---<BR>If a man is alone in the forest, with no woman around, and he<BR>says something, is he still wrong?<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:37:47 -0600<BR>From: "D. Smart" &lt;dsmart@imagin.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3793<BR><BR>Steve (Bloo) Daniels spake unto us:<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Lookin For...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Try MudConnector.com<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Loren Wiseman wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Can someone help this gentleman?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:36:19 -0500<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;From: "Georges P. Godfrin" &lt;georgesrn@worldnet.att.net&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;To: lkw@io.com<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;Subject: Lookin For...<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;Dear Ms. Wiseman,<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; I am looking for a Traveller based / style / type&nbsp; MUD / MUSH / MOO.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;If you know of any, could you please send the address? Thanks!<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;Georges<BR><BR>I got a hit at the site Bloo mentioned.<BR><BR>It's:<BR>Traveller's Mud (Trav) [Amylaar's 3.2@286 driver, LPMud<BR>2.4.5-tec LIB] <BR><BR>Unfortunately, it's a D&amp;D type game.<BR><BR>David<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:12:11 -0500 (EST)<BR>From: Victor Abraham Delnore &lt;vad9m@unix.mail.virginia.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: latin<BR><BR>Isn't that "How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could<BR>chuck wood"?<BR><BR>- --Abe Delnore<BR><BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>| V. A. Delnore&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; vad9m@virginia.edu&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>| Graduate Student&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (804) 971-8806&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>| Corcoran Department of History&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1821 Jefferson Park Ave #4&nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>| University of Virginia&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Charlottesville VA 22903&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>| Mica mica parva stella miror quaenam sis tam bella&nbsp; (Anon. lyric) |<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:17:12 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller Holy Day<BR><BR>&gt; Well we should have one then.&nbsp; On what day&nbsp; was&nbsp; Traveller&nbsp; first<BR>&gt;&nbsp; published?<BR><BR>What is "published?" The day the ink is dry? The day it comes off the truck <BR>from the printer? The day it is assembled . . . offered for sale . . . first <BR>copy sold? <BR><BR>In any case, I have no clue. <BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:27:52 +1300<BR>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" &lt;a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller Holy Day<BR><BR>On 12 Mar 2001, at 18:17, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Well we should have one then.&nbsp; On what day&nbsp; was&nbsp; Traveller&nbsp; first<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; published?<BR><BR>&gt; What is "published?" The day the ink is dry? The day it comes off the truck<BR>&gt; from the printer? The day it is assembled . . . offered for sale . . . first<BR>&gt; copy sold? <BR><BR>The obvious High Holy Day is Marc Millar's birthday, with lesser days for <BR>certain important GOO's<BR><BR>And the Spirit of Reprisal just has to be the Ethically Challanged Female <BR>Aslan in Comfortable Shoes (on a Near-C Rock, using magic Terran <BR>Confederation Technology).<BR><BR>&gt; In any case, I have no clue. <BR><BR>&lt;Tongue inserted laterally&gt;<BR>You mean GDW didn't document everything when it was creating the holy <BR>scriptures? Just what kind of Mickey Mouse cult is this anyway?<BR>&lt;/Tongue inserted laterally&gt;<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:28:16 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR><BR>This is sort of OT, but not totally.<BR><BR>I'm looking for some information on the enlisted<BR>military ranks for the US, Great Britain and France<BR>in WWII.&nbsp; I've been all through google and there are<BR>some conclusions that I can draw, but some things<BR>are unclear.<BR><BR>For example, it seems that Sergeant First Class (E7)<BR>and First Sergeant (E8) were created later?&nbsp; I don't<BR>find mention of them in the documents that I can<BR>confirm are from WWII era.&nbsp; In fact, I can't confirm<BR>any of the NCO ranks above E6 for the WWII<BR>era, for US or British:<BR><BR>E6 was Master Sergeant (US), Chief Sergeant Major (GB).<BR>Above that, for Great Britain for example, I find both<BR>Regimental Sergeant Major and "Warrant Officer".<BR><BR>Very difficult to get a clear picture.<BR><BR>I'm sure one or several grognard here must be able<BR>to help.&nbsp; I would greatly appreciate it.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:08 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;3AAD5B90.A883C17A@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts, especially Bloo.<BR><BR>US Army Enlisted Ranks (1941)<BR>Chief Warrant Officer<BR>Warrant Officer junior grade<BR>Master Sergeant<BR>First Sergeant<BR>Technical Sergeant<BR>Staff Sergeant<BR>Sergeant<BR>Corporal<BR>Private First Class<BR>Private<BR><BR>US Army Enlisted Ranks (1945)<BR>Chief Warrant Officer<BR>Warrant Officer junior grade<BR>Master Sergeant<BR>First Sergeant<BR>Technical Sergeant<BR>Staff Sergeant<BR>Sergeant<BR>Corporal<BR>Private First Class<BR>Private<BR><BR>Great Britain Army<BR>Warrant Officer Class 1<BR>Warrant Officer Class 2<BR>Warrant Officer Class 3 (No longer exists!)<BR>Colour or Staff Sergeant<BR>Sergeant<BR>Corporal<BR>Lance Corporal<BR>Private<BR><BR>France Army<BR>Adjudant-Chef<BR>Adjudant<BR>Sergent-Chef<BR>Sergent<BR>Caporal-Chef<BR>Caporal<BR>Soldat de 1ere Classe<BR>Soldat de 2eme Classe<BR>Aspirant<BR><BR>Anything else?<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:16:11 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller Holy Day<BR><BR>It's the day on which GDW rested.<BR><BR>So, call it the day when content was delivered to<BR>the printer.<BR><BR>- -bloo<BR><BR>GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Well we should have one then.&nbsp; On what day&nbsp; was&nbsp; Traveller&nbsp; first<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; published?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; What is "published?" The day the ink is dry? The day it comes off the truck<BR>&gt; from the printer? The day it is assembled . . . offered for sale . . . first<BR>&gt; copy sold?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; In any case, I have no clue.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:24:02 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR><BR>Megan Robertson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; In-Reply-To: &lt;3AAD5B90.A883C17A@playnet.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Greetings dear hearts, especially Bloo.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; US Army Enlisted Ranks (1941)<BR>&gt; Chief Warrant Officer<BR>&gt; Warrant Officer junior grade<BR>&gt; Master Sergeant<BR>&gt; First Sergeant<BR>&gt; Technical Sergeant<BR>&gt; Staff Sergeant<BR>&gt; Sergeant<BR>&gt; Corporal<BR>&gt; Private First Class<BR>&gt; Private<BR><BR>Much thanks.&nbsp; May I ask where this comes from?<BR>I haven't seen anything from the era with First<BR>Sergeant in it.&nbsp; Nice to know it was there.<BR><BR>&gt; Great Britain Army<BR>&gt; Warrant Officer Class 1<BR>&gt; Warrant Officer Class 2<BR>&gt; Warrant Officer Class 3 (No longer exists!)<BR>&gt; Colour or Staff Sergeant<BR>&gt; Sergeant<BR>&gt; Corporal<BR>&gt; Lance Corporal<BR>&gt; Private<BR><BR>Most of this is modern isn't it?<BR>Wither the Chief Sergeant Major and the<BR>Regimental Sergeant Major (Warrant Officer<BR>equivalent some of my sources say)?<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:44:11 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Gravitics (was Re: Newbie essays)<BR><BR>Glenn Goffin wrote :-<BR>&lt;several good questions on 'the grav drive experience'&gt;<BR>It really depends on how the dratted things work. If contragravity is<BR>literally 'antigravity', so that grav-drive powered vehicles, etc. behave<BR>like they have negative mass(!) it could get interesting...<BR><BR>&gt; If you're standing beside a hovering air/raft, do you hear anything?<BR>Depends on whether or not horizontal movement requires auxiliary thrust. It<BR>could be as noisy as a modern aircraft (props? turbojets? rockets?).<BR><BR>&gt; Are there any visual phenomena beside or below the vehicle?<BR>Does the gravitic effect affect the column of air under the vehicle, or just<BR>the interaction between the vehicle and the planet?<BR><BR>If the air is disturbed, it could behave like a column of hot air (lighter).<BR>You would get a 'heat haze' rippling effect under the vehicle... just like<BR>'Star Wars', IIRC.<BR><BR>&gt; What if you're under a floating or moving grav vehicle?&nbsp; Do you feel<BR>&gt; pressure or anything at all?<BR>If there is any interaction, watch for tidal effects. There might be a<BR>tendency for you to accelerate towards the ground, for example.<BR><BR>&gt; What if you're inside the vehicle:&nbsp; Do you feel your normal weight?<BR>If the pilot or manufacturer has built that feature in, then yes. Otherwise,<BR>I'd think you would be weightless.<BR><BR>&gt; Do you feel inertia as you change direction or speed (probably not)?<BR>No, if the inertial compensators are working. What? Your air/raft doesn't<BR>have compensators? I'm not going for a ride in that thing.<BR><BR>&gt; Are there any health effects associated with gravitics?<BR>It should be no more dangerous than flight by other means in terms of<BR>overall safety.<BR><BR>&gt; Do gravitic technicians suffer any damage to the parts of their<BR>&gt; bodies exposed to the drives?<BR>Tidal effects, if you want them, could be messy.<BR>&gt; What about users?&nbsp; What about people over whom grav vehicles fly?<BR>Tidal effects fall off with the cube of distance, so it's unlikely.<BR><BR>Given the effects of microgravity on the cytoskeleton, there's a theoretical<BR>risk that large tidal effects could do things to cell function...<BR><BR>"Stop grav drives now! No gravport in our backyard!"<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3794<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xc02.mx.aol.com (rly-xc02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.135]) by air-xc02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:43:44 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xc02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:43:20 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA07184;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:42:41 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:42:18 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id TAA07099<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:42:18 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:42:18 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103130042.TAA07099@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3794<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3795</B></TD></TR>
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<TD>3/13/01 7:20:53 AM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Tuesday, March 13 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3795<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Fast Drug (was : Re: Question about the Imperial military)<BR>Re: Traveller Holy Day<BR>Traveller Holy Day... This Time for sure<BR>Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR>Traveller Holy Day...Almost sorta<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3794<BR>Re: Traveller HHD<BR>Amber Zone Classifications<BR>Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR>MegaTraveller Journal #4<BR>Ok, question for you guys...<BR>Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR>Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR>unbelievable!<BR>Re: Astronomy question<BR>Re: unbelievable!<BR>Re: Amber Zone Classifications<BR>OFFLINE @ home for a couple days<BR>RE: Amber Zone Classifications<BR>RE: Amber Zone Classifications<BR>Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR>Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR>CSM<BR>Re: Amber Zone Classifications<BR>RE: Amber Zone Classifications<BR>Re: Gravitics (was Re: Newbie essays)<BR>Re: Gravitics (was Re: Newbie essays)<BR>Duck!&nbsp; Crowded orbits<BR>Re: Duck! Crowded orbits<BR>Re: CSM<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:44:16 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Fast Drug (was : Re: Question about the Imperial military)<BR><BR>hal@buffnet.net wrote :-<BR>&gt; Interesting question for you: if Fast slows the metabolism of the<BR>&gt; host body, would it not also slow down the metabolism of the bacteria<BR>&gt; as well as viruses that may be present in the body?<BR><BR>If it does, then viruses, being dependent on host machinery to reproduce,<BR>will be slower to spread. Other effects mediated by viral products e.g. cell<BR>lysis, will work if the temperature is right.<BR><BR>Bacteria? Depends on how fast drug works. Unless it is a horrendously dirty<BR>agent (blocks all relevant processes and others on the side) or nanomagic,<BR>it may well have no effect at all.<BR>While there are certain metabolic pathways that all Earthly life has in<BR>common, there are many which are peculiar to certain phyla/orders/species.<BR><BR>&gt; I imagine it is not very popular with the fighter pilots for one<BR>&gt; particular reason - "KINKS" &lt;grin&gt;.&nbsp; After sitting up in a cockpit<BR>&gt; for hours, they are going to feel some serious pains after getting<BR>&gt; out of the cockpit.<BR>The cockpit is likely to be a liquid-filled tank with gelled or padded<BR>interior walls. The pilot's g-tolerance will be greatly increased, allowing<BR>rapid tactical manoeuvre (sustained ~10G if breathing air, ~25G if breathing<BR>liquid).<BR><BR>Hmm... auxiliary rockets? gravitic overdrive?<BR><BR>Pressure sores are much less likely to form with such a womb tank, even on<BR>fast drug as written. You could even alter the tonicity* of the fluid to<BR>prevent skin wrinkling (and float the pilot off of the walls - obviating the<BR>pressure sore problem), with a separate liquid or gas supply for<BR>ventilation.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR>* tonicity = effective osmotic pressure.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:44:37 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller Holy Day<BR><BR>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Well we should have one then.&nbsp; On what day&nbsp; was&nbsp; Traveller&nbsp; first<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; published?<BR>&gt; What is "published?" The day the ink is dry? The day it comes off the truck <BR>&gt; from the printer? The day it is assembled . . . offered for sale . . . first <BR>&gt; copy sold? <BR><BR>I'd go for the date of the Origins Wargame Convention in Staten Island, NY<BR>in 1977, as that's when the first BFB says Traveller was first sold.<BR>Come to think of it, someone should find out what date that was and do<BR>something to commemorate it next year.&nbsp; It'll be the 25th anniversary...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Greg Kettler<BR><BR>"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you<BR>may not actually need an explicit loop exit.&nbsp; The loop will be terminated<BR>automatically at the appropriate moment."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:00:29 -0600<BR>From: "Shadowcat" &lt;res053z0@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Traveller Holy Day... This Time for sure<BR><BR>Quoting from the same article...DOH<BR>Marc says sometime in June of 77<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:04:53 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR><BR>Chris Olsen wrote :-<BR>&gt; (anybody care to speeculate on the effects of powerful electro-<BR>&gt; magnetic-gravitic fields with steep gradients on living tissues?)<BR><BR>Depends on how fast they rise and fall, if they are time-varying, and the<BR>field strength in the tissue of interest.<BR><BR>From an electromag standpoint alone, inducing ventricular fibrillation is<BR>nasty enough (golfers dropping dead in electrical storms missed by lightning<BR>strikes several metres away, for example).<BR><BR>As we crank up the field strength :-<BR>fitting from direct cortical stimulation<BR>muscle contractions - tetany - respiratory arrest<BR>bone fractures, limb loss (burns, muscle 'crush injury', altered blood flow)<BR>blood coagulation ('shorts out')<BR>bone calcination (turns to ash)<BR><BR>It does make CSC-style magnetic shielding for vehicles problematic.<BR><BR>Remember that oxygen is paramagnetic (nitrogen is diamagnetic) too, so air<BR>will be displaced (oxygen into field, nitrogen out).<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:56:53 -0600<BR>From: "Shadowcat" &lt;res053z0@gte.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Traveller Holy Day...Almost sorta<BR><BR>Didnt find the Traveller Holy Day, But quoting an interview with <BR>Marc in Traveller Digest #7, the founding day of GDW itself, is June <BR>22nd, 1973<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:30:21 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3794<BR><BR>In a message dated 12-Mar-01 6:43:44 PM Central Standard Time, <BR>owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:<BR><BR>&gt; Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit<BR>&gt;&nbsp; materiari?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; for all i know it is an insult. but my curiosity got the better of me.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR><BR>It refers (loosely) to woodchucks and their capacity for wood chucking.<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:48:33 -0500<BR>From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller HHD<BR><BR>Loren Wiseman wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;What is "published?" The day the ink is dry? The day it comes off the truck <BR>&gt;from the printer? The day it is assembled . . . offered for sale . . . first <BR>&gt;copy sold? <BR><BR>&gt;In any case, I have no clue. <BR><BR>Marc's intro to FFE001 says Traveller was first sold at Origins '77.&nbsp; Assuming that's true, it narrows things down to a 3-4 day window.&nbsp; Somebody on the list probably knows which days those are...<BR><BR>Also, what Spirit Magic spells does the Cult of Traveller teach?&nbsp; Befuddle for sure (aka Cite Obscure Canon).&nbsp; Other possibilities: Speedart (Near-C Rock), Harmonize (Conform to OTU), Ignite (Flame-war, that is), and Disrupt (Keyboard-kill).<BR><BR>Anyhow...<BR><BR>Trent<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:27:57 -0800<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: Amber Zone Classifications<BR><BR>Hello Folks,<BR>&nbsp; Something piqued my curiosity last Saturday night...<BR><BR>&nbsp; Why aren't *all* of the sword worlds considered to be amber zones<BR>relative to Imperial Citizens?&nbsp; I ask this question because as far as I<BR>know, dueling is not considered to be normal within the confines of the<BR>Imperium, yet supposedly common in Sword worlds and Sword world influenced<BR>worlds (ie border worlds).&nbsp; Any comments?<BR><BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:49:02 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR><BR>- --- "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;This is sort of OT, but not totally.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I'm looking for some information on the enlisted<BR>&gt;military ranks for the US, Great Britain and France<BR>&gt;in WWII<BR>&gt;Above that, for Great Britain for example, I find both<BR>&gt;Regimental Sergeant Major and "Warrant Officer".<BR><BR>I might be able to clear up the Brit Question. Warrant Officer (WO) and Regimental Sergent Major (RSM) both started as Crown Sergent.<BR><BR>The "Warrant" is the King/Queens Warrant and there are WO1's and WO2's. A RSM is a Warrant Officer class 1. A Company Sergent Major (CSM) is a Warrant Officer class 2 or WO1 and WO2 respectively.<BR><BR>WO1's are obviously the "higher" rank and would be the RSM of a Battalion, Brigade, etc. As the Formation increases in size, the RSM is, obviously, more senior.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;Very difficult to get a clear picture.<BR><BR>hope this helps.<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~<BR><BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:05:05 -0500<BR>From: "Hunter Gordon" &lt;trav@RPGRealms.com&gt;<BR>Subject: MegaTraveller Journal #4<BR><BR>Does any have a copy of MegaTraveller Journal #4? I need the information in that issue on Gateway Sector. Please contact me off-list at hunter@RPGRealms.com<BR><BR>Thanks in advance!<BR><BR>Hunter<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:09:33 -0700<BR>From: "A. Batishko" &lt;abatish@utah-inter.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Ok, question for you guys...<BR><BR>A while back, I wrote Space Dock, a tool for windows that allows you to<BR>build Traveller ships with the GURPS modular design system. I even went<BR>through the trouble of getting it licensed with SJ Games. I've been thinking<BR>about doing an update. Does anyone out there still (or ever) use it? If so,<BR>having another interested soul might be enough to get me motivated to do an<BR>update...<BR><BR>Andrew<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:55:18 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR><BR>At 06:24 PM 03/12/01 -0600, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Megan Robertson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Master Sergeant<BR>&gt;&gt; First Sergeant<BR><BR>&gt;Much thanks.&nbsp; May I ask where this comes from?<BR>&gt;I haven't seen anything from the era with First<BR>&gt;Sergeant in it.&nbsp; Nice to know it was there.<BR><BR>First Sergeant is&nbsp; ore of a title than rank.&nbsp; A 1SG is the senior NCO of a<BR>company-sized formation.&nbsp; The actual pay grade is equal to Master Sergeant.<BR>- -- <BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes<BR>reliable internet access difficult to obtain.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - Xaonon, in alt.atheism<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:28:13 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR><BR>Antaine wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I might be able to clear up the Brit Question. Warrant Officer (WO) and Regimental Sergent Major (RSM) both started as Crown Sergent.<BR><BR>There's a rank that needs to be in the Imperial military.<BR>Thanks very much.&nbsp; That helps a lot!<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:20:10 -0700<BR>From: "samir" &lt;samir@chisp.net&gt;<BR>Subject: unbelievable!<BR><BR>Today is history, In the Denver Colorado newspaper, Rocky Mountain News: for<BR>March 12th. .. the Comic Strip by Bill Amend title Foxtrot.<BR><BR>Jason fox appears in the first panel and says. "All your base are belong to<BR>us."<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:35:43 -0800<BR>From: "Bruce Macintosh" &lt;bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Astronomy question<BR><BR>&gt;1) I know the approximate figures for globular clusters, but I'm<BR>&gt;wondering how many stars are in a large open cluster and how<BR>&gt;much closer than average they are?<BR><BR>Open clusters are pretty sparse. A cluster like the Hyades or<BR>Pleiades might have a few thousand stars in a volume of a<BR>thousand cubic parsecs - so 1-3 stars per cubic parsec. Much<BR>sparser than globular clusters.<BR>Bruce<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:51:57 -0600<BR>From: Steve Daniels &lt;stevedaniels@portcaddo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: unbelievable!<BR><BR>this meme is dead.<BR><BR>The local Fox News report did a story on it last night,<BR>which means that *all* of the local Fox News shows<BR>have, or will, run the story soon.<BR><BR>bloo<BR><BR>samir wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Today is history, In the Denver Colorado newspaper, Rocky Mountain News: for<BR>&gt; March 12th. .. the Comic Strip by Bill Amend title Foxtrot.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Jason fox appears in the first panel and says. "All your base are belong to<BR>&gt; us."<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:34:17 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Amber Zone Classifications<BR><BR>- --- hal@buffnet.net<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;Hello Folks,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Something piqued my curiosity last Saturday night...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Why aren't *all* of the sword worlds considered to be amber zones<BR>&gt;relative to Imperial Citizens?<BR><BR>IMTU the Sword Worlds and the Solomani Area still under Solomani control are Amber/Red Travel zones for Imperial citizens as rated by the TAS.<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~&nbsp; <BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:32:16 -0800<BR>From: Jesse DeGraff &lt;jdegraff@pacbell.net&gt;<BR>Subject: OFFLINE @ home for a couple days<BR><BR>I'll be OFFLINE at my home e-mail address for a couple of days while the<BR>contractors **finally** get to work on the fire damage.&nbsp; First up, the<BR>painters'll be in Wednesday &amp; Thursday (if all goes according to plan).<BR>Because of this, tonight was spent and tomorrow night will be spent packing<BR>and moving stuff away from the walls (books, bookcases, books, tables,<BR>books, computers, books, desks, books,&nbsp; couches, books, chairs, books, beds,<BR>books, oh, and did I mention books?)<BR><BR>If you desperately need to get ahold of me, contact me at jedegraf@cisco.com<BR><BR>Jesse<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:45:43 -0800<BR>From: "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Amber Zone Classifications<BR><BR>It would seem to me that the Sword Worlds and Solomani couldn't afford to be<BR>too belligerent. Imperial trade must be fairly lucrative.<BR><BR>Jeffrey Yin<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>- --- hal@buffnet.net<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;Hello Folks,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Something piqued my curiosity last Saturday night...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Why aren't *all* of the sword worlds considered to be amber zones<BR>&gt;relative to Imperial Citizens?<BR><BR>IMTU the Sword Worlds and the Solomani Area still under Solomani control are<BR>Amber/Red Travel zones for Imperial citizens as rated by the TAS.<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:36:19 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Amber Zone Classifications<BR><BR>- --- "Jeff" &lt;jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;It would seem to me that the Sword Worlds and Solomani couldn't afford to be<BR>&gt;too belligerent. Imperial trade must be fairly lucrative.<BR><BR><BR>Yes, but TAS puts an Amber classification on all worlds in general in these regions and Red on worlds close to the border during times of tension. My approach was to keep my players 'edgy'. It also kept an avenue open for me to curtail quasi-legal activities if they were getting out of hand. Because I like running games in the border regions, my players never had a reason to question how Naval vessels seemed to appear 'out of the blue'. <BR><BR>That is IMTU though.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~<BR><BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:44 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR><BR>In-Reply-To: &lt;3AAD68A2.49235373@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Greetings dear hearts.<BR><BR>Sources many and various - my other great passion apart from roleplaying <BR>is the study of uniforms and medals.<BR><BR>These are all WW2 lists, as requested.<BR><BR>In the UK, a Warrant Officer Class 1 and a Warrant Officer Class 2 may <BR>have a different title according to the appointment held. WO2 is usally a <BR>Sergeant Major, he may be a Company Sergeant Major or a QuarterMaster <BR>Sergeant depending on what he's doing. Regimental Sergeant Major is a WO1 <BR>posting, but not every WO1 is a RSM (you only have one per regiment). The <BR>most senior WO1 in the British Army is the 'Academy Sergeant Major' who is <BR>RSM to the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst (UK equivalent to West <BR>Point).<BR><BR>Hugs and kisses,<BR><BR>Mexal.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 01:11:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR><BR>- --- mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;In-Reply-To: &lt;3AAD68A2.49235373@playnet.com&gt;<BR>&gt;Greetings dear hearts.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Sources many and various - my other great passion apart from roleplaying <BR>&gt;is the study of uniforms and medals.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;These are all WW2 lists, as requested.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;In the UK, a Warrant Officer Class 1 and a Warrant Officer Class 2 may <BR>&gt;have a different title according to the appointment held. WO2 is usally a <BR>&gt;Sergeant Major, he may be a Company Sergeant Major or a QuarterMaster <BR>&gt;Sergeant depending on what he's doing. Regimental Sergeant Major is a WO1 <BR>&gt;posting, but not every WO1 is a RSM (you only have one per regiment). The <BR>&gt;most senior WO1 in the British Army is the 'Academy Sergeant Major' who is <BR>&gt;RSM to the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst (UK equivalent to West <BR>&gt;Point).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Hugs and kisses,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mexal.<BR><BR>No Arguements here. However to clarify the above point, usually if there are two WO1's in a Unit, you will find that the WO1 who is NOT the RSM is filling a non-regimental position and will never fill a role as an RSM. Usullay He/She is in the Admin or Q stream. The only a Q or Admin WO1 RSM is usually the Corps RSM position for RAOC (Royal Army Ordinance Corps) unit. These positions are not as numerous as one would expect. Also RQSM (Regimental Quatermaster Sergent Major......) position can be filled by a Staff Sergent (The old Crown Sergent). This rank is denoted by three Chevrons topped by The Crown. A QM or Quarter Master is usually a Captain or some units will have a Major.<BR><BR>Hope it helps. :o)<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:10:16 -0000<BR>From: Matt Bond &lt;MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: CSM<BR><BR>&gt; Most of this is modern isn't it?<BR>&gt; Wither the Chief Sergeant Major and the<BR>&gt; Regimental Sergeant Major (Warrant Officer<BR>&gt; equivalent some of my sources say)?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; bloo<BR><BR>I think you'll find that the C in CSM stands for 'Company', not<BR>'Chief'...<BR><BR>try this link for an interesting article about the British ranks in WWII<BR>and a comparison with their German equivalents...<BR><BR>http://www.britwar.co.uk/features/features1.htm<BR><BR>Matt<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:58:09 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: Amber Zone Classifications<BR><BR>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:27:57 -0800 hal@buffnet.net writes:<BR>&gt; Hello Folks,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Something piqued my curiosity last Saturday night...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Why aren't *all* of the sword worlds considered to be amber zones<BR>&gt; relative to Imperial Citizens?&nbsp; I ask this question because as far <BR>&gt; as I<BR>&gt; know, dueling is not considered to be normal within the confines of <BR>&gt; the<BR>&gt; Imperium, yet supposedly common in Sword worlds and Sword world <BR>&gt; influenced<BR>&gt; worlds (ie border worlds).&nbsp; Any comments?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>Aren't all non-Imperial worlds classified as (at best) Amber Zones?<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:29:47 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Amber Zone Classifications<BR><BR>Perry wrote:<BR>&gt; Aren't all non-Imperial worlds classified as (at best) Amber<BR>&gt; Zones?<BR><BR>Yes, I remember reading somewhere that TAS (who&nbsp; set&nbsp; Amber&nbsp; Zone<BR>status) have a blanket ruling: all non-Imperial worlds should&nbsp; be<BR>considered as Amber Zones by Imperial citizens.&nbsp; However, this is<BR>not reflected in the maps/stats that TAS produce as TAS&nbsp; services<BR>are not restricted to Imperial citizens. (For example, there&nbsp; may<BR>be a Swordie merchant who uses TAS ... most Swordie Worlds&nbsp; would<BR>*not* he an Amber Zone to *him*.)<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:02:19 GMT<BR>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>Subject: Re: Gravitics (was Re: Newbie essays)<BR><BR>"Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt; writes:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Do you feel inertia as you change direction or speed (probably not)?<BR>&gt;No, if the inertial compensators are working. What? Your air/raft doesn't<BR>&gt;have compensators? I'm not going for a ride in that thing.<BR><BR>I expect that "sporty" grav vehicles will have the inertial<BR>compensators turned down a notch or two, so the pilot gets to feel<BR>those Gs when he puts the pedal to the metal...<BR><BR>(maybe it's adjustable, so when you're carrying the shopping balanced<BR>on the back seat, or taking Granny for a spin, you can put the comps<BR>back to full)<BR><BR>If grav plates need to be paired, then presumably open-top air/rafts<BR>won't have them, and the passengers should then feel the effects of<BR>inertia and weightlessness.<BR><BR>Stephen<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:01:23 +0000<BR>From: Phil Kitching &lt;postmark.design@btinternet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Gravitics (was Re: Newbie essays)<BR><BR>Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>&gt;Glenn Goffin wrote :-<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Are there any health effects associated with gravitics?<BR><BR>&gt;It should be no more dangerous than flight by other means in terms of<BR>&gt;overall safety.<BR><BR>Since I'd imagine that most PCs use their ship's air/raft to go jaunting<BR>around the planet whilst their ship is having its annual maintenance...<BR><BR>An unmaintained, open topped vehicle capable of moving in excess of<BR>100km/h in three dimensions, with a computer expert having overridden<BR>the saftey limiters and being controlled* by someone using either<BR>Grav Craft-0 or Pilot-1...<BR><BR>Overall they might be safe. Specific applications could well be very<BR>dangerous.<BR><BR><BR>*in the loosest sense of the word.<BR><BR><BR>Phil Kitching<BR>- --<BR>&nbsp; http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>&nbsp; Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:27:56 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Duck!&nbsp; Crowded orbits<BR><BR>Found this page from a newsletter this morning:<BR><BR>http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/RealTime/JTrack/3D/JTrack3D.html<BR><BR>NASA's 3D satellite and spacecraft tracking app (in Java).<BR><BR>I was slightly surprised at how many objects are in low and geosync <BR>orbit (and it only shows 500 some).&nbsp; I know space is big, but it still <BR>looked crowded to me.&nbsp; <BR><BR>ObTrav's that come to mind - approaching a low tech (5-8) planet that <BR>has put *tons* of stuff in orbit but without adequate tracking makes <BR>getting dirtside a minor adventure in itself;&nbsp; would higher tech worlds <BR>be able to consolidate satellite functions into fewer <BR>satellites/stations and thus clean up local space?&nbsp; <BR><BR>(see <BR>http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/realtime/jtrack/Spacecraft.html<BR>for a 2d version)<BR><BR>Rob<BR>- ---<BR>Rob Davenport 0301 C438875-B&nbsp; 713<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:37:48 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Duck! Crowded orbits<BR><BR>&gt;ObTrav's that come to mind - approaching a low tech (5-8) planet that<BR>&gt;has put *tons* of stuff in orbit but without adequate tracking makes<BR>&gt;getting dirtside a minor adventure in itself;&nbsp; would higher tech worlds<BR>&gt;be able to consolidate satellite functions into fewer<BR>&gt;satellites/stations and thus clean up local space?<BR><BR>Well, with gravitic technology, you wouldn't need satellites in <BR>geosynchronous orbits any more. They're only useful because they stay in one <BR>place, so you could easily substitute them with a grav platform hovering <BR>five, ten, fifteen kilometers up. They'd have less coverage, but not fatally <BR>so.<BR><BR>Radio antennas without the antenna, basically.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:11:52 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: CSM<BR><BR>At 12:10 PM 03/13/01 -0000, you wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; Most of this is modern isn't it?<BR>&gt;&gt; Wither the Chief Sergeant Major and the<BR>&gt;&gt; Regimental Sergeant Major (Warrant Officer<BR>&gt;&gt; equivalent some of my sources say)?<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; bloo<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I think you'll find that the C in CSM stands for 'Company', not<BR>&gt;'Chief'...<BR><BR>In the US Army it is "Command" to note E-9s who are the senior NCO in<BR>battalion or larger units.&nbsp; The only higher enlisted rank is SMA, the<BR>Sergeant Major of the Army.<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3795<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (rly-yg03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.3]) by air-yg03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:20:52 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:20:19 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA41556;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:19:35 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:18:13 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id KAA41469<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:18:13 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:18:13 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103131518.KAA41469@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3795<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Tuesday, March 13 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3796<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR>Re: unbelievable!<BR>Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR>Re: Duck! Crowded orbits<BR>RE: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR>Fiction<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791<BR>Re: latin<BR>Re: Traveller Holy Day<BR>Re: Fast Drug (was : Re: Question about the Imperial military)<BR>Re: Astronomy question<BR>RE: Amber Zone Classifications<BR>Fire, Fusion &amp; Steel II<BR>Re: Amber Zone Classifications<BR>Re: Jump-1 question<BR>re: Amber Zone Classifications<BR>A Question for the List<BR>Re: Vac Suits and air pressure<BR>Hardware Wars<BR>Deck Plans<BR>Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR>Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR>Re: A Question for the List<BR>Re: Deck Plans<BR>[www] 14 Mar 2001 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:13:25 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR><BR>At 09:28 PM 03/12/01 -0600, you wrote:<BR>&gt;There's a rank that needs to be in the Imperial military.<BR>&gt;Thanks very much.&nbsp; That helps a lot!<BR><BR>I wanted to make changes like that, but was told that one of the things<BR>that would be very difficult to get changed would be the ranks.<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:14:23 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: unbelievable!<BR><BR>At 11:51 PM 03/12/01 -0600, you wrote:<BR>&gt;this meme is dead.<BR><BR>It was in Time.&nbsp; Yep.&nbsp; Deader than disco.<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:51:45 -0600<BR>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR><BR>Antaine wrote:<BR><BR>[snip excellent stuff from multiple posters]<BR><BR>&gt; Hope it helps. :o)<BR><BR>It does, greatly.<BR><BR>Another question:&nbsp; What is the difference between a<BR>Colour Sergeant and a Staff Sergeant?<BR><BR>- -bloo<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:14:48 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Duck! Crowded orbits<BR><BR>(Ah, a good cross with the grav effects thread. :)&nbsp; <BR><BR>On 13 Mar 2001, at 9:37, Paul Drye wrote:<BR>&gt; Well, with gravitic technology, you wouldn't need satellites in <BR>&gt; geosynchronous orbits any more. They're only useful because they stay in one<BR>&gt; place, so you could easily substitute them with a grav platform hovering <BR>&gt; five, ten, fifteen kilometers up. They'd have less coverage, but not fatally<BR>&gt; so.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Radio antennas without the antenna, basically.<BR><BR>I suppose you could have satellites at any altitude with minimal CG effort.<BR>The power requirements for a stationary position obviously dimishing with <BR>altitude.&nbsp; And some range could probably be found or reserved to avoid high-<BR>flying aircraft and low-flying suborbitals.&nbsp; <BR><BR>I had been originally thinking, if you've got a highport station, it would <BR>likely do a lot of current satellite's functions but would be close at hand <BR>for repairs, etc.&nbsp;&nbsp; Assuming the station has the coverage and orbit desired.&nbsp; <BR>Maybe smaller stations at different locations to get better/required coverage, <BR>act as relays etc.&nbsp; <BR><BR><BR><BR>Rob<BR>- ---<BR>Rob Davenport 0301 C438875-B&nbsp; 713<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:50:27 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie<BR><BR>&gt;From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Totally agree with kiri 8P<BR><BR>Me too.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.<BR>http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:13:05 -0000<BR>From: "MJ Dougherty" &lt;martinjd@globalnet.co.uk&gt;<BR>Subject: Fiction<BR><BR>With Marc Miller's permission, I'm copying this this here. You may see it in<BR>one or two other places.<BR><BR>Basically, I sent Marc a copy of my novel Behind the Throne a while ago, and<BR>here's what he has to say about it....<BR><BR>"Martin J Dougherty is the latest Traveller writer to turn novelist. His<BR>first novel, Behind the Throne (From Highbridge Press:<BR>(www.highbridgepress.com) is a politico-military tale set in the Fantasy<BR>kingdom of Valdir. While many novelists seem to be unable to tell a complete<BR>story in one volume, Dougherty has managed it admirably with Behind the<BR>Throne.<BR><BR>Behind the Throne is Fantasy, so relevance to Traveller is oblique. That<BR>said, feuding nobles and palace politics are much the same the universe<BR>over, so the book might yield a few ideas in that arena.<BR><BR>Primarily, though, it's just a good fun read. Martin's real-world research<BR>into military history and personal combat comes through in the many battle<BR>and fight scenes, while the memorable characters struggle with a desperate<BR>but plausible situation.<BR><BR>Overall, Behind the Throne is a good read and bodes well for Martin's future<BR>career. It is available on Amazon.com and direct from the publisher."<BR><BR>In fact I've just released another novel - The Eye of Glory. Any of my books<BR>can be ordered through bookstores, Amazon, Barnes &amp; Noble or direct from the<BR>publishers. The relevant URLs are:<BR><BR>Behind the Throne: http://www.highbridgepress.com/<BR>The Eye of Glory: www.hekaforge.com<BR>In Glory Die: http://www.fictionworks.com/ebooks.htm<BR>A Brevet for the Guillotine: http://www.23house.com/<BR><BR>OBTRAV: Not really, unless you count my continued efforts to find a home for<BR>the Great Traveller Novel.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>MJD<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:38:08 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Sounds good to me, John.&nbsp; My concern would be wrinkles: if the suit <BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause the <BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; wearer's skin to pucker.&nbsp; Space-hickeys, basically.&nbsp; So the suit <BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the joints.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; It has always occured to me that the genitalia would be especially sensitive <BR>&gt; to this sort of problem. Special arrangements are no doubt made.<BR><BR>Anyplace the body is concave rather than convex will be a problem. The<BR>typical solutions involve shaped pads held in place by the suit. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:44:32 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: latin<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; On 12 Mar 2001 22:30:54 +0100, Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; William Lane wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; anyone know what it means?<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam <BR>&gt; possit<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; materiari?<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; *ZOT*<BR><BR>That's "Zotz" and be careful where you point that finger, it's loaded!<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:50:30 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller Holy Day<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Well we should have one then.&nbsp; On what day&nbsp; was&nbsp; Traveller&nbsp; first<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; published?<BR><BR>It's *obviously* the Emperor's Birthday. <BR><BR>So, Marc, what's your birthday? :-)<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:57:07 PST<BR>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>Subject: Re: Fast Drug (was : Re: Question about the Imperial military)<BR><BR>In mail you write:<BR><BR>&gt; The cockpit is likely to be a liquid-filled tank with gelled or padded<BR>&gt; interior walls. The pilot's g-tolerance will be greatly increased, allowing<BR>&gt; rapid tactical manoeuvre (sustained ~10G if breathing air, ~25G if breathing<BR>&gt; liquid).<BR><BR>Actually, the pilot's g-tolerance will be well above those figures<BR>*without* the tanks. Because in space, you have to change course with<BR>the main drive. All the "steering jets" do is change the direction the<BR>ship *points* and they can spin a small ship pretty fast without<BR>generating large g-forces.<BR><BR>This means that the pilot is not taking g-loads "head to foot" but<BR>"chest to back". Which means blood pooling is a *much* smaller factor. <BR><BR>- -- <BR>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})<BR>shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;--preferred<BR>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;--last resort<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:34:38 -0800<BR>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>Subject: Re: Astronomy question<BR><BR>"Bruce Macintosh" &lt;bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;1) I know the approximate figures for globular clusters, but I'm<BR>&gt; &gt;wondering how many stars are in a large open cluster and how much<BR>&gt; &gt;closer than average they are?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Open clusters are pretty sparse. A cluster like the Hyades or<BR>&gt; Pleiades might have a few thousand stars in a volume of a<BR>&gt; thousand cubic parsecs - so 1-3 stars per cubic parsec. Much<BR>&gt; sparser than globular clusters.<BR><BR>Actually, I did some more research and the results surprised me.&nbsp; <BR>While there are often more than 1,000 stars per cubic parsec in a <BR>globular cluster, the largest and densest open clusters can be <BR>pretty impressive too.&nbsp; I've run into figures as high as 100 stars per <BR>cubic parsec and found examples of ones that have 10+ stars per <BR>parsec.&nbsp; Far better for travel than our local average of around 2 <BR>parsecs between stars.<BR><BR><BR>- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:31:58 -0400 (EDT)<BR>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Amber Zone Classifications<BR><BR>al writes:<BR>&gt;Hello Folks,<BR>&gt;Something piqued my curiosity last Saturday night...<BR>&gt;Why aren't *all* of the sword worlds considered to be amber zones<BR>&gt;relative to Imperial Citizens?&nbsp; I ask this question because as far as I<BR>&gt;know, dueling is not considered to be normal within the confines of the<BR>&gt;Imperium, yet supposedly common in Sword worlds and Sword world<BR>&gt;influenced worlds (ie border worlds).&nbsp; Any comments?<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; IIRC, the suppliment "The Spinward Marches" specifies that all<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; non-Imperial worlds should be considered Amber Zone for Imperial<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; citizens.<BR><BR>Peez<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:45:47 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: John Fox &lt;jfox@verity.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Fire, Fusion &amp; Steel II<BR><BR>Hello Everyone:<BR>&nbsp; Does anyone know where I can get ahold of a copy of the "Fire, Fusion &amp; Steel <BR>II" book?<BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp; John W. Fox<BR>&nbsp; <BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:19:45 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: Amber Zone Classifications<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Aren't all non-Imperial worlds classified as (at best) Amber<BR>&gt; &gt; Zones?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Yes, I remember reading somewhere that TAS (who&nbsp; set&nbsp; Amber&nbsp; Zone<BR>&gt; status) have a blanket ruling: all non-Imperial worlds should&nbsp; be<BR>&gt; considered as Amber Zones by Imperial citizens.&nbsp; However, this is<BR>&gt; not reflected in the maps/stats that TAS produce as TAS&nbsp; services<BR>&gt; are not restricted to Imperial citizens. (For example, there&nbsp; may<BR>&gt; be a Swordie merchant who uses TAS ... most Swordie Worlds&nbsp; would<BR>&gt; *not* he an Amber Zone to *him*.)<BR><BR>Yeah, but the Swordie might automatically consider all *Imperial* worlds<BR>to be Amber...<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:28:21 -0500<BR>From: knightsky@juno.com<BR>Subject: Re: Jump-1 question<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Thanks for the info.&nbsp; I'll probably modify this to where the costs <BR>&gt;&gt; are modified relative to whatever world/economy they're dealing with<BR>at <BR>&gt;&gt; the moment.&nbsp; Give the ECMs a chnce to 'buy low, sell high' as it were.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; *nods* But remember 'If the money is this easy, why isnt everybody <BR>&gt; doing it ?' - if you see an easy profit <BR>&gt; opportunitiy, there should be 3-5 other Free Traders/ECMs trying to <BR>&gt; cut the same deal. Who all have <BR>&gt; to be got rid of, one way or another ...<BR><BR>Well, I suspect that other ECMs *are* doing this.&nbsp; That's how they make a<BR>profit (most NPC ECMs don't supplement their incomes with "adventuring").<BR>The trick for an indy Merchant ship is to find a resource that you can<BR>resell at a profit that isn't so big as to attract the MegaCorps, but<BR>isn't so small as to quickly dry up.<BR><BR>Of course, if all sorts of merchants are buying a product, then the price<BR>is going to go up, even if it is 'outdated' tech.&nbsp; Supply &amp; demand, after<BR>all.&nbsp; Also, some tech probably won't be reduced in price; a 9mm pistol<BR>may be technologivcally dwarfed by a laser rifle, but it still has enough<BR>uses that it will probably sell for close to full price.<BR><BR>And if a PC goes to a high TL world hoping to get lower TL stuff cheap,<BR>they may be in for a rude suprise... "Jump-1 drives?&nbsp; Are you kidding? <BR>We sold the last of those antiques decades ago!"<BR><BR><BR>Perry<BR>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________________________________<BR>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!<BR>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!<BR>Join Juno today!&nbsp; For your FREE software, visit:<BR>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:45:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: Amber Zone Classifications<BR><BR>&gt;From: hal@buffnet.net<BR><BR>&gt;&nbsp; Why aren't *all* of the sword worlds considered to be amber zones<BR>&gt;relative to Imperial Citizens?&nbsp; I ask this question because as far as I<BR>&gt;know, dueling is not considered to be normal within the confines of the<BR>&gt;Imperium, yet supposedly common in Sword worlds and Sword world<BR>influenced<BR>&gt;worlds (ie border worlds).&nbsp; Any comments?<BR><BR>In an Imperium that permits its members to go to war with one another, a<BR>few duels aren't going to raise much fuss.&nbsp; Duelling is a matter of local<BR>law, anyway.&nbsp; <BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.<BR>http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:48:19 -0500<BR>From: "Daniel Phelps" &lt;phelpsd@gate.net&gt;<BR>Subject: A Question for the List<BR><BR>I was looking thru one of my boxes of Traveller stuff, didn't know that I<BR>had two editions of High Guard, when I ran across something that I<BR>completely don't remember .&nbsp; Does anyone know anything about "Far Away; The<BR>Magazine of Speculative Gaming"?&nbsp; I seem to have volume #1 but no others.<BR><BR>Dan<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:19:14 <BR>From: "John Lambert" &lt;hovtej@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Vac Suits and air pressure<BR><BR>The older members of the list may have heard this story before.<BR><BR>As part of my Air Force flight training ("non-rated crewman"), I went <BR>through an explosive decompression as part of my altitude chamber <BR>orientation. They pumped the main chamber down to around 45,000 ft altitude, <BR>then popped a large valve to the airlock where I was standing with some <BR>others. We were all wearing only flight suits. In a few seconds we went from <BR>near sea level to around 35,000 ft equivalent altitude, around 20% normal <BR>(sea level) atmospheric pressure, about 150 mm Hg. IIRC, this about the <BR>limit before you can develop the bends. This is not vacuum, but close. No <BR>one suffered from decompression sickness (DCS), but I did develop a bad ear <BR>infection from the rapid pressure change.<BR><BR>The objective of the exercise was to show us the effects of an explosive <BR>decompression (there is a very loud noise, a fog forms, and you feel like <BR>you were punched in the chest) and to give us a chance to have to don our <BR>oxygen masks under "emergency" conditions. We knew the explosive <BR>decompression was coming and where our oxygen masks were located. We were <BR>all able to locate, don, and activate the masks within one minute or so with <BR>no problems. We had previously gone above 35,000 ft more slowly (in ten to <BR>fifteen minutes) and removed our masks to see what our individual symptoms <BR>were and to become familiar with the equipment. At these altitudes you have <BR>to "pressure breathe" to get air into your lungs. The human body is almost <BR>airtight. A fly had come into the chamber with us and was not able to get <BR>off the ground at these altitudes.<BR><BR>Well trained Traveller crewmen would know where the emergency equipment is <BR>located and how to use it. They should be able to survive an explosive <BR>decompression with minimal damage unless injured. A passenger might not be <BR>so well prepared and could have serious problems if no assistance was <BR>available. Perhaps an emergency spacesuit could also be overpressurized for <BR>use as an individual decompression chamber.<BR><BR>DCS is a serious problem, but it does not kill you nearly as quickly as <BR>breathing vacuum. I seem to recall some discussions about using gases other <BR>than nitrogen (argon?) in undersea work to avoid DCS problems (heavier gases <BR>than helium are needed to avoid the Donald Duck voice).<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>&gt;Rob O'Connor sez,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Yep, the bends or decompression sickness (DCS) is the big concern.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Decompression regime :-<BR>&gt;&gt;1 hour breathing 100% oxygen at 760mmHg pressure (1 atmosphere)<BR>&gt;&gt;Depressurisation from 760 -&gt; 500mmHg, hold for 12 hours<BR>&gt;&gt;Depressurisation from 500 -&gt; 200mmHg (another 40 minutes) -&gt; EVA<BR>&gt;&gt;This carries a 2% chance of decompression sickness per person-day of EVA.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Wow! Takes a lot longer than I thought.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;I would rule that in the case of an explosive decompression, a character <BR>&gt;&gt;has<BR>&gt;&gt;(2 X End) seconds before losing consciousness.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;--<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Glenn Grant&nbsp; &lt;neo@total.net&gt;<BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:29:13 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan &lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Hardware Wars<BR><BR>I found my xerox copies of these articles last night while working on my<BR>novel, which also used to be the setting of my old TU.&nbsp; If anyone wants to<BR>read them I could make copies for postage and copying.<BR><BR>Kiri<BR><BR>******************************************************************************<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:38:37 -0600<BR>From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Deck Plans<BR><BR>I know it has been mentioned before, but does someone out there have <BR>symbols and engines drawn up for use in deck plans.&nbsp; I am looking for some <BR>for use with Adobe Illustrator.<BR><BR>Jimmy Simpson<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>"The avalanche has already started.<BR>It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 01:00:34 +0100<BR>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen &lt;rancke@diku.dk&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military<BR><BR>Peter Trevor writes:<BR><BR>&gt;The Imperium's&nbsp; navy&nbsp; has&nbsp; three&nbsp; tiers.&nbsp; The&nbsp; top&nbsp; tier&nbsp; is&nbsp; the<BR>&gt;"Imperial&nbsp; Navy",&nbsp; below&nbsp; that&nbsp; are&nbsp; numerous&nbsp; subsector&nbsp;&nbsp; navies<BR>&gt;(sometimes called Colonial&nbsp; Navies),&nbsp; and&nbsp; below&nbsp; that&nbsp; are&nbsp; many<BR>&gt;planetary navies.<BR><BR>Though the planetary navies aren't strictly speaking Imperial. My guess is,<BR>however, that they are automatically Imperial reserves and can be called up by<BR>the Imperium at will. Alternatively each treaty of annexation/joining set out<BR>the conditions under which the planetary forces must be made available for the<BR>Imperium.<BR><BR>&gt;Colonial Navies don't always have&nbsp; top-of-the-line ships but have sufficient<BR>&gt;number to be a significant force.<BR><BR>There's an unresolved discrepancy between canonical descriptions of colonial<BR>navies and the canonical description of how they are raised and funded. The<BR>following is my take on how to explain this discrepancy and is therefor not<BR>canon (Note: TLs are GT TLs).<BR><BR>The typical colonial navy<BR>- -------------------------<BR>Although the colonial navies are just as much Imperial organisations<BR>as the Imperial Navy and transfers back and forth between them is very<BR>common, they are _separate_ organisations. Imperial military taxes are<BR>paid by individual worlds to their subsector duke. The duke passes along half<BR>to his sector duke and retains the other half. The subsector duke uses his<BR>cut to pay for his subsector forces: the [Name of Duchy] Colonial Navy,<BR>Colonial Army, and Colonial Marines.<BR><BR>In theory each subsector in the Imperium has a duke and a colonial navy<BR>roughly the size of an average Imperial fleet. Since most subsector navies<BR>have just the one fleet, the terms 'subsector/colonial navy' and<BR>'subsector/colonial fleet' are often used interchangably, but this is not<BR>correct. In practice some subsectors lack the population to rate a duke and<BR>the economic strength to support credible subsector forces. In these cases<BR>the subsector usually belongs to a neighboring duke who will often maintain<BR>two fleets, one in each subsector. An example is the Duchy of Regina Navy<BR>which consists of two fleets, the 1156th in Regina and the 1264th in Jewell.<BR>Additionally a few subsector navies in the Imperial core are so big that for<BR>convenience they are split into two fleets, like the Duchy of Saregon Navy<BR>which consists of the 1021th and the 1112th.<BR><BR>Colonial navies are often percieved as comic-opera outfits composed<BR>exclusively of low-tech ships and worn-out navy hand-me-downs crewed by<BR>inexpert weekend warriors. There is a small amount of truth in this, but<BR>not much. Colonial crew is usually less experienced overall than the IN,<BR>mostly due to the IN's habit of recruiting the cream of the colonial navies,<BR>but the difference in efficiency ratings is usually only a few percent as<BR>there are transfers the other way when experienced officers and ratings<BR>move back to their local navies after a period in the IN, either because<BR>they want to settle down and have families or because the colonial navies <BR>offer significant promotions to personnel with IN experience.<BR><BR>As for the ships, some colonial navies _are_ mostly composed of old IN<BR>retirees. Until Strouden reached TL 12 a few years ago, the Duchy of Lunion<BR>Navy was happy to buy such ships, because the best that could be build<BR>locally was TL 11. The Duchy of Regina Navy is even willing to take obsolete<BR>TL 11 IN ships because the best they can produce locally is TL 10. But navies<BR>with big TL 12 shipyards in their own subsectors mostly consist of brand new,<BR>top-of-the-line ships. Which doesn't prevent IN crewmen from poking fun at<BR>them.<BR>- ---------------------------------<BR><BR>&gt;Planetary navies are usually smaller and usually don't have jump capability<BR>&gt;(they are&nbsp; primarily&nbsp; for&nbsp; a&nbsp; world's&nbsp; defence).<BR><BR>The character generation system allows a character to join a planetary navy and<BR>still learn jump-related skills with no restrictions. It is propable that most<BR>planetary navies have _some_ jump-capable vessels. As for their size, their<BR>combined&nbsp; budgets are 70% of the total military budget with the remaining 30%<BR>divided equally between the subsector navies and the regular IN, so they should<BR>be much larger in toto. Much of that will be in the form of deep meson sites<BR>and orbital fortresses, though.<BR><BR>&gt;Batrons&nbsp; can&nbsp; be&nbsp; made&nbsp; of&nbsp; battleships&nbsp; (aka&nbsp; dreadnaughts)&nbsp;&nbsp; or<BR>&gt;battleriders.<BR><BR>Battleriders are usually equal in size to cruisers. While they are ton-for-ton<BR>tougher than ships of equivalent size, I doubt a 30,000 T battlerider could<BR>stand in battle against an equivalent number of 300,000 T battleships. So a<BR>BatRon is propably more often made of of carriers than of riders (Even though<BR>the one canonical example we have claims to be one carrier with 7 riders).<BR><BR><BR>Hans<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:07:30 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR><BR>- --- "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" &lt;sdaniels@playnet.com&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Another question:&nbsp; What is the difference between a<BR>&gt;Colour Sergeant and a Staff Sergeant?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;-bloo<BR><BR>A Colour Sgt. was responsible for the King/Queen's Colours and/or Regimental Colours from the Age when they were carried into battle. Same rank as a 'Staff Sgt. Different duties. In the Highland Regiments a Colour Sgt would be responsible for the Piping during battle. I hear they gave up having a piper pipe them to battle as it draws snipers. &lt;weg&gt;<BR><BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:07:48 -0500<BR>From: "Paul Drye" &lt;p_drye@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: A Question for the List<BR><BR>&gt;Does anyone know anything about "Far Away; The Magazine of Speculative <BR>&gt;Gaming"?&nbsp; I seem to have volume #1 but no others.<BR><BR>I have a copy of #1 as well, and I never saw any others. Too bad, too -- the <BR>Keith brothers seemed to be the minds behind their Traveller coverage.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul Drye<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________________<BR>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:22:25 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Deck Plans<BR><BR>Jimmy Simpson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I know it has been mentioned before, but does someone out there have <BR>&gt; symbols and engines drawn up for use in deck plans.&nbsp; I am looking for <BR>&gt; some for use with Adobe Illustrator.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Jimmy Simpson<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; "The avalanche has already started.<BR>&gt; It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR><BR>Yeah, if you can translate them there are some MacDraw templates and a <BR>pict file with all of them in it it at:<BR><BR>http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/deckplans.html<BR><BR>Illustrator _ought_ to import vector pict files...These arent' mine, <BR>they're Zane Healy's though.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:22:54 -0500<BR>From: Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>Subject: [www] 14 Mar 2001 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR><BR>Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has<BR>posted its most recent update (dated 4 March; we had problems posting to<BR>the server) to http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and<BR>http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/.&nbsp; <BR><BR>In this update:<BR><BR>- Chapter thirteen of _The_Hostile_Stars_, Fred Ramen's ongoing serial<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; story, has been posted to Raconteur's Rest. <BR><BR>- Three new website reviews can be found in LinkLooks<BR><BR>- The Published Products list has been updated to reflect the recent<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; release of the next of the Classic Reprints.<BR><BR>- Minor formatting fixups to several articles throughout the site.<BR><BR>* Please note that "Default.htm" is no longer required when accessing<BR>* Freelance Traveller's home page - Shortcuts using it will still work, for<BR>* a time, but you should update all references as soon as possible.<BR><BR>Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance<BR>Traveller.&nbsp; Please write to freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all<BR>of them, as we are in the process of reconfiguring the forms, and they may<BR>be temporarily disabled.&nbsp; Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of<BR>Traveller fans both to visit our site and justify our existence, and to<BR>write for us, making our existence possible.<BR><BR>Freelance Traveller is mirrored at http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz.<BR><BR>Freelance Traveller wishes to extend its thanks and appreciation to The<BR>Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com) and to Executive Network<BR>Information Systems (http://www.execnet.com) for hosting services. Without<BR>organizations willing to cooperate with Freelance Traveller's ever-growing<BR>needs, we would be unable to bring you the articles and other resources<BR>that have made Freelance Traveller one of the premier Traveller sites on<BR>the 'net.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture <BR>Enterprises, 1977-2000.&nbsp; Use of the trademark in <BR>this notice and in the referenced materials is not <BR>intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.<BR><BR>- --<BR>Jeff Zeitlin, Editor<BR>Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource<BR>http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller<BR>http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm<BR>freelancetraveller@yahoo.com<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3796<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (rly-xd04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.169]) by air-xd03.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:27:17 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:26:46 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA65398;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:26:01 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:24:57 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id TAA65339<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:24:57 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:24:57 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103140024.TAA65339@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3796<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Wednesday, March 14 2001&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3797<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>Re: [TML] Traveller Holy Day<BR>Re: CSM<BR>Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR>RE: A Question for the List<BR>re: A Question for the List<BR>Re: Latin<BR>Re: latin<BR>RE: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR>Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3795<BR>Far &amp; Away Vol. 1<BR>The Carrillian Assembly in Reaver's Deep<BR>Re: A Question for the List<BR>Re: Amber Zone Classifications<BR>RE: Far &amp; Away Vol. 1<BR>Re: latin<BR>Re: Vac Suits and air pressure<BR>Re: Fast Drug (was : Re: Question about the Imperial military)<BR>www.SJGames com is getting slooooow....<BR>Re: Question on cloning...<BR>Getting too old for this caper<BR>Re: www.SJGames com is getting slooooow....<BR>RE: Amber Zone Classifications<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:21:08 -0500<BR>From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" &lt;caraig@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller Holy Day<BR><BR>&gt;Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:44:37 -0600 (CST)<BR>&gt;From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: Traveller Holy Day<BR><BR>&gt;I'd go for the date of the Origins Wargame Convention in Staten Island, NY<BR>&gt;in 1977, as that's when the first BFB says Traveller was first sold.<BR>&gt;Come to think of it, someone should find out what date that was and do<BR>&gt;something to commemorate it next year.&nbsp; It'll be the 25th anniversary...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Greg Kettler<BR><BR>*blinks* Whoa!&nbsp; Here I am, living on Staten Island, and I didn't even know <BR>it was anything close to a Traveller Mecca!&nbsp; I feel... a lot better about <BR>being on Staten Island, now. =)<BR><BR>Be great if they still held Origins here.&nbsp; I wouldn't have to look at the <BR>expense it would take to attend and cringe. =)<BR><BR>Cheers<BR><BR><BR>- ---<BR>==============================================================<BR>Jonathan McDermott&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@<BR>- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; "Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -Steve Wozniak<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:26:59 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: CSM<BR><BR>- --- Matt Bond &lt;MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; Most of this is modern isn't it?<BR>&gt;&gt; Wither the Chief Sergeant Major and the<BR>&gt;&gt; Regimental Sergeant Major (Warrant Officer<BR>&gt;&gt; equivalent some of my sources say)?<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; bloo<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I think you'll find that the C in CSM stands for 'Company', not<BR>&gt;'Chief'...<BR><BR>Yes Matt, you are correct. CSM = Company Sgt. Maj. and RSM = Regimental Sgt. Maj.<BR><BR>They are both Warrant Officers today but there are now 2 classes of WO...WO1 (higher rank) and WO2.<BR><BR>They have never been the same rank even before the issuing of the King/Queen's Warrant. A CSM looks after a Company and an RSM looks after a Battalion Formation or higher.<BR><BR>The Duties of an RSM is Dress, Discipline and, Unit History. A CSM has similar duties but is also the "johnny on the spot" when the ballooon goes up...he handles distribution of ammo, co-ords Cas-evacs with the Medic and many more tasks within the company on ops freeing up the OC (Officer Commanding) to do his job of keeping a handle on the disposition of his Coy. with regard the En. CSM is also effectively Coy 3IC if the Skipper and the 2IC buy it. <BR><BR>Maybe Mexal can share her excellent insight and expand on this as I operate from memory alone and maybe also help with the Origins of Colour Sgt. as well?<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:28:26 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks<BR><BR>&gt;From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;I wanted to make changes like that, but was told that one of the things<BR>&gt;that would be very difficult to get changed would be the ranks.<BR><BR>Well, things change over time.&nbsp; Maybe at some point in the 1100+ years of<BR>the Third Imperium, there was a Regimental Sergeant Major rank or whatever<BR>else is desired.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.<BR>http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:31:39 -0500<BR>From: "C Michael" &lt;swordworlder@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: A Question for the List<BR><BR>I have issue #4, or what was to have been an issue. It is a collection of<BR>unpublished work. I assume that issues 2 &amp; 3 exist, but I have never seen<BR>them. Jim Vassilakos would be the one to ask. His web site seems to indicate<BR>that he has a copy of issue #2.<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>&gt;Does anyone know anything about "Far Away; The Magazine of Speculative<BR>&gt;Gaming"?&nbsp; I seem to have volume #1 but no others.<BR><BR>I have a copy of #1 as well, and I never saw any others. Too bad, too -- the<BR>Keith brothers seemed to be the minds behind their Traveller coverage.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:32:05 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>Subject: re: A Question for the List<BR><BR>&gt;From: "Daniel Phelps" &lt;phelpsd@gate.net&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;Does anyone know anything about "Far Away; The Magazine of Speculative<BR>&gt;Gaming"?&nbsp; I seem to have volume #1 but no others.<BR><BR>I think it was called "Far and Away."&nbsp; I think I have issues 1 and 2.&nbsp; I<BR>bought them (used for $1 each, as I recall) because I liked the cover art.<BR>I don't remember what's in them.<BR><BR>- --Glenn<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.<BR>http://auctions.yahoo.com/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:07:50 -0500<BR>From: Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Latin<BR><BR>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:42:18 -0500 (EST), William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;I never studied Latin and well i saw this in the topic of a message<BR><BR>&gt;anyone know what it means?<BR><BR>&gt;Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit<BR>&gt;materiari?<BR><BR>&gt;for all i know it is an insult. but my curiosity got the better of me.<BR><BR>&gt;heres to hoping it is not offensive.<BR><BR>Not insulting, but there's at least one newsgroup that would consider it<BR>offensive.<BR><BR>"How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?"<BR><BR>- --<BR>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:11:10 -0500<BR>From: Jeff Zeitlin &lt;jzeitlin@cyburban.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: latin<BR><BR>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:42:18 -0500 (EST), Paul Campbell<BR>&lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;On 12 Mar 2001 22:30:54 +0100, Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; William Lane wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; anyone know what it means?<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; materiari?<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?<BR><BR><BR>&gt;*ZOT*<BR><BR><BR>*SPLORT*<BR><BR>Nice to know I'm not the only RHODent here...<BR>- --<BR>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:20:39 -0800<BR>From: "Antony Farrell" &lt;Skaran@bigpond.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR><BR>Looking at my FFS1 TL11 Dragonfly class air/raft I wouldn't want to stand<BR>behind it as it has a HEPlaR Thruster generating 2 tons of thrust. Some of<BR>my other grav vehicles used turbo jets, and many of them used turbines to<BR>produce power. I think this would make them quite noisy. Certainly I would<BR>restrict them from built up areas.<BR><BR>Traffic offence, Sonic emissions above a proscribed level.<BR>The HePlaR thruster on many grav vehicles is particularly frightening.<BR><BR>Antony<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:32:47 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Anthony Jackson &lt;ajackson@molly.iii.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR><BR>Antony Farrell writes:<BR>&gt; The HePlaR thruster on many grav vehicles is particularly frightening.<BR><BR>Hm..as I recall the smallest HEPlaR thruster was 100 kN, which at an exhaust<BR>velocity of 4e7 meters/second is 2e12 watts, or about the equivalent of a<BR>0.5 kiloton nuclear weapon every second.&nbsp; Fun ;)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:44:32 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3795<BR><BR>&gt; Didnt find the Traveller Holy Day, But quoting an interview with <BR>&gt;&nbsp; Marc in Traveller Digest #7, the founding day of GDW itself, is June <BR>&gt;&nbsp; 22nd, 1973<BR><BR>Fiat. Chosen because June 22 1941 was the day the Germans invaded the USSR, <BR>and the first GDW game was a boardgame of that invasion (Drang Nach Osten). <BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:45:30 -0500<BR>From: "Daniel Phelps" &lt;phelpsd@gate.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Far &amp; Away Vol. 1<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Glenn Goffin &lt;gmgoffin@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>To: traveller mailing aa list &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:32 PM<BR>Subject: re: A Question for the List<BR><BR><BR>Was written:<BR><BR>&gt;I think it was called "Far and Away."&nbsp; I think I have issues 1 and 2.&nbsp; I<BR>&gt;bought them (used for $1 each, as I recall) because I liked the cover art.<BR>&gt; I don't remember what's in them.<BR><BR><BR>You are right the inside does say Far and Away.&nbsp;&nbsp; The cover is a bit more<BR>ambigous and the cover art is quite nice.&nbsp; Two Megatraveller articles were<BR>written by J Andrew Keith, "Planetfall" and "The Compleat Starport".<BR>William H Keith, Jr. wrote the "You are There Column" titled "Special<BR>Delivery".<BR><BR>Turned up a copy of "Space Opera"&nbsp; while I was rooting around,&nbsp; I remember<BR>looking at it after I bought it but never played it.&nbsp; I also found my copy<BR>of D&amp;D's Deities and Demigods with the Cthulhu, Melnibonean and Nehwon<BR>Mythos as well as near pristine copies of the little D&amp;D book Supplement IV<BR>Gods, Demi-gods and Heroes and Bushido by Phoenix Games.<BR><BR>I've got to find the box&nbsp; with the Fasa Ship Plans.&nbsp; I seem to remember<BR>there being Hotel and Space Station plans and a copy of Boot Hill in it as<BR>well.&nbsp; Its either around here somewhere or in storage.<BR><BR>Regards Traveller would it be appropriate to post a list somewhere of what<BR>CT and Megatraveller publications I have in case someone wants me to look<BR>something up/check a reference? My CT collection is pretty strong.<BR><BR>Dan<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:49:24 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: The Carrillian Assembly in Reaver's Deep<BR><BR>On 03/13/01 at 09:24 PM,&nbsp; eris@pcola.gulf.net said:<BR><BR>Here's a write up for the Carrillian Assembly in Reavers' Deep as<BR>it exists IMTU as of 1119.&nbsp; I drew on information I found in<BR>various sources (1), but, as always, extended things as I desired. <BR>I hope some of you may find it useful and/or entertaining.<BR><BR>Eris<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; -------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The Carrillian Assembly (1119)<BR><BR>The Carrillian Assembly is the second largest human-dominated<BR>independent political state in the Reavers' Deep Sector.&nbsp; The<BR>Carrillian Assembly is spread across parts of four subsectors and<BR>is composed of 21 member systems.&nbsp; One system, Yarhfahl, is a<BR>client of the Assembly, but is not an active member.<BR><BR>Drexilthar Subsector<BR>Sarrad 2129<BR>Yarhfahl 2228 (client)<BR>Datinar 2230<BR>Ildrissar 2326 <BR>CARRILL 2330<BR>Lindritar 2429<BR><BR>Urlaqqash Subsector<BR>Yaggoth 2530<BR>Boran 2628<BR>Syreon 2730<BR>Lyresse 2828<BR>Rothman 2829<BR><BR>Drinsaar Subsector<BR>Lanixohn 2033<BR>Kaihadd 2034<BR>Taraan 2133<BR>Sian 2234<BR>Iskara 2431<BR>Santol 2433<BR><BR>Fahinar Subsector<BR>Istieru 2532<BR>Faranim 2632<BR>Astorga 2633<BR>Lanisteg 2732<BR>Gramarye 2932<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>The Carrillian Assembly was formed in 519, when a number of worlds<BR>in the Drexilthar and Fahlnar subsectors fought wars which<BR>threatened to plunge the region into a general interstellar war.<BR>The Imperium, wishing to maintain this area as a buffer between<BR>themselves and the Aslan, stepped in and "suggested" they<BR>peacefully settle their differences.&nbsp; A series of conferences held<BR>in the quiet backwater Carrill system (specifically, Blair Rock,<BR>Carrillian Belt, 2330) led to an agreement to form a federation of<BR>systems for the regulation of trade, economic coordination and<BR>common defense.&nbsp; The Articles of Assembly were signed later that<BR>year, and designated the Belt as the capital of the new federation. <BR>Blair Rock was renamed Capital and is the home of the Assembly<BR>goverment.&nbsp; In the past 600 years, Carrill has grown from that<BR>sleepy backwater into one of the most populous and powerful systems<BR>of the Assembly.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>The Assembly has been a stablizing influence on the trailing half<BR>of the Deep for over 500 years.&nbsp; Throughout most of that time the<BR>Assembly has concentrated on fostering trade and progress in the<BR>region, has seldom acted outside its borders, nor has it sought to<BR>greatly expand its sphere of influence.<BR><BR>In the 1090's the Progressive Party came under the control of a<BR>clique of young turks that began to agitate for the expansion of<BR>the Assembly into surrounding territories.&nbsp; An attempted coup by<BR>young naval officers in 1103 was supressed, but only after<BR>President Collin had been assassinated. Temporary martial law was<BR>declared and Admiral Juzark took control of Capital.&nbsp; <BR><BR>During this crisis, a compromise agreement among the Navy, the<BR>Conservative Pary and the Progressive Party was worked out whereby<BR>Admiral Juzark stepped down and High Justice Daldreem, Chief<BR>Justice of the Assembly Supreme Court, was put into power as<BR>Assembly President.&nbsp; It was expected that Daldreem would quickly<BR>take the Assembly back to a representative democracy, but that has<BR>not happened.<BR><BR>Daldreem has proven to be a charismatic, but ruthless, leader who,<BR>under various constitutional pretexts has extended the state of<BR>martial law through the present.&nbsp; Daldreem has embarked on a<BR>campaign of expansion, popular with the Progessive Party, and is<BR>centralizing Assembly authority, popular with the Conservative<BR>Pary. Although the Liberal and Alaltin Democarats protested<BR>Daldreem's policies vigorously in the beginning they have mostly<BR>been silenced. Today, Daldreem and his cronies dominate the<BR>Assembly government completely.<BR><BR>In 1109, a revolt against the Assembly began on Ildrissar after the<BR>notorious Starport Massacre.&nbsp; Ildrissarians were protesting the<BR>enforcment of new Assembly tarrifs on internal trade when a<BR>contingent of Assembly Marines opened fire on the demonstrators<BR>causing the death of 314.&nbsp; Daldreem used the protest and subsequent<BR>strikes, workstopages and withholding of tarrifs to mobilize the<BR>Assembly Navy and launch an invasion of Ildrissar.&nbsp; The situation<BR>on Ildrissar is still in flux, with Carrill controlling the<BR>Starport and several cities and the Ildrissarian Patriotic Front<BR>controlling the rest of the planet.<BR><BR>In 1110, Halley Libidon (leader of the Liberal Party), called for a<BR>"Vote of Confidence" on Daldreem's rule by the Assembly Senate.&nbsp; A<BR>series of explosions and assassinations swept through Capital and<BR>Daldreem disolved the Senate and sent the representatives home to<BR>"protect our leaders from Ildrissarian terrorists."&nbsp; Since 1110<BR>Libidon has travelled throughout the region seeking support for the<BR>return of democracy to the Assembly.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Halley Libidon was charged with giving aid and comfort to<BR>Ildrissarian rebels, tried in abstencia and convicted as a traitor<BR>in 1113.&nbsp; He continues to be uncaptured, but the bounty on his head<BR>has grown to 200,000 crimps.<BR><BR>The media was brought under control of the Office of Public<BR>Information in 1114.&nbsp; Two days after this event, all but three<BR>media outlets in the Carrillian Belt were officially shut down. <BR>Over the last few years media outlets in member systems have come<BR>under increasing pressure to conform to dictates of the OPI.<BR><BR>Between 1117 and 1119, the Carrillian Navy undertook several<BR>expeditions against systems to trailing.&nbsp; These systems were said<BR>to be the bases of raiders and reavers in league with the Solomani<BR>Confederation.&nbsp; After a Solomani squadron defeated the 3rd<BR>Carrillian Expeditionary Force at Teyl (3134) the CA Navy has<BR>pulled back to regroup.&nbsp; The official word is that the raiders have<BR>been stopped, and so have the expeditions.<BR><BR>Although it is officially denied, TAS reports indicate acts of<BR>rebellion began to take place on Lanizohn in 1118.&nbsp; Officially,<BR>these incidents have been written off as accidents and criminal<BR>acts.<BR><BR>TAS has declared all of the Carrillian Assembly Amber.&nbsp; Ildrissar<BR>and Lanizohn have been given Red Zone designations.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; -------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>(1) I drew basic information from:<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; _A Pilot's Guid to Drexilthar Subsector_, by J. Andrew Keith;<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; _The Reaver's Deep Sector Sourcebook_, by Paul Sanders;<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; _Letter of Marque_, by J. Andrew Keith<BR><BR>Eris<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:08:42 -0600<BR>From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: A Question for the List<BR><BR>At 05:48 PM 3/13/2001 -0500, you wrote:<BR>&gt;I was looking thru one of my boxes of Traveller stuff, didn't know that I<BR>&gt;had two editions of High Guard, when I ran across something that I<BR>&gt;completely don't remember .&nbsp; Does anyone know anything about "Far Away; The<BR>&gt;Magazine of Speculative Gaming"?&nbsp; I seem to have volume #1 but no others.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Dan<BR><BR>I have issues 1 &amp; 2.&nbsp; Issue 1 had 2 starport articles for Traveller and 1 <BR>adventure (all by the Keith brothers).&nbsp; Issue 2 did not have any Traveller <BR>articles.&nbsp; I don't know about subsequent issues.<BR><BR>Jimmy Simpson<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>"The avalanche has already started.<BR>It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:03:33 -0600<BR>From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Amber Zone Classifications<BR><BR>At 05:19 PM 3/13/2001 -0500, Perry wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Aren't all non-Imperial worlds classified as (at best) Amber<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Zones?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Yes, I remember reading somewhere that TAS (who&nbsp; set&nbsp; Amber&nbsp; Zone<BR>&gt; &gt; status) have a blanket ruling: all non-Imperial worlds should&nbsp; be<BR>&gt; &gt; considered as Amber Zones by Imperial citizens.&nbsp; However, this is<BR>&gt; &gt; not reflected in the maps/stats that TAS produce as TAS&nbsp; services<BR>&gt; &gt; are not restricted to Imperial citizens. (For example, there&nbsp; may<BR>&gt; &gt; be a Swordie merchant who uses TAS ... most Swordie Worlds&nbsp; would<BR>&gt; &gt; *not* he an Amber Zone to *him*.)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Yeah, but the Swordie might automatically consider all *Imperial* worlds<BR>&gt;to be Amber...<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Yes, but the TAS is not a Sword World company.<BR><BR>Jimmy Simpson<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>"The avalanche has already started.<BR>It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:24:11 -0500<BR>From: "C Michael" &lt;swordworlder@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Far &amp; Away Vol. 1<BR><BR>The Traveller Bibliography is a good source for that... or you could visit<BR>http://www.jtas.org<BR><BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Regards Traveller would it be appropriate to post a list somewhere of what<BR>CT and Megatraveller publications I have in case someone wants me to look<BR>something up/check a reference? My CT collection is pretty strong.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: 14 Mar 2001 06:07:22 +0000<BR>From: Paul Campbell &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: latin<BR><BR>On 13 Mar 2001 20:11:10 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>&gt; On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:42:18 -0500 (EST), Paul Campbell<BR>&gt; &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;On 12 Mar 2001 22:30:54 +0100, Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; William Lane wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; anyone know what it means?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; materiari?<BR>&gt;&nbsp; <BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;*ZOT*<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; *SPLORT*<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Nice to know I'm not the only RHODent here...<BR><BR>I'm in recovery.&nbsp; I couldn't keep up with the volume.&nbsp; But now with the<BR>TML 'under my belt' I might try again.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) &lt;kemitix@users.sourceforge.net&gt;<BR>GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24<BR>http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net<BR>jupiter: 6:05am up 63 days, 19:45, 5 users, load average: 0.70, 0.66, 0.33<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:50:48 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Vac Suits and air pressure<BR><BR>John Lambert wrote :-<BR>&gt; DCS is a serious problem, but it does not kill you nearly as quickly<BR>&gt; as breathing vacuum.<BR><BR>Yes, it's one of the quickest ways to die.<BR>As I pointed out in my previous post, unconscious in 15 seconds on average,<BR>then dead after 4-5 minutes from brain hypoxia if not rescued.<BR><BR>I agree that spacers should be able to effectively react to explosive<BR>decompression pretty much in their sleep. They wouldn't otherwise have a<BR>second chance.<BR><BR>&gt; I seem to recall some discussions about using gases other than<BR>&gt; nitrogen (argon?) in undersea work to avoid DCS<BR>&gt; problems (heavier gases than helium are needed to avoid the Donald<BR>&gt; Duck voice).<BR>Helium, hydrogen and argon are the nitrogen alternatives.<BR><BR>Argon is a general anaesthetic at a partial pressure of 7 atmospheres, with<BR>intoxicant effects at 5 (so it's actually worse than nitrogen from that<BR>point of view). It's also relatively dense. Work of breathing could get<BR>quite tiring.<BR><BR>Helium is, theoretically, a general anaesthetic at a partial pressure of 80<BR>atmospheres. Intoxication probably starts around the 50 atmosphere mark.<BR>It's unlikely that people would tolerate that sort of compression anyway,<BR>because of high-pressure nervous syndrome.<BR><BR>Hydrogen, while being poorly lipid soluble, may pose too much of a fire<BR>hazard. It has the tendency to diffuse into unwanted areas, too.<BR><BR>Helium looks optimal for hyperbaric applications. Liquid ventilation is<BR>another alternative.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:50:52 +1100<BR>From: "Robert O'Connor" &lt;robocon@ozemail.com.au&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Fast Drug (was : Re: Question about the Imperial military)<BR><BR>Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>&gt; Actually, the pilot's g-tolerance will be well above those figures<BR>&gt; *without* the tanks. Because in space, you have to change course with<BR>&gt; the main drive.<BR>&lt;balance snipped&gt;<BR><BR>I'm well aware of this, Leonard.<BR>We obviously differ on what constitutes 'tactical' manoeuvre. Attitude<BR>adjustments (as opposed to course changes) that you refer to, as you have<BR>correctly pointed out, may not impose significant g-loads.<BR><BR><BR>Robert O'Connor<BR>Medico, Gamer<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:40:26 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: www.SJGames com is getting slooooow....<BR><BR>Is it just me, or has www.sjgames.com become very slow in the last<BR>week? Loading it takes ages, andeven then, only half the page is<BR>loaded, before the connection is cut, and no data is transfered<BR>anymore...<BR>Everything else works just fine, so its probably not me, but really a<BR>problem on their part.<BR>I trierd the Gurps pages, the INWO pages and the Daily illuminator,<BR>all with the same results...<BR><BR>Volker<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:04:08 +0100<BR>From: Volker &lt;volker@greimann.de&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Question on cloning...<BR><BR>&gt; Many of the things we discussed were not just the<BR>&gt; technical aspects, but also the likely responses to this "ungodly science"<BR>&gt; where man meddles in an area of Divine perogatives.&nbsp; You have merely to<BR>&gt; look about you in today's news casts to see that mankind has not totally<BR>&gt; emerged from the barbarism of religious guided stupidity.<BR>;-)<BR>Getting ready for another religion flamewar, are we?<BR>;-)<BR><BR>But seriously:<BR>I dont have any problems with cloning, but then I also dont believe<BR>in such things like gods, souls or the like. A clone is just like any<BR>other human being. So why some people make a big fuzz about this topic<BR>is beyond me...<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:35:01 +0000<BR>From: Graham Spearing &lt;graham@tux.uklinux.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Getting too old for this caper<BR><BR>Hello,<BR><BR>Lurked about for a while and now surfacing. Such erudite conversation on<BR>the inner logic of the Traveller Universe, and I have to disturb you all<BR>with a really stupid question... I hope someone will help me out - happy<BR>for you to take this offline as you are all Trav guru types.<BR><BR>Anyway...<BR><BR>I've finally taken a more serious look at T4 to run my weekly trav game.<BR>I know, Iknow abit late in the day! I understand that T5 will be similar<BR>to T4 in terms of game mechanics? I currently use MT. I have the T4<BR>errata. Trav rules=errata. I just don't understand what happens in the<BR>following encounter:<BR><BR>Stanley has a 7.5mm Binary Propellant rifle. He decides to shoot a burst<BR>at a TL7 Knorr Container Truck (6.5 displacement tonnes, 45.9 tonnes<BR>mass, 1 armour rating)<BR><BR>Stanley hits.<BR><BR>Rifle damage is 5. This is reduced to 4 due to the huge lorry's armour.<BR>I roll a 1 for location and get superstructure hit. What is the effect<BR>of this? P.59 would indicate that I need to take this off the<BR>superstructure until it reaches it's 'inoperative level'. What would<BR>that be? Has Stanley just destroyed the 45 tonne truck with a blaze of<BR>his rifle?<BR><BR>I just have the feeling I've missed something really obvious.<BR><BR>Sorry about that. Can anyone help?<BR><BR>Thanks<BR><BR>Graham<BR>graham@tux.uklinux.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 14:35:27 +0100<BR>From: Jens Rydholm &lt;jenry023@student.liu.se&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: www.SJGames com is getting slooooow....<BR><BR>Volker wrote:<BR>&gt; Is it just me, or has www.sjgames.com become very slow in the last<BR>&gt; week? Loading it takes ages, andeven then, only half the page is<BR>&gt; loaded, before the connection is cut, and no data is transfered<BR>&gt; anymore...<BR><BR>It works just fine for me. I'm in Sweden, BTW.<BR><BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>| jenry023@student.liu.se&nbsp; | of Linkoeping, Sweden&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>| ICQ UIN: 3844745&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; | (computer science/tech.)&nbsp; |<BR>* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:00:44 -0500<BR>From: hal@buffnet.net<BR>Subject: RE: Amber Zone Classifications<BR><BR>At 11:45 PM 03/12/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt;It would seem to me that the Sword Worlds and Solomani couldn't afford to be<BR>&gt;too belligerent. Imperial trade must be fairly lucrative.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Jeffrey Yin<BR><BR>Hello Jeffrey,<BR>&nbsp; Oddly enough?&nbsp; Amber trade zones are *more* lucrative than normal routes<BR>in that the captain and crew get double wages for the last parsec's worth<BR>of travel in an amber zone.&nbsp; Consequently, if most or not all of the trade<BR>route is in amber zone locations, the income is higher...<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3797<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-zc02.mx.aol.com (rly-zc02.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.2]) by air-zc04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:05:41 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:05:11 -0500<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA04144;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:04:34 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:04:02 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id LAA04075<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:04:02 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:04:02 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103141604.LAA04075@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3797<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD><B>Traveller-digest V1999 #3798</B></TD></TR>
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<TD>3/14/01 10:20:48 PM Pacific Standard Time</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, March 15 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3798<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>RE: Question about the Imperial military<BR>Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR>Re: www.SJGames com is getting slooooow....<BR>Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR>RE: Hardware Wars<BR>Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR>Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR>The Gralyn Assemblage<BR>Landgrab:&nbsp; Arba/Lunion/Spinward Marches [long]<BR>Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR>Re: Landgrab:&nbsp; Arba/Lunion/Spinward Marches [long]<BR>Re: Landgrab:&nbsp; Arba/Lunion/Spinward Marches [long]<BR>Re: The Gralyn Assemblage<BR>Reavers' Deep webring has moved<BR>GT:GF - Boarding Actions?<BR>RE: Amber Zone Classifications<BR>RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3795<BR>RE: The Gralyn Assemblage<BR>RE: GF - Boarding Actions?<BR>RE: The Gralyn Assemblage<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:10:27 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Question about the Imperial military<BR><BR>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>&gt; Peter Trevor writes:<BR>&gt; &gt; The Imperium's&nbsp; navy&nbsp; has&nbsp; three&nbsp; tiers.&nbsp; The&nbsp; top&nbsp; tier&nbsp; is&nbsp; the<BR>&gt; &gt; "Imperial&nbsp; Navy",&nbsp; below&nbsp; that&nbsp; are&nbsp; numerous&nbsp; subsector&nbsp;&nbsp; navies<BR>&gt; &gt; (sometimes called Colonial&nbsp; Navies),&nbsp; and&nbsp; below&nbsp; that&nbsp; are&nbsp; many<BR>&gt; &gt; planetary navies.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Though the planetary navies aren't strictly speaking Imperial.<BR>&gt; My guess is, however, that they are automatically Imperial<BR>&gt; reserves and can be called up by the Imperium at will.<BR>&gt; Alternatively each treaty of annexation/joining set out the<BR>&gt; conditions under which the planetary forces must be made<BR>&gt; available for the Imperium.<BR><BR>I'd&nbsp; go&nbsp; with&nbsp; the&nbsp; latter&nbsp; option&nbsp; (though&nbsp; in&nbsp; many&nbsp; cases&nbsp; the<BR>distinction is unimportant as most planetary navies appear to&nbsp; be<BR>primarily non-jump-capable SDBs and monitors.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Colonial Navies don't always have&nbsp; top-of-the-line ships but have<BR>sufficient<BR>&gt; &gt; number to be a significant force.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; There's an unresolved discrepancy between canonical descriptions<BR>&gt; of colonial navies and the canonical description of how they are<BR>&gt; raised and funded. The following is my take on how to explain<BR>&gt; this discrepancy and is therefor not canon (Note: TLs are GT TLs).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The typical colonial navy<BR>&gt; -------------------------<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>Hmmm ... okay &lt;snag&gt;<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Planetary navies are usually smaller and usually don't have jump<BR>capability<BR>&gt; &gt; (they are&nbsp; primarily&nbsp; for&nbsp; a&nbsp; world's&nbsp; defence).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The character generation system allows a character to join a<BR>&gt; planetary navy and still learn jump-related skills with no<BR>&gt; restrictions. It is propable that most planetary navies have<BR>&gt; _some_ jump-capable vessels. As for their size, their combined<BR>&gt; budgets are 70% of the total military budget with the remaining<BR>&gt; 30% divided equally between the subsector navies and the regular<BR>&gt; IN, so they should be much larger in toto. Much of that will be<BR>&gt; in the form of deep meson sites and orbital fortresses, though.<BR><BR>IIRC the 5FW boardgame had a few jump-capable *named*&nbsp; 'colonial'<BR>squadrons.&nbsp; These had to be placed on the specific world at&nbsp; game<BR>start.&nbsp; The way I interpret this is that *these*&nbsp; squadrons&nbsp; were<BR>jump-capable&nbsp; *planetary*&nbsp; navy&nbsp; ships,&nbsp; all&nbsp;&nbsp; other&nbsp;&nbsp; 'colonial'<BR>squadrons were *subsector* navy ships.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Batrons&nbsp; can&nbsp; be&nbsp; made&nbsp; of&nbsp; battleships&nbsp; (aka&nbsp; dreadnaughts)&nbsp;&nbsp; or<BR>&gt; &gt; battleriders.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Battleriders are usually equal in size to cruisers. While they<BR>&gt; are ton-for-ton tougher than ships of equivalent size, I doubt<BR>&gt; a 30,000 T battlerider could stand in battle against an<BR>&gt; equivalent number of 300,000 T battleships. So a BatRon is<BR>&gt; propably more often made of of carriers than of riders (Even<BR>&gt; though the one canonical example we have claims to be one<BR>&gt; carrier with 7 riders).<BR><BR>You know, this has been bothering me recently.&nbsp; Your idea makes a<BR>lot more sense than the canonical example.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:33:08 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR><BR>Antony Farrell wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Looking at my FFS1 TL11 Dragonfly class air/raft I wouldn't want to stand<BR>&gt; behind it as it has a HEPlaR Thruster generating 2 tons of thrust. Some of<BR>&gt; my other grav vehicles used turbo jets, and many of them used turbines to<BR>&gt; produce power. I think this would make them quite noisy. Certainly I would<BR>&gt; restrict them from built up areas.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Traffic offence, Sonic emissions above a proscribed level.<BR>&gt; The HePlaR thruster on many grav vehicles is particularly frightening.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Antony<BR><BR>This is one thing that has always bothered me about both FFS1 and FFS2; <BR>they have a huge blind spot regarding electric motors.<BR><BR>Here we have powerplants on these things which are typically vastly <BR>overrated for their power draw, yet no one's ever though to just slap on <BR>a decent 3/4 horse electric motor with a prop on the shaft and fly away <BR>silently!<BR><BR>At higher TL's where it's cannon that they have RT superconductors, <BR>electric motors can become extremely light and incredibly efficient.<BR><BR>Electric powered ducted fans, I suspect, will drive LOTS of grav <BR>vehicles, at least near ground level. Some sort of multi-drive regime <BR>would be necessary in many cases (fan at low altitude/speed, turbojet at <BR>higher (these two could be combined into the same drive I would think), <BR>and heplar for extra-atmosphere work.)<BR><BR>I really don't see the authorities allowing fusion drives (heplar) to <BR>operate in an atmosphere all that much...<BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:50:13 -0800<BR>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: www.SJGames com is getting slooooow....<BR><BR>At 12:40 PM 03/14/01 +0100, you wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Is it just me, or has www.sjgames.com become very slow in the last<BR>&gt;week? Loading it takes ages, andeven then, only half the page is<BR>&gt;loaded, before the connection is cut, and no data is transfered<BR>&gt;anymore...<BR><BR>Perhaps the computer has the same virus that has befallen the staff.<BR>- --<BR><BR>Douglas E. Berry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR><BR>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<BR>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:13:06 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR><BR>On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Here we have powerplants on these things which are typically vastly <BR>&gt; overrated for their power draw, yet no one's ever though to just slap on <BR>&gt; a decent 3/4 horse electric motor with a prop on the shaft and fly away <BR>&gt; silently!<BR><BR>Yes, someone has.&nbsp; The RCEG designs the grav belt and grav bike this way,<BR>and silence is mentioned as one of their biggest advantages.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Greg Kettler<BR><BR>"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you<BR>may not actually need an explicit loop exit.&nbsp; The loop will be terminated<BR>automatically at the appropriate moment."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:32:20 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Hardware Wars<BR><BR>I would Love to read it. tell me how to send you costs of copying and<BR>postage. also tell me what those costs are or will be.<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>- -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan [mailto:tiamat@tsoft.com]<BR>Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 3:29 PM<BR>To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Hardware Wars<BR><BR><BR>I found my xerox copies of these articles last night while working on my<BR>novel, which also used to be the setting of my old TU.&nbsp; If anyone wants to<BR>read them I could make copies for postage and copying.<BR><BR>Kiri<BR><BR>****************************************************************************<BR>**<BR>Kiri Aradia Morgan&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93!&nbsp; Thou Art God<BR>tiamat@tsoft.com<BR><BR>"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>Desire is embraced in a dream..."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -- X-JAPAN<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:51:50 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR><BR>Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Here we have powerplants on these things which are typically vastly <BR>&gt;&gt; overrated for their power draw, yet no one's ever though to just slap on <BR>&gt;&gt; a decent 3/4 horse electric motor with a prop on the shaft and fly away <BR>&gt;&gt; silently!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Yes, someone has.&nbsp; The RCEG designs the grav belt and grav bike this way,<BR>&gt; and silence is mentioned as one of their biggest advantages.<BR><BR>Are there design rules in there for this stuff or is it a swag design?<BR><BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:40:29 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR><BR>On 03/14/01 at 09:33 AM,&nbsp; Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Looking at my FFS1 TL11 Dragonfly class air/raft I wouldn't want to stand<BR>&gt;&gt; behind it as it has a HEPlaR Thruster generating 2 tons of thrust. Some of<BR>&gt;&gt; my other grav vehicles used turbo jets, and many of them used turbines to<BR>&gt;&gt; produce power. I think this would make them quite noisy. Certainly I would<BR>&gt;&gt; restrict them from built up areas.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; Traffic offence, Sonic emissions above a proscribed level.<BR>&gt;&gt; The HePlaR thruster on many grav vehicles is particularly frightening.<BR><BR>&gt;This is one thing that has always bothered me about both FFS1 and<BR>&gt;FFS2;&nbsp; they have a huge blind spot regarding electric motors.<BR><BR>True.<BR><BR>&gt;Here we have powerplants on these things which are typically vastly<BR>&gt; overrated for their power draw, yet no one's ever though to just<BR>&gt;slap on&nbsp; a decent 3/4 horse electric motor with a prop on the shaft<BR>&gt;and fly away&nbsp; silently!<BR><BR>3/4 hp?&nbsp; Hum, say a 4dt air/raft would mass about 20 tons?&nbsp; If CG<BR>reduces the gravitational attraction by 99%, you would have to<BR>overcome approximately 200 kg to get lift...right?&nbsp; Ducted fans on<BR>the bottom could handle that easily enough on a world with thin+<BR>atmosphere.&nbsp; It would be quite possible to use ducted fans to get up<BR>into the stratosphere, then turn on the plasma focus for the kick to<BR>orbit.<BR><BR>&gt;Electric powered ducted fans, I suspect, will drive LOTS of grav <BR>&gt;vehicles, at least near ground level. Some sort of multi-drive<BR>&gt;regime&nbsp; would be necessary in many cases (fan at low<BR>&gt;altitude/speed, turbojet at&nbsp; higher (these two could be combined<BR>&gt;into the same drive I would think),&nbsp; and heplar for<BR>&gt;extra-atmosphere work.)<BR><BR>&gt;I really don't see the authorities allowing fusion drives (heplar)<BR>&gt;to&nbsp; operate in an atmosphere all that much...<BR><BR>I think I agree with that.&nbsp; Very thin- atmospheres are going to be a<BR>problem though.&nbsp; In those circumstances reaction drives are going to<BR>have to be rockets and that pretty much means heplar (plasma focus)<BR>or fusion torch.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:56:00 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: The Gralyn Assemblage<BR><BR>Here's another Library type entry for a interstellar state in<BR>Reavers' Deep.&nbsp; Again I drew inspiration from _Reaver's Deep Sector<BR>Sourcebook_, by Paul Sanders (and ultimately the Keith Brothers).<BR><BR>I will be putting these posts online eventually.&nbsp; So I may just post<BR>notices of new url entries on the TML if folks object to the entire<BR>essays being posted here.<BR><BR>BTW, I wouldn't mind some feedback.<BR><BR>&nbsp; -------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Gralyn Assemblage (1119)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (AKA The Gralyn Union)<BR><BR>The Gralyn Assemblage is a small interstellar state in the Drinsaar<BR>Subsector.&nbsp; There are 6 states in the Assemblage Gralyn (1735), an<BR>Aslan enclave on Gralyn, the Droyne occupied moon Askoapoy in the<BR>Gralyn system, former colony Botany Bay (1734), and The Kursk<BR>Republic, one of the independent nations on Khtearle, (1733).&nbsp; The<BR>Assemblage is also a member of the Aikhiy Development Trust which<BR>controls the Aikhiy system.<BR><BR>The Assemblage government is a Council of Five, one each from the<BR>five factions that make up the Assemblage.&nbsp; Under the Council is <BR>an impersonal bureaucracy made up mostly of humans which runs the<BR>government from day to day.<BR><BR>The Assemblage was formed in the latter days of the Long Night<BR>(-312) when the Droyne on Askoapoy and the humans on Gralyn<BR>"assembled" their resources to defend the system from marauding<BR>reavers.&nbsp; The association remained limited until the Aslan invasions<BR>of the Deep when an Aslan enclave was formed on Gralyn and the three<BR>groups combined to defend the system against further incursions.<BR>Botany Bay was added, first as a protectorate then as a full member,<BR>when, after the Solomani Rim War, the corporation running that <BR>colony abandoned the colonists. <BR><BR>The Grayln Assemblage is situated on the Drinsaar Main and benefits<BR>from legal and illegal trade travelling along this 20 world jump-1<BR>main.&nbsp; To trailing are the large population systems of Rintarna and<BR>Lanixon and to spinward are Himalaya, Soloman, and Venice, and most<BR>of the trade between those worlds travels through the Assemblage.<BR><BR>The Aikhiy Development Trust is a joint project between the Gralyn<BR>Assemblage and the independent world of Venice.&nbsp; The Trust's mission<BR>is to develop Aikhiy as an agricultural world supplying food stuffs<BR>to both of the trustees and for sale to surrounding systems.&nbsp; It is<BR>no secret that it is also an opening overture toward enticing<BR>Venice into joining the Assemblage.<BR><BR>&nbsp; -------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:45:17 -0600<BR>From: Roseberry &lt;rosebee@mail.cswnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Landgrab:&nbsp; Arba/Lunion/Spinward Marches [long]<BR><BR>This past November I was greeted with the wonderful news that I had a<BR>brain tumor. Thanks to surgery, 5000 rads of x-rays, and some really<BR>disgusting chemotherapy drugs, I have as of my first post surgery MRI<BR>no recurring cancer growth.<BR><BR>During this period I thought about many things (something by the way<BR>that they try to discourage when one has brain cancer) and one of the<BR>5 million items that went through my mind at the time was that I<BR>really had never seriously contributed anything to the TML. Well<BR>folks, today that changes.<BR>I hereby lay claim to and landgrab of&nbsp; Arba 1721, located in the<BR>Lunion subsector of the Spinward Marches. As part of my claim, I<BR>present preliminary system and world data:<BR><BR>Preliminary System Data [subject to change]<BR><BR>Estimated Age:&nbsp; 6 Billion years<BR>Primary:&nbsp; Al-Khalil&nbsp; K2V<BR><BR>Orbit&nbsp; &nbsp; Name&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; UPP&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Distance in AU&nbsp; &nbsp; in Mkm&nbsp; &nbsp; orbit<BR>ecc.&nbsp; &nbsp; population-facilities<BR>1.5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Ishma&nbsp; &nbsp; YS00000-0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; .55<BR>82.25&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; .02&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; none<BR>1.9&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Arba&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; C200200-C&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; .67&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 100.21<BR>.05&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 550 - class C starport<BR>2.5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Isaak&nbsp; &nbsp; Y230122-C&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; .85&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 127.15<BR>.05&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 70 - research lab*<BR>3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sarai&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Y200133-B&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.0<BR>149.6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; .02&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 30<BR>4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Ibrahim&nbsp; Y500000-0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1.6<BR>239.3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; .07&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; none<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -55&nbsp; Anapy&nbsp; &nbsp; YS00113-0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; .003&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; .275<BR>nil&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 60 - research lab*<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -60&nbsp; Glioma&nbsp; YS00000-0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; .005<BR>.3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nil&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; none<BR>6&nbsp; Hagar's Belt&nbsp; H000100-B&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 777.9<BR>nil&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 30 - em landing site<BR><BR>* Research Lab on Anapy controlled by Sternmetal Horizons<BR>* Research Lab on Isaak controlled by University of Lanth<BR><BR>Note:&nbsp; Orbit numbers for Anapy and Glioma represent distances from<BR>Ibrahim.<BR><BR>Preliminary World Data for Arba [subject to change]<BR><BR>Moons:&nbsp; none<BR>Diameter:&nbsp; 3280km (2029 mls)<BR>Density:&nbsp; 2.7 g-cucm<BR>Mass:&nbsp; .006 Earth<BR>Gravity:&nbsp; .118G<BR>Orbital Period: 231.298 std days<BR>Local Time:&nbsp; uses std Imperial calender- 365 days per year 24 hrs per<BR>day.<BR>Axial Tilt: 0 degrees (tidal locked)<BR>Atmospheric Pressure: nil<BR>Atmospheric Gasses: nil<BR>Hydrosphere: nil<BR>Albedo: .02<BR>Greenhouse Factor: 0<BR>Temperature, Dayside "Arba":&nbsp; 304.034K-87.261F<BR>Temperature, Nightside "Dark Arba":&nbsp; 253.362K-3.948F<BR>Local Ecosystem:&nbsp; no life<BR>Resources:&nbsp; Average<BR><BR>History-frontier wars, colonization failures (see wars), LSP lack of<BR>influence (see wars), etc. (etc.)<BR>[preliminary]<BR>Settlements-the ubiquitus former 3I naval base, the old shut down LSP<BR>mines, current settlement etc.<BR>[preliminary]<BR>Referee Notes [very preliminary]:<BR>The Research Lab on Isaak is, in fact, a listening post for the IISS.<BR>But you already knew that, didn't you (weg). The Research Lab run by<BR>Sternmetal Horizons on Anapy is conducting experiments in physical and<BR>"quantum" chemistry as it may apply to the development of<BR>Nanotechnology. None of the experiments to date have resulted in any<BR>success. Sternmetal management is giving serious consideration to<BR>terminating the project due to lack of profitability.<BR><BR>Bibliography [preliminary]:&nbsp; Gurps First In, Book 6 Scouts, The<BR>Spinward Marches Campaign, Directors Guide to 2300, Andrew M<BR>Vallances' most excellent Landgrab of Ficant (which I am using as an<BR>inspirational guide), David Jaques-Watson's Beowolf Down site<BR>(primarily the Tavonni Rice Paper, for major historical nuggets),<BR>other stuff I can't think of right now.<BR><BR>More data will be available as I have time. If anyone has any ideas<BR>they'd like to share, I'd be most appreciative.<BR><BR>Dan Roseberry (plop 101) Hot Springs Arkansas USA<BR>"I get all these radiation treatments and I still don't look like the<BR>Incredible Hulk" tm.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:07:39 -0600 (CST)<BR>From: Gregory Carl Kettler &lt;gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR><BR>On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Yes, someone has.&nbsp; The RCEG designs the grav belt and grav bike this way,<BR>&gt; &gt; and silence is mentioned as one of their biggest advantages.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Are there design rules in there for this stuff or is it a swag design?<BR><BR>Rules are included in the back of the book.&nbsp; They're an extension of FF&amp;S,<BR>of course. <BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Greg Kettler<BR><BR>"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you<BR>may not actually need an explicit loop exit.&nbsp; The loop will be terminated<BR>automatically at the appropriate moment."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:49:12 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Landgrab:&nbsp; Arba/Lunion/Spinward Marches [long]<BR><BR>- --- Roseberry &lt;rosebee@mail.cswnet.com&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;This past November I was greeted with the wonderful news that I had a<BR>&gt;brain tumor. Thanks to surgery, 5000 rads of x-rays, and some really<BR>&gt;disgusting chemotherapy drugs, I have as of my first post surgery MRI<BR>&gt;no recurring cancer growth.<BR><BR><BR>Well Congrat's on the MRI result.....ouchy for the RAD's and Chemo.....<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~Geek code to follow~<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:53:41 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: Landgrab:&nbsp; Arba/Lunion/Spinward Marches [long]<BR><BR>On 03/14/01 at 04:45 PM,&nbsp; Roseberry &lt;rosebee@mail.cswnet.com&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;This past November I was greeted with the wonderful news that I had<BR>&gt;a brain tumor. Thanks to surgery, 5000 rads of x-rays, and some<BR>&gt;really disgusting chemotherapy drugs, I have as of my first post<BR>&gt;surgery MRI no recurring cancer growth.<BR><BR>Congratulation on the MRI report and good luck.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:06:01 -0700<BR>From: "J. Paul Sanders" &lt;jps64@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: The Gralyn Assemblage<BR><BR>At 01:56 PM 3/14/2001 -0600, you wrote:<BR>&gt;Here's another Library type entry for a interstellar state in<BR>&gt;Reavers' Deep.&nbsp; Again I drew inspiration from _Reaver's Deep Sector<BR>&gt;Sourcebook_, by Paul Sanders (and ultimately the Keith Brothers).<BR><BR>Eris -<BR><BR>Actually - Jimmy Simpson did the majority (90+%) of the work on the <BR>_Reaver's Deep Sector Sourcebook_ - So, credit where credit is due :)<BR><BR>L8r,<BR>Paul<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:03:01 -0500<BR>From: Mark Urbin &lt;urbin@bigfoot.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Reavers' Deep webring has moved<BR><BR>It's now at http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=reaversdeep;action=home<BR><BR>The old one, on the former webring.org, now Y!Webring is for all practical <BR>purposed dead.<BR><BR>Could the owner of http://www.geocities.com/catn_gm/index.html please <BR>contact me.<BR>The email address register to this site through y!webring is not valid and <BR>there is no email link on the page.<BR><BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:56:49 -0500 (EST)<BR>From: Dalton Spence &lt;dalton.spence@hwcn.org&gt;<BR>Subject: GT:GF - Boarding Actions?<BR><BR>The "Boarding Actions" sidebar (GT:GF p.45-47) makes the assumption<BR>that ships will only be boarded by Marines in the aftermath of a<BR>ship-to-ship battle. While in GF this emphasis on the Marine's side<BR>of it is understandable, a more common scenario in Traveller often<BR>involves a ship's crew *resisting* a boarding action by pirates (or<BR>possibly customs agents) who may or may not be as well trained. What<BR>I would like to see is more details about weapons and tactics that<BR>both boarders and defenders would use in such a battle. For example;<BR><BR>1.) Flash-bang grenades [UT2 65] and their TL9 ultra-tech sonic<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; descendants (Warbler [UT 68] and Sonic Stun [UT2 66]) are great<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for disorientling and capturing crews without damaging the ship,<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; but won't work against BD suited opponents or in vacuum.<BR><BR>2.) Similarly, any weapon that is "ship safe" (ie. won't breach any<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; internal bulkeads and risk damaging vital equipment) is totally<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; ineffective against any but the most rudimentary battledress. As<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; a result, on board fire fights can be extremely damgerous to all<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; ship systems and results of missed shots should be played out.<BR><BR>3.) Exactly what is an "assault cutter" and how is a Marine boarding<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; platoon organized and equipped? (I've designed a "covert assault<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; module" to go with a stealth cutter using GT: Starships rules<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; but until I see what's available in the "Modular Cutters" book I<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; won't know if I've been anticipated.)<BR><BR>4.) "War stories" about boarding actions that occurred during gaming<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; sessions to illustrate do's and don'ts. ("So there I was, ...")<BR><BR>- --<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; @==================================================@<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. &lt;dalton.spence@hwcn.org&gt; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium&nbsp;&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; You must meet Steve at the brewery and get the&nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; light bulb. FNORD!&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; @==================================================@<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:44:54 -0600<BR>From: Jimmy Simpson &lt;nimrodd@earthlink.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Amber Zone Classifications<BR><BR>At 12:00 PM 3/13/2001 -0500, you wrote:<BR>&gt;At 11:45 PM 03/12/2001 -0800, you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;It would seem to me that the Sword Worlds and Solomani couldn't afford to be<BR>&gt; &gt;too belligerent. Imperial trade must be fairly lucrative.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Jeffrey Yin<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Hello Jeffrey,<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Oddly enough?&nbsp; Amber trade zones are *more* lucrative than normal routes<BR>&gt;in that the captain and crew get double wages for the last parsec's worth<BR>&gt;of travel in an amber zone.&nbsp; Consequently, if most or not all of the trade<BR>&gt;route is in amber zone locations, the income is higher...<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hal<BR><BR>Income is higher...for the shipping company, not for the people who are <BR>having to pay the hazard pay to get their shipments in or out of that system.<BR><BR>Jimmy Simpson<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nimrodd@mail.com<BR><BR>"The avalanche has already started.<BR>It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:47:59 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3795<BR><BR>GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote&nbsp; :<BR><BR>&gt; and the first GDW game was a boardgame of that invasion (Drang<BR>&gt; Nach Osten).<BR><BR>Loren, perhaps you can clear something up for me.<BR><BR>I always thought that the "Drang Nach Osten" boardgame was originally<BR>produced by a European company, and then picked up by SPI and republished as<BR>"War in the East" ?<BR><BR>Was there another "Drang Nach Osten" or have I just got it completely wrong<BR>?<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:10:13 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: The Gralyn Assemblage<BR><BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; BTW, I wouldn't mind some feedback.<BR><BR>As always, eris, your work is dissappearing into the TML Black Hole of<BR>Quality<BR><BR>But yes, each of these posts so far have been definite keepers.<BR><BR>Frankie<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:17:39 +1300<BR>From: "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: GF - Boarding Actions?<BR><BR>Dalton Spence wrote :<BR><BR>&gt; 3.) Exactly what is an "assault cutter"<BR><BR>A cutter or shuttle designed to be rammed into a hole on a ship you'rre<BR>trying to board.<BR><BR>Also used are "Assault airlocks" heavily armoured tubes with sealing<BR>compounds on the end, that are atttached to the side of a ship, and then the<BR>hull or existing airlocks are cut or blown through.<BR><BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR>&gt; 4.) "War stories" about boarding actions that occurred during gaming<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; sessions to illustrate do's and don'ts. ("So there I was, ...")<BR><BR>While taking Engineering, be very careful where you fire the PGMP.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:18:43 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: RE: The Gralyn Assemblage<BR><BR>On 03/15/01 at 07:10 PM,&nbsp; "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; BTW, I wouldn't mind some feedback.<BR><BR>&gt;As always, eris, your work is dissappearing into the TML Black Hole<BR>&gt;of Quality<BR><BR>LOL! I suppose I should know by now that on this this, no comment is the highest praise. <BR><BR>&gt;But yes, each of these posts so far have been definite keepers.<BR><BR>Well, you might see some more like them shortly, then. &lt;g&gt;&nbsp; I'm planning on doing the Lanyard Colonies next.<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3798<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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<P align=left><FONT color=#0f0f0f face=Arial size=2 PTSIZE="10" BACK="#FFFFFE"><BR><BR>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>Return-Path: &lt;owner-traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>Received: from&nbsp; rly-xb04.mx.aol.com (rly-xb04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.105]) by air-xb02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 01:20:48 -0500<BR>Received: from&nbsp; lists.ient.com (lists.ient.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-xb04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 01:20:20 1900<BR>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id BAA60344;<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 01:19:33 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.ient.com)<BR>Received: by lists.ient.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 15 Mar 2001 01:18:46 -0500<BR>Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; by lists.ient.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id BAA60291<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 01:18:45 -0500 (EST)<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; (envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com)<BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 01:18:45 -0500 (EST)<BR>Message-Id: &lt;200103150618.BAA60291@lists.ient.com&gt;<BR>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3798<BR>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR><BR></FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML><HTML><HEAD><BASE></HEAD>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>Sender:&nbsp; &nbsp; owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR>Reply-to:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller@lists.ient.com<BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; traveller-digest@lists.ient.com<BR></I></TD></TR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></FONT><FONT size=2 PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR>Traveller-digest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thursday, March 15 2001&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Volume 1999 : Number 3799<BR><BR><BR><BR>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>All rights reserved.<BR><BR>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR><BR>This list<BR>RE: GF - Boarding Actions?<BR>Re: This list<BR>RE: GF - Boarding Actions?<BR>Re: This list<BR>Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3798<BR>Something for the Penguin fanciers.<BR>Jump drives and damage.<BR>New to T4 seeking 'Scale' Clarification<BR>Re: Jump drives and damage.<BR>Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR>RE: Jump drives and damage.<BR>Re: GF - Boarding Actions?<BR>Re: Jump drives and damage.<BR>RE: Jump drives and damage.<BR>RE: Jump drives and damage.<BR>RE: Jump drives and damage.<BR>RE: Jump drives and damage.<BR>RE: Jump drives and damage.<BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:22:37 -0700<BR>From: "Johnny" &lt;gamersvault@yucca.net&gt;<BR>Subject: This list<BR><BR>Is this list for Classic Traveller too? <BR><BR>- - Johnny<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:52:09 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: GF - Boarding Actions?<BR><BR>On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>[snip]<BR>&gt; &gt; 4.) "War stories" about boarding actions that occurred during gaming<BR>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; sessions to illustrate do's and don'ts. ("So there I was, ...")<BR>&gt; While taking Engineering, be very careful where you fire the PGMP.<BR><BR>Also, when rescuing hostages, PGMPs are not very useful.<BR><BR>Reminds me of a paraller universe (2300AD, probably Mission Arcturus was<BR>the module name, can't remember. It was some 12 years ago...) where my<BR>character, a French smuggler, had acquired a plasma gun and for some<BR>reason had it on the mission. (We were about thirteen, so big guns<BR>were compulsory...)<BR><BR>This could spoil the module, so beware :<BR>We civilians had a military officer with us, who was to command us. We had<BR>supposedly some knowledge of Kafers, that was probably why we were there.<BR>The mission was to explore a space station taken by Kafers, who had taken<BR>some people hostage.<BR><BR>The plasma gun did show its usefulness twice. First we bumped into some<BR>Kafers in a blocked corridor. Of course, I shot them, but we were too<BR>near, our officer got a shrapnel through the head and died instantly.<BR><BR>We bested most of the aliens and got finally to their last stand-off<BR>point. They had five hostages in a command room. I saw the Kafers in the<BR>middle of the room and blasted them with my gun. Result : three dead<BR>Kafers and two dead hostages...<BR><BR>We were not very successful. I remember the GM stumbling when reading<BR>chapters from the adventure to us. "The hostage says that, no wait, that<BR>hostage is already dead..."<BR><BR>ObTrav:<BR>Always remember the blast radius of your weapons, and try to be sure not<BR>to stand in it...<BR><BR>- -- <BR>+++++++++[&gt;+++++++++&lt;-]&gt;-.&lt;+++++[&gt;+++&lt;-]++&gt;++.&lt;++[&gt;++++&lt;-]+&gt;+.&lt;++[&gt;----<BR>&lt;-]&gt;-.&gt;+++[&gt;++++++++++&lt;-]++&gt;++pare@iki.fi&lt;+[&gt;++++&lt;-]&gt;+.-&gt;+[&gt;++++[&lt;&lt;---&gt;<BR>&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;.&gt;&gt;+++++++[&lt;++++++++++&gt;-]++++[&lt;+++++&gt;-]&lt;-.&gt;[-]&gt;+++[&gt;++[&lt;&lt;&lt;----&gt;&gt;<BR>&lt;&gt;&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;&lt;.+.&gt;[-]++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;.++.[-]&gt;[-]++++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;++.&gt;&gt;++[&gt;++[&gt;-&lt;-]&lt;--]<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:53:36 +0200 (EET)<BR>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" &lt;mvparvia@cc.hut.fi&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: This list<BR><BR>On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Johnny wrote:<BR>&gt; Is this list for Classic Traveller too? <BR><BR>Yes, this is for all Traveller.<BR><BR>CT is probably more prevalent today than some time ago, because of the<BR>reprints.<BR><BR>- -- <BR>+++++++++[&gt;+++++++++&lt;-]&gt;-.&lt;+++++[&gt;+++&lt;-]++&gt;++.&lt;++[&gt;++++&lt;-]+&gt;+.&lt;++[&gt;----<BR>&lt;-]&gt;-.&gt;+++[&gt;++++++++++&lt;-]++&gt;++pare@iki.fi&lt;+[&gt;++++&lt;-]&gt;+.-&gt;+[&gt;++++[&lt;&lt;---&gt;<BR>&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;.&gt;&gt;+++++++[&lt;++++++++++&gt;-]++++[&lt;+++++&gt;-]&lt;-.&gt;[-]&gt;+++[&gt;++[&lt;&lt;&lt;----&gt;&gt;<BR>&lt;&gt;&gt;-]&lt;-]&lt;&lt;.+.&gt;[-]++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;.++.[-]&gt;[-]++++[&lt;++&gt;-]&lt;++.&gt;&gt;++[&gt;++[&gt;-&lt;-]&lt;--]<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 02:19:09 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: GF - Boarding Actions?<BR><BR>- --- "Frank G. Pitt" &lt;frankie@mundens.gen.nz&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; sessions to illustrate do's and don'ts. ("So there I was, ...")<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;While taking Engineering, be very careful where you fire the PGMP.<BR><BR><BR>Funny you should mention that....about 18 years ago, I played a retired Marine..My first character from Mercenaries Generation(the first time our group had access to book 4 at all). The group were free traders fighting off a 400ton Pirate Corsair. "The best defence...yada yada yada", we decide to mount an assualt on the assualting pirate vessel as they board our free trader.<BR><BR>Upshot is, the Ref misreads the weapon chart in Merc's and decides that my character with BD and FGMP-15 does 16D6^3 when it really meant 16D6 'note' 3. The consequences of this were that I had rolled 16D and 12 were 4+ when I fired against an armoured bulkhead into the Corsair bridge, he worked it out at ^3 and the game came to an abrupt end. We laughed for ages about that and the ref never lived it down.....<BR><BR>Antaine.<BR>~IMTU tc++ !tm !tn !t4 !tg tt- !to ru+ ge 3i c jt au+ ls pi+ ta he+ kk hi as+ va+ dr+ ith-- vr- ne- so++ zh-- vi- da sy~ <BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 03:24:35 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: Antaine &lt;Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: This list<BR><BR>- --- "Johnny" &lt;gamersvault@yucca.net&gt;<BR>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;Is this list for Classic Traveller too? <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;- Johnny<BR><BR>You mean to say there is more than one? :oP<BR><BR><BR><BR>==<BR>- ---------------------------------------------<BR>Antaine.<BR>*Certavi et Vici*<BR><BR>~IMTU tc++ !tm !tn !t4 !tg tt- !to ru+ ge 3i c jt au+ ls pi+ ta he+ kk hi as+ va+ dr+ ith-- vr- ne- so++ zh-- vi- da sy~ <BR>- ---------------------------------------------<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________________<BR>The Eclipse lit &amp; art mag online!<BR>http://theeclipse.net/<BR>ISSN 1530-9371<BR><BR>an ARTISAN STUDIO production<BR>http://artisanstudio.org/<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:03:35 EST<BR>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3798<BR><BR>In a message dated 15-Mar-01 12:20:48 AM Central Standard Time, <BR>owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:<BR><BR>&gt; I always thought that the "Drang Nach Osten" boardgame was originally<BR>&gt;&nbsp; produced by a European company, and then picked up by SPI and republished <BR>as<BR>&gt;&nbsp; "War in the East" ?<BR><BR>Far as I know, War in the East by SPI was a in-house design there. If there <BR>were European boardgame companies in 1973, I am unaware of them. DNO was <BR>GDW's first game, the flagship of the Europa Series of WWII boardgames. <BR>Perhaps the name "Europa Series" made you think they were originally produced <BR>in Europe?<BR><BR>LKW<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:18:33 -0600<BR>From: Leslie Bates &lt;lesbates@minn.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Something for the Penguin fanciers.<BR><BR>Something I found during a search for "all your base" stuff. <BR><BR>http://www.eskimobob.com/episodes.cgi?episode=13&nbsp; &nbsp; <BR><BR>Eskimo Bob Episode 13: The Wrath of the Penguin<BR><BR><BR>=======================================================<BR>Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.<BR>=======================================================<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:13:20 -0600<BR>From: "Donavan L" &lt;dlambertus@dtgnet.com&gt;<BR>Subject: Jump drives and damage.<BR><BR>As a newbie to the list, I have my first dumb questions.&nbsp; Now, they've<BR>probably been asked a few hundred times, but -<BR><BR>How long does it take to intiate a jump?<BR><BR>What happens if a jump drive loses power or is shut off after the the ship<BR>has already jumped?<BR><BR>What happens if a ship's power plant is damaged after a jump is intiated?<BR><BR>Is there any way to stop a ship from jumping once the process is begun?<BR><BR><BR>Thanks in advance.&nbsp; I will now retreat to cover and wait for the fruit<BR>throwing to begin. :)<BR><BR>Donavan L.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:36:22 +0000<BR>From: Graham Spearing &lt;graham@tux.uklinux.net&gt;<BR>Subject: New to T4 seeking 'Scale' Clarification<BR><BR>Hello,<BR><BR>Lurked about for a while and now surfacing. Such erudite conversation on<BR>the inner logic of the Traveller Universe, and I have to disturb you all<BR>with a really stupid question... I hope someone will help me out - happy<BR>for you to take this offline as you are all Trav guru types.<BR><BR>Anyway...<BR><BR>I've finally taken a more serious look at T4 to run my weekly trav game.<BR>I know, Iknow abit late in the day! I understand that T5 will be similar<BR>to T4 in terms of game mechanics? I currently use MT. I have the T4<BR>errata. Trav rules=errata. I just don't understand what happens in the<BR>following encounter:<BR><BR>Stanley has a 7.5mm Binary Propellant rifle. He decides to shoot a burst<BR>at a TL7 Knorr Container Truck (6.5 displacement tonnes, 45.9 tonnes<BR>mass, 1 armour rating)<BR><BR>Stanley hits.<BR><BR>Rifle damage is 5. This is reduced to 4 due to the huge lorry's armour.<BR>I roll a 1 for location and get superstructure hit. What is the effect<BR>of this? P.59 would indicate that I need to take this off the<BR>superstructure until it reaches it's 'inoperative level'. What would<BR>that be? Has Stanley just destroyed the 45 tonne truck with a blaze of<BR>his rifle?<BR><BR>I just have the feeling I've missed something really obvious.<BR><BR>Sorry about that. Can anyone help?<BR><BR>Thanks<BR><BR>Graham<BR>graham@tux.uklinux.net<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:42:36 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: Re: Jump drives and damage.<BR><BR>On 03/15/01 at 10:13 AM,&nbsp; "Donavan L" &lt;dlambertus@dtgnet.com&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;As a newbie to the list, I have my first dumb questions.&nbsp; Now,<BR>&gt;they've probably been asked a few hundred times, but -<BR><BR>Hello and welcome to the list.&nbsp; First, a few acronyms that you're<BR>going to be seeing:<BR><BR>IMTU = In My Traveller Universe<BR>OTU = Official Traveller Universe<BR>CT = Classic Traveller<BR>MT = Megatraveller<BR>TNE = Traveller: The New Era<BR>T4 = Mark Miller's Traveller<BR>T5 = Mark Miller's *next* Traveller (currently under development)<BR>GT = GURPS Traveller<BR>LBB = Little Black Books of CT<BR><BR>I'm only going to use a couple, but you'll be seeing the others soon<BR>enough.&nbsp; I'll let others tell you about the special terms, phrases,<BR>and inside jokes. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;How long does it take to intiate a jump?<BR><BR>IMTU, roughly 1 minute is needed to *initiate* a jump.&nbsp; Doing all<BR>the things that it takes to get to that point takes about a half<BR>hour.&nbsp; <BR><BR>During the half hour preceding jump, the capacitors have to be<BR>charged, the course computed, and the jump grid tested.<BR><BR>Once the crew is ready to jump you actually initiate it.&nbsp; IMTU, this<BR>is a four step process<BR><BR>(1) turning on the jump grid by the Engineer, "Grid on and hot!"<BR><BR>(2) starting the release of "injection mass" (most of the jump fuel)<BR>by the Engineer, "Mass Released!&nbsp; Bubble forming!"<BR><BR>(3) locking the destination target by the Astrogator, "Target<BR>sighted, verified and locked...Go for Jump!"<BR><BR>(4) and "hitting the button" by the Pilot or Captain, "Course<BR>confirmed, bubble up. Insertion!"<BR><BR>...up to hitting the button the crew can back out if any of the<BR>prior tasks didn't go right, but after hitting that button the ship<BR>is gone, irretrievably committed.<BR><BR>&gt;What happens if a jump drive loses power or is shut off after the<BR>&gt;the ship has already jumped?<BR><BR>IMTU, nothing.&nbsp; Once the ship has jumped the jump drive is turned<BR>off.&nbsp; The "jump grid" built into the hull has to stay powered to<BR>maintain the protective bubble, though, if you want to survive the<BR>next week.<BR><BR>&gt;What happens if a ship's power plant is damaged after a jump is<BR>&gt;intiated?<BR><BR>IMTU, that depends on how much power is lost.&nbsp; Completely, losing<BR>the grid in Jump Space leads to premature bubble collapse and the<BR>rapid destruction of the ship and death of all aboard her.<BR><BR>&gt;Is there any way to stop a ship from jumping once the process is<BR>&gt;begun?<BR><BR>I think this is both OTU and IMTU...prior to actually jumping, yes,<BR>but after you "hit the button" that actually inserts you into<BR>jumpspace, no.&nbsp; Once you're *in*, your in for a week (more or less).<BR><BR>IMTU, it's a week because it takes that long for the interface<BR>between jump and normal space (the edge of the jump bubble) to<BR>stabilize.&nbsp; It's the unstable interface that is destructive, and you<BR>need that bubble to keep the instability away from the ship's hull.<BR>Anything that hits that interface before it stabilizes is going to<BR>precipitate back into real space, but as a spray of particles.<BR><BR>Oh, and IMTU, the jump itself takes place in plank time, ie. as<BR>close to 0 as you can get.&nbsp; The state the universe along a<BR>straight line path from point A to point B at that instant is what<BR>determines things like "jump shadows" and "mass interference."<BR>After that instant, the real universe continues for a week and has<BR>*no* effect on the ship, until after it emerges.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Imagine you jump to point B, an empty area of space *now*, but a<BR>week later a chunk of matter has orbited into point B...nasty!&nbsp; One<BR>of the jobs of the Astrogator is to insure that isn't going to<BR>happen, and space is very, *very* big so it's not that hard a task<BR>if you've got good charts, but accidents can happen.&nbsp; <BR><BR>So, what happens if you would be emerging inside a mass?&nbsp; IMTU, the<BR>smaller mass is violently bounced to the 10 diameter of the other.<BR>For in game purposes, IMTU, the ship takes internal *and* external<BR>hits equal to the size number of the object with which it would have<BR>intersected.&nbsp; This generally means a ship with many systems damaged,<BR>disabled or destroyed, and in danger of crashing into the massive<BR>object doing even more damage.<BR><BR>&gt;Thanks in advance.&nbsp; I will now retreat to cover and wait for the<BR>&gt;fruit throwing to begin. :)<BR><BR>You're right these questions have been asked a few times before, and<BR>they often *do* lead to vigorous discussions. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:00:43 -0700<BR>From: Bruce Johnson &lt;johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)<BR><BR>Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Yes, someone has.&nbsp; The RCEG designs the grav belt and grav bike this way,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; and silence is mentioned as one of their biggest advantages.<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Are there design rules in there for this stuff or is it a swag design?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Rules are included in the back of the book.&nbsp; They're an extension of FF&amp;S,<BR>&gt; of course. <BR>&gt;<BR><BR>Gonna have to look for that now...<BR><BR><BR>- -- <BR>Bruce Johnson<BR>University of Arizona<BR>College of Pharmacy<BR>Information Technology Group<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:08:55 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Jump drives and damage.<BR><BR>&gt;As a newbie to the list, I have my first dumb questions.&nbsp; Now, they've<BR>&gt;probably been asked a few hundred times, but -<BR><BR>Only dumb question is the one that never gets asked. dont know about a few<BR>hunderd times but yes they did discuss it a few months ago. Ill do my best<BR>to pass the info to you that i know.<BR><BR>&gt;How long does it take to intiate a jump?<BR><BR>Well they never covered this. IMTU it takes about 5 mins for the jump drives<BR>to build up the power to initiate the jump. No need to worry about<BR>Navigation because the crew would have worked that out on the manuvering out<BR>to 100 Diameters.<BR><BR><BR>&gt;What happens if a jump drive loses power or is shut off after the the ship<BR>&gt;has already jumped?<BR><BR>there was&nbsp; a lot of talk about this. if i remember correctly there were a<BR>couple of diffrent things being said. One thing tossed about was that the<BR>ship would "Drop" out of jump space. Another was that the Lanthium grid<BR>would drop and no longer protect the crew to the mind destroying properties<BR>of Jump space.<BR><BR>IMTU Nothing would happen see the jump Drive Creates the "window" for the<BR>Ship to "jump" Through to get to Jump space and then pushes the ship through<BR>the "Window". Once on the Other side the Lanthium Grid is all the ship<BR>needs. it protects the crew from the mind altering effects of Jump space.<BR>The Lanthium Grid is Powered by the power plant which is a seperate power<BR>source over the Jump Drive. <BR><BR>Now one thing should be mentioned. IMTU half of the required jump fuel is<BR>used to "Jump" Into jump space. The rest of the required jump fuel is used<BR>to "Jump" out of space. If the Jump Drive is damaged or Destroyed then it is<BR>possable for the ship to become Trapped in jump space. when the ship runs<BR>out of fuel for the power plant the Lanthium Grid drops and the crews minds<BR>are destroyed. So Jump Drives are Fussed over pieces of equipment IMTU.<BR>engineering sections will be secured areas even on a small 200 ton<BR>frieghter. and yes before you ask there are ships floating around in jump<BR>space with dead crews.<BR><BR>&gt;What happens if a ship's power plant is damaged after a jump is intiated?<BR><BR>IMTU see above. However i saw that in Others TU's they powered the Lanthium<BR>grid off the Jump Drive. <BR><BR>&gt;Is there any way to stop a ship from jumping once the process is begun?<BR><BR>IMTU you just stop the process at some point prior to actually "jumping"<BR>through the "Window". I allow a "core" type dump that will do like an<BR>emergancy scram on the Jump drive. basically it just drops the entire jump<BR>drive off line and causes the "jump window" to collapse. This of course is<BR>an emergancy situation type thing. the Crew of the Mahina Tiare just<BR>experianced one of these by default. they were trying to jump with a jump<BR>drive who has not had an annual in 5 years. So the Drive hada&nbsp; hiccup and<BR>the back up systems Did the Dump. sort of left them looking silly in front<BR>of a scout who happened to be in the area. <BR><BR><BR>&gt;Thanks in advance.&nbsp; I will now retreat to cover and wait for the fruit<BR>&gt;throwing to begin. :)<BR><BR>We never throw fruit 8P to messy to clean up after.<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:23:54 -0500<BR>From: "Daniel Phelps" &lt;phelpsd@gate.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: GF - Boarding Actions?<BR><BR>Was written:<BR><BR>&gt;Always remember the blast radius of your weapons, and try to be sure not<BR>&gt;to stand in it...<BR><BR><BR>Also never stand behind a dwarf carrying a pazerfaust.<BR><BR>Dan<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:45:18 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: Jump drives and damage.<BR><BR>On 15 Mar 2001, at 14:42, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR><BR>&lt;snip of nice write-up of IHTU jump process&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; &gt;Thanks in advance.&nbsp; I will now retreat to cover and wait for the<BR>&gt; &gt;fruit throwing to begin. :)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; You're right these questions have been asked a few times before, and<BR>&gt; they often *do* lead to vigorous discussions. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Or at least copious saving of excellent posts for later digestion... :)<BR><BR>Rob<BR>- ---<BR>Rob Davenport 0301 C438875-B&nbsp; 713<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:48:51 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Jump drives and damage.<BR><BR>Eris,<BR><BR>You and i handle this very simularly. would you mind if i throw a few<BR>questions at you?<BR><BR><BR>&gt;Once the crew is ready to jump you actually initiate it.&nbsp; IMTU, this<BR>&gt;is a four step process<BR><BR>&gt;(1) turning on the jump grid by the Engineer, "Grid on and hot!"<BR><BR>&gt;(2) starting the release of "injection mass" (most of the jump fuel)<BR>&gt;by the Engineer, "Mass Released!&nbsp; Bubble forming!"<BR><BR>&gt;(3) locking the destination target by the Astrogator, "Target<BR>&gt;sighted, verified and locked...Go for Jump!"<BR><BR>Are you saying the Navigator/Astrogator can not actually lay in the course<BR>till the Jump Bubble forms? if so is he targeting his destination through<BR>the Jump bubble? or am i miss reading this and he just confirming to the<BR>captian/bridge crew that the course is plotted and locked into the<BR>Navigation system?<BR><BR>(&gt;4) and "hitting the button" by the Pilot or Captain, "Course<BR>&gt;confirmed, bubble up. Insertion!"<BR><BR>&gt;...up to hitting the button the crew can back out if any of the<BR>&gt;prior tasks didn't go right, but after hitting that button the ship<BR>&gt;is gone, irretrievably committed.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>IMTU, it's a week because it takes that long for the interface<BR>between jump and normal space (the edge of the jump bubble) to<BR>stabilize.&nbsp; It's the unstable interface that is destructive, and you<BR>need that bubble to keep the instability away from the ship's hull.<BR>Anything that hits that interface before it stabilizes is going to<BR>precipitate back into real space, but as a spray of particles.<BR><BR>Interesting. So could a ship artificially Stabalize this and drop out of<BR>jump early? <BR><BR><BR>&gt;Oh, and IMTU, the jump itself takes place in plank time, ie. as<BR>&gt;close to 0 as you can get.&nbsp; The state the universe along a<BR>&gt;straight line path from point A to point B at that instant is what<BR>&gt;determines things like "jump shadows" and "mass interference."<BR>&gt;After that instant, the real universe continues for a week and has<BR>&gt;*no* effect on the ship, until after it emerges.<BR><BR>Are you saying that for the crew no time passes of very little? and if so<BR>would crews live what would seem to be much longer lives than Downporters?<BR>also if that is the case would there be a much more abundance of "family"<BR>type ships where the crew was or are an entire family?&nbsp; <BR><BR><BR>&gt;So, what happens if you would be emerging inside a mass?&nbsp; IMTU, the<BR>&gt;smaller mass is violently bounced to the 10 diameter of the other.<BR>&gt;For in game purposes, IMTU, the ship takes internal *and* external<BR>&gt;hits equal to the size number of the object with which it would have<BR>&gt;intersected.&nbsp; This generally means a ship with many systems damaged,<BR>&gt;disabled or destroyed, and in danger of crashing into the massive<BR>&gt;object doing even more damage.<BR><BR>Hmm well popping back out to 10 diameters is much nicer than popping up<BR>inside of something and trying to occupy the same space as something else 8P<BR>however big enough object and your talking a major ouch. What about say<BR>popping into a system with a High Ship traffic? lets say you were going to<BR>capital. now this i am sure is a planet witha&nbsp; very large ship traffic<BR>coming and going. when your astrogator "targets" his destitnation is there<BR>some sort of way the crew notifies the traffic control they are inbound so<BR>that ships stay clear of the Jump in point?<BR><BR>these are things that popped into my head. and truth is i would be<BR>interested in hear what you got to say for possable addition to MTU.<BR><BR>Hasta<BR><BR>&gt;Thanks in advance.&nbsp; I will now retreat to cover and wait for the<BR>&gt;fruit throwing to begin. :)<BR><BR>You're right these questions have been asked a few times before, and<BR>they often *do* lead to vigorous discussions. &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:50:27 -0500<BR>From: "Rob Davenport" &lt;rgd@ohio.voyager.net&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Jump drives and damage.<BR><BR>On 15 Mar 2001, at 13:08, William Lane wrote:<BR>&gt; and yes before you ask there are ships floating around in jump<BR>&gt; space with dead crews.<BR><BR>Well that just begs the question (for me at least) - can one run<BR>into these Marie Celestials while in j-space IYTU?&nbsp; <BR><BR>(I'd guess canonically the answer is no, but your description <BR>gave me a mental picture of a crew, part way into the week long<BR>jump when a ghostly derelict slowly moves into their 'vicinity',<BR>and all the interesting things they might find aboard - and/or<BR>have to fend off until they reenter n-space.&nbsp; Evocative maybe,<BR>but not likely possible given canon descriptions.)<BR><BR><BR><BR>Rob<BR>- ---<BR>Rob Davenport 0301 C438875-B&nbsp; 713<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:16:04 -0800<BR>From: William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Jump drives and damage.<BR><BR>On 15 Mar 2001, at 13:08, William Lane wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; and yes before you ask there are ships floating around in jump<BR>&gt;&gt; space with dead crews.<BR><BR>&gt;Well that just begs the question (for me at least) - can one run<BR>&gt;into these Marie Celestials while in j-space IYTU?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Well as you stipulated canonically the answer is no. that said this is MTU<BR>so here is the way some things work. The Imperium has never developed the<BR>technology to actually see anything beyond the Jump bubble. now there is<BR>higher tech that can allow this to be done. i have always pictured jump<BR>space as another diminsion like that shown in Babylon 5. you have a set<BR>coordinates you are flying to. any deviation in course and you could become<BR>lost. Higher the tech better chance of being able to manuver about a bit and<BR>still maintain your lock on your jump out coordinates. this has lead to some<BR>interesting adventures for those who had the technology. I figure with as<BR>much handwavium that is used at times in traveller i am allowed a little<BR>creativity 8P<BR><BR>On a side note the loss of power to the power plant once happened to a crew<BR>of players. 2 of the players we sujected to the mind altering effects of<BR>jump Space. Ill say this the 2 players role played excellently and truely<BR>created a Feel that they had become homicidal maniacs. they were bent on the<BR>destruction of the ship and they succeeded in destroying the jump drive of<BR>the ship prior to Jump out. so the Crew of the "Dawn Treader" (yes i know<BR>but i did not name the ship 8P) became trapped in Jump space. unfortunatly<BR>she is still there.<BR><BR>later on when players were playing as evarians they saw their old ship in a<BR>very much ghost ship sort of way.<BR><BR>again i am not totally canonical. I like to allow somethings so i can have<BR>fun and interesting adventures.<BR><BR>anyway hasta<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:48:50 -0000<BR>From: "Trevor, Peter" &lt;Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: Jump drives and damage.<BR><BR>Rob Davenport wrote:<BR>&gt; Well that just begs the question (for me at least) - can one run<BR>&gt; into these Marie Celestrials while in j-space IYTU?<BR><BR>There's always "Fated Voyage" (Challenge 46) for the OTU position.<BR><BR>Regards PLST<BR>(aka Stalin)<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:56:11 -0600<BR>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>Subject: RE: Jump drives and damage.<BR><BR>On 03/15/01 at 01:48 PM,&nbsp; William Lane &lt;wlane@Asera.com&gt; said:<BR><BR>&gt;You and i handle this very simularly. would you mind if i throw a<BR>&gt;few questions at you?<BR><BR>Not at all.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Once the crew is ready to jump you actually initiate it.&nbsp; IMTU, this<BR>&gt;&gt;is a four step process<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;(1) turning on the jump grid by the Engineer, "Grid on and hot!"<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;(2) starting the release of "injection mass" (most of the jump fuel)<BR>&gt;&gt;by the Engineer, "Mass Released!&nbsp; Bubble forming!"<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;(3) locking the destination target by the Astrogator, "Target<BR>&gt;&gt;sighted, verified and locked...Go for Jump!"<BR><BR>&gt;Are you saying the Navigator/Astrogator can not actually lay in the<BR>&gt;course till the Jump Bubble forms? if so is he targeting his<BR>&gt;destination through the Jump bubble? or am i miss reading this and<BR>&gt;he just confirming to the captian/bridge crew that the course is<BR>&gt;plotted and locked into the Navigation system?<BR><BR>The Astrogator (or Navigator if you're a CT purist &lt;g&gt;) can set up<BR>the course prior to jump, but that just puts the ship on<BR>approximately the right course.&nbsp; Almost anyone can do this, even<BR>computer programs, but to get an exact course requires a sighting<BR>right at the moment of jump.<BR><BR>See, I'm using the "jump fuel" for two things.&nbsp; Acting to inflate a<BR>bubble of space around the ship (anchored by the jump grid, btw) is<BR>one use.&nbsp; The other is to expand an artifically created wormhole<BR>through which the ship will jump.&nbsp; The wormhole's exact shape can't<BR>be predicted prior to its creating, and proper placement of the ship<BR>inside is required to put the ship at its desired destination.&nbsp; The<BR>Astrogator sights down the mouth of the wormhole that just before<BR>the ship is inserted, locking the *exact* course needed during this<BR>60 second window.&nbsp; A mistake here can lead to disasterous misjumps.<BR><BR>&gt;(&gt;4) and "hitting the button" by the Pilot or Captain, "Course<BR>&gt;&gt;confirmed, bubble up. Insertion!"<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;...up to hitting the button the crew can back out if any of the<BR>&gt;&gt;prior tasks didn't go right, but after hitting that button the ship<BR>&gt;&gt;is gone, irretrievably committed.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;IMTU, it's a week because it takes that long for the interface<BR>&gt;&gt;between jump and normal space (the edge of the jump bubble) to<BR>&gt;&gt;stabilize.&nbsp; It's the unstable interface that is destructive, and<BR>&gt;&gt;you need that bubble to keep the instability away from the ship's<BR>&gt;&gt;hull.&nbsp; Anything that hits that interface before it stabilizes is<BR>&gt;&gt;going to precipitate back into real space, but as a spray of<BR>&gt;&gt;particles.<BR><BR>&gt;Interesting. So could a ship artificially Stabalize this and drop<BR>&gt;out of jump early? <BR><BR>In theory, yes.&nbsp; Because some jumps naturally end a few hours<BR>earlier than others people have been trying to figure out how to<BR>artifically cause this to happen ever since Jump Drives were<BR>invented.&nbsp; However, in 5,000 years no one has figured out how to<BR>successfully do it.&nbsp; There may be decades between new ideas, or new<BR>generations of researchers, inspire renewed research, but people<BR>still try, and sometimes die trying.&nbsp; Objectively, however, science<BR>is no closer to an answer in 1110 (or 1200, or 0 &lt;g&gt;) than it ever<BR>was.&nbsp; <BR><BR>Plot hook:&nbsp; Scientists charters the PC's ship for some jump space<BR>research, bring devices aboard, the ship goes into jump and *then*<BR>the PC's realize just what it is the scientists are going to<BR>attempt. Results, to taste! &lt;g&gt;<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;Oh, and IMTU, the jump itself takes place in plank time, ie. as<BR>&gt;&gt;close to 0 as you can get.&nbsp; The state of the universe along a<BR>&gt;&gt;straight line path from point A to point B at that instant is what<BR>&gt;&gt;determines things like "jump shadows" and "mass interference."<BR>&gt;&gt;After that instant, the real universe continues for a week and has<BR>&gt;&gt;*no* effect on the ship, until after it emerges.<BR><BR>&gt;Are you saying that for the crew no time passes of very little? and<BR>&gt;if so would crews live what would seem to be much longer lives than<BR>&gt;Downporters? also if that is the case would there be a much more<BR>&gt;abundance of "family" type ships where the crew was or are an<BR>&gt;entire family?&nbsp; <BR><BR>The time inside jump space is still a week for the crew, and a week<BR>(more or less) has passed in real space when they emerge too.&nbsp; It's<BR>just that the *jump* took virtually no time.&nbsp; After the action of<BR>the jump the crew was still stuck in Jump space for a week.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;So, what happens if you would be emerging inside a mass?&nbsp; IMTU, the<BR>&gt;&gt;smaller mass is violently bounced to the 10 diameter of the other.<BR>&gt;&gt;For in game purposes, IMTU, the ship takes internal *and* external<BR>&gt;&gt;hits equal to the size number of the object with which it would have<BR>&gt;&gt;intersected.&nbsp; This generally means a ship with many systems damaged,<BR>&gt;&gt;disabled or destroyed, and in danger of crashing into the massive<BR>&gt;&gt;object doing even more damage.<BR><BR>&gt;Hmm well popping back out to 10 diameters is much nicer than<BR>&gt;popping up inside of something and trying to occupy the same space<BR>&gt;as something else 8P however big enough object and your talking a<BR>&gt;major ouch. What about say popping into a system with a High Ship<BR>&gt;traffic? lets say you were going to capital. now this i am sure is<BR>&gt;a planet witha&nbsp; very large ship traffic coming and going. when your<BR>&gt;astrogator "targets" his destitnation is there some sort of way the<BR>&gt;crew notifies the traffic control they are inbound so that ships<BR>&gt;stay clear of the Jump in point?<BR><BR>Nope, you just have to count on space being really, really big and<BR>consequently pretty empty.&nbsp; When jumping into busy systems, *I'd*<BR>come in much further out, even further out than 100 dia. just to<BR>make sure I had plenty of empty space.&nbsp; Actually, IMTU, I have ships<BR>routinely emerging 12 to 24 hours away from mainworlds at 1 g.&nbsp; I<BR>want them to have to spend enough time in real space travelling in<BR>and out from jump points to make them *possible* targets for<BR>unethical merchants (and let's not start the p debate again &lt;g&gt;).<BR><BR>Eris<BR>- -- <BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>eris@pcola.gulf.net&nbsp; &nbsp; using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3799<BR>***********************************<BR><BR>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR><BR>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR><BR>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".<BR>If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>"local-traveller":<BR><BR>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR><BR>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>in the commands above with "traveller".<BR><BR>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR></I></I></S><XMP></XMP>
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